Comments on: Mukasey: If Bush Issues Signing Statement, He’ll Have To ‘Virtually’ Do The Waterboarding Himself http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/ Thu, 26 Nov 2009 14:29:28 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: EpicureanQuaker http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-4267246 EpicureanQuaker Thu, 14 Feb 2008 21:56:17 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/#comment-4267246 <i>OK, let’s assume that the president wants, despite a finding of illegality under law, to have waterboarding done, who is it precisely that he’s going to get to do it? He would virtually have to do it himself. - - - - No, not really. Someone else would do the torture and then the President would demand retroactive immunity. Hmmm, sounds familiar.</i> That's right, so keep it illegal -- if there is a place for torture, it needs to be on a case-by-case basis, which can only take place if torture is not a sanctioned tool for interrogation. If torture is legal under proscribed limits, <b>every gov't spook will consider there case to warrant torture</b>. Yeah, its a delicate balancing act -- every potential torturer must weigh whether the circumstances are dire enough to commit a grossly illegal action -- but if torture is carried out without severe strictures, it will become systemic. <i>Ex post facto</i>, one would be hard-pressed to find someone who undertook waterboarding to have done it as anything less than a last resort, if the penalty was severe. While it may seem to place an undue moral burden upon the potential torturer, I personally feel that anyone given license to torture should be willing to carry out such a moral balancing act -- otherwise, they should not have been given clearance to be in such a tenuous position. Any thoughts? OK, let’s assume that the president wants, despite a finding of illegality under law, to have waterboarding done, who is it precisely that he’s going to get to do it? He would virtually have to do it himself.

- – - -

No, not really.

Someone else would do the torture and then the President would demand retroactive immunity.

Hmmm, sounds familiar.

That’s right, so keep it illegal — if there is a place for torture, it needs to be on a case-by-case basis, which can only take place if torture is not a sanctioned tool for interrogation. If torture is legal under proscribed limits, every gov’t spook will consider there case to warrant torture. Yeah, its a delicate balancing act — every potential torturer must weigh whether the circumstances are dire enough to commit a grossly illegal action — but if torture is carried out without severe strictures, it will become systemic. Ex post facto, one would be hard-pressed to find someone who undertook waterboarding to have done it as anything less than a last resort, if the penalty was severe. While it may seem to place an undue moral burden upon the potential torturer, I personally feel that anyone given license to torture should be willing to carry out such a moral balancing act — otherwise, they should not have been given clearance to be in such a tenuous position. Any thoughts?

]]> By: EpicureanQuaker http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-4267218 EpicureanQuaker Thu, 14 Feb 2008 21:42:59 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/#comment-4267218 <i>Bush and company don’t have the cajones, they’ll just farm it off to one of the mercenary companies that have already made themselves rich thanks to Bush. And remember, these companies have virtual immunity for everything that they do, up to and including rape and murder. They won’t turn their noses up at a little torture.</i> Contractors are exempt from UCMJ and Iraqi censure or prosecution -- unless said waterboarding was carried out over there, 'farming off' illegal coercive methods would carry the same penalties for any involved party. Bush and company don’t have the cajones, they’ll just farm it off to one of the mercenary companies that have already made themselves rich thanks to Bush. And remember, these companies have virtual immunity for everything that they do, up to and including rape and murder. They won’t turn their noses up at a little torture.

Contractors are exempt from UCMJ and Iraqi censure or prosecution — unless said waterboarding was carried out over there, ‘farming off’ illegal coercive methods would carry the same penalties for any involved party.

]]> By: EpicureanQuaker http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-4267205 EpicureanQuaker Thu, 14 Feb 2008 21:38:51 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/#comment-4267205 <i>Impeach Mukasey for not investigating the torture that has already been admitted to.</i> What? So far we've gotten more straight talk from him than Ashcroft and Gonzales <i>combined.</i> Anyway, you set a pretty goddamn low bar for impeachment -- its kneejerk idiocy like this that allows impeachable offenses to be committed with impunity. Impeach Mukasey for not investigating the torture that has already been admitted to.

What? So far we’ve gotten more straight talk from him than Ashcroft and Gonzales combined. Anyway, you set a pretty goddamn low bar for impeachment — its kneejerk idiocy like this that allows impeachable offenses to be committed with impunity.

]]> By: Lefty Patriot http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-4267136 Lefty Patriot Thu, 14 Feb 2008 21:12:36 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/#comment-4267136 Whatever the weak-willed weasels in the Congress are saying about it is irrelevant. Comment by Frank M — February 14, 2008 @ 12:23 pm and real Americans will enjoy your execution, you America-hating coward. Whatever the weak-willed weasels in the Congress are saying about it is irrelevant.

Comment by Frank M — February 14, 2008 @ 12:23 pm

and real Americans will enjoy your execution, you America-hating coward.

]]> By: dietrich http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-4266972 dietrich Thu, 14 Feb 2008 20:02:36 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/#comment-4266972 Refresh my memory, isn't Frank the one who said he wouldn't join the services because he was afraid of his own safety? Just wondering. r Refresh my memory, isn’t Frank the one who said he wouldn’t join the services because he was afraid of his own safety?
Just wondering.

r

]]> By: RUCerious http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-4266931 RUCerious Thu, 14 Feb 2008 19:40:47 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/#comment-4266931 The president claims such a prohibition will inhibit the collection of mis-information. Comment by katy — February 14, 2008 @ 2:09 pm Had to fix that for ya. The president claims such a prohibition will inhibit the collection of mis-information.

Comment by katy — February 14, 2008 @ 2:09 pm

Had to fix that for ya.

]]> By: BikeRanger http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-4266905 BikeRanger Thu, 14 Feb 2008 19:32:25 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/#comment-4266905 Bush can get Jeff Gannon to help. Bush can get Jeff Gannon to help.

]]> By: katy http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-4266821 katy Thu, 14 Feb 2008 19:09:11 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/#comment-4266821 <em><strong>Bush Will Veto Ban On Torture</strong> CBS News - 1 hour ago The White House said that President Bush will veto a bill that would ban the use of waterboarding by the CIA. The president claims such a prohibition will inhibit the collection of information.</em> Bush Will Veto Ban On Torture
CBS News – 1 hour ago
The White House said that President Bush will veto a bill that would ban the use of waterboarding by the CIA. The president claims such a prohibition will inhibit the collection of information.

]]> By: xopl http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-4266802 xopl Thu, 14 Feb 2008 19:01:41 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/#comment-4266802 The reason we haven't had any success in selling impeachment to Congress is because we've been calling it the wrong thing. We just need to start calling it an "Enhanced Congressional Oversight Technique" and then they'll be all for it. The reason we haven’t had any success in selling impeachment to Congress is because we’ve been calling it the wrong thing.

We just need to start calling it an “Enhanced Congressional Oversight Technique” and then they’ll be all for it.

]]> By: katy http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-4266751 katy Thu, 14 Feb 2008 18:44:18 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/#comment-4266751 <em>Isn’t this EXACTLY what BushCo has done with terror, the unitary executive, wiretaps, torture, etc - “heal” bad media coverage and gain more power? Comment by PatrioticLiberalChristian — February 14, 2008 @ 12:42 pm</em> send that up to waxman... i want to see the outrage... yea... Isn’t this EXACTLY what BushCo has done with terror, the unitary executive, wiretaps, torture, etc – “heal” bad media coverage and gain more power?
Comment by PatrioticLiberalChristian — February 14, 2008 @ 12:42 pm

send that up to waxman… i want to see the outrage…
yea…

]]> By: RUCerious http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-4266718 RUCerious Thu, 14 Feb 2008 18:33:17 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/#comment-4266718 LibLover #48 ~ And I can just visualize his smirk with a little 'heh' at the end... LibLover #48 ~ And I can just visualize his smirk with a little ‘heh’ at the end…

]]> By: Godfry Daniel http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-4266699 Godfry Daniel Thu, 14 Feb 2008 18:25:53 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/#comment-4266699 Bush wouldn't know which end to pour the water in. Bush wouldn’t know which end to pour the water in.

]]> By: ralph the wonder llama http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-4266688 ralph the wonder llama Thu, 14 Feb 2008 18:20:16 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/#comment-4266688 <em>Someone said, “you have to be able to eat and lie at the same time to be a politician.” I think this administration has mastered that. Comment by texaslady — February 14, 2008 @ 1:13 pm</em> But I think if they were pressed for time, they'd definitely skip lunch. Someone said, “you have to be able to eat and lie at the same time to be a politician.” I think this administration has mastered that.

Comment by texaslady — February 14, 2008 @ 1:13 pm

But I think if they were pressed for time, they’d definitely skip lunch.

]]> By: texaslady http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-4266663 texaslady Thu, 14 Feb 2008 18:13:20 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/#comment-4266663 Someone said, "you have to be able to eat and lie at the same time to be a politician." I think this administration has mastered that. Someone said, “you have to be able to eat and lie at the same time to be a politician.” I think this administration has mastered that.

]]> By: The Republic of Stupidity http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-4266650 The Republic of Stupidity Thu, 14 Feb 2008 18:08:19 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/#comment-4266650 Some expert on torture and interrogation was quoted in a thread here as saying, "Torture doesn't provide reliable intel. People torture because THEY WANT TO TORTURE." Back to you in the studio, Skippy... Some expert on torture and interrogation was quoted in a thread here as saying, “Torture doesn’t provide reliable intel. People torture because THEY WANT TO TORTURE.”

Back to you in the studio, Skippy…

]]> By: LibertyLover http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-4266645 LibertyLover Thu, 14 Feb 2008 18:06:04 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/#comment-4266645 And don’t you think for one moment he wouldn’t. Just for the sheer exhilaration and pleasure. Comment by RUCerious — February 14, 2008 @ 11:54 am Absolutely my first thought after reading this post. And don’t you think for one moment he wouldn’t. Just for the sheer exhilaration and pleasure.

Comment by RUCerious — February 14, 2008 @ 11:54 am

Absolutely my first thought after reading this post.

]]> By: The Republic of Stupidity http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-4266642 The Republic of Stupidity Thu, 14 Feb 2008 18:04:10 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/#comment-4266642 Right, texaslady, and I don't think it's an accident that BruschCo tells so many lies in so many different directions that you end up having no idea what's what anymore. Right, texaslady, and I don’t think it’s an accident that BruschCo tells so many lies in so many different directions that you end up having no idea what’s what anymore.

]]> By: The Republic of Stupidity http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-4266639 The Republic of Stupidity Thu, 14 Feb 2008 18:03:00 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/#comment-4266639 Actually, Frank wants to be Team Troll's Official Fluffler. Actually, Frank wants to be Team Troll’s Official Fluffler.

]]> By: texaslady http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-4266638 texaslady Thu, 14 Feb 2008 18:02:58 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/#comment-4266638 Usually bush/cheney do whatever they want and then get a bill to provide immunity to whatever law they broke, so wonder why the waterboarding is different. And remember the tapes were destroyed, or were they? Usually bush/cheney do whatever they want and then get a bill to provide immunity to whatever law they broke, so wonder why the waterboarding is different. And remember the tapes were destroyed, or were they?

]]> By: The Republic of Stupidity http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-4266637 The Republic of Stupidity Thu, 14 Feb 2008 18:02:22 +0000 http://edit.thinkprogress.org/2008/02/14/mukasey-signing-torture/#comment-4266637 "... the existence of the Troll Troops?" Comment by Saint Augustine — February 14, 2008 @ 12:53 pm Beginning to sound like "The Lord of The Rings" here, but that just might be appropriate, seeing how some of our trolls do seem to live in a fantasy world of their own making. “… the existence of the Troll Troops?”

Comment by Saint Augustine — February 14, 2008 @ 12:53 pm

Beginning to sound like “The Lord of The Rings” here, but that just might be appropriate, seeing how some of our trolls do seem to live in a fantasy world of their own making.

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