McCain Claims Iraq ‘Casualties Are Coming Down,’ But Casualties Actually Increased In January
McCain Claims Iraq ‘Casualties Are Coming Down,’ But Casualties Actually Increased In January
On Fox News Sunday today, when Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) was asked about his claim that 100 years in Iraq “would be fine” with him, he said “it’s not a matter of how long Americans stay, it’s a matter of American casualties.” “And those casualties are coming down,” added McCain.
McCain then declared that “we don’t need to have casualties” because of the “surge,” which he says is “experiencing significant success”:
One of the obligations, unfortunately of being a great superpower, is that we have to take care of the world’s security. But we don’t need to have casualties because we can succeed in this strategy called the surge, which is now, I think experiencing significant success.
Watch it:
Unfortunately, McCain’s claim that U.S. troop “casualties are coming down” is misleading happy talk. In reality, casualties actually increased this past month:
Not only did casualties increase in January, but the number of U.S. troops who “died from hostile action” was higher in January than the total number of casualties in December 2007.
In declaring “significant success” in Iraq, McCain appears to be using the Bush administration calculus that says increasing levels of violence are equal to “signs of success.”
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mcCain is planning on a terrorist attack against the US. It is his only chance. The economy is tanking under repub direction and eveyone is tired of the wars……..he is in his 70’s for god’s sake…….
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:37 amJust Say No to McBush
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:37 amUnfortunately, McCain’s claim that U.S. troop “casualties are coming down†is misleading happy talk. In reality, casualties actually increased this past month.
Well, there’s a surprise. A republican can’t get next to the truth…..huh. I am shocked, shocked I tell ya. After they brought integrity and responibility to government for us……/sarc
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:41 amI don’t know what you all are complaining about - the surge worked perfectly. It got Iraq out of the news agenda long enough for the Republican presidential candidates to claim victory for the Bush administration.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:42 amAnd of course McCain, nor the MSM mentions the fact that the casualties of the Iraqi people are rising. This is because of the fact that we are no longer sending our troops out on the roads (resulting in a reduction of American casualties), but are in fact bombing the shit out of the country (resulting in increased Iraqi casualties).
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:46 amI don’t know what you all are complaining about - the surge worked perfectly. It got Iraq out of the news agenda long enough for the Republican presidential candidates to claim victory for the Bush administration.
Comment by toasterhead
You forgot to mention that they have also dragged Iraq out so that once the Bushies declare victory they can then turn the Occupation of Iraq over to the new Democratic president.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:47 amThe bush/cheney tactic of claiming whatever they want regardless of the reality and the obedient press goes along is now the Repub tactic. It doesn’t matter what the issue might be, they will simply say what makes them look good and keep repeating it until every news paper and TV news show in America has printed or broadcast it as “truth.”
We can only hope that one day, a broadcaster will look McCain or (fill in the name of repub) in the face and say, “Sir, you are a liar. The facts do not back you up and why are you lying to us and Americans about this important fact?”
PS: I’m not holding my breath.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:49 amThe Happy Talk Express.
-GSD
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:02 amMy friends, he has no idea what’s going on, my friends.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:08 amThe American people left , in one month of these primaries , with no good options,other than to see warmongers remained on the ballot.
Either McCain or Hillary, and both loved and backed by AIPAC and will do anything to go into more wars .
The difference is McCain talks loudly about it, but Hillary is attempting to make us fools by deying her own war record.
Either way, the Americans will find themselves again..paying high prices of blood and money for wars cooked abroad, when both candidates allowed themselves to be servants to the well known PNAC manifesto,
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:12 amalthough the majority of Americans want an end to the Iraqi war; they elected a Congress to do just that,but again the war party is winning;
Again, Americans wondering if the election system had failed them,one more time.
St. John McCain- you’ll be the Repub candidate, & so looking forward to a Democratic landslide this fall. We take Congress & the WH. No one who actually votes can stand the Repuke party line & lies any longer
Your time came & went, my friend.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:13 amComment by tarazan
Bill didn’t invade and occupy a country…….I don’t especially love hillary but I take issue with you comparing any democrat to mcdummy or mcrommny….
sorry, they are different.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:14 amNo.7, SWBob: I’ve got to agree.
This kind of story is beyond tired.
Okay, he lied, BFD, they do it constantly.
This kind of crap only becomes news-worthy when they are confronted by the interviewer and called out on their lies.
Which as we’ve seen, never happens.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:17 am“McCain then declared that “we don’t need to have casualties†because of the “surge,†which he says is “experiencing significant successâ€:
One of the obligations, unfortunately of being a great superpower, is that we have to take care of the world’s security. But we don’t need to have casualties because we can succeed in this strategy called the surge, which is now, I think experiencing significant success.
I have some serious problems with the above excerpt from the story. First of all, we are no longer a “great superpower.” The Bushies and their criminal warmongering buddies have ensured that.
Second, if we have to “take care of the world’s security” and the Bushie/neocon strategy to do that is to start pre-emptive wars that are financed by going into hock to other countries?
Let’s face it folks. The United States of America no longer belongs to us. Take a look and see who is financing our deficit — it sure isn’t us. We now belong to foreign governments and that isn’t good. Of course, the neocon mantra is that deficits don’t matter. However, any of us who live from paycheck to paycheck know that you shouldn’t spend what you don’t have. If you do, you end up in deep kimchee and someone else owns your soul.
McCain is even nuttier than I had originally given him credit for.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:23 amAnd really, why such a focus on only American casualties? How many Iraqis are dying everyday?
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:26 amLet’s face it folks. The United States of America no longer belongs to us. Take a look and see who is financing our deficit — it sure isn’t us. We now belong to foreign governments and that isn’t good.
Comment by Helen Rainier
Helen, they do this every time. Why the American people don’t see through their lies I don’t know. We have been in this kind of debt before and we survived…..we have to get them out of office again though. Raygun sold our country and so did Nixon.
It is only under a republican administration that you will see our National Parks and monuments on the auction block.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:27 amCasualties down = we have to stay to maintain our “success”
Casualties up = we can’t leave now or the country will descend into total anarchy
So their argument is tails, I win, heads, you lose.
Either way, it’s more “stay the course/surge is working/no cut and run” for the neo-cons and their puppets in Washington.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:34 amHaving worked for Senator McCain on his 2000 Presidential run, I have great respect for him and his service to our country… however, I don’t believe that we can keep troops in Iraq for 50 or 100 years even if the casualties comes down… the Korea Model won’t work in Iraq… read my blog post here to see why.
Former Repub Strategist turned PURPLE,
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:36 amMr. Purple
Having worked for Senator McCain on his 2000 Presidential run, I have great respect for him
Comment by Mr. Purple
What exactly has he done to respect? Served? Ok…Beyond that, seriously, what has he said that he has not flipped on. Torture for example, he was against it before he was for it……yes, he is for it now.
So, you can learn. How could you have ever been fooled by him? Oh yeah, you though Rayguy was a great American too, right?
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:41 amUntil Fox posts a graph like the one above as McCain is speaking, these shows are nothing more than blatant lie forums designed to take advantage of their ignorant viewers.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:41 amHow many times have the warmongers used that “casualties are coming down” crap to justify their continuous and endless claims of success? Considering the ups and downs of the monthly tallies, you can pretty much say this same f—ing thing every other f—ing month. Anyone got a list?
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:44 am“you don’t have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.” - Bob Dylan
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:50 amdo they know what the weathermen were?
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:52 am*It’ll be a cakewalk!
*There are WMD’s!
*Mission accomplished!
*As the Iraqis stand up, we’ll stand down!
*There is no insurgency, just some dead enders.
*A handful of former Saddamites!
*The insurgency is in its last throes, if you will.
*Elections!
*Purple fingers!
*There is trouble in only 4 of 18 provinces!
*We are turning the corner.
*Our enemies are the few Saddmists left over.
*Our enemies are Sunni insurgents.
*Our biggest enemy is Abu Musab Al Zaraqwi!
*Our enemies are coming in from Syria!
*Our enemies are coming in from Iran!
*Moqtada Al Sadr is public enemy # 1!
*We will de-Baathify Iraq!
*The oil law is weeks away from being signed!
*A surge in troops will give the government room to negotiate!
*The surge is working!
*We can’t cut and run!
*We can’t wave the white flag of surrender!
*Reconciliation will happen after 2009!
Post 2009 talking points!
*We must get out now!
*The US deaths under president Clinton are untenable!
*We must see the truth, let the cameras show coffins coming home from Iraq!
*Pres. Clinton is wasting 12 billion dollars a month!
-GSD
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:58 amFred- I respect McCain’s position on Global Warming… and I thought he did the right thing by immigration. For me, I was calling for more troops to Iraq right along with him up until 1/1/06 when I realized that politics would get in the way of any troop increase until the tide turned… and it did in Nov. of ‘06 so to that end, I also agreed with McCain’s critique and suggestion of more troops right after Baghdad fell…
But now, I think McCain is pandering too much to the far right given his political situation in the Presidential race.
Mr. Purple
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:59 amHey, Old Man Mcmaim, one casualty too GD many!
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:00 pmthat’s very telling GSD….thanks.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:01 pmIt amazes me that this guy who spent years as a POW would be so eager to continue this illegal and unwarranted war.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:01 pmThe bar has been lowered to the point now that it is below sea level.
Comment by Mr. Purple
maybe you misunderstood me……..I think mccain would be another tragedy for America. I hope he is the republican candidate though because he can’t win…..
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:05 pmMcCain and the Republicans are, unfortunately, disconnected from reality. To them Iraq is just an operational problem that is getting better all the time. Unfortunately it’s neither.
If we make Hillary our nominee she will be vulnerable on this point because she voted for the war. It will be much harder for her to argue it’s misconceived than it will be for Obama, who was right on the war all along.
Obama is a great candidate. We should not vote for the other because she has a track record of making big mistakes (failed health care reform in the early 1990s, Iraq war, voting for Bush’s warmongering proposal against Iran, hiding her records as First Lady, injecting underhanded racial politics in the Democratic Primary etc.)
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:19 pmforced myself to watch this guy on face the nation… trying to imagine
that he might be president… that is an ugly picture…
please no… we can’t have that…
OVERWHELMING DEMOCRATIC VOTER TURNOUT.
it’s the only way…
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:21 pmOff topic question:
If everyone sees McCliar & Lie-bur-mun installed, will they still say they were . . . elected ?
Wait . . . here’s a second one:
At what point in the public’s mind will it click that the this administration, 9-11, and what they’ve used it for is no coincidence ?
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:23 pmSurprise, surprise, More unfounded bs from Sen. John McWar.
His cheerleading for Bush’s Fiasco — started on a pack of lies and promoted by McWar on more lies — is running thin.
Good riddance to both of these despicable warmongers.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:24 pmOVERWHELMING DEMOCRATIC VOTER TURNOUT.
it’s the only way…
Comment by katy
As distasteful as voting for Hillary would be for me personally, if McCain is the nominee, she’ll get my vote.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:24 pmOVERWHELMING DEMOCRATIC VOTER TURNOUT.
it’s the only way…
Comment by katy — February 3, 2008 @ 12:21 pm
Also - not conceding on the night of the election despite numerous reports of election fraud and missing ballots
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:24 pmmccain is pathetically desperate. He is a vacuous, hollow man. He will say anything, literally anything he thinks will help him get elected. mccain’s run has absolutely nothing to do with helping America and everything to do with agrandizing john mccain.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:25 pm.
Obama is a great candidate. We should not vote for the other because she has a track record of making big mistakes (failed health care reform in the early 1990s, Iraq war, voting for Bush’s warmongering proposal against Iran, hiding her records as First Lady, injecting underhanded racial politics in the Democratic Primary etc.)
Comment by Duck Soup
I respect your choice and I will most likely vote for Obama too. I take issue with your attack on hillary though. What you call failed health care reform was not her failure….it was ours.
We have to quit attacking our decent leaders and turning our backs on them. We did it to Jimmy Carter, we did it to Al Gore, and we did it to hillary when she tried to get us health care….we let these people down, not the other way around.
No wonder Al has found more fulfilling things to do with his life…….we should be so ashamed that we let this happen……
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:28 pmI like your list GSC,…..neocons think we have no memory. ‘Stay the course’…and giant whopper…’We do not Tourture’.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:30 pmFebruary 3rd, 2008 at 12:30 pm
Dont we get it? Republicans just want to give every American generation its own “war stories.” Too bad it’s now evidence of war crimes against them.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:32 pmNo wonder Al has found more fulfilling things to do with his life…….we should be so ashamed that we let this happen……
Comment by Fred — February 3, 2008 @ 12:28 pm
Spot on.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:33 pmGrandpa “mayday” McCain will be the rearguard “sanitizer” for all the years of Bushite treason. He’ll disappear the records, impede the investigations and generally maintain the status quo until the reich has finished the job of destroying America, rendering it into an impoverished third-world shell of it’s former self. Can’t stand voting for Hillary? Imagine a thirty-years rightwing Supreme Court.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:36 pmit’s a matter of American casualties.â€
so that means that impoverishing the nation and stealing our children’s future to the tune of $2-$3 billion per week is OK as long as there are an “acceptable” level of American deaths as determined by mccain; and it says that immoral, ethically bankrupt, illegal criminal action on a massive scale is fine and that the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis count for squat. All is OK as long as chief louse mccain gets elected POTUS. The cravenness of mccain is staggering.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:37 pm.
you’re a real man, barfly…
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:39 pmComment by marlow — February 3, 2008 @ 12:36 pm
Thank you for making that point. Make no mistake, however: the nation is exausted and will have a low tolerance for Republican rhetoric on the campain trail vs. the dem nominee. Voters will make short work of Republicans in November.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:41 pmtoasterhead - if it’s not close, they can’t steal it…
no need to concede…
OVERWHELMING DEMOCRATIC VOTER TURNOUT.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:42 pmwe let these people down, not the other way around.
this is exactly right. We get what we deserve because we let republican corportists and Big Media destroy the best we have….most recently denying us the opportunity to elect John Edwards, who led on EVERY policy issue on the table - not Obama and not HRC - those 2 are followers, fronting for the corportists.
Most assuredly, whether Obama wins the dem primary or HRC, Big Media and the corportists will tear them asunder too. Only question is, will WE allow it to happen yet again?
BREAKUP UP BIG MEDIA NOW! to save America, to save our future.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:45 pm.
McCain is absolutely delusional.
February 3rd, 2008 at 1:12 pmAnd you can be rugs in the market places without a worry
February 3rd, 2008 at 1:16 pmMcCain is not able to lead or even think coherently, for that matter. When he shouted/sang “bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran” a few months ago, he sealed his fate as an alleged “leader” of the American people. McCain is just another cheerliar for the failed fascist aggression of Bush against the Afghani people and the Iraqi people.
February 3rd, 2008 at 1:53 pmWhen will someone finally come out and put a squeaking red nose and large shoes on McCain so we can finally see him for what he is?
February 3rd, 2008 at 2:06 pm“When will someone finally come out and put a squeaking red nose and large shoes on McCain so we can finally see him for what he is?”
Comment by jurassicpork
And the media would say, “oh, look, Maverick’s having a little Guiliani-style fun… It must be the pressures of the campaign trail… Ain’t it cute?”
February 3rd, 2008 at 3:10 pmFrom the article to which TP cited with approval:
“Nearly all agree that al Qaida in Iraq is weaker since the U.S. troop buildup began, but they caution that violence probably would return to places such as Baghdad and Anbar if American troops left.
Earlier this month, Maj. Gen. Rick Lynch, the commander of Multinational Division Central, which includes Baghdad, warned against pulling out U.S. troops too quickly.
“If you’ve got an area that you’ve taken away and you walk away from it, 96 hours later the enemy is back — and he’s intimidating the population (and) he’s killing innocent people,” Lynch said. “So we have to manage this transition very diligently.”
So, we see that not only has the surge worked in helping to bring about the defeat Al Qaeda in Iraq, we also see that withdrawing too quickly before the job is done will only lead to a resurgence of Al Qaeda and more innocent Iraqis killed.
February 3rd, 2008 at 3:14 pmSo, we see that not only has the surge worked in helping to bring about the defeat Al Qaeda in Iraq, we also see that withdrawing too quickly before the job is done will only lead to a resurgence of Al Qaeda and more innocent Iraqis killed.
Comment by Exley — February 3, 2008 @ 3:14 pm
That’s the opinion of another Bushco tool. It is not an informed opinion, it is fear-mongering and speculation, put out there just for boobs like you, exley. You idiots that will believe anything if it involves arms dealers making more billions. the can see you coming a mile away, and they snicker when you’ve taken the bait. Your understanding of foreign policy is non-existent.
February 3rd, 2008 at 3:22 pm“That’s the opinion of another Bushco tool. It is not an informed opinion, it is fear-mongering and speculation, put out there just for boobs like you”
Actually, if I read the article, you’d see that is the opinion of the U.S. commanders on the ground in Iraq. Re-read the article, “professor.” Slowly this time.
February 3rd, 2008 at 3:35 pmAs I’ve explained before, when you try and clear out an insurgent stronghold, casualties rise. This happened with Fallujah (success), areas of Baghdad (success), and now we’re trying it in Mosul. Violence is down dramatically in those first two areas, and I think we can all hope that we will have similar progress in Mosul.
I’m not sure why people keep harping on this 100 years comment - we’ve been in places from Korea to Kuwait for years now. McCain is right.
February 3rd, 2008 at 3:41 pmMcCain is absolutely correct. U.S. casualties are down substantially since the the surge was fully put into effect earlier this year. The chart makes that clear….Despite the apparent joy by many of the left that there has been slight uptick in U.S. casualties in January, the success of the surge since it reached full strength in June 2007 in reducing US military and Iraqi civilian casualties is dramatic and undeniable.
As Michael Goldfarb reports, “The number of ethno-sectarian deaths nationwide has dropped from 131 in the first three weeks of November to 76 in the most recent three weeks of January. In Baghdad, the numbers are even more impressive, from 72 in the first three weeks of November to just 18 in the last three weeks. Likewise, civilian deaths are down across the board–and in roughly the same proportions.
The left has ignored the trends of the last six months in favor of comparing December, the surge’s most impressive month statistically, to January, which has seen something of a leveling off. But still, the violence is down dramatically–and this is a rather pathetic attempt to demonstrate otherwise.”
Raw numbers:
February 3rd, 2008 at 3:47 pmhttp://www.washingtonindependent.com/view/iraq-security
Can McCain give us a figure on how many thousand Iraqis got killed so far…before he tells us the firgure of killed Iraqis is down ?
February 3rd, 2008 at 3:55 pm#56
Well-said, thirdparty. As the article makes clear, the slight uptick in US military casualties in January in the result of an offensive launched against AQI in several terrorist strongholds:
“U.S. officials in Iraq said the death toll had risen because the military was targeting armed groups that had been driven out of Baghdad and Anbar by the increase in American troops.
In January, the military launched a major offensive in northeastern Diyala province, where nine service members were killed. In addition, the U.S. moved troops to the northwestern Ninevah province, which has become an al Qaida in Iraq stronghold.”
February 3rd, 2008 at 3:59 pmMcCain is right.
Comment by thirdparty
McCain is absolutely correct.
Comment by Exley
See, this is why we can’t have a very good discussion.
February 3rd, 2008 at 4:10 pmWell-said, thirdparty. As the article makes clear, the slight uptick in US military casualties in January in the result of an offensive launched against AQI in several terrorist strongholds:
the “slight uptick” is because the US is launchoing an offensive? Then obviously the enemy has plenty of strength, or the offensive wouldn’t have such negative effects on the USers. rightards are the very stupidest.
February 3rd, 2008 at 4:16 pmMichael Goldfarb? bwahahahaha!
February 3rd, 2008 at 4:17 pmUS commanders on the ground have been absolute and abject failures, by the way, just like their chairbound leadership in washington. you gung-ho cowards like exley and thirdparty are the rubes that won’t understand that Bush has done far more damage to our military than insurgents or terrorists. too bad you’re not over there with targets on your backs, for all the hot air you expend instead of manning up and enisting. pussies.
February 3rd, 2008 at 4:20 pmHey, thirdparty, that “successful” campaign in Fallujah — would that be the first one or the second one?
February 3rd, 2008 at 4:42 pm“….Despite the apparent joy by many of the left that there has been slight uptick in U.S. casualties in January, the success of the surge since it reached full strength in June 2007 in reducing US military and Iraqi civilian casualties is dramatic and undeniable. ”
Name one person here or anywhere that has shown joy at the slight uptick in US casualties.
That is such a bullshit comment.
For over four years now, the US has been using a bucket brigade to fight a skyscraper burning out of control. The number of American forces sent to Iraq was and still is not enough to secure and stabilize the whole country.
The current mole-whacking going on in Iraq will do nothing. And it is not the fault of those Americans who are serving over there, it’s the failure of the leadership of this administration who decided to launch an invasion with half-assed pre-war planning, and best-cased scenario post-war expectations.
I for one, pray to God that I am wrong, and I am willing to have to endure hearing the chickenhawks gloat about how right they were.
Because to them, this war is just another game that they can run smack about, as they don’t have any to deal with the suffering and hardship that is is causing to millions.
February 3rd, 2008 at 4:45 pmMcCain Claims Iraq Casualties Are Coming Down,
February 3rd, 2008 at 4:46 pmRight… just like when McCain visited Iraq with cameras on him stating Iraq is safe while not in the camera were the 200 military guarding his a$$ along with helicopters in the air.
Obviously the 2nd one. The first one failed to enact the “clear, hold, and build” strategy because it only did the “clear” part. We changed that and had much better success the 2nd time.
February 3rd, 2008 at 4:57 pmNo one’s pretending there aren’t insurgents left in Mosul, so yes, they are strong there. But I would direct you to the problems those insurgents have been having in Anbar province and Baghdad, where they are much weaker.
February 3rd, 2008 at 5:00 pmThe idea that the surge is working because casualties are coming down is ridiculous even if teh casualties were truly showing a long-term statistical decrease.
If the military commanders have any sense at all, they would continuously look at what their opposition is doing and alter the behavior of the troops to decrease the number of needless deaths. They would alter their tactics to methods which are less sensitive to hostile attacks. This is simply a basis of strategy. So even hypothetical shows what a lie the surge working = less deaths is stupid on the face of it.
Add to this the significant information that the military has decreased patrols and stays more in protected strongholds would be a way to decrease military deaths. (which seems like an idea considering how the patrols were sitting ducks).
Of course, as #66 “had enough” points out, McCain used a variant of this when he never strayed from a safe area and a whole lot of fire power. It didn’t mean the surge was working, it just meant that he had enough “muscle” with him to protect him for a short term jaunt in a protected area.
February 3rd, 2008 at 5:01 pmOh no, I agree with a rightwinger nutjob like McCain…holy blinders, Batman, we can’t have a reasonable discussion now! Look, Fred, you wanna debate the merits, let’s debate them. You wanna take McCain out of it, fine. I’m my own man, so let’s forget McCain and debate. I’ll be back after the game.
February 3rd, 2008 at 5:01 pmthe point is not what the causes of the uptick in US casualties in January are, the point is that mccain lied about the violence, which means he is following exactly in the footsteps of the criminal serial liars that have defiled the White House for the past 7 plus years.
February 3rd, 2008 at 5:17 pm.
Look, Fred, you wanna debate the merits, let’s debate them. You wanna take McCain out of it, fine. I’m my own man, so let’s forget McCain and debate. I’ll be back after the game.
Comment by thirdparty
well, I can hardly wait. Just one problem. I never wanted to debate the merits with you. You gave yourself away when you came in here spouting right wing talking points like they were facts.
I gave you a couple of examples of why we can’t have a discussion. Here’s one of them again:
I’m not sure why people keep harping on this 100 years comment - we’ve been in places from Korea to Kuwait for years now. McCain is right.
Comment by thirdparty
Mcain is not right…….everyone agrees except you and exley……who are just repeating what you were told was the truth without anything to back it up. You guys have been wrong about eveerything…….and now you are the big losers….get ready to sit in the back seat where you belong.
please do not reply to this post.
February 3rd, 2008 at 5:30 pmIt’s not a lie. He’s making a statement about trends - and the trend is that casualties are declining. Yes, the number went up in January, but that is still lower than the numbers we used to be facing, even though we are going through an aggressive period of eliminating insurgents in Mosul.
I think I’ve come to terms with the fact that people on this blog will never acknowledge that the surge succeeded militarily. I agree on the points about politics, but looking at it military, it was a success.
Now, as I’ve been saying for a long time, it’s time for the political progress to occur. We have to be patient, and we have to realize that such reconciliation has occured at the local level. But nationally, I agree, it’s not a pretty picture. This recent de-Baathification law isn’t as good as its proponents say, nor is it as bad as its detractors suggest. It’s very vague and it will come down to implementation; thankfully, it looks like the Iraqi government realizes this and is trying to placate concerns:
Clearly, the news on this law is developing, and it will be a matter of time before we know if it was a step forward or backward. If it turns out to be amended and implemented fairly, that will be a crushing blow not just to the insurgents in Iraq but also to the argument that political progress isn’t happening. Again, I think we’ll see if the government can make progress on other benchmarks; I don’t think a failure to do so yet means we should withdraw, because these things take time, and sometimes our impatience leads us to forget that.
February 3rd, 2008 at 5:34 pmFred, I haven’t once seen you refute my “talking points,” as you say. All you’ve done is call me names and attack my beliefs, but nothing on the merits. You said you had a good example, and quoted what I said about 100 years. For a second, I thought we were going to have a rational discussion on that. Instead, you say we’re the ones just repeating what we hear, with nothing to back it up. Are you suggesting we HAVEN’T been in those countries a long time? I’m shocked you asked me to back up the statement that we’ve been in Korea for decades.
So, Fred, once again, I challenge you to bring up the merits. Your excuse for not doing so is that, “I never wanted to debate the merits with you. You gave yourself away when you came in here spouting right wing talking points like they were facts.” OK, then, tell me how these “right wing talking points” that I wrote are not true?
Of course, they aren’t talking points. I’m not a Republican; in fact, I’m a social liberal, and economic moderate, and yes, a hawk on foreign policy. But I’m an independent, and I’ve voted for Democrats like Bill Nelson. I just happen to believe that McCain is correct on the war, and I’m asking you to refute my points.
I don’t come on this blog to make myself feel better - I could go to Red State or wherever and do that. I come here to be challenged, and so far you’ve failed to do that.
February 3rd, 2008 at 5:39 pmI’m going to watch the game. I’ll be back to hear what Fred, or anyone else, has to say.
February 3rd, 2008 at 5:40 pmTP, that’s some “success” story you’ve got there: City destroyed, residents living in tents, no one allowed in or out. And woo-wee, how ’bout that buildin’ part! Three years later and still no running water in that “cleared and held” pile of rubble. Course, the “holding” ain’t going to well either.
Time for another round of Whack-a-mole!
February 3rd, 2008 at 5:40 pmI think I’ve come to terms with the fact that people on this blog will never acknowledge that the surge succeeded militarily.
Comment by thirdparty
Well then come to terms with this……..most of us here are not interested in discussing with you the merits of or the status of an event that should never have happened……..
of course you havent’ gotten that through your thick skull because you are not really here to discuss…..you are here to tell us what you think…..guess what…..I don’t care.
February 3rd, 2008 at 5:43 pmMcMaim should wait till Iraqi are dropping dead from depleted uranium before crowing like a decrepit rooster.
February 3rd, 2008 at 5:44 pmthirdpart
this is the title of the thread:
McCain Claims Iraq ‘Casualties Are Coming Down,’ But Casualties Actually Increased In January
It is not a discussion about whether it is true or not….it is a discussion about how absurd it is for mccane to be saying it……
it’s about the absurdity which evades you……you think there is merit in discussing whether the surge is succeeding or not……..
think………when have these people done anything successfullly…….look around.
February 3rd, 2008 at 5:47 pmOK, last post before the game, then I’ll be back.
Svlad,
The way I view this war is not based on whether it was wise to be there, or whether it was wise to botch the initial Fallujah effort, but whether it makes more sense to stay or leave. That’s essentially the question we’re facing. I don’t know how withdrawing improves Fallujah, or Mosul, or Baghdad, or anyplace else. And I realize the costs of war. But, as one article you posted states, Fallujah is safer. Keep in mind, as even a cursory glance of the account reveals, that was goal #1:
February 3rd, 2008 at 5:48 pmOK, Fred, I get it. You don’t want to debate the issue, you want to run away from it. You have a rebuttal to my points, but you don’t care what I think, so why bother? Fine. I can live with that. I attend a university where I regularly engage in the kind of intellectual back and forth I’m seeking. I was just hoping to see some new perspectives, but I guess the groupthink that pervades this blog would rather just keep their mouths shut regarding my points. Alright, but just scroll up to my point about why the attacks on McCain are silly, if you care to address that.
Game time!
February 3rd, 2008 at 5:50 pmAlright, but just scroll up to my point about why the attacks on McCain are silly, if you care to address that.
Game time!
Comment by thirdparty
silly, you wish to defend faluja, the surge, mccain. all of it for nothing, all of the millions of dead human beings and this is nothing but a young republican debate to you……..
I bestow upon you the new moniker of Frank M jr.
February 3rd, 2008 at 5:54 pmA little white phosphorus, cluster bombs, shock and awe, surge, torture depleted uranium…a few war crimes seem to working wonderfully according to some. If we could kill everybody but the Baptists then the world would indeed be a peaceful place. I suppose we could invade and occupy Mexico, or Canada. Why not, we are the world’s only super power? USA, USA, USA……
February 3rd, 2008 at 5:56 pmno…..god, son. How old are you. we didn’t invade and occupy those countries….we don’t have 160 thousand fighing troops and associated equipment at each of these locations do we? We are there at thier request. Do you need me to wipe your ass for you now…..this data is not a secret. If you are a college student you could have found these things out for youself………
It’s called bootstraps….surprised you don’t have a special set of your own. you pull yourself up by them and think for yourself instead of listening to someone else’s bullshit with and agenda…..
sorry I don’t get up in the morning to come and try to roll a republican(I know, you said you were and indy) over to being a democrat……..grow up and do your own thinking for a change.
Mccain is a war monger……why don’t you get that?
February 3rd, 2008 at 6:11 pmyeah third, you’re the first one to say any of these dumb things here, ever….it’s all new to me that mcain is a dumbasss and you don’t know it yet…….
your points are not new points……they are the same old points, same old points, same old points………same………old………..points……..
February 3rd, 2008 at 6:16 pmI don’t come on this blog to make myself feel better - I could go to Red State or wherever and do that.
Comment by thirdparty
I suggest that.
February 3rd, 2008 at 6:23 pmI come here to be challenged, and so far you’ve failed to do that.
Comment by thirdparty — February 3, 2008 @ 5:39 pm
well, you’re already intellectually and morally challenged; you don’t need this site for that.
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:11 pmout impatience?it’s not your legs being blown off, or your brain being rattled, unfortunately. you ahve no morals. the surge succeeded militarily? the surge was a sign and admittance of failure, to begin with. as are the current airstrikes and pullbacks of patrols. failure is not success, except in wingnutville.
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:15 pmJohn McCain was at one time a Senator who we could pretty much count on for a fair assessment of what was happening here and around the world, except for how the war in Iraq was going. This has changed dramatically over time to now about everything he has to say about the war in Iraq, has been proven FALSE, time and time again. Anyone can “Spin” it either way, but when FACTS are checked, it appears Senator McCain is ignoring them.
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:08 pmAnyone can “Spin†it either way, but when FACTS are checked, it appears Senator McCain is ignoring them.
Comment by lylepink — February 3, 2008 @ 8:08 pm
McCain is a cheap whore, without a position on anything important. he’s a worse flip-flopper than Romney, who should be named Weathervane. the Repyblicans have lost any pretense of a moral center, and have been handed an impossible job: recovering credibility after two stolen elections and the rein of terror of Bozo and Deadeye Dick. The only person elected president that will have a worse time than Obama or Hillary is any Republican, who will be accused of vote-stealing, caging and all the other Rovian tactics, as well as blamed for the inevitable collapse of the USA on the world market. A win for republicans in November will spell the end of the GOP forever, but will cost us our country.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:25 pmNEW YORK GIANTS WIN!!!!!
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:07 pmFor instance, on Korea, there was a time when we invaded and occupied. Now, yes, we are currently there at the behest of the government, but we may also be in Iraq years down the road at the behest of the Iraqi government. Time will tell.
I’m quite able to think for myself, thank you very much. I attend a college that is so anti-war that it has banned ROTC from campus. Please understand that I’m not looking for you to convert me or anything, but I enjoy the back-and-forth. I apologize for that, because I know it’s sadistic, but it’s the same reason why I come to the TP blog just for reading - to be challenged. It’s not an unreasonable source of information. Every now and then when I disagree with the commenters here, I’ll post a response. But, at the end of the day, all of our comments serve some purpose that’s probably not quite logical. We just do it, I guess.
To me, it’s irrelevant whether someone is a warmonger or not. After all, McCain initially resisted action on Bosnia. But I think he’s right on the war in Iraq, you guys know my view, and you can understand why I would support someone who has that view.
February 4th, 2008 at 12:18 amPretty snide, Fred. Look, I just hope, for your sake, that you aren’t this grouchy in real life. I’ve tried to have a civil debate (sure, occasionally I can’t resist a childish swipe), but you’ve not once been civil with me. Whatever.
February 4th, 2008 at 12:20 amTo me, it’s irrelevant whether someone is a warmonger or not. After all, McCain initially resisted action on Bosnia. But I think he’s right on the war in Iraq, you guys know my view, and you can understand why I would support someone who has that view.
Comment by thirdparty — February 4, 2008 @ 12:18 am
It’s IRRELEVANT whether someone is a WARMONGER? ROTFL, well we know what party you would have voted for in 1930s germany! TARD!
You aren’t CAPABLE of a CIVIL DEBATE, you’re a STUPID LITTLE FASCIST PIG! Nothing MORE, don’t FOOL YOURSELF!
February 4th, 2008 at 12:25 amPretty snide, Fred. Look, I just hope, for your sake, that you aren’t this grouchy in real life. I’ve tried to have a civil debate (sure, occasionally I can’t resist a childish swipe), but you’ve not once been civil with me. Whatever.
Comment by thirdparty — February 4, 2008 @ 12:20 am
STFU! you stupid little nazi PIG! You aren’t CAPABLE of a CIVIL DEBATE you MORON, don’t PRETEND you ARE! ;)
February 4th, 2008 at 12:25 amIf you want to bring the debate to that low level, of challenging someone’s morals, fine. I would suggest you have no morals because you don’t care what happens to Iraq once we withdraw. You don’t discuss or confront it. You just don’t care about whether violence gets worse if we leave, do you? What’s the answer, Lefty? Is it, as the Center for American Progress proposes, that we redeploy yet still continue counterterrorism measures inside Iraq?
And does our withdrawal somehow stop bombings, killings, maimings? Let’s get real here. There is no great “moral” option in Iraq, just a host of bad options. Take your pick.
February 4th, 2008 at 12:32 amWell, to clarify, I meant that in the “warmonger” sense - that is, it’s just a word with no clear meaning, since McCain has at times been less interventionist than many liberals were in the 1990s. So, to me, it’s besides the point. I’m sorry you disagree.
That said, I think it’s funny how you ATTACK ME, considering that YOU have never really once made a substantive point on this blog. You just SHOUT about how Republicans are idiots, fasciStS, etc. LOL, ok, it reminds me of that Billy Madison line…
“Mr. Madison, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.”
February 4th, 2008 at 12:35 amYou see in McCain’s world, just as the SurgeTM didn’t start until June 2007, it actually ended in December. Don’t talk to him about any other time-frames!
February 4th, 2008 at 12:39 am“For instance, on Korea, there was a time when we invaded and occupied. Now, yes, we are currently there at the behest of the government, ”
I thought US involvement in Korea was due to the invasion of South Korea by North Korea, not America.
February 4th, 2008 at 12:50 amThat’s absolutely right. To me, though, while you can argue that one occupation is more moral than another, at the end of the day it’s a question of does that government support us being there/request our presence.
February 4th, 2008 at 12:57 am“it’s a question of does that government support us being there/request our presence.”
Or at least a question of: do the people that said government represent want us there?
I have some issues about who the Maliki government is representing, the needs of the Iraqi people, or of just themselves.
February 4th, 2008 at 1:23 amThat’s a fair point. It’s hard to make a case that Iraq is more than a borderline-functioning democracy right now, and it’s hard to glean from the political muddle whether it is representing the state’s interests. But, like the US, they are not a direct democracy, and often what polls well is not adopted as policy. In the US, opposition to gay marriage polls well, as does opposition to the war. That doesn’t necessarily translate to policy. By the way, I think you would find mixed polling, for example, in Japan on whether US troops should remain stationed there.
February 4th, 2008 at 1:39 amSo, we see that not only has the surge worked in helping to bring about the defeat Al Qaeda in Iraq, we also see that withdrawing too quickly before the job is done will only lead to a resurgence of Al Qaeda and more innocent Iraqis killed.
Comment by Exley — February 3, 2008 @ 3:14 pm
February 4th, 2008 at 2:38 amIt’s called “quagmire”, Exley. It’s a very shitty position to be in militarily. You accomplish nothing by being there and if you leave, everything you have done is destroyed. You’re pinned, forced to sit and keep piling up your losses. Great. Failure is the new success in reichworld. Glad to see you in the middle of it, idiot.
regressives do love the body count.
February 4th, 2008 at 8:57 amIs it, as the Center for American Progress proposes, that we redeploy yet still continue counterterrorism measures inside Iraq?
Comment by thirdparty
I think this answers all of my questions about who this person might be….just another troll…….seems really obvious to me as I read back through the nonsense that was posted by him/her
February 4th, 2008 at 9:02 am“For instance, on Korea, there was a time when we invaded and occupied. Now, yes, we are currently there at the behest of the government, â€
Comment by thirdparty
see like this little bit of misinformation…..for all except those who want to make bush look better……we have never invaded a country and occupied when we were not attacked except under g bush……it’s new, it’s going to cause us problems, just you wait and see.
February 4th, 2008 at 9:06 amSunshine, lollipops and rainbows. That McCain is such a straight shootin’, glass-half-full kinda guy. Sorta fella ya’d wanna sit ‘n’ have a beer with, ye know?
‘You know my friends, they don’t leave chocolates on the pillow atr the Hanoi Hilton’.
February 4th, 2008 at 9:41 amGive this guy the hook.
“By the way, I think you would find mixed polling, for example, in Japan on whether US troops should remain stationed there.”
But how much would that change if the US was conducting combat operations outside of the control of the Japanese government, against Japanese insurgents?
February 4th, 2008 at 10:29 amComment by RickS
dammit rick, you always have to add facts to their spiel to mess them up….they hate that…..
February 4th, 2008 at 1:13 pmWhat if we do end up with another war-hungry republican like McCain? Would Americans opt to move to Canada in order to avoid his proposed “100 Years War?†I heard Canada was ramping up its immigration centers in expectation of another wave of “Blue Staters†in the event of a Republican victory: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/index.asp
February 5th, 2008 at 12:39 amIn the independent film “Blue State,†the protagonist does exactly that. He decides to flee the United States after another republican victory in 2004, due to strong liberal ideals: http://www.bluestatemovie.com