Snow Reveals ‘80 Percent’ Of Bush’s Advisers Opposed Iraq Surge
Snow Reveals ‘80 Percent’ Of Bush’s Advisers Opposed Iraq Surge
When announcing the Iraq “surge” last January, President Bush emphasized that he and his advisers led a “comprehensive” review of past mistakes in Iraq, concluding that Iraq needed 30,000 more U.S. troops:
[M]y national security team, military commanders, and diplomats conducted a comprehensive review. … And one message came through loud and clear: Failure in Iraq would be a disaster for the United States. Our military commanders reviewed the new Iraqi plan to ensure that it addressed these mistakes. They report that it does. They also report that this plan can work.
Bush’s assertions were at best disingenuous, as several of his advisers opposed the surge. Former Multi-national Force Commander Gen. George Casey said “more is not necessarily better.” Again, in January 2007, Casey said a “surge” could be “counterproductive.” But Bush canned Casey, claiming he “had become more fixated on withdrawal than victory.”
The Joint Chiefs of Staff as well as conservative members of Congress also recognized the futility of increasing troop levels.
Yesterday, in a speech in California, former White House Press Secretary Tony Snow revealed the extent to which Bush ignored his advisers when deciding whether to implement the Iraq “surge” in January 2007:
He praised Bush for increasing U.S. troop levels in Iraq despite widespread unpopularity for the war at home and abroad. He said 80 percent of Bush’s advisers opposed last year’s military surge in the nation, which still faces an uncertain future.
“Everybody was telling him, ‘You’re crazy, don’t do this,’” Snow said. “You get the chills. He’s really unafraid to take the hits if he thinks he’s doing the right thing.”
Some Bush’s advisers are still wary of Iraq’s future. Last month, Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Middle Eastern Affairs Mark Kimmitt said the surge is unlikely to succeed. “If I had to put a number to it, maybe it’s three in 10, maybe it’s 50-50, if we play our cards right,” he said.
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80 % opposed Iraq surge.
yeah, right. And I’m the King of Romania too.
February 11th, 2008 at 10:39 amWhy does President George W. Bush hate America?
February 11th, 2008 at 10:40 am‘80 Percent’ Of Bush’s Advisers Opposed Iraq Surge…
And, as it turns out, they were wrong.
February 11th, 2008 at 10:41 am“Everybody was telling him, ‘You’re crazy, don’t do this,’†Snow said. “You get the chills. He’s really unafraid to take the hits if he thinks he’s doing the right thing.â€
wow… so the snowjob thought it was brave of duby to ignore
the professionals?
imagine that…
February 11th, 2008 at 10:41 amdon’t even bother…
February 11th, 2008 at 10:43 amhead into brick wall…
it doesn’t matter…
everybody knows he’s WRONG.
“Don’t confuse me with facts and arbitrary opinions, just say yes, mr pretzeldent, and we’ll be done here.”
February 11th, 2008 at 10:43 amsnowjob strikes again with more FUZZY MATH….
February 11th, 2008 at 10:44 amGreat! The surge provided the ‘window of opportunity’ for the Iraqi government to do practically nothing to unify that country.
How can you call this success???????????????????????????
February 11th, 2008 at 10:44 am“… And one message came through loud and clear: Failure in Iraq would be a disaster for the United States.”
Is that so? The failure in Iraq is a disaster for George Bush and Dick Cheney. George Bush and Dick Cheney are not the United States.
The real disaster for the United States was the 2000 election.
February 11th, 2008 at 10:45 am‘80 Percent’ Of Bush’s Advisers Opposed Iraq Surge…
And they were right. There has been no reconciliation, hence, failure.
February 11th, 2008 at 10:49 amOne oil man, or one fuzzy neocon wearing his power tie, or one Cheney can trump all sorts of policy thinkers!
Just guessing though.
February 11th, 2008 at 10:49 amWhy is it that all of these Bushies wait until months or years after the fact to tell the truth?
February 11th, 2008 at 10:51 amBut Bush canned Casey, claiming he “had become more fixated on withdrawal than victory.â€
No, Bush canned Casey because he had become more fixated on reality than on neo-con fantasy.
February 11th, 2008 at 10:52 am“He’s really unafraid to take the hits if he thinks he’s doing the right thing.â€
Yeah! It was so brave of Bush, in his second term with a compliant Congress and a cheerleading press to send an extra 30,000 inadequately equipped troops to waste their time getting shot and and blown up on behalf of neocon fantasists, war profiteers and Bush’s own hard-on for playing the tough-guy whilst he lounges around the White House and continues to ake more vacations than any president in history.
February 11th, 2008 at 10:57 amWhy is it that all of these Bushies wait until months or years after the fact to tell the truth?
Comment by shoeless — February 11, 2008 @ 10:51 am
i think snowjob slipped up…
February 11th, 2008 at 10:58 amhe was extolling duby’s virtues in ignoring 80% of his advisors…
snowjob thinks that is exciting… gives him “the chills”…
woooh!
“You get the chills. He’s really unafraid to take the hits if he thinks he’s doing the right thing.â€
He’s not afraid to take the hits…? Of Course he’s not ’cause he’s not taking them, our country’s young men and women in uniform and their families ARE!
And if he “Thinks he’s doing the right thing?” When the Phuck did Chimpy start thinking?
February 11th, 2008 at 10:58 am‘80 Percent’ Of Bush’s Advisers Opposed Iraq Surge…
And, as it turns out, they were wrong.
Comment by Exley — February 11, 2008 @ 10:41 am
February 11th, 2008 at 10:58 amClaims the Chimpy jock sniffing twit , who have all been 0-for-7 years , along with their imbecilic “fearless leader”…….
Bush has been 100% wrong on nearly every issue for 7+ years.
That’s his record, & no amount of ‘polishing’ or ‘enhancing’ by his minions will change that.
Or, as he so eloquently put it to Chris, ’smirk’ Wallace, ‘history takes a long time’.
February 11th, 2008 at 10:59 amYeah…The surge is real failure:
From the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - Integrated Regional Information Networks (IRIN)
Iraq: Violence-related deaths drop ‘remarkably’, say authorities and UN
BAGHDAD, 21 October 2007 (IRIN) - Iraqis are breathing a sigh of relief as violence in their war-torn country is ebbing and the number of violence-related victims has dropped sharply since the beginning of this year, according to statistics compiled by the country’s interior, defence and health ministries.
“Violence-related deaths in September dropped remarkably to levels not seen in more than a year as the number [of violence-related deaths] stood at 290 while in September 2006 the number was about 1,400,†Adel Muhsin, the health ministry’s inspector-general, told IRIN in a phone interview.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:00 am“Everybody was telling him, ‘You’re crazy, don’t do this,’†Snow said.
- - Tony, paraphrased or not, Bush is surrounded by sycophants who wouldn’t dare tell him anything he doesn’t want to hear. Whadda crock of revisionist hero-making this is.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:00 amOr, as he so eloquently put it to Chris, ’smirk’ Wallace, ‘history takes a long time’.
Comment by Zimzone — February 11, 2008 @ 10:59 am
February 11th, 2008 at 11:00 amHow long does it take to realize someone has stepped onto a pile of dog ‘leftovers’?
Comment by Exley — February 11, 2008 @ 11:00 am
Thanks for giving us an ‘update’ of LAST YEAR , Excrement………
February 11th, 2008 at 11:01 amAs I said, those opposing the surge were 100% wrong:
Baghdadis enjoy the moment
Financial Times
By Steve Negus in Cairo and an Iraqi correspondent in Baghdad
Published: December 16 2007
Baghdad’s Shurja market is open for business.
The capital’s central commercial district, which earlier this year was virtually shut down by repeated car bombings and sniper fire, is now thronging with residents doing last-minute shopping before this week’s Eid holiday.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:02 am“For six months, not a day passed without my seeing a body near my shop,†says Qassem, who sells curtains. “But today, business is good and security is good and, God willing, things will get even better.â€
Six months after the “surge†of US troops finished deploying into Baghdad, Iraq’s capital is breathing again.
BAGHDAD, 21 October 2007 (IRIN
- - Umm, Ex, four months later your story is not quite so relevant. Much like your president-for-now.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:02 amExley,
4 months equates to 4 years in our Iraq invasion.
Oh, & you forgot to mention that ‘07 was the deadliest year of the invasion to date…
February 11th, 2008 at 11:02 amAnd good morning to you also, Exley.
Reagardless of the reduction in violence, the stated reason for the surge hasn’t materialized, so it’s a failure.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:03 amComment by Exley — February 11, 2008 @ 11:02 am
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
@ Your lameness ; the “Financial Times” ?
You certainly are a credit to ass-kissers the world over , Excrement………
February 11th, 2008 at 11:03 amIt’s like saying “we were going to Iraq to cultivate flowers - but since there aren’t any, we still think our efforts at weeding have been a great success.”
February 11th, 2008 at 11:06 amTimes of London
“By any measure, the US-led surge has been little short of a triumph. The number of American military fatalities is reduced sharply, as is the carnage of Iraqi civilians, Baghdad as a city is functioning again, oil output is above where it stood in March 2003 but at a far stronger price per barrel and, the acid test, many of those who fled to Syria and Jordan are today returning home…
[T]he country will now have the time to establish itself. A year ago it seemed as if American forces would have been withdrawn in ignominious fashion either well before the end of the Bush Administration or, at best, days after the next president came to office. This will not now happen. The self-evident success of the surge has obliged the Democrats to start talking about almost anything else and the calls to cut and run have abated. If the US Army remains in Iraq in strength, continuing on its present path, then deals on a constitution and the division of oil revenues between provinces will be realised.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/ tol/ comment/ columnists/ tim_hames/ article3059926.ece
February 11th, 2008 at 11:07 am“i think snowjob slipped up…
he was extolling duby’s virtues in ignoring 80% of his advisors…”
Comment by katy — February 11, 2008 @ 10:58 am
I’m not so sure he slipped up, I’m thinking that they(the Bushies)are in a full court press to create some kind of Legacy here by talking about the Chimps ability to go against the grain as if that is some “great “quality because he’s so right all the time.
More of their backwards reasoning like the other day when chimpy said that if Hillary or Obama were elected it would be bad for our ecconomy and mean war for the US.
As if his Residency didn’t cause those very things. It’s like through the looking glass stuff…
That gives me chills!
February 11th, 2008 at 11:07 amExiled Iraqis Too Scared to Return Home Despite Propaganda Push
by Patrick Cockburn
To show that Iraq was safe enough for the two million Iraqi refugees in Syria and Jordan to return, the Iraqi government organised a bus convoy last November from Damascus to Baghdad carrying 800 Iraqis home for free.
As a propaganda exercise designed to show that the Iraqi government was restoring peace, it never quite worked…
There has been no mass return of the two million Iraqis who fled to Syria and Jordan or a further 2.4 million refugees who left their homes within Iraq. The latest figures from the UN High Commission for Refugees show that, on the contrary, the number of people entering Syria from Iraq was 1,200 a day in late January “while an average of 700 are going back to Iraq from Syriaâ€.
The reasons people are not going back, despite new stringent visa regulations in Syria, are that they know Baghdad is very dangerous, the chances of making a living are small and there is a continuing lack of electricity and water.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/02/11/6973/
February 11th, 2008 at 11:10 amMore evidence of the stunning success of the surge:
Al-Qaeda leaders admit: ‘We are in crisis. There is panic and fear’
Times of London
Martin Fletcher in Baghdad
Feb. 11, 2008
Al-Qaeda in Iraq faces an “extraordinary crisisâ€. Last year’s mass defection of ordinary Sunnis from al-Qaeda to the US military “created panic, fear and the unwillingness to fightâ€. The terrorist group’s security structure suffered “total collapseâ€.
These are the words not of al-Qaeda’s enemies but of one of its own leaders in Anbar province — once the group’s stronghold. They were set down last summer in a 39-page letter seized during a US raid on an al-Qaeda base near Samarra in November.
The US military released extracts from that letter yesterday along with a second seized in another November raid that is almost as startling.
That second document is a bitter 16-page testament written last October by a local al-Qaeda leader near Balad, north of Baghdad. “I am Abu-Tariq, emir of the al-Layin and al-Mashahdah sector,†the author begins. He goes on to describe how his force of 600 shrank to fewer than 20.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/ tol/ news/ world/ iraq/ article3346386.ece
February 11th, 2008 at 11:10 amIn all matters, Bush Knows Best. Because God speaks directly to him.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:11 amExperts - he don’t need no stinking human experts. He’s got the ultimate expert whispering in his ear. Or something.
By Exley’s logic, as long as we stay in Baghdad, providing security, then we are successful.
For how long? How many more months will the Madhi militia stand down?
How many months do American taxpayers shell out $300.00 a month per man to arm and supply Sunni Awakening councils?
How many, Exley?
February 11th, 2008 at 11:11 amarticle posted by Exley
A little out of date, there, Exley. I notice the article doesn’t say there has been any political reconciliation. Different day, same story.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:11 amIt goes to show that democracy means little in the Whitehouse. An overwhelming majority told to stuff it. And then pour on the lies to skew the media reporting.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:12 amDemocracy means nothing. Control of the system is everything. And making it all up is a means to get there.
The lies just never end.
It’s time that Congress start to retake their rightful position of representing their people impeach bush, cheney and muscasey just for starters.
More evidence of the stunning success of the surge:
Except for the niggling fact that the stated reason for the surge hasn’t materialized, a glowing success!
February 11th, 2008 at 11:13 amAnd has water and electricity returned to pre-invasion levels yet? Not exactly a success story there…
February 11th, 2008 at 11:15 amI’m a tad confused here.
Is this a step to Snow writting a tell-all book ?
Or do I take it right that since they have [falsely] painted the surge as a glowing success, and Shrub wanted the surge, to paint Shrub as the lone bastion of wisdom ?
February 11th, 2008 at 11:16 amTroll Exley might not realize that the two female suicide bombers who killed 71 people two weeks ago blew themselves up near the pet shops in Shorja Market. Yeah, Baghdad is a bastion of calm these days. Troll Exley also fails to point out all of the political reconcilliations that have happened thanks to the surge. What, they haven’t reconciled anything…you mean…oh, nevermind. Yeah, that six month surge is going great!
February 11th, 2008 at 11:17 am#34,
RUCerious, Given what has happened to Al Qaeda in Iraq, I would imagine that the Mahdi’s Army will continue to behave itself for quite a while. Al Sadr does not want happening to him what is happening to AQI.
As for how long we need to be there, we already see signs of the type of progress in the political process (the reverse of the de-Baathification) and in the development of the Iraqi military that will allow us to begin to stand down.
I find it remarkable, however, that people here do not see the dramatic decrease in US military and Iraqi civilian deaths as a postive result in and of itself of the surge.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:18 amHe said 80 percent of Bush’s advisers opposed last year’s military surge in the nation, which still faces an uncertain future.
“Everybody was telling him, ‘You’re crazy, don’t do this,’†Snow said. “You get the chills. He’s really unafraid to take the hits if he thinks he’s doing the right thing.â€
Yet
When announcing the Iraq “surge†last January, President Bush emphasized that he and his advisers led a “comprehensive†review of past mistakes in Iraq, concluding that Iraq needed 30,000 more U.S. troops:
1) Where those 20% similar to the “coalition of the willing?”
February 11th, 2008 at 11:19 am2) No, Bush is not willing to take a “hit”. The brave men and women are taking, and will continue to take the “hit”. Statements like this really pi$$ me off!
3) Exley, I know you are a supporter of the illegal occupation (which is fine), but you must admit that 2007 for the year saw an increase in fatalities (not including the ones that never officially died “in Iraq), and the surge started last February. Why the sudden 180? Wasn’t it you that felt our troops should come home, that you couldn’t lead the horse to the “democracy” water?
Assuming the surge began in June 07 when it was fully implemented, it was supposed to have a six month duration.
We are now in month 8, with Petraeus saying the drawdown back to pre-surge levels that was supposed to happen this summer will need to be delayed.
Stall, delay, cough, sneeze, distract, delay, stall, rinse and repeat.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:19 amExley’s wearing his rose-colored Bush goggles again. It makes it easier for him, because the tinted lens blocks out the color of blood.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:20 amThis just shows what a great leader this President is!!
Bravo George Bush!
February 11th, 2008 at 11:20 am39 Comment by MapleStreet — February 11, 2008 @ 11:16 am
The latter is my guess… ;)
February 11th, 2008 at 11:21 amAs for how long we need to be there, we already see signs of the type of progress in the political process (the reverse of the de-Baathification) and in the development of the Iraqi military that will allow us to begin to stand down.
I find it remarkable, however, that people here do not see the dramatic decrease in US military and Iraqi civilian deaths as a postive result in and of itself of the surge.
You didn’t answer the question. How long?
What signs>? They passed one law that most Sunnis saw as a way to identify themselves for extermination.
How Long????
Yeah, and it’s great that the violence is down based on our additional 30,000 troops deployed in Baghdad.
For How Long, dammit, answer the question!
February 11th, 2008 at 11:22 amThat gives me chills!
Comment by TheRadicalRightisRadicallyWrong @ 11:07 am
me too!
and i see your point, and agree… but i still think snow was mistaken
that his words would be turned around to point out the HUGE mistake…
he was bragging about 80%, but what that meant actually, is that
dubya is a stubborn idiot…
but we all know that… thanks for verifying, tony!
February 11th, 2008 at 11:23 amDo the trolls even know that keeping our military presence at this level will destroy our capability to react to any other necessity?
How Long???
February 11th, 2008 at 11:24 amSnow just wishes he could get a manly cuddle from the chymp like McCain did.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:24 am“I find it remarkable, however, that people here do not see the dramatic decrease in US military and Iraqi civilian deaths as a postive result in and of itself of the surge.”
Comment by Exley
So, we should only concern ourselves with the weeding, and not the planting?
The weeding is going great - but the planting?
Exley: The garden looks great!
Barfly: Nothing’s growing!
Exley: But you can barely see any weeds!
February 11th, 2008 at 11:25 amI find it remarkable, however, that people here do not see the dramatic decrease in US military and Iraqi civilian deaths as a postive result in and of itself of the surge. -Exley
I find it remarkable that you can only quote foreign sources for your happy talk.
Why has the Iraq invasion been banned from MSM TV?
Why has on political reconciliation been reached?
Why is everyone killed either AQ or Iranian?
Why was ‘07 the deadliest year of the invasion?
And DON’T count As Sadr out yet…he’s the lynchpin here.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:26 amWhy does President George W. Bush hate America?
Comment by A Patriot Acting — February 11, 2008 @ 10:40 am
More importantly, in this case, why does he hate Iraq? Why does he think so low of its families who are being torn apart, the children being maimed and murdered? Say, aren’t Republicans “pro-family”?
February 11th, 2008 at 11:26 am“You get the chills. He’s really unafraid to take the hits if he thinks he’s doing the right thing.â€
I get the chills because he goes against the best judgement and advice of his military leaders and other advisors.
I get the chills because this president cares more for his “gut” than for rational, fact based advice.
I get the chills watching people like Tony Snow cum all over themselves every time Dubya takes a break. “Isn’t he majestic?”
Makes me sick. People like Tony Snow must have HUGE man-crushes on Dubya. Makes you wonder what’s going through their minds during meetings with him. I am just waiting for Snow to break down and fellate Bush right there on prime time TV.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:27 amSay, aren’t Republicans “pro-family�
Comment by McWars — February 11, 2008 @ 11:26 am
Usually only until after birth.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:27 amPersonally, I believe the surge has been more successful than many here would care to admit. And I also feel that the odds for success are better than 30 or 50%. But, even if our chances for securing Iraq are only 30%, it is a better alternative then abandoning Iraq to chaos and an even more uncertain future.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — February 11, 2008 @ 11:21 am
Who the hell are you , and especially the piece of shit Chimpy , Excrement , John Kerry the moron , goof_golly and the rest of you Shrub nut hugging morons , to play with people’s lives at any level ?
Who are you to decide Iraq’s future ?
Who gives a damn what any of you Chimpy leg humpers wants or believes ; you still blindly and stupidly back the worst president in US history , and every one of you imbeciles prattles on like you view yourselves as Socrates and Plato reincarnated.
You’re all empty-headed mental furballs who should be beaten with shovels and shipped the hell out of the US…….
February 11th, 2008 at 11:28 am“Rebuilding German and Japan after WWII was expensive too. But it was worth it.”
Comment by CaptainMantastic
Did we also invade those countries under false pretenses?
False comparison.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:30 amRebuilding German and Japan after WWII was expensive too. But it was worth it.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — February 11, 2008 @ 11:29 am
I’m not even going to reply to this obvious strawman…
February 11th, 2008 at 11:33 amnew thread:
11 killed during Gates’s visit to Iraq.
Eleven people were killed and 30 were wounded as two car bombs exploded in southern Baghdad today. Reuters notes that the attacks came as Defense Secretary Robert Gates “was concluding a trip to Baghdad during which he praised the improved security in the country and said al Qaeda had been routed.â€
the surge keeps on working!
February 11th, 2008 at 11:33 amYou’re all empty-headed mental furballs who should be beaten with shovels and shipped the hell out of the US…….
Comment by MCMetal — February 11, 2008 @ 11:28 am
People might take you more seriously, it you didn’t sound insane.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — February 11, 2008 @ 11:30 am
Yeah , because repeating White House rhetoric/wrong wingnut talking head bullshit is a sure sign of being a genuine pillar of mental stability ; not to mention undying love and devotion of a life-long failure and moron who has proven to be the worst president in US history.
Retarded garden slugs are more intelligent than yourself and the rest of the Chimpy Adoration Brigade here , Crapstain ManPlastic………
February 11th, 2008 at 11:34 amHe’s really unafraid to take the hits if he thinks he’s doing the right thing.
It’s easy for a psychopath to be unafraid with other people’s lives.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:34 amCapt.ManFetish wonders if there is any consideration being given the consequences of the Iraqi people if we leave.
You know what’s really funny (not in a Ha Ha way) about the dipshits that support this war and this administration is, they were to stupid to ask that very same question before the invasion of a country that had NOTHING to do with 9-11 or to ask the very same question regarding what would happen if we took the Majority of our troops out of the country that had EVERYTHING to do with 9-11.
I’m so sick of their idoiocy that I don’t even address them any more. They are just to stupid to talk too.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:34 amHey “CaptainMantastic” at #57…. Why should American blood be shed for Iraq? How many Americans are you willing to sacrifice for a 30% chance at “success” (whatever that is supposed to be)?
Look at it this way: How many Americans must die just so that Iraq can have a full-blown civil war? That is exactly what’s going to happen as soon as we pull our troops out. They’re fighting it now, but it will begin in earnest once we’re out of their way.
Given the way that we were “greeted” as “liberators” by the Iraqi people, and given that they didn’t lift a finger to help themselves during Saddam’s rule, why should any more Americans die for them?
Oh and don’t give me the silly comparison with Japan and Germany. The situation was entirely different after WWII than it is in Iraq today. The Marshall Plan was nothing like the “reconstruction” plan for Iraq. The whole Iraq debacle was a failure from the start and no amount of historical revision will change that.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:35 amWho the hell are you , and especially the piece of shit Chimpy , Excrement , John Kerry the moron , goof_golly and the rest of you Shrub nut hugging morons , to play with people’s lives at any level ?
Who are you to decide Iraq’s future ?
Who gives a damn what any of you Chimpy leg humpers wants or believes ; you still blindly and stupidly back the worst president in US history , and every one of you imbeciles prattles on like you view yourselves as Socrates and Plato reincarnated.
You’re all empty-headed mental furballs who should be beaten with shovels and shipped the hell out of the US…….
Comment by MCMetal — February 11, 2008 @ 11:28 am
Quite true. On the other hand, Exley showed an article from the London Times about the surge.
Here is one more from the London Times, supporting Exley:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article387374.ece
February 11th, 2008 at 11:35 amI have a thirteen year old nephew. He is already worried about getting drafted in five years and being shipped out to Iraq/Iran/where ever.
How long, trolls???
February 11th, 2008 at 11:36 amgarden slugs…
February 11th, 2008 at 11:36 amwould that it were as easy to poor salt on the troolls…
Comment by 2MillionLightYearsToAndromeda — February 11, 2008 @ 11:10 am
You can’t get trolls to do anything but what they do…lie to cover up the enormous amount of breathtaking-in-scope lies and inadequacies this admin spews forth daily.
Babe, it’s like pissing in the wind.
GOP and those who continue to support the lies are worse than pond scum, worse than any super virus, worse than bird flu. They are trying to ensure the death of the US as we know it. Let’s hope they don’t succeed. Few people buy into their bull$hit any longer. Thankfully!
February 11th, 2008 at 11:37 amYears ago, just out of college and not knowing what I’d do with my life, I was an electronics/appliance sales person. One coworker was a recovering alcoholic, working the program, but not working it well, because he thought he was better than the program, only real losers needed a 12-step group. Sure, he might have been successful in not-drinking, but he was effing up miserably in his job. He’d sell items he knew weren’t in stock, so he could try to bait and switch up to better items…that weren;t in stock, either. He’d try to convince people they needed 700 dollar 3 foot high 3-way speakers with 10-inch woofers as rear-surround speakers. And if his numbers were down, he’d try to “rearrange” items on the sales floor and make such a mess, someone who’d know how to fix the mess (oftentimes, me) would be off the sales floor for hours, losing commission, to fix his mistakes. I could go on, but the main crux was this - he never admitted to being wrong, and he wore his sobriety like a badge of honor. He bragged about it. Because he fancied himself a frustrated musician, I suspect his sponsor tried to make his addiction relative by mentioning big-shot musicians, like Clapton & Keith Richards, who were addicts. Instead of taking away the obvious lesson - addiction can happen to anyone - what he took away from it was “Wow, I’m just like Clapton & Keith Richards.”
I often think about this bozo when I think about Bush. Both of them think they’re better than other people, certainly smarter than the other people they work with, and certainly better than other alcoholics who are so weak they need a program. Both of them love to trick people who are relying on them to be straight-shooters and professionals. Both of them like to compare themselves to heroes, this yob with Clapton, Bush with Lincoln. And both of them are completely unawares or uncaring of the destruction they leave in their wake, because someone else always has to clean up after them.
The big difference of course is that, to my knowledge, the guy I used to workwith was never responsible for the deaths of thousands. But I could be wrong.
That Bush would so casually ignore the advice of his inner circle will hopefully be used against him when/if he;s finally held accountable for his war atrocities.
And while I hope and pray for peace all over the world, I suspect the exleys of the world are in for a rude awakening the moment the inner-mandated cease-fire in Iraq is lifted. That most of the fighters have decidedto bide their time has nothing to do with the surge working. And the fact that the political reconciliation is no where close to beginning to happen is proof that this is a waiting game for more violence to explode. Don’t gloat that the surge is working; pray that cooler heads will continue to prevail.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:37 amComment by slappy magoo — February 11, 2008 @ 11:37 am
I thought at first you were talking about Exley. ;)
February 11th, 2008 at 11:40 amForget the surge and whether it’s working or not for a minute, look at the process by which Bush arrives at a “decision”. He ignores 80% of his own advisors and does what he feels is the right thing? Is that the method of a rational decision maker or of a blind faith zealot?
Apply that process to any other decision, say dropping a nuclear bomb on Afghanistan to finally get Osama. I would say, and probably at least 80% of Bush’s advisors would say that was a bad idea. But if Georgie doesn’t advice and goes with his gut, do the sycophants still admire his tenacity?
February 11th, 2008 at 11:40 amPersonally, I believe the surge has been more successful than many here would care to admit. And I also feel that the odds for success are better than 30 or 50%. But, even if our chances for securing Iraq are only 30%, it is a better alternative then abandoning Iraq to chaos and an even more uncertain future.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — February 11, 2008 @ 11:21 am
Successful, eh? What exactly is success this week? I have lost track of what success means as it changes weekly.
Anyone know what success is this week? What was it last week? Or the week before?
February 11th, 2008 at 11:41 amRebuilding German and Japan after WWII was expensive too. But it was worth it.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — February 11, 2008 @ 11:29 am
But we HAVEN’T “rebuilt” Iraq. HAVE WE?
And we REALLY DON’T PLAN TO.
Nor do we have money budgeted to do so.
So, you LIE again.
Average of 2 hours of electricity per day, with summer temps of 120 degrees coming SOON.
If I was an Iraqi into my FIFTH summer like this, I would attack EVERY soldier I was able to.
And I would be JUSTIFIED in doing so to the OCCUPIERS.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:42 amTell your nephew that he’ll be okay, as long as there is a republican in the white house.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — February 11, 2008 @ 11:42 am
Spoken like a true coward, masturbastic… always ready to salute SOMEONE else’s death…
February 11th, 2008 at 11:44 am“…that his words would be turned around …”
Comment by katy — February 11, 2008 @ 11:23 am
I hear you and I agree but the problem is, turned around by who? The stenographers in the MSM? They’ll just repeat the mantra issued by Snowjob and the WH. Keith Olbermann is the only one that might point out the lunacy of the statement but it certainly won’t be widely disseminated.
I keep hoping we’ll get a modern Woodward and Berstien and the rest of the press will start to do their job again. *sigh*…
February 11th, 2008 at 11:45 amI argue that continuing the effort makes more sense today, then abandoning the effort, and the Iraqi people, to a more uncertain future.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — February 11, 2008 @ 11:40 am
The only “certainty” that exists in the future , is that anything will turn to shit , if it involves a Republican , especially Chimpy.
He is a life-long failure and a moron , and how anyone including yourself , can advocate the loss of American lives because of Chimpy’s lies leading to “breaking” Iraq , is reprehensible , unconscionable and downright despicable ; you should be ashamed of yourself.
Our military is not a friggin’ toy to be played with ; especially not by a mindless , ill-mannered bore and mentally incompetent imbecile…….
February 11th, 2008 at 11:46 amHe’s really unafraid to take the hits if he thinks he’s doing the right thing.â€
Yeah, like Hitler.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:46 am“People might take you more seriously, it you didn’t sound insane”.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — February 11, 2008 @ 11:30 am
What’s insane is the mindset of these confused trolls who just can’t accept that NO POLITICAL RECONCILIATION means that the ONLY reasons that they originally used to justify the surge haven’t been realized. We have a talented and dedicated army which has done an outstanding job coupled with the continued use of air power over men on the ground that has aided in holding down US casualties, not to mention al-Sadr’s cease fire. It is ironic, however that the switch to heavier reliance on air power followed a heavier number of Iraqi civilian deaths. This said, we have been holding our own militarily without ANYTHING being done politically. Hence, the surge is a failure as far as accomplishing what it was intended to do. True insanity involves doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. These trolls would have us remain in Iraq indefinitely at the expense of the readiness of our army, billions of dollars waisted, more lives lost with still no poltical advances on the horizon. Hang it up trolls, no one here is buying your propoganda. You can extoll military successes all day but at the end of the day the surge has not worked.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:47 amHow long, trolls???
Comment by RUCerious — February 11, 2008 @ 11:36 am
As long as it takes. BTW, it is not conservatives that are clammering for the draft. Tell your nephew that he’ll be okay, as long as there is a republican in the white house.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — February 11, 2008 @ 11:42 am
February 11th, 2008 at 11:47 amTell that to one of the family members of the over 4,000 American troops that have lost their lives in a war based upon nothing ; I hope they break your jaw……….
As long as it takes…
I knew it.
And where do we get the new, shiny bright army to accomplish this, as our current one is just about broken???
February 11th, 2008 at 11:47 amIt’s easy for a psychopath to be unafraid with other people’s lives.
Comment by Zooey — February 11, 2008 @ 11:34 am
Spot on!
Is there such a plea, “by reason of insanity” applicable to international trials?
February 11th, 2008 at 11:48 amWho needs to listen to “the people”? Who needs to listen to advisers and experts?
None of that matters when it’s Government by The Chimp, of The Chimp, for The Chimp.
Just saying . . .
February 11th, 2008 at 11:48 am…”only until after birth….”
NO truer words ever spoken regarding repugs
February 11th, 2008 at 11:48 amoh that’s just so freaking convenient for you and your godd*man keyboard created sanctimonious argument. Get off your couch, get on the good foot and pitch in for your cause.
“you break it you buy”
… *speechless*
February 11th, 2008 at 11:49 ambarfly. Even if you disagree with invading Iraq, can you see how we became responsible for it? If you break it, you buy it.
“WE” didn”t break it.
Neither did the SOLDIERS in Iraq, DYING for the LIES of TRAITOR Bush.
Osama is STILL FREE, but the Bushes and Bin Ladens are buddies.
TRAITOR Bush BROKE Iraq.
He needs to go FIGHT in Iraq.
Let HIS blood spill on the battlefield, and get HIS body blown up.
There would be NO LOSS to the USA.
Just another piece of unamerikkkan TRAITOR trash EVIL gone
February 11th, 2008 at 11:49 amhome to its MASTER Satan.
Thank you, Exley, for posting that link proving that the surge led to the political reconciliation or which it was designed.
–What? There was no political reconciliation?
But - but — I thought you said the surge was a success???
Now I’m all confused.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:50 am“barfly. Even if you disagree with invading Iraq, can you see how we became responsible for it? If you break it, you buy it.”
We were told the profits from oil revenue would pay for it, then WE became the financial backers though bait-and-switch. I say we have paid enough for this endeavor to have paid for any rational occupation (if there is such an animal) many times over. It’s a black hole, which sucks in lives and resources. How many more must be sacrificed to this failed experiment?
When would you call it quits? I’m really interested in your answer.
And the Iraq war has been a lesson in political expedience - from forcing an pre-’02 congressional vote, to prematurely withdrawing WMD inspection teams, to “mushroom cloud” rhetoric. When will it be enough for you?
February 11th, 2008 at 11:50 amit is not conservatives that are clammering for the draft. Tell your nephew that he’ll be okay, as long as there is a republican in the white house.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — February 11, 2008 @ 11:42 am
Of course Republicans aren’t “clammering (sic) for the draft”. They’re not interested in real accountability to the military or to the nation.
As long as they can make it look like the military is strong, they’re content to go on misusing its manpower and resources until Democrats have to step up and deal with the situation. Then they can try to claim that Democrats “hate the troops”.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:54 am“He’s really unafraid to take the hits if he thinks he’s doing the right thing.â€
Uh oh… typo… that should read…
“unafraid to SEE SOMEONE ELSE take the hits…”
February 11th, 2008 at 11:54 amHeh, this BS again. And the trolls are busy dropping heart-shaped peices of $#!+ on the thread, trying to make a claim that we’re somehow helping the Iraqi’s by doing the Surge….
Well, I know that I’m about to provide a soundbyte for them, one that they can use as evidence that ‘the evil libruls don’t care ’bout the Iraqi’s. They’ll ignore the supporting comments, but frankly, I don’t give a damn.
What happens to the Iraqi’s don’t matter to me. It’s their country, their way of life, and their decision to kill each other. The reason we’re in the situation we’re in today is because we’ve gotten too involved in other people’s business.
Don’t we have enough sick people and poor people here in the USA to take care of?
Don’t we have our own societal ills to address?
We’re too busy throwing our national treasure in the Iraqi toilet to notice what’s going on here at home. THAT needs to stop.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:55 amI keep hoping we’ll get a modern Woodward and Berstien and the rest of the press will start to do their job again. *sigh*…
Comment by TheRadicalRightisRadicallyWrong — February 11, 2008 @ 11:45 am
yea… but, david schuster was easily silenced…
hope that suspension is over soon…
corporate owned media will not be helping anymore…
i keep waiting to hear that keith’s show will be cancelled…
February 11th, 2008 at 11:55 am~~~ shudder ~~~
Comment by CaptainMantastic — February 11, 2008 @ 11:42 am
If there’s a strained military, some talk of a draft should not be considered unreasonable.
And I would be very careful about that campaign, “The surge is working!” All that means is, the bleeding from the wounds were temporarily gauzed, but the wounds should have never been caused in the first place.
Invading Iraq remains, and will always remain, a disasterous error with no possible net gain to our national security. Only future enemies and tough bridges to rebuild.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:56 amIt’s worse than that, ralph…
As long as it’s SOMEONE ELSE’S kid dying, GOOPers jes’ luve themselves some war…
Suggest even a slight tax increase to pay fer their misguided, blood-soaked nightmare, and you see enormously overweight, balding white men break down and cry… but as long as SOMEONE ELSE’S kid is dying, at no additional cost… they’re **cough** “patriotic” as all git out.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:57 amBush is real brave when someone else is at the front line. Where was he during Vietnam? Oh that is right training to fly airplanes that weren’t even going to be used. Then awol for months.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:58 am“Only future enemies and tough bridges to rebuild.”
Comment by McWars
But some, it seems, prefer us to just continue on driving in the ditch.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:59 amTo me a Bush supporter is as cowardly as Cheney and Bush and all the rest that sat on their fat ass’s and are sitting now on their fat ass’s but begging for more war. After all , let the peasants do the fighting, we Republicans have “other priorities”. Anyone that is for this war needs to put a uniform on today.
February 11th, 2008 at 12:02 pmTell your nephew that he’ll be okay, as long as there is a republican in the white house.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — February 11, 2008 @ 11:42 am
Your nephew or son goes first — you tell him that right to his face, while he’s lying in that hospital bed with his legs blown off.
Then go tell it to the 4000 families of the “ok” troops.
You’re getting flagged as a troll now.
February 11th, 2008 at 12:04 pmEspecially when everything he thinks is wrong.
February 11th, 2008 at 12:04 pmHaving sucked at the tailpipe of Sharansky ( The Case for Democracy: The Power of Freedom to Overcome Tyranny and Terror), BushitCo is clearly not interested in any world view that does not achtung acknowledge the Wahrheit truth of Sharasky’s vision.
victory welfare Bush!
February 11th, 2008 at 12:09 pmI sometimes fear that even when we take back the White House and forge a more united congress, the 24% would slowly expand, and no matter how good the performance of a Democratic White House/Congress, to 51% and go right back to falling for the crazy Republican mantra, “It’ll get much worse before it get’s a little better.”
Perhaps those are just my cynical views (please correct me if I’m wrong), but at any rate I know that a democratic presidency would heal and benefit the U.S. and the affected surrounding countries.
February 11th, 2008 at 12:12 pmTell your nephew that he’ll be okay, as long as there is a republican in the white house.
Comment by CaptainMantastic
Are these guys okay now?
U.S. Deaths Confirmed By The DoD: 3954
February 11th, 2008 at 12:20 pmReported U.S. Deaths Pending DoD Confirmation: 6
Total 3960
What exactly are the “hits” that bush takes ? He only speaks in front of censored audiences, he has only assistants that layer info in front of him. His assistants are afraid of his temper so give him only good news. He is so insulated he thinks we aren’t in a recession with houses being auctioned in every state. This man knows no real pain on anything.
February 11th, 2008 at 12:20 pmas this talk about the relative merits of the escalation — or ’surge,’ if you prefer — takes on an air of deja vu, it seems like a fair time to revive the question of why all the war fetishists are here blogging rather than enlisting. and spare me the dodge about, “i can support my favorite team without playing for them,” because the tigers or the celtics or the blackhawks or the broncos don’t want you and won’t have you. the military is stretched and they certainly will have you. anyone?
February 11th, 2008 at 12:26 pm“yea… but, david schuster was easily silenced…
hope that suspension is over soon…”
corporate owned media will not be helping anymore…
i keep waiting to hear that keith’s show will be cancelled…
~~~ shudder ~~~
Comment by katy — February 11, 2008 @ 11:55 am
I am not saddened by Shuster’s silencing. He was just doing what the rest of MSNBC (minus K.O.) does and that’s trying to “FOX” it up. MSNBC is trying to cater to two audiences. One Audience listens to K.O. and then shuts it off. the other wanders over from “FOX” wondering what all the attention is about and Tucker, Morning Joe, Tweety and the rest throw out the occasional tidbit of redmeat hoping to snare a few of ‘em.
I just wish that after one of K. O.’s scathing indictments the other parotkeets would continue the dialog just long enough for the truth to grow some legs and march right up to the capitol and force the Senate to do the right thing!
February 11th, 2008 at 12:27 pmThere isn’t an Iraq to rebuild. Millions have fled their homes and country out of sheer will to survive. All of the institutions that maintain a society are gone.
Read Michael Schwartz’ piece at TomDispatch about thetidal wave of misery that is engulfing Iraq.
February 11th, 2008 at 1:07 pmCheck out what Scott Ritter has to say about the “surge”:
http://www.truthdig.com/ report/ item/ 20080205_iraqs_tragic_future/
If he’s right, and he’s been right all along about Iraq, then hold on to your hats.
February 11th, 2008 at 1:37 pmWhat I don’t understand is why so many of you take Exley & captmantastic seriously. While I’m sure there are people out there who are really, truly, as stupid as these guys pretend to be, I also believe these two are not serious about their stupidity. They’re cybersadists. If they didn’t find a home here, they’d be on a Survivors of Child Molestation website chastising the victims for dressing like they were asking for it. Or they’d go on a Star Trek fan site and talk about how happy they are that Bones & Scotty are dead. Hell, they’d probably spend just as much time on a Hannity Fansite spouting left-wing talking points if those sites allowed dissenting opinion. Feel free to tear up their logic (such as it is), but every time you get ‘em angry their nipples get a leeeetle bit harder for getting under your skin. And really, do you want to be responsible for that? I mean, to quote my wise old grandma when I was 6 and threw up on her couch from eating too much pizza…. eeeeeeewwwwwwwww.
February 11th, 2008 at 1:39 pmPlus the fact that anybody who believes anything Tony Snow says, or for that matter anybody even remotely involved or related to the the Bush administration, is a fool. I’ve lost track of the lies, deceits, propaganda/brainwashing attempts they have made over the past seven years.
As a very wise politico said once, trust no one in power.
February 11th, 2008 at 1:51 pmSlappy Magoo, you have hit the nail on the head. These trolls are here because of some deficiency in their character.
I had a dog who would eat her own shit and throw up on the back porch for attention. Just like our trolls, they eat the shit from Faux News and regurtitate it here. It’s best to ignore them and try not to step in their vomit.
February 11th, 2008 at 1:58 pmHave the democratically elected representatives of the people of Iraq asked us to leave? Shouldn’t they be in the best position to know what is best for the Iraqi people.
Present me with information that those representing the Iraqis don’t want the surge and want us to leave now and my opinion will change.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — February 11, 2008 @ 1:46 pm
Cap’n, in a matter of speaking, yes.
A majority of Iraq’s Parliament members have signed a petition for a timetable governing a withdrawal of American troops, several legislators said Friday.
The withdrawal would depend on the growth and maturity of the Iraqi security forces, to ensure that the departure would not create a security vacuum and accelerate the sectarian conflict, the petition’s sponsors said.
“The troop withdrawal would move in parallel with the buildup of Iraqi troops, but their stay should not be for a long time,†said Saleh al-Igili, a member of the parliamentary bloc allied with the anti-American Shiite cleric Moktada al-Sadr, which sponsored the petition.
This petition was signed by a majority of the Iraqi parliament in May, 2007.
I recognize that you kind of loaded the dice with your last qualifier, Present me with information that those representing the Iraqis don’t want the surge and want us to leave now
so I don’t have information that those representing the Iraqis want us to leave NOW. If that is critical to your argument, then, your mind is safe from being changed.
February 11th, 2008 at 2:06 pmUhhhhhh,
Actually, there’s a bigger threat today than there was the day we invaded, so the soldier’s deaths have accomplished the OPPOSITE of what Dumbya proposed. Hmm.
And the anthrax “attacks” were from a DOMESTIC “terrrrrist” with a Government contract????
You suck so hard on the PSYOPS lollipop you’re choking on the stick.
GOOD LITTLE POODLE!
February 11th, 2008 at 2:08 pmPresent me with information that those representing the Iraqis don’t want the surge and want us to leave now and my opinion will change.
Comment by CaptainMantastic
Of course, in other words:
“Spoon feed my like a baby and wipe my mouth with my bib so my tummy will stop rumbling, then change my poopie diaper so I can take a nap.”
Is your “google” unable to find anything but right-wing propaganda, or are you just… nevermind.
February 11th, 2008 at 2:11 pmWhich republicans are advocating the draft?
Comment by CaptainMantastic — February 11, 2008 @ 2:06 pm
None. Because, as I and others pointed out earlier, Republicans don’t take seriously their obligation to the military or to the nation.
If the nation needs men to defend her, the able-bodied men of the nation should be willing to do so.
The problem is, it’s not the nation that needs defending. It’s the interests of the neocons and their multinaltional corporate patrons.
That’s why recruiting for the armed forces is falling short of need, why they are relying so heavily on National Guard units and why the army is close to its breaking point and has been for over two years.
Why do Republicans avoid talk of a draft if the security needs of our nation demand it?
February 11th, 2008 at 2:13 pmIt makes more sense to me, that they would be a better gauge of their need than partisan conservatives or partisan liberals not as familiar with the situation in Iraq.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — February 11, 2008 @ 2:09 pm
Then you’re in favor of a timetable?
Excellent.
February 11th, 2008 at 2:14 pmIf the cowardly supporters of this war(Exlax, cappy, Frankie, Daryll, et al.- THIS MEANS YOU), were to enlist, there would be no need for a draft.
February 11th, 2008 at 2:22 pm“Some Bush’s advisers are still weary of Iraq’s future.”
You mean wary, right?
February 11th, 2008 at 2:29 pmralph. I’m open to this idea, but you can see how someone might be skeptical of the claim, when it was made two years ago and we are still operating in Iraq and Afganistan - and at an increased level in Iraq.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — February 11, 2008 @ 2:17 pm
Sure, I can see why someone is skeptical of a claim when so much of his worldview depends on it not being true. I can see that.
Extended combat tours and claims of inadequate rest and recovery time is obviously a transparent attempt by the troops to kick back and party.
Recruiting goals that have been met by lowering standards for enlistment and boosting enlistment bonuses are an indication of a smooth-running recruitment operation, right?
I mean, since the army hasn’t collapsed in a heap, it’s clearly good to go for a few more wars. Is that how your thinking goes?
February 11th, 2008 at 2:33 pmI’m not in favor of a timetable, because I think it would telegraph our intentions, but I do recognize the positive impetous that it would produce for the Iraqis to become more autonomous, more urgently. It’s not black-n-white to me.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — February 11, 2008 @ 2:25 pm
But… I’m confused. You said, quite clearly,
It makes more sense to me, that they (Iraqi parliament) would be a better gauge of their need than partisan conservatives or partisan liberals not as familiar with the situation in Iraq.
The Iraqi parliament said they want a timetable for withdrawal of American troops.
Surely, they would “a better gauge of their need than partisan conservatives or partisan liberals not as familiar with the situation in Iraq”, no?
Yet you think you know better than the Iraqi parliament when it comes to timetables for withdrawal of American forces.
What gives? You went back on your word pretty quickly, Cap’n. (Sixteen minutes, by my calculation.) I expect better from you.
February 11th, 2008 at 2:37 pmYeah, I said it. I expect better from you. Others might not, but I still do.
February 11th, 2008 at 2:38 pmAre American forces stressed? Yes. Where we at the breaking point two years ago? No. We are still operating in Iraq and Afganistan today.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — February 11, 2008 @ 2:38 pm
So by your standards, we don’t have anything to worry about UNTIL THE MILITARY ACTUALLY BREAKS DOWN.
And you guys wonder why Americans trust the Democrats with the War on Terraâ„¢ more than Republicans.
February 11th, 2008 at 2:42 pmComment by CaptainMantastic — February 11, 2008 @ 2:48 pm
I appreciate your willingness to discuss (usually) with reasonableness and without name-calling.
To date, I haven’t really seen much of the flexibility you mention, but I’ll keep giving you opportunities to show it.
February 11th, 2008 at 2:52 pmOkay, with the condition of our military. If it is as bad as you say, is the answer to fix it necessarily to pullout of Iraq? If pulling out of Iraq is not the answer, what is?
Comment by CaptainMantastic — February 11, 2008 @ 2:58 pm
see, Cap’n, I say nice things about you and you go and pull a stunt like this. You’re confusing two seperate issues.
I guess I have to remind you that the state of the military was an issue in the discussion about a draft, not so much about Iraq. You had made a point that Republicans are not talking about a draft.
My response was basically, why not? If the security needs of our nation demand it, a draft should be a reasonable thing to discuss. The fact that Republicans are so loathe to address it tells me that their security concerns are not serious, or that they’re willing to ask others to sacrifice, but not their own sons and daughters.
The Iraq withdrawal issue was in response to your call for someone to provide information on the Iraqi parliament calling for us to leave NOW, based on the premise that the Iraqi parliament knows better than political partisans here in the US.
You can interrelate them, and they are no doubt connected, but in the context of our discussion, they were different issues.
February 11th, 2008 at 3:10 pmI believe that republican’s don’t advocate a draft because they believe that it would be better to man the military with volunteers than it would be to force people to serve against their will.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — February 11, 2008 @ 3:19 pm
I’m sure you do believe that. The alternative is certainly uncomfortable for you.
Sure, it’s preferrable to staff a military force with volunteers. But we’re at war, aren’t we? That’s what the right wing keeps shouting at us, at any rate. Some have even called it “the defining struggle of our era”.
IF our national security needs demand it (and a good argument can be made that they do, given the recruitment challenges, tour extensions and budget deficits tied to military spending that our nation faces) then it’s reasonable to discuss whether a draft is necessary. You yourself said it’s worth discussing. After all, our non-volunteer army, filled with men “forced to serve against their will” didn’t do so badly in World War 2, right?
No Republican official will even utter that much. That, I find suspicious. You find it perfectly reasonable, it seems. So be it.
February 11th, 2008 at 3:32 pmCappy; why are you dodging the issue? If warmongers like you are willing to put their bodies where their mouths are, there would not be any need for a draft.
You cowardly chickenhawks come up with the most lame-ass excuses to not enlist. One guy said the army doesn’t want him cause he’s 31. For decades, the top age to join was 34, but in recent years raised to 42. So wtf is his REAL excuse? chicken I say.
February 11th, 2008 at 3:40 pmpretty funny that all of our rightwing idiots can find a speck of gold in a pile of shit. the surge is a sure sign of the loss of Iraq. A “win” would have made the surge (more mass-murder) unnecessary. Every reason given for invasion was a lie, every excuse that it would be paid for by oil revenues was a lie, every estimate of how long it would last and low much it would cost was a lie, and the claim that the “surge” has worked is a lie. The Bush regime has adopted the Big Lie as their mantra, and the little righturds that sniff at their asses have swallowed it whole. they will do or say anything to avoid the embarrassment that they own, except, ironically, don the uniform and go fight for their lies. A pack of kackals has more morals, sense and patriotism thatn the right wingnuts of the Great Bush Disaster In The Desert.
February 11th, 2008 at 3:47 pm#143. Why on earth should it seem odd that those who support the “war†be required to fight in it?
February 11th, 2008 at 4:06 pmcappy; you support the war, but not willing to fight yourself. That spells cowardly chickenhawk. Don’t you have the balls to put your body where your mouth is?
February 11th, 2008 at 4:11 pmcappy; why should you wait for the reserves decide they need you? You should take the initiative and volunteer to go.
February 11th, 2008 at 4:13 pmIf that happens, I believe it can be done without a draft. You do not. I respect that.
If there is no progress, in either Iraq or Afganistan, the draft would be come more of an option the longer the conflict lasts. I don’t think we are there, you do.
As curious as you find it that republicans won’t consider a draft; I find it as curious that democrats clammer for a draft. It seems intuitive to me that it would be better to man an army with volunteers, than conscripting those who don’t want serve.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — February 11, 2008 @ 4:00 pm
You either misunderstand or misstate what I’ve said. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that it’s a misunderstanding.
First of all, I never said “it could not be done without a draft”. I think copulsory military (or some alternative) service for each American of a certain age would be an excellent idea, but I have not called for a draft in this circumstance. You made the assumption that, because I questioned the Republican aversion to the question, that I support a draft. That’s a imstaken assumption.
Second, please provide evidence of Democrats “clammering (sic) for a draft”? You make this statement as if it’s a common feature of our political landscape, to have Democrats “clammering” for a draft. I have heard no such “clammer”, unless you and I understand as well as spell the word differently.
Third, you again make the point that “it would be better to man an army with volunteers, than conscripting those who don’t want serve” as if it meant something important in this discussion. Of course it would be better. An all-volunteer army is a luxury that this nation has enjoyed for over thirty years. The question is not whether it is “better, it is whether the reckless foreign adventures of the Bush administration has made this a luxury whose affordablity is nearing its end.
February 11th, 2008 at 4:14 pmcappy; like I said, why should you WAIT? Take the initiative and VOLUNTEER! Otherwise, you are just spewing BULLSH*T.
February 11th, 2008 at 4:21 pmAre these guys okay now?
U.S. Deaths Confirmed By The DoD: 3954
Reported U.S. Deaths Pending DoD Confirmation: 6
Total 3960
Comment by shoeless — February 11, 2008 @ 12:20 pm
These soldiers have died to help prevent another attack (similar to that of 9/11 or worse) from happening again.
Comment by CaptainMantastic
Did you know that there were no Iraqi hijackers on 911?
Why do you hate the Iraqi people?
February 11th, 2008 at 4:27 pmIf the reserves needs the skill I have, they will call me.
Comment by CaptainMantastic
Why wait? You could be over there right now killing those Iraqis you hate so much for attacking us on 911.
February 11th, 2008 at 4:33 pm#153 - It would have made more sense to attack Florida.
February 11th, 2008 at 4:35 pmI agree, but this is where our assessment of situation differs. You think we require a draft now. The draft could eventually be required, I don’t think it’s required now.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — February 11, 2008 @ 4:17 pm
Jeezus effin’ Christ, Cap’n can you point out ONE instance of me saying that I think “we require a draft now”?
You’re wearing out that benefit of the doubt, Cap’n.
February 11th, 2008 at 4:39 pmIf the reserves need the skills I have.
I guess they don’t need pastry chefs then.
February 11th, 2008 at 5:02 pm“barfly. When the Iraqi leadership and the U.S. leadership agree that when we leave, the security situation in Iraq will allow for Iraqis to govern in accordance with their constitution.”
Comment by CaptainMantastic
In other words, never.
Color me surprised…
February 11th, 2008 at 5:10 pmcappy; one can NOT “troll” at redstate or any other reichwing site. Posts deviating from the party line will be deleted and the poster will be banned from making any further comments- but you knew that already.
February 11th, 2008 at 5:13 pmwhat are you saying, my friend? I know it may be wearing on your patience, but just imagine how trying it might be if you were debating over at redstate and everyone was calling you a troll. I’m really trying here.
Comment by CaptainMantastic — February 11, 2008 @ 5:04 pm
What I’m saying is the same thing I said at 4:14:
I never said “it could not be done without a draftâ€.
Comment by ralph the wonder llama — February 11, 2008 @ 4:14 pm
Which was a variation of what I said two hours earlier:
If the nation needs men to defend her, the able-bodied men of the nation should be willing to do so.
Comment by ralph the wonder llama — February 11, 2008 @ 2:13 pm
which was all a part of making the basic point:
Republicans don’t take seriously their obligation to the military or to the nation… Why do Republicans avoid talk of a draft if the security needs of our nation demand it?
Comment by ralph the wonder llama — February 11, 2008 @ 2:13 pm
At no time in the course of this discussion did I ever say that I think “we require a draft now”. Yet you have made that assumption repeatedly. It makes me think that you don’t really read what