McCain: ‘I Dont Think Americans Are Concerned’ If We Stay In Iraq For ‘10,000 Years’
McCain: ‘I Dont Think Americans Are Concerned’ If We Stay In Iraq For ‘10,000 Years’
Last week, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) said it “would be fine with” him if the U.S. military stayed in Iraq for “a hundred years” or even a “million years.”
Fifty-nine percent say the U.S. should “stick to a withdrawal timetable” instead of keeping “a significant number of troops in Iraq until the situation there gets better, even if that takes many years.”
But on CBS’s Face the Nation, McCain claimed that Americans would not be “concerned” if the U.S. spends “10,000 years” in Iraq:
The point is it’s American casualties. We’ve go to get American’s off the frontlines, have the Iraqis as part of the strategy, take over more and more of the responsibilities, and then I don’t think Americans are concerned if we’re there for one hundred years or a thousand years or ten thousand years.
Watch it:
As Crooks and Liars notes, on NBC’s Meet the Press, McCain further expressed his desire for a permanent Iraq occupation, going as far as to suggest that he supports “permanent bases” in the country:
RUSSERT: Would you have permanent bases?
McCAIN: If that seems to be necessary in some respects. It depends on the threat.
Not long ago, McCain felt very differently about occupying Iraq. In November, he told Charlie Rose that arguing that a South Korea-like presence is not an “analogy” he would use for Iraq. On June 10, 2007, McCain told George Stephanopolous that he opposes permanent bases:
STEPHANOPOULOS: So no permanent bases?
McCAIN: No, not forever, but certainly, we would be there for a long period of time in a support role, in many ways.
But by McCain’s logic, 10,000 or even one million years is not “forever.”
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This American is very concerned for the sake of his children and grandchildren–out now!
January 6th, 2008 at 12:12 pmThis will be a significant differentiator between Reps and Dems in the 2008 election. Topics like healthcare, environment, etc., are going to be completely ignored.
Basicly, the leading nominees better state their economic policies moving forward, because it will be economic plans, and stance on the War in Iraq that will determine the winner.
January 6th, 2008 at 12:12 pm“..I don’t think Americans are concerned if we’re there for one hundred years or a thousand years or ten thousand years. ”
So Shaddam IV will still keep troops in Iraq?
January 6th, 2008 at 12:12 pmso what mccain is saying is that Americans don’t give a rats ass about the $billions, and ultimately the cool $trillion (AT LEAST) that mccain’s illegal unnecessary criminal invasion will cost our grand children or the lost opportunity cost of that $trillion that could have provided universal healthcare, education, and countless other humanitarian actions in desperate short supply for the needy of the entire world (not just the US) for a very very long time. Chief republican loon mccain is as big a criminal as the rest.
The bush/cheney/neocon/mccain abomination in Iraq is crime against humanity of immense proportions. All its instigators and prolongers should have long ago been tried and be in jail by now.
January 6th, 2008 at 12:15 pm.
#3, RickS,
It is the Padashah Emporer’s perogative to send Saudaker anywhere he pleases, so long as the Guild and Choam buy in.
January 6th, 2008 at 12:15 pmInsane McCain. Only nine hundred and ninety six years to go on the Thousand Year BushReich Imperial Occupation of Iraq. Two (too) insane war mongers for the price of one: a KMart Special: Attention all Shoppers…
January 6th, 2008 at 12:16 pmWhen is this insane train express going to depart
January 6th, 2008 at 12:16 pmDems and Reps better pass an energy plan that gets us off foreign oil and natural gas ASAP, or whoever wins the presidency will live with a long deep recession.
January 6th, 2008 at 12:17 pmHe did follow that up with what he thought Americans were concerned about, which is whether or not American soldiers are dying.
Still, McCain’s whole argument was so full of holes and half-truths that Russert could have skewered him if he were so inclined, but of course he is not so inclined. Hopefully the Democratic nominee’s team is assembling the whole litany of McCain bullshit, since there’s no doubt at this point that he will be the Republican nominee.
McCain scares me not just because he’s the MSM’s darling and will therefore get a pass on most of his dishonesty, but because he is more hawkish than George W. Bush. A McCain presidency just about guarantees we will see more war, whether we like it or not.
January 6th, 2008 at 12:17 pmSo to McInsane the FACT that a large majority of Americans want us to get the hell out of there means we don’t care if we are there for 10,000 years?
What kind of meds do his handlers have him on?
Bush/Cheney
Hague Trials ‘09
Buck Fush
January 6th, 2008 at 12:20 pmSo Shaddam IV will still keep troops in Iraq?
Comment by RickS — January 6, 2008 @ 12:12 pm
Pretty funny… instead of Fish Speakers, they’ll have Window Peekers…
January 6th, 2008 at 12:20 pm#11, Nevar,
I am surprised their isn’t a porn series based on the Fish Speakers – they’ve shot every other angle.
January 6th, 2008 at 12:23 pmmurdering mass amounts of iraqi men, women and children = GOOD
torture = BAD
i see how the orwellian geriatric say anything mind of McCain works now.
January 6th, 2008 at 12:24 pm… As Long As Iraqis Are The Ones Dying -C&L
January 6th, 2008 at 12:26 pmI think it was pretty clear that he felt it was caualties that upset the
January 6th, 2008 at 12:28 pmAmerican people, not the prescence per se. It is a tough point to argue with. Where is the uproar and agitation for us to leave Germany, S. Korea, Okinawa, Kosovo etc. etc? I think we’d be shocked at how many Americans don’t even know we have troops in those places.
I think Hill’reh is starting to realise how Lenin felt as Stalin rose to power using Lenin’s tactics …
January 6th, 2008 at 12:29 pmIf Iraq had NO oil, then McCain would be screaming to get the troops out of that hell-hole ASAP. This proves that OIL is the sole reason the US in in Iraq and the need to stay there till every single drop is pumped out. Thus McCain thinks it OK if 10,000 years was needed to do it, but the oil could all be pumped out in way less than 100 years.
January 6th, 2008 at 12:30 pmWhich Americans he is talking about?
January 6th, 2008 at 12:30 pmMcCain will go down in ‘08 like that other old sot, Bob Dole.
∞
January 6th, 2008 at 12:38 pmAnother thing McCain forgets is that South Korea requests US troops in their country to prevent an invasion by North Korea. Germany allows some US bases because it helps their economy.
Iraq has been occupied by the US against the wishes of the people. They are getting zero benefit from it, thus no jobs.
January 6th, 2008 at 12:40 pmBut by McCain’s logic, 10,000 or even one million years is not “forever.â€
“McCain’s Logic” envisions an Iraq in some distant future, when the Sunni-Shia civil war has gone underground. In this newly-re-visioned, possible version of the future, a Musharrif-style democracy arises, that keeps a lid on car-bombings and back-alley massacres. It wields power, inside the template of America’s now-established anti-terror efforts. Suspension of habeaus corpus, torture, hostage-taking – the things we used as belated excuses for overthrowing Saddam. “McCain’s Logic” dictates that we coddle, and excuse the excesses of the new regime because it means a lessening of American battlefield casualties – regardless of the methods used. It is the most morally corrupt of intellectual rigors.
January 6th, 2008 at 12:43 pm… As Long As Iraqis Are The Ones Dying…
January 6th, 2008 at 12:44 pmThey’re not real humans you see, only Americans are real humans.
McCain’s bus has left the depot.
January 6th, 2008 at 12:47 pmwell, if the Military Industrial Complex is to survive,
January 6th, 2008 at 12:52 pmthen mcCAVE has to be the nominee… and the president…
…
The point is it’s American casualties. We’ve go to get American’s off the frontlines, have the Iraqis as part of the strategy, take over more and more of the responsibilities, and then I don’t think Americans are concerned if we’re there for one hundred years or a thousand years or ten thousand years.
Sounds like a tacit acknowledgement that American troops should redeploy, out of harm’s way. He attacked Murtha for proposing essentially the same thing.
January 6th, 2008 at 12:53 pm“…I don’t think…”
If one cares to notice, this is John McCain’s most commonly used qualifier for his opinions.
At least he’s being honest……
January 6th, 2008 at 12:53 pmThink China will be willing to finance U. S. imperialism for the next 10,000 years?
January 6th, 2008 at 12:53 pmSaid with the confidence of a man who hasn’t checked the bill.
January 6th, 2008 at 1:00 pmPersonally, I wouldn’t mind it if John McCain stayed in Iraq for the next 10,000 years. Perhaps, he could even single-handedly save the Iraqi economy by buying rugs in the Baghdad markets every day.
An earlier poster commented that McCain’s bus has left the depot. Quite true. And it was a short bus at that.
January 6th, 2008 at 1:05 pm#22 — There are two ways McCain’s comment can be interpreted to my way of thinking:
1. Does McCain think the American people don’t care; or,
2. Is McCain admitting that HE doesn’t think before he utters these non-reality based comments of his?
Either way, it indicates to me that McCain is out of touch with how the American people think about the Iraq disaster.
January 6th, 2008 at 1:11 pmI think it was pretty clear that he felt it was caualties that upset the
American people, not the prescence per se. It is a tough point to argue with. Where is the uproar and agitation for us to leave Germany, S. Korea, Okinawa, Kosovo etc. etc? I think we’d be shocked at how many Americans don’t even know we have troops in those places.
Comment by Keltoi at Night — January 6, 2008 @ 12:28 pm
The agitation to get troops out of Okinawa come from the locals, actually. Although they view the Americans as occupiers, the troops are there at the request of the Japanese government (for now) and are ultimately destined to move to Australia.
There is no parallel, however, between Iraq and any of these other installations as you well know. Other than Okinawa and some occasional problems in Korea, the locals do not view the Americans as interlopers and usually welcome their contribution to the economy and security. The Iraqis have made it very clear they don’t want US troops stationed there and any such long-term occupation will just continue to provide fodder for the fundies. It’s an effective way for the US to encourage terrorism, and to fuel (heh) the local belief that the US is only there to steal resources.
Which, ultimately, is difficult to argue with. Why else are there troops in the Middle East?
January 6th, 2008 at 1:17 pmI think what McCain is saying here, is that if American soldiers aren’t dying, Americans won’t be concerned about staying in Iraq. It’s like how we have soldiers in Korea. I don’t see many posts here lamenting that we have troops in Korea, although it has been 50+ years.
Both the American public and the Iraqi public wants us out of Iraq but yet we’re still there. McCain and others are sacrificing American men and women and Iraqi men, women and children because of their arrogance and it’s sickening.
I don’t see many posts here lamenting that we have troops in Korea, although it has been 50+ years.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — January 6, 2008 @ 1:09 pm
When we become an occupying force in Korea, call us.
January 6th, 2008 at 1:17 pmWhen is this insane train express going to depart
Comment by dbadass — January 6, 2008 @ 12:16 pm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is what America has become. You know the Republican motto, love it or leave it.
January 6th, 2008 at 1:18 pmI think what McCain is saying here, is that if American soldiers aren’t dying, Americans won’t be concerned about staying in Iraq. It’s like how we have soldiers in Korea. I don’t see many posts here lamenting that we have troops in Korea, although it has been 50+ years.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — January 6, 2008 @ 1:09 pm
Then McCain is full of shit. I never wanted us in Iraq. I want us out of Iraq because we shouldn’t be there. There is no reason for it — other than OIL, and that’s not a good enough reason for this slaughter.
I want Coalition forces to stop dying. I want Americans to stop dying. And I want the Iraqis, who have been dying at a much greater rate than ANY of us, to stop dying.
I’m an American patriot — not a flag humper.
January 6th, 2008 at 1:26 pmMcCain wants to be the next puppet President screwing Americans for petro industry profits. Clearly he means, we’ll be there until the last drop of oil is pumped out of the ground.
January 6th, 2008 at 1:30 pmBush and Hillary are copying Obama on key aspects of his foreign policy agenda. Obama has been talking about STRIKING at bin Ladin and al Qaeda WHERE THEY LIVE. It’s time. It’s time to eradicate al Qaeda already. It’s time to stop pussyfooting around in Iraq. It’s time. Now Bush is copying Obama. Hillary is also making similar noises. I say we vote for the leader on foreign policy, Obama. Obama knew Iraq was trash from the start. Obama knew we needed to finish business in the Afghanistan region.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/06/washington/06terror.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Hillary_seems_to_raise_possibility_of_0105.html
This is more proof that the self-proclaimed “experience” of the current politicians like Hillary and Bush are four steps behind Obama.
Sorry to sound like such a cheerleader, but I am calling it like I see it.
January 6th, 2008 at 1:31 pmComment by gummitch — January 6, 2008 @ 1:17 pm
Argh, just wrote a long response that didn’t make it.
The central truth of this debate and of McCains comments is that if security continues to improve and American casualties continue to decline, mainstream America will tolerate a prescence in Iraq indefinitely. Look at how the issue has receded since the surge began in June – it was white hot even 3 months ago – now, not so much.
January 6th, 2008 at 1:36 pmWhen Russett got onto the subject of staying in Iraq for 100 years my blood began to boil. St. McCain said, well we’ve been in Japan for sixty years and have bases all around the world. My question has been and still is, why are we in Japan, Germany and other countries when they don’t have bases in our country? What purpose does it serve draining our dollars from being put to better use here in America? This is exactly the point Ron Paul made yesterday while the rest of his fellow R’pubs snickered and made faces.
January 6th, 2008 at 1:38 pmWhy throw billions away if not trillions over the years into countries acting as the worlds policeman? Just doesn’t make sense, when those dollars could be put to better use here at home in areas like education and rebuiding a crumbling infrastructure.
But as usual, the MSM never really gets around to asking anything other than soft ball questions and not holding a politicians feet to the fire.
The central truth of this debate and of McCains comments is that if security continues to improve and American casualties continue to decline, mainstream America will tolerate a prescence in Iraq indefinitely. …
Comment by Keltoi at Night — January 6, 2008 @ 1:36 pm
and what of the iraqi people’s tolerance?
don’t be so selfish… dense… bigotted…
January 6th, 2008 at 1:42 pm…
mainstream America will tolerate a prescence in Iraq indefinitely. …
Comment by Keltoi at Night — January 6, 2008 @ 1:36 pm
I doubt that very much.
And the rest of the middle east will not tolerate an indefinite presence either.
January 6th, 2008 at 1:48 pmMuch like the situation in Korea today.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — January 6, 2008 @ 1:48 pm
Only if you compare oranges with coconuts.
Totally different situation in both countries then and now.
January 6th, 2008 at 1:51 pmIt was laughable this morning listening to McCain critcising Bush for big spending on NBC ‘Meet The Press’,yet he gave Bush credit for the war in Iraq.
McCain forgot that most of Bush’s spending went to war in Iraq.
If McCain wants to stay in Iraq another 100 years, did he think how is he going to do it in a cheap and unexpensive way, in addition to another war with Iran now he is promoting with his buddy Joe Lieberman (I).
McCain needs to understand that he cannot have it both ways, less spending and more wars.
I think he and Joe need to retire,and go fishing together.
January 6th, 2008 at 1:51 pmI believe that the supposition was that after there is stability (and troops and Iraqis are not dying) that Americans wouldn’t be concerned about our presence in Iraq. Much like the situation in Korea today.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — January 6, 2008 @ 1:48 pm
What about now? Both Americans and Iraqis are fed up with the current situation and want us out.
And Korea does not equal Iraq. It’s a false comparison.
January 6th, 2008 at 1:53 pmThe central truth of this debate and of McCains comments is that if security continues to improve and American casualties continue to decline, mainstream America will tolerate a prescence in Iraq indefinitely. Look at how the issue has receded since the surge began in June – it was white hot even 3 months ago – now, not so much.
Comment by Keltoi at Night — January 6, 2008 @ 1:36 pm
A couple of things: Americans will not tolerate such a presence because it would be impossible for US forces to be stationed in Iraq without casualties. The Iraqis will not tolerate them being there as an occupation force and the insurgency will continue as long as they are there. And you’ve ignored what I wrote about how the presence of US troops fuels fundamentalist terrorists throughout the region. It is, after all, one of the primary objectives of Al Qaeda.
Second, if Iraq appears to you to have fallen off American attention, I think you’re not paying much attention yourself — and the current relative calm in Iraq is largely a product of a number of very unstable alliances and agreements.
January 6th, 2008 at 1:56 pmThat’s fine, John, take it to the polls and we’ll see about it.
January 6th, 2008 at 1:56 pmHow many times were you hit in the head as a POW mc cain? Something is very wrong with this man.
January 6th, 2008 at 1:58 pmCould our presence in Iraq be the next South Korea & Japan if a Republican President is elected?
http://www.youpolls.com/details.asp?pid=1434
.
January 6th, 2008 at 2:03 pmComment by CaptainMantastic — January 6, 2008 @ 1:58 pm
I assume you are controlling for those that didn’t know there where troops in Korea and those who didn’t know there was a korea let alone two.
January 6th, 2008 at 2:04 pmand what of the iraqi people’s tolerance?
don’t be so selfish… dense… bigotted…
…
Comment by katy — January 6, 2008 @ 1:42 pm
With respect, katy, this thread is about domestic American politics and the comments of one of the Presidential candidates. The Iraqi government has not asked us to leave, but for the purposes of the thread it is off topic.
January 6th, 2008 at 2:04 pmToday, American troops are not dying in Korea. And Koreans are not dying as a result of our presence. And Americans are not, by and large, not concern about our presence there.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — January 6, 2008 @ 1:58 pm
The Korean model has no comparison to Iraq. Korea is a cease fire, based on a DMZ zone between the 2 waring factions, dividing the country into 2 separate divisions, the North Communist and the South’s semi-democracy.
Iraq is an occupation, the front is anywhere a soldier is.
Comparing the two situations is ludicrous, there is no basis to even compare.
January 6th, 2008 at 2:06 pmSo will our presence in Iraq be like what we have in S. Korea and Germany, or will it be more like the British Army’s presence in Northern Ireland during the 1970s and 80s?
January 6th, 2008 at 2:07 pmWayne. The are different. I only suggested that if Iraqis and Coalition troops were not dying, Americans would not be concerned about our presence in Iraq.
The Iraqis don’t want us there.
Today, American troops are not dying in Korea. And Koreans are not dying as a result of our presence. And Americans are not, by and large, not concern about our presence there.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — January 6, 2008 @ 1:58 pm
We’re not an occupying force in Korea and we’re not involved in anyway in their political situation. Korea is essentially a vacation spot for the military.
January 6th, 2008 at 2:09 pmI think McCain meant to say, “Only the people who reside with me in our goofy GOP bubble of unreality we ‘conservatives” have created think the US should spend 10,000 years in Iraq.”
January 6th, 2008 at 2:13 pmKeltoi @ mommy’s basement:
With respect, katy, this thread is about domestic American politics and the comments of one of the Presidential candidates. The Iraqi government has not asked us to leave, but for the purposes of the thread it is off topic.
Comment by Keltoi at Night — January 6, 2008 @ 2:04 pm
Caption of the thread:
McCain: ‘I Dont Think Americans Are Concerned’ If We Stay In Iraq For ‘10,000 Years’
So the illegal invasion and occupation of another country is “domestic American politics”, not an international politics one?
Your reading comprehension really sucks.
January 6th, 2008 at 2:15 pmCan you say “Out of touch?!?!?!”
January 6th, 2008 at 2:17 pm.
.
.
*sigh*
.
.
.
.
With respect, katy, this thread is about domestic American politics and the comments of one of the Presidential candidates. The Iraqi government has not asked us to leave, but for the purposes of the thread it is off topic.
Comment by Keltoi at Night — January 6, 2008 @ 2:04 pm
A majority of the Iraqi government has signed a document requesting that we leave and Maliki had requested the same until Rice put him in his place. He actually thought (for a second) that he had real power. Silly him.
January 6th, 2008 at 2:18 pmWith respect, katy, this thread is about domestic American politics and the comments of one of the Presidential candidates. The Iraqi government has not asked us to leave, but for the purposes of the thread it is off topic.
Comment by Keltoi at Night — January 6, 2008 @ 2:04 pm
A majority of the Iraqi government has signed a document requesting that we leave and Maliki had requested the same until Rice put him in his place. He actually thought (for a second) that he had real power. Silly him.
Comment by Nat — January 6, 2008 @ 2:18 pm
Oh, but when these news where in the first page of the papers, Keltoi was searching for the section “Schools painted” and “Sports” at the last pages.
January 6th, 2008 at 2:20 pmEvil Span: Keltoi @ mommy’s basement
Evil Spaniard @ The Government’s Basement
HA HA HA HA – And I’m sure it’s true.
Comment by The Clear Conservative — January 6, 2008 @ 2:22 pm
At what Government exactly? And where you say?
That explains you believe the void and generalistic slogans of McCoin.
A hint: the three first points of your wishlist can be attained by stopping the war, bozo.
And, you want personal responsability? Don’t tell me, you voted for Bush in the 2000 and 2004. Illuse.
January 6th, 2008 at 2:26 pmAnd you’ve ignored what I wrote about how the presence of US troops fuels fundamentalist terrorists throughout the region. It is, after all, one of the primary objectives of Al Qaeda.
Second, if Iraq appears to you to have fallen off American attention, I think you’re not paying much attention yourself — and the current relative calm in Iraq is largely a product of a number of very unstable alliances and agreements.
Comment by gummitch — January 6, 2008 @ 1:56 pm
As I said, I wrote you a longer response but the ether swallowed it. I am short on time and I will have to make this it for now.
AQ has said the war in Iraq is the major struggle in the GWOT. I take them at their word. They are suffering big time in Iraq right now. This is good. If they are seen to have been defeated, it will damage their street cred. Ditto with us if we are seen to be driven out.
There is no denying Iraq as a story and an issue has receded with the drop off in US casualties. Everyone here still pays attention, but we are abnormal news junkies. Even the Center for American Progress acknowledged the “drift” of our focus.
>>McCain: ‘I Dont Think Americans Are Concerned’ If We Stay In Iraq For ‘10,000 Years’
Comment by Evil Spaniard — January 6, 2008 @ 2:15 pm
Spaniard, glass houses on the reading comprehension thing, baby. When Iraqis get to vote in US Presidential elections, the topic of this thread will be germane to public in opinion in Iraq. I am not saying such opinion is irrelevant in general, only as applies to this thread.
Have a nice day, all.
January 6th, 2008 at 2:31 pmThe Republican Welfare Program, know as the Iraq occupation, will come to an end when the rest of the world stops buying our debt to finance this travesty. They are waiting for the results of the 2008 election. If 10,000 year McCain is selected, the spigot gets shut-off.
What would a trillion or two dollars have done for our energy independence and our domestic economy these past 7 years? It’s obvious that this Big Oil/Big MIC administration is looking after their narrow financial interests, but McCain is hallucinating if he thinks we can sustain the financial drain for another 20 years, let alone 10,000. But keep making these stupid comments, John….it’s almost like you want the Republicans to lose in 2008.
January 6th, 2008 at 2:32 pmMC CAIN:
In an interview with Chris Matthews, John McCain was pressed to explain just where another 100,000 troops are supposed to come from for Iraq:
“I don’t think we need to think of the draft again because I don’t think it makes sense in a whole variety of ways. But I guarantee you, if these young people felt that this nation was in a crisis and we asked them to serve, virtually every one of them would stand up because I have the greatest confidence in the young people of America.”
(Transcript at: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15330717/)
CRISIS?
WHAT CRISES?
ARE WE IN A CRISIS, OR ARE YOU FORETELLING ONE?
See the connection? Both of these men are tipping their hand to a pending “CRISIS†that will solve both the recruitment problem and win (OR CANCEL) the elections.
JOHN MC CAIN – YOU’VE GOT FOREKNOWLEDGE OF A PENDING ATTACK. EXPOSE IT TO PREVENT IT – OR SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES.
Is THIS the pending CRISIS?
http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/104451
Here is the DRESS REHEARSAL for the sinking of the USS Enterprise:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-05-17-ship-reef_x.htm
McCain’s Dad covered up Israel’s attack on the USS Liberty – is history repeating?
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/margolis12.html
The stranglehold of AIPAC
THE ARCHITECTS OF TERROR ARE IN THE WHITE HOUSE.
WITHOUT TERROR – THEY HAVE NO POWER.
IT IS THEY WHO ARE ATTACKING US.
January 6th, 2008 at 2:38 pmMcCain Says Major Financiers Will Back His 2008 Bid
December 15, 2006
One of the most prominent on the list of finance committee co-chairmen is the head of the New York Stock Exchange, John Thain. Mr. Thain, whose title is CEO of NYSE Group, Inc., previously served as president and CEO of Goldman Sachs Group, Inc.
A New Jersey-based investment banker deeply involved in fund-raising efforts for the 2004 Republican convention, Lewis Eisenberg, is signing on with Mr. McCain. Mr. Eisenberg is a former Goldman Sachs partner who served as chairman of the Port Authority board at the time of the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.
WHAT A FU#KING COINCIDENCE!
It was Eisenberg who passed the $15 billion Asbestos Liability represented by the Twin Towers onto Larry Silverstein, the man who confessed publicly to having Building 7 “PULLED” by explosives – despite the fact that no plane struck it:
Rescuer 2: “Keep your eye on that building, it will be coming down soon.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr5TxKTMRx0
LISTEN to the firefighters and police:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnbpz9udYus
Listen to the owner:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYaUeGvYYxc
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0823-03.htm
COLLEGE STUDENTS DYING FROM INHALED ASBESTOS:
http://www.bupipedream.com/pipeline_web/display_article.php?id=3259
ALL SO HALLIBURTON COULD REMOVE THE WTC ASBESTOS LIABILITY FROM ITS BOOKS – HALLIBURTON HAD ACQUIRED DRESSER TO SAVE THE BUSH FAMILY FROM THE LOSING POSITION IT WAS STUCK IN…all because of the pending Asbestos law suits
Planning days in advance to bring down WTC7 by planting explosives inside it implies only ONE THING…FOREKNOWLEDGE OF THE ATTACK ON 9/11.
Google: “Dancing Israelis”
The Zionists did it. McCain is in their employ. Lieberman is absolutely his running mate. Apparently McCain doesn’t realize that once they are “installed†in the White House, his own days on planet earth are numbered by dark forces who will not rest until Israel has installed a Zionist as President in YOUR White House.
Follow the money.
Google: Greenquest
January 6th, 2008 at 2:39 pmSpaniard, glass houses on the reading comprehension thing, baby. When Iraqis get to vote in US Presidential elections, the topic of this thread will be germane to public in opinion in Iraq. I am not saying such opinion is irrelevant in general, only as applies to this thread.
Have a nice day, all.
Comment by Keltoi at Night — January 6, 2008 @ 2:31 pm
No, you simply said that the decission on an international war is a “domestic issue” of the USA. Keltoi, you can’t separate so neatly the decission of the USA voters of the international consequences. Attitudes like yours are and have been the root of all the sh!t that flew off the fan with the Iraq invasion, and others before.
You can parse words all that you want (by the way, you said before that iraqis never said that they wanted the USA out of Iraq, until corrected, who has the worst reading comprehension?), but the fact that the candidate elected by the USA electorate will influence in the international politics is a fact, are these voters aware or not.
Not a “domestic issue”, as you would wish.
January 6th, 2008 at 2:40 pmJohnny the Shitheel is losing voters to Obama.
McCain and Romney will limp out of NH battered and broken.
-GSD
January 6th, 2008 at 2:43 pmHow much spam do you have for us today?
Comment by The Clear Conservative — January 6, 2008 @ 2:40 pm
How much rightwing crap do you have for us today? Personal responsibility? Please. Never has been a Republican with any at all.
January 6th, 2008 at 2:44 pmYeah. That’s why I’m endorsing McCain, who could round up solid majorities back to the House and Senate by returning to the conservative acumen. That’s what the people want.
And McCain, the military vet, can make the military decisions for our nation, not a code pink representative.
And bad enough for you, I didn’t vote for Bush in 2000/2004. Seemed like a democrat to me, that’s why our country is in bad shape.
Comment by The Clear Conservative — January 6, 2008 @ 2:32 pm
So you want a McCain/Mussolini ticket? It explains all.
January 6th, 2008 at 2:45 pmIran: The Next War:
http://www.warwithoutend.co.uk/zone0/viewtopic.php?t=56761
AIPAC and the Neocon WAR agenda:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Rf16XjbOUs
ISRAELI SPY RING PROBE WIDENS :
http://la.indymedia.org/news/2006/11/187362.php
How Neoconservatives Conquered Washington – and Launched a War
by Michael Lind
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/lind1.html
January 6th, 2008 at 2:46 pmIs MacCain in contact with the American people?????? Since when???!
January 6th, 2008 at 2:46 pmEven if there were zero American deaths in Iraq I still think a majority of the people in this country will want us out for two reasons. The first is that it morally wrong to occupy a foreign country against the wishes of the people who live there. Second, occupying Iraq is bankrupting this country. This is not a fact that has escaped the attention of the people in this country. I’m sure they would rather see our tax dollars going to improving this country than going to occupy a country who wants us gone.
McCain is certifiable.
January 6th, 2008 at 2:49 pmComment by plunger — January 6, 2008 @ 2:38 pm
How much spam do you have for us today?
Comment by The Clear Conservative — January 6, 2008 @ 2:40 pm
Do you have any thoughts as to the CONTENT that I’ve posted?
Any inaccuracies?
Shooting the messenger doesn’t really advance the cause of the truth.
January 6th, 2008 at 2:50 pmComment by plunger — January 6, 2008 @ 2:50 pm
TCC doens’t consider spam cutting and pasting the McCain political program (who is yet another Republican program with the talking points rehashed).
January 6th, 2008 at 2:53 pmI guess the Iraqis don’t have any say in the matter. We are the New Romans. They are part of our empire.
Majority of Iraqis agree with attacks on our troops. In recent survey, 2% in Basra said the occupation was a positive. In February 2006, 70% of our troops said they should come home by February 2007.
Hint: The Iraqis are still mad as hell at the British because they occupied Iraq for a short time 88 years ago.
January 6th, 2008 at 2:55 pmThat’s why they’re called democrats.
Comment by The Clear Conservative — January 6, 2008 @ 2:51 pm
Hey, the rubber/glue defense. That’s new!
January 6th, 2008 at 2:55 pmIt is a tough point to argue with. Where is the uproar and agitation for us to leave Germany, S. Korea, Okinawa, Kosovo etc. etc? I think we’d be shocked at how many Americans don’t even know we have troops in those places.
Comment by Keltoi at Night
The difference is, loon Keltoi, that we are not occupying those countries and our presence is there with the full permission of the governments.
The Iraqi people want us out of their country. They couldn’t make that more clear. They are killing our soldiers because they want us out. They answer polling questions saying they want us out.
And, finally, it is morally reprehensible for us to occupy a country against their will.
January 6th, 2008 at 2:56 pmNot to my surprise, there’s a misunderstanding. The clear conservative ticket for 2008 would be McCain/Thompson.
If that comes to be, good luck being a democrat.
Comment by The Clear Conservative — January 6, 2008 @ 2:55 pm
Be prepared for a great deception, maybe greater than the one you suffered with that dirty lefty hippy of Bush.
Oh, and BTW, I’m not Dem either.
January 6th, 2008 at 2:57 pmWe have about 750 bases in 130 countries. Sure beats the Romans.
All things considered, we spend about $1 Trillion every year on our military.
The Iraq war will cost at least $2 Trillion. According to the sixteen intelligence agencies of the USA, it has made us LESS secure.
January 6th, 2008 at 3:00 pmComment by The Clear Conservative — January 6, 2008 @ 2:58 pm
Curious posturing of the USA ultra conservatives, they hate the government for the sake of it, yet they spout word by word what they are feed by the candidates to the Presidency of that same government.
Wear your blinders proudly con-bot.
January 6th, 2008 at 3:02 pmLook at how the issue has receded since the surge began in June – it was white hot even 3 months ago – now, not so much.
Comment by Keltoi at Night
The only reason why the issue has “receded” is because the MSM has stopped reporting on Iraq. But, it is still a central issue with most of the sane people in this country and will stay that way until we are out.
Loon Keltoi – don’t you have a problem with bankrupting this country to occupy another country against their will?
January 6th, 2008 at 3:04 pmRemember old Piss and Vinegar Zell Miller at the GO0Per convention?
“Them Dimmy-crats are sayin’ we wanna OCC-You-Pie Eye-Rack!”
-GSD
January 6th, 2008 at 3:05 pmBeing a clear conservative makes me a responsible and true American. Sorry you haven’t tried that. You can always conspire to steal my earnings and push crazy lies like only big government can do.
Comment by The Clear Conservative — January 6, 2008 @ 2:58 pm
You remind me of a guy named Schicklgruber.
January 6th, 2008 at 3:06 pmBut by McCain’s logic, 10,000 or even one million years is not “forever.â€
Well, in the overall scheme of things, it isn’t. The Earth, after all, is over four Billion years old; the universe is reckoned to be in the neighborhood of 10-15 Billion years old. So what’s 10,000 or 1,000,000 compared to that?
January 6th, 2008 at 3:07 pmEven in the scheme of humanity, the 10,000 isn’t. As a species, homo sapiens has existed for less than half a million years. Our specific subspecies, homo sapiens sapiens, has only been around for about half that time. (History has only been “recorded” for about 6000 years, but we do have some knowledge of things that weren’t recorded at the time but were passed down through oral tradition.)
Of course, since humans tend to live a span of only decades, the tendency is to think of a mere 10,000 years as “forever”.
If the conservatives were true to their word, after toppling the government in Iraq, they would have NEVER helped rebuild the government, because “the government is the problem”.
-GSD
January 6th, 2008 at 3:07 pmI believe that the supposition was that after there is stability (and troops and Iraqis are not dying) that Americans wouldn’t be concerned about our presence in Iraq. Much like the situation in Korea today.
Comment by CaptainMantastic
Over and over and over again, the RNC talking point – Iraq is like Korea. Iraq IS NOT like Korea. The Koreans want us there, the people in Iraq DO NOT! That is the difference asshat.
Also, the supposition was that after there is “stability” the Iraqi government would get it’s act together. That has not happened. I don’t want to see one more human being (and the Iraqi’s are human beings contrary to the Republiscum beliefs) to die because we illegally invaded a foreign country.
I often imagine how loudly the Republiscums in this country would be screaming if we were being occupied by another country. They would be in the streets with their guns shooting at the occupying force. Wait… isn’t that what the people in Iraq are doing?
January 6th, 2008 at 3:10 pmComment by GSD — January 6, 2008 @ 3:07 pm
Yes, but if they hadn’t created the Iraqi government, guess what other unique government would be the one left to blame? That would have been too pristine even for conservative voters. They had to create a puppet government to pin the blame in case of need.
January 6th, 2008 at 3:11 pmComment by The Clear Conservative
You spelled alert incorrectly, row 23, column 7.
January 6th, 2008 at 3:12 pmIf big government doesn’t “steal earnings”, then how does it pay for:
- A strong defense with our military resources well maintained;
January 6th, 2008 at 3:12 pm- Secure borders with employer sanctions;
and
- Deportation of criminal aliens?
Comment by bilbobaggins — January 6, 2008 @ 3:10 pm
Did you see “RED DAWN”?
January 6th, 2008 at 3:13 pmComment by RickS — January 6, 2008 @ 3:12 pm
The strong personnality of a strong Republican ticket will drive out the illegals running, who will build a wall (free for the USA) to protect themselves of the irate gaze of these demigods of justice and law. They will send back gifts to mitigate their just fury, gifts that can be used to fund a stronger military, again for free for the USA citizen.
January 6th, 2008 at 3:18 pmThe Iraqi government has not asked us to leave, but for the purposes of the thread it is off topic.
Comment by Keltoi at Night
Your post about our troops in Korea was also off topic asshat.
And the “Iraqi Government” has not asked us to leave because they are nothing more than Bush puppets. The only “government” that has been elected in Iraq is the Parliament, and they have expressed an opinion that they want us to leave Iraq. They issued a declaration to that affect last April and have not changed their mind. So, as far as I am concerned, what the people of Iraq and the duly elected representatives want trumps what Bush’s puppets want.
WASHINGTON – The end of 2007 produced a telltale indication of what the New Year seems likely to bring to Iraq. “We the Iraqi members of Parliament signing below demand a timetable for withdrawal of the occupation forces [MNF] from our beloved Iraq,” 144 members of the 275-member Parliament, a clear majority, wrote in a declaration April 2007.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JA04Ak03.html
January 6th, 2008 at 3:20 pmIt pays for it with what I want to pay. What I want to donate to government.
It pays for it with CHOICE OF THE INDIVIDUAL CITIZEN!
Comment by The Clear Conservative — January 6, 2008 @ 3:17 pm
But, if conservative people don’t want to give their money in taxes, what makes you think that they would be willing to give it in donations? Because the name of the money transaction is changed?
January 6th, 2008 at 3:23 pmLOOoooOOOOOooON
Scurry.
Comment by The Clear Conservative — January 6, 2008 @ 3:13 pm
P-brain is on a meth rant again…..
January 6th, 2008 at 3:23 pm#72 – Comment by plunger — January 6, 2008 @ 2:46 pm
Thank you plunger for learning to link rather than cut-and-paste spams. You do have important things to say. You just have not been saying it in the proper way.
January 6th, 2008 at 3:27 pmI am a compassionate conservative.
Comment by The Clear Conservative
Now where have we heard that before? There is nothing compassionate about invading a country and occupying it against it’s will.
January 6th, 2008 at 3:28 pmBecause conservatives tend to donate a lot more to charity than liberals anyway. SO WHY NOT GO THE WHOLE WAY!?!?!?!?
Comment by The Clear Conservative — January 6, 2008 @ 3:25 pm
Link, please.
January 6th, 2008 at 3:28 pmStories like this give McCain and his handlers a raging woody:
January 6, 2008
Israel to brief George Bush on options for Iran strike
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3137521.ece
Why is Israel even Talking about striking Iran in light of the recent NIE?
Why is the Bush Administration listening?
Ask McCain – he knows why.
B L A C K M A I L
January 6th, 2008 at 3:30 pmBecause conservatives tend to donate a lot more to charity than liberals anyway. SO WHY NOT GO THE WHOLE WAY!?!?!?!?
Comment by The Clear Conservative — January 6, 2008 @ 3:25 pm
I don’t suppose you have any proof for that assertion?
Of course not…….
January 6th, 2008 at 3:30 pmYou never do.
Because conservatives tend to donate a lot more to charity than liberals anyway. SO WHY NOT GO THE WHOLE WAY!?!?!?!?
Comment by The Clear Conservative
Oh really. Do you care to back up that assertion with proof? NO? Not surprised. Right wing trolls never back up their inane statements with proof, or they back it up with proof from right-wing websites.
Wouldn’t it be refreshing to have a true conservative who can debate us with facts rather than these RNC droids?
January 6th, 2008 at 3:30 pmplease FLAG it! … it’s the only proper thing to do…
there’s just too much stoopid… FLAG IT!
January 6th, 2008 at 3:32 pmComment by bilbobaggins — January 6, 2008 @ 3:20 pm
bimbobigass?
Comment by The Clear Conservative
Wow, we have a new rightard troll who thinks he is funny. He’s about as funny as Faux Noise’s comedy show was that lasted, what, a week?
Stick to your lies and obfuscations rightard, you are way better at it than you are at comedy.
January 6th, 2008 at 3:33 pmAnd, what I think is that most conservatives justify themselves not wanting to pay taxes because they already make donations. What makes you think, TCC, that they want to INCREASE the value of their donations if taxes are elliminated? Or increase the value of their donations ENOUGH to pay for the things that are payed actually with the taxes?
January 6th, 2008 at 3:33 pmplease FLAG it! … it’s the only proper thing to do…
there’s just too much stoopid… FLAG IT!
Comment by katy
I’m flagging Katy, have been for days. Doesn’t seem like TP is paying attention any longer, though.
January 6th, 2008 at 3:33 pmhttp://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2682730
Comment by The Clear Conservative
Give me a break. They make this assertion based on people putting money in Salvation Army buckets. And they also base it on a book written by a right winger. Real objective data there! The fact of the matter is that most Salvation Army buckets are in front of Wal Mart and no self-respecting Liberal would be caught dead shopping at Wal Mart. And finally, ABC has become Faux light in recent years. Pretty much everything they do has a right wing slant.
If you can come up with a objective research that proves your point, fine. Otherwise STFU.
January 6th, 2008 at 3:40 pmI believe that the supposition was that after there is stability (and troops and Iraqis are not dying) that Americans wouldn’t be concerned about our presence in Iraq. Much like the situation in Korea today.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — January 6, 2008 @ 1:48 pm
There will never be stability in Iraq. You live in a dream world.
There is no comparison between Iraq and Korea, so you can drop that one.
January 6th, 2008 at 3:40 pmOnce again, I bring up the fact WE really do NOT know how many have died in Iraq. Some, ex: the Harring Report, claim this number could be 8 times as many reported. When you watch the number on the DOD site. DOD’s number only goes up when a death is reported that day, that died on Iraqi soil. During the Vietnam war, the death rate was around 58,000… and when you check out the Vietnam Wall Memorial site, you will see they were STILL adding names of those that died in 1980 – years after that so called war was over.
January 6th, 2008 at 3:41 pmbilbo, prostituting yourself on TP still doesn’t pay, no matter when you believe that payday will come.
Now, hurry up and give to TP (â€ThinksGivingâ€), because that’s the only reason you’re still able to post here.
Comment by The Clear Conservative
Actually what I won’t do is prostitute myself any longer by responding to your inane and baseless posts. Flag yes, respond no. I don’t hit my head on a brick wall more than a couple of times. After that, I stop.
January 6th, 2008 at 3:41 pmYou can always conspire to steal my earnings and push crazy lies like only big government can do.
Comment by The Clear Conservative — January 6, 2008 @ 2:58 pm
That’s the Bush plan, all the way.
January 6th, 2008 at 3:43 pmOtherwise, do the STFU-ing and don’t pretend to have a chance against ABC, left-wing vermin scum.
Comment by The Clear Conservative — January 6, 2008 @ 3:42 pm
Oooh, the not-in-Iraq coward calls up Hitler’s ghost!
January 6th, 2008 at 3:44 pmIf we’re going to be there that long, shouldn’t we make Iraq the 51st state?
McCain could run for governor — show us how it’s done!
January 6th, 2008 at 3:45 pmActually, the red states giving more to charity speaks volumes about the study, while ‘crats just want to stockpiles people’s money to cover their fat pensions.
Comment by The Clear Conservative — January 6, 2008 @ 3:43 pm
Actually, you are very good at putting two lies in one absurd statement, but that’s no surprise. Go change the air in your head.
January 6th, 2008 at 3:45 pmTime for your melt-down, P, you haven’t made a lick of sense or told the truth once since you came here to puke what’s left of your diseased brain out.
January 6th, 2008 at 3:46 pmMr. Brooks is Roman Catholic and politically independent, and has registered as both a Democrat and a Republican in the past decade. In an interview, he says he set out to write a book about values and philanthropy, with no hidden agenda.
Comment by The Clear Conservative — January 6, 2008 @ 3:46 pm
Mr. Brooks makes his living by lying to wingnut fools like CC. He sees them coming from a long way off. They telegraph their stupidity.
January 6th, 2008 at 3:47 pmComment by The Clear Conservative — January 6, 2008 @ 3:33 pm
John Stossel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stossel
Stossel practices advocacy journalism where he often challenges “conventional wisdom”.[2] His reports, a blend of commentary and reporting, reflect a roughly libertarian political philosophy and his views on economics are largely supportive of the free market. This makes him a “contrarian” in American media and he has been targeted by left-wing organizations that disagree with him.[3]
So an op-ed piece from a libertarian. I see. Objectivity over all.
January 6th, 2008 at 3:48 pmActually, the red states giving more to charity speaks volumes about the study, while ‘crats just want to stockpiles people’s money to cover their fat pensions.
Comment by The Clear Conservative — January 6, 2008 @ 3:43 pm
And blue states pay more in taxes to carry along your free-loader ass.
January 6th, 2008 at 3:49 pmDr. SAVAGE HOLDS TWO MASTERS AND A PhD AND YOU LIVE IN THE GOVERNMENT’S BASEMENT YOU LEFTIST TROLL HALF-WIT
“ROTFL!!†“-’tard†– As I can tell, you didn’t get very far in life.
Comment by The Clear Conservative — January 6, 2008 @ 3:49 pm
and you buy his claims and his lies? Wow, P, you’re beyond any hope. that’s why you’re an antiAmerican scumsucker, as rightards all are.
January 6th, 2008 at 3:50 pmSorry, Spanny, you’ve been thoroughly debunked. Besides, leftists hate charties, since they’re private, so what’s the fuss about?
Comment by The Clear Conservative — January 6, 2008 @ 3:50 pm
righties take pride in starving their children and grandparents to death. Their “charitable” giving is non-existent. P’s got all of his lies in the air today, to be shot down by those of us who know how to read. Bye, P, you’re melting!
January 6th, 2008 at 3:52 pm“free-loader†and “conservative†doesn’t link, dim-bulb.
Comment by The Clear Conservative — January 6, 2008 @ 3:51 pm
actually, they mean exactly the same thing.
January 6th, 2008 at 3:53 pmMichael Savage is OBSESSED with gay sex. OBSESSED I say.
I guess if I looked like a foppish version of Leon Trotsky I’d wanna bolster my manly credentials too.
-GSD
January 6th, 2008 at 3:53 pmIsn’t my argument against an overtaxing, intrusive government?
Thanks for the complement.
Comment by The Clear Conservative — January 6, 2008 @ 3:52 pm
Thanks for arguing against Republicans, then. Every time you morons steal an election, government gets bigger and taxes go up. You should get off mommy’s tit once in a while, P.
January 6th, 2008 at 3:54 pm… As Long As Iraqis Are The Ones Dying -C&L
Comment by katy — January 6, 2008 @
January 6th, 2008 at 3:54 pm3904!!!! of your soldiers are dead. Your Constitution is also agonizing, not to mention your freedom! The US dollar… US$1 = RS$1.50!!!!! Yeah! Your are doing really good!
Comment by The Clear Conservative — January 6, 2008 @ 3:55 pm
You’ve only succeeded in debunking yourself and your unAmerican rightard pervert friends. what a loser!
January 6th, 2008 at 3:56 pm“free-loader†and “conservative†doesn’t link, dim-bulb.
Comment by The Clear Conservative — January 6, 2008 @ 3:51 pm
Maybe in your piss-soaked brain, but it’s pretty clear to me.
January 6th, 2008 at 3:58 pm… As Long As Iraqis Are The Ones Dying -C&L
Comment by katy — January 6, 2008 @
3904!!!! of your soldiers are dead. Your Constitution is also agonizing, not to mention your freedom! The US dollar… US$1 = RS$1.50!!!!! Yeah! Your are doing really good!
Comment by sacopenapa — January 6, 2008 @ 3:54 pm
Katy was being ironic.
January 6th, 2008 at 4:00 pm$250 Billion x 10,000 years = 2.5 QUADRILLION (plus inflation, plus interest)
It does not matter whether the war is actually happening, and, since no decisive victory is possible, it does not matter whether the war is going well or badly. All that is needed is that a state of war should exist.”
-1984, Orwell
January 6th, 2008 at 4:02 pmSorry, Spanny, you’ve been thoroughly debunked. Besides, leftists hate charties, since they’re private, so what’s the fuss about?
Comment by The Clear Conservative — January 6, 2008 @ 3:50 pm
In your dreams, Clearly Confused Conservative. The article says that people in conservative states give a greater percentage of their money to charities. First, I don’t see official data to demonstrate it. Only the comparative of buckets on two states (was every money bill marked with the affiliation of the donator?). Or the opinion of a couple people in favor of private charities, and the scarce data offerred by two private charities. I don’t see a total number anywhere.
I don’t see either total numbers in any place. Who are more willing to pay taxes, and in fact pay them? What helps more the country, the 300 milions of dolars payed in taxes by a mainly Democratic state or the 3 millions of dolars payed in charities plus taxes by a mainly Republican State. Where are directed the taxes of the Democratic states. To the poor Republican states perhaps?
January 6th, 2008 at 4:03 pmClear Conservative
Definition:
-Transparent, as in lacking in color or tone.
-No value, ingredients or substance.
-Inert
-Also, a rube who hoards moonshine.
January 6th, 2008 at 4:06 pmThis is very off topic, but Savage (real name Weiner, ha ha) used to be pretty far to the left in the North Beach area of San Francisco. A friend of Tomothy Leary and allegedly in love with Allen Ginberg. His education is in botany and nutrional ethnomedicine. Not political science or history. He thinks it funny to call a foreigner with brown skin “Turd World”.
The topic of this thread is how long we are occupying Iraq.
January 6th, 2008 at 4:07 pmOkay, If the Iraq/Korea comparasion doesn’t work, I’m curious; what comparasion would you make?
Comment by CaptainMantastic — January 6, 2008 @ 4:02 pm
Poland/Germany is a better comparison in terms of American imperial power being illegally used to invade a sovereign nation that was no threat whatsoever. iraq will stabilize once we withdraw. We have lost, get over it. We deserved to lose. We lost in the first seconds of Shock & Awe, an extraordinarily cowardly way to “free” Iraqis.
January 6th, 2008 at 4:08 pmthere will never be stability in Iraq? That’s pessimistically unrealistic.
Okay, If the Iraq/Korea comparasion doesn’t work, I’m curious; what comparasion would you make?
Comment by CaptainMantastic — January 6, 2008 @ 4:02 pm
You have a pattern of being optimistically unrealistic, and there’s really no counter to your rainbows and unicorns vision of Iraq, so I won’t continue trying.
I wouldn’t make any comparison.
January 6th, 2008 at 4:08 pmKaty was being ironic.
Sorry Katy!!! I missunderstood you. Just got shocked by the idiot conservative, when I read the your comment about iraquis I got confused. Two milliow Iraqui civilians dead is not something that a normal human being can take lightly.
January 6th, 2008 at 4:10 pmI see our favorite troll’s mommy left her computer unattended again. Will she never learn?
January 6th, 2008 at 4:12 pmKaty was being ironic.
Comment by Zooey — January 6, 2008
January 6th, 2008 at 4:13 pmSorry! I missunderstood you!
Don’t worry, everybody; Mr. Pee will soon run out of poo to fling at the walls. Unless his mom fixes him a bowl of raisin bran for lunch…
January 6th, 2008 at 4:15 pmthere will never be stability in Iraq? That’s pessimistically unrealistic.
Okay, If the Iraq/Korea comparasion doesn’t work, I’m curious; what comparasion would you make?
Comment by CaptainMantastic — January 6, 2008 @ 4:02 pm
I think they’ll be relative stability when we leave. Look at Anbar and Basra. When authority was being handed to local control, the violence subsided in those places. Anyway, none of this matters. Bush should have never invaded and we sure as hell shouldn’t be there now.
January 6th, 2008 at 4:19 pmI see our favorite troll’s mommy left her computer unattended again. Will she never learn?
Comment by Impolitics — January 6, 2008 @ 4:12 pm
Of course, getting shown up (2-1 margin) in Iowa will only serve to unbalance the trolls even farther. It must suck to realize your heroes have become irrelevant. Can you say Democratic Super-majority?
As for McCain? He’s sold out every value he once stood for due to his lust for the Presidency. It’s sad. He used to do a lot of good for this country. Now? The best he can hope for is to live out his life outside of institutions. I think he’ll announce his retirement shortly after he’s eliminated, followed by a disclosure of Alzheimer’s.
January 6th, 2008 at 4:19 pmWhat career was claiming Mr. P that was studying? Oh, yes, ancient greek and latin languages.
Great domain of the discoursive and oratorical techniques. Demosthenes is spinning at his grave. Their neigbours call him “The Turbine”.
January 6th, 2008 at 4:21 pmIn your dreams, Clearly Confused Conservative. The article says that people in conservative states give a greater percentage of their money to charities. First, I don’t see official data to demonstrate it. Only the comparative of buckets on two states (was every money bill marked with the affiliation of the donator?).
Comment by Evil Spaniard — January 6, 2008 @ 4:03 pm
If you take out donations to religious organizations, Liberals have a clear advantage over conservatives.
January 6th, 2008 at 4:22 pmAnd, returning finally to the thread, dividing Iraq may have the same problems the old parts of Yugoslavia are having today: there exists parts of the country in dispute. Think also in Israel and Palestine. Think also in Turkey, looming over the Kurdish part of Iraq, to fall over it the day it is an independent country. I don’t see the partition as a clear or easy solution.
January 6th, 2008 at 4:24 pmOkay, If the Iraq/Korea comparasion doesn’t work, I’m curious; what comparasion would you make?
Comment by CaptainMantastic — January 6, 2008 @ 4:02 pm
There is no comparison, or precedent, for our occupation of Iraq. Bushco invaded a sovereign nation which HAD NOT ATTACKED US! (Two if one gets picky.) Why can’t rightwingers comprehend that simple fact? Are they just unwilling/unable to accept the fact Bushco effed up?
In the eyes of the world Bushco has lowered us to “criminal nation” status. We may never regain our respected position in the community of nations; certainly not in our lifetimes.
January 6th, 2008 at 4:26 pmI think it is safe to say that most Americans don’t even know what countries have American bases. Most of us don’t pay attention. That is how George Bush was allowed to increase executive power. We weren’t paying attention. I guess McCain is correct. [Sigh]…It’s good to be sheep.
January 6th, 2008 at 4:28 pmRight wing, left wing WTF! Do what is right for your country not your party. Being a patriot doesn’t mean blindly following your political party. Grow a pair and stand up for your country!
January 6th, 2008 at 4:32 pmComment by CaptainMantastic — January 6, 2008 @ 4:27 pm
What was the sense in posting that? None of that will change the fact that Bush illegally invaded Iraq and that we have no business being there now.
January 6th, 2008 at 4:33 pm“Everybody agrees that things are much better.â€
Comment by CaptainMantastic — January 6, 2008 @ 4:29 pm
Irrelevant. We are just as guilty as Germany, for invading Europe, and Japan, for invading China and the South Pacific, in WW2.
Aggressors, in war, don’t have the luxury of deciding whether their aggression was justified.
January 6th, 2008 at 4:35 pm“Everybody agrees that things are much better.â€
That’s not me; it’s the BBC.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — January 6, 2008 @ 4:29 pm
Well, here’s another cherry-picked quote from the same article:
January 6th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
btruthful. If republicans hate facts, the presumption is that you love them. Read my link again. Then comment on how a secure Iraq is not possible.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7089168.stm
Comment by CaptainMantastic — January 6, 2008 @ 4:32 pm
The Iraqis should be the ones deciding the future of their country; we have no business there.
January 6th, 2008 at 4:35 pmThere is no comparison, or precedent, for our occupation of Iraq.
5,000 years of recorded history and there is no precedent?
Comment by CaptainMantastic — January 6, 2008 @ 4:35 pm
Sorry, I didn’t think I needed to add. There is no comparison or precedent, in U.S. history, for our occupation of Iraq.
January 6th, 2008 at 4:38 pmAggressors, in war, don’t have the luxury of deciding whether their aggression was justified.
Comment by Impolitics — January 6, 2008 @ 4:35 pm
It’s kind of like posting the benefits of what Hitler did.
January 6th, 2008 at 4:39 pm…you stupid moronic little girl!
Comment by republicans hate facts — January 6, 2008 @ 4:36 pm
Hey, quit calling him a girl. That’s really sexist.
We don’t want him included in our ranks.
January 6th, 2008 at 4:40 pmComment by CaptainMantastic — January 6, 2008 @ 4:32 pm
I’ve posted this link several times, but none of the “conservatives” have ever responded and probably none of them ever read it.
Will Mantastic be the first? Don’t hold your breath.
January 6th, 2008 at 4:43 pmFair enough. But, just because you disagree with the reasons for invading Iraq, doesn’t mean the withdrawl shouldn’t be based on reason.
Can’t you get it through your head. We have no business being there.
Does the democratically elected leadership in Iraq want us to withdrawl immediately?
Yes.
Should we consider the possible destabiliation of withdrawing too soon?
No. It’s up to the Iraqis to decide that.
Is it possible that a hasty withdrawl could cost more Iraqi lives than a more thoughtful one?
Comment by CaptainMantastic — January 6, 2008 @ 4:39 pm
Who knows? But again, that’s up to the Iraqis to decide.
January 6th, 2008 at 4:45 pmThere is progress, and with enough progress, there can be security. I suggest we let it play out.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — January 6, 2008 @ 4:42 pm
Well, the American Public and the Iraqi public disagree.
January 6th, 2008 at 4:46 pmFair enough. But, just because you disagree with the reasons for invading Iraq, doesn’t mean the withdrawl shouldn’t be based on reason. Does the democratically elected leadership in Iraq want us to withdrawl immediately? Should we consider the possible destabiliation of withdrawing too soon? Is it possible that a hasty withdrawl could cost more Iraqi lives than a more thoughtful one?
Comment by CaptainMantastic — January 6, 2008 @ 4:39 pm
Well, following that “logic” one could say:
Since their are so many Mexican nationals here illegally, and it would be expensive and dangerous to send them home, we should just let them stay and hope things improve.
January 6th, 2008 at 4:47 pmJoseph Gerson answered this question March 19, 2007:
http://www.commondreams.org/views07/0319-26.htm
January 6th, 2008 at 4:51 pmYou let the troll win again
January 6th, 2008 at 4:54 pmIt’s Imperialism, Stupid
by Noam Chomsky
Khaleej Times, July 4, 2005
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20050704.htm
January 6th, 2008 at 4:55 pmComment by republicans hate facts — January 6, 2008 @ 4:49 pm
Yeah, it’s scary to think like a neocon. One comes up with ideas like:
We should have let Hitler keep France because lots of French were killed.
We should help Turkey conquer Kurdistan because they don’t have as much oil.
We should invade Cuba because Castro says mean things about us.
O.K. I have to stop now. The fact remains that there is no lawful reason to continue an unlawful occupation. Fortunately, in the long term, most people realize that.
January 6th, 2008 at 4:58 pmI was just curious to know if anyone knows by comparison to iraq just how many troops we have in places like south korea and germany?
January 6th, 2008 at 4:58 pmI suggest we let it play out.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — January 6, 2008 @ 4:42 pm
Then I suggest you and your kind get your asses over there and see to it.
Otherwise, you’re in the dream-state minority.
January 6th, 2008 at 5:00 pmBTW, at one time McCain was honorable enough to know that aggressive war is unforgivable.
BTWX2, the people, and government want us out. However, we won’t even explore the option until they pass an “Oil Revenue Sharing Law” which includes provisions for foreign oil companies to control a sizable portion of Iraq’s oil.
Here’s a news flash: IT’S NOT OUR OIL!
January 6th, 2008 at 5:03 pmBrief history of US interventions in the Middle East up through 2001:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6308.htm
January 6th, 2008 at 5:03 pmHey, if he acted like a WOMAN, not a problem. Instead he acts like a SPOILED LITTLE PRINCESS… That’s what I call him!
Comment by republicans hate facts — January 6, 2008 @ 4:44 pm
Last time I looked spoiled little princesses and women were both female, and since humans tend to generalize, all women are diminished by such talk.
You are aware that this is sexism, and yet you choose to continue, which makes you as bad as a troll.
January 6th, 2008 at 5:04 pmI could be wrong. But, that is how I think.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — January 6, 2008 @ 5:02 pm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That’s the problem with Republicans. Every time they try to think, they dig America into a deeper hole.
January 6th, 2008 at 5:06 pmBTWX2, the people, and government want us out. However, we won’t even explore the option until they pass an “Oil Revenue Sharing Law†which includes provisions for foreign oil companies to control a sizable portion of Iraq’s oil.
Here’s a news flash: IT’S NOT OUR OIL!
Comment by Impolitics — January 6, 2008 @ 5:03 pm
Its always been about oil but it would have been hard to sell that to the American people. That’s where the lies about WMDs came in.
January 6th, 2008 at 5:08 pmComment by CaptainMantastic — January 6, 2008 @ 5:09 pm
I think I’d better scroll up a bit and actually read rather than skim as this can’t possible say what it appears to.
January 6th, 2008 at 5:11 pmI’m sorry honey but the trolls just shut this thread down and you want to take issue with a lefty for not being pc?
January 6th, 2008 at 5:13 pmI don’t consider tithing money to violent assassination advocates like Pat Robertson charity.
Maybe it’s just me.
-GSD
January 6th, 2008 at 5:15 pmComment by Fred — January 6, 2008 @ 5:13 pm
That would have come off better if you had dropped the honey. Still adding it indicates a cruel yet potentially amusing sense of humor.
January 6th, 2008 at 5:16 pmBesides, If I were a woman, I wouldn’t be here posting, I’d be hold up in my room in front of a mirror enjoying my appreciation at the sacred feminine.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — January 6, 2008 @ 5:09 pm
Benevolent sexism is still sexism.
January 6th, 2008 at 5:16 pmI’m sorry honey but the trolls just shut this thread down and you want to take issue with a lefty for not being pc?
Comment by Fred — January 6, 2008 @ 5:13 pm
F-ck off, Fred.
I’m addressing a long pattern of sexist behavior. If you have a problem with that — honey — find a better moderated blog.
January 6th, 2008 at 5:18 pmPerhaps careful consideration of the following voices from the might be in order:
In peace, sons bury their fathers; in war, fathers bury their sons.
~Herodotus
Can anything be more ridiculous than that a man has a right to kill me because he lives on the other side of the water, and because his ruler has quarrel with mine, although I have none with him? ~Blaise Pascal
No protracted war can fail to endanger the freedom of a democratic country. ~Alexis de Tocqueville
We Americans have no commission from God to police the world.
~Benjamin Harrison
No nation ever had an army large enough to guarantee it against attack in time of peace, or ensure it of victory in time of war. ~Calvin Coolidge
Probably, no nation is rich enough to pay for both war and civilization. We must make our choice; we cannot have both. ~Abraham Flexner
Statism needs war; a free country does not. Statism survives by looting; a free country survives by producing. ~Ayn Rand
It is part of the general pattern of misguided policy that our country is now geared to an arms economy which was bred in an artificially induced psychosis of war hysteria and nurtured upon an incessant propaganda of fear. ~General Douglas MacArthur
War against a foreign country only happens when the moneyed classes think they are going to profit from it. ~George Orwell
We must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex.
~Dwight D. Eisenhower
Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly, I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked about such a thing.
~Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1953
Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is perhaps the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other.
~James Madison
No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.
~James Madison
The means of defense against foreign danger historically have become the instruments of tyranny at home. ~James Madison
No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.
~James Madison
Although all of these quotations are applicable, the last, by James Madison, is perhaps the most pertinent to McCain’s statement about spending 10,000 years in Iraq.
Any moderator who takes their job seriously would present McCain with a list of quotes such as these, and ask him point blank, “Why should we disbelieve all of these people and believe you instead?”
January 6th, 2008 at 5:18 pmComment by Zooey — January 6, 2008 @ 5:18 pm
Is it possible Fred was being sarcastic? If not, keep hammering him!
January 6th, 2008 at 5:22 pmAnyone who doesn’t realize that the majority of americans abhore this illegal war (occupation) for every reason imaginable, not to mention that it’s tanking this country economically, has to be living under a rock or totally braindead. In McInsane’s case, I guess we know which category would best describe him. Maybe he’s a con-joined “twin” in the Shrub’s bubble-world??
January 6th, 2008 at 5:23 pmZooey, the honey part was kinda stupid I admit but I said it to make a point. That is as you say a long pattern…..one we are and will be dealing with for a while. My question is why aren’t you more upset that the trolls are allowed to dominate the threads here?
January 6th, 2008 at 5:23 pm#232, Impolitics,
“The fact remains that there is no lawful reason to continue an unlawful occupation.”
You are incorrect. The Multi-National Force in Iraq is operating a United Nations Seurity Council Mandate. The Security Council renewed the mandate on December 18, 2007 and extended it to December 31, 2008 (Resolution 1790).
The full text of resolution 1790 (2007) reads as follows:
“The Security Council, …“Determining that the situation in Iraq continues to constitute a threat to international peace and security, Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations,
“1. Notes that the presence of the multinational force in Iraq is at the request of the Government of Iraq and reaffirms the authorization for the multinational force as set forth in resolution 1546 (2004) and decides to extend the mandate as set forth in that resolution until 31 December 2008, taking into consideration the Iraqi Prime Minister’s letter dated 7 December 2007, including all of the objectives highlighted therein, and the United States Secretary of State’s letter dated 10 December 2007; ”
Full resolution:
http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N07/650/72/PDF/N0765072.pdf?OpenElement
Thus, the assertion that the presence of US and multinational forces in Iraq is violative of international law is demonstrably false.
January 6th, 2008 at 5:24 pmThis ridiculous comment not only clinches the case for serious delusional psychopathology but illustrates how totally out of synch this old fool is with the pulse of the american people. McCain’s not intelligent enough or young enough to even be campaigning – not to mention his cancer situation.
According to the youth of this country, he made a blathering fool of himself in his incessant jabs at Romney last night and was a pure example of what a damn bunch of old reptard fools act like on national television. McCain should be ashamed of his infantile behavior.
January 6th, 2008 at 5:26 pmYou’re ENTITLED TO THAT, but if you HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT – - honey – - find a better moderated blog…
Comment by republicans hate facts — January 6, 2008 @ 5:21 pm
**yawn**
January 6th, 2008 at 5:26 pmThe democratic debate, in total contrast, looked like a group of concerned candidates intelligently discussing the issues; The repturds looked like a gang of thugs or schoolyard bullies whose main objective in life is the fine art of “war mongering”. They looked like a group of juvenile delinquents.
January 6th, 2008 at 5:27 pmIs it possible Fred was being sarcastic? If not, keep hammering him!
Comment by dbadass — January 6, 2008 @ 5:22 pm
Quite possible. If so, I will apologize.
January 6th, 2008 at 5:27 pmzooey….please see 260. not apology necessary……dumb humor on my part.
January 6th, 2008 at 5:31 pmThus, the assertion that the presence of US and multinational forces in Iraq is violative of international law is demonstrably false.
Comment by Exley — January 6, 2008 @ 5:24 pm
Tell that to the families of the innocent dead. Tell that to those who aren’t “in our pockets”. Tell that to those who don’t stand to get rich from “Revenue Sharing”.
Plus, this thread isn’t even about the next year. It’s about McCain’s statements supporting a PERMANENT U.S. force in Iraq.
January 6th, 2008 at 5:31 pmThus, the assertion that the presence of US and multinational forces in Iraq is violative of international law is demonstrably false.
Comment by Exley — January 6, 2008 @ 5:24 pm
Bush’s invasion of Iraq is illegal. There is no question about that. He did not have the authority of the UN Security Council. He, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the rest can still be charged with war crimes for starting an aggressive war.
January 6th, 2008 at 5:31 pmZooey, the honey part was kinda stupid I admit but I said it to make a point. That is as you say a long pattern…..one we are and will be dealing with for a while. My question is why aren’t you more upset that the trolls are allowed to dominate the threads here?
Comment by Fred — January 6, 2008 @ 5:23 pm
You’re right, Fred. Social patterns take a long time to change, and they certainly do not change if they remain unchallenged. I recognize the fact that the end of sexism may not come in my lifetime, but that does not mean that challenging said sexism is not worth doing.
This thread was taken over long before I said anything about the sexist attitude of the trolls here. If you’re new to TP, you haven’t seen troll domination of threads. It’s way better than it used to be.
I have my own blog now. Just visiting.
January 6th, 2008 at 5:32 pmComment by republicans hate facts — January 6, 2008 @ 4:28 pm
Well, ETA, per se has existed only for 40 years (began as a terrorist movement against the dictator Franco), but the problem is far older, the Basque people has been always very fond of its independency and autodetermination, and some people keeps wanting to independize from Spain, altough as of today they have far more liberty than in previous years.
Anyhow, the Republican method of only widespread violence would have been a blood bath if we had used it.
January 6th, 2008 at 5:33 pmrepublicans hate facts
January 6th, 2008 at 5:33 pmPlease….it was meant to be sarcastic not venomous……she will understand our motive when we make it clear…….we can’t be thin skinned too can we?
Comment by Impolitics — January 6, 2008 @ 5:31 pm
Oops! Also, look at the date. The “mandate” is nothing more, or less, than a fabrication to keep the guilty from standing trial.
January 6th, 2008 at 5:33 pmJust ignore John Kerry……don’t even act like he exists…..no one respond to him or even acknowledge his existance from this point on…
January 6th, 2008 at 5:40 pmThis just shows that libs don’t have s sense of humor!
Comment by John Kerry — January 6, 2008 @ 5:37 pm
It’s tough to maintain ones sense of humor after 7 years of an evil dictator. Personally? I find it tough not to beat the crap out of adolescent smart asses, just because they remind me of the Chimp.
January 6th, 2008 at 5:42 pmYet this CONFIRMS EXACTLY what Fred said. You show NO CONCERN for the THREAD DERAILMENT – but you HATE my JOKE at CaptTardedness… Priorities indeed…
Comment by republicans hate facts — January 6, 2008 @ 5:34 pm
It’s truly hilarious and hypocritical that YOU criticize someone else about thread derailment.
How many thousand comments did you burn up going at it with Bartlebee with your stunningly stupid argument about whether or not atheism is a belief system?
And oh, are you on topic now?
January 6th, 2008 at 5:43 pmAnd? I have yet to see one reason why McCain shouldn’t be put out to pasture for his impolitic remarks. His lust for power has unbalanced him.
January 6th, 2008 at 5:44 pm#277, Impolitics,
You stated in posting 232 that the “occupation” of Iraq was “unlawful.” As you now see, that statement is incorrect. The presence of the US-led multinational force has been sanctioned and approved by the United Nations Security Council since the adoption of UN Security Council Resolution 1483 in 2003.
January 6th, 2008 at 5:44 pmhey guys…..there is just one troll here right now…..the rest of us are progressives.
how many troops do we have in s korea and germany? anyone?
January 6th, 2008 at 5:45 pmOh heah…..Exley is a troll too….guess if we ignore him completely from this point on that it will be like he doesn’t exist.
January 6th, 2008 at 5:47 pmComment by Exley — January 6, 2008 @ 5:44 pm
So you now are a defender of the UN rulings? Let’s execute also the Resolutions that involve Israel and the US is vetoing?
January 6th, 2008 at 5:51 pmYet this CONFIRMS EXACTLY what Fred said. You show NO CONCERN for the THREAD DERAILMENT – but you HATE my JOKE at CaptTardedness… Priorities indeed…
Comment by republicans hate facts — January 6, 2008 @ 5:34 pm
Zooey has knocked troll heads more times than I can count, and specifically for derailing threads. The only thin skin around here is yours; clearly, no one is allowed to correct or criticize your behavior without being subjected to your CAPS HEAVY ABUSE.
Zooey pointed out the inherent sexism in some of the remarks being made and the so-called progressives started up with (unfortunately typical) condescension. Why not listen for a change?
January 6th, 2008 at 5:52 pmExley,
January 6th, 2008 at 5:56 pmWhen you say “multi-national force”—do you mean the janitor from Palau is still there? I thought he left.
Zooey pointed out the inherent sexism in some of the remarks being made and the so-called progressives started up with (unfortunately typical) condescension. Why not listen for a change?
Comment by gummitch — January 6, 2008 @ 5:52 pm
Thank you, kind sir. :-)
January 6th, 2008 at 5:56 pmUN 1483 was passed after the invasion. The invasion was condoned, to the extent it was condoned by 1414 (which is widely disputed), contingent upon Saddam’s possession of WMD’s.
No WMD’s= No lawful justification for military action.
Also, 1483. if one reads it, calls for a strong UN presence, and oversight, during Iraq’s reconstruction. I haven’t seen many baby-blue helmets in Iraq.
And, 1483, most definitely does not call for permanent occupation.
January 6th, 2008 at 5:58 pmI agree with gummitch and honey, I mean Zooey.
January 6th, 2008 at 5:58 pmSo you now are a defender of the UN rulings?
Comment by Evil Spaniard — January 6, 2008 @ 5:51 pm
Of course. If it benefits his argument.
January 6th, 2008 at 5:59 pmThe invasion was condoned, to the extent it was condoned by 1414 (which is widely disputed), contingent upon Saddam’s possession of WMD’s.
Comment by Impolitics — January 6, 2008 @ 5:58 pm
That should be Res. 1441.
January 6th, 2008 at 6:00 pmI agree with gummitch and honey, I mean Zooey.
Comment by Keith — January 6, 2008 @ 5:58 pm
Don’t make me come over there! :-D
January 6th, 2008 at 6:00 pm1414 said Saddam must allow inspections, disarm, and disclose. He did, he did, and he did!
I agree, evil Spaniard, can we please have the US stop vetoing 200-to-1 UN resolutions against Israel. (Chomsky writes well on this topic).
January 6th, 2008 at 6:01 pmResolution 1441 was most prominent during the run up to the war and formed the main backdrop for Secretary of State Colin Powell’s address to the Security Council.
Critics and proponents of the legal rationale based on the U.N. resolutions argue that the legal right to determine how to enforce its resolutions lies with the Security Council alone, not with individual nations.
January 6th, 2008 at 6:02 pmAlso, 1483. if one reads it, calls for a strong UN presence, and oversight, during Iraq’s reconstruction. I haven’t seen many baby-blue helmets in Iraq.
Comment by Impolitics — January 6, 2008 @ 5:58 pm
This means the Bush administration is in violation of the the resolution.
January 6th, 2008 at 6:02 pm1441, not 1414
January 6th, 2008 at 6:03 pmI agree, evil Spaniard, can we please have the US stop vetoing 200-to-1 UN resolutions against Israel. (Chomsky writes well on this topic).
Comment by Keith — January 6, 2008 @ 6:01 pm
Also, stop vetoing resolutions against the U.S.
January 6th, 2008 at 6:06 pm#294, Impolitics,
“And, 1483, most definitely does not call for permanent occupation.”
Indeed, you are correct. Nor did I make that claim. As I said, it extends the UN mandate that began in 2003 to the end of 2008. I simply wanted to correct the erroneous assertion that the current “occupation” was unlawful.
Nor is Sen. McCain talking about permanent “occupation.” When he is talking about a long-term presence, he is talking about an invited presence such as we have in Japan and Germany.
January 6th, 2008 at 6:08 pmOne of the main questions in the lead-up to the war was whether the United Nations Security Council would authorize military intervention in Iraq. When it became increasingly clear that U.N. authorization would require significant further weapons inspections, and that the U.S. and Britain planned to invade Iraq regardless, many criticized their effort as unwise, immoral, and illegal. Robin Cook, then the leader of the British House of Commons and a former foreign secretary, resigned from Tony Blair’s cabinet in protest over Britain’s decision to invade without the authorization of a U.N. resolution. Cook said at the time that: “In principle I believe it is wrong to embark on military action without broad international support. In practice I believe it is against Britain’s interests to create a precedent for unilateral military action.â€[153]
United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan said, when pressed in an interview with the BBC in September 2004, “[F]rom our point of view and from the Charter point of view [the war] was illegal.”
January 6th, 2008 at 6:08 pmHague Convention 1907 Article 42
Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army.
January 6th, 2008 at 6:11 pmRE: 306 “[F]rom our point of view and from the Charter point of view [the war] was illegal.â€
Key word… “WAS” illegal. Is this the change Barrack and Edwards plan to bring? Change to the definition of “is” or “was” or even the word “legal”?
January 6th, 2008 at 6:12 pmNor is Sen. McCain talking about permanent “occupation.†When he is talking about a long-term presence, he is talking about an invited presence such as we have in Japan and Germany.
Comment by Exley — January 6, 2008 @ 6:08 pm
Is this from your vaunted psychic super power, or did McCain actually say that? Because what he did say was: “If that seems to be necessary in some respects. It depends on the threat.”
Nothing in there about an invitation; in fact, it sounds quite like “we will stay there as long as we feel threatened.”
January 6th, 2008 at 6:13 pmUnited Nations Charter, Article 48
Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive (Walled off neighborhoods). … The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population (Blackwater etc.) into the territory it occupies.
January 6th, 2008 at 6:15 pmNor is Sen. McCain talking about permanent “occupation.†When he is talking about a long-term presence, he is talking about an invited presence such as we have in Japan and Germany.
Comment by Exley — January 6, 2008 @ 6:08 pm
No he’s not.
January 6th, 2008 at 6:16 pmThe invasion could have only been legal if it had gone through the UN Security Council. For those who cannot remember back five years: We had their phones bugged, and when we figured out the vote was going to be 4 for invasion and 11 opposed (even without mentioning a potential veto from one of the Big Five), we withdrew the resolution. Therefore the invasion was illegal. It is not really debateable.
January 6th, 2008 at 6:17 pmRE: 306 “[F]rom our point of view and from the Charter point of view [the war] was illegal.â€
Key word… “WAS†illegal. Is this the change Barrack and Edwards plan to bring? Change to the definition of “is†or “was†or even the word “legal�
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 6:12 pm
Then you agree that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the rest should be charged with war crimes for starting an aggressive war.
January 6th, 2008 at 6:19 pm“I don’t think..”….stop right there mc cain, and we’ll all agree with you.
January 6th, 2008 at 6:20 pmDid EVERYONE KNOW that one of ExLax’s SUPER POWERS is the GIFT OF MIND READING? ROTFL!!! That’s why he knows EXACTLY what MCCAIN THINKS even when he SAYS SOMETHING DIFFERENT!!! ;)
Comment by republicans hate facts — January 6, 2008 @ 6:18 pm
Did everyone else know that btruthful (or whatever her alias is today) dropped her little pacifier on the KEYboaRd aGaiN… ;-p
January 6th, 2008 at 6:20 pmOf course, this is all old ground. The U.S. illegally occupied Iraq and continued U.S. presence in Iraq is unlawful. This simple fact should become crystal clear. When the citizens of America reclaim our government from the criminals in office, we will put it to the test.
I wouldn’t trade places with any Bushco member. And, if I did, I would be interviewing lawyers, setting up “defense funds, and working on ways to escape to a country without extradition treaties.
Hey wait, that’s what they appear to be doing.
January 6th, 2008 at 6:20 pmWhen the citizens of America reclaim our government from the criminals in office, we will put it to the test.
Comment by Impolitics — January 6, 2008 @ 6:20 pm
RIGHT ON!!! Let’s start with the idiots we elected in ‘06. you know the last batch that was going to bring more “change”.
January 6th, 2008 at 6:23 pmRIGHT ON!!! Let’s start with the idiots we elected in ‘06. you know the last batch that was going to bring more “changeâ€.
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 6:23 pm
No. Let’s start with the war criminals in the White House.
January 6th, 2008 at 6:26 pm“The continued U.S. presence in Iraq is unlawful.”
Impolitics, Read UN Security Resolution 1790:
Full resolution:
http://daccessdds.un.org/ doc/ UNDOC/ GEN/ N07/ 650/ 72/ PDF/ N0765072.pdf?OpenElement
Simply repeating your erroneous and now-disproved assertion will not make it true.
January 6th, 2008 at 6:26 pmThere are three, major, groups who still maintain the impression that our invasion of Iraq was “legal”.
1) Those who are guilty of war crimes.
January 6th, 2008 at 6:27 pm2) Those with an infantile need to absolve our rulers, thereby absolving themselves.
3) Insane, murderous, fools who just want “dirty Muslims” to die.
No. Let’s start with the war criminals in the White House.
Comment by Nat — January 6, 2008 @ 6:26 pm
Which White House? The one next to the gas station that I now have to bring more “change” to every time I need petro?
January 6th, 2008 at 6:27 pmIt’s illegal alright….we just need to get them in front of a judge that they didn’t buy and the rest will take care of itself.
January 6th, 2008 at 6:29 pmhey btruthful… love the new monniker “republicans hate facts”
Though it’s not entirely true… if we didn’t have facts we wouldn’t have anything to skew! ;-)
January 6th, 2008 at 6:30 pm“I don’t think Americans are concerned if we stay in Iraq for 10,000 Years.”
This comment by John “Iraq War Forever” McCain is simply stunning.
Does anyone need further proof that he is totally delusional and should not be allowed anywhere near the Oval Office?
January 6th, 2008 at 6:31 pmWhich White House? The one next to the gas station that I now have to bring more “change†to every time I need petro?
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 6:27 pm
There’s only one White House idiot.
January 6th, 2008 at 6:32 pmThey passed LOTS OF BILLS (especially in the HOUSE where the GOPStructionists COULDN’T FILIBUSTER!) But NICE OF YOU as the PARTY OF PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to WHINE that PEOPLE COULDN’T DO what YOU BLOCKED THEM FROM DOING!! ROTFL!! You WINGNUTS ARE TARDED!
Comment by republicans hate facts — January 6, 2008 @ 6:29 pm
So they did what they couldn’t do because we blocked them from doing it the way it should have been done? Exactly what did they get done that we didn’t not allow them be able to do?
BTW, I thought you were the one who dislikes stereotyping and hatred. I’m sure there are many people who suffer from mental retardation that would take exception to the fact that you call people “tarded”. So much for the party of goodwill!
January 6th, 2008 at 6:35 pmThere’s only one White House idiot.
Comment by Nat — January 6, 2008 @ 6:32 pm
Actually there have been plenty of White House idiots. The last 2 come to mind!
January 6th, 2008 at 6:37 pmThere’s only one White House idiot.
Comment by Nat — January 6, 2008 @ 6:32 pm
And there will be another one along here in just over a year.
January 6th, 2008 at 6:39 pmAccording to the Hague Convention, the UN Charter, and numerous other international treaties, our invasion of Iraq was unlawful. Ergo, our continued occupation (holding territory with military force) is unlawful. And any continual presence is unlawful.
UN 1790 is another resolution passed, after the fact, to shield the guilty from immediate prosecution. Also, though I don’t have a link handy, there’s some doubt about the legitimacy of the current Iraqi government; which would make their “requests” and resolutions null and void.
1790 also calls for the, eventual, removal of foreign forces:
From UN 1790
Recognizing the request from Iraq, the Security Council today decided to extend the mandate of the multinational force in that country — “for the last time“, according to its Permanent Representative — until 31 December 2008.
Acting under Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter, the Council unanimously adopted resolution 1790 (2007), deciding further that the mandate would be reviewed at the request of the Government of Iraq or no later than 15 June 2008. The mandate would be terminated earlier if the Iraqi Government requested the Council to do so.
While the Iraqis would remain grateful to all countries that had assisted in its liberation, no Iraqi wanted the presence of foreign troops on their soil one day longer than necessary.
January 6th, 2008 at 6:42 pmSorry gang. I’m gonna go watch football before the “Clinton did it” B.S. starts up.
Later.
January 6th, 2008 at 6:45 pmROTFL!! You SKEW by IGNORING THE FACTS – just LIKE THIS POST!! ROTFL You’re DUMB!
Comment by republicans hate facts — January 6, 2008 @ 6:31 pm
http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail57.html
January 6th, 2008 at 6:51 pmJust keep it up McInsane. This is completely antithecal (sic?) to what the American people want.
January 6th, 2008 at 6:51 pmall YOU IN PARTICULAR have is MY PITY!! ;)
Comment by republicans hate facts — January 6, 2008 @ 6:43 pm
Can I get some fries with that pity?
Look btruthful, you and I have gone round and round before. I used the name “coachjason” back then. I went to register when TP changed things around but figured it’s time for a fresh start because I’m angry at “my” party. I’ve dropped a few one liners here today because I’m a funny “tard” (as you call it). But in all honesty, I don’t know what to think anymore. Unlike most of the people I’ve talked to on this board, I’ve been to Iraq (2x’s actually and may have to go a third). I have a wife and 3 kids and would hate to kiss them goodbye again. As my oldest is 13 now, I need to make sure he DOESN’T ever have to pick up a gun to go to war. I thought our participation in this war would bring change to a dangerous region of the world. It obviously hasn’t.
January 6th, 2008 at 6:53 pmI heardthe word “Change” about 10 million times by the Democrats last night. But what change are you talking about? Bring the troops home now. Let the region destabilize even more and have to go back in 5 years to clean up the mess we already made? I now know why it’s called a quagmire.
btruthful, I know you’re just gonna shoot some hurtful and/or hateful words at me because that’s what you’ve always done. But in the end, if the Democrats want guys like me to understand them and consider them, isn’t it reasonable that I expect the same from them?
Actually there have been plenty of White House idiots. The last 2 come to mind!
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 6:37 pm
Last TWO BUSHES? NO DOUBT!! ROTFL!!
Comment by republicans hate facts — January 6, 2008 @ 6:44 pm
A definition of “idiot” is: One deficient in judgement and good sense. Therefore both Bush’s AND Clinton are indeed idiots.
January 6th, 2008 at 6:58 pmno phantasyman you don’t get a pass. Many here and around the country and the world knew that this war was wrong. You had the same info we did and you went along with the war. You are an adult do the right thing for the right reason, not because we are nice to you.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:02 pmno phantasyman you don’t get a pass. Many here and around the country and the world knew that this war was wrong. You had the same info we did and you went along with the war. You are an adult do the right thing for the right reason, not because we are nice to you.
Comment by Fred — January 6, 2008 @ 7:02 pm
Just because I think the Republicans are wrong does not make the Democrats right. It’s as idiotic as saying the Athiests are wrong so the Christians have to be right. Besides, I did what was right. I did, and continue to do, the things that make a good American citizen. I serve my country, I pay my taxes, I vote, I go to work everyday.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:06 pmSo what gives you the right to tell me what’s right? What have you done for America?
And I don’t need anyone to be nice to me. I’m just sick and tired of judgeMENTAL idealists that don’t know what their ideals are.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:08 pmI serve my country, I pay my taxes, I vote, I go to work everyday.
So what gives you the right to tell me what’s right? What have you done for America?
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 7:06 pm
Oh yeah, none of us has EVER done those things. What makes you so special?
January 6th, 2008 at 7:08 pmJanuary 6th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
phantoman, I appreciate your service, and you probably know one heck of a lot more about the situation on the ground than I do, but how many generations of American troops will be required to go sacrifice, and for what? We destabilized Iraq by our invasion, the vast majority of Iraqis want us out, we supposedly set up a democracy over there, so why stay?> Do you think that they are totally incapable of charting their own destiny?>
January 6th, 2008 at 7:11 pmP.S., work, pay taxes, served in Nam.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:12 pmOh yeah, none of us has EVER done those things. What makes you so special?
Comment by Zooey — January 6, 2008 @ 7:08 pm
that’s my point, I’m not special. I’m an average American. I do what I’m supposed to do EVERYDAY. Then i get these politicians that constantly tell me they are “gonna fight for me” that “they are gonna fight for change”. But at the end of the day it’s the same old B.S. coming out of different mouths. you think you’re better than the republicans. They think they are better than you. Who is right? Why does everything have to be absolute? Why is it that nothing the other party has ever done can be denoted as “a good thing”?
January 6th, 2008 at 7:14 pmZooey, if you are going to respond to my post with some sort of hypothetical question, why don’t you share with us what you have done? What change you have made. Have you ever answered your country’s call to duty? Have you paid your taxes? Have you ever even voted?
ditto…….
January 6th, 2008 at 7:15 pmI believe that the Democratic party, based on the character of the candidates, as well as historical data, will enact policies that help the middle and lower classes. I know the Republican party has pissed all over us in favor of the upper class.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:17 pmRE 350/351.
Semper Fi! I don’t think that leaving is a bad idea… but if I’m wrong again, then my son has to go back there to “clean up the mess that I helped make.” I want to clean it up now. I’m sure you don’t want any of your grandkids to ever have to go, right? Wouldn’t you do everything in your power to prevent them from seeing what we have seen?
January 6th, 2008 at 7:17 pmI believe that the Democratic party, based on the character of the candidates, as well as historical data, will enact policies that help the middle and lower classes. I know the Republican party has pissed all over us in favor of the upper class.
Comment by RUCerious — January 6, 2008 @ 7:17 pm
What makes you think that any of the Dem. candidates has a clue about running/ending a war? About how to “do it the right way” as Mr. Kerry always liked to say. I would love for Obama to lead us out of the economy we’re in, but I want my sons alive more than that.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:20 pmWho was the uniter? Who has split this country up in ways that make us mean?
I’m sorry, I don’t have to answer any of your questions. I am also tired of hearing what republicans have to say. I don’t care. Remember what they told the democrats when they were in power……sit down and shut up, we are running things now…the nuke option to prevent a legitimate fillibuster….on and on.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:20 pmZooey, if you are going to respond to my post with some sort of hypothetical question, why don’t you share with us what you have done? What change you have made. Have you ever answered your country’s call to duty? Have you paid your taxes? Have you ever even voted?
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 7:14 pm
I have worked and paid taxes since I was 16, taking time out to have two sons, who I raised on my own for 13 years. I have voted in every single election — national, state and local — since I was 18, and from the time my sons were infants I took them into the voting booth with me. Now they are productive citizens, who vote and pay taxes. I have never served in the military. I am now a full time student, working toward a BS degree, and later a Masters, in psychology. I plan on working with Iraq veterans after I achieve my Masters degree.
Any other questions?
January 6th, 2008 at 7:21 pmWho was the uniter?
Comment by Fred — January 6, 2008 @ 7:20 pm
Damn good question… Maybe JFK? There surely hasn’t been one in my lifetime.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:22 pmI believe that the Democratic party, based on the character of the candidates, as well as historical data, will enact policies that help the middle and lower classes. I know the Republican party has pissed all over us in favor of the upper class.
Comment by RUCerious — January 6, 2008 @ 7:17 pm
True. The Dems (true ones) care about people. The Repubs care about their money.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:23 pmDemocrats will do more for the American citizen by accident than republicans will do for them on purpose.
relax phantasyman, the adults are going to be running things soon. Your children will be safe.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:26 pmZooey, I’m sorry if my intention were misunderstood. I was a single father for 5 years until I met my wife. I definitely have respect for your raising children, your voting record, and your honesty. I don’t want to get into a pissing contest with anyone here. I seek first to understand then to be understood. Since I now understand, I am only hoping that you all can understand me. I’m willing to bet that there are thousands of other Americans just like me. Some who are looking for a leader. Some who want to be able to respect their commander in chief. As I look at ALL of the remaining candidates, I do not see a leader. I see another tragedy waiting to be written.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:27 pmMcCain is a tired old weather vane who makes a lousy presidential candidate. Every time the wind changes the direction that it blows – McCain changes his opinion. John McCain is running a popularity contest – not a run for the U.S. Presidency. John McCain is desperate for friendship and companionship – why doesn’t he join Am Vets or the VFW ? He is not presidential material.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:27 pmWhat makes you think that any of the Dem. candidates has a clue about running/ending a war? About how to “do it the right way†as Mr. Kerry always liked to say. I would love for Obama to lead us out of the economy we’re in, but I want my sons alive more than that.
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 7:20 pm
You’re extremely paranoid. Bush Co. has done a number on you.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:28 pmrelax phantasyman, the adults are going to be running things soon. Your children will be safe.
Comment by Fred — January 6, 2008 @ 7:26 pm
Really? That’s what you said before you got control of the congress. I challenge you to name one thing that is now “BETTER” for middleclass America than it was before they got there.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:30 pmTrue. The Dems (true ones) care about people. The Repubs care about their money.
Comment by Zooey — January 6, 2008 @ 7:23 pm
Well like duh!
January 6th, 2008 at 7:31 pmYou’re extremely paranoid. Bush Co. has done a number on you.
Comment by Nat — January 6, 2008 @ 7:28 pm
You need to reread some other posts to understand the context of what I was saying there. I’m not afraid that terrorism will spread to America any worse than it already has, but I know that’s what you thought I meant.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:32 pmComment by Zooey — January 6, 2008 @ 7:21 pm
Just one.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:33 pmPhantasyman # 362 – Total agreement, well said.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:33 pmTrue. The Dems (true ones) care about people. The Repubs care about their money.
STEREOTYPE!!! I’m a registered republican and could care less about money. And I love people.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:34 pmWhere did you come up with that drivel. Please, if you wish to have a conversation at least keep it real. Oh, by the way many things have changes but I’m not going to tell you what they are…..you still have the same mental capacity now that you had when you were suckered into believing that this was a legitimate war. Now prove that you have learned something and find the facts for yourself. You are an adult, right?
January 6th, 2008 at 7:34 pmI want to clean it up now.
And how are you personally going to do that? Are you going to personally knock some sense into Maliki? Are you going to force the political reconciliation that Gen Petraeus says is the only solution>?
More occupation is not the answer, and any of the democratic candidates can withdraw from the occupation, as the Republicans say they won’t. It isn’t a war, it’s an occupation.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:35 pmYou need to reread some other posts to understand the context of what I was saying there. I’m not afraid that terrorism will spread to America any worse than it already has, but I know that’s what you thought I meant.
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 7:32 pm
You were talking about terrorism and your nightmare fantasy/scenario in Iraq if we leave.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:36 pmAs I look at ALL of the remaining candidates, I do not see a leader. I see another tragedy waiting to be written.
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 7:27 pm
Thank you for your kind words, Coach.
I think where you trip up is in looking for perfection. It doesn’t exist. I wish it did. Even our greatest and most beloved presidents had glaring faults. We have to do our best to choose the person who will get the most of what we done, and work toward helping them do their best.
Another tragedy may well be in the cards, it’s one of the hazards we face living on this world today. It would be great if we had a leader who was up to the task.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:36 pmWhere did you come up with that drivel. Please, if you wish to have a conversation at least keep it real. Oh, by the way many things have changes but I’m not going to tell you what they are…..you still have the same mental capacity now that you had when you were suckered into believing that this was a legitimate war. Now prove that you have learned something and find the facts for yourself. You are an adult, right?
Comment by Fred — January 6, 2008 @ 7:34 pm
Great… another NONanswer reply. Ok Dr. Phil, I’ll “get real” and go read one of your books.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:37 pmOf course you are not gonna tell me what they are because there are NONE!
I’m a registered republican and could care less about money. And I love people.
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 7:34 pm
That’s an oxymoron.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:37 pmJust one.
Comment by dbadass — January 6, 2008 @ 7:33 pm
Knock yourself out, dbadass. ;)
January 6th, 2008 at 7:39 pmAs I look at ALL of the remaining candidates, I do not see a leader. I see another tragedy waiting to be written.
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 7:27 pm
Not only that Zooey, but he was wrong the first time when he chose bush. You are supposed to learn from your mistakes.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:39 pmYou were talking about terrorism and your nightmare fantasy/scenario in Iraq if we leave.
Comment by Nat — January 6, 2008 @ 7:36 pm
I’ll tell you what then NAT… Let’s leave. Let’s get out of Iraq. And this time, if I’m right and the region goes straight to hell, let’s send your kids. Let’s send the children of everyone who has the great idea of getting out right now. I’ll bet with my own life, not that of my kids (or yours for that matter). But if that’s the kind of monster that you are, then we can play your little game.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:40 pmI’ll tell you what then NAT… Let’s leave. Let’s get out of Iraq. And this time, if I’m right and the region goes straight to hell, let’s send your kids. Let’s send the children of everyone who has the great idea of getting out right now. I’ll bet with my own life, not that of my kids (or yours for that matter). But if that’s the kind of monster that you are, then we can play your little game.
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 7:40 pm
Your imagination is running wild.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:41 pmif I’m right and the region goes straight to hell, let’s send your kids.
How about letting them figure it out on their own?
January 6th, 2008 at 7:42 pmGreat… another NONanswer reply. Ok Dr. Phil, I’ll “get real†and go read one of your books.
Of course you are not gonna tell me what they are because there are NONE!
Comment by phantasyman
Ok, this is about it for me. I thought at the beginning that you might be serious and actually have a little sense and had been conned….it happens. I’m sorry I can’t help you. You must do it yourself.
have a very pleasant evening.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:43 pmRemember phantomguy, this is Mesapotamia. They’ve had civilization for over three thousand years. Who the hell do you think YOU are to tell them that they need your weapon pointed at them to keep them ‘governed’.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:44 pmHow about letting them figure it out on their own?
Comment by RUCerious — January 6, 2008 @ 7:42 pm
U can’t be serious! Let our kids clean up our mess. Are you sure you were in Vietnam? I don’t know of anyone who has seen live combat that would leet their kids have even the slightest possibility of doing the same. It’s inhuman.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:45 pmAs I look at ALL of the remaining candidates, I do not see a leader. I see another tragedy waiting to be written.
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 7:27 pm
Then sit back and see what happens. History is what occurs not how it is interpreted.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:45 pmAgain, how and what are you going to do in Iraq? Why do you disagree with General Petraeus, that a political solution is required. Are you going to provide that political solution?
January 6th, 2008 at 7:45 pmSome who are looking for a leader.
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 7:27 pm
That might just be the problem. I’ve had it up to HERE with “leaders”. I think we should be looking for someone who will represent US. Someone who will embody OUR ideals.
While I share your disillusionment with current politicians, I think that we need to send a clear message to the world. The best way to do that is, IMO, to root out the neocons and salt the earth they grew in. And, turning Bushco over to an international court would be a nice bonus. I see no other way to make, meaningful, change.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:46 pmNot only that Zooey, but he was wrong the first time when he chose bush. You are supposed to learn from your mistakes.
Comment by Fred — January 6, 2008 @ 7:39 pm
Always a plus, but seriously lacking in this country.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:46 pmAre you sure you were in Vietnam? I don’t know of anyone who has seen live combat that would leet their kids have even the slightest possibility of doing the same. It’s inhuman.
Yes, DaNang and Phu Bai, 69 -70. Your premise is completely false, that American kids would be going back there. Once we depart, the Iraqis will figure out their future on their own. Why do you think they need your ‘help’ at the end of a gun barrel?
January 6th, 2008 at 7:47 pmU can’t be serious! Let our kids clean up our mess. Are you sure you were in Vietnam? I don’t know of anyone who has seen live combat that would leet their kids have even the slightest possibility of doing the same. It’s inhuman.
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 7:45 pm
Again, your paranoia is kicking in.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:47 pmIt’s borderline racist to think that WE should be dictating form and style of government to those ‘brown’ people.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:49 pmActually, withdrawing from ‘The Front Lines’ is exactly what John Murtha suggested.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:49 pmRemember phantomguy, this is Mesapotamia. They’ve had civilization for over three thousand years. Who the hell do you think YOU are to tell them that they need your weapon pointed at them to keep them ‘governed’.
Comment by RUCerious — January 6, 2008 @ 7:44 pm
That’s not my point… How many thousands of those 3000 years has that region been at war in some form or another? I’m not talking about pointing guns at them. I’m talking about stability. I’m talking doing everything in our power to make sure that when we do leave, that it’s for good. That they can survive as a people and a government without help. That they don’t have to live in fear of us, themselves, their neighbors, and their enemies. that if they are faced with threats and terrorism, that they can handle it themselves, or at least with minimal outside interference.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:49 pm“I don’t know of anyone who has seen live combat that would leet their kids have even the slightest possibility of doing the same. It’s inhuman.”
Comment by phantasyman
Speaking of Dick and George, haven’t seen or heard much from the lil fellers lately, are they still on Christmas break?
January 6th, 2008 at 7:50 pmAnd I see you haven’t really answered any of the questions I’ve posed to you, so it’s time for me to go out to the garage and work on my daughter’s bookcase.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:50 pmU can’t be serious! Let our kids clean up our mess. Are you sure you were in Vietnam? I don’t know of anyone who has seen live combat that would leet their kids have even the slightest possibility of doing the same. It’s inhuman.
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 7:45 pm
Slow down and read. He said “their own” and referred to the people who actually live in Iraq. He wasn’t talking about our kids.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:50 pmAre you going to provide that political solution?
Comment by RUCerious — January 6, 2008 @ 7:45 pm
Are you asking me to run for office?
January 6th, 2008 at 7:51 pmphantomguy
January 6th, 2008 at 7:52 pmYou’re not learning from your mistakes….this was a mistake….
I’m talking about stability. I’m talking doing everything in our power to make sure that when we do leave, that it’s for good. That they can survive as a people and a government without help
more borderline paternalistic racism. They don’t need our help to do that. Why aren’t you going to impose a reconciliation on them at the point of a gun?>
January 6th, 2008 at 7:52 pmAre you asking me to run for office?
Comment by phantasyman
If RUCerious doesn’t have a more lucrative post for you to consider, there is an animal control officer position open in our town.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:53 pmI’m talking doing everything in our power to make sure that when we do leave, that it’s for good.
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 7:49 pm
The Iraqis are not going to accept an occupying force so our attempts are futile. Our best bet is to leave and let the Iraqis sort things out.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:54 pmThat’s not my point… How many thousands of those 3000 years has that region been at war in some form or another? I’m not talking about pointing guns at them. I’m talking about stability. I’m talking doing everything in our power to make sure that when we do leave, that it’s for good. That they can survive as a people and a government without help. That they don’t have to live in fear of us, themselves, their neighbors, and their enemies. that if they are faced with threats and terrorism, that they can handle it themselves, or at least with minimal outside interference.
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 7:49 pm
Now I understand the “phantasy” part. The only times they’ve ever had that sort of cohesion was under a dictator or an empire. People create that sort of world for themselves, it’s never imposed on them. If there is an opportunity for stability, they’ll have to find it themselves and US forces in occupation do nothing but prolong that time.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:56 pmThat’s not my point… How many thousands of those 3000 years has that region been at war in some form or another? I’m not talking about pointing guns at them. I’m talking about stability. I’m talking doing everything in our power to make sure that when we do leave, that it’s for good. That they can survive as a people and a government without help. That they don’t have to live in fear of us, themselves, their neighbors, and their enemies. that if they are faced with threats and terrorism, that they can handle it themselves, or at least with minimal outside interference.
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 7:49 pm
Hitler called that “The Final Solution”. Most people think it was a bad idea.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:56 pmYour premise is completely false, that American kids would be going back there.
Comment by RUCerious — January 6, 2008 @ 7:47 pm
I didn’t say they were, I just need to make sure they don’t have to. I pray to GOD that you are right. That we can just leave and all will be forgiven. That we can pack up and never look back. But I live here in the real world. There are already terrorists/terrorism in that country. They gonna just go away when American soldiers head for home. Can we just forget about the shambles we would be leaving that country in? Do we just sign a big ole “whoops, my bad” sign and hang it around their border? You think the ones who would die fighting us everyday, would just forget about their hatred and skip out on the opportunity to seize power when we pull out? and you call me disillusioned…
January 6th, 2008 at 7:57 pmphantasyman,
January 6th, 2008 at 8:00 pmthe commies were supposed to follow us home when we left nam
BTW, our descendants, probably for many generations, will live in a more dangerous world. That’s a given and there’s one reason. HINT: He’s the 43rd President of the United States.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:01 pmYou remind me of those fish….you know the ones that get caught. You have bought the warmongers lines hook, line and sinker.
Get this…..they are not coming to the states except as legal immigrants. They won’t be loading up in boats and heading for Miami.
As far as terrorism, we can prevent that if we have the will and the intelligence. It won’t be done by paranoid actions against legitmate citizens though.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:04 pmI give a shit, Senator. So I ain’t votin for you.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:04 pmphantomguy
You’re not learning from your mistakes….this was a mistake….
Comment by Fred — January 6, 2008 @ 7:52 pm
AGREED! It was a mistake. But we can ill afford to make another, not when my childrens lives are on the line.
I know I’ve set myself up for attack by you nice folks here on TP. Like I said, I don’t want to get into a pissing contest with any of you. I understand what you are saying. I realize that getting out now could possibly be the only viable solution. But I’m personally not sure. Not when I have a son that is less than 5 years away from being of draft age. I know that any of you that have kids have to feel the same way. And I did learn from my mistkes, that is why I am doing my best to weigh ALL options before I decide… Not just what my party says is the right thing. that is why I’m here. that is why I watched the debates. That is why I’m following this election so closely. That is why I care. Call me whatever names you want, from retarded, to disillusioned, to an idiot. It still does nothing to change the fact that I’m scared for my son(s) lives. That I care too much about them and your kids to not want to do the right thing.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:04 pmDang. Sincere “Kool-aid drinkers” depress the hell out of me.
Good night.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:05 pmThat’s not my point… How many thousands of those 3000 years has that region been at war in some form or another?
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 7:49 pm
How many times have we been at war in our 200+ years? When do we get invaded and stabilized?
How arrogant can you get?
January 6th, 2008 at 8:05 pmand you call me disillusioned…
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 7:57 pm
I’m not calling you delusional; I’m calling you paranoid with your doom and gloom scenario.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:09 pm… furthermore, to think that you have the only solution scares the crap right outta me. Yours is not perfect.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:10 pmLike Zooey said earlier, there are no perfect candidates. There then can be no perfect solution. I never said that the Terrorists/Insurgents (whatever they’re called this week) would follow us home. But it would only take 1 to do so. It would only take one action on a scale grand enough in that region, with a President foolish enough, to be right back where we started.
I know I’ve set myself up for attack by you nice folks here on TP.
Comment by phantasyman
I don’t think anyone has been abusive of you here tonight. We don’t have a lot of patience with those of you who can’t see what seems so obvious to us and we would like for you to be able to figure it out for yourself but I think most here understand where you are coming from.
I’m going to have to say that after reading your post #409 that I think you are probably not a republican. If you are it is because of your family or other external influences, and the fact is that you really don’t agree with most of what republicans say they stand for.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:13 pmIt still does nothing to change the fact that I’m scared for my son(s) lives. That I care too much about them and your kids to not want to do the right thing.
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 8:04 pm
You’re getting paranoid over the wrong thing. Maintaining our presence smack-dab in the Middle East is what could likely lead to something happening to your son(s).
January 6th, 2008 at 8:13 pmLike Zooey said earlier, there are no perfect candidates. There then can be no perfect solution. I never said that the Terrorists/Insurgents (whatever they’re called this week) would follow us home. But it would only take 1 to do so. It would only take one action on a scale grand enough in that region, with a President foolish enough, to be right back where we started.
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 8:10 pm
I think we were better off before 9/11.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:15 pmYou’re getting paranoid over the wrong thing. Maintaining our presence smack-dab in the Middle East is what could likely lead to something happening to your son(s).
Comment by Nat — January 6, 2008 @ 8:13 pm
Bingo. Nothing like yet another invasion — of Iran or Pakistan — to trigger a draft.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:16 pmYou’re getting paranoid over the wrong thing. Maintaining our presence smack-dab in the Middle East is what could likely lead to something happening to your son(s).
Comment by Nat
I’m going to have to agree with this…….completely
January 6th, 2008 at 8:16 pmHow many times have we been at war in our 200+ years? When do we get invaded and stabilized?
How arrogant can you get?
Comment by Zooey — January 6, 2008 @ 8:05 pm
So now I’m an arrogant retarded dilussional idiot. So that’s the Crux of your debate. I came here to seek first to understand than to be understood. This is the best understanding you can come up with? When do we get invaded? Remember that little place called Pearl Harbor? What about 9/11? Those weren’t invasions? We’re stable because our forefathers had the vision that there was this place that ideas and dreams could be achieved. A place where debate lwould ead to understanding. That we are all created equal and yet we are all unique. Where the system of governement is not only of , for, and by the people but BECAUSE of the people. A place where knowledge is gained not by showing others how much you know but by listening to how much you don’t.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:17 pmI think we were better off before 9/11.
Comment by Nat — January 6, 2008 @ 8:15 pm
Correction: before Jan 2000
9/11 would probably not happened if Clinton was still in office or Gore won, because certain memos would not have been ignored…….
January 6th, 2008 at 8:18 pmfurthermore, to think that you have the only solution scares the crap right outta me. Yours is not perfect.
Comment by phantasyman
Only if you compare it to what is going on now.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:18 pmA place where knowledge is gained not by showing others how much you know but by listening to how much you don’t.
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 8:17 pm
So sit back and listen while we educate you.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:19 pmCorrection: before Jan 2000
9/11 would probably not happened if Clinton was still in office or Gore won, because certain memos would not have been ignored…….
Comment by Wayne — January 6, 2008 @ 8:18 pm
Correction noted.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:20 pmYou’re getting paranoid over the wrong thing. Maintaining our presence smack-dab in the Middle East is what could likely lead to something happening to your son(s).
Comment by Nat
I’m going to have to agree with this…….completely
Comment by Fred — January 6, 2008 @ 8:16 pm
you’re probably right about that too… but before I cast a ballot next November I have to do so with the conscience that I did the best for my family. That not only did I make the right decision, but I can stand behind that decision with conviction, even if my worst fears become reality. That IF my son gets called/drafted to a war in the middle east, that I can tell him I’m sorry – I did everything I could to prevent this…
January 6th, 2008 at 8:22 pmSo now I’m an arrogant retarded dilussional idiot. So that’s the Crux of your debate. I came here to seek first to understand than to be understood.
Comment by phantasyman
Ok….your round the bend now. I didn’t get any of those insults from any other post than this one…..
It’s ok for you to come here to try to understand but honestly, speaking for myself, I could care less about understanding you. You are the one who is lost and looking for answers.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:23 pm9/11 would probably not happened if Clinton was still in office or Gore won, because certain memos would not have been ignored…….
Comment by Wayne — January 6, 2008 @ 8:18 pm
And there were a lot of warnings besides the memo.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:24 pmA place where knowledge is gained not by showing others how much you know but by listening to how much you don’t.
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 8:17 pm
So sit back and listen while we educate you.
Comment by Nat — January 6, 2008 @ 8:19 pm
Correction: before Jan 2000
9/11 would probably not happened if Clinton was still in office or Gore won, because certain memos would not have been ignored…….
Comment by Wayne — January 6, 2008 @ 8:18 pm
So now conjecture and what-ifs are an education? I can play that game if you wanna go there. Clinton had Osama and let him go, coulda prevented 9/11 and possibly the 200 elections going how they did.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:24 pmYou’re getting paranoid over the wrong thing. Maintaining our presence smack-dab in the Middle East is what could likely lead to something happening to your son(s).
Comment by Nat — January 6, 2008 @ 8:13 pm
Exactly.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:26 pmThat IF my son gets called/drafted to a war in the middle east, that I can tell him I’m sorry – I did everything I could to prevent this…
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 8:22 pm
The American people are not going to support a draft and no president would be foolish enough to implement one.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:28 pmClinton had Osama and let him go
False right wing talking point clean-up on aisle 7.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:28 pmI could care less about understanding you. You are the one who is lost and looking for answers.
Comment by Fred — January 6, 2008 @ 8:23 pm
You need voters like me… and if you think you don’t I hope you like losing Presidential elections, because in recent history you’re 2-5. But I know that you speak for millions of democrats when you say that you could care less about understanding me. That’s your party line… there are those few that you do care about and try to understand and to hell with the rest of us. TYPICAL!
January 6th, 2008 at 8:28 pmI’ve got to tell you…..and don’t take this wrong zooey, but I’ve had a real hard time all evening responding to someone…male I presume with a username of phantasyman….sorry I just can’t help but snicker a little. Best of luck to you though.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:29 pmSo now conjecture and what-ifs are an education? I can play that game if you wanna go there. Clinton had Osama and let him go, coulda prevented 9/11 and possibly the 200 elections going how they did.
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 8:24 pm
This would be true if Clinton actually had Osama.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:30 pmClinton had Osama and let him go
False right wing talking point clean-up on aisle 7.
Comment by Krazny — January 6, 2008 @ 8:28 pm
Really??? Try doing some reading once in a while and I don’t mean just “Democrat Weekly”.
http://www.infowars.com/saved%20pages/Prior_Knowledge/Clinton_let_bin_laden.htm
January 6th, 2008 at 8:30 pmI’ve got to tell you…..and don’t take this wrong zooey, but I’ve had a real hard time all evening responding to someone…male I presume with a username of phantasyman….sorry I just can’t help but snicker a little. Best of luck to you though.
Comment by Fred — January 6, 2008 @ 8:29 pm
Like I said before… In my day to day life, I’m a funny guy… usually. I can think of nothing funnier than calling myself Phantasyman ;-) At least it’s more creative than Fred. ;-P
January 6th, 2008 at 8:33 pmSo now I’m an arrogant retarded dilussional idiot.
Excuse me, but I didn’t call you delusional, and I NEVER call anyone retarded. Don’t put words in my mouth.
So that’s the Crux of your debate. I came here to seek first to understand than to be understood. This is the best understanding you can come up with? When do we get invaded? Remember that little place called Pearl Harbor? What about 9/11? Those weren’t invasions?
No, they were attacks. Horrible, destructive, deadly attacks. We were not invaded.
We’re stable because our forefathers had the vision that there was this place that ideas and dreams could be achieved. A place where debate lwould ead to understanding. That we are all created equal and yet we are all unique. Where the system of governement is not only of , for, and by the people but BECAUSE of the people.
Preaching to the choir.
A place where knowledge is gained not by showing others how much you know but by listening to how much you don’t.
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 8:17 pm
Best to take one’s own advice.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:34 pmHey phantasyman…..chill. You’re starting to look like a regular troll. And after you warmed our hearts with your talk about how much love you have. Ref post#409
January 6th, 2008 at 8:35 pmSo that’s the Crux of your debate. I came here to seek first to understand than to be understood. This is the best understanding you can come up with? When do we get invaded? Remember that little place called Pearl Harbor? What about 9/11? Those weren’t invasions?
No, they were attacks. Horrible, destructive, deadly attacks. We were not invaded.
Comment by Zooey — January 6, 2008 @ 8:34 pm
Thanks for catching that. This country hasn’t been “invaded” since the War of 1812, and I’m not even sure the British incursions of the time qualified as “invasions.”
January 6th, 2008 at 8:38 pmThat’s your party line… there are those few that you do care about and try to understand and to hell with the rest of us. TYPICAL!
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 8:28 pm
Dude, I think we’ve been fair to you. You’re the one who runs it off the rails every time your belief set is challenged.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:39 pmAlright Fred… I’m chilled…Did the Chargers beat the titans yet?
Please don’t get me wrong, I’m sort of enjoying debating with a couple of you. Especially the ones who can back up their arguements. Respect is earned and most of you have earned mine (i.e. Zooey, RUSerious, and maybe even a little Fred). I’d like to be perceived as bold enough in my convictions to earn yours as well.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:40 pmAnd I’d like to consider myself an above average troll… or hows about phantasytroll????
Dude, I think we’ve been fair to you. You’re the one who runs it off the rails every time your belief set is challenged.
Comment by Zooey — January 6, 2008 @ 8:39 pm
LOLOLOLOLOLOL… I love that you just called me DUDE! That’s much better than arrogant! :-P
January 6th, 2008 at 8:42 pmI’ve got to tell you…..and don’t take this wrong zooey, but I’ve had a real hard time all evening responding to someone…male I presume with a username of phantasyman….sorry I just can’t help but snicker a little. Best of luck to you though.
Comment by Fred — January 6, 2008 @ 8:29 pm
Then you’ll be looking forward to “CaptainMantastic.” :-D
January 6th, 2008 at 8:42 pmReally??? Try doing some reading once in a while and I don’t mean just “Democrat Weeklyâ€.
http://www.infowars.com/ saved%20pages/ Prior_Knowledge/ Clinton_let_bin_laden.htm
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 8:30 pm
A little background check on the author of this document, shows he worked for the Reagan Admin, and is no longer used by Fox News as an expert despite having appeared on the network several times, because he made stuff up about his dealings with the Kashmir situation. I don’t find the author reliable.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:43 pmAlright Fred… I’m chilled…Did the Chargers beat the titans yet?
Comment by phantasytroll
Heh, I don’t really know the score….I’ve got a chess game going on my right with my 24 year old engineering student son and a game of starcraft going on another computer networked with a 14 year old son……think I’m losing that one.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:45 pmReally??? Try doing some reading once in a while and I don’t mean just “Democrat Weeklyâ€.
http://www.infowars.com/ saved%20pages/ Prior_Knowledge/ Clinton_let_bin_laden.htm
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 8:30 pm
What was Clinton supposed to do about bin Laden in 1996? At the time, bin Laden had committed no acts against the US. Should he have been held because he was going to do so in the future? Was Clinton supposed to have the pyschic super powers of some of our trolls, and predicted 9/11 five years ahead of time?
Maybe you should take your own advice and do a little reading outside of NewsMax.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:46 pmRE 444
January 6th, 2008 at 8:48 pmFair enough… I’m afraid I can’t produce it but about 2-3 years ago, Sean Hannity had fmr President Clinton on the air and asked him directly about it. Clinton responded with the notion that he had no legal reason to either abduct or eliminate Osama at that time. Which Hannity took him to task on saying that he was on the FBI’s most wanted list and that he sent the Recon team there in the first place to find Bin-Ladin and asked why he didn’t take him out then….
I know you may think hannity is not reliable either, but I’m sure you’ll agree that Clinton is a pretty reliable source for that incident. I wish there was a way I could google the interview, but I’m afraid all I can do is ask you to believe me on this one. I really have no reason to lie about it.
Was Clinton supposed to have the pyschic super powers
Comment by gummitch — January 6, 2008 @ 8:46 pm
You mean he doesn’t??? I thought all you Dems thought he was GOD! (lol)
January 6th, 2008 at 8:49 pmSee there Fred… Your monniker should have been multitasKING. HA!
January 6th, 2008 at 8:52 pmI know you may think hannity is not reliable either, but I’m sure you’ll agree that Clinton is a pretty reliable source for that incident. I wish there was a way I could google the interview, but I’m afraid all I can do is ask you to believe me on this one. I really have no reason to lie about it.
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 8:48 pm
Here’s the relevant portion of the interview, along with some context. Pay close attention to the findings of the 9/11 Commission.
We eagerly await your apology.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:54 pmYou mean he doesn’t??? I thought all you Dems thought he was GOD! (lol)
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 8:49 pm
Ho ho. There are several grotesquely false assumptions in your comment.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:54 pmThere is a good chance that the bush admin. brought 9/11 on us by thier actions in afganistan in July 2001. I really don’t believe that the US really had any serious reason to fear osama until then.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:54 pmFunny how Bush only surrounded bin Laden on THREE sides at Tora Bora—the fourth being an extremely easy exit to Pakistan. And then left him and his men sitting in Pakistan the past 6+ years. Bush said “you know, I really don’t think that much about him.”
Funny how an investor to Bush’s first OIL company was bin Laden’s brother.
Funny how Bush kisses and holds hands with the leaders of Saudi Arabia who contribute to his and his father’s OIL companies.
Funny how 16 of the 9/11 men came from Saudi Arabia and none from Iraq nor Iran.
Funny how Iraq has the #2 OIL reserves in the world and Iran #3.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:55 pmYou mean he doesn’t??? I thought all you Dems thought he was GOD! (lol)
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 8:49 pm
We progressives tend to have more reality based thinking.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:58 pmI remember Clinton firing many cruise missiles at the al Qaeda camp in Afghanistan and all the Republicans squealing “wag the dog! You’re trying to distract us from Monica!”
January 6th, 2008 at 9:00 pmPager just went off… time to go to work. Oh look, out the window, it’s the Phantasysignal. I have to go put on my supersuit and save another damsel in distress.
Gummitch, I see you’re doing everything in your powers to rile me up. But Fred (a.k.a. multitasKING) has already cooled down the phantasymachine for tonight. I’ll be glad to show you how foolish I’ve been and how foolish you still are at another time… be sure to tune in tomorrow, same Phantasy time, same Phantasy channel…
Plus I see that the clear conservative is going to keep you busy for a while… if you’re up to the task.
But thank you Zooey and Fred, I’ve enjoyed our banter. Let’s do it again sometime…
Until then… Aloha means goodbye!!!!!
January 6th, 2008 at 9:01 pmWell, clear conservative troll has arrived…..I mean a true troll so I’m going to call it a day…..party is over
January 6th, 2008 at 9:02 pmFred,
Phantasyman is Clear/Pee/Marakios, etc.
January 6th, 2008 at 9:05 pm“The hell with a the training, the acumen, the service of a United States marine, right?”
Comment by The Clear Conservative
And you were complaining about strawmen?
January 6th, 2008 at 9:06 pmThe hell with a the training, the acumen, the service of a United States marine, right?
Comment by The Clear Conservative
walter reid
January 6th, 2008 at 9:07 pmOut of touch and out of the running. It’s hysterical to hear him talk about the American people. With all of the lobbyists and special interests in his office every day, I’m surprised he remembered the reason for this government; of, by, and for the people. From what I’ve seen of him, He has no idea what the mainstream American thinks because he doesn’t give a damn. McCain has paid his hero’s price and I salute him for his service. However, his strong military background makes me doubt that he would have a balanced and objective approach to the world’s problems.
January 6th, 2008 at 9:09 pmGummitch, I see you’re doing everything in your powers to rile me up. But Fred (a.k.a. multitasKING) has already cooled down the phantasymachine for tonight. I’ll be glad to show you how foolish I’ve been and how foolish you still are at another time… be sure to tune in tomorrow, same Phantasy time, same Phantasy channel…
Yeah, gummitch has some nerve PROVING your Hannity/Clinton assertion wrong. Came up with it pretty quick, too!
But thank you Zooey and Fred, I’ve enjoyed our banter. Let’s do it again sometime…
Until then… Aloha means goodbye!!!!!
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 9:01 pm
Probably not…
January 6th, 2008 at 9:09 pm462 ok Keith….thanks for the heads up
January 6th, 2008 at 9:10 pmGummitch, I see you’re doing everything in your powers to rile me up. But Fred (a.k.a. multitasKING) has already cooled down the phantasymachine for tonight. I’ll be glad to show you how foolish I’ve been and how foolish you still are at another time… be sure to tune in tomorrow, same Phantasy time, same Phantasy channel…
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 9:01 pm
Rile you up? Is that how you view someone offering actual evidence that contradicts your claims? Good timing there with the “gotta run”; next time around you can pretend nothing was ever posted for you to read and absorb.
And to think we accuse trolls of poo and scoot behavior.
January 6th, 2008 at 9:12 pmThen what did you expect Bush to do just 8 mos. in office?
If Bush didn’t “ignore the intelligence†what did you expect him to have done? Take him out to Golden Corral and beg him not to attack us?
Comment by The Clear Conservative — January 6, 2008 @ 8:55 pm
No, idiot. Obviously, something happened between March 1996 and September 2001 and bin Laden organized several direct attacks on the US. AFTER the incident with Sudan.
You don’t even try to think anything through, do you?
January 6th, 2008 at 9:14 pmSo now conjecture and what-ifs are an education? I can play that game if you wanna go there. Clinton had Osama and let him go, coulda prevented 9/11 and possibly the 200 elections going how they did.
Comment by phantasyman — January 6, 2008 @ 8:24 pm
I’m enjoying the idiocy of the right claiming that getting Osama one way or another would have stopped 9/11. 9/11 happened because Al Qaeda saw the USA put into office a jerkwad eminently unqualified to defend the USA. osama had little or nothing to do with it; it was a crime of opportunity. The one sure thing we know is that the theft of the presidency by Rove caused the success of 9/11. Gore would never have been asleep at the wheel the way Bush/Cheney were. and Osma wasn’t a factor in the attacks, was he? he wasn’t anywhere near, not could he have physically managed to feat. Straw men, all around, that’s all the right has, the blame game. Well, take some personal responsibiulity instead of just talking about it. Bush failed to defend the country, case closed.
January 6th, 2008 at 9:24 pmBush/cheney/Rice are the ones to blame for the failure to defend the country. they were the ones on vacation after endless warnings; they were the ones who threw away years of Intel because it was Clinton’s; they were the ones behaving like spoiled brats instead of dojng their jobs. That’s what history says, and will say, forever. You troll cowards will enver live that down. Conservatives suck at national security, and everything else.
January 6th, 2008 at 9:28 pmWho did more to get al Qaeda, Clinton or W? Richard Clarke is the expert. He said Clinton did a lot and W did nothing. Read his book.
January 6th, 2008 at 9:33 pmTo believe Georgy and company you’d have to believe that his entire life has been an endless series of coincidences, one after the next after the next.
Comment by BARTLEBEE
Why BB…..you’ve been actually reading my posts….I’m honered….keep working on the reading for comprehension part, it will come to you, eventually.
January 6th, 2008 at 9:35 pmwith a comment like that….makes me think we shouldn’t give a damn how long you should have stayed a prisoner of war.
btw – pork barrell spending represents a paltry amount of money compared to the billions in your overseas imperialistic mercantilism john.
go put your arms up in ropes for another seven years why don’t you…
January 6th, 2008 at 9:43 pmWell, well. The entire RNC pep squad (second string, weekend edition) shows up, and leaves without a single defense of McCain’s insane statements.
Is it just me, or, have the trolls lost their swagger? It must suck to be them.
January 6th, 2008 at 10:22 pmI would encourage Senator Candidate McCain to continue to spout this drivel, especially in light of this:
NBC News/Wall Street Journal Poll conducted by the polling organizations of Peter Hart (D) and Bill McInturff (R). Dec. 14-17, 2007. N=1,008 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.1 (for all adults).
“In general, do you approve or disapprove of the job that George W. Bush is doing in handling the situation in Iraq?” Half sample, MoE ± 4.4 (Form B)
Approve Disapprove Unsure
33 % 63 % 4 %
January 6th, 2008 at 10:51 pmApprove Disapprove Unsure
33 % 63 % 4 %
Comment by RUCerious — January 6, 2008 @ 10:51 pm
If all that 66% gets off their butts and actually go vote we may overide the gerrymandering and Diabold “rigging” like we did in 2006, we may be able to turn this around after all.
And hold trials for all those involved from the doings, to those who ordered them ( Cheney, Bush, etc ) to the coveruppers
January 6th, 2008 at 11:26 pm**sneeze**Nancy**sneeze**
Excuse me, nasty sneeze.
I am allergic to Government Corruption.
Iowa is a slightly red state—maybe 51%-48% (wild guess), but they just had 239,000 for the Dem caucus and 118,000 for the Repub caucus. And it was more difficult to attend the Dem caucus.
January 6th, 2008 at 11:35 pmYes #342: Sen. McInsane sounds loonier every time he opens his trap.
January 6th, 2008 at 11:36 pmIowa is a slightly red state—maybe 51%-48% (wild guess), but they just had 239,000 for the Dem caucus and 118,000 for the Repub caucus. And it was more difficult to attend the Dem caucus.
Comment by Keith — January 6, 2008 @ 11:35 pm
Yep. I’ve been crowing about it since I saw the first reports. Very encouraging!
If the trend continues? This race could be over, for the Republicans, by Super Tuesday. It’s also a strong sign that Reps are going to be slaughtered in congressional races. 2-1 margins don’t just disappear.
January 6th, 2008 at 11:49 pm“..I don’t think Americans are concerned if we’re there for one hundred years or a thousand years or ten thousand years. â€
So Shaddam IV will still keep troops in Iraq?
RickS, I read Dune this summer for the first time-I swear I nearly choked when I read that comment, hilarious! Sometimes the funny comes out of nowhere. 10,000 years in Iraq? Jesus help me! or should Muad’Dib be more appropriate? I swear sometimes these republicans kill me.
January 7th, 2008 at 7:03 am