Low wages exist because the corporations in this country are all about greed and when they can pay a foreign worker half the salary of someone from this country, they will do it.

On the other hand, when the depression hits, there will be plenty of Americans who will be willing to pick our fruits and vegetables and do all the other dirty jobs just to be able to live. That will solve our undocumented immigrant problems. When this country is in a similar financial shape as Mexico, we will all be SOL.

I agree, Jeremy.

However, I think one thing is to drop bombs over women and children or impose economic sanctions over countries (Cuba, Iraq, etc.) punishing their civilians and another thing is to break the law in order to WORK. In order to GET A JOB.

I know it is a complex issue and I welcome every opinion, but I think you see my point.

I’m not virulently anti immigrant. In fact my experience with undocumented immigrants has been similar to yours. If they were suddenly gone, there would be a temporary disruption of the economy. But businesses would quickly respond by offering higher wages to fill the positions and raise their prices accordingly. As pointed out previously, they come for the jobs; the low wages exist because they are willing to take them. But never underestimate the power of capitalism to meet demand.

You are right, “illegal immigration” is a wedge issue and you and people like you are going to help the Republicans, not the Democrats with your views on the subject. McCain will undoubtedly see the “error of his ways” and start talking about building a wall along our border to keep out all those illegals who just could become terrorists. And that will feed into the anti immigrant hysteria that flows through the heartland and in states that don’t have a large immigrant population. Are you going to vote against a Democrat if they propose a program to allow the undocumented workers here a path to citizenship?

Well, this is an issue that is close to my heart. I worked for quite a few years in the winery industry in Northern California and I have called undocumented workers my friends. They are, for the most part, very good people and exceedingly hard workers. They want to do the right thing and given the chance to do the right thing, they will do it. Like driving without insurance. They would be happy to purchase insurance if there was a way to do it. When California made it legal for them to get driver’s licenses, they got insurance.

Several of the wineries I worked for treated their undocumented workers like family and took very good care of them. The same people came back year after year. If they wanted to become citizens, the winery owners sponsored them and worked with them to become citizens. There is actually one winery in California that is owned and run by a family who were illegal when they entered this country.

People like veritas and others here who are virulently anti immigrant never answer the question about what would happen if every undocumented worker walked off their job tomorrow. I wish that would happen just to wake America up to the problem that we have created. If they all walked off their jobs there would be no one to empty bedpans in nursing homes, no one to wash dishes in restaurants, no one to clean the rooms in hotels and no one to pick the fruits and vegetables we eat every day. The tourist industry in this country would be decimated without undocumented workers.

So, the next time you want to go off on a rant about all those criminal illegal aliens (criminal by virtue of the fact that they came into this country illegally), think about the preceding paragraph.

No Jeremy, the solution is to either arrest the employers who hire illegals and put them in jail. Or, to create some kind of a workable guest worker program where they can come here legally and not be exploited by the employers who hire them.

First, I did not call them “illegal human beings”, I called them undocumented workers. The only reason why they “bypassed our nations laws” to sneak into this country is because there is no legal way for them to do it. And once again, I must say that they would not come here if there were not jobs waiting for them. As far as driving without insurance, that is because most states won’t allow them to get a driver’s license and without a driver’s license, they can’t get insurance. California solved that problem by allowing them to get a driver’s license (I’m not sure it still stands, though) and the incidents of people being involved with an accident with an uninsurred undocumented worker fell dramatically there. And, as far as not paying taxes, more pay taxes than you would think. I worked for an industry that hired lots of illegals. They all had fake social security cards (mostly the numbers of dead people). Those workers had all their taxes taken out of their checks and that money will never be recovered by them. I wish I could find the article I once read that estimated the undocumented workers contribute many millions of dollars a year in taxes into our system that will never be recovered. So in a way, they do pay for the few services they do get.

Not paying for their health-care. Your answer seems to be ‘throw open the borders and let them in without a care in the world’. I’m sorry, but my compassion for another person ends if they are busy pulling me down to take what I have. Call me selfish, guilty as charged.

Also, many undocumented workers get health care through their employers. They are the ones who are working on a stolen SSN. Please show me where I ever said “throw open the borders and let them in without a care in the world”. I have never said that I don’t support that. I would like to see some kind of an equitable “guest worker” program where they can come here legally and work, get taxed money they can recover and require their employers to give them all the same benefits that their other workers get.

To me the biggest problem in “immigration” are the H1 visas. Not only are we sending our good jobs to India, we are bringing workers from India here to take our good jobs in our own country. The high tech industries like HP and Microsoft bring H1 workers here (mostly programmers and engineers) and pay them less than half what they would have to pay a US worker for that job. They are supposed to have to prove that they can’t find a US worker to do the job before they can use the H1 visas, but that rarely happens. Besides, of course they can’t find a programmer to work for $10 an hour when the prevailing wage is $25 an hour.

“Two wrongs don’t make a right.”

Thank you.

Bilbo and Toaster, great job.

They aren’t ‘illegal human beings’, whose crime is solely to exist. No, their crime is bypassing our nation’s laws and sneak into the country. From there, because they are here in violation of our laws, they begin breaking other laws. Driving without insurance. Not paying taxes. Not paying for their health-care. Your answer seems to be ‘throw open the borders and let them in without a care in the world’. I’m sorry, but my compassion for another person ends if they are busy pulling me down to take what I have. Call me selfish, guilty as charged.

Our immigration laws are designed to strengthen our borders, culturally and economically. Free flow of people will impact our culture, and most importantly, sink our own prosperity. There are only so many dollars (and houses and so on) to go around. Also, do not dismiss the Mexican patriots who are here to try to reclaim the lands they lost in the Mexican-American war.

Short answer? Problem or not, the solution is NOT to throw open our borders and reward those who illegally entered the country and have broken other laws in the course of their stay here.

It’s okay to disagree. It is what makes us different than “the others”. Don’t stop just because it gets uncomfortable. Actually discussing the issues beyond the sound bite talking points is the most healthy thing we can possibly be doing, right now. The majority of the personal attacks seem to stem from not knowing how to act when disagreeing with a non-troll. Just learn form it and grow.

That’s all I wanted to say. Thanks!

I find the term disgusting and is openly racist.

Comment by Juan C. — January 31, 2008 @ 11:55 am

This perception will lead you to label as racist people who are not. These are merely terms describing the immigration status of people. I have no ill will toward illegal immigrants. On the contrary, I volunteer regularly at a facility that gives various types of aid to those in need regardless of their immigration status. I think the U.S. should increase the number of work visas granted. I think illegal immigrants should be able to receive medical care until our govt can come up with solutions to the medical and immigration problems. None of that changes the fact that they came to the U.S. illegally. The terms don’t imply judgement of whether they should have come or not, simply that they have.

Yer right, Z… that’s one nutty post.

Comment by Namaste — January 31, 2008 @ 2:30 pm

If they could find decent jobs “there”, they wouldn’t bother to come “here”, would they?

I have read that there are entire villages in Mexico that are almost completely devoid of young men, because so many of them went to “El Norte” looking for work. Can’t imagine that a lot of them would have gladly stayed there if they could have made a living right there.

Of course, a lot of the trouble w/ the Mexican economy is prolly due to the influence of American multi-national corps throwing their weight around.

So by lowering wages down there, the big corps have also managed to lower wages up here, too. Geez, it is a small world after all…

I really hope you’re making a joke.

Comment by Witch1 — January 31, 2008 @ 2:20 pm

Ding*Ding*Ding*Ding*Ding!!! We have a winner…

“Clamping down on these corrupt employers” is the answer!!!

(And fixing the economies of Mexico, et al, would help too…)

I can not get an appointment with out a struggle because our local clinic is so over run and understaffed….I have medacare and co pay’s and I am punished for being legal, retired, white and not pregnant….Reverse discrimination at the worst…One of the clinic’s hispanic receptionest was finelly fired for blatent discrimination against several patient’s who are white….She would ignore our call’s, speak only to the hispanic’s and look right through us in line to the hispanic’s waiting behind us.

This year all expenses went up, premium’s on part D and medicare…(I we) didn’t get anything extra, infact the co pay’s went up also…So now here we are with (we) many of us being discriminated against and paying more when there are illegal’s who are paying nothing…..I say find all these people, document, educate, feed, house and employ them legally….All should pay their fair share….If they are not legal or have comitted crime’s, deport and make them apply..Tighten up the border’s and start clamping down on these corrupt employer’s…Blessings

Comment by Bluedahlia — January 31, 2008 @ 12:53 pm

or it could mean the hospital/malpractive insurance company is making an economical decision to settle instead of defend.

I handle these lawsuits all the time and I often make “nuisance offers”