Navy JAG Andrew Williams Resigns Over Torture
Navy JAG Andrew Williams Resigns Over Torture
Lt. Cmdr. Andrew Williams, a JAG officer with the U.S. Naval Reserve, recently resigned his commission over the alleged use of torture by the United States and the destruction of video tapes said to contain instances of that torture.
As ThinkProgress reported in December, Brigadier General Thomas W. Hartmann, the legal adviser at Guantanamo Bay, repeatedly refused to call the hypothetical waterboarding of an American pilot by the Iranian military torture.
Explaining his resignation in a letter to his Gig Harbor, WA, newspaper — the Peninsula Gateway — Williams said Hartmann’s testimony was “the final straw”:
The final straw for me was listening to General Hartmann, the highest-ranking military lawyer in charge of the military commissions, testify that he refused to say that waterboarding captured U.S. soldiers by Iranian operatives would be torture.
His testimony had just sold all the soldiers and sailors at risk of capture and subsequent torture down the river. Indeed, he would not rule out waterboarding as torture when done by the United States and indeed felt evidence obtained by such methods could be used in future trials.
Thank you, General Hartmann, for finally admitting the United States is now part of a long tradition of torturers going back to the Inquisition.
In the middle ages, the Inquisition called waterboarding “toca” and used it with great success. In colonial times, it was used by the Dutch East India Company during the Amboyna Massacre of 1623.
Waterboarding was used by the Nazi Gestapo and the feared Japanese Kempeitai. In World War II, our grandfathers had the wisdom to convict Japanese Officer Yukio Asano of waterboarding and other torture practices in 1947, giving him 15 years hard labor.
Waterboarding was practiced by the Khmer Rouge at the infamous Tuol Sleng prison. Most recently, the U.S. Army court martialed a soldier for the practice in 1968 during the Vietnam conflict.
General Hartmann, following orders was not an excuse for anyone put on trial in Nuremberg, and it will not be an excuse for you or your superiors, either.
Despite the CIA and the administration attempting to cover up the practice by destroying interrogation tapes, in direct violation of a court order, and congressional requests, the truth about torture, illegal spying on Americans and secret renditions is coming out.
Williams’ resignation follows on the heels of several high profile issues relating to the JAG corps. In 2006, Lt. Cmdr. Charles Swift was passed over for promotion and forced out of the Navy after he vigorously defended Salim Ahmed Hamdan, Osama bin Laden’s driver. And just this month, the Bush administration planned to take control of the promotion system for military lawyers, a plan which was dropped due to the uproar it caused in the military and in Congress.
– t-dub
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It is time to pray that Light be brought to Truth, and that Justice wield her mighty sword.
December 29th, 2007 at 9:13 amThe truth is prevailing and coming out and the walls of Bush's infamous House of Horrors is coming out - making this country and it's soldiers much less safe and now subject to this same brand of torture. Thanks, Shrub!
December 29th, 2007 at 9:19 amHi Brise! Amen to that! Justice is wielding her mighty sword as seen by us with the daily scandals going up the chain of command. However, now that we know there have been many breaches of the law: both federal and international, do we have anyone other than Wexler with the spine required to do something about it in Congress?
Certainly Bush has compromised the other co-equal branch (DOJ) with his lapdog, Mukasey, in position.
I think the avalanche of sentiment which will put Bush and Cheney behind bars won't take a foothold until Bush is about to leave office, unfortunately.
December 29th, 2007 at 9:21 amI just happened to catch the CNN ticker last night which said something about the state of Vermont regarding the arrest of Bush and Cheney for "war crimes" if they step foot in that state; ergo, it may be the only state they have not visited. I'd love to learn more about that and see it on the MSM.
December 29th, 2007 at 9:22 amSo now will the soldier who was court-martialed in 1968 be granted a pardon, because what he did is not torture according to this administration?
Suspension of habeus corpus, diminishing civil liberties, illegal wiretapping, renditions at secret foreign prisons, use of torture, denying health insurance to children, and rewarding Blackwater for operating above the law at home and abroad...nothing surprises me about this administration anymore...
What scares me is for how long these ill effects will be suffered by this nation even after the perpetrators are out of office....
December 29th, 2007 at 9:25 amThat's right, Frank. It's called courage.
As opposed to the whiney-ass titty-baby right-winger cowardice that trashes America to "save it" from the "scary terrists".
December 29th, 2007 at 9:37 amYou’d rather hold on to your high ideals and die in the process than face the facts and do whatever it takes to protect ourselves and our children.
Comment by Frank M — December 29, 2007 @ 9:26 am
Enlist, Fank, or stop your antiAmerican blather. You are nothing in this country. You've abandoned the Constitution and your citizenship. You will go on trial as well as the traitors that have stolen our government. You've proven your rank, unamerican cowardice, watch your back!
December 29th, 2007 at 9:38 amFrank M is one of those "tough guys" sitting behind his/her keyboard, either man-up Frank and join the service like I did or STFU.
December 29th, 2007 at 9:40 amFrank, so show trials and oppression of political opponents is ok if it protects our kids, right?
December 29th, 2007 at 9:47 amFrank, you think waterboarding is fine. Where do you draw the line? Or do you?
December 29th, 2007 at 9:52 amIf cutting someone's digits off will get them to talk (again, doing whatever it takes), should we do that? What about cutting off entire limbs?
Or do you not actually believe we should do whatever it takes?
I’m not going to enlist as it would hurt my chances for survival.
December 29th, 2007 at 9:52 amFrank M.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow, you admit you're a coward, good. You're nothing but a fascist wannabe.
Boohoo. The fact is that the people in this country want to feel secure and this administration is giving them security by any means necessary. It’s you and guys like this who have a problem with security. You’d rather hold on to your high ideals and die in the process than face the facts and do whatever it takes to protect ourselves and our children.
Comment by Frank M — December 29, 2007 @ 9:26 am
Cowards like you are leading to the downfall of this country not any Islamic terrorists. We don't all need to feel "secure" in the way you do and most of us are courageous enough to harness our fears so that we can keep our high ideals. You are a pathethic example of a man and an American.
December 29th, 2007 at 9:53 amIt's Frank's war.
December 29th, 2007 at 9:54 amFrank has a problem with FEAR. Fear has driven him and others like him into irrational justification of torturing innocent people, even to death, and justifying the cold blooded murder of children, women and men.
Fear has driven him and others like him into gladly relinquishing the liberties and rights so dearly purchased, all for an illusory sense of security.
It is pointless to debate with Frank and those like him. Their grasp of reality is literally scaring them to death. That's why they are so willing to kill others: they see reality as a kill or be killed situation.
December 29th, 2007 at 9:56 amIf "whatever it takes" involves killing a person's family members, is that ok?
December 29th, 2007 at 9:57 am#8: I’m not going to enlist as it would hurt my chances for survival. As far as me ending up in a trial for speaking my mind and practicing my politics, is that the kind of “free†America you leftists dream about? Show trials and oppression of political opponents? Very stalinisque of you.
Comment by Frank M — December 29, 2007 @ 9:45 am
Since you have repeatedly shown yourself to be a worthless, sorry excuse for a human being your survival is important to no one, except you. It's not a "show trial" when people are committing acts that appear to be treason. It is necessity that they are brought to trial and their misdeeds shown to the Fox News watchers who have had their heads buried in the sand for the last decade.
December 29th, 2007 at 9:58 amIn the middle ages, the Inquisition called waterboarding “toca†and used it with great success. ... -williams
too bad he used that phrase: "with great success"
what success? what results? ...
it's all relative now... and possibly, now, even moot...
oops.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:00 amFrank, and those like him are too afraid to enlist. Instead, they evoke a sense of "patriotism" to get others to fight their battles for them, to torture others for them, to kill innocent children, women and men for them. The more others are tortured and killed, the more "secure" Frank and his ilk feel. Their fears keep them from thinking rationally.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:00 amIt’s Frank’s war.
Comment by ForTruth — December 29, 2007 @ 9:54 am
Yeah Frank is single handedly waging a war against bravery. "Oooh, I need to survive, I need to survive."
December 29th, 2007 at 10:01 amFox News watchers who have had their heads buried in the sand for the last decade.
Comment by Shayne — December 29, 2007 @ 9:58 am
I don't believe the sand is where their heads are buried...
December 29th, 2007 at 10:02 amSo Frank loves torture.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:03 amFrank, so do you think it's fine for any one to torture our people, so long as they feel it ensures their safety?
Suicide bombers blowing up our troops is fine, too, right? Since the bomber feels it will help ensure his family's safety?
1. Boohoo. The fact is that the people in this country want to feel secure and this administration is giving them security by any means necessary. It’s you and guys like this who have a problem with security. You’d rather hold on to your high ideals and die in the process than face the facts and do whatever it takes to protect ourselves and our children.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:05 amComment by Frank M — December 29, 2007 @ 9:26 am
My family is from Germany, we moved here in 1967.This comment reminds me of what my Oma told me about how the German people felt about Hitler. She had a family of 5 in 1934, which included my Mom. I asked her what she felt and why the German people did nothing to stop Hitler. She told me that they feared for their way of life and security. The told me that they did not know. Well we all know how that ended.
When this insanity reaches its logical conclusion, Frank M, you will not be allowed to claim that you did not know. I won’t let you. Others of the same mind as me will not let you.
As I said, most people in this country want to feel safe. You’re free to hold on to your high ideals, but don’t drag the rest of us with you to your demise.
Comment by Frank M — December 29, 2007 @ 9:57 am
You don't speak for "most people in this country" you speak for the 27% will to give up our way of life so they don't wet themselves everytime Bush or Guilliani or some other right wing exploiting politician tells you the terrorists are coming. Turning into a fascist state so that pathetic cowards like you feel safe in unacceptable to the majority of Americans.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:05 amIt’s Frank’s war.
Comment by ForTruth
and it looks to be frank's thread now too...
December 29th, 2007 at 10:06 amFrank M,
"You’d rather hold on to your high ideals and die in the process than face the facts and do whatever it takes to protect ourselves and our children."
Yep. Just Like Jefferson, Washington, Madison, Adams, Henry, Jay, Hancock.... all did. You are a coward of the highest order. But at least you're honest about your cowardice.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:06 amShayne, Frank doesn't even speak for 27%.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:08 amI doubt you'd find 1/2 of 1% who believes that torture of any and all kinds is just peachy.
Treason, shmreason. If safeguarding this country demands “treasonâ€, so be it.
Comment by Frank M — December 29, 2007 @ 10:00 am
How does creating more enemies make you safer? How does condoning torture make our troops safer? How does encouraging war criminals to commit more and worse crimes make you safer? How does bloviating here about acts that would be considered sedition under a normal administration make you safer? Better start saving your money for a good defense attorney.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:09 amFrank, whatever you do, do not come out of your basement...the terrorist are everywhere. Do you know who your next door neighbor is? Or the person living across the street. I'm sure they are after you. But have faith, after Novermber 2008 it will be safe.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:09 amBack to the topic of this thread, Lt. Cmdr. Andrew Williams has very vocally pointed out that Brigadier General Thomas W. Hartmann, the legal adviser at Guantanamo Bay, has provided our enemies with all the justification they need to torture Americans, be they everyday citizens or members of our armed forces.
Under the Bush Doctrine, anything that doesn't amount to the pain of organ failure or death is not torture. The breaking of bones is not torture; removing fingernails and toenails is not torture; drilling and/or extracting teeth is not torture; third degree burns on various sensitive body parts is not torture; whipping is not torture; dislocating shoulders and/or other joints is not torture; waterboarding is not torture; raping is not torture.
Under the Military Commissions Act, Bush gets to interpret the Geneva Convention, so everything we do now comports with International Law, as interpreted by Bush. And, the Military Commissions Act grants immunity from prosecution and civil liability, American citizens who torture.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:11 amIf so, why aren’t there riots on the streets and why hasn’t the White House been burned down by an angry mob demanding a stop to all those measures designed to protect them? The fringe left doesn’t speak for the majority.
Comment by Frank M — December 29, 2007 @ 10:08 am
When there are protests and riots the already fascist media doesn't show it on television. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And since you only watch Fox News, Jake, the amount of what you don't see is monumental.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:12 amBush and his commrades think anything that doesn't result in death isn't torture. I don't know when torture became equivalent to death but I suspect in was the day W was inaugurated.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:15 amBnF, you are absolutely correct. If we won't condemn it as torture, why should anyone else?
December 29th, 2007 at 10:22 amWhy shouldn't someone waterboard one of our own troops, or one of our regular citizens, when our own government refuses to say it's wrong?
4 Veritas
I just happened to catch the CNN ticker last night which said something about the state of Vermont regarding the arrest of Bush and Cheney for “war crimes†if they step foot in that state;
read more on michael moore
Vermont town seeks Bush, Cheney arrests
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latestnews/index.php?id=10614
December 29th, 2007 at 10:29 amTreason, shmreason. If safeguarding this country demands “treasonâ€, so be it.
Comment by Frank M — December 29, 2007 @ 10:00 am
You blew it, I am afraid. No real person would make this statement. You have exposed yourself as a fraud. An online imagined persona.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:30 amIts wrong full stop
George Bush should never be allowed to rewrite the history of torture
even for a brief 8 years
December 29th, 2007 at 10:32 amIn case you forgot, Frank, this article is about "Lt. Cmdr. Andrew Williams, a JAG officer with the U.S. Naval Reserve, recently resigned his commission over the alleged use of torture by the United States and the destruction of video tapes said to contain instances of that torture."
That seems to be a fairly open and courageous statement of protest, and I don't think a Navy JAG would be classified as the "fringe left".
December 29th, 2007 at 10:33 amIn other news:
http://weblogs.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/blog/2007/12/huckabees_muzzle_control_probl.html
December 29th, 2007 at 10:35 amIf you truly believe waterboarding is not torture, then you're more than willing to have yourself strapped to the floor and waterboarded yourself. Right?
Disgusting & sick. That's the best way to describe anyone who defends waterboarding, and refuses to call it what anyone with common sense (and a shred of humanity in them) already knows:
WATERBOARDING IS TORTURE. History has proven it.
If ever in United States history has there been a president worth of full-blown impeachment, it's the current occupant of the White House.
These are dark days for the United States, bros. Self inflicted, sad to say...
December 29th, 2007 at 10:37 amI guess “Lt. Commander†sounds impressive unless you know that is a fairly low ranking officer.
Comment by good_golly — December 29, 2007 @
Why do you Republicans hate the troops?
December 29th, 2007 at 10:38 amOh, good_golly, so it's not newsworthy for someone that has a military career in law to resign in protest, unless their rank is "impressive"?
Tell that to Andrew Williams' face, if you have the courage.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:39 amgood_golly must be Frank M/Jake. He can't come out from under his bed to confront Williams he's too askeered.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:41 amwhat was it again 197 republican representatives dont think waterboarding is torture
wow glad i live in Europe
December 29th, 2007 at 10:41 am#1, BnF
I second that!
It's encouraging to know that some people in authority do retain a level of integrity- it's very unfortunate that their honor and conscience force them to resign, leaving the immoral, unethical in place.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:44 amHis testimony had just sold all the soldiers and sailors at risk of capture and subsequent torture down the river.
Bingo! I find it amazing that the Republiscums don't see this slippery slope that Bush and Company has set us on. Before we started torturing our prisoners, you know darn good and well that they would be screaming "torture" if they found another country doing to our soldiers what we have done to our captives.
This is probably one of the factors that has lead to Bush's decline in popularity with military families. I know if I had a son or daughter in the military, I would be furious with Bush for what he has done.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:49 amFrank M's argument about "faux safety" is the same one Bushitco gives - our borders are wide open inviting everyone from illegal aliens to terrorists right in - and that's supposed to make us "safer"?? Give me a break here. This twisted logic is the same logic used by the third reich and we know what that led to.
Our use of torture against the Geneva Conventions, to which we are a signatory, as well as our continued use of enhanced interrogation techniques translates DIRECTLY into a global disgust toward this country as well as the absolute knowledge that our POW's will be given the exact same treatment - "an eye for an eye" mentality. This ensures a decided decline in the safety of our military for the coming decades, thanks to Emperor Chimp!
DoubleSpeak/NewSpeak is the intentional use of the opposite phraseology - aka - outright lies intended to defraud the public.
They all belong in jail for a very long time.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:53 amI guess "believing the lies" helps Frank M to sleep like a baby, just like his BoyToy Chimp??
December 29th, 2007 at 10:54 amBush has shot the credibility of this country straight to hell. This credibility will not be reestablished in our lifetimes due to how totally entrenched it currently is.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:55 amYou’d rather hold on to your high ideals and die in the process than face the facts and do whatever it takes to protect ourselves and our children.
Comment by Frank M
We would like to protect our children by protecting the constitution. Bush has not made us safe or protected us. He has made us much less safe by creating thousands of new terrorists weekly in the families of the people in Iraq we have killed or displaced. He has made us less safe by sending our National Guard (you know, the people who are supposed to protect us here at home) to Iraq. What will happen if the "terrorists" attack one of our cities, who will protect us? Not to mention who will help us in the case of a national disaster. Then there is the fact that Bush has not implemented ONE of the 911 commission recommendations of things to do to make us more secure at home.
Continue to live in your deluded dream world Frank, if it helps you feel safe. I pity you.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:55 amBy the time Bush's sins have been outed (and there will still be years more of findings following his exit from Washington) he will have to go into exile for a very long time.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:56 amBhutto asserted to David Frost less than two months ago that bin Laden had been murdered by Omar Sheikh, whom the Sunday Times once described as "no ordinary terrorist but a man who has connections that reach high into Pakistan's military and intelligence elite and into the innermost circles" of bin Laden and al-Qaeda. (Watch video starting at 5:33 for mentioned part.)
http://www.infowars.com/articles/world/pakistan_bhutto_said_osama_bin_laden_was_dead.htm
December 29th, 2007 at 10:56 amBilbo et al: No one is "safe" any longer with Bush using our Constitution for toilet paper.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:56 am#43: Ok, if believing that helps you to sleep at night.
Comment by Frank M
Just like you believing that somehow Bush is making you safe helps you sleep at night. I pity you.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:57 amYes, indeed! The name Omar Sheikh will soon be on the lips of most americans. It's all coming out. Now let's sit back and see who's been supporting Sir Sheikh, shall we?
December 29th, 2007 at 10:57 amGood golly, "good-dolly" doesn't the fact that Brigadier General Thomas W. Hartmann, the legal adviser at Guantanamo Bay, has given legal cover to our enemies to torture U.S. citizens bother you in the least?
Instead of addressing the issue, you issue an attack on the messenger.
FYI, Lt. Commander is the fourth of eleven steps, and Lt. Commander was in active service only 4 years before going into the Reserves. He's only 43 years old, which makes for a pretty young "retirement age." Please research the facts before you post.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:58 amIsn't that the main reason why the torture tapes were destroyed? That and the fact that it was prima facie evidence in an international court (Hague) that Bush is culpable of "war crimes". It goes without saying that it's a flagrant violation of our own Federal laws.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:58 amTypo in 68: “good-dolly†should read "good-golly"
December 29th, 2007 at 11:00 am#52: I can assure you, I am not Jake nor good_golly. What makes you think so? Do you have hard time accepting that there might be many people who actually associate with right wing and don’t think like you?
Comment by Frank M
We don't have any problem believing that you are right wing and don't think like us. As John Dean points out in his book Conservatives Without Conscience, approximately 25% of the people in any society need a strong authority figure to help them cope with the trials of life. Those are the 25% who still think George Bush is doing the right thing. You are part of that group Frank. You lack the ability to think indipendently and need a strong "daddy" figure to guide you through this thing called life. I pity you.
December 29th, 2007 at 11:00 amI'd venture to say that the resignation of Andrew Williams is the opening this country needs to get to the bottom of the torture issue and I can't imagine GollyDolly attempting to trivialize it - unless, of course, this heshe is a concern troll.
December 29th, 2007 at 11:00 amHey guys - we all know precisely who Frank M is, despite his protestations to the opposite. He doesn't deserve to be dialogued with.
December 29th, 2007 at 11:01 amPeter Pointer #64: The Ron Paul website had this youtube interview noted on it's website. Where there's smoke, there's fire. Omar Sheikh may be one of our lynchpins.
December 29th, 2007 at 11:02 amit’s very unfortunate that their honor and conscience force them to resign, leaving the immoral, unethical in place.
Comment by Marie
and THAT is what troubles me most...
but i undrstand the reasoning... just wish the path to righteousness
were not so complicated... or convoluted...
wrong is wrong... and it's righteous to expose the wrong...
which williams has helped to do... but, can he help more
OUTSIDE the system or within?
...
whew! ... what a topic to dive back into this with...
head is spinning... need. more. sugar...
later...
December 29th, 2007 at 11:03 am47. Trouble staying on topic?
Comment by good_golly
That's rich. Goon_golly, the king of off topic posts is chastising someone here for going off-topic. Can you spell h y p o c r i t e goon?
December 29th, 2007 at 11:04 am48 - no. But there's no ThinkFast thread today upon which to post various news items which might interest others who frequently visit this site.
December 29th, 2007 at 11:04 amI just happened to catch the CNN ticker last night which said something about the state of Vermont regarding the arrest of Bush and Cheney for “war crimes†if they step foot in that state; ergo, it may be the only state they have not visited. I’d love to learn more about that and see it on the MSM.
Comment by Veritas
Unfortunately it is only one town in Vermont and they are circulating a petition to get arresting them on the City Council agenda.
December 29th, 2007 at 11:07 amPersonally I prefer more extreme solutions.
Comment by Frank M
So do I... give me your home address and I'll show you in person.
December 29th, 2007 at 11:08 amI’m not going to enlist as it would hurt my chances for survival.
Comment by Frank M
Perfect. The chickenhawk Frank M is perfectly happy sending other people's sons and daughters to fight his war for him. But, he's too chicken to enlist because he might be killed. I pity you.
December 29th, 2007 at 11:09 amAs I said, most people in this country want to feel safe. You’re free to hold on to your high ideals, but don’t drag the rest of us with you to your demise.
Comment by Frank M
Most people in this country want us the hell out of Iraq. I guess they don't think that Iraq is the threat that you and the 24%ers do. I pity you.
December 29th, 2007 at 11:10 amLooks like they've already cut and run, but these guys are idiots.
Read my words carefully. I didn’t say “not newsworthy.†I said “not comparatively newsworthy.†Do you understand the difference? Waterbording is a topic worthy of national discussion. The resignation of a low ranking officer is not comparatively newsworthy on the national level.
Comment by good_golly — December 29, 2007 @ 10:43 am
So the resignation of a low level officer that stated he resigned due to the testimony of one of his superiors regarding WATERBOARDING is "not newsworthy"? You just said it was, which is it? oh, you are just another fake troll trying to change the subject? ok.
Then there's Frank:
December 29th, 2007 at 11:13 am"I’m not going to enlist as it would hurt my chances for survival." and the ultimate:
"Treason, shmreason. If safeguarding this country demands “treasonâ€, so be it."
Wait until you are forced to fight, due to you and your incredibly stupid theory that fighting them "over there" will stop us from fighting them here. Remember your boss, W said "Bring it on". So it's coming now Frank - get ready to kill your family, neighbors, friends, relatives and others around you so the terrorists won't harm you. Treason is what you called it I believe. FREAK.
Anyway, I don't believe Frank is real, and there is no way he has any children, he'd be too scared to deal with them, and let them walk all over him. And the voices will make him do terrible things.
It’s Frank’s war.
Comment by ForTruth
and it looks to be frank’s thread now too…
Comment by katy
You're right Katy. I'm done. Flag him and ignore him. It's the only way to handle Frank and his ilk.
December 29th, 2007 at 11:13 amTreason, shmreason. If safeguarding this country demands “treasonâ€, so be it.
Comment by Frank M — December 29, 2007 @ 10:00 am
If an American believed that the only way to keep this country safe was to commit an act of treason against this administration do you think that would be OK?
December 29th, 2007 at 11:28 amFear is THE destabilizing factor in the human psyche upon which Bush and his cadre of criminals counted to cripple each and every american.
December 29th, 2007 at 11:32 amTime to flag Frank, the moronic troll, outta here once and for all! Flag him so intelligent discussion can ensue.
December 29th, 2007 at 11:33 amAnd when one of our soldiers is waterboarded, bush/cheney and his stooges in the msm and trollnation will use that as justification for continuing to torture.
December 29th, 2007 at 11:34 amI'm with Katy since we've permitted Frank to overtake and hijack this thread. See ya'll later.
December 29th, 2007 at 11:35 amAnother military officer showing the courage of his convictions. Bravo.
December 29th, 2007 at 11:40 amWhat makes the neo-con defense of "waterboarding" so pathetically lame is the fact that Bush and his henchmen have said repeatedly that they don't "torture", while at the same time refusing to admit that "waterboarding" IS a form of "torture" per the Geneva Convention, WWII American convictions and an American Viet Nam conviction. They can't undo court rulings where there are long enduring legal precedents that "waterboarding" is in fact "torture" that World and American courts have prosecuted, convicted and sentenced defendants for committing. It's the Bushies same old corrupt and dishonest defense that anything and everything they do is virtuous because Mr. Bush SAYS it is and our history, traditions and laws can be damned! The Bushies won't go on record stating that "water-boarding" IS "torture" because it would be a guilty plea to their crimes. What's most shameful and malicious about those who defend torture is that they are sentencing Americans/American soldiers to a future when it will be OK and acceptable for them to be "water-boarded" by our enemies. They are advocating that Americans should ignore moral and legal precedents and declare "water-boarding" as legally acceptable American behavior that we cannot prosecute our enemies for. "Waterboarding" is not "torture" in the same reality where denying a person food until he/she is on the verge of starvation is a "diet". Both are painful and horrific, but the trick is knowing how to stop just short of killing the person being starved of oxygen or food. Defending the crimes of George W. Bush is announcing to our enemies that they can commit the same crimes on Americans with impunity.
The moral and ethical perversions of the Bush adminstration are as insidiously destructive as the nicotine in cigarettes. You don't realize you're being slowly poisoned until you've lost so much more than you've could have possibly gained. Bush is a cancer in the hearts and minds of unaware and misguided decent American citizens. For that, he must be held accountable so that everyone can see the truthful consequences of his destructive actions.
December 29th, 2007 at 11:47 amNuremberg- The symbol of measured justice from a moral superior.
The Republicans are a disgrace.
December 29th, 2007 at 11:50 amDoes anyone know the process whereby the American people can serve Bush, Cheney and the rest of the cabal up to the Hague once their criminal enterprise's term is up?
December 29th, 2007 at 11:52 amConyers does NOT care about Wexler’s Petition to start Cheney impeachment hearings!
Read the transcript from Democracy Now.
http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2007/12/22/from-democracy-now-interview-with-conyers-he-doesnt-care-about-wexlers-petition/
He will NOT allow impeachment hearings to take place.
Conyers knows that Pelosi will undercut the efforts of impeachment rather than helping to build a bi-partisan coalition to impeach.
Conyers knows that Pelosi will again be Speaker of the House next year and she will take him off the Judiciary Committee if he goes against her wishes. It’s a “lose-lose†for him and impeachment.
Let’s help him and the rest of the members of the House of Representatives by removing an obstructionist Speaker. It can be done and must be done to start the impeachment process.
http://www.petitiononline.com/everyman/petition.html
December 29th, 2007 at 12:06 pmAs ThinkProgress reported in December, Brigadier General Thomas W. Hartmann, the legal adviser at Guantanamo Bay, repeatedly refused to call the hypothetical waterboarding of an American pilot by the Iranian military torture.
***************************************
You have to give the brigadier credit for this much...at least he's consistent, which is more than some people in this debate are willing to be. If we refuse to consider waterboarding torture when we do it to our enemies, both logic and ethics demand that we give up the right to call it torture if and when our enemies do it to us. Conversely, if we would consider it torture for a member of our military forces to be waterboarded by one of our enemies, then logic and ethics similarly demand that we acknowledge the fact that our country has in fact practiced torture on members of opposing forces (military or otherwise) in the past and that we must not permit ourselves on principle to do so ever again. Trying to convince the world that it's torture when they do it but somehow isn't torture when we do it because We're The Good Guys(TM), because Good Guys(TM) Don't Torture, and because We're Just Trying To Make The World Safe For Democracy won't fool anybody and will only serve to show that the United States has lost whatever moral compass it might have had -- and not merely lost it by accident, but has chosen on purpose to discard it.
Lt. Cmdr. Williams deserves many kudos for having the courage and the willingness to stand up for ethical principles, even though it comes at the cost of his career. The fact that the vast majority of people in this administration (both in and out of uniform) seem incapable of doing the same is truly a sad reflection on what this once-great country has allowed itself to become.
December 29th, 2007 at 12:09 pmBoohoo. The fact is that the people in this country want to feel secure and this administration is giving them security by any means necessary. It’s you and guys like this who have a problem with security. You’d rather hold on to your high ideals and die in the process than face the facts and do whatever it takes to protect ourselves and our children.
Comment by Frank M — December 29, 2007 @ 9:26 am
I agree. Send TRAITOR Bush to Gitmo and waterboard him till DEAD.
And WHO NEEDS "high ideals" anyway?
The USA is now just another third-world military dictatorship.
FEAR is now the ruling party, practiced by the RapeubliNazis...
Sincerely,
NRA Gun Nutes
December 29th, 2007 at 12:24 pmTreason, shmreason. If safeguarding this country demands “treasonâ€, so be it.
Comment by Frank M — December 29, 2007 @ 10:00 am
If an American believed that the only way to keep this country safe was to commit an act of treason against this administration do you think that would be OK?
Comment by Saint Augustine — December 29, 2007 @ 11:28 am
Absolutely.
Since the Bushies are ALREADY shown to have committed TREASON, any acts of "treason" against them would be PATRIOTIC.
Especially since they ARE the ENEMY of the USA from within...
Sincerely,
NRA Gun Nutes
December 29th, 2007 at 12:29 pmThat would pretty much require UN action to create a Special War Crimes Tribunal. Both the US and the UK have a blocking vote on the Security Council, so it isn't likely to pass. While a subsequent administration in the US might allow such a tribunal, I seriously doubt the British will ever allow ex Prime Minister Blair to be put on trial for War Crimes.
The other possibility is for one of the Countries who maintains Universal Jurisdiction over Crimes Against Humanity to kidnap and try Bush&Co. The United States has already argued that jurisdiction over an accused who is brought into this country by kidnapping is proper, so it could be done.
I've got a feeling that the Secret Service tab for protecting Bush&Co after they leave office is going to be astronomical.
December 29th, 2007 at 12:41 pmThanks BNF, so how do we approach the UN on this? Does anybody know of a Kidnappings 'R Us ??
December 29th, 2007 at 12:43 pm99 - yes. It's a fly-by-night operation called the CIA.
December 29th, 2007 at 12:46 pm#100 BNF, and ya spose they'll be pissed enough about the Plame outing to do it? Hope springs eternal....
December 29th, 2007 at 12:57 pmTypo in 68: “good-dolly†should read “good-gollyâ€
Comment by Briseadh na Faire — December 29, 2007 @ 11:00 am
same difference. brainless as a dolly.
December 29th, 2007 at 1:00 pmThe United States have been torturing people since after the Second World War. I Latin America, thousands of people were subject to torture by the military dictatorships implemented there by the US. They tought our military (Brazil;Argentina;Chile;Uruguay;Paraguay;Peru;Colombia;Equador; Nicaragua...) on the techniques of torture in the 'School of the Americas' in the US. In Argentina, with the colaboration of the USA, thousands of people disapeared in the 70's and 80's. Nicaragua had its democratic elected president taken out by the USA financed and supported paramilitary terrorists milicias. Negroponte than was the embassador of the US in Honduras where he forseen the whole operation. Now Negroponte is involved in forseen operations of the same king in Iraq. Desregarding the Geneva convention is a serious matter that this administration has yet to understand its consequences. And there are many! Including the danger of an US soldier been "harshly interrogated" using US interrogation style! INDICT; IMPEACH; IMPRISON BUSH AND CHENNEY!
December 29th, 2007 at 1:38 pmI always liked that show “JAGâ€.
Particuarly when they showed Catherine Bell in a bikini.
:P
Comment by BARTLEBEE
I lough loudly with this comment! Hehehehehe!
December 29th, 2007 at 1:45 pmDefending the crimes of George W. Bush is announcing to our enemies that they can commit the same crimes on Americans with impunity.
Comment by Osage
I have hopes! Excellet comment!
December 29th, 2007 at 1:55 pmPS.Frank M is talking about "our children"... I thought he was still trying to get the 'girls' with his mustang...
Does anyone else think the following scenario is beyond the realm of possibility?
By the year 2020, the United States has fallen into bankruptcy. Other countries in the world are no longer willing to try to save a "sinking ship." The members of OPEC, who hold most of the remaining, albeit dwindling oil reserves, are unwilling to trade with the United States, which has little of value to exchange. The extended families of Bush, Cheney, and their compatriots continue to enjoy lives of relative luxury on South American estates formerly inhabited by Nazis fleeing justice (Paraguay, perhaps?).
OPEC members, bitterly recalling brutal treatment earlier in the century by the United States, in exchange for a minimal amount of oil to maintain vital functions in this country demand that the United States turn over the members of its military, CIA, and private contractors who participated in torture of so-called terrorist suspects. Panicked by a state of sheer desperation, the United States complies.
A modern-day equivalent of the Nuremberg trials is held in one of the Middle Eastern countries, where those on trial contend that they were merely following orders. Citing the oath that members of the military took to obey the Constitution, not their commander-in-chief, the judges condemn most of the accused to death (by whatever means is in style at the time).
Despite the almost unprecedented advantages enjoyed by the United States in preceding centuries (free land, taken from the Native American inhabitants; almost free labor, provided by kidnapped slaves from Africa and horribly exploited immigrants in sweat shop conditions; and remaining relatively unscathed by the horrible destruction of two World Wars, the United States has self-destructed itself into obscurity, not unlike the formerly feared tyrannical family patriarch, who, crippled with the infirmities of advancing age, can only rant and rave from the confines of a wheelchair, while circling the dayroom in a nursing home.
Think it couldn't happen here?
December 29th, 2007 at 2:11 pmWe have a real problem with this debate.
1. People confuse feeling secure with security. The two are simply not the same. One can destroy a nations military by failing to distinguish between the two. During WWII the Japanese homeland was attacked by a small group of 16 B-25 bombers flown off the USS Hornet. They attacked the Japenese homeland with very little damage. However, it was the psychological fear created within the Japanese government and its desire to make the people at home feel secure that severly damaged the Japenese military position.
a. The Japanese military withdrew front line forces to increase homeland security.
b. The Japanese decided to end the possibility of further attacks by finding and destroying the enemy carrier forces. This led to the Battle of Midway and the end of the Japanese carrier force as an offensive force.
There is little doubt that the Japanese would have posed a far greater threat to the allies had they not over reacted to the Doolittle Raid. The Japenese had carrier supremacy and would well have continued that superiority for a considerable time while the US built up its forces.
The US has had the same reaction that harmed the Japanese after the Doolittle Raid. It over reacted, expended scarce military resources on an unnecessary and undproductive war (Iraq and not Afghanistan) as well as squandered precious international standing and national treasure.
2. Are we more secure? Frankly, I feel a lot less secure than I did in the days immediately after 9/11. The shift from Afghanistan to Iraq caused a dramatic down turn in support for the US. This has translated into a radicalized middle east that supports AQ, breeds more terrorists and ties down our military fighting an insurgency in a country that had not been a problem to US security. Indeed, Iraq has been a valuable training ground as we see Iraqi insurgency tactics now used against allied forces in Afghanistan. Indeed, we have created the training ground for thousands of would be terrorists to come after the US. There was never a serious threat to US interests in the Middle East after 9/11 until we invaded Iraq. The US played into Bin Laden's hands by spreading the war and by adopting tactics that were repugnant to all civilized people of the world.
3. Where was the threat? I am sorry, but to hear the cowards supporting the "security" state, one would believed that threats abounded around every corner threatening the very existence of the United States. However, in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, no follow up attacks took place. No sleeper cells were or have been discovered. The few show trials that have taken place involved very low levels of terrorist wannabe's. The fact is that AQ finally pulled off a reasonable attack. The US reacted and was supported by the entire world. The job against AQ should have been finished with Bin Laden brought to justice. The Middle East supported this objective, the Iranians were in the street supporting the US against AQ. Instead, we pulled out from the legitimate objective, allowed Bin Laden to show that even his rag tag group could evade destruction of the US and gave him time to turn AQ into a decentralized franchise operation.
I fear for the furture of the US. We need to understand that 9/11 was not the beginning of a third or fourth world war. It was a successful albeit lucky attack by a small radical group. It would have been no more had AQ been decisively destroyed and other political/military fantasies been put aside to protect the real objectives of US security. Now we have created the monster that was before only a dream.
December 29th, 2007 at 2:16 pmPurely a hypothetical aside, given the mention of World War II in Post #107...
Recall that Prescott Bush (W's granddaddy) was a shareholder and director of a company that continued to trade with the Nazis in the 1940s (i.e., United Banking Corporation), even AFTER the United States had declared war on Germany.
Let's see, the Allies included the Soviet Union (whose official position on religion was that of atheism), as opposed to the Axis powers, which included Germany (who claimed to be on a mission from God). As Hitler stated in a radio address to the nation on January 30, 1945, "...God the Almighty has made our nation. By defending its existence we are defending His work...."
Also recall that the United States remained "neutral" for quite some time after hostilities began in the late 1930s, only entering the war in a meaningful way in 1942.
If Bush, Cheney and their buddies were in charge today, would the United States have fought on the side of the Axis powers or the Allies?
December 29th, 2007 at 2:44 pmJMOHR - excellent post except for one thing - your underlying assumption that AQ pulled off 9/11. There never was a criminal investigation into whodunnit.
It is, in my opinion, just as likely, if not more so, that 9/11 was pulled off by a faction within our own government.
Both possibiliites are theories. Both involve conspiracies.
The Truth requires an investigation. The Bush Administration has refused to conduct an investigation.
Ask yourself, Why? and then search the internet.
December 29th, 2007 at 2:56 pmResponse to 108:
Durining the Great Depression, certain of the elite, wealthy class (including the senior Bush) had approached FDR to encourage him to install (for lack of better word) fascist government. The US would have become such under the current leadership even before Germany started a war. The communists, socialists and anarchists would have been touted as the threat. The actions of unions and the throngs of unemployed and hungary would have been blamed as unworthy, lazy parasites that constituted an internal threat to the country.
We would have seen the US going after the remaining French and British colonial possessions. Russia would have been a threat but also a valuable offsetting weight against Hitler's Germany.
I would suspect that we would have assimilated Britan and France and then started an aggressive campaign against Germany for world domination. The people would have been brainwashed to accept this given the communist, socialist and anarchist threat. They would further bought into it as some economic benefits started to flow in from British and French colonies.
Just a guess.
December 29th, 2007 at 3:00 pmRe: My earlier Post #108, last paragraph -- Perhaps the statement "If Bush, Cheney and their buddies were in charge today" was an unconscious exercise in wishful thinking, however, that sentence should have read, "If Bush, Cheney and their buddies had been in charge at that time..."
For those wishing to learn more about the planned coup in the early 1930s, you can check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot -- if Smedley Butler had been a less honorable man, the history of this country could have taken a radically different course, although the Bushies would have enjoyed a prominent role under either scenario.
December 29th, 2007 at 3:15 pmhttp://firedoglake.com/2007/12/28/fourthbranch-profiles-in-cheney/
[b]Conyers does NOT care about Wexler’s Petition to start Cheney impeachment hearings![/b]
Read the transcript from Democracy Now.
http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2007/12/22/from-democracy-now-interview-with-conyers-he-doesnt-care-about-wexlers-petition/
He will NOT allow impeachment hearings to take place.
Conyers knows that Pelosi will undercut the efforts of impeachment rather than helping to build a bi-partisan coalition to impeach.
Conyers knows that Pelosi will again be Speaker of the House next year and she will take him off the Judiciary Committee if he goes against her wishes. It’s a “lose-lose†for him and impeachment.
Let’s help him and the rest of the members of the House of Representatives by removing an obstructionist Speaker. It can be done and must be done to start the impeachment process.
http://www.petitiononline.com/everyman/petition.html
To Replace Nancy Pelosi as Speaker of the House of Representatives for the Purposes of Pursuing Impeachment
To: U.S. House of Representatives
Online Petition to Remove Pelosi as Speaker of the House of Representatives
by Scott Creighton
In the event of a rogue presidency, the founders of our great nation provided for protections for us, the citizens, under the constitution in the form of a process called impeachment.
Though rarely spoken, the word itself holds great power in that it binds the president and his entire administration to the laws of the nation and makes them all accountable to the people.
2053 Signatures Total
This administration has committed treason, and therefore must be held accountable for it. Period.
December 29th, 2007 at 3:21 pmSome people have ethics and principles. These days, unfortunately, they have to resign because of their ethics and principles. In the Bush era, anything goes. Torture, denial of habeas corpus, secret prisons, and renditions, are all in a work's day.
Will Americans ever wake up and realize what kind of monster they have created by voting for this abominable creature and his entourage of psychopaths to get another four years at destroying everything the US ever stood for?
December 29th, 2007 at 4:50 pmAlthough the prospect of impeachment has enormous appeal, can anyone name a Democrat from a district that isn't "safe", who has signed on to support such an action?
Unless a member of congress resides in a district where the vote is routinely at least 75% for Democrats, they risk angering their large corporate benefactors (who are completely behind the Bush/Cheney agenda), who will then completely withdraw all financial support, redirecting it toward any Republican who runs against this soon-to-be former Congressperson. And the MSM, which serves as the designated megaphone for this cabal will ensure that their message saturates the homes of everyone who is sufficiently naive to depend upon the corporate media for their worldview.
Impeachment will never occur in this country without the express permission of Big Money. Perhaps at a time when the government belonged to the people, this could have occurred. But not now.
Many of the sheep in this country have surrendered their destinies to the care of large corporations, whose only responsibility is to maximize profits for their shareholders, without any regard whatsoever to the "collateral damage" that this might entail. At present, sufficient numbers in Congress are owned by Big Money to ensure that no dissenting voice(s) will rise to the level that any worthwhile change will occur.
Any meaningful reform would require a major sea change with regard to public opinion (which is managed by the corporate cabal as well), followed by sustained action, the likes of which would be unprecedented in this nation's history.
The media includes numerous polls reflecting dissatisfaction by the majority of the public with performance of the legislative and executive branches of the federal government. An honest polling of the largest corporate campaign contributors' satisfaction with the status quo would most certainly produce a radically different result.
Sadly, the road back is extremely treacherous, and achieving the desired result would require the undaunted courage, determination and sacrifice of many.
Is our country there yet? The evidence to date would not seem to support an affirmative answer.
Should progressives surrender and become silent? The answer is a resounding NO. However, one should make no mistake about the incredible difficulty that such an endeavor entails
December 29th, 2007 at 5:10 pmHere's a rather unsettling question...
Has the success of the MSM in promoting the Bush/Cheney agenda actually protected us from a presidential determination that a national state of emergency exists, thereby triggering the implementation of martial law in this country?
Any thoughts as to the likelihood of this occurring if the Bush/Cheney cabal was confronted with a serious threat to its continued existence?
December 29th, 2007 at 5:24 pmFinally someone with some honor within the Bush administration.
December 29th, 2007 at 5:27 pmMaybe it is time to attack the monied interests and to unseat them from power. The United States became the liberal democracy with strong social safety net, GI Bill and economic opportunity for all of its citizens. These developments came because of the unrest caused by unions, by communists, anarchists and socialists both here and abroad. Big business attempted to create its own fascist government in the United States. It failed. It also failed in Britan and France. We saw what happened to Germany and Italy. Both during and after WWII, monied interests accepted the temperment of capitalism by the common good. It is time to put the fear of the people back into these scum. It is also time for the God-fearing Republican base to understand that their standard of living and quality of life came from liberal, progressive and Democratic policies. I think some are beginning to see the light.
December 29th, 2007 at 5:28 pmLast time that happened in earnest was the French Revolution, I think.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:10 pmI rather think that the populist movement comes closer to what I had in mind although I do know how to construct a guillotine.
December 30th, 2007 at 1:29 pmThe US also used waterboarding against Filipino insurgents in 1901/02 during the Philippine-American War. Though atrocities were committed by both sides, US torture of prisoners caused a political controversy for TR. As a result he dismissed the military commander as a public statement against the use of what is nowadays referred to as "harsh techniques."
December 31st, 2007 at 4:48 pmsome of you have questioned this turn of phrase:
"In the middle ages, the Inquisition called waterboarding “toca†and used it with great success."
why 'great success'? indeed, from the Inquisition's point of view it was a success. consider that the aim of torture is never to get 'actionable intelligence' or other valuable information.
its only aim is to elicit false confessions. this is precisely what the Bushco torturers use it for as well. they're getting embarrassed by one terrorism trial after another falling apart with no convictions. so being able to use false confessions in the kangaroo trials courtesy of the military commission is naturally a great relief - it will make for at least a few convictions.
one of the guys whom they tortured for months - the very guy whose torture tapes were shredded - sent the entire 'homeland security' bureaucracy (what a Nazi-esque term!) into a dizzy several times, which produced all those color coded alerts. he told them just about anything he thought they might want to hear just to make them stop. the only problem was, none of it was true.
and so it goes - America has lost her liberties (you have not even habeas corpus anymore after all!), has become synonymous with torture, and the 'security' allegedly bought by this state of affairs is nothing but a complete illusion.
if the intelligence apparatus couldn't stop 19 hijackers with $40 billion/year, it can't with $120 billion plus torture either. all that has happened is: freedom gone, soul lost.
now a word to you 'progressives': while it was Bush who has visited these monstrosities on the US, i have not seen your democratic Congress lift even a tiny finger to change any of it. if you seriously think the democratic establishment will rescind a single of the newly acquired absolutist presidential powers or change even a sliver of the neo-fascist legislation that has been enacted, you're living in dreamland. they all signed on the dotted line, and will keep doing so.
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:45 pm