According to Iraqi health, defense and interior ministries, 16,232 civilians died in Iraq in 2007. The year before, the ministries said that 12,371 civilians were killed. Similarly, an AP count found that 18,610 Iraqis were killed in 2007, compared to 13,813 in 2006. “Figures for the most recent months indicate that violence in Iraq has returned to the monthly levels Iraq Body Count was recording in 2005, a year which was itself (until 2006) the worst since the invasion.”
(HT: Juan Cole)
We need another surge.
And another.
And another.
And another.
And another.
January 2nd, 2008 at 11:27 am1-20-09 / End of an Error
January 2nd, 2008 at 11:43 amYa can’t make a huge omelette without breaking lots of eggs, ya know?
January 2nd, 2008 at 11:45 amThe surge is working?
January 2nd, 2008 at 11:45 amIt’s working! More people are dying and democracy is spreading. Praise the lord of war! More dead means there are less people not free and democratic, so we’re winning and should stay forever and ever, Amen.
January 2nd, 2008 at 11:46 amWonder how many “civilians” died in Wash DC or NY city in 2007 as compared to 2006????
What an amazing statistic!! Of course I’m sure no city anywhere has ever had “civilians” die before. And naturally you libs have to assume it’s ONLY because of the U.S. being there.
Unbelievable!!
January 2nd, 2008 at 11:49 amJuan’s site has a different higher total? from 22 to 24 thousands dead
January 2nd, 2008 at 11:50 amAnd naturally you libs have to assume it’s ONLY because of the U.S. being there.
Comment by John Kerry
Well, according to international warfare laws, the occupation forces have to ensure the protection of civilians. So, yes…
January 2nd, 2008 at 11:52 amhttp://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/ British_Mandate_of_Mesopotamia
Its like a repeat of today.
January 2nd, 2008 at 11:54 amUnbelievable!!
Comment by John Kerry — January 2, 2008 @ 11:49 am
Whatta totally disingenuous comment on yer part.
Utterly believable… that you’d come here ‘n try to sell the same brand of Bull *Bleep* AGAIN…
January 2nd, 2008 at 11:56 amAre they ever going to have another election in Iraq? Wasn’t having elections supposed to be part of the “success” in Iraq?
January 2nd, 2008 at 11:56 am#7, apparently trolls can’t do math. The US annual murder rate is about 7 per 100,000 in the population. With a similar rate, Iraq would expect about 1750 murders per year. Instead, it gets at least ten times that.
So apparently 0.1 = 1.0 in troll math.
January 2nd, 2008 at 11:59 amComment by John Kerry — January 2, 2008 @ 11:49 am
It doesnt say died, it says killed.
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:00 pmWonder how many “civilians†died in Wash DC or NY city in 2007 as compared to 2006????
Comment by John Kerry — January 2, 2008 @ 11:49 am
Homicides in New York City: 493 in a population of 8,214,426
Homicides in Washington DC: 181 in a population of 581,530
Homicides in Iraq: 18,610 in a population of 26,783,383
Homicide rate in New York City: .6 per 10,000
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:01 pmHomicide rate in Washington DC: 3.1 per 10,000
Homicide rate in Iraq: 6.9 per 10,000
“The more than 70,000 Sunni fighters who have joined an anti-al-Qaida in Iraq movement are being targeted by extremists.†Are they counted as civilians in the count?
Comment by good_golly — January 2, 2008 @ 11:31 am
Yes. They are civilians killed by violence at the hands of a group that didn’t exist before the U.S. invaded.
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:03 pmBy looking at those numbers DC is an oppressive place.
Surge!!
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:05 pm#18, your point? It’s a war zone because there’s a foreign enemy there; not only as a belligerent, but as a faction actively playing local forces against each other to promote violence.
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:08 pmThis new troll is boring.
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:08 pmMust be caused by the GLOBAL WARMING that’s warming the entire globe today!!!
As usual, the U.S. is the enemy! Amazing!!!
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:09 pm“… time to end the illegal occupation of D.C., that place is going downhill fast.”
Comment by Fairy Duster
Finally something we can agree upon, Jason! Bush and his dick Cheney’s illegal occupation of D.C. has most certainly sent the place (and the rest of our nation) downhill fast!
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:10 pmAt the Cairo Conference of 1921, the British set the parameters for Iraqi political life that were to continue until the 1958 revolution.
See, we only need to stay in Iraq another unmanageable 30 years- it worked so well for the Ottoman empire.
snark
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:11 pmFrom the article:
Now, the good news is that the number of deaths in Iraq are down these last few months. The question remains, will this continue after Bush’s “surge” troops cut-and-run? Can the Iraqi’s maintain this level of security on their own?
Of course, the wild card is, what will happen after Sadyr’s unilateral “cease-fire” ends in March, ‘08?
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:13 pmBut….I thought we were embroiled in a civil war, that the AQ was a Rovian myth created to scare the people?
You heard it here first: AQ in Iraq does exist. Just want to point that out in reference to the ThinkFast thread where Obama’s idea to chase AQ elements in Pakistan was supported as smart policy.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 12:07 pm
Oh, we are embroiled in a civil war. Al-Qa’ida in Iraq exists, and is one of the factions - albeit a relatively small one - in that civil war.
And al-Qa’ida in Iraq has little to do with al-Qa’ida in Pakistan, except for their use of the brand name and a general agreement in philosophy.
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:13 pmPerhaps Troll John Kerry should have done some light stretching, some troll warm-up exercises before trying to jump right into the fray.
Apparently, typing “Amazing” or “Unbelieveable” followed by a couple of exclamation points (!!!) consititutes a compelling argument for hung-over trolls.
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:13 pmBut first we need political reconciliation (ht: Reid), where is Marion Barry when you need him? Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 12:10 pm
You do realize the “I am a uniter not a divider” means just the opposite?
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:14 pmAs usual, the U.S. is the enemy! Amazing!!!
Comment by John Kerry
US: 19.7 tonns CO2 per capita. 2004. 1st in the world.
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:14 pm#27, AQ makes up about 5% of the forces fighting us. And yet we’re supposed to believe that it’s acceptable to enrage a population to the point where we create 19 new enemies for every one we’re supposedly there to fight?
More bad troll math.
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:15 pmFinally something we can agree upon, Jason! Bush and his dick Cheney’s illegal occupation of D.C. has most certainly sent the place (and the rest of our nation) downhill fast!
Comment by A Patriot Acting — January 2, 2008 @ 12:10 pm
Or at the very least, they could bring democracy to DC while they’re occupying it. But they’ve refused even that!
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:16 pmComment by John Kerry
Our troops should not be used for nation building. -GWB
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:17 pm#34, DC is also an urban area - and thus is not strictly comparable to Iraq. Because the inclusion of small towns and rural areas will bring down the average, the violence rates in Iraq’s cities are going to be more than twice the US’s worst city.
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:18 pm“Hmmm, just under half of Iraq’s numbers for D.C. which is not a war zone, at least not in the colloquial sense.”
Comment by Fairy Duster
Break it down further. Any DC deaths attributable to car bombs? Suicide bombers?
If you’re comparing stats, the manner in which they died also matters.
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:20 pm#39, where does “5% of the forces fighting us” (a statement repeatedly made by our own military brass) translate to the claim that they don’t exist. Are you accusing our own military public affairs officers of having forsaken sanity?
Again, I ask: how does it make sense to create 19 new enemies for every one you’re intending to fight?
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:22 pmBut they’re only Iraqi’s!
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:22 pmSo there is more admittance that AQII does exist.
According to the military they have destroyed 75% of AQI in Iraq.
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:26 pmStill, look at the numbers just for DC compared to the entire country of Iraq which is, under the definition of the data for this study, a war zone.
Comment by Fairy Duster
Apples and oranges.
See my last post.
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:27 pmThere is some sick logic exhibited on this board:
Because “x” kills, it is ok for “y” to kill?; because DC homicide rates are high we shouldn’t care that our invasion for oil is responsible for causing more deaths in Iraq?
Democracy is coming to Iraq in one year per Cheney: For this to happen however, it will be required that NO females remain in Iraq and perhaps only 10 men, all of one sect.
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:28 pm#43 It cuts both ways, the violence in Kurdish territory is next to nothing
Quite untrue: the Kurds are ethnically cleansing Turkomen and Arabs, and there’s been a smoldering civil war between the two Kurdish political parties/factions for a long time.
It’s not quite as bad as the rest of the country, but it’s no garden spot. The only significant difference is that there almost no US troops there.
#45 You still haven’t answered the question: how is creating 19 enemies for each one you intend to fight (none of whom were there before you entered the theater anyway) good military strategy? And why should we think that local forces wouldn’t deal with them if they weren’t considered by some to be useful idiots?
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:31 pmI am accusing every person who has declared that we need to run from Iraq asap -FD
If Iraq is sovereign, and George said it is, its not up to us.
79 percent of Iraqis say that the US is having a negative influence on the situation in Iraq, with just 14 percent saying that it is having a positive influence.
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:33 pmSo there is more admittance that AQII does exist, nice to see not all of you have forsaken sanity.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 12:19 pm
I like how Fairy Duster uses the magical right-wing “truthiness creator” to transform a left-wing skepticism of AQI’s influence in the larger conflict into a denial of its existence.
It’s a familiar tactic among tighty-righties who have no other, more rational avenue available to them:
- take a reasonably-held liberal position.
- extrapolate it to its most extreme and unreasonable possibility.
- pretend that this extreme position is held by a majority of liberals.
- demonstrate the illogic of the position you yourself created.
- criticize all liberals for embracing such nonsense.
That’s a winner — right, Fairy?
Ah, well, I guess we can’t criticize the peasants for throwing pebbles if pebbles are all they have.
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:33 pmCivilian carnage is irrelevant.
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:33 pmCivilian carnage is irrelevant.
Comment by Imichael — January 2, 2008 @ 12:33 pm
Thats just sociopathic. Its a Freedom Operation, remember?
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:35 pmCivilian carnage is irrelevant.
Comment by Imichael
Whats next, you going to claim your pro-life?
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:37 pmCivilian carnage is irrelevant.
Comment by Imichael — January 2, 2008 @ 12:33 pm
Hey, everybody! Troll-name Michael is back!
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:37 pm#51, in addition, about the only thing the factions in the Iraqi parliament can agree on is that they want us out. A majority opposed the UN reauthorization of the mandate for foreign troops in their country, which made the reauthorization a violation of their constitution, but - as has happened several times - the PM’s office has used illegal maneuvers to prevent a vote in parliament that wouldn’t go the way the US wants.
So it’s not just us violating the will of the Iraqi people as expressed in poll after poll, it’s us unconstitutionally violating the will of their parliament through a puppet PM.
“Soverignty”, like “democracy”, is about empty form to the Bushies, not substance. It’s a soverign democracy if they go through the motions of elections and constitutional conventions and parliamentary votes - but no one is fooled that these will be allowed to matter.
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:38 pm#55 The sick logic is that these current numbers haven’t been compared to the numbers of deaths under Hussein, when people weren’t being suicide bombed but they were being bulldozed in mass graves after the most recent Saddamite purge.
Actually, they have. Aside from the casualties in the Iran-Iraq war, some 300,000 civilians were killed during Saddam’s entire decades-long reign. We topped that after about three years. Meanwhile, everyday life was pretty safe, which it most certainly is not now.
Again, bad troll math: Saddam did some violence, so it’s morally equivalent to when we unleash an order of magnitude more?
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:41 pm#61, and to clarify, I’m not even sure the 300,000 number I’ve seen excludes civilian casualties of the I-I war.
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:44 pmComment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 12:40 pm
State department
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:47 pmMy New Year’s resolution is to never, ever, talk to trolls.
God, I feel cleaner already!
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:47 pmStill, look at the numbers just for DC compared to the entire country of Iraq which is, under the definition of the data for this study, a war zone.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 12:24 pm
You’re absolutely right. My comparison between a city with a relatively small population and an entire country was completely inaccurate. It’s much better to compare Iraq with states of equivalent population, so that rural and urban areas can be properly figured in to the equation. Here’s how the numbers turn out (crime stats for US states are 2006 numbers - 2007 aggregates are not available yet):
Iraq: 18,610 homicides/26,783,383 pop = 6.94 homicides per 10,000
New York State: 921 homicides/18,976,457 pop = 0.49 homicides per 10,000
DC/Maryland/Virginia: 1,114 homicides/13,260,433 pop = 0.84 homicides per 10,000
I apologize for my earlier misleading statistics.
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:49 pmBut, as long as our guys aren’t getting killed, the “surge is working”. Why is it that we only care about our occupying force and not about the people in the country we are occupying. That statistic of violent deaths is shocking. But even more shocking is the number of people dying in Iraq due to disease and malnutrition. We have created a monster by invading and occupying Iraq. And some day we will be called upon to atone for the sins we have committed (I’m using “we” loosely here, meaning our government).
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:55 pmPlease link to information about the marches, sit-ins and tearful gatherings that you held on behalf of those monthly 1,000.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 12:49 pm
Well, Bush was so hellbent on delivering them from evil, when was he involved in marches, sit-ins, and tearful gatherings pre-2001? Bush I? Reagan?
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:57 pmUnbelievable!!
Comment by John Kerry
What is unbelievable is how stupid you are.
Similarly, an AP count found that 18,610 Iraqis were killed in 2007, compared to 13,813 in 2006.
If more people in Washington DC or New York were killed in 2007 than in 2006 it would indicate that they have a real problem that needs to be fixed.
JK, your reading comprehension skills suck. Why do you keep coming back here making an absolute a$$ out of yourself? I assume you have no pride.
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:57 pmPlease link to information about the marches, sit-ins and tearful gatherings that you held on behalf of those monthly 1,000.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 12:49 pm
Yes please link to those sit ins you attended because you cared so much for the oppressed that we had to go into Iraq and free them.
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:58 pmPlease link to information about the marches, sit-ins and tearful gatherings that you held on behalf of those monthly 1,000.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 12:49 pm
Please link to the relevant information showing the US government directly responsible for those “monthly 1,000″?
Thanks.
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:59 pmAnd naturally you libs have to assume it’s ONLY because of the U.S. being there.
Unbelievable!!
Comment by John Kerry
I see. So you are indicating that tens of thousands of Iraqi’s were being killed in Iraq yearly before we invaded and occupied the country. Would you like to back that up with facts? Probably not, since facts have a decidedly liberal bias.
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:59 pmComment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 12:57 pm
Maybe blackwater has a polling division. Nice try at ignoring the poll BTW.
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:59 pmState department
Comment by Xisithrus — January 2, 2008 @ 12:47 pm
Ah, so State guys went out into Iraq and did the polling or did they depend on others to do it for them?
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 12:57 pm
Why do you depend on others to do your research for you?
Or do you only do that when the question is more useful to you than the answer?
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:00 pmEventually you guys will figure out that republicans and their supporters love war…as long as some one else is fighting it. What they deplore is thinking about the reasoning for going to war and questioning their authority to wage war. They love it and are always right about it. Every person killed is a terrorist, there are no civillian deaths, and no insurgents. That is what I get out of nearly every thread on the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan. And it all makes me wonder why people get into discussions about the war with the likes of Good_Golly FKA Cold_Hard_Left, AKA Jason Hendler and Fairy Dust.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:01 pmThis number also includes word of mouth tabulations, the “I saw American soldiers kill twenty people†statements that are consistently swallowed.
And also if an Iraqi suicide bomber walks into a crowd, they count the bomber and the victims. No word yet if suicide bombings in other ME countries are tallied into this number.
Comment by Fairy Duster
Do you care to back this up with evidence Jason? Just because you say something does not make it true. Back up your statement with a link that proves it to be true. Until then, it’s just more BS coming out of the mouth of a neo-con troll.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:02 pm#72 - considering that Saddam was the bestest buddy of the heroes of the Right during the worst periods of his reign, I doubt you’ll find any conservative vigils for Iraq’s victims.
What you will find is a long history of advocacy on the left to stop the US from funding and doing business with Saddam long before he was stupid enough to think “We have no opinion on how you settle your slant-drilling dispute with Kuwait” was the official US go-ahead for war.
Funny how Saddam’s victims only mattered to the right when a pretext was needed decades later.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:02 pmI just talked with a soldier (marine colonel) who was in Iraq 3 weeks ago. According to him, the surge is/has worked. But, during the conversation, he changed my opinion about the persecution of the war, more than anyone else has. I’ll put it in context, if anyone cares.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — January 2, 2008 @ 12:38 pm
chuck, i think you prosecution.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:03 pmIts the tearful hand-wringers who are trying to convince everyone else of their bedrock solidarity with the downtrodden Iraqi people.
Nope, ain’t buying it.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 1:00 pm
You mean like this?
The nightmare that Saddam Hussein has brought to your nation will soon be over. You are a good and gifted people – the heirs of a great civilisation that contributes to all humanity. You deserve better than tyranny and corruption and torture chambers. You deserve to live as free people. And I assure every citizen of Iraq: your nation will soon be free.
You mean, that kind of “bedrock solidarity with the downtrodden Iraqi people”?
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:04 pmFlag John Kerry and Fairy Duster…..they have been outed. We do not need or want thier input here.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:06 pmYou heard it here first: AQ in Iraq does exist. Just want to point that out in reference to the ThinkFast thread where Obama’s idea to chase AQ elements in Pakistan was supported as smart policy.
Comment by Fairy Duster
The supposed AQI has absolutely nothing to do with AQ in Pakistan, so why are you trying to conflate the two? The only proof that AQI exists is because our government says it does and some insurgents in Iraq are happy to be called AQ because they think it makes them bigger and badder.
You know Jason, you aren’t doing any better as Fairy than you did as Jason. Why don’t you just pack it in and go over to Redstate where they will love you. But, I recommend you change your moniker back to Jason before you go to Redstate. They might not react in a positive manner to having a Fairy posting to their site.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:07 pmnext time I hear someone like Obama or Biden start talking about using military force or sending in the troops, I will recall your painful words and fervently hope that you are working to see them removed from public office.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 1:05 pm
(Sigh…) Yet one more example of the nuance-challenged right-wing mind.
For Fairy Dust, apparently to judge that the invasion of Iraq was a tragic strategic error and enormous waste of resources is the same thing as denouncing all miltary action.
Thus, to Fairy Dust, support for a justifiable action (Afghanistan) coexisting with opposition to an unjustifiable action (Iraq) is evidence of hypocrisy.
The simple, simple mind of “Fairy Dust” reminds me of someone… not exactly sure who…
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:10 pmWaiting for the actual breakdown as to how many “civilians” were killed by the enemy the U.S. or just normal murders.
Any idiot will know that, in a war zone, there will be cilivilans killed which of course is unfortunate but would any of you libs please tell us how many of the “civilians” killed were because of the war?? Good luck! And actually, to you all, it doesn’t matter because the more killings the more you wackos think it will help you get back power in ‘08. Really sick!
UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:11 pmFairy Duster is hi-jacking your threads…..this is what he does. You must not engage him/her or any troll as that is how they divert the discussion away from facts. Flag them as soon as they are recognized….they do not belong here as they are not contributing to the discussion. Their objective is to disrupt. I for one am tired of it. If I wanted to hear what they have to say I would tune in to faux neus.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:14 pmabout the persecution of the war,
Comment by CaptainMantastic — January 2, 2008 @ 12:38 pm
Was that freudian, or what!??
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:16 pmComment by ralph the wonder llama — January 2, 2008 @ 1:04 pm
Nope, I mean your average (and I do mean average) everyday lib who tearfully moans about the poor Iraqi people being savaged by the American whip, libs who couldn’t have been bothered with Iraq before 2003.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 1:11 pm
Oh, I see. It’s another case of IOKIYAR.
And another case of concocting an imaginary “avergare lib” and basing one’s argument on that straw man.
And another case of pretending that opposition to the actions of one’s own government must somehow be matched by opposition to the actions of another government in which we have no stake nor responsibility, or else be labeled “hypocrisy”.
Damn. I take it back. You’re not as simple-minded as I thought. You’ve got multiple facets of illogic going on here.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:17 pmNow all you need to do is figure out how many of those Iraqi bodies were terrorists.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 12:55 pm
Well they have brown skin so they’re all terrorists to you right Fairy Busted.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:18 pmYa can’t make a huge omelette without breaking lots of eggs, ya know?
Comment by Badmoodman
No, but you can break lots of eggs without making an omelette.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:20 pmWait, don’t tell me, CNN or AlJ?
Comment by Fairy Duster
No Jason, try this:
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/ pipa/ articles/ home_page/ 165.php?nid=&id=&pnt=165&lb=hmpg2
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:20 pmTHEY JUST CANNOT GET ENOUGH DEATH!
…An Associated Press poll in February found that the average American believed about 9,900 Iraqis had been killed since the end of major combat operations in 2003. Recent evidence suggests that things in Iraq may be 100 times worse than Americans realize.
…Finally, last month, the respected British polling firm ORB released the results of a poll estimating that 22 percent of households had lost a member to violence during the occupation of Iraq, equating to 1.2 million deaths.
…So multiple polls and scientific surveys all suggest the official figures and media-based estimates in Iraq have missed 70 percent to 95 percent of all deaths. The evidence suggests that the extent of underreporting by the media is only increasing with time.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/ne…..6773.story
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:20 pmThese feeble tinkerbelle attempts to justify the continued occupation by inferring that AIQ must be stopped by killing them all are typical of the parrots that infest this site.
No real logic, just slogans, swaggering and bushlicking.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:21 pmNow all you need to do is find a definition of “justifiable†that everyone can agree on, since there are quite a few on your side of the aisle who wouldn’t agree that invasion and occupation in response to 911 was “justifiableâ€.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 1:17 pm
No, fairy, I don’t need to find a definition of “justifiable” that “everyone can agree on”.
All I need to do is demonstrate that to a reasonable person, one action is justifiable while another is not.
You insinuate that support for one is de facto inconsistent with opposition to the other. You are wrong. You appear to think that your wrongness serves your argument, but it really doesn’t. In fact, it severely undercuts it by exposing your lack of critical thinking skills, or at least your lack of discipline in following that critical thinking.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:22 pmA woman’s place is in the kitchen. This is not a kitchen.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 1:20 pm
Nor is it a place where sexist crap is tolerated.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:22 pmA woman’s place is in the kitchen. This is not a kitchen.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 1:20
Oh morning CT, you and Mr. Pesident (John Kerry) posting from your Motel 6 bed again?
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:24 pmThis isn’ about supporting the ‘downtrodden…’
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:24 pmIt’s about an illegal invasion and occupation of a soveriegn country based on lies and fabricated evidence.
add CaptainMantastic to the list to flag as a troll.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:25 pmWaiting for the actual breakdown as to how many “civilians†were killed by the enemy the U.S. or just normal murders.
The second peer-reviewed Lancet/Johns Hopkins study of excess deaths found a couple years ago found about 200,000 dead from direct US military action, 400,000 from inter-Iraqi sectarian violence, and about 50,000 deaths from indirect causes, such as disease from war-related destruction of infrastructure. Of the 200,000 we killed directly, slightly less than half were from airstrikes, the rest from small arms. Among the inter-Iraqi violence, bombs and small arms claimed on the order of equal numbers.
So for every 13 killed, assuming these ratios hold, 8 are from inter-Iraqi violence, 4 are from us, and 1 from the privations of war.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:25 pmWhat kind of truth do you have if you won’t consider a dissenting view? It’s not rational.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — January 2, 2008 @ 1:21 pm
Who said we don’t want to “consider a dissenting view”?
Or do you equate the sloppy, uneducated and largely incoherent ramblings of the two posters mentioned as the “dissenting view”?
Because I consider them sorry wastes of good bandwidth.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:26 pmFlag John Kerry and Fairy Duster…..they have been outed. We do not need or want thier input here.
Comment by Fred — January 2, 2008 @ 1:06 pm
What kind of truth do you have if you won’t consider a dissenting view? It’s not rational.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — January 2, 2008 @ 1:21 pm
Cap’n you want to align yourself with CT and Mr. President you go for it. See what it gets you.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:27 pmComment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 1:23 pm
I see you’ve chosen to provide further evidence of your inability to follow or construct a reasoned argument.
Not that much more evidence was needed. I think the book is pretty much closed on that one.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:29 pmSo we have 3 identified so far as trolls:
John Kerry
CaptainMantastic
Fairy Duster
flag them as the trolls they are and keep track. If they come back using a different username…identify them and out them.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:29 pmIt must be “Outrage of the Day†time here at Think Progress.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 1:25 pm
Oh Fairy you’re so clever when you’re in love. After all Virginia is for Lovers, right?
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:29 pmWe overthrew the legal, constituted government of a sovereign nation in our attempt to kill or capture members of a non-state terrorist group. Nice.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 1:29
You do know there were no terrorists in Iraq until we got there, don’t you?
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:31 pmSo what is the problem TP? We can’t have a discussion because these aholes keep us off topic with their childisness and rudeness. Please do something about it.
Ban the trolls. They contribute nothing.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:32 pmBut anti-religious crap is tolerated just fine.
Comment by good_golly — January 2, 2008 @ 1:29 pm
So the question to expectant mothers should be are you having a boy or a girl or a Christian now?
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:32 pmWe overthrew the legal, constituted government of a sovereign nation in our attempt to kill or capture members of a non-state terrorist group. Nice.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 1:29 pm
Why, Fairy! I had no idea you were a terrorist sympathizer!
Tell me, exactly why do you want the terrorists to win?
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:34 pmSo you libs want a site that only reflects your ignorant, cowardly views!!
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:35 pmFairy, when you have “bested” me, I will freely admit it.
However, it would take a significant upgrade in your level of reasoning, debate and expression for that to happen.
Paying attention to and actually addressing the arguments of the other party would be a good start. I know it’s intimidating for you, but you gotta begin somewhere.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:36 pmI’m beginning to wonder just whom the Iraqi people now label as the “terrorists”???? Could be us.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:38 pmTry to understand the context even though it may hurt your head. Its the tearful hand-wringers who are trying to convince everyone else of their bedrock solidarity with the downtrodden Iraqi people.
Nope, ain’t buying it.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 1:00 pm
Oh bullsh*t. After 9/11 it was our job to go in and free the Iraqi people from an evil dictator, whose actions against his own people didn’t exactly start on 9/12/2001. He was such a bad man, he had to go. So I want to know where the tears were from the current members of the Bush Administration pre-election 2000?
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:38 pmYou do know that, if such were true, Iraq would be the only nation in the ME which didn’t have terrorists in it, the ONLY one, don’t you?
Regardless, we overthrew the Afghan government in our attempt to eradicate a non-state affiliated terrorist group.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 1:34 pm
Actually, Iraq had the PKK and the MeKh before we invaded, so it’s not true that Iraq didn’t have terrorists before we showed up.
Also - the Taliban was not a legitimate government of Afghanistan, they were mostly Pakistani, not Afghan, and their “government” was not officially recognized by most of the world.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:39 pmSo you libs want a site that only reflects your ignorant, cowardly views!!
Comment by John Kerry — January 2, 2008 @ 1:35 pm
No - we don’t mind dissent. We have disagreements among ourselves often, and discuss them intelligently. What we don’t want is you morons polluting the site with crap solely for the purpose of disrupting and derailing discussion.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:41 pmSo you libs want a site that only reflects your ignorant, cowardly views!!
Comment by John Kerry — January 2, 2008 @ 1:35 pm
Well, Troll JK, considering that the only “ignorant, cowardly views” expressed here come from you and Fairy and the like, I’d say that’s a big fat NO.
Most of us would appreciate honest well-thought-out opposing views, but they are few and far between among righties who choose to post here. The Captain tries, and sometimes succeeds, and there have been others in the past. But mostly it’s clowns like you and Southern Man and Hill Billy coming here and making the political-blog equivalent of a crank call.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:42 pmYou do know there were no terrorists in Iraq until we got there, don’t you?
Comment by Shayne — January 2, 2008 @ 1:31 pm
You do know that, if such were true, Iraq would be the only nation in the ME which didn’t have terrorists in it, the ONLY one, don’t you?
Regardless, we overthrew the Afghan government in our attempt to eradicate a non-state affiliated terrorist group.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 1:34 pm
Exactly. There had been no bombings at all until we got there. Not one. So why did we go in then? No WMDs no 9/11 perpetrators from there and yet we’re there. Still. Go figure.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:43 pmSo you libs want a site that only reflects your ignorant, cowardly views!!
Comment by John Kerry — January 2, 2008 @ 1:35 pm
No we want a site without your lies and misinterpretations, Mr. President.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:44 pmI don’t like it when obvious republicans take over and dominate the conversation and say things like this:
Which I can assure you he/she would not say to my face because these types are basically afraid and must strike from an anonymous position.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:44 pm#84 Jason, your post makes no sense whatsoever. Supporting a war (forgotten by republicans as it were) in Afghanistan, a war that has a definite reason for having occurred, is vastly different from simply loving to fight illogical wars, I mean having others fight those illogical wars for you. You see as you miss or ignore my point (no surprise) I am indulging in what I railed against, and that is direct debate with a moron with a one track mind and little else.
But my point was that you all simply love war for war’s sake. It is why you all seem to detest anyone who advocates peace. It is why you all detest anyone who is looking to end the war. It is why you all seem to have a deep hatred for anyone who wants to refocus our energy’s on eliminating the real AlQueda. You see AQI is simply a bunch of douche bags in Iraq who have called themselves Al Queda. They are not really associated with the Al Queda we were actually after and once we leave, they will cease to exist and the Sunni/Shiite Civil war can continue. All AQI did when they called themselves that is give thhe president political cover, nothing else. It is akin to some punk in my small town calling himself a crip and having the mayor and police chief apply for millions in federal funds to fight the dreaded gang, even though it has no actual relation to the crips we all know and love.
But I would not expect you to understand this or to even care one bit. You can dismiss it as the liberal media Bush bashing, but I heard it from the military (not the political cover part, the AQI not being associated with the Real Al Queda part). But that was long before the surge to rid Iraq of AQ…which by the way is being done by arming the Sunni’s who last year we were calling Al Queda.
But to answer your illogical un thought out unrelated question, no I am not in Afghanistan. I got out of the military back in 1989. But I would assume by your overriding support for the war that you are bogging from Iraq and you have encouraged your friends to sign up with you as well as attending college republican meetings to get those strapping your patriots serving along side you. After all it is usually CR types who say this is the greatest threat to ever face our nation, so one would logically assume that they would put protecting our nation at the top of their priority list as you I’m sure have already done…now please follow with the obligatory I served post…
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:45 pmApparently not even that anymore, at least in California and according to California Senate Bill 777.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 1:37 pm
Luckily for you you’ll never make it out of Virginia CT so you don’t have to worry about any California resolutions. And you can keep telling women to stay in the kitchen all you want. There will never be one in your house anyway, except for that crack whore mother of yours.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:47 pmWe have been forced to listen to the right wing interpretation of how things are for long enough. I for one am tired of thier opinion. They have proven only that they know very little actually….yet they still think we have to listen to them….how sad for them really……
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:48 pmTell me, exactly why do you not care about Afghan civilians?
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 1:45 pm
I’ve criticized the conduct of the war in Afghanistan and the high “collateral damage” death toll many times. Argument destroyed.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:48 pmYou and yours didn’t give one flying crap about Iraqis before the troops arrived; trying to convince anyone otherwise is useless.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 1:41 pm
Because numbnutz before we got there they weren’t the people in most need of our help. We created the problem and the need for concern. I can’t believe this is difficult for even an homeschooled flunky like you to comprehend.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:49 pm#131 Also - the Taliban was not a legitimate government of Afghanistan, they were mostly Pakistani, not Afghan,
Not quite - they were Peshtun, which is the majority ethnic group in Afgahnistan, and a minority ethnic group in Pakistan, though they control large swaths of thinly-populated land. Many did train in Pakistan, and received aid from the Paki intelligence services.
The Norther Alliance were made up of various Turkic groups, a minority in Afghanistan.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:49 pmAll you are is talk. Just like all your repug buddies who drum up a nighmare war where millions die and for what……while you do nothing..including serve.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:51 pmWe overthrew the legal, constituted government of a sovereign nation in our attempt to kill or capture members of a non-state terrorist group. Nice.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 1:29 pm
Go into your way back machine to Jan- Feb 2003, and you tell us the reasons we invaded Iraq.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:51 pmTell me, exactly why do you not care about Afghan civilians?
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 1:45 pm
No you tell us why you pretend to care about any brown people when you don’t. You care about nobody but yourself so don’t act like you understand our concern for what the Iraqi people are going through because W decided to fight invade their country. You are unable to feel anything like empathy and that’s why you’re a Republican.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:52 pmThe one thing the republicans can do is divide people and they are hard at work here.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:53 pmReferences to “crack whore mothers†must make for scintillating dinner-table conversations. Hubby must be proud on the choice he made for his wife.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 1:52 pm
Oh CT you were the one who insists all mothers are vile based on your own experience. You’re the kid who outed your mother, don’t blame us for remembering your wounded psyche.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:54 pmFairy Duster is hi-jacking your threads
Fairy Duster is Jason and is here strictly to disrupt. It would be nice if all of us would commit to just ignoring the twit. The problem is that one person gets into it with him and then others jump on the bandwagon.
January 2nd, 2008 at 1:57 pmSorry bilbo but I believe Fairy Duster is CT and John Kerry is is little buddy Mr. President and tehy won’t just go away until they’re kicked out of here. The wise thing would be for regular posters to report them and then maybe they’ll be out of here for awhile.
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:00 pmYou can speak for yourself but I have seen what fairyduster is up to…let me make myself perfectly clear. I have been forced to listen to what repubs think about how things are for the last several years and I am tired of it and not in the least interested in what they think about anything. They have been in power and have been telling us how it is and making the decisions and they have totally f-ed it up…no one will even argue that point I’m sure.
We have plenty to talk about but we don’t need the repub point of view anymore…it has been proven to be a failed policy…..economically as well as every other way, so why would I want to hear from them anymore? I want progressive ideas now….their day is over soon and they just haven’t accepted that fact yet. Just like all those here in the forumns…we know who they are and what they stand for.
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:05 pmAt least I am honest about my concern. You dress yours up.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 2:01 pm
That’s right you’re a proud Republican and it’s a badge of honor to care for no one but yourself among your people. I guess you selfish war mongering folks are unable to understand that others might care about their fellow human beings of all colors. It’s not part of the Republican DNA obviously.
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:06 pmRegardless, we overthrew the Afghan government in our attempt to eradicate a non-state affiliated terrorist group.
Comment by Fairy Duster
Thanks for recognizing that you have broken international law and acted like a terrorist state.
Well, we non-US citizens, always knew that, but it is a good thing that you catch up with the world.
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:08 pmWhat? No more paper-tiger statements? I live and work in Pensacola, NATTC, and would be happy to have a face to face with you anytime you muster up the courage. I will even give you the exact address where you can find me and arrange for you to get through the base entrance.
Now go hide.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 2:06 pm
What’s up CT aren’t you deaf any more?
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:08 pmI will even give you the exact address where you can find me and arrange for you to get through the base entrance.
Comment by Fairy Duster
There is sure a lot of free time in the base.
Besides is such a good idea to go to the base and ask for Fairy Duster.
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:09 pmMy post #156 goes to barfly too who tried to defend fairy duster to me….I don’t care how long you have been here. If these trolls being here are ok with you then we have a problem. I’m not interested in thier opinion…..their objective is to disrupt…period.
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:10 pm#156: I have been forced to listen to what repubs think about how things are for the last several years and I am tired of it and not in the least interested in what they think about anything.
I might be more interested if what they had to say had any connection to objective reality; starting from the same reality, we could have legitimate differences to approaches. But because the repubs are in denial of reality, there’s no arguing rationally with the delusional.
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:13 pmWhere’s this address fairy duster? I’m packing
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:15 pmActually I believe the Afghan invasion was accorded “permission†from the United Nations, though referencing the U.N. makes me feel icky.
Comment by Fairy Duster
I agree, Iraq was bombed and the UN did a lot to stop that. I think it is really weird that the UN headquarters are in the US. Guess that sums up, who tells the rules.
You might want to be careful though, juan, plenty of non-Americans are desperately trying to come here and they may not agree with your opinion of us.
Comment by Fairy Duster
Yeah, they are looking for friends…
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:15 pmComment by Juan C. — January 2, 2008 @ 2:08 pm
Actually I believe the Afghan invasion was accorded “permission†from the United Nations, though referencing the U.N. makes me feel icky.
You mean, because the UN is an organization to advance peace? I see.
You might want to be careful though, juan, plenty of non-Americans are desperately trying to come here and they may not agree with your opinion of us.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 2:11 pm
Too bad Iraqi refugees aren’t allowed to the USA.
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:16 pmYou and freddy can make a joint appointment with me, I will give you the dates I am assigned and you just show up and ask for the duty P.O. and they will contact me.
Comment by Fairy Duster
Guess ideas don’t suffice…
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:16 pmHi, Juan! :)
I don’t know if my answer to you about Messi and the FCB passed the filters, I did read it when I wrote it, but after that, I’be been incapable of finding the thread :D
ES
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:18 pmWhat kind of truth do you have if you won’t consider a dissenting view? It’s not rational.
Comment by CaptainMantastic
I have no problem with dissenting views if they aren’t a bunch of horse pucky RNC talking points. All of them have long since been debunked. If you want to come here and prove your point with documentation, I am more than willing to listen to you. But you and the other RNC trolls come here day after day saying the same BS and you somehow expect us to start believing you and join your party line. If you want people to agree with you, go to Redstate.
Your “dissenting views” has done nothing but expose you as a black-hearted human being who cares about no one but yourself. I hope some day when you need help, some other neoCON turns their back on you so that you will get a dose of your own medicine. In the meantime, there’s a special place in hell waiting for all of you.
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:18 pmI encased it in blockquote tags. when you go to leave a comment see the formatting options you have to use a close tag at the end and without the backslash at the beginning like this……
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:19 pmComment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 2:17 pm
Clearly this guy is a Republican, when he can’t win in a intellect fight, he resorts to his fists…
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:20 pmJe. Está bien, la verdad no me acuerdo de cuál era. Pero la cosa no anda bien para el Barcelona, mientras el Madrid se las ingenia para estar allà arriba sin jugar bien.
Según me acuerdo no eras fanático del fútbol, pero bueh, era una pregunta causal. :)
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:21 pmhealth clinic…..heh that explains it
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:23 pmComment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 2:20 pm
But Bush is touting the case of Lybia as one of victory against terrorism, thanks to the invasion of Iraq, that means that they’re a peaceful, isn’t?
Or is simply the USA cozing yet again with a dictator to advance its policy?
Will become Ghadaffi the Saddam of tomorrow?
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:24 pmClearly this guy is a Republican, when he can’t win in a intellect fight, he resorts to his fists…
Comment by Evil Spaniard
One of the things I was amazed after 2004 elections and after the site: sorryeverybody.com was launched, was the response of the people that had voted for Bush. They launched another site whose name I don’t recall, but was something like: sorry my ass.
The vast majority of people in that site had the face covered and some of them held guns to the camera…that tells something about Bush followers…violent and cowards.
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:24 pmThe men of Sbrenica can attest to that.
Comment by Fairy Duster
You mean, before or after NATO bombing everybody?
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:25 pmComment by Juan C. — January 2, 2008 @ 2:21 pm
Well, in short I said the FCB is in a crisis, because Ronaldinho is also being scrutinized for his bad results, and a party at Brazil with other brazilian players, who made it lose a club’s concentration meeting… most probably Ronaldinho will be for sale next year…
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:27 pmCaptain,
I won’t give up until this troll leaves. If he is going to hijack every thread then he is going to be called on it. If progressives cannot have a progressive discussion without him disrupting then we shall address it until he leaves……we will not have any discussion and so he is wasting his time.
He talks big but the reality is that he says things here that he would not say in public, in front of witnesses. I think he is a skinhead.
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:32 pmI was referring to Afghanistan, blocky, now get up to speed or shut it.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 1:53 pm
Oh, crap tinkerbelle, my mistake thinking you were staying on topic.
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:33 pm;
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:33 pmClearly this guy is a Republican, when he can’t win in a intellect fight, he resorts to his fists…
Comment by Evil Spaniard — January 2, 2008 @ 2:20 pm
Maybe you need to read more than the last five posts, clearly you are a democrat because context has failed you.
Ol’ fred there posited a statement earlier that I and others wouldn’t be willing to voice our opinions to his face. I challenged him on it and now he doesn’t like the idea so much.
Context, young lady, context.
Comment by Fairy Duster — January 2, 2008 @ 2:22 pm
Well, first, frankly, I don’t have a special need to be labelled “Democrat” for good or bad, simply because I’m not a USA national, and the Democrat Party doesn’t fits in my ideology either. So you can save your diatribe against Democrats here.
And, second, I’m judging from your whole posting history (with this alias) i.e. 2 days. And judging by your whole (with all alias) history at TP, you’re a moron with an inflated ego.
Whole history, chickenhawk, whole history. If you don’t know the whole history, you can’t frame the context…
I’ll repeat again, I’m not speaking only of your last feather ruffling with Fred, but your whole gung-ho attitude.
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:35 pmLooks like somebody blew the Fairy Dust away.
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:40 pmhe’s not really gung ho……he’s in Pensacola……not anywhere where there is any danger…probably some (republican)senators son.
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:40 pmLooks like somebody blew the Fairy Dust away.
Comment by Shayne
Maybe Peter Pan grew up.
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:42 pmShayne ~ GRTBR!
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:42 pmAnd Captain Mantastic this site is for progressives if you don’t like the way it’s run, nobody really cares. We know what you people think, if that’s what you call it, and we’re sick of hearing it. If you’re unhappy take it down the road because we’re not here so trolls can earn their dirty money wasting our time.
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:43 pmComment by CaptainMantastic — January 2, 2008 @ 2:09 pm
Captain, I have given you your share of abuse when I thought you deserved it, but I don’t lump you in with Jason/c_h_l/Fairy, or with JK or Frank or SM or the other trolls.
Speaking personally, the reason I didn’t respond to your post @ 12:38 was because it seemed out of the blue, and while intriguing in its own way, not really relevant to the thread the way you framed it.
I see why you draw the conclusion you draw, but it’s not really evidence that we don’t appreciate dissenting views, now, is it?
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:43 pmRUC, GRTBR?
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:43 pmAlso Captain Mantastic it appears that one of Fairy Dusts last acts was to namejack you. Maybe you should report him because I’m not wasting any time on you when you chose to defend the two guys CT and Mr. President who tried to bring this site to a standstill.
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:45 pmYou and yours didn’t give one flying crap about Iraqis before the troops arrived; trying to convince anyone otherwise is useless.
Comment by Fairy Duster
This brings up a question I have had for some time. Exactly when did you right-wing, extremists become so concerned with the welfare of the Iraqi people, above all other peoples on Earth? On what day did you suddenly wake up, and say to yourself, “We must invade Iraq for the good of our beloved Iraqis”? Were you born with this overpowering love of the Iraqis, or did you learn your devotion to them at a later point in your lives?
Was it in February of 1963, when the CIA supported and aided a coup d’état against Prime Minister Abd al-Karim Qasim in Iraq, and had a Baathist thug known as Saddam Hussein assasinate him, because he sought to nationalize the oil industry for the benefit of the Iraqi people, not Western superpowers?
Or, perhaps it was in April 1966, when the CIA had Iraqi President Abdul Salam Arif killed in a mysterious plane crash.
Or, maybe it was July 17, 1968, when the CIA helped the Baathists overthrow Arif’s brother, President Abdul Rahman Mohammad, and installed Ahmad Hasan al-Bakr as dictator.
Or, could it even have been July July 1979, when Saddam Hussein took over for his CIA backed friend as dictator?
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:49 pmFor the record. When engaging fairy duster I mentioned that he would not say those kinds of things to my face. By that I meant that he would surely be too civilized to actually say those kinds of things out loud in public. Examples:
That civility would demand better standards but I forget who has raised these hellions……we are paying still for the Reagun era now. When mom’s had to go to work……remember. I don’t love republicans but fighting was not my initial response….seemed to be dusters jarhead reaction though. Exactly why I don’t welcome his opinion.
Republicans do not have the answers. We need to have the discussion among ourselves as to how to proceed but we do not need their opinion on anything. We have seen the result.
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:58 pmMy post #156 goes to barfly too who tried to defend fairy duster to me….I don’t care how long you have been here. If these trolls being here are ok with you then we have a problem. I’m not interested in thier opinion…..their objective is to disrupt…period.
Comment by Fred
I was only talking about the ThinkFast thread, which is customarily a free-for-all. If Dusty is making a nuisance on other threads, then flag him - but Thinkfast has always been whack-a-troll territory.
January 2nd, 2008 at 3:23 pm“He was there 3 weeks ago and is going back. If his first hand account of the situation (or life) in Iraq is not relavent, then what would be?”
Comment by CaptainMantastic —
His take on the current political impasse in the Iraqi government would be more relevent.
January 2nd, 2008 at 3:24 pmThe entire reason for even bringing up the subject of deaths in Iraq is pitifully obvious, as if increased deaths in war (whether “civilian” or soldiers) means that we’re losing this war.
Even the lib media and your leaders in your far out party admit that we are (God forbid!) WINNING! Of course the REAL left wing regressives like those reading this hate it and are now changing their own benchmarks for achieving VICTORY by saying that the military achivement means nothing but it’s the political one that needs to be won! Well…DUH! that’s obvious but usually the military win comes first!
It has to be really maddening to be a lib these days. And the very possible Rep win in ‘08 has to drive you left nutters out of your minds!!!!
UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
January 2nd, 2008 at 3:34 pmAnd your right, if we as a generation decide to make the world safe from terror, we should pay for it. You have changed my mind. Thank you.
Comment by CaptainMantastic
My children and grandchildren would thank you, but it’s too late for that now. They get to pay for it, if they can.
January 2nd, 2008 at 3:37 pmWas it in February of 1963, when the CIA supported and aided a coup d’état against Prime Minister Abd al-Karim Qasim in Iraq, and had a Baathist thug known as Saddam Hussein assasinate him, because he sought to nationalize the oil industry for the benefit of the Iraqi people, not Western superpowers?
Comment by shoeless — January 2, 2008 @ 2:49 pm
Good post overall, but you’re confusing two separate events here.
Saddam Hussein was hired and trained by the CIA to assassinate Qassim in 1959, but he missed his target, was injured during the attempt, and fled to Syria for a few years. A 1963 U.S.-sponsored coup by the Ba’ath party successfuly overthrew Qassim, who was then tried and executed in a show trial.
January 2nd, 2008 at 3:42 pmAnd he also left me with an impression that it was the money and not lofty ideas of democracy that is behind the relative calm.
Comment by CaptainMantastic
Why is it, that for the past few months, every daily story of some horrific act of incredible violence in Iraq is prefaced with the phrase “The relative calm in Iraq was shattered today by…”?
January 2nd, 2008 at 3:43 pmGood post overall, but you’re confusing two separate events here.
Saddam Hussein was hired and trained by the CIA to assassinate Qassim in 1959, but he missed his target, was injured during the attempt, and fled to Syria for a few years. A 1963 U.S.-sponsored coup by the Ba’ath party successfuly overthrew Qassim, who was then tried and executed in a show trial.
Comment by toasterhead
Thank you, I stand corrected. Such a tangled web they wove.
January 2nd, 2008 at 3:45 pmThanks for the perspective, Cap’n. I see where your conversation with that Marine officer could be relevant. It’s just that the way you framed it, it sounded OT.
Now, as a sharp contrast in the way “dissenting views” are offered on TP, Troll JK submits another “argument” that relies on such insights as:
It has to be really maddening to be a lib these days. And the very possible Rep win in ‘08 has to drive you left nutters out of your minds!!!!
And, of course, his point is driven home by typing “Unbelieveable” in all caps, followed by several dozen exclamation points.
Is that the kind of “dissenting view” you meant to include, Cap’n? Because personally, I found JK’s argument uncompelling. Maybe if he’d used a few more exclamation points?
January 2nd, 2008 at 3:47 pmThank you, I stand corrected. Such a tangled web they wove.
Comment by shoeless — January 2, 2008 @ 3:45 pm
Indeed. It’s dizzying trying to fathom it all.
January 2nd, 2008 at 3:51 pmIt’s a good thing we’re winning.
January 2nd, 2008 at 3:54 pmIt has to be really maddening to be a lib these days. And the very possible Rep win in ‘08 has to drive you left nutters out of your minds!!!!
UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Comment by John Kerry — January 2, 2008 @ 3:34 pm
A republican win in ‘08? now we know you’re really out of touch with reality. Not a chance, even with your thievery, SCOTUS and racist dirty tricks. You’re all done, jk, you’re just too stupid to know it.
January 2nd, 2008 at 3:58 pmeven if the surge is finally working, which is doubtful, but possible, it will never excuse the war crimes of the USA against the people of Iraq. We have lost this war, no matter what happens, and we have lost our moral underpinnings, as tenuous as they were. America is now a world-class terrorist state, a shame that will be on republican backs forever. Bush is the world’s filthiest, lowest terrorist, and the republicans have their albatross for the next several decades. Running against Bush will mean Dem wins for a long time.
January 2nd, 2008 at 4:03 pmIndeed. It’s dizzying trying to fathom it all.
Comment by toasterhead
I guess that’s why you will never hear a neocon ever even acknowledge the decades long manipulation of Iraq by the US, which led to the takeover by Saddam Hussein, much less try to fathom it all. I always thought they ignored US responsibility for the Ba’athist dictatorship merely because such facts did not fit their claims of self-righteousness in the invasion. But perhaps, the whole affair is also just to complicated for their narrow little minds to contemplate.
Better for them to ignore those messy episodes and pretend that we are the good guys.
January 2nd, 2008 at 4:10 pmHow long would Jeebus occupy Iraq?
January 2nd, 2008 at 4:45 pmI think something missing from this debate is the take on conditions there. Those in favor of Bush and his policies cite the stability of the area. Is it really stable? From what I read the US deaths and injuries are down to the level they were at one year ago or so. One year ago or so the American public determined that the situation was so out of hand that they voted the republicans into minority status. So for republicans stability is conditions equal to what cost them control of both houses of congress? I don’t think so…the press and the public are giving the administration a relative free pass on this one.
Also what has caused this relative stability? The right would say the surge. The military has said that it is them arming the Sunni’s to aid in our battle against AQI or other Sunnis. So we arm them, and move out of their area’s and thus it causes stability equal to last years chaos? OK it works for some. What else happened? By all accounts that I have garnered listening to military press conferences it appears that the Shiites and Sunnis are essentially separated in Baghdad now. I guess there is no need for more sectarian cleansing? Ok that works for relative stability. What else has occurred? Moqtadar (sp?) has had his Mahdi Army stand down for now. Ok that adds stability, though in reality the people attacking US Troops were mainly Sunnis, our new friends. All of these things have combined to create a situation where the US death count is back down to last years unacceptable levels. Therefore we are stable and winning?
But what were the goals of the surge? Have we met those? I don’t recall that decreasing violence was one of the goals. If I am not mistaken the goals are still unmet and very distant. In addition we now have Turkey occasionally invading Iraq. We have essentially three countries, which the White House had insisted for years was an unacceptable situation. Have they changed their minds on this? Did they tell anybody? Also we now have 160,000+ troops and at least that many mercenaries over there, more than ever before. Where are the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi troops we have trained? When are they taking control of their security? How can anyone realistically call this a success with victory right around the corner?
“By the way I talked to a general who just returned home the other day and he said it was going to hell in a handbag over there. I think it was a Prada handbag, but I’m not sure. Moral is high with our troops, but it is also high with the insurgents. he said AQI has never been an issue and that the contractors screw up every good thing the tro