ThinkFast: January 31, 2008
ThinkFast: January 31, 2008
A new poll finds that Americans have “a decidedly dour view of how things are going in the country” and “great expectations for the next president’s ability to get things done.” “Fully three-quarters” of the public believe the president has influence over health care costs, and “two-thirds of those under age 35 believe it’s still possible to change the way Washington works.”
Next week, President Bush is expected to call for deep cuts in Medicare and Medicaid in this year’s budget, as lawmakers will have to work to “spare doctors from a 10 percent cut in Medicare fees that would otherwise take effect on July 1.”
Yesterday, Reps. John Conyers (D-MI) and Linda Sanchez (D-CA) demanded that former attorney general John Ashcroft testify “about his appointment to oversee a Justice Department corporate settlement.” Their letter asks Ashcroft to appear at a Feb. 26 hearing, noting that he had ignored previous requests.
Gen. David Petraeus will likely call for an operational “pause” in withdrawals when he testifies before Congress in April. Defense Secretary Robert Gates and top military officers have said “they would like to see continued withdrawals throughout this year, but Bush has indicated he is likely to be guided by Petraeus’s views.”
Rep. Lynn Woolsey (D-CA), who co-chairs the Progressive Caucus, said she will “reintroduce legislation calling for a troop withdrawal from Iraq and urge leadership to move the measure in the wake of the economic stimulus package that has been the center of attention for several weeks.”
A new study in the New England Journal of Medicine finds that one in six soldiers returning from Iraq has suffered concussions, leaving them “at higher risk for” post-traumatic stress disorder.
“Last night’s Republican debate spawned at least one memorable surprise: all four GOP candidates appeared to express support for California in its battle with the U.S. EPA to get a waiver it needs to implement its greenhouse-gas emissions standards for vehicles.”
NATO forces in Afghanistan are in a “strategic stalemate,” according to a new military assessment. “Make no mistake, NATO is not winning in Afghanistan,” said the report by the Atlantic Council of the United States, chaired by former NATO commander Gen. James Jones.
And finally: Rep. Anthony Weiner (D-NY) recently blew Sen. Chuck Schumer’s (D-NY) “chance to win a few dollars — legally — on his beloved New York Giants in the NFC championship game against the legendary Green Bay Packers on Jan. 20.” The day before the game, Schumer asked Weiner — who was in Las Vegas — “to put $50 on the Giants for him at one of the casino’s sports books.” The good news for Schumer was that the Giants won. The bad news? “I forgot to place your bet,” Weiner confessed.
What did we miss? Let us know in the comments section.
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Rep. Anthony Weiner (D-NY) recently blew Sen. Chuck Schumer’s (D-NY) “chance to win a few dollars — legally — on his beloved New York Giants in the NFC championship game against the legendary Green Bay Packers on Jan. 20.â€
And Schumer bet on Mufakesy, who is a born loser, which makes Shcumer a loser, as well.
Thanks, Chuckie. You & Di-Fi’s confirmation of Gonzo II has been another step backward for Democracy.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:04 am“President Bush calls for deep cuts in medicare and medicaid”
Ironic, when calls for the haves and have mores are made to pay their fair share of taxes, they call it ‘class warfare’. But when they go after the most vulnerable in our society they call it ‘the ownership society.’
Why do Repugs hate the poor and sick?
January 31st, 2008 at 9:10 am“Yesterday, Reps. John Conyers (D-MI) and Linda Sanchez (D-CA) demanded that former attorney general John Ashcroft testify “about his appointment to oversee a Justice Department corporate settlement.â€
Since it was in the Washington Post’s Business section as opposed to the front section, Conyers also might like to ask Attorney General Mike Mukasey about the fact that he, too, was in line to get one of the plum overseer appointments.
That is, until he was asked to be Attorney General.
From all I’ve read, landing one of these plums was pure crony territory, so Mukasey must be a pure crony.
Shame on the Post for putting the item in Business, especially since Mukasey was scheduled to testify that day.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:11 amGen. David Petraeus will likely call for an operational “pause†in withdrawals
The surge must go on? Gee, no-one, and I mean NO-ONE, saw that coming.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:12 amThe Giants won the NFC championship?
Well yay then! :)
January 31st, 2008 at 9:13 amWhy do Repugs hate the poor and sick?
Comment by Uncle Ho — January 31, 2008 @ 9:10 am
They have to pay for that corporate welfare and the tax cuts for the richest somehow.
It’s hard work losing 2 wars at the same time.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:14 am“Last night’s Republican debate spawned at least one memorable surprise: all four GOP candidates appeared to express support for California in its battle with the U.S. EPA to get a waiver it needs to implement its greenhouse-gas emissions standards for vehicles.â€
Key word: appeared
Candidates will say anything to get the votes. It’s after they’ve been elected that they forget any promises they’ve made. Pres. Bush has done this twice, and he STILL tells lies about anything!
January 31st, 2008 at 9:14 amNext week, President Bush is expected to call for deep cuts in Medicare and Medicaid in this year’s budget, as lawmakers will have to work to “spare doctors from a 10 percent cut in Medicare fees that would otherwise take effect on July 1.â€
Go ahead and call for this, Mr. President. That’s like gift-wrapping Florida for the Dems.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:15 amWhy do Repugs hate the poor and sick?
Comment by Uncle Ho — January 31, 2008 @ 9:10 am
It’s all part of the Republican “walk it off” plan for health care reform.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:16 amWhy do Repugs hate the poor and sick?
Comment by Uncle Ho — January 31, 2008 @ 9:10 am
It’s cheaper than caring.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:18 amWhy do Repugs hate the poor and sick?
Comment by Uncle Ho —
January 31st, 2008 at 9:22 amBecause they’re self-loathing sociopaths.
Who won the CNN Republican Debate in California?
http://www.youpolls.com/details.asp?pid=1664
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January 31st, 2008 at 9:22 amSupport our troops! Well, at least until they come home.
They deserve much better! I hope the next administration will consider post-war treatment, no matter how insignificant, a priority!
January 31st, 2008 at 9:24 amNext week, President Bush is expected to call for deep cuts in Medicare and Medicaid in this year’s budget.
- – - -
But we still have money for guns and bombs!!
January 31st, 2008 at 9:26 amNext week, President Bush is expected to call for deep cuts in Medicare and Medicaid in this year’s budget, as lawmakers will have to work to “spare doctors from a 10 percent cut in Medicare fees that would otherwise take effect on July 1.â€
This on the heels of a SOTU that discussed making health care more affordable for all Americans. What an unbelievable bastard. Burn in hell, Bush!
January 31st, 2008 at 9:27 amWhat did you miss? Well, just that Hillary Clitnon is trying hard to get the Florida delegates back into the picture. She may have signed a pledge to keep them out, but well that was so last year!
Find more here, here and here.
It would be a catastrophe if another presidency were stolen, this time by a Democrat (Clinton) from a Democrat (Obama). Your country is not considered abroad as a role model for fair elections by a long chalk. Kucinich, Richardson, Ron Paul and others have mostly been cut off from any real participation and Barack Obama would have had the same fate, if the Clinton/Obama race wouldn’t be so attractive for the media. Reminds me to read Al Gore’s “Assault on Reason” again.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:31 am“two-thirds of those under age 35 believe it’s still possible to change the way Washington works.â€
Our children may end up in being our saviors. I fear that there are just enough ignorant and greedy people in this country to elect John McCain as our President. And that just might happen if Hilliary is the candidate.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:32 amLimbaugh, a longtime conservative critic of McCain, said the senator’s rise is largely the result of “uninspiring” candidates, and a “fractured” party base.
Huh! Ya think? Way to “not carry the water” there, OxyContin-breath!
January 31st, 2008 at 9:33 am… and who do you think caused this “fracture”? It wouldn’t happen to be the ones running this country the last seven years, would it Viagra boy???
MoveOn Weighs Dem Endorsements
Democrats with more donations in the midterms than almost any other liberal PAC, is asking its members whether to host a virtual vote on Thursday to endorse Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton for President.
http://www.youpolls.com/details.asp?pid=1666
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January 31st, 2008 at 9:34 amGen. David Petraeus will likely call for an operational “pause†in withdrawals when he testifies before Congress in April.
And that is when he will announce that our soldiers tours of duty have been extended to 24 months from 15 months.
Disgusting. We are killing our soldiers and for what? To occupy a country that doesn’t want us there.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:34 amOh and while I’m at it you missed this one, too.
You really don’t need eight more years of this!
January 31st, 2008 at 9:34 amI just had a thought. I wonder how many of our soldiers would have signed up if they had known that instead of looking for Osama bin Laden, they would be asked to be in the middle of a civil war and end up occupying Iraq. I’m willing that less than a quarter of them would have signed up. Look what’s happening to recruiting in the military today. That’s a pretty good indication.
The truth of the matter is our soldiers were lied to and they are where they are under false pretenses.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:37 amhttp://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/29741/iraq_war_not_worth_fighting_for_americans
January 31st, 2008 at 9:38 amAnd that is when he will announce that our soldiers tours of duty have been extended to 24 months from 15 months.
Comment by bilbobaggins — January 31, 2008 @ 9:34 am
Naw, they will leave deployment for 15 months, and just cut the rotation home out.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:40 am“Last night’s Republican debate spawned at least one memorable surprise: all four GOP candidates appeared to express support for California in its battle with the U.S. EPA…”
——————————————
Um…wasn’t the debate held IN California? Would these shameless vote whores have said the same thing in Michigan?
January 31st, 2008 at 9:40 amRep. Lynn Woolsey (D-CA), who co-chairs the Progressive Caucus, said she will “reintroduce legislation calling for a troop withdrawal from Iraq
I absolutely love that woman. She was my congress person when I lived in California. Did you know that she was once a single mother who lived on welfare and student loans while she went to college to get a good job to be able to support herself and her daughter? Ronnie Ray Gun did away with a women’s ability to collect welfare while going to college, a route many single mothers took to get off welfare and never be on it again.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:40 amI’m not a Republic, but I did watch the ‘debate’ last night.
Out of curiosity, I clocked the amount of time Ron Paul was allowed to speak. Out of a 97 minute debate, Paul got less than 3 minutes.
CNN, or Fox Lite, should never be allowed to stage such a circus again, claiming it’s a debate. Debates have real moderators, strict rules and follow established procedures. Anderson Cooper acted more like a ringmaster than a moderator.
Fox Lite’s intent with these pathetic events is to make news themselves, not direct candidates to real issues and fair repsonses.
Anderson Cooper-180 Degrees ‘Even we don’t know where we stand’
January 31st, 2008 at 9:41 amA new study in the New England Journal of Medicine finds that one in six soldiers returning from Iraq has suffered concussions, leaving them “at higher risk for†post-traumatic stress disorder.
And many of them are undiagnosed and untreated. Why? Because our military has no use for veterans. Once they are no longer useful as cannon fodder, they are kicked to the curb by our military.
You gotta love those Republiscums who “support the troops” when it means leaving them in harms way and making sure they get enough bullets. But when they are no longer useful, they don’t support them at all. Just goes to show you how if yo tell a lie enough times, eventually people start believing it. I heard a saying the other day that went something like, “A lie will go all the way around the world in the time it takes the truth to put it’s shoes on”.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:43 amLast night’s Republican debate spawned at least one memorable surprise: all four GOP candidates appeared to express support for California in its battle with the U.S. EPA to get a waiver
That’s not surprising. They have seen the kind of attention McCain is getting on the climate change issue and see the handwriting on the wall. Every time I have seen McCain at a campaign stop, there is at least one supporter in the background holding a sign about global warming and frequently they are all about global warming.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:45 am“Make no mistake, NATO is not winning in Afghanistan,†said the report by the Atlantic Council of the United States, chaired by former NATO commander Gen. James Jones.
If they had more support from the United States, they would be winning. But we have chosen to put all our capital and resources into occupying Iraq rather than trying to stabilize Afghanistan. Another Bush failure.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:47 amNext week, President Bush is expected to call for deep cuts in Medicare and Medicaid in this year’s budget, as lawmakers will have to work to “spare doctors from a 10 percent cut in Medicare fees that would otherwise take effect on July 1.â€
How about the lawmakers work to spare Medicare and Medicaid recipients the deep cuts? Somehow, I think the docs will manage…
January 31st, 2008 at 9:48 amIt isn’t surprising that so many Americans believe the president has more power than he actually does, because we have seen first-hand the results of the president changing things to benefit himself and his buddies. Because we’ve seen him erode our constitutional rights, destroy habeus corpus, wage war, etc., it’s not too much of a stretch for people to think that the president can use this power to do things that would benefit Americans — such as fix health care and lower the price of gas.
As far as changing the way Washington works, we’ve already seen that happen. Bush and Cheney have consolidated enough power in the executive branch that they thumb their noses at the other branches and get away with it — which is certainly a change from the way things have worked before. So it can be done.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:49 amNext week, President Bush is expected to call for deep cuts in Medicare and Medicaid in this year’s budget, as lawmakers will have to work to “spare doctors from a 10 percent cut in Medicare fees that would otherwise take effect on July 1.â€
Bush has been trying to kill Medicare and Medicaid since he first took office. He has been starving both programs. He wants to prove that government run health care doesn’t work. And he’s right. It doesn’t work when you pay doctors and hospitals half what private insurance pays them. Sooner or later Doctors and hospitals have to stop taking Medicare and Medicaid patients just to survive.
I once asked my doctor if he took Medicare and Medicaid patients and he said that they were once 30% of his practice, then 20% and now they are approaching 10% because he isn’t taking any new patients. He said that he loses money on Medicare and Medicaid patients and that he can no longer afford to have 20-30% of his practice money losing patients. That is so sad.
This is another reason why we need a Democratic president in the White House.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:54 amAs long as the “war profiteers” in this administration are filling their personal coffers, there’s always money for that! When it comes to helping the poor, just call it another “Katrina”! Disgusting!
January 31st, 2008 at 9:56 amMissMolly: The usurpation of executive power began on Day One as part of the PNAC “plan for a new century”, that’s becoming patently clear now. These thugs had it all: They’d taken over the DOJ (one leg of the three-legged stool) and Congress was “theirs” (for 6 years, that is, where nothing ethical took place) so, essentially, Bush was Emperor. It will take another decade to not only undo what they have done to this democracy (if that’s even remotely possible) but to unearth precisely what they’ve done since the DOJ and Congress were aiding and abetting this obstruction of justice. I think the american people need the names of those in that particular Congress and go after them for derelection of duty according to our constitution and their oath of office and NOT permit these sleazebags to slime their way off the hook. We know who they are and they are the true “enemies of the people”. We need to bring all of these treasonous criminals to the justice they deserve if we are ever to bring ethics and morality back to this country. Movement forward will not be possible without revisiting the sins of the past and that means not permitting any of them (congress and DOJ) to enjoy another night’s sleep until justice is served.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:02 amNext week, President Bush is expected to call for deep cuts in Medicare and Medicaid
I always like to rely on the wisdom of 2Pac in these situations… and I quote from verse two of “Keep Ya Head Up”.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:02 am
How about the lawmakers work to spare Medicare and Medicaid recipients the deep cuts? Somehow, I think the docs will manage…
Comment by Zooey
Actually Zooey, that’s not true. The doctors have had their Medicare and Medicaid payments cut 30-40% by Bush. They can’t afford to take any new Medicare and Medicaid patients these days. So, that means that it is practically impossible to find a doctor if you are on either of these programs. I feel extremely fortunate in that my doctor will keep me as a patient when I get to the age of Medicare, but he isn’t taking any new patients because he can’t afford to.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:03 amA good starting point to indict this administration would be to make all of Bush’s signing statements public and to scrutinize each one of them to determine just how deviously this president and administration defrauded the people.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:03 amBilbo: The problem is our medical-legal system. If frivolous lawsuits were curtailed, then the docs wouldn’t be in the hole on January 1 of each year to the tune now of over $100,000 before they can see patients for that year. The problem is the medical malpractice situation when coupled with deep cuts in Medicare in areas dominated by seniors and it’s a prescription for bankruptcy for some docs. In Florida, good doctors have retired early simply because they can’t pay their bills any longer. It’s that bad and by the time we will all need ER’s, there won’t be one around that’s worth anything. In Florida, they can’t find ER docs to staff their ER’s and they’re shutting down. In Texas, ER’s have closed due to the medical treatment of illegals who don’t pay a dime for their healthcare. It’s a real crisis at this point.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:06 amNext week, President Bush is expected to call for deep cuts in Medicare and Medicaid in this year’s budget, as lawmakers will have to work to “spare doctors from a 10 percent cut in Medicare fees that would otherwise take effect on July 1.â€
Does this mean that we will pay less out of our pay checks for Medicare?
January 31st, 2008 at 10:06 amHow about the lawmakers work to spare Medicare and Medicaid recipients the deep cuts? Somehow, I think the docs will manage…
Comment by Zooey — January 31, 2008 @ 9:48 am
This isn’t the right solution. Doctors are under no obligation to take Medicare/Medicaid patients and many already don’t. If you cut what they are getting paid (and they don’t get much from Medicare) they will simply stop taking these patients.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:08 amWe’ve got a medical “crisis” in this country and it’s called “Big Insurance”. This is why it’s totally broken. It has little to do with Medicare cuts per se but, rather, the outrageous malpractice insurance costs these docs must pay yearly in order to remain in practice. And, if we fail to reconcile all of the “non paying ER patients” (illegals) and the free medical care they are each receiving (and now they want the refunds??? WTF is going on??), our hospitals will be closing at an alarming rate. The trend is already occurring due to pure economics – ER’s stacked with non paying patients means hospitals can’t continue to function.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:09 amIn Texas, ER’s have closed due to the medical treatment of illegals who don’t pay a dime for their healthcare. It’s a real crisis at this point.
Comment by Veritas
I am willing to bet that just as many uninsured citizens use the ER’s in Texas as illegals. And that contributes to the problems the hospitals have. Because we have so many Americans (citizens) without any health insurance, they use ER’s as their doctor’s office because that’s the only place where they can get free medical care. But, they have to be pretty darn sick or hurt to get away with it. ER’s don’t take someone who has an earache or a stomach ache.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:10 amdim wit: In Florida, most practitioners don’t have the luxury of NOT taking Medicare – 75% of florida residents are retirees so it’s not a viable option if one wants to practice in the state. This is why there was a mass exodus of good docs from Florida when Medicare payments were cut the last time. If a doc’s income is almost exclusively Medicare which now pays around $5.00 to the doc for reading a mammogram and his malpractice insurance costs are in the $100,000 – $150,000 range in order to care for seniors at all, it’s a no brainer.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:12 amWhat Bush will ultimately achieve is something quite criminal called “health care rationing” where the seniors will be determined to be less valuable as human beings than someone in their twenties and health care will be denied to them. It’s on it’s way.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:12 amYou know veritas, I usually agree with your posts and admire your ability to get to the heart of matters. But I have to say your attitude towards medical care and “illegals” disturbs me. What would you want to happen? Would you want patients to not be able to sue a doctor if the doctor seriously harms them due to incompetence? Would you want ER’s to send away an “illegal” who is seriously hurt or seriously sick? That seems very compassionate and I have always viewed you as a compassionate person.
All these problems are why we need single payer health care. It also shows that we need some way of being able to provide some benefits to undocumented workers who come into this country and do jobs that people in this country won’t do. Many undocumented workers pay taxes on a stolen SSN and they never see a dime of that money returned to them. They can’t file income taxes and they can’t ask for Social Security on a stolen SSN. So, in a way, they are paying for their medical care.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:14 amBilbo: I worked in a medical billing facility years ago and the old “trick” in the ER for the uninsured is the “post office box trick” – bogus post office box given at intake which means bills go no where. This has been going on forever but this, coupled with the influx of illegals with no health care insurance, and it’s O-V-E-R.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:14 amThat seems very compassionate and I have always viewed you as a compassionate person.
That should be “that seems very uncompassionate”
January 31st, 2008 at 10:15 amBilbo: What I would want to happen would be for this government to enforce our laws, that’s what I would want. Don’t you? We shouldn’t have to even be dealing with problems associated with illegals – people who have come to this country “illegally” should we?
January 31st, 2008 at 10:15 amI worked in a medical billing facility years ago and the old “trick†in the ER for the uninsured is the “post office box trick†– bogus post office box given at intake which means bills go no where. This has been going on forever but this, coupled with the influx of illegals with no health care insurance, and it’s O-V-E-R. Comment by Veritas
They don’t need the “old post office box trick”. Most states have laws that say hospitals cannot turn away a seriously ill or injured patient because they lack health insurance or a way to pay for their care. I really don’t want to go back to the days when I read in the paper about a pregnant woman who was turned away from three hospitals and ended up having her baby in an abandoned warehouse. The baby died and so did the woman. Is that what you want to have happen to solve our health care crisis?
January 31st, 2008 at 10:17 amBilbo: I guess I am a purist in that sense. What I do see (and I am associated with the health care profession, BTW, so I have a bird’s eye view) is that we had a health care problem in this country to begin with but with the massive influx of people who are uninsured illegals, it’s totally broken our health care system. It’s a matter of economics and not anything personal or racial.
When I do see someone denied a procedure because they ARE insured and paying premiums through the nose and then see some illegal getting precisely what that insured american who is busting his hump to pay his bills NOT get the care, then I am bullshit, frankly.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:18 amKeep slamming the big door of the Democratic Party on the fingers of the voters in Michigan and Florida and watch McCain’s inauguration come January 2009! I applaud Hillary’s concern for Florida and its voters who turned out despite the DNC’s idiocy. If Obama had scored a landslide victory in Florida some folks would be piping a different tune. Join the Bushocracy if you want to shut out seniors, the poor, and Latinos, inter alia!
January 31st, 2008 at 10:18 amAnd, if we fail to reconcile all of the “non paying ER patients†(illegals) and the free medical care they are each receiving (and now they want the refunds??? WTF is going on??), our hospitals will be closing at an alarming rate.
Comment by Veritas — January 31, 2008 @ 10:09 am
All the more reason why the iron-fist “deport the bastards” policies being adopted at the state and local levels are doing more harm than good. Your hated “illegal human beings” are postponing seeking treatment for minor ailments at local clinics for fear of being identified and deported, and thus they wait until their minor ailment becomes a major, and more expensive, problem that must be treated at the emergency department.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:19 amBilbo: I don’t know where you live but, trust me, people who have no insurance are turned away every day of the week! In fact, in Florida you now can’t even get to square one with a GP unless you provide proof of insurance before your visit for them to certify – that’s how bad it’s gotten.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:19 amWhat I would want to happen would be for this government to enforce our laws, that’s what I would want. Don’t you? We shouldn’t have to even be dealing with problems associated with illegals – people who have come to this country “illegally†should we?
Comment by Veritas
These people would not come here if there was not a job waiting for them. If you want to solve our “illegal” problem, you should be advocating throwing the employers in jail. These people come here because they can’t afford to support their families in Mexico. And they would not come here if there was not a job for them. I think it is a law that needs to be changed to recognize the reality of life in many states that depend on undocumented workers. The State of Florida would be bankrupt in no time flat if every undocumented worker walked off their job and went back to their home country.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:20 amWe shouldn’t have to even be dealing with problems associated with illegals – people who have come to this country “illegally†should we?
Comment by Veritas — January 31, 2008 @ 10:15 am
The United States I believe in treats human beings with compassion and dignity, regardless of whether they’re “illegal human beings” or not.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:21 amI don’t know where you live but, trust me, people who have no insurance are turned away every day of the week! In fact, in Florida you now can’t even get to square one with a GP unless you provide proof of insurance before your visit for them to certify – that’s how bad it’s gotten.
Comment by Veritas
And that is OK with you? Oh, I know. It’s not OK if a resident of the US is turned away but it is OK is an “illegal” is turned away.
Florida must be one of the states that doesn’t have a law banning the practice of turning away the seriously sick and injured from ER’s. I’m glad I don’t live in Florida. I would much rather live in a compassionate state that doesn’t feel like it’s citizens are expendable.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:21 amtoasterhead: Agreed and as most uninsured individuals know, they can go to the ER for a cough or sniffle and get treatment. It’s not just about being deported; it’s about “free medicine”. Someone has to foot the bill though and that’s why this additional 18 million using the facilities have broken it.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:22 amBilbo: An illegal has broken the laws of this country to be here. What don’t you get about that?
January 31st, 2008 at 10:22 amBilbo: Compassion doesn’t pay the hospital’s bills. Delusional economics as I see it.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:23 amI applaud Hillary’s concern for Florida and its voters who turned out despite the DNC’s idiocy. If Obama had scored a landslide victory in Florida some folks would be piping a different tune. Join the Bushocracy if you want to shut out seniors, the poor, and Latinos, inter alia!
Obama didn’t score a landslide victory in Florida because he honored the bargain they made not to campaign in Florida. Hillary did not honor that bargain. And I do believe that if Obama had won big in Florida he wouldn’t be campaigning to have the delegates seated. I believe that Obama has the moral fiber to honor a promise made. Hillary doesn’t.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:24 amToasterhead: Altruism is a wonderful human trait; however, as I mentioned there’s the niggling little fact about paying one’s bills which often must trump idealism. As I see it, the illegal situation and the result it’s having on our health care system which the Dems staunchly defend may give John McCain the entree he needs.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:25 amCompassion doesn’t pay the hospital’s bills. Delusional economics as I see it.
Comment by Veritas
So for you compassion goes out the window when it comes to paying hospital bills. How Republican of you.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:25 am…Clinton and Obama’s divergent views on the troop surge in Iraq, however, were plainly visible.
When Bush (at the State of the Union) proclaimed, “Ladies and gentlemen, some may deny the surge is working, but among terrorists there is no doubt,†Clinton sprang to her feet in applause but Obama remained firmly seated. The president’s line divided most of the Democratic audience, with nearly half standing to applaud and the other half sitting in stony silence.
And there you have it
http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/01/a_surge_of_applause.php
January 31st, 2008 at 10:25 amBilbo: How sad a little man you are when you don’t get your way! Calling me “republican” is a very low blow. Now I know why people bash you so much on these threads. I feel sorry for you.
The fact is that I do have compassion and I do value the rule of law in this country – something which you, evidently, don’t value very much. How hypocritical.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:26 am“You cannot win an occupation. All you can do now is choose the size of your humiliation,”
January 31st, 2008 at 10:26 am- Ehud Olmert talking to Dick Cheney, Nov. 2003
And, for me, the rule of law trumps even compassion, sorry to say, Bilbo.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:27 amSomeone has to foot the bill though and that’s why this additional 18 million using the facilities have broken it.
Comment by Veritas — January 31, 2008 @ 10:22 am
There are far more fiscally-sensible and humanitarian ways to solve this problem. If we stopped treating “illegal human beings” as “illegal human beings” and provided a way for them to achieve legal residency, we could provide them with the ability to organize and demand better conditions from their employers, including health insurance. The system right now only encourages wage slavery.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:27 amAnd, for me, the rule of law trumps even compassion, sorry to say, Bilbo.
Comment by Veritas — January 31, 2008 @ 10:27 am
By this logic, Rosa Parks should have just shut her trap and sat in the back of the bus like a good, law-abiding Negro.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:28 amSo much for “walking the talk” vis-a-vis freedom of speech and divergent opinion. Eating your own is precisely what will bring another Rethug into the white house and if this thread is any indication, I’d say we’re in deep dookey.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:28 amToaster: Rosa Parks was an american citizen – anything more to add?
January 31st, 2008 at 10:29 amTonight Keith Olbermann finally gets his show back on track delivering a Special Comment on the FISA battle.
Thanks to those of you who sent Keith emails asking for him to start covering this story.
We must continue to act to end the media Blackout on the evisceration on the 4th amendment.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:29 amI am not talking about the rights of american citizens under their constitution; I am talking about illegal individuals who have broken our laws and are not american citizens. I have no problemo with “legal immigrants” – should anyone?
January 31st, 2008 at 10:30 amBilbo: The problem is our medical-legal system. If frivolous lawsuits were curtailed, then the docs wouldn’t be in the hole on January 1 of each year to the tune now of over $100,000 before they can see patients for that year.
Comment by Veritas
I also take issue with this statement…..I think the so called frivolous lawsuits are next to non-existant……I think doctors hurt people and you guys can’t have it both ways. If it’s privitized then they can be sued, period.
Doctors get themselves into these situations and now want us to bail them out so they can continue to live high on the hog while the American people cannot afford their services……sorry, docs are a big part of the problem…
that’s why only the nurses are working to change things.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:30 am#72 Amen to that! Go Keith!
January 31st, 2008 at 10:31 amEating your own is precisely what will bring another Rethug into the white house and if this thread is any indication, I’d say we’re in deep dookey.
Comment by Veritas
Oh I get it. We are supposed to keep our mouth’s shut when we see one of our own acting like a Republican and showing a very uncompassionate side? I don’t think that is “eating our own”. I see it as our being honest enough to call out “our own” when they are displaying a very “un progressive” point of view. Would you rather we become like the Republicans and be lock-step brown shirt lemmings? Being a Democrat is rather messy and I like it like that because it is also mostly honest.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:31 amdoctors as a whole allow inept doctors to continue practicing and hurting even more people and the result is more lawsuits……none of them frivilous….that’s just a buzzword.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:32 amFred: Good discussion and it’s all ’screwed up’ from all sides. I don’t believe anyone will want to visit an ER in this country within ten years, that’s clear.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:32 amToaster: Rosa Parks was an american citizen – anything more to add?
Comment by Veritas — January 31, 2008 @ 10:29 am
There are plenty of “illegal human beings” who would like to become American citizens, too, or at least legal residents. Unfortunately, a very racist immigration law and an antiquated immigration bureaucracy prevent them from doing this. Why should we punish people when it’s the law that’s flawed?
January 31st, 2008 at 10:33 amWe all deserve Cheney Care
sponsored by the california nurses association
January 31st, 2008 at 10:35 amBilbo….Bilbo…why the meltdown? Why is it that when everyone agrees with you, everything is copacetic in your world? Your attitude toward fellow Democrats/Independents is precisely what’s wrong with the Democratic party. Intolerance. And isn’t that what you call the Repukes? I’d say it’s all becoming quite hypocritical.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:35 amIn the best interest of not exposing further the hypocrisy of the typical Democratic blogger here (thanks to Bilbo!), perhaps it’s time to move to another topic since this one, quite obviously, doesn’t seem to tolerate any difference of opinion. I do care about the level of hypocrisy prevalent in our party and I realize that in outing this aspect of some of the bloggers here, I may be doing more harm than good so I recuse myself from further discussion. (of course, some of the bloggermouth egomaniacs here probably won’t let this rest because they love to argue more than they care about the fact they are putting on their party.).
January 31st, 2008 at 10:38 amToasterhead: good points and I agree wholeheartedly. This “problem” is multi-faceted in origination and scope. The solution is very complex, indeed.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:40 amI don’t totally agree with you either veritas…..not really taking sides but I have no feeling that the medical industry in this country including doctors are part of the solution….quite the opposite, they are part of the problem.
When were you asked to pay a policeman for invesitgating a robbery on your property? Why should health care be different……why should it matter if the victim is an American Citizen or not? If you are hurt or sick, you need help. What kind of human being withholds that?
January 31st, 2008 at 10:41 amComment by Fred — January 31, 2008 @ 10:32 am
Fred, I’ve done defense work on med malpractice suits. While not all are frivilous, I can assure you many are.
With that said, I believe malpractice lawsuits are part of the problem, but certainly not the only problem with the healthcare industry.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:41 amI have been watching the tennis match between Veritas and bilbobaggins with amusement, but could I just point out a couple of things? Veritas counters bilbo’s point of people not being turned away from ERs by claiming that many people “can’t get to square one with a GP” without insurance. Apples and oranges — GPs aren’t ERs. Of course, people can’t get to a GP without insurance, that’s why so many uninsureds use the ER. And it’s not for every little sneeze and sniffle — many people wait until they are truly sick with conditions that could have been mitigated or prevented by timely care. When they get to the ER in bad shape, they cost our system far more than it would have if the patient had had regular check-ups.
Now, about the point that illegal immigrants have “broken” the system, I’d like to point out that there are about 49 million uninsured Americans in this country. There are about 18 million people here illegally (estimated) and some of them actually have health insurance. Assuming that uninsured Americans and uninsured illegals are pretty much in the same boat as far as health care goes, I find it hard to believe that it’s the illegals who are “breaking” the system single-handedly.
While I think that illegal immigrants contribute to the problem, I believe the lion’s share of the blame rests on the for-profit greedheads who have commandeered the system. When you have insurance companies whose primary objectives are profit and stock market price, you are going to have a system that will do anything to rake in more money than it pays out. This leads to cherry-picking customers, increasing premiums, and denying claims — all of which shut more and more people out of the system.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:43 amToasterhead: good points and I agree wholeheartedly. This “problem†is multi-faceted in origination and scope. The solution is very complex, indeed.
Comment by Veritas
the solutions are so simple it is sickening.
American companies should not be allowed to work human beings for slave wages….period.
Health care that all in American, legal or not can at least afford.
that’s it.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:44 amnothing about this??? i heard about it the other day… too damn bad…
When Old Things Become New Again: Nader Exploring a Possible 2008 Spoiler Candidacy
January 31st, 2008 at 10:48 amBy: billw @ 6:30 AM – PST
So Ralph Nader has launched an exploratory website that ironically asks “Which side are you on?†Right back at you, Ralph.
[...]
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/01/31/when-old-things-become-new-again-nader-exploring-a-possible-2008-spoiler-candidacy/
I normally agree with Veritas’ stance on things, but her very republian stance on this issue is making me think maybe TP did not leave the name jacking days behind. I agree with Bilbo and Toasterhead. There are other, more compassionate ways to deal with the medical insurance problem. Compassion for human beings will always trump money if you are truely a Democrat. There are other solutions.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:48 amWith that said, I believe malpractice lawsuits are part of the problem, but certainly not the only problem with the healthcare industry.
Comment by dim wit
When life or death hinges on money…..there will be a problem.
When doctors charge money for services(capitalism) and then make mistakes they have changed someones life, usually forever. They must pay for that or provide followup care(that don’t happen does it?)
As long as doctors allow a doctor with a lawsuit for hurting somone to continue practice….which they do…..repeatedly….this is easy to prove……then it is the doctors who are causing the problem…….
January 31st, 2008 at 10:48 am“Toaster: Rosa Parks was an american citizen – anything more to add?”
Comment by Veritas —
Is this supposed to be a refutation of some sort? You asserted your commitment to the rule of law – and when someone (like toasterhead) gives you an example of when the rule of law can be wrong, you fall back on “Rosa Parks was an American citizen” – that intellectually weak. Is it the best answer you could formulate?
Weak. And sloppy.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:52 amFred: Just for the record – what profession do you know where 35% of their time spent in doing their job is absolutely NOT paid for?? A plumber? An Electrician? A policeman, perhaps? Just wondering…..might level the playing field a bit to look at the doc stats – in most states, the number is at least 30% of time not paid a red dime for…..before you go knocking the guy who might be the one who actually “saves your life” someday. Be careful what you ask for.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:57 ambarfly: Just trying to interject a bit of what has become perhaps the defining factor in people voting Democratic or Republican in 08. It’s all about illegal immigration and the Repukes definitely have the edge on that. Check your state’s stats for openers if you really want to see where the Indy’s might be headed. And if the Repuke contender is McCain, all bets are off about the dominance of the Dems, sorry to say.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:59 amBarfly: When I referred to Parks being an american citizens, that was the aspect of the rule of law to which I referred. Nowhere did I condone the violation of her civil rights as being within the rule of law. Nice illogical jump though to support your meme.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:00 amIf you guys would spend more time providing credible argument to opposing views and less time attempting to squelch anything which is not lockstep party line here, you would help to elevate the value and reputation of this blogsite.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:02 am“what profession do you know where 35% of their time spent in doing their job is absolutely NOT paid for??”
“in most states, the number is at least 30% of time not paid a red dime for…”
Which is it?
January 31st, 2008 at 11:02 amthe solutions are so simple it is sickening.
American companies should not be allowed to work human beings for slave wages….period.
Health care that all in American, legal or not can at least afford.
that’s it.
Comment by Fred — January 31, 2008 @ 10:44 am
Agreed, though I think those are more simple in theory, than they are in actual policy. They do get very complex when you start looking at tangible solutions.
Taking the first one as an example – we can all agree that American companies should not work people for slave wages. This is true whether the people are in South Carolina or South America. A law mandating that workers be guaranteed a living wage regardless of legal status could drive up prices on consumer goods, send those jobs to countries with less worker-friendly labor laws, or push those workers into the informal sector where they’re put in even worse conditions.
How do we solve that problem? Subsidies or incentives to the companies might help keep those jobs in the United States for a while, but the long-term use of subsidies is also problematic as corporations and consumers become dependant on them.
So really, it’s an issue of trade policy – as long as we continue looking the other way while developing nations ignore worker rights, we will continue to have a supply of workers seeking better conditions in the U.S. and a loss of manufacturing/agricultural jobs from the U.S.
And then if you solve that problem you get back to the issue of rising commodity and consumer good prices and potential runaway inflation. How do you solve that?
I don’t think the solutions are impossible, but I do recognize that they’re extremely complex when you start talking details.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:02 amJust trying to interject a bit of what has become perhaps the defining factor in people voting Democratic or Republican in 08. It’s all about illegal immigration and the Repukes definitely have the edge on that. Check your state’s stats for openers if you really want to see where the Indy’s might be headed. And if the Repuke contender is McCain, all bets are off about the dominance of the Dems, sorry to say.
Comment by Veritas — January 31, 2008 @ 10:59 am
I haven’t seen anything to suggest that immigration is the “defining factor” for voters throughout the US. And McCain is the Republican with “amnesty” stuck to his shoe, so it seems unlikely that he’s getting much traction on the issue (oooh, nice analogy!).
January 31st, 2008 at 11:02 am“Nowhere did I condone the violation of her civil rights as being within the rule of law.”
That makes absolutely no sense, given what you posted.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:03 am“When I referred to Parks being an american citizens, that was the aspect of the rule of law to which I referred.”
So now you’re waffling. You stated your belief in the rule of law – with NO caveats like this above statement. But now, suddenly, you only meant that specific aspect of the rule of law, that dealt with Rosa Park’s travails?
Weak.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:07 am“If you guys would spend more time providing credible argument to opposing views and less time attempting to squelch anything which is not lockstep party line here, you would help to elevate the value and reputation of this blogsite.”
Comment by Veritas
And if you spent more time constructing credible arguments, You wouldn’t be attacked for being sloppy.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:09 amWe can’t afford Medicare, so I guess it’s time for another tax cut!
January 31st, 2008 at 11:09 amVeritas, you are the one acting like a dog who won’t let go of a bone here. Notice pretty much everyone else is thinking differently than you on this issue. So who is the one devaluing the “reputation of this site”. Please….
January 31st, 2008 at 11:09 amWho won the CNN Republican Debate in California?\
Comment by PollM — January 31, 2008 @ 9:22 am
No one, since they’re all a pack of losers.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:10 amI am laughing my ass off here with you guys calling me a Republican just because I don’t happen to share your view on illegal immigration. I am intimately involved in the health care profession and know more about the inner workings of this sytem and hospitals than probably most of you pontificating here today. Having said that, I am in full concurrence that we have a dire problem facing us and illegal immigration simply adds fuel to an already blazing inferno. The lack of affordable insurance in this country is a valid concern but when coupled with an additional 18 M uninsured, it becomes critical.
All I have to say from the backlash of my having an opinion, based on personal association with the healthcare industry which is not in concert with the “democratic line”, is Wow! What hypocrisy. How totally expansive of each of you to criticize and ostracize me from your “elite ranks” because I refuse to be in lockstep mindset with the democratic platform? How small!
I’m beginning to see why so many of the trolls have their way with some of you, sorry to say. And I can readily see that, if this is any indication of how limited the worldview of the Democratic party is at this point, it is perhaps ready for the surprise of it’s life when it shoots itself in the foot.
How congenial, expansive, open and “compassionate” you are in finding the need to call me names simply because I have my own ideas on an issue which happen to not coincide with yours! How compassionate indeed!
Who was it who accused me of being “incompassionate”? Was it you Bilbo? Or was it Toasterhead? Or both??
How sad and small we humans can be in our personal levels of intolerance. And we have the nerve to call Bush a hypocrite or engaged in DoubleSpeak? I think it’s time for a reality check here.
And, BTW, thanks for some glorious insight. This is precisely why Democrats are fleeing the party and joining the fastest growing non-party in the country – The Independents – who will show just how hypocritical BOTH parties have become.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:12 amFred: Just for the record – what profession do you know where 35% of their time spent in doing their job is absolutely NOT paid for?? A plumber? An Electrician? A policeman, perhaps? Just wondering…..might level the playing field a bit to look at the doc stats – in most states, the number is at least 30% of time not paid a red dime for…..before you go knocking the guy who might be the one who actually “saves your life†someday. Be careful what you ask for.
Comment by Veritas
yet they still live much better than 90% of Americans…….all your statement proves is that people are being overcharged when you put it in perspective.
Do you know a doctor that is not a republican…….I have been finding out that there are a few but only a damned few…….that tells me what their priorities are.
before you go knocking the guy who might be the one who actually “saves your lifeâ€
what……If I am paying then I have a right to expect product…quality product. You make it sound more like I am being held hostage…..oh yeah, I am.
Veritas, I too enjoy these kinds of discussions so there is no need for it to get out of hand but please remember where you are…….we have all formulated our own opinions, many based on real life experiences.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:12 amI had a discussion with Veritas about illegal immigrants a while ago.
My guess is that she has a very bad opinion about these people, even to the point of calling them “illegal human beings”, whatever that means. I think personal experiences have formed her that opinion, which is ok, we all have our bias.
Because of this, I’m gonna propose that:
* All illegal workers should return to their countries. Some 12 million Mexicans will flood again their abandoned regions and the South of US will be desertic.
HOWEVER:
* Never the US can dictate economy structures in the countries of the illegal workers.
* Never the US companies will take resources from illegal workers’ land. No more copper from Chile, no more organic compounds from the Amazons, no more oil from Mexico, no more tropical fruits from Guatemala and Honduras.
* No more the IMF or the WorldBank will mess with our governments.
* No more dictatorships sponsored by the WH in order to buy your stuff.
* No more slave work in order to keep the US industry going.
* No more goods from the US shall be privileged and our goods banned
* No more embargoes.
I think it is a fair deal after all the plundering.
Veritas doesn’t want illegal human beings strolling around her streets.
I think it is fine, but she should fight the causes that produce that migration, instead of blaming the poor, maimed, humiliated, hungry people that only wants to work in order to send some money to their families.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:13 amWell spoken, Juan.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:16 amWe can’t afford Medicare, so I guess it’s time for another tax cut!
Comment by piltdown
Veritas, please consider what this poster has said and then put yourself in the place of a lower middle class family member…….
the doctors you defend are living very well, even those who say they can’t afford their malpractice insurance. See we think they are just greedy and that they just wish to be allowed to run their business in a sloppy way and not be held responible for it……follow?
January 31st, 2008 at 11:17 amAs long as doctors allow a doctor with a lawsuit for hurting somone to continue practice….which they do…..repeatedly….this is easy to prove……then it is the doctors who are causing the problem…….
Comment by Fred — January 31, 2008 @ 10:48 am
Fred, while I tend to agree with you on most issues, here you are making overgeneralized misleading statement. Its as if your suggesting doctors are all members of some super secret fraternity where they hatch their evil plan to allow doctors to continue hurting their patients. Thats ludicris.
While medicine is a science, it is not an exact science. Its not as if when you have a heart condition, your cardiologist can just order a new heart from the heart manufacturer and *poof* you’re all better. Medicine requires judgement calls and many times these calls are made with the patient’s informed consent, however, lawsuits continue.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:18 amI think it is fine, but she should fight the causes that produce that migration, instead of blaming the poor, maimed, humiliated, hungry people that only wants to work in order to send some money to their families.
Comment by Juan C. — January 31, 2008 @ 11:13 am
You forgot cheap coffee and flowers, Juan. You’re getting sloppy.
Not to mention cheap American produce, inexpensive housing construction, reasonably affordable restaurants and motels . . . the people who complain the most about illegal immigration rarely factor this in, but instead focus on the small percentage of immigrants who are receiving emergency medical attention.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:18 amVeritas, I think you are looking to blame the people who deal with the policies made by others rather than the people who make the policies.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:19 amWho was it who accused me of being “incompassionate� Was it you Bilbo? Or was it Toasterhead? Or both??
Comment by Veritas — January 31, 2008 @ 11:12 am
I don’t believe I made any personal attacks in this thread. If I did, I apologize. I don’t think progressives or Democrats should be in lockstep on any issue – there is room for disagreement on policy.
However, we should at least be able to agree on some basic principles, and the principle of treating human beings with compassion and dignity, regardless of their country of origin or legal status, should be at the top of that list of principles.
We can all agree that doing nothing is not a solution. But we should also be able to agree that enforcement-only policies are not going to work. The solutions are to be found somewhere in the middle of these two extremes.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:22 ambluedahlia: I’m not blaming anyone. I’m simply stating the difference between “legal immigrant” and “illegal immigrant”. And, for the record, Juan, I never used the term “illegal human beings” – that, I’m afraid, is one of your own constructs.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:23 amToasterhead: How does one reconcile the concept of treating human beings with respect and dignity then when they’ve broken other laws of this country and are incarcerated or given the death penalty?? No apology necessary if we are appreciative of the unique differences of each other.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:25 amAs long as doctors allow a doctor with a lawsuit for hurting somone to continue practice….which they do…..repeatedly….this is easy to prove……then it is the doctors who are causing the problem…….
Comment by Fred — January 31, 2008 @ 10:48 am
Fred, while I tend to agree with you on most issues, here you are making overgeneralized misleading statement. Its as if your suggesting doctors are all members of some super secret fraternity where they hatch their evil plan to allow doctors to continue hurting their patients. Thats ludicris.
Comment by dim wit
No it’s not dw, who decides which doctors get to continue practicing? Other doctors. Do they allow doctors to continue to practice who have hurt people and had findings aginst them in a court of law? Yes, repeatedly….this is easy to prove. There are many reliable places on the web to verify this simple although unbelievable fact.
If doctors were stopped from harming people time after time…..I’m talking about the same doctors in many cases then malpractice insurance would not be an issue…..
I personally believe we should all have the same healthe care as Cheney:
We all deserve Cheney Care
January 31st, 2008 at 11:26 amIf we can’t have socialized medicine then I want dedicated doctors who will work for affordable fees.
An illegal has broken the laws of this country to be here. What don’t you get about that?
Comment by Veritas
What I don’t get about it is why should they have to break the law so that they can support their family doing a job that people in this country are “too good” to do. What don’t you get about that?
Do you have any idea what would happen to the economy of this country if every undocumented worker walked off their jobs tomorrow? Apparently you don’t. As I said before, Florida would be bankrupt within days and states like California and New York. would also be heavily impacted. Pretty much every restaurant in New York would have to close because they would not have anyone to wash their dishes and take out the garbage. And the tourist industry in this country would pretty much fold. How can you run a hotel without someone to clean your rooms?
January 31st, 2008 at 11:26 amYou forgot cheap coffee and flowers, Juan. You’re getting sloppy.
Comment by gummitch
Coffee, right.
US is the leading coffee consumer in the world. All the coffee comes from developing countries (Ethiopia, Columbia, Mexico) where people gets the 1/100 or so, of what Starbucks make.
Flowers? Please, tell more.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:27 amOne last though: When was the last time you illegally broke through the boundary of a foreign country and were given the red carpet, a job, and welfare money? I don’t think so. I rest my case – I believe that I’ve seen the worst in some of you here today. I also believe that your incompassionate posts directed at me (the messenger only) are indicative of a huge problem which exists in the Democratic party today. You’ve just helped define it even better to most of us Independents here today.
And, for the record, if you don’t think that illegal immigrant is NOT the #1 issue facing voters this year because it is intimately tied into the economy just like the Iraq War, then I’d have to say that you are not well-informed either.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:28 amWho was it who accused me of being “incompassionate� Was it you Bilbo? Or was it Toasterhead? Or both??
Comment by Veritas
It was me. I said that your attitude towards undocumented workers was uncompassionate and that is true. Do you think that your attitude towards undocumented workers is compassionate? If not, that makes it uncompassionate. It the truth hurts…
January 31st, 2008 at 11:29 amAnd, as everyone is beginning to see, the Independents/Undecided Voters WILL be the group which elects our next president. Sorry to have to say that these threads have become the height of hypocrisy. Adios, amigos!
January 31st, 2008 at 11:30 am…fight the causes that produce that migration, instead of blaming the poor, maimed, humiliated, hungry people that only wants to work in order to send some money to their families.
Comment by Juan C. @ 11:13 am
hear hear, juan!
January 31st, 2008 at 11:30 amOkay, bilbo – then we’re even here, aren’t we? You support the laws in this country which state that one who breaks the law is placed on trial and given a sentence (compassionate?) yet you absolve a group of people who are doing just that and when I call for the laws to be respected, you call me incompassionate. What a double standard you possess and proclaim.
There’s nothing compassionate with being a lawbreaker and suffering the consequences, is there? It has nothing to do with compassion at all.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:32 amJuan, I never used the term “illegal human beings†– that, I’m afraid, is one of your own constructs.
Comment by Veritas
I jumped right after toasterhead’s post.
If you never did, I apologize.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:33 amToasterhead: How does one reconcile the concept of treating human beings with respect and dignity then when they’ve broken other laws of this country and are incarcerated or given the death penalty?? No apology necessary if we are appreciative of the unique differences of each other.
Comment by Veritas
So, by this logic, is it ok for us to torture them since we don’t have to treat them with respect and dignaty…….where is the line…..who are we?
January 31st, 2008 at 11:33 amThats ludicris.
Comment by dim wit
geez, where did I learn to spell?
Thats ludicrous
January 31st, 2008 at 11:33 amLet’s not conflate an emotion such as compassion with the rule of law for openers. Besides, are you calling your posts the “epitome of compassion” when you find it necessary to bash even your friends for having an opinion different from your own. I call that intolerant egotism myself.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:33 amOne last though: When was the last time you illegally broke through the boundary of a foreign country and were given the red carpet, a job, and welfare money? I don’t think so. I rest my case – I believe that I’ve seen the worst in some of you here today. I also believe that your incompassionate posts directed at me (the messenger only) are indicative of a huge problem which exists in the Democratic party today. You’ve just helped define it even better to most of us Independents here today.
For the most part, we in this country, don’t have to “illegally break through the boundary of a foreign country” to support our families. But, I guarantee you that if the very poor in this country knew they could cross the border (illegally) into Canada and get a job making enough money for them to be able to support their family back in the United States, they would be doing it.
You say that our posts directed towards your uncompassionate view towards undocumented workers is “incompassionate” towards you. What a hoot. If the truth hurts, then perhaps you should do something about it. All I have seen here is people who have questioned your attitudes towards undocumented immigrants. If it had been a troll here saying the things you have said and we responded to the troll the same way we responded to you, would you consider that “incompassionate”?
January 31st, 2008 at 11:34 amFred: You’re extrapolating again. My side of the discussion has nothing to do with torturing people. All I am saying is that our system is broken and this influx of illegal immigrants has brought it to disaster. Please don’t attempt to put words in my mouth which I did not say. Wow! Who said that the typical democrat was honest, forthright, fair, and open-minded?? Whomever it was was really onto something.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:35 amIf we can’t have socialized medicine then I want dedicated doctors who will work for affordable fees.
Comment by Fred — January 31, 2008 @ 11:26 am
and I want to bang Jennifer Aniston.
I guess we’re both not going to get what we want.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:36 ambilbo: Since when is Mexico’s economic problems our responsibility? If so, then we should be bringing the people of Kenya here pronto….all of them. Imperialism…tsk…tsk….
January 31st, 2008 at 11:36 amLet’s not conflate an emotion such as compassion with the rule of law for openers. Besides, are you calling your posts the “epitome of compassion†when you find it necessary to bash even your friends for having an opinion different from your own. I call that intolerant egotism myself.
Comment by Veritas
So veritas. Let’s say that we make sure that no one breaks our laws regarding entering our country and we can somehow remove every undocumented worker from our country. What do you think would happen?
And the people here are not equating compassion with breaking the law. They are equating compassion with how we treat the people who are in this country, whether it is illegally or legally.
How about this. You are on a vacation in Italy or Greece. You get in a very bad automobile accident. You find that your insurance won’t pay for treatment in a foreign country. Wouldn’t you expect the country you are in to treat you anyway and now allow you to die because you don’t have insurance or a way to pay for your treatment. In most of Europe, if this were to happen to you, your medical costs would be paid for by the host country, because they have “socialized medicine”.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:38 ammy one comment on the “discussion” to veritas:
“red carpet”??? … oy…
that’s all…
…
oh, and dim wit, doctors, as well as cops, politicians and others
January 31st, 2008 at 11:38 amDO belong to a special CYA club… no doubt about that…
…
Since when is Mexico’s economic problems our responsibility? If so, then we should be bringing the people of Kenya here pronto….all of them. Imperialism…tsk…tsk….
Comment by Veritas
Mexico’s economic problems are not our responsibility. But, again, a point you don’t seem to be able to address is the fact that THEY WOULD NOT COME HERE IF THERE WERE NOT JOBS FOR THEM. What don’t you get about that?
January 31st, 2008 at 11:39 amWow, if I read Veritas right, she is the only well informed, logical poster on this site. All of us with differing opinions are the ignorant masses. Wow. I happen to work in the health care industry too. I used to work with surgeons in the OR. You are not the only one who knows how the medical system works. I guess if the majority of the posters disagree with you, well that can only mean one thing. You are right!
January 31st, 2008 at 11:39 amI was annoyed last night by the heated debate between Romeny and McCain over who called and who didn’t call for a ’scheduled withdrawal from Iraq ‘.
It shows the level of despair,and the attempt to score some points between the two candidates.
I was angry at the length of time that CNN allowed such stupid issue to go on and on.
McCain sounded like ‘calling for a scheduled withdrawl from Iraq’ like committing a crime and the criminal last night was Romeny
Romney tried hard to defend himself..but this is not issue at all.
Scheduled withdrawals is not an issue. Iraqis will know,and we need them to facilitate withdawal.Nobody can withdraw a huge army unnoticed…the issue is silly to even argue over.
What is an issue is war mongering itself.
CNN never asked McCain how many wars he is planning to put this country in, how many thousands of lives he is willing to sacrifice.and how many tens of billions of dollars he is going to drain from the Treasury.
McCain never had any administrative experience. His military experience was mainly serving as a young navy pilot.
Nobody wants to take anything from his service…but he wants the keys to the White House, he wants to declare more wars…which will affect every American life,and worldwide standing of USA,and also will impact our economy,so is the world economy,which McCain thinks it takes care of itself.
I am not a fan of Romeny, but the debate turned to focus on something really not that important.
The war itself is the issue, with McCain calling for more blood and money he must be asked why….his answer always we need to have a victory…
CNN should have asked him what Victory is and what is he trying to achieve.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:39 amwhen you find it necessary to bash even your friends for having an opinion different from your own.
Comment by Veritas
I don’t think anyone is bashing you. We are questioning your POV.
I think you hold some valid points, nobody here is asking for illegal actions, but the main point is why humans are illegal but goods can cross the borders without being labeled that way?
All I am saying is that our system is broken and this influx of illegal immigrants has brought it to disaster.
Comment by Veritas
I think this is a ignorant statement.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:40 amThere’s nothing compassionate with being a lawbreaker and suffering the consequences, is there? It has nothing to do with compassion at all.
Comment by Veritas — January 31, 2008 @ 11:32 am
When the law is racist, it has everything to do with compassion.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:41 amFred: You’re extrapolating again. My side of the discussion has nothing to do with torturing people. All I am saying is that our system is broken and this influx of illegal immigrants has brought it to disaster. Please don’t attempt to put words in my mouth which I did not say. Wow! Who said that the typical democrat was honest, forthright, fair, and open-minded?? Whomever it was was really onto something.
Comment by Veritas
Fred’s comment was spot on. What he was saying is that it is a slippery slope when we start defining how we treat people based on their legal status in our country. You’re not legal, then you should not get medical treatment if needed and you can just die for all we care. You don’t see anything wrong with that kind of an attitude?
January 31st, 2008 at 11:42 amSince when is Mexico’s economic problems our responsibility?
Comment by Veritas
If you have to make this question, you are unaware of what IMF, WorldBank, Interamerican Development Bank, School of Americas, NAFTA and other hundreds of treatises are dedicated to.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:43 amSince when is Mexico’s economic problems our responsibility? If so, then we should be bringing the people of Kenya here pronto….all of them. Imperialism…tsk…tsk….
Comment by Veritas — January 31, 2008 @ 11:36 am
Since we signed NAFTA and began dumping six million tons of corn on them a year, thus increasing rural poverty and, by extension, migration.
Trade policy, immigration policy, economic policy, foreign policy – they’re all related.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:43 amI jumped right after toasterhead’s post.
If you never did, I apologize.
Comment by Juan C. — January 31, 2008 @ 11:33 am
I admit, it’s my term and it’s intended to sound ridiculous. I find the terms “illegals” and “undocumented workers” and the like very dehumanizing, and I wanted to inject the humanity back into the debate.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:46 amveritas, you said:
How does one reconcile the concept of treating human beings with respect and dignity then when they’ve broken other laws of this country and are incarcerated or given the death penalty??
I said:
So, by this logic, is it ok for us to torture them since we don’t have to treat them with respect and dignaty…….where is the line…..who are we?
you said:
Fred: You’re extrapolating again. My side of the discussion has nothing to do with torturing people. All I am saying is that our system is broken and this influx of illegal immigrants has brought it to disaster. Please don’t attempt to put words in my mouth which I did not say. Wow! Who said that the typical democrat was honest, forthright, fair, and open-minded?? Whomever it was was really onto something.
Yes, I extrapolated from your statement that we are not required to treat criminal immigrants with respect and dignity, especially if they have broken our laws. So following that logic where have I been incorrect in my extrapolation? If we are going to allow them to die on our streets for these reasons then why is it such a long jump to torture? Especially in todays enviornment………which I will add was complicated by confused independents who voted for Nader in 2000….possible making them responsible in part for the last 7 years of misery for our country.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:47 amWhat I don’t get about it is why should they have to break the law so that they can support their family doing a job that people in this country are “too good†to do. What don’t you get about that?
Take it back another step, and what I don’t get is, maybe, if the economy is so sh*tty in Mexico, they should not have families with which to trouble themselves with “supporting” in the first place. Maybe, if NAFTA hadn’t passed, Mexico’s economy and wages would have improved, instead of continued deterioration.
And if you really think “socialized” medicine is the answer, you’re crazy. I worked hard as hell to get the job with great insurance, and you’ll have to KILL ME to force me into losing that in “favor” of a socialized program. SCREW YOU. Your “holier than thou” compassion might put you into a fight you wont win, because the only answer to your “compassion” towards law-breakers is to change the law? At my expense???
Again, FCUK OFF. You hard leaning lefties are just as bad for our Gov as the wingnuts. Birds of a different feather ONLY, but still paranoid hawks who will continue to put party over Country at your own peril. And again, the Dems will choose the wrong candidate (Billary) and we’ll end up with McFlip-flop. THANKS.
(methinks too many stay at home women with the tired old “chip on the shoulder” doth post here to much.)
January 31st, 2008 at 11:47 amtoaster: This has nothing to do with legal immigrants of ALL races. It has to do with “illegal” which means violating the laws of this country – period. This is not an issue of racism or bigotry because it is all encompassing – anyone who is here “illegally”. Therein ends the discussion of the confusion between the two POV’s.
Besides, the more we highlight what will be perhaps the most divisive issue in the coming election and give John McCain a better crack at the presidency by these comments, the more good it will do for the more collective common views traditionally held by the party. This kind of discussion recuits more Democrats to the Independent side of the ledger I’m afraid.
Since open-mindedness, fairness, and tolerance is our mantra perhaps we should try manifesting it right here? Just a silly thought….
January 31st, 2008 at 11:50 amoh, and dim wit, doctors, as well as cops, politicians and others
DO belong to a special CYA club… no doubt about that…
…
Comment by katy — January 31, 2008 @ 11:38 am
and they’re all out to get you….
January 31st, 2008 at 11:52 amLet’s simply “agree to disagree” on this issue and not send more Democrats to the Indy side and the potential of making McCain the president. My only hope is that he who loves the sound of his own voice here on these threads ad nauseum gets the memo, too! (name begins with a B!).
January 31st, 2008 at 11:53 amAt my expense???
Comment by DieNowForPeace
Was that sarcasm?
The whole post doesn’t make much sense.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:53 amoh, and dim wit, doctors, as well as cops, politicians and others
DO belong to a special CYA club… no doubt about that…
…
Comment by katy — January 31, 2008 @ 11:38 am
Dim wit, if you disagree with this statement, you have got to be kidding me.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:54 amLet’s send all of our solutions to Congress, specifically the dems who promised to listen to us about many things, and let them continue to trivialize it or do something about. After all: all of the pontificating in the world means zippo to these bureaucrats in the long run.
Let’s talk about our hackable and easily hacked voting machines if we really want to get our panties in a wad.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:54 amI find the terms “illegals†and “undocumented workers†and the like very dehumanizing, and I wanted to inject the humanity back into the debate.
Comment by toasterhead
I find the term disgusting and is openly racist.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:55 amMy only hope is that she who loves the sound of his own voice here on these threads ad nauseum gets the memo, too! (name begins with a V!).
There, fixed it for you!
January 31st, 2008 at 11:55 amNo profession is exempt from corruption and there’s always a percentage of those in every walk of life – it’s reality.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:55 amDim wit, if you disagree with this statement, you have got to be kidding me.
Comment by Bluedahlia — January 31, 2008 @ 11:54 am
EVERY job is CYA. And if you really want to talk about CYA organizations, please by all means, lets not forget to include labor unions.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:57 amBluedahlia: You obviously have not seen the noctural rantings to which I refer. As for your level of anger and personal hatred, shame, shame. And what do you call yourself: A democrat perhaps? Showing one’s ass again isn’t a very pretty picture.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:57 amveritas – why is it that you have ignored questions about what would happen if all the undocumented workers were to disappear from our country tomorrow? Why is it that you have ignored questions about why they come here in the first place (because there are jobs waiting for them). You want to blame the undocumented workers for all the problems they cause. Can’t you see that there is shared blame? We are to blame for allowing employers to hire them with no repercussions. We are to blame because many of our trade policies are exacerbating the financial problems in Mexico.
You say that we are attacking you. I say that you are avoiding the questions we are asking you because the truth hurts and you have no answers or the answers will make you look even worse than you do right now.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:57 amFlowers? Please, tell more.
Comment by Juan C. — January 31, 2008 @ 11:27 am
Huge plantations that produce cut flowers for the US market. Here is a start. Like all monoculture plantations in Latin America (bananas, coffee) it uses land that is then unavailable for food crops for the locals. You can grow a heck of a lot of beans and squash and feed a family, or you can grow pretty flowers that Americans will throw away in a few days and pay those locals slave wages.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:58 amtalk on blueduh, talk on. It gives anyone visiting this blog some clear insight into the hypocrisy.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:58 amBilbo: I am simply brining personal insight directly from the medical paradigm, that’s all.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:59 amGum, you rock. Domoarigatogosaimashita.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:00 pmBesides, my insight being myopic and restricted to the medical paradigm, I can’t even fathom the myriad of problems this is causing to other sectors of our country. I can’t even wrap my mind around the concept of how devastating this will be.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:00 pmB: What questions specifically have I dodged? I fear that you’re falling into your typical “troll bashing mode”, my friend.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:01 pmLet’s simply “agree to disagree†on this issue and not send more Democrats to the Indy side and the potential of making McCain the president. My only hope is that he who loves the sound of his own voice here on these threads ad nauseum gets the memo, too! (name begins with a B!).
Comment by Veritas
I have found nothing mean or discordant in this discussion this morning. I have found that a lot of points on both sides have been made, passionatly. No one will be driven away by these kinds of discussions. It is the “You are with us or you are against us” crowd who have alienated everyone.
There is nothing negative in this thread…..well until that one wierdo came in in post #143
January 31st, 2008 at 12:01 pmMy only hope is that he who loves the sound of his own voice here on these threads ad nauseum gets the memo, too! (name begins with a B!).
Comment by Veritas
My, my, veritas seems to think that the sound of his/her voice is fine but other people should be censored because they don’t post things that agree with his/her point of view. Perhaps you should start calling me a troll since I disagree with your point of view on our immigration problem.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:01 pmAgree to disagee – Now that’s the democratic way.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:01 pmbilbo: Let it go or are you incapable of doing that?
January 31st, 2008 at 12:02 pmVeritas – perhaps this point has already been made, so forgive me.
MissMolly touched on it, but didn’t quite say it – there have been studies done that indicate that it is NOT illegal immigrants who are “breaking” our health care system.
On the contrary, it is the vast numbers of uninsured American citizens who have the largest role in overwhelming our ER’s.
It is my firm belief that as long as “profit” is an integral part of our healthcare delivery system, we are all going to suffer. “For-profit healthcare” creates a deadly conflict of interest, which, predictably, has resulted in suffering – and death – for vast numbers of Americans.
And as for illegal immigrants, if there was no one who was willing to hire them – they wouldn’t come here. Enforce our existing law and crack down on employers who hire illegals; bust big businesses like Wal-Mart and agribusinesses– who love illegals because they’ll work cheap – and if they make waves, they can be conveniently deported.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:03 pmI prefer to call myself human. As far as personal hatred and and anger, I am not the one wanting humans to die on the street from lack of medical care just because they came from another country to make a living American corporations put there for them. But money trumps all, right?
January 31st, 2008 at 12:03 pmI don’t have it in me to hate someone I don’t know posting anonymously on a progressive blog site. I just like pointing out that your standards seem to apply to everyone but yourself.
I don’t have to do much really, you speak for yourself. (again and again)
Thanks, Fred. Well stated. And, yes, this needs healthy debate and from all sides of this complicated issue.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:04 pmB: What questions specifically have I dodged? I fear that you’re falling into your typical “troll bashing modeâ€, my friend.
Comment by Veritas
1) what would happen to this country if all the “illegals” were gone tomorrow.
2) how they wouldn’t come here if there was not a job waiting for them.
3) how you would be content to see them die for lack of medical treatment just because they are “illegal”.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:05 pmOh please Blueduh – let it go before you soil yourself further. Onward and upward and let’s not give the Rethugs more fuel here by attacking each other. We are all on the same page, for goodness sakes but on each issue, we have our own perspective based on our own experiences and lifestyles. Respect that and we can remain united. Divided, we all fall.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:05 pmThe lack of diversity of opinion is precisely why this democracy is being destroyed from the inside out. Let’s not add to the metaphor here any further. Later.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:06 pmEVERY job is CYA. And if you really want to talk about CYA organizations, please by all means, lets not forget to include labor unions.
Comment by dim wit
dw has exposed his dark underbelly……….
January 31st, 2008 at 12:07 pmbecause the only answer to your “compassion†towards law-breakers is to change the law? At my expense???
You want to give away healthcare? I pay for mine, in aint cheap, but it’s better than a “socialized” program could ever be. I’ve had Kaiser Permanente, I’ve seen the belly of the beast, and I will fight to the death to keep what I’ve worked for and earned.
I want free booze and weed.
Now, let’s shit in one hand and wish in the other and see which one fills up first…
January 31st, 2008 at 12:07 pmWow, name calling now. How very logical of you. How can you in one breath call me names and tell me I am “soiling” myself and then say we are on the same page and should work together?
January 31st, 2008 at 12:07 pmBilbo: Take a break, friend. You spend way too much time on these blogs and it’s showing. Give yourself a respite before you go rabid.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:07 pmOh please Blueduh – let it go before you soil yourself further. Onward and upward and let’s not give the Rethugs more fuel here by attacking each other. We are all on the same page, for goodness sakes but on each issue, we have our own perspective based on our own experiences and lifestyles. Respect that and we can remain united. Divided, we all fall.
Comment by Veritas
I don’t think this is fair. All have listened to what you have said………they have what they consider important views that they wish for you to understand……..if not agree with….at least understand. Your viewpoint is not the center of the universe……..same to dw
January 31st, 2008 at 12:09 pmdon’t worry about what the repubs are doing or not with our thread….they will lie and distort anyway…….lets keep talking and solve our problems……we will be in power soon.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:11 pmwe will be in power soon.
And thus continues the “status quo”.
Who the hell wants 16 plus years of the Bush/Clinton oligarchy?
January 31st, 2008 at 12:13 pmI find the term disgusting and is openly racist.
Comment by Juan C. — January 31, 2008 @ 11:55 am
That it is. It’s totally offensive. It’s meant to be offensive.
It also captures the essence of this debate perfectly. The illegal immigrant today is no more than the latest target of the time-honored American traditions of racism, bigotry, and xenophobia.
toaster: This has nothing to do with legal immigrants of ALL races. It has to do with “illegal†which means violating the laws of this country – period. This is not an issue of racism or bigotry because it is all encompassing – anyone who is here “illegallyâ€. Therein ends the discussion of the confusion between the two POV’s.
Comment by Veritas — January 31, 2008 @ 11:50 am
Wrong. This has everything to do with race. The 1965 Immigration Law that created our current system was designed with one goal in mind: to ensure that we allow in the “right” kind of immigrants (Western Europeans) and not the “wrong” kind of immigrants (everybody else). Hence the emphasis on family reunification and people in high-skill professions such as engineering and medicine.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:14 pmwe will be in power soon.
And thus continues the “status quoâ€.
Who the hell wants 16 plus years of the Bush/Clinton oligarchy?
Comment by DieNowForPeace
need some help with that death wish?
January 31st, 2008 at 12:15 pmI am willing to bet that just as many uninsured citizens use the ER’s in Texas as illegals. And that contributes to the problems the hospitals have. Because we have so many Americans (citizens) without any health insurance, they use ER’s as their doctor’s office because that’s the only place where they can get free medical care. But, they have to be pretty darn sick or hurt to get away with it. ER’s don’t take someone who has an earache or a stomach ache.
Comment by bilbobaggins — January 31, 2008 @ 10:10 am
I’m not sure if it varies from state to state or even from one hospital to another, but at least one major system in Texas does treat uninsured patients, legal or not, no matter how minor the ailment. My favorite is the mom who brought in her 5 mnth old daughter because she cried every time the mom put her down. Yep, the baby just wanted to be held. The baby still had to have tests run and be seen by a doctor. Levity aside, I have a friend who is an EMT in a local hospital that has begun making things difficult on the long time employees so that they will leave and can be replaced with new, lower paid employees. There are a large number of illegal aliens in the area and they have definitely put pressure on the system. They also make a significant contribution to the local economy. I can’t imagine that anyone really wants people to be denied care when they are sick. It’s one thing to advocate that in a discussion. It’s another to actually see it happen. Maybe we need to start a temporary medical fund to collect large fines from companies caught employing illegal aliens to help out the hospitals until our esteemed leaders see fit to deal with the issue appropriately. ;)
January 31st, 2008 at 12:15 pmI am really am going to leave. Nice talking and listening with the progressives here, as usual.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:15 pmBilbo: Take a break, friend. You spend way too much time on these blogs and it’s showing. Give yourself a respite before you go rabid.
Comment by Veritas
Insulting the people on this thread is not going to help you any (soil yourself, rabid, etc). You have shown a side to your personality that isn’t very pretty and many people here are reacting to it.
I don’t see you telling people to “give it a rest” when they are going after a troll. Why should you be treated any different than a troll, who says something that we disagree with? You seem to want us to start acting like Republicans (hear no evil, speak no evil…) when it comes to disagreements amongst ourselves. I hope that doesn’t happen. I would rather that we remain honest and true to our core beliefs and if a regular on this blog posts something we disagree with, then we should feel free to say so. Anyone here should feel free to disagree with something I say. I would welcome the opportunity to stand up for my core beliefs.
If you can’t stand the heat, perhaps you should get out of the kitchen.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:16 pmDid anyone catch the Repub debate last night at the Reagan library? I did, just to see what was up. Boy, what a waste of time.
Anyway, I wanted to point out one thing that McCain brought up about Romney “raising taxes” as governor. Romney said no, he didn’t raise taxes. Instead, to take care of a budget shortfall, they raised fees on things like signs along the interstate that companies such as McDonalds or a Burger King would erect. Fees went from, say $200 to $2000.
Of course, I’m sure the companies would never pass along these expenses to customers.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:20 pmI think most Americans look forward to “anything but Bush”. I think, no matter who gets the presidency, it is going to be a long and drawn out affair to get this country back on track and to gain the hearts and trust of Americans. For those wanting ‘quick” fixes it isn’t going to happen and they will then toss out the 08 president in 2012.
It took George Bush 8 years to completely destroy this country and our constitution. I hope the American people have enough patience to allow the next president the same amount of time.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:23 pmWhoops! Edit
“same amount of time to fix all that is broken”
January 31st, 2008 at 12:24 pmOn the contrary, it is the vast numbers of uninsured American citizens who have the largest role in overwhelming our ER’s.
Comment by Leftside Annie — January 31, 2008 @ 12:03 pm
Not only that, it’s the ones who do have health insurance (say, state-provided programs such as Tennessee’s TennCare) who go to the ER for a toothache or because their back is hurting, simply because they do not want to take the time to call the dentist or their physician and make an appointment.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:25 pmThe 1965 Immigration Law that created our current system was designed with one goal in mind: to curb the excessive flow of illegal immigrants from Mexico, the country with the single most illegal influx.
You should visit Africa, then see if you still like the idea of entire societies of refugees living in squalor, after they’ve flooded a neighboring region unable to care for them.
Our nation can NOT continue to allow so many poor, uneducated, unskilled workers entry without major economic impact.
Do you seriously think the GOP isn’t using the immigration debacle as the key issue to not moving forward with “socialized” medicine? Please, try to see the forest through all the trees.
And the conspiracy nutjubs think those so-called secret prisons will be used for political dissidents???
HILARIOUS. The USA would be so screwed if Mexico just decided to invade, not as an army, just millions, of millions of people, with no secure border, our Military stretched halfway around the world…
January 31st, 2008 at 12:26 pmFeel the compassion?
The problem with the medical discussion that continues at post 181 is that not only are people being left with health problems that could be easily addressed……..people are dying in America.
People are choosing death over losing everything they and their families own…….you who defend the medical establisment…..please wake up.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:26 pmComment by DieNowForPeace
need some help with that death wish?
Comment by Fred
That’s not a wish, it’s an imperative, as in “eat shit”.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:27 pmComment by aquarius2 — January 31, 2008 @ 12:23 pm
I’m hearing more and more about record turnouts not only at the primaries and caucuses, but also for early voting. Could be somewhat of a repeat of 1992 when the people wanted to get rid of another Bush.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:27 pmWell we need health care that we can take from job to job. The Illegals should come in legally and there would not be a problem. They need to take their turn to become American citizens like the people who comes in legal.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:27 pmFred: I’ve never said that I fail to “understand” the issues and the problems; conversely, I also realize and recognize the validity of what others here have to say and have never debated any of it except their intolerance which I feel is hypocritical in bashing me simply because I refuse to be in lockstep agreement with their concepts. Obviously, we all cannot fully comprehend every aspect of this problem but relate to it from our individual perspectives and life experience. That’s the definition of “tolerance”. I fully comprehend the depth and emotion of the opposing posts here but cannot and will not fail to express my opinion when it is not in concert with the democratic platform. This is precisely what the Reichnuts have to done to the citizens of this country – excluded us all from the discussion when it doesn’t conform to the policies they wish to enforce.
My opinions remain my own and I easily agree to disagree. As you can easily see, I am more chagrinned by the bashing I received, as a Democrat/Independent, for my opinion here than for anything to do with the issue itself. This is where the “rubber meets the road” – the “put one’s money where one’s mouth is” has significance. Sure anyone can claim to be a compassionate democrat but the proof is in the pudding when one of their own has an opinion that is not in lockstep synchrony with the meme of the party. This IS the definition of democracy. The sheer act of “WALKING THE TALK” which others use in determining the integrity of another individual. We’ve had 7 years of hypocrits running the show. Please let’s not be classified among them by our own level of intolerance for the views of others – especially one of our “own” whose view(s) you may not concur with.
There is far too much of this type of behavior on these threads. The troll bashing has led to an insidiously divisive level of hatred and anger among the posters here which is now being extended further to their own whose positions may differ from theirs.
I never stated that my thoughts were more relevant than the others POV’s; in fact, I stated repeatedly that this issue is an intensely complex one with ramifications we have yet to discover over time and whose remedies may be as elusive as the butterfly gracing your windowsill today.
The rule of law is precisely why this country has run amok from the top down. The singular aspect of this discussion, for me, has been the rule of law and upholding our laws – nothing more. My experience provides an insight into the bowels of the hospital paradigm and how people who fail to pay for healthcare are closing hospitals as a matter of economics – not Bush economics – but the real economics of not being able to pay their costs or employees. The layoffs in hospitals has reached unprecedented numbers and it has been shown to be directly proportionate to the non payment for services – the uninsured and illegals both contribute here. This is the ONLY side of this issue upon which I’ve commented…….the rest was simply food for thought about how we either choose to either “talk the walk” or “walk the talk”. I see I’ve stirred the base though which does not bode well for the party in general if this becomes what we all suspect it will: one of the deciding factors in this race.
No one has the answers but respecting the rule of law in this country is a damn good start.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:28 pm…and fcuk Billary.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:28 pmdw has exposed his dark underbelly……….
Comment by Fred — January 31, 2008 @ 12:07 pm
Fred, I live here in Chicago. My belly hasn’t seen sunlight in months. I can assure you it is as white as it gets.
- – - – -
Your viewpoint is not the center of the universe……..same to dw
Comment by Fred — January 31, 2008 @ 12:09 pm
When did I ever suggest my viewpoint is the only viewpoint? Considering you are the one who attempts to categorize me as having a “dark underbellY” I do believe you are the one who is suggesting to have the only correct viewpoint.
I have never made an a negative comment regarding you. I disagreed with you comment because I have actually seen and laid hands on what you say doesn’t exist – that is the frivilous medical malpractice law suit.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:30 pmFred: And people I see here are having to make the choice daily between food and medications to keep them alive. I’ve been doing some research on the growing numbers of homeless where I live and I’m astounded to find so many people living in the woods. And, on to Karina and it’s victims: what are we doing for these poor souls whose generations go back a hundred years? Bush has screwed them all.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:32 pm188 I have never seen such a disjointed string of sentences in my life. You make lots of observations but no suggestions as to how to solve this
“The problem that will destroy America by itself if we don’t act now”
illegal immigrations is a wedge issue…nothing more. All of these problems can be solved. We just have to have the will. Hysteria such as post 188 are not conducive to solving our problems.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:33 pmYou should visit Africa, then see if you still like the idea of entire societies of refugees living in squalor, after they’ve flooded a neighboring region unable to care for them.
Comment by DieNowForPeace — January 31, 2008 @ 12:26 pm
I have. I’ve also visited slums in India, China, and several other countries. I don’t like the idea of entire societies living in squalor, whether they’re in New Orleans or New Delhi. If the United States wants to really get serious about dealing with migration issues, we need to look at illegal immigration not as the problem itself, but as a mere symptom of a global economic sickness.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:33 pmdim wit: Should we give them them actual numbers of “frivolous lawsuits” now or later? Fact is: 7 out of 10 in the last year were such and either were pitched out of court or settled out.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:34 pmFred: this is a wedge issue and the emotion I am seeing with the senior population give me reason to suspect that if the Rethugs can make it a “key issue”, they will have their foot in the door if we’re not careful. McInsane would be “Bush Lite”.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:36 pmtoaster: I always enjoy your more global perspective on things. Thanks. My vision is a tad more myopic I’m afraid and believe that we need to begin with doing what’s right with Katrina first. There is no doubt that the crisis is global in perspective but how can a falling country even begin to clean up the rest of the world before cleaning up their own back yard.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:38 pmThe Illegals should come in legally and there would not be a problem. They need to take their turn to become American citizens like the people who comes in legal.
Comment by Mary Poplins — January 31, 2008 @ 12:27 pm
I’m glad to see that the solutions are so simple. I wonder if we could apply this to other problems:
The people who commit larceny and homicide should just stop committing larceny and homicide. BAM! Crime problem solved.
The people who are making the economy weak should just stop making the economy weak. BAM! Recession solved.
The people who get heart disease and cancer should just stop getting heart disease and cancer. BAM! Health care problem solved.
The people who are getting killed in Iraq should just stop getting killed in Iraq. BAM! Iraq war solved.
Wow! Why didn’t I think of this before???
January 31st, 2008 at 12:38 pmbut as a mere symptom of a global economic sickness.
Comment by toasterhead
Alas, and a symptom we’re loath to find the cause of, because we’re to blame for the “global economic sickness”.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:39 pmAnd, unfortunately, since we’ve taken our eye off the ball (our own backyard, thanks to the Chimp), we don’t have the resources to even save ourselves. With the debt reaching a new high, how much can be done which requires money anyway? Bush has succeeding in destroying this country from the outside in and now it’s showing up in our economy. Remember Russia and how quickly they plunged once their economy crashed? If we hadn’t squandered our money on this heinous, illegal war, we’d be sitting pretty right now. OBL was accurate on that account: He didn’t have to do anything to us – we’re doing it to ourselves by throwing good money after bad.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:41 pmI guess what I’m saying that if we feel a “global responsibility” then we should be ruling the world. Otherwise, the adage applies quite aptly: Before attempting to clean up another’s back yard, be sure that yours is clean first.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:42 pmThere is no doubt that the crisis is global in perspective but how can a falling country even begin to clean up the rest of the world before cleaning up their own back yard.
Comment by Veritas — January 31, 2008 @ 12:38 pm
We have no choice. A significant part of the mess in the rest of the world is a result of our trade policy, foreign policy, and multinational corporate greed. In a globalized society, there is no “our mess” and “their mess.” They’re all the same mess.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:43 pmI have never made an a negative comment regarding you. I disagreed with you comment because I have actually seen and laid hands on what you say doesn’t exist – that is the frivilous medical malpractice law suit.
Comment by dim wit
fair enough dim wit. It just seems that you always stick up for what I consider the bad guy in this.
You say the frivilous lawsuit exists…ok. I can’t deny that it happens.
you then go on to say that the frivilous lawsuit is what is bankrupting our medical system and making it so expensive…..can’t go along with that.
I say frivilous lawsuit is a buzzword used by people who want doctors to not be held responsible for their mistakes in a capitalist system and that you can’t have it both ways.
Either its capitalism and let the courts decide what is and is not frivilous(not you or the repubs-or the doctors, etc) or we get a rational medical system installed and get the money out of it.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:43 pmdim wit: Should we give them them actual numbers of “frivolous lawsuits†now or later? Fact is: 7 out of 10 in the last year were such and either were pitched out of court or settled out.
Comment by Veritas
I would have to have verifiable facts to believe such a number. I just don’t even know how you could say such a thing.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:49 pmSettled out doesn’t mean it is frivolous. It means they are taking responsibility for their actions by paying a agreed amount of money to the plaintiffs. That is the opposite of a frivolous lawsuit.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:53 pmThe problem with the medical discussion that continues at post 181 is that not only are people being left with health problems that could be easily addressed……..people are dying in America.
People are choosing death over losing everything they and their families own…….you who defend the medical establisment…..please wake up.
Comment by Fred — January 31, 2008 @ 12:26 pm
I’m not sure if you meant that I am defending the medical establishment. My post was meant to point out that, while the issue of the uninsured and medical care for illegal aliens is a huge problem, anyone can get care for minor aliments at hospitals in my area. I know from personal experience that there are illegal aliens who won’t go for treatment for fear of deportation, as well as others who will go for a cold. In anticipation of getting the “concern troll” label, I don’t want anyone to go without treatment, legal or not. I want reform for the entire system, but I don’t think the solution is turning the whole thing over to the govt.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:55 pmFrom research: Harvard School of Public Health
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/2006-releases/press05102006.html
The debate over medical malpractice litigation, which raged during the last presidential campaign, continues as a hot-button political and health care issue in the U.S.
The researchers analyzed past malpractice claims to judge the volume of meritless lawsuits and determine their outcomes. Their findings suggest that portraits of a malpractice system riddled with frivolous lawsuits are overblown.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:56 pmThe Medical Malpractice Myth
from slate so you might condider it biased…..complete with links to back up all statements.
http://www.slate.com/id/2145400/
January 31st, 2008 at 1:08 pmyou then go on to say that the frivilous lawsuit is what is bankrupting our medical system and making it so expensive…..can’t go along with that.
Comment by Fred — January 31, 2008 @ 12:43 pm
Lawsuits are part of the problem with the system, but they are certainly not the only problem. I believe I agree with Veritas that they are a problem, but I disagree with him in the amount of blame they should receive.
In Veritas’s defense, if he works in the health system, as he claims to, then I would imagine he is much more “jaded” by the system than those of us who are looking from the outside in.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:10 pmdim wit: Should we give them them actual numbers of “frivolous lawsuits†now or later? Fact is: 7 out of 10 in the last year were such and either were pitched out of court or settled out.
Comment by Veritas
I don’t think so….see 211 and 212
January 31st, 2008 at 1:11 pmI believe that there are some frivolous lawsuits (vastly overstated by the right), but I will one up all of you here…
How many worthless and expensive tests are performed by doctors who are merely afraid of being sued???
I know when I go in for one minor ailment, doctors want to perform a whole battery of tests for something relatively simple….
Then there is the latest and greatest meds and pushed by pharma…
Or how about all those new gadgets that the med equip vendors say are “a must have”..
How much does all this cost??? What are the real benefits???
I, for one, would sign up for a low-cost, low-haslle, low-tech health program that limits my ability to sue to GROSS malpractice.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:16 pmFred, I’ve done defense work on med malpractice suits. While not all are frivilous, I can assure you many are.
With that said, I believe malpractice lawsuits are part of the problem, but certainly not the only problem with the healthcare industry.
Comment by dim wit
dw, I went back and read through your posts and you are correct. You did state that you thought it is part of the problem but not the only one….
I still contend from my experience and research that frivilous lawsuits are a sham used by the republicans. It is not real. See previous posts for evidence in links……
January 31st, 2008 at 1:20 pmSettled out doesn’t mean it is frivolous. It means they are taking responsibility for their actions by paying a agreed amount of money to the plaintiffs. That is the opposite of a frivolous lawsuit.
Comment by Bluedahlia — January 31, 2008 @ 12:53 pm
or it could mean the hospital/malpractive insurance company is making an economical decision to settle instead of defend.
I handle these lawsuits all the time and I often make “nuisance offers”
January 31st, 2008 at 1:32 pmGood Morning all, No time to read all the post’s today but will throw a couple of thing’s out there for you consideration and thought…My local paper the Herald has an interesting article.. Under the table…www.HERALDNET.COM.
Many are being exploited because they are here illegaly..They don’t pay taxes and are not counted when they don’t have a S.S. number or green card…The other side of that is they are getting medical coverage, food stamp’s, welfare, food bank’s and many service’s by applying….Local clinic’s like mine are flooded with illegal’s that show up with a coupon for free medical…I don’t object to them getting all the benefit’s for health care, food and shelter but I do object to the fact ( I, we) can not get the same benefit’s because of the huge influx…Legal is one thing, illegal is another..If some one break’s the law to get here, allow’s them selves to be exploited and pay’s nothing into the system there need’s to be some law’s inforced…The big law should be inforced with employer’s being held accountable…Who are they hiring at slave wage’s and why aren’t the taxe’s and benefit’s being accounted for…For over 30 year’s I have known of illegal’s being hired by casinos in Nevada with phoney S.S. number’s…That money goe’s into the S.S. fund and never claimed by the illegal’s…They don’t pay state and fed taxes because they were taught to put down lot’s of family member’s..Huge deduction’s like 14 dependent’s.
I can not get an appointment with out a struggle because our local clinic is so over run and understaffed….I have medacare and co pay’s and I am punished for being legal, retired, white and not pregnant….Reverse discrimination at the worst…One of the clinic’s hispanic receptionest was finelly fired for blatent discrimination against several patient’s who are white….She would ignore our call’s, speak only to the hispanic’s and look right through us in line to the hispanic’s waiting behind us.
This year all expenses went up, premium’s on part D and medicare…(I we) didn’t get anything extra, infact the co pay’s went up also…So now here we are with (we) many of us being discriminated against and paying more when there are illegal’s who are paying nothing…..I say find all these people, document, educate, feed, house and employ them legally….All should pay their fair share….If they are not legal or have comitted crime’s, deport and make them apply..Tighten up the border’s and start clamping down on these corrupt employer’s…Blessings
January 31st, 2008 at 2:20 pm“… and start clamping down on these corrupt employer’s… Blessings”
Comment by Witch1 — January 31, 2008 @ 2:20 pm
Ding*Ding*Ding*Ding*Ding!!! We have a winner…
“Clamping down on these corrupt employers” is the answer!!!
(And fixing the economies of Mexico, et al, would help too…)
January 31st, 2008 at 2:26 pm218 – the prize goes here. Clamping down on corrupt employers is the key. that along with enforcing border security. if there were no jobs to come to people wouldn’t come at all.
January 31st, 2008 at 2:30 pmwitch1 – reverse discrimination is one of byproducts of illegal immigration and tax paying americans are getting the shaft.
January 31st, 2008 at 2:35 pm(methinks too many stay at home women with the tired old “chip on the shoulder†doth post here to much.)
Comment by DieNowForPeace — January 31, 2008 @ 11:47 am
I really hope you’re making a joke.
January 31st, 2008 at 2:43 pmif there were no jobs to come to people wouldn’t come at all.
Comment by Namaste — January 31, 2008 @ 2:30 pm
If they could find decent jobs “there”, they wouldn’t bother to come “here”, would they?
I have read that there are entire villages in Mexico that are almost completely devoid of young men, because so many of them went to “El Norte” looking for work. Can’t imagine that a lot of them would have gladly stayed there if they could have made a living right there.
Of course, a lot of the trouble w/ the Mexican economy is prolly due to the influence of American multi-national corps throwing their weight around.
So by lowering wages down there, the big corps have also managed to lower wages up here, too. Geez, it is a small world after all…
January 31st, 2008 at 3:04 pmComment by Zooey — January 31, 2008 @ 2:43 pm
Yer right, Z… that’s one nutty post.
January 31st, 2008 at 3:06 pmI find the terms “illegals†and “undocumented workers†and the like very dehumanizing, and I wanted to inject the humanity back into the debate.
Comment by toasterhead
I find the term disgusting and is openly racist.
Comment by Juan C. — January 31, 2008 @ 11:55 am
This perception will lead you to label as racist people who are not. These are merely terms describing the immigration status of people. I have no ill will toward illegal immigrants. On the contrary, I volunteer regularly at a facility that gives various types of aid to those in need regardless of their immigration status. I think the U.S. should increase the number of work visas granted. I think illegal immigrants should be able to receive medical care until our govt can come up with solutions to the medical and immigration problems. None of that changes the fact that they came to the U.S. illegally. The terms don’t imply judgement of whether they should have come or not, simply that they have.
January 31st, 2008 at 3:13 pmJust wanted to say that this is a great discussion here today and it’s a good sign for the Progressive movement.
It’s okay to disagree. It is what makes us different than “the others”. Don’t stop just because it gets uncomfortable. Actually discussing the issues beyond the sound bite talking points is the most healthy thing we can possibly be doing, right now. The majority of the personal attacks seem to stem from not knowing how to act when disagreeing with a non-troll. Just learn form it and grow.
That’s all I wanted to say. Thanks!
January 31st, 2008 at 3:14 pmOk, I have to weigh in myself now. To bilbobaggins:
They aren’t ‘illegal human beings’, whose crime is solely to exist. No, their crime is bypassing our nation’s laws and sneak into the country. From there, because they are here in violation of our laws, they begin breaking other laws. Driving without insurance. Not paying taxes. Not paying for their health-care. Your answer seems to be ‘throw open the borders and let them in without a care in the world’. I’m sorry, but my compassion for another person ends if they are busy pulling me down to take what I have. Call me selfish, guilty as charged.
Our immigration laws are designed to strengthen our borders, culturally and economically. Free flow of people will impact our culture, and most importantly, sink our own prosperity. There are only so many dollars (and houses and so on) to go around. Also, do not dismiss the Mexican patriots who are here to try to reclaim the lands they lost in the Mexican-American war.
Short answer? Problem or not, the solution is NOT to throw open our borders and reward those who illegally entered the country and have broken other laws in the course of their stay here.
January 31st, 2008 at 3:15 pmTo all of you protesting, justifiedly, against people entering without proper documentation to the US, I would like to see you also protesting the way your country breaks systematically international laws.
Thank you.
Bilbo and Toaster, great job.
January 31st, 2008 at 3:24 pmHeh, I protest just as vocally about people entering without proper documentation as I do about our country systematically breaking international laws. Both are wrong, Juan, and though I’m not sure how to express this in Spanish, I trust your English is good enough to understand the colloquial expression I’m about to use.
“Two wrongs don’t make a right.”
January 31st, 2008 at 4:01 pmOk, I have to weigh in myself now. To bilbobaggins:
They aren’t ‘illegal human beings’, whose crime is solely to exist. No, their crime is bypassing our nation’s laws and sneak into the country. From there, because they are here in violation of our laws, they begin breaking other laws. Driving without insurance. Not paying taxes.
First, I did not call them “illegal human beings”, I called them undocumented workers. The only reason why they “bypassed our nations laws” to sneak into this country is because there is no legal way for them to do it. And once again, I must say that they would not come here if there were not jobs waiting for them. As far as driving without insurance, that is because most states won’t allow them to get a driver’s license and without a driver’s license, they can’t get insurance. California solved that problem by allowing them to get a driver’s license (I’m not sure it still stands, though) and the incidents of people being involved with an accident with an uninsurred undocumented worker fell dramatically there. And, as far as not paying taxes, more pay taxes than you would think. I worked for an industry that hired lots of illegals. They all had fake social security cards (mostly the numbers of dead people). Those workers had all their taxes taken out of their checks and that money will never be recovered by them. I wish I could find the article I once read that estimated the undocumented workers contribute many millions of dollars a year in taxes into our system that will never be recovered. So in a way, they do pay for the few services they do get.
Not paying for their health-care. Your answer seems to be ‘throw open the borders and let them in without a care in the world’. I’m sorry, but my compassion for another person ends if they are busy pulling me down to take what I have. Call me selfish, guilty as charged.
Also, many undocumented workers get health care through their employers. They are the ones who are working on a stolen SSN. Please show me where I ever said “throw open the borders and let them in without a care in the world”. I have never said that I don’t support that. I would like to see some kind of an equitable “guest worker” program where they can come here legally and work, get taxed money they can recover and require their employers to give them all the same benefits that their other workers get.
To me the biggest problem in “immigration” are the H1 visas. Not only are we sending our good jobs to India, we are bringing workers from India here to take our good jobs in our own country. The high tech industries like HP and Microsoft bring H1 workers here (mostly programmers and engineers) and pay them less than half what they would have to pay a US worker for that job. They are supposed to have to prove that they can’t find a US worker to do the job before they can use the H1 visas, but that rarely happens. Besides, of course they can’t find a programmer to work for $10 an hour when the prevailing wage is $25 an hour.
January 31st, 2008 at 4:14 pmShort answer? Problem or not, the solution is NOT to throw open our borders and reward those who illegally entered the country and have broken other laws in the course of their stay here.
Comment by Jeremy in Denver
No Jeremy, the solution is to either arrest the employers who hire illegals and put them in jail. Or, to create some kind of a workable guest worker program where they can come here legally and not be exploited by the employers who hire them.
January 31st, 2008 at 4:17 pmTo all of you protesting, justifiedly, against people entering without proper documentation to the US, I would like to see you also protesting the way your country breaks systematically international laws.
Thank you.
Bilbo and Toaster, great job.
Comment by Juan C.
Well, this is an issue that is close to my heart. I worked for quite a few years in the winery industry in Northern California and I have called undocumented workers my friends. They are, for the most part, very good people and exceedingly hard workers. They want to do the right thing and given the chance to do the right thing, they will do it. Like driving without insurance. They would be happy to purchase insurance if there was a way to do it. When California made it legal for them to get driver’s licenses, they got insurance.
Several of the wineries I worked for treated their undocumented workers like family and took very good care of them. The same people came back year after year. If they wanted to become citizens, the winery owners sponsored them and worked with them to become citizens. There is actually one winery in California that is owned and run by a family who were illegal when they entered this country.
People like veritas and others here who are virulently anti immigrant never answer the question about what would happen if every undocumented worker walked off their job tomorrow. I wish that would happen just to wake America up to the problem that we have created. If they all walked off their jobs there would be no one to empty bedpans in nursing homes, no one to wash dishes in restaurants, no one to clean the rooms in hotels and no one to pick the fruits and vegetables we eat every day. The tourist industry in this country would be decimated without undocumented workers.
So, the next time you want to go off on a rant about all those criminal illegal aliens (criminal by virtue of the fact that they came into this country illegally), think about the preceding paragraph.
January 31st, 2008 at 4:25 pmFred: this is a wedge issue and the emotion I am seeing with the senior population give me reason to suspect that if the Rethugs can make it a “key issueâ€, they will have their foot in the door if we’re not careful. McInsane would be “Bush Liteâ€.
Comment by Veritas
You are right, “illegal immigration” is a wedge issue and you and people like you are going to help the Republicans, not the Democrats with your views on the subject. McCain will undoubtedly see the “error of his ways” and start talking about building a wall along our border to keep out all those illegals who just could become terrorists. And that will feed into the anti immigrant hysteria that flows through the heartland and in states that don’t have a large immigrant population. Are you going to vote against a Democrat if they propose a program to allow the undocumented workers here a path to citizenship?
January 31st, 2008 at 4:33 pmComment by bilbobaggins — January 31, 2008 @ 4:25 pm
I’m not virulently anti immigrant. In fact my experience with undocumented immigrants has been similar to yours. If they were suddenly gone, there would be a temporary disruption of the economy. But businesses would quickly respond by offering higher wages to fill the positions and raise their prices accordingly. As pointed out previously, they come for the jobs; the low wages exist because they are willing to take them. But never underestimate the power of capitalism to meet demand.
January 31st, 2008 at 4:53 pm“Two wrongs don’t make a right.â€
Comment by Jeremy in Denver
I agree, Jeremy.
However, I think one thing is to drop bombs over women and children or impose economic sanctions over countries (Cuba, Iraq, etc.) punishing their civilians and another thing is to break the law in order to WORK. In order to GET A JOB.
I know it is a complex issue and I welcome every opinion, but I think you see my point.
January 31st, 2008 at 5:18 pmAs pointed out previously, they come for the jobs; the low wages exist because they are willing to take them. But never underestimate the power of capitalism to meet demand.
Comment by upright left
Low wages exist because the corporations in this country are all about greed and when they can pay a foreign worker half the salary of someone from this country, they will do it.
On the other hand, when the depression hits, there will be plenty of Americans who will be willing to pick our fruits and vegetables and do all the other dirty jobs just to be able to live. That will solve our undocumented immigrant problems. When this country is in a similar financial shape as Mexico, we will all be SOL.
January 31st, 2008 at 6:48 pm