Lieberman Defends Waterboarding: It’s ‘Not Like Putting Burning Coals On People’s Bodies’
Lieberman Defends Waterboarding: It’s ‘Not Like Putting Burning Coals On People’s Bodies’
Yesterday, Sen. Joe Lieberman (I-CT) “reluctantly acknowledged” that he doesn’t believe waterboarding is torture. According to the Connecticut Post, Lieberman downplayed the severity of the waterboarding because it doesn’t inflict permanent physical damage:
In the worst case scenario — when there is an imminent threat of a nuclear attack on American soil — Lieberman said that the president should be able to certify the use of waterboarding on a detainee suspected of knowing vital details of the plot.
“You want to be able to use emergency tech to try to get the information out of that person,” Lieberman said. [...]
“It is not like putting burning coals on people’s bodies. The person is in no real danger. The impact is psychological,” Lieberman said.
Lieberman appears to be mimicking his close friend Sen. John McCain’s (R-AZ) pandering to the right wing. Like Lieberman, McCain voted against banning waterboarding this week, even though he had previously called the technique “very exquisite torture.”
Until recently, Lieberman had also raised objections to the Bush administration’s interrogation practices:
– In 2006, Lieberman said that “the most effective way to get information from a suspect is persistent, long-term questioning. ‘If terrorists are tried and convicted of committing a terrorist act, they should be subject to the death penalty,’ he said.” [AP, 9/18/06]
– As recently as December, Lieberman said, “Obviously, waterboarding is a rough, to put it mildly, technique.” He added that he hadn’t “resolved absolutely” whether waterboarding should be allowed to “gather information that would stop an imminent terrorist attack.” [CNS News, 12/12/07]
To be classified as torture, a procedure does not have to inflict permanent physical damage. In fact, psychological torture can be worse. Former Navy airman Richard E. Mezo was subjected to “water torture” and concluded, “Pulling out my fingernails or even cutting off a finger would have been preferable. At least if someone had attacked my hands, I would have had to simply tolerate pain. But drowning is another matter.”
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I'm speechless...
February 15th, 2008 at 10:09 amI’m speechless…
Comment by bilbobaggins — February 15, 2008 @ 10:09 am
If only Lieberman was.
February 15th, 2008 at 10:12 amI think if anyone from the senate is prepared to say that waterboarding is not torture, they should be waterboarded to prove how harmless it is.
Who's up for it?
February 15th, 2008 at 10:13 amI'm sick of sifting the fine points of 'torture' vs' 'interrogation' vs whatever. It adds credibility to the soul-sickness of the modern United States Empire. BTW: The next time I hear Lieberman's name mentioned in connection to waterboarding, I want it to be his first-hand account of how much HE loved his session.
February 15th, 2008 at 10:16 amwhat a depraved little pissant. but is it really a surprise that likudnik wouldn't thrill at the opportunity to torture muslims.
February 15th, 2008 at 10:19 amWhat kind of rationale is that -- no permanent damage means it's not torture? Believing you are going to die a horrible death is not torture?
Of course, psychological harm does not leave permanent damage.
February 15th, 2008 at 10:26 amHe's just mad because he looks like the dad from Alf.
February 15th, 2008 at 10:26 amCheney memo:
February 15th, 2008 at 10:27 amlets explore this burning coal on the body method.
Can we inflict psychological damage on Liebermann and see if he is affected?
February 15th, 2008 at 10:27 amMakes you want to beat your head against a wall and cry
February 15th, 2008 at 10:28 amYou would think a Jewish person would never endorse torture, lest it cheapen the sacrifices of all those Jews tortured and killed during WW2.
So much for belief in his "faith."
February 15th, 2008 at 10:29 amLieberman Defends Waterboarding: It’s ‘Not Like Putting My Body On Other People’s Bodies’
February 15th, 2008 at 10:30 amI can not believe, in this day and age (of the 21st century), that we are even having a debate whether water boarding is considered torture! And it is so hard to comprehend that there are individuals out there (or here) that actually condone water torture. Unfortunately, these people live in "hypotheticals", in which they support a procedure that "may" prevent possible attacks. So far, no known document has surfaced where torture has prevented an imminent attack (except, of course, on the fictional "24").
Yet, not one of these torture supporters here have ever debated me about the "tit for tat" logic. If we can do it, so can they, and it's acceptable, correct?
Oh, and let's not forget, water torture was outlawed in the US, and resulted in several executions for those that did:
In this country, Major Edwin Glenn was court-martialed and sentenced to ten years hard labor in 1901 for water boarding a prisoner in the Philippines during the Spanish-American War. The US officially outlawed the practice after World War II, because it had been used against Allied troops by the Gestapo and the Japanese Kempeitai. Indeed, eight Kempeitai officers were executed for water boarding British prisoners, and Japanese officer Yukio Asano was convicted by an Allied court of war crimes in 1947 for, among other things, water boarding John Henry Burton, a US civilian.
I'm sorry, but when does impeachment hearings began?
For purposely condoning torture specifically outlawed after WWII?
As a proud supporter of the troops, and a progressive who absolutely loves his country, I've never been more ashamed of the government of the USA in the last 5 years!
Lieberman, you're an idiot for even wavering on this subject!!!
February 15th, 2008 at 10:30 amso psychological torture isn't real torture? then verbal abuse of children wouldn't count as abuse either... just as long as you don't hit them(?)
you'd better think this through, Lieberman...
February 15th, 2008 at 10:32 amGOOD! Then lets take the good senator from israel on a swimming lesson!
February 15th, 2008 at 10:33 amAmen DRxJ,
Torture is unAmerican and should not be tolerated by anyone that believes in God (of whatever faith).
February 15th, 2008 at 10:33 amApparently Joe Lieberman only objected to Nazi actions that resulted in physical harm to their millions of victims.
The psychological torture was just fine with him.
Full cycle.
-GSD
February 15th, 2008 at 10:34 amTorture is unAmerican and should not be tolerated by anyone that believes in God (of whatever faith).
Comment by OptimisticMF — February 15, 2008 @ 10:33 am
Torture is beyond unAmerican. It's unHuman.
February 15th, 2008 at 10:35 amSensory deprivation and extreme isolation are also torture! And these things are done as a matter-of-course to "war on terror" detainees.
Why does waterboarding get all the attention? Np doubt it is torture, but we're *destroying minds* here.
February 15th, 2008 at 10:36 am1. It is the psychological impact of ANY interrogation technique which matters... Unless the goal is to SET AN EXAMPLE, rather than obtain information.
2. Waterboarding, to be effective in any way, must do this: It must convince the victim that he/she IS ACTUALLY GOING TO DIE. Otherwise, it's of no use.
3. Considering that you could possibly believe that you would survive hot coals (even if maimed in some way), but that you would not believe that you could survive were you subjected to waterboarding, the fact is, that WATERBOARDING IS ACTUALLY FAR, FAR WORSE THAN HOT COALS as a torture technique. In fact, one could hardly think of a more disgusting technique.
It's critical to always remember, re: waterboarding: the technique is designed specifically to elicit the MAXIMUM AMOUNT OF TERROR POSSIBLE.
February 15th, 2008 at 10:38 amIn the worst case scenario — when there is an imminent threat of a nuclear attack on American soil — Lieberman said that the president should be able to certify the use of waterboarding on a detainee suspected of knowing vital details of the plot.
Here's the question - if there were an imminent nuclear attack, why stop at waterboarding? Why not red-hot pokers where the sun don't shine? Electrodes on genitals? Vats of boiling oil would almost seem too kind.
Seriously, in the nuclear scenario, should anything be off-limits? Anything at all?
Or is delineating "acceptable" procedures in this scenario just a giant exercise in legal vvankery?
February 15th, 2008 at 10:38 amThe issue is really, is this torture "water-boarding" legal. The fact that there may be other worse tortures is as irrelavent as saying the being shot by a gun is better then be murdered by a knife.
February 15th, 2008 at 10:39 amAny President willing to certify such use must also be willing to stand trial for this crime against humanity. The example of the Japanese standing trial (and being executed) for war crimes after WWII is illustrative of this situation. Clearly they believed the United States was an immediate threat, as it was a actual declared war, and the use of torture was "justified" as necessary to save the lives of their countrymen. It is precisely this case that we should be most concerned about. Any willing to sacrifice their own humanity to save others should NOT be in a position of power. In about 320 days at least 2 of these will no longer be a threat to this country, but folks like Joementum need to have this quote brought back up in about 4.5 years over and over.
February 15th, 2008 at 10:42 amAnd to think this "person" would have been Vice President if Al Gore had won in 2000. And now I think he's angling for the VP spot on the ticket with McCain. He's demonstrated his complete lack of principles and revealed himself for what he truly is. Another traitor who will do ANYTHING to hold onto power and get more. He should be ashamed of himself, but sociopaths are incapable of shame.
February 15th, 2008 at 10:44 ambarfly, exactly my thoughts. His ancestors would be disgusted by this weasel.
If permanent physical damage is the bright line we won't cross, there are some pretty creative methods to torture. Sorry, I meant to say interrogate.
Put the suspect naked in a refrigerated compartment and slowly lower the temperature until he slips away, then resucitate him.
Same with hot water, raise the temperature until he passes out from hyperthermia.
Electric shock to the nads leaves no mark.
A weak acid bath will burn off the first layer of skin, but it grows back good as new.
Raise the pressure in a decompression chamber and then suddenly lower it. Bubbles in the blood stream will temorarily cripple the subject and I understand it's real painful.
Rape his wife and kids in front of him. They will heal. Physically at least.
I could go on, the point is that there are a lot of torture techniques that don't leave permananent physical harm.
February 15th, 2008 at 10:45 amSo Lieberman has jumped onto the torture bandwagon, and I think he's had his foot on that running board for awhile now. His excuse is that it doesn't inflict permanent PHYSICAL damage, implying that psychological damage is trivial (never mind that it's mostly psychological damage that causes our own vets to have difficulty assimilating into society, causes them to have problems holding jobs, causes them to turn to alcohol and drugs to deal with their demons, causes them to be homeless, etc.).
But I suspect all this spinning is to cover the real reason some people advocate torture. There are many in our society who aren't interested in justice or solving problems as much as they are revenge and payback.
The argument that waterboarding doesn't produce useful information? No matter -- waterboard 'em anyway. Payback for 9/11. Or for terrorist attacks against Israel -- take your pick.
The argument that the death penalty doesn't deter capital crimes? No matter -- kill 'em anyway. Payback for murder (even though life without parole would probably be a worse punishment than death).
It doesn't even matter if the punishment is directed at people who had nothing to do with the initial outrage -- like 9/11 and Iraq. As long as SOMEBODY pays the ultimate price by being tortured or killed, our sadism will be satisfied.
February 15th, 2008 at 10:45 amSeriously, in the nuclear scenario, should anything be off-limits? Anything at all?
Comment by Dumb_Fox — February 15, 2008 @ 10:38 am
The nuclear scenario is nothing but ludicrous fiction. The people using it really need to stop watching so much TV.
February 15th, 2008 at 10:45 amLooks like Droopy Dawg is hedging for a possible spot as VP on McLame's ticket. Sounds great! Let him ride the Straight Talk Express (read: the bull shit bus) into obscurity.
February 15th, 2008 at 10:46 amand, in the 21st century, we here on earth all know that there is no such thing as psychological trauma so damaging as to be debilitating or life altering or inflicting severe pain and anguish on a person. at some point, this parsing must stop. seriously.
February 15th, 2008 at 10:47 amIt infuriates me when politicians resort to the "ticking bomb" scenario -- the idea that an imminent threat justifies behavior that would otherwise be unacceptable. It sounds okay in theory, but how much of a threat is necessary? How urgent does it have to be? Ultimately, it's an excuse for nearly anything, provided that some nebulous future threat can be identified.
February 15th, 2008 at 10:48 amThe right(which might as well include Lie-berman) now shamelessly disucsses torture right out in the open as a necessity. Flipping across the radio a couple of days ago and there's Bildo O'Liely claiming the left is putting us in danger by not allowing it.
Let's just hope we can hold on until November and these sickos don't drive the Country off a cliff in the meantime.
The only question I have is will the next Administration enforce the rule of law and go after these guys when they leave office. Or will they pull a Gerald Ford and suggest we just have to "get over it"?
February 15th, 2008 at 10:48 amLIEberman and McInsane should get a room and try the water torture.
February 15th, 2008 at 10:51 amThe nuclear scenario is nothing but ludicrous fiction. The people using it really need to stop watching so much TV.
Comment by toasterhead — February 15, 2008 @ 10:45 am
My point precisely.
February 15th, 2008 at 10:51 amWow I wonder if Lieberman knows that they water boarded Holocaust victims? Oh well, no biggie, not as bad as burning coals. What a smart man.
February 15th, 2008 at 10:52 amI guess the good news would be that jomentum will be without a chairmanship and in the minority party next congress, and likely defeated in the 2010 cycle.
February 15th, 2008 at 10:53 amand, in the 21st century, we here on earth all know that there is no such thing as psychological trauma so damaging as to be debilitating or life altering or inflicting severe pain and anguish on a person. at some point, this parsing must stop. seriously.
Comment by po — February 15, 2008 @ 10:47 am
Why don't you go talk to some Iraq war veterans who are suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder and tell them that their psychological trauma is neither debilitating or life altering. I'm sure they'll appreciate the pep talk.
February 15th, 2008 at 10:54 amThey will say we need to get over it and heal. Come together as a nation.
F'ing bullshit. I think Bush and the Boyz should be hounded by investigations the rest of their lives. And when found guilty, suffer the consequences.
February 15th, 2008 at 10:55 amHow many have died as a result of harsh interrogation methods while in US custody?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding
"McConnell, the nation's spy chief, said in Tuesday's testimony that waterboarding "taken to its extreme, could be death; you could drown someone." But he, too, refused to declare it illegal in hypothetical cases."
February 15th, 2008 at 11:01 amhttp://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,328686,00.html
Waterboarding is torture. Torture is a warcrime. WH and CIA admits having used torture. Ergo..
February 15th, 2008 at 11:02 amThis is typical Republican lowering of the bar in all things ethical and moral.
"Not quite as bad as Saddam!"
"Better then hot burning coals!"
"They commit war crimes too!"
It is depraved.
February 15th, 2008 at 11:05 amWaterboarding is and always has been torture. People have been convicted in civil and military courts for waterboarding. From a WaPo article:
There is no debate regarding the legality of waterboarding - there is only the straw man of doubt erected by the sadistic right for the dual purposes of justifying their lust to dole out physical pain to their enemies, real or perceived, and to avoid criminal repercussions for having already done so.
February 15th, 2008 at 11:06 amWhen I heard Whiney Joe say "It's not like we put hot coals on their bodies", I had the distinct impression that was exactly what he would like to do. I hope McCain chooses him as his running mate, then these two old has-beens can ride the Double Talk Express into eternity. The next election will be the end of Whiney Joe anyway. When the Democrats no longer need to be blackmailed to keep their majority in the Senate, they will strip him of his chairmanship and send him packing. What in hell were the people of Conneticut thinking when they elected him? Oh, I forgot, the Republicans elected him!
February 15th, 2008 at 11:09 amHey Joe....That'll do pig,That'll do.
February 15th, 2008 at 11:10 amI suspect Lieberman's enthusiasm for torture depends on the ethnoreligious background of the one being tortured.
February 15th, 2008 at 11:12 amHopefully, he'll have BOTH DONE TO HIM TODAY!
February 15th, 2008 at 11:14 amHe’s just mad because he looks like the dad from Alf.
Comment by Ike_Skelton — February 15, 2008 @ 10:26 am
Talks like him, too.
February 15th, 2008 at 11:14 amThe worst case scenario of water torture is simply death. It is called "simulated" drowning, but when done properly the drowning is not simulated, it is very real. Since you are not actually immersed in water it is easy to "pull you out" and revive you once you pass out. However, if the torturer does not know what they are doing then there is a real possibility that they could kill you with this "harsh", "enhanced" interrogation technique.
I feel water torture is just a sideshow of the whole debate though. We've used many other torture techniques during the recent "wars" including menacing naked prisoners with dogs to the point of actual blood drawing scratches and bites, simulated homosexual sex practices, demeaning posed photographs, wiring up genitals, smearing "menstrual" blood on muslim prisoners, spraying urine into cells through ventilation fans, forced stress positions, forced awakeness for several days, and of course just putting someone in a sleeping bag and beating them with baseball bats and hammers until they die. Those are the "techniques" which I have read about, and amazingly enough actually seen pictures of some of them, over the last several years.
To talk of "waterboarding" seems to deny that all these other atrocities are occurring. And, yes, Mr. Lieberman prisoners have died in our custody after being tortured. These are not theoretical debates.
February 15th, 2008 at 11:16 amIf only we could get these school shooters to trek to Washington and pay a visit to Joe and his ilk. Just a thought.
February 15th, 2008 at 11:17 amI know it's in bad taste, quit whining.
In the worst case scenario — when there is an imminent threat of a nuclear attack on American soil — Lieberman said that the president should be able to certify the use of waterboarding on a detainee suspected of knowing vital details of the plot.
So, Joe, it's OK to waterboard a detainee if we face an imminent nukular attack, but for any other type of attack, it isn't? Is that what you are saying?
More fearmongering.
February 15th, 2008 at 11:21 amJOE LIEBERMAN DEFENDS WATERBOARDING
That was the headline on my local newspaper this morning.
He went on to justify it in the event of the danger of an imminent nuclear attack. I wonder whether or not it occurs to these people that the only country recently being threatened with a nuclear attack is Iran? By the U.S.? Does Iran now have the green light to waterboard Americans who might know about any imminent attack on them by the U.S.?
February 15th, 2008 at 11:21 amSo - Joe Lieberman - a Jew - think it's ok to put people in concentration camps and submit them to psychological tortures.
Should he really be called "Shoa Joe", or "Kristallnacht Joe", or "Treblinka Joe"???
How sick is that pallid little man?
February 15th, 2008 at 11:33 amtoasterhead, i was commenting on the absurdity of L's comments that somehow psychological harm is no harm at all, not disputing that psychological harm exits.
February 15th, 2008 at 11:34 amWhat a fu(king d!ck.
"“It is not like putting burning coals on people’s bodies. The person is in no real danger. The impact is psychological,†Lieberman said."
Is that so, Holy Joe?
Practices that have evolved... to break down subjects through psychological means that leave no visible scars ...are far more palatable with the general public. Sleep deprivation, stress positions, sensory deprivation and the like are dismissed by pundits and defense lawyers as nothing like torture.
But the aftereffects of such treatment are at least as damaging to those on the receiving end, such as having teeth pulled out, being burned, or being electrocuted. Those are the findings of a new report in the Archives of General Psychiatry.
I guess, as long as Holy Joe doesn't have to worry about photos of the damage leaking out, he's cool with it.
February 15th, 2008 at 11:35 amIn the worst case scenario — when there is an imminent threat of a nuclear attack on American soil — Lieberman said that the president should be able to certify the use of waterboarding on a detainee suspected of knowing vital details of the plot.
Okay, I started asking this question the other day and so far no troll, or even a reasonable conservative, has had a decent answer.
How is this "worst-case scenario" justification for what otherwise would be a crime -- torture -- any different from a man committing a robbery in order to feed his starving family?
February 15th, 2008 at 11:38 amThe impact is psychological,†Lieberman said.
Does this mean Holy Joe thinks the troops with PTSD should just suck it up because they haven't really been harmed since it's just psychological?
February 15th, 2008 at 11:39 amSomeone club this a$$hole.
For the past five years, I have figured that Holy Joe was a liberal who simply enjoyed his reputation as one who would cross party lines, and truly believed in the invasion of Iraq as a good foreign policy decision.
His choices could even be explained by a slavish devotion to the cause of Israel. And then after his primary defeat in 2006, his rhetoric got a real vindictiveness to it that told me he wanted to punish the Democratic Party.
But this defense of torture, using verbatim right-wing talking points (and stupid talking points at that) says someting else: Holy Joe owes BushCo big time.
I don't know whether they have incriminating photos of him, or if they puled some strings in the '06 general to help him retain his set, or if he just sold his soul on the cheap to Cheney.
But he's no longer just a scold, or a Zionist or a jilted Democrat.
He's soul-dead.
February 15th, 2008 at 11:47 amHow is this “worst-case scenario†justification for what otherwise would be a crime — torture — any different from a man committing a robbery in order to feed his starving family?
Comment by ralph the wonder llama — February 15, 2008 @ 11:38 am
Well, duh... There's a HUGE difference. In your example the poor are suffering. Therefore Republicans don't care, and it's an invalid use of the "worst-case" argument.
No wonder the trolls don't have a response.
February 15th, 2008 at 11:48 amtoasterhead, i was commenting on the absurdity of L’s comments that somehow psychological harm is no harm at all, not disputing that psychological harm exits.
Comment by po — February 15, 2008 @ 11:34 am
My apologies - I didn't pick up on the sarcasm. Sorry!
February 15th, 2008 at 11:50 amThis is not a debate over the effectiveness or legality of water boarding. It is instead a debate over the moral basis of our country. The Republican administration and its supporters simply take the view that the United States is entitled to do whatever it wants in order to protect its interests. In other words, it claims a position of moral superiority over its enemies and other nations. Thus, any tactic is acceptable because it is being used in the right cause. The ends justifies the means. However, in order to win the PR battle over those who recognize the immorality of this argument and the danger of operating under such a morally unconstrained system, the administration is willing to twist the rule of law, destroy longstanding interpretation of law and flaunt international standards. In the end, the United States can not help but to become what it has fought. We have seen an active campaign of terrorism by this government against its citizens to justify the implementation of these immoral standards.
February 15th, 2008 at 11:52 amThe Zionist Senator LIEberman is just another example of "Crap Running Downhill from The Top".
Don't look to Secret CIA Gulags and Guantanamo, look at your local police, and what they are doing to innocent citizens.
http://existentialistcowboy.blogspot.com/2008/02/tasers-torture-and-terror-tactics.html
February 15th, 2008 at 11:58 amYou know I have patience with most dumbass trolls but Darnell just crossed the line.
February 15th, 2008 at 11:59 amFlag the low life.
Daryll,have mommy remove your crusts next time and let the grownups talk for now...um kay?
February 15th, 2008 at 11:59 amThis begs the question, did pal Joel ever undergo waterboarding or burning coals him? Did he speak from first-hand experience?
Didn't think so.
February 15th, 2008 at 12:01 pmDarryl would know ab out sick, vile , disgusting people .
February 15th, 2008 at 12:02 pmSick, sick, person.
Joey!!! Stop talking like this.
You're making Frankie drool.
February 15th, 2008 at 12:03 pmHowever daryll you are correct about one thing.I would feel nothing putting a bullet through your head or the heads of those who think as you do.You are traitors to OUR country and by law we have the right to remove you with violence if need be. I am filled with hope that that day is fast approaching.
February 15th, 2008 at 12:03 pmTorture doesn't work. Fact.
February 15th, 2008 at 12:03 pmI am very agitated with you liberals. Don’t you understand that this is a key intelligence method utilized by operatives to obtain sensitive information that will save your life? I am tired of your party supporting terrorism in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, etc. Blah blah blah blah blah blah
Comment by Daryll — February 15, 2008 @ 11:49 am
Daryll, you're not very bright, so we generally try to take it easy on you here.
But no one is interested in your feelings about liberals. Or your interpretations of foreign policy. Like I said, you're not very bright.
It's no sin to be not bright, but it doesn't really make you very interesting either.
February 15th, 2008 at 12:04 pmWaterboarding is a resourceful technique that will not harm the criminals in Guantanamo.
Comment by Daryll — February 15, 2008 @ 12:03 pm
Who would Jesus water torture?
February 15th, 2008 at 12:04 pmDaryll: Who would Jesus torture?
STFU You Nazi pig!
February 15th, 2008 at 12:05 pmSo how should we obtain information from these sick, vile, repulsive and disgusting people? Give them a steak dinner, money, and allow them to watch sitcoms at Guantanamo Bay? You are a true terrorist that should be locked up.
Comment by Daryll — February 15, 2008 @ 11:55 am
You ask them like normal human beings ask others typical questions of fellow human beings ; behaving in the same manner of those that you have just called "sick , vile , repulsive and disgusting" makes you the equivalent of those you just railed against.
That type of behavior makes you that which you claim to be unacceptable , the very same ; that is also not the way the supposed "beacon of democracy" is supposed to even consider , let alone carry out ..........
February 15th, 2008 at 12:06 pmhow should we obtain information from these sick, vile, repulsive and disgusting people?
Comment by Daryll — February 15, 2008 @ 11:55 am
Wasn't it Jesus who said "Judge not, lest ye be judged"?
You never actually answered the other day, Daryll, but it does seem you're a little flexible on that whole "Judge not" thing. Am I right?
February 15th, 2008 at 12:06 pmI pray that liberals run on the issue of torture.
Comment by Liberals Are Filled With Hate — February 15, 2008 @ 12:06 pm
The majority of this Country is against torture.....as they should be. Only the radical radical far far reich-wing is insane enough to want to torture humans. You people are sick. Fact
February 15th, 2008 at 12:09 pmWhy are you against waterboarding and wiretapping?
Because we are better then that Daryll....or at least we used to be.
February 15th, 2008 at 12:09 pmIf your sister used to be the envy of the town for her virtue and chastity would you not freak out when she suddenly was sucking everyone in town off? It's kinda like that,I'm sure that makes it easier for you to grasp.
Jesus has always given consequences to those that have deliberately sinned.
Comment by Daryll — February 15, 2008 @ 12:07 pm
You didn't answer the question: Who would Jesus torture?
February 15th, 2008 at 12:10 pmComment by Liberals Are Filled With Hate — February 15, 2008 @ 12:06 pm
Are you stupidly suggesting that torture is somehow going to deter future terrorist attacks ?
Based upon what ?
How many states in the US still have the death penalty ?
Do those states have a zero murder rate now ?
BTW You Chimpy nut hugging chucklehead ; there is no "issue" on torture . It is AGAINST THE LAW IN THE US ; do you understand what that means , you GOP backing mental furball ?
February 15th, 2008 at 12:10 pmThe troll is fed,shall we move on?
February 15th, 2008 at 12:11 pmYeah, I thought so!
Matthew 7.1-5:
1Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
But I guess Daryll knows when to pay attention to the Word of God and when NOT to, right?
February 15th, 2008 at 12:13 pmOperative: Were you involved in the 9/11 attack
Terrorist: No.
Wow, I guess having a genuine relationship with these individuals will work. Wow, you guys are astonishing.
Comment by Daryll — February 15, 2008 @ 12:09 pm
February 15th, 2008 at 12:14 pmIf torture does indeed "work" , how come the 6 suspected terrorists that are currently in US custody and are accused of being involved with 9/11 , haven't revealed Osama Bin Laden's whereabouts ; or do you stupidly believe they weren't asked that , you Bible-thumping douchebag ?
"Jesus has always given consequences to those that have deliberately sinned. How else will we obtain sensitive information?"
D - when did you start thinking bush was jesus, exactly?
At best, Daryll, you are: idol-worshipper - vain sinner - reprobate - backslider - heretic
damnation is yours buddy - enjoy.
February 15th, 2008 at 12:23 pm75 - those are psychopathic observations. please don't go shoot up a school or church or office.
February 15th, 2008 at 12:24 pmI see our antagonist showed up, as if right on cue.
February 15th, 2008 at 12:28 pmDaryll of parodyll, who contradicts just about everything in the Bible, which makes us true believers look bad.
Liberals heart terrists, or whatever it goes by now, spouting out nothing in particular.
Well, it's time:
Answer me this, if you can.
If we are justified in water torturing enemies, then, they in turn are justified in doing the same to our captured soldiers. Yes or no? Please explain.
This shouldn't be too difficult. But be forewarned, if you choose to ignore this request, your subsequent posts mean absolutely nothing, other than proof of your attempts to derail!
11:35 AM 2/15/2008
#3. Comment by robertorobert -
I'm with ya.
#9. Comment by Marie -
Good thought, but I think his daily IV of Republican Kool-Aid
has made him immune to anything like that.
He's a 'Stepford' Repug now.
#13. Comment by DRxJ -
I'd like to second everything you said.
#14. Comment by Pete Bogs -
Thinking things through is against their rules isn't it?
#16. Comment by OptimisticMF -
I hope you're not saying that you think atheists endorse torture
any more than non-atheists!
#21. Comment by Dumb_Fox -
"Or is delineating acceptable†procedures in this scenario just a
giant exercise in legal vvankery?"
..... Yes.
#26. Comment by missmolly -
That's a sad aspect of this that's probably true.
And they still [somehow] want people to believe that they
are the party of Family Values and morals.
Mafia families have better 'values' than these criminals.
#31. Comment by Toss these losers -
What do you think they'll do.... It's not like they listen to the people
who they're supposed to represent. Well OK, they might "listen",
but they won't "hear" or "do"(what they took an OATH to do).
#35. Comment by moondancer -
How was this guy even re-elected?
Connecticut voters re-elected him, and now the party is
being 'tortured' by his presence.
I say everyone who voted for Leiberman should be forced
to strip naked and stand out in front of their house in shame!
-- Excellent thread people!
February 15th, 2008 at 12:35 pmCould make Think Progress commenters (excluding trolls, of course)
some kind of 'Super Delegates'?
If Queen Hillary is throned in November, do you really think she’s going to ban waterboarding? The answer is simple: NO.
Comment by Liberals Are Filled With Hate — February 15, 2008 @ 12:06 pm
Ya gotta love this one. Creates an hypothetical and uses it as an excuse to blast all of us. Dang, Li'l Feller, yer good... fer nothin'.
Mr P clean-up on the Lieberman/Waterboarding thread. Follow yer nose.
February 15th, 2008 at 12:35 pmComment by Liberals Are Filled With Hate — February 15, 2008 @ 12:06 pm
Ya gotta love this one. Creates an hypothetical and uses it as an excuse to blast all of us. Dang, Li’l Feller, yer good… fer nothin’.
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — February 15, 2008 @ 12:35 pm
Yeah, that's one of my favorites in the troll playbook too.
February 15th, 2008 at 12:39 pmOK, I took so long writing my comment that when I finally posted I see the Stepford trolls have come to drag the level of discourse down to their level.
So much for this thread.
The Bill Bunkers of this world are hopelessly invested in this low-life effort to somehow make rational people think the same sick way they do. In the words of Bush senior: "Not gonna happen...".
AMF!
February 15th, 2008 at 12:50 pmYour partisan hatred for Bush has clouded your judgement on issues important to the security of this nation.
Comment by Liberals Are Filled With Hate — February 15, 2008 @ 1:00 pm
Yeah, I usually take real seriously accusations of "partisan hatred" from a troll who identifies itself with a moniker like "Someone is Filled With Hate".
Thanks for the thought.
February 15th, 2008 at 1:05 pmYes Daryll, if that is what it took to get the necessary information to protect American lives, that is what I would do. However, I would not water board to get the information. There are two reasons for this:
1. Practical. I love it the way that people like you (who are full of hate and profess a knowledge far beyond your training, education and experience) will tell us how effective water boarding is in providing real intelligence. I am sorry, but I have been a prosecutor, an officer in the Air Force and actually represented some of the organizations that were a little more involved in this.
a. Torture rarely provides good information. It will make people break and confess to whatever their captors want them to confess to. That is why water boarding was invented as part of the Inquisition (to get people to confess to being heretics or witches.) The Soviets used torture to extract confessions of various crimes against the state. So did the Vietnamese (McCain), the Japanese and the Nazis. However, I have never really seen torture used to provide good, actionable intelligence. Sheikh Khalid was given the tender mercies of water boarding. The FBI involved in the interrogation noted that when the aggressive forms of interrogation were applied, the information became highly unreliable.
b. Proper interrogation techniques takes time and information. You have to be able to box in the person you are interrogating. They have to understand that you already know a lot of information concerning their activities and their organization. You seek to catch them in several lies. After some time, they believe that it is useless to deceive because you already know the information or will find it out soon. This does not mean that you are gentle with the subject, but you do not break the subject as through torture. You want the subject rationale and capable of providing good answers.
c. I have interrogated many criminals. They can be pretty hard cases. However, your typical terrorist is a harder case. We always went through the initial lies. We would catch them through inconsistencies, contradiction with physical evidence or co-conspirator statements. Soon, we would have them singing. However, I saw any number of instances in which we would lose valuable time and even cases because an over bearing interrogation would break the suspect and we would get what the interrogator wanted to hear as opposed to the truth.
d. Every professional agrees that torture does not provide good intelligence. However, I can see where those who broke international and US law to use the technique would claim differently. Too bad that the real results are secret not only from the public but also congressional oversight committees.
2. Moral: We keep talking about what distinguishes the United States from our enemies. The first word is that we are not terrorists and that we are not radical. Torture is a terrorist tactic. The use of it simply destroys that argument. We have seen the appeal of terrorist groups grow with the revelations of Abu Ghraib. We have seen a country turn from the rule of law to the belief that any tactic should be used. However, the most damaging attack on our public morality comes from the hatred that we see in those like Daryl. The desire for revenge. The desire to treat the enemy as less than human. It was that attitude after WWI that led to the Nazi's and WWII. We treated our enemies after WWII with respect and justice. Gosh, these were the Nazi's who killed the Jews and the Japanese who gave the Batan death march. Indeed, there was justice for the Nazi's and Japanese who committed crimes against humanity. They were tried and executed. One of the offenses that led to their execution: interrogations conducted by water boarding.
Daryl: The most effective interrogation tool use on high value Nazi prisoners during WWII? A glass of brandy and a nice game of chess with an interrogator.
February 15th, 2008 at 1:22 pmWhat I don't understand is how the repubs can come to this with the support of the good church-going people who refer to themselves as the "Moral Majority."
February 15th, 2008 at 1:23 pmmore like "feral majority", all whipped up on "hatriotism"
February 15th, 2008 at 1:25 pmComment by JMOHR — February 15, 2008 @ 1:22 pm
Thanks for that excellent dispatch, JMOHR.
Daryll won't get spit out it, but I certainly did.
February 15th, 2008 at 1:27 pmDaryll - I only have one answer for you:
“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.†(Matt 7:15-23)
February 15th, 2008 at 1:35 pm93 - I almost hope that the newly-elected D President uses the executive powers accumulated by the Cheerleader Prince to put people like you (Vichy-Americans) in places like Gitmo for your hateful and treasonous behavior. Truly, you deserve worse, but I'm on the side of civilization and justice, so I wouldn't recommend it.
February 15th, 2008 at 1:40 pm#90 - answer the question. Do you really think Hillary or Obama are going to ban waterboarding. The answer is NO.
I almost hope a liberal wins this fall so we can actually win the WOT. Your partisan hatred for Bush has clouded your judgement on issues important to the security of this nation.
Comment by Liberals Are Filled With Hate — February 15, 2008 @ 1:00 pm
Someone naming themself "Liberals Are Filled With Hate" is laughably prattling on about "partisan hatred" aimed at Shrub ?
You mean like you 20%'ers , who called everyone that was opposed from the very beginning of the installing of a moronic life-long failure in the White House and his subsequent illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq , "anti-American(s)" , "terrorists" , "terrorist sympathizers" , al Qeada members/operatives and other such niceties ?
BTW
February 15th, 2008 at 1:44 pmCan you or any member of the Chimpy Adoration Brigade please explain the basis behind claiming a military deserting moron and a 5 deferrment coward as somehow now being national security experts ?
.
So Holy Joe thinks it's not torture when America does it.
.
February 15th, 2008 at 1:52 pmNo, it's like putting water in their DROWNING LUNGS you NAZI PIECE OF SH*T ASSH*LE - LIEBERMAN! Didn't you LEARN ANYTHING from the Nuremberg trials where waterboarding got people EXECUTED? Are you actually DUMB ENOUGH to think only Nazism is bad if it's applied to JEWS? What a RACIST LITTLE PIG! I'm SO GLAD you're no longer a Democrat you HATEFUL FREAK!
February 15th, 2008 at 2:01 pmI would appoint Lieberman to be the one to apologize to the families of the American military officers from the Phillipine Insurection and the War in Viet Nam for the fact that they were courtmarshalled for performing waterboarding on prisoners.
Lieberman should also apologize to the family of the Japanese Imperial Army officer who was executed after WWII for performing waterboarding on American prisoners of war and certainly to the families of the former Nazi officers found guilty at the Nuremberg trials of using the proceedure on American prisoners.
If it's not a crime of torture today, then it certainly wasn't during the War in Viet Nam or WWII, right?
February 15th, 2008 at 2:04 pmCan you or any member of the Chimpy Adoration Brigade please explain the basis behind claiming a military deserting moron and a 5 deferrment coward as somehow now being national security experts ?
Comment by MCMetal
Perfectly stated! Thanks MC. The last gasp 24%r's think they are military wizards - not the incompetent chickenhawks they really are.
February 15th, 2008 at 2:05 pmJesus has always given consequences to those that have deliberately sinned. How else will we obtain sensitive information?
Comment by Daryll — February 15, 2008 @ 12:07 pm
Well then, what did Jesus say about terrorists?
WHO WOULD JESUS TORTURE?
WHO DID JESUS SAY TO KILL?
WHO WOULD JESUS BOMB?
Use Jesus as your excuse to endorse a behavior that causes pain and anguish. Yes, Jesus may have always handed out His consequences for sinners, but to really suggest that you're doing His Justice by acting like Jesus would... means you desire to be like Jesus and have His power and Glory and the knowledge of God so as to determine who is and isn't a sinner that deserves punishment. You then become nothing but a delusional Christian that thinks acting like God not only brings you closer to God but actually into a god.
Christian? Or a wool sack cloth worn to blend in with the Lords flock?
.
February 15th, 2008 at 2:09 pmOK Daryl, where are you now. Let us hear a response.
February 15th, 2008 at 2:13 pmI think Daryl has been exorcised. See comment #99.
February 15th, 2008 at 2:20 pmA Zionist supporting the torture of Arabs?
The mind boggles.
February 15th, 2008 at 2:42 pmPlease notice that the antagonistic trolls have yet to respond to my challenge.
February 15th, 2008 at 4:42 pmSurprising? No.
Unexpected? No.
Their silence? Priceless, and quite informative!
"Ol' Rubber Hose" Joe: According to the Connecticut Post, Lieberman downplayed the severity of the waterboarding because it doesn’t inflict permanent physical damage:
"If it doan leave no marks, it's not torture....."
Cheers,
February 15th, 2008 at 4:48 pmIn the worst case scenario — when there is an imminent threat of a nuclear attack on American soil — Lieberman said that the president should be able to certify the use of waterboarding on a detainee suspected of knowing vital details of the plot.
Whether it should be done for the "Ticking Time Bomb" (in those situations where there truly is such) is a quite different prospect from whether it should be legal.
What's far worse than that is to invoke the "TTB" for the legalisation of a procedure, so that there's no consequences for torturing a person to save the world ... or just because you felt like it. Once the maladministration manages to "define" wateroarding as "not torture" and thus legal, it's not just legal for the exceptional circumstances where the shortsighted might argue "necessity" (or "greater good"), but rather for all circumstances.
Cheers,
February 15th, 2008 at 4:55 pm#58 Daryll:
My, you're the consummate troll. I suspect a spoof, but with REthuglicans nowadays, ya never know...
"I guarantee you that Jesus is not pleased as well."
Ummm, rrrrriiigghht you are. WWJWB, indeed?
Cheers,
February 15th, 2008 at 5:03 pmPsychological impact is dangerous. Sorry Joe. The Dorsal Vega Nerve can become turned on and not turn off. This nerve is a primitive part of our nervous system which when activated, prepares us to essentially be eaten without pain. This nerve activates a "freeze" response instead of fight of flight. Being in a state of constant "freeze" response, via the Dorsal Vega Nerve, is damaging and can cause physical problems.
But what do the subhumans care about humanity?
February 15th, 2008 at 5:29 pmThat's Dorsal Vegal Nerve.
February 15th, 2008 at 5:30 pm@Daryll, 6/10 for your trolling, with a credit for the poetic:
Study the collected works of jerryleecooper once more time and come back with a sightly more original self-contradictory position.
February 15th, 2008 at 8:25 pmWe should be turning this the other way around and asking these government officials to spell out the situations when they think it would be OK for our soldiers to be water-boarded.
For instance: Mr. Leiberman, you've been leading the charge to threaten Iran with attack. Given that, would you say that it would have been ok for the Iranians to have named the British soldiers they captured "enemy combatants" in their waters, and then proceeded to water-board them?
Please Mr. Leiberman answer clearly so everyone can hear you... because that is what you are actually outlining here when you condone the use of torture under "certain circumstances."
February 15th, 2008 at 8:56 pmDAMMIT!
I can't BELIEVE my country LET'S THESE BASTARDS dictate our policies.
not only did we REMOVE the US from Canada's DFAIT's torture manual (aka "torturing nations list")... but we're now to remove Israel & Mexico...
on NO!!!, that wasn't ENOUGH... my government also jumped to issue a statement on the same day as Maxime Bernier's apologetic statement... indicating Canada wishes to participate in the US FBI's international Server in the Sky program.
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I feel sick.
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~~~
Spread Love...
BlueBerry Pick'n
February 17th, 2008 at 6:42 pmcan be found @
ThisCanadian
~~~
"We, two, form a Multitude" ~ Ovid.
~~~
"Silent Freedom is Freedom Silenced"
I would appoint Lieberman to be the one to apologize to the families of the American military officers from the Phillipine Insurection and the War in Viet Nam for the fact that they were courtmarshalled for acer squ-202 battery,acer btp-650 battery performing waterboarding on prisoners.
Lieberman should also apologize to the family of the Japanese Imperial Army officer who was executed after WWII for performing waterboarding on American prisoners of war and certainly to the families of the former Nazi officers found guilty at the Nuremberg trials of using the proceedure on American prisoners.
October 15th, 2008 at 2:26 am