One of the right wing’s favorite anti-immigrant claims is that immigrants are dangerous and commit high levels of crime. A new report by the nonpartisan Public Policy Institute of California, however, finds that these claims are baseless:
“In California, as in the rest of the nation, immigrants … have extremely low rates of criminal activity,” said Kristin Butcher, a co-author of the report, “Crime, Corrections and California: What Does Immigration Have to Do With It?”
Available data, the report’s authors said, “suggest that long-standing fears of immigration as a threat to public safety are unjustified.”
Starting with the fact that immigrants make up 35 percent of the state’s adult population but only 17 percent of its prisoners, researchers said they discovered several “striking” findings.
well duh, they dont want to rock the boat…
February 26th, 2008 at 11:18 amOoops. *Another* Republican talking point bites the dust….
February 26th, 2008 at 11:21 amAnd GOOPers are off the F-in’ charts!
February 26th, 2008 at 11:23 amImmigrants are no more criminal than anyone else, perhaps they even less so. However, illegal immigrants are criminal at the at the time of entry, and that fact cannot be denied.
So says the law.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:24 amWell, to be fair, Marcus, it comes w/ the territory.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:26 amWell, who actually thinks facts ever factor into the Republican agenda anyway?
February 26th, 2008 at 11:26 amConservatives are not anti-immigration.
Comment by good_golly — February 26, 2008 @ 11:25 am
However, and sadly, ELECTED conservatives seem to be engaging in criminal acts at an astonishing clip these days.
Can anybody here say RICO???
February 26th, 2008 at 11:27 amOr even “thinking”, Wayne.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:28 am…researchers said they discovered several “striking” findings.
One was the very low crime rate among young immigrant men without high school diplomas, especially when compared to U.S.-born male youths with low education levels.
Native-born women, the study said, are four times more likely to find themselves in prison than women born in other countries.
The report also found that California cities with high levels of recent immigration have lower crime rates.
wow… take that back to troll-central, troolls…
your fears are baseless… now we all know…
February 26th, 2008 at 11:28 amImmigrants are no more criminal than anyone else, perhaps they even less so. However, illegal immigrants are criminal at the at the time of entry, and that fact cannot be denied.
So says the law.
Comment by Marcus Aurelius — February 26, 2008 @ 11:24 am
A racist law.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:30 am“For most of its findings, the study did not distinguish between immigrants who are citizens, permanent legal residents or those who entered the U.S. illegally. Instead, it looked all immigrants, defined as people born in another country. Because the undocumented make up an estimated 28 percent of the state’s immigrants, the authors indicated that the results are nearly the same for that group, too.”
Except, they don’t know how many undocumented there actually are, so this “estimation” is highly suspect. Especially in a transfer state like California.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:30 amThey do, I did a research paper on it.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:31 amOne might suspect, that once in this country illegally, one might just work quietly, under the radar, so as not to do something that would get one deported back to one’s country of origin.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:33 amConservatives are not anti-immigration. Conservatives are pro-immigration but against illegal immigration.
Comment by good_golly — February 26, 2008 @ 11:25 am
Except, of course, if they can profit from paying them substandard wages and working them for 16 hours a day.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:34 amYour people have been using illegal immigration to boost the rate of crime among immigrant goonie, do you even know how to read anything besides headlines.
And I don’t worry about getting mugged by illegal immigration dumbass. And everybody who hires an illegal immigrant is also guilty of breaking the law and is also considered a criminal then dumbass.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:34 amSince many crimes go unreported, especially in areas that see large numbers of undocumented aliens passing through on a regular basis, and the fact they’re lumping legals and illegals together to get this result, I don’t find this particular study to be very convincing.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:35 am“One might suspect, that once in this country illegally, one might just work quietly, under the radar, so as not to do something that would get one deported back to one’s country of origin.”
Comment by RUCerious
Or, join “la Em,” or any number of street gangs.
Or start their own. In the barrios, they do it for self-protection.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:37 amLower crime rate in the 18 to 40 demography
February 26th, 2008 at 11:38 amOfftopic:
I just got an email from Chris Dodd stating he is endorsing Barack Obama for President.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:38 amShould be hitting the news soon.
Since many crimes go unreported, especially in areas that see large numbers of undocumented aliens passing through on a regular basis, and the fact they’re lumping legals and illegals together to get this result, I don’t find this particular study to be very convincing.
Comment by barfly — February 26, 2008 @ 11:35 am
This is a good point - many crimes go unreported in these areas because these “illegal human beings” are afraid to talk to the police thanks to the anti-immigrant movement. If we’d stop demonizing “illegal human beings” and treat all immigrants with basic human dignity, perhaps we’d find that undocumented immigrants are far more often the victims of crime than the perpetrators.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:38 amUnfortunately I am 1800 dollars poorer due to some immigrants that I was helping out with labor, was paying them 15 dollars an hour and they decided that stealing from me was easier. So, I am a bit more careful about who I hire now.
Buck Fush
February 26th, 2008 at 11:38 amand treat all immigrants with basic human dignity, perhaps we’d find that undocumented immigrants are far more often the victims of crime than the perpetrators.
Comment by toasterhead
But is soooo much fun to isolate them and blame them…
February 26th, 2008 at 11:42 amBuckie, how much of that $1800 do you figure was karma tax?
February 26th, 2008 at 11:42 amRacist? How so?
February 26th, 2008 at 11:42 amLet’s not confuse issues by bringing facts into consideration!
February 26th, 2008 at 11:44 amCriminals come in every race, creed, color, sex…
Speaking of crimes, check out this Bush crime against the people of the San Francisco Bay Area:
Please read the following paragraphs about how the Bush regime plans to do aerial pesticide spraying on cities in the San Francisco Bay Area this summer. Then decide if the Bush regime is (a) Insane, (b) Stupid, (c) Evil, or (d) All of the above.
(E)-11-Tetradecen-1-yl acetate, (E,E)-9,11-Tetradecadien-1-yl-acetate, cross-linked polyurea polymer, butylated hydroxyltoluene, polyvinyl alcohol, tricaprylyl methyl ammonium chloride, sodium phosphate, ammonium phosphate, 1,2-benzisothiozolin-3-one, 2-hydroxyl-4–n-octtyloxy-benzophenone.* These are some of the ingredients in CheckMate LBAM-F, which the U. S. Dept. of Agriculture (USDA) and the California Dept. of Food and Agriculture (CDFA) are planning to use in a massive aerial pesticide spraying over San Francisco Bay Area cities this summer to sexually harass a small moth, specifically, the Light Brown Apple Moth (LBAM) (Epiphyas postvittana).
This proposed aerial pesticide spraying of whole cities in the San Francisco Bay Area is a hysterial over-reaction by the incompetent Bush regime to a hypothetical problem. The Light Brown Apple Moth (LBAM) (Epiphyas postvittana), a native of Australia, has been present in New Zealand, New Caledonia, Hawai’i and England for many years. The residents and the farmers of these regions have been able to co-exist with this moth without having to resort to massive aerial pesticide spraying of whole cities and towns.
So far, not a single apple growing in commercial orchards in Northern California has been found to be visited by this moth. Over six hundred residents of the Santa Cruz and Monterey areas have reported new health problems after the aerial spraying of the Checkmate brand pesticide over their towns last year.
Just say no to proposed aerial pesticide spraying over cities in the San Francisco Bay Area against this small moth scheduled for this summer. We need to work on low-key biological controls for the Light Brown Apple Moth (LBAM) (Epiphyas postvittana) instead. There is no legitimate reason for the government to put the health of millions of people at risk with pesticide spraying of the air we breathe.
Visit web sites such as http://www.lbamspray.com, http://www.stopthespray.org and http://www.hopefortruth.com for more detailed information and suggestion on how to protest this absurd plan.
Very truly yours,
James K. Sayre
* Listed in the column of Richard Fagerlund, aka, Ask the Bugman, in the Home & Garden Section, San Francisco Chronicle, 23 February 2008.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:46 amNot quite. Everybody who KNOWINGLY hires an illegal immigrant is also guilty of breaking the law. Those who in good faith follow government requirements to check documentation are generally not charged if an illegal slips through.
Comment by good_golly — February 26, 2008 @ 11:42 am
It is the responsibility of the employer to check the papers of any employee before hiring him. Before Bush they used to do “raids” on business to make sure workers had them. ANYBODY who hires anybody for anything is supposed to make sure they are legal even if it somebody cutting your grass. Otherwise you are breaking the law, dumbass.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:47 amRacist? How so?
Comment by Marcus Aurelius — February 26, 2008 @ 11:42 am
The 1965 Immigration Law was designed to ensure continued influx of Northern Europeans got in, while minimizing undesirable Mediterranean Europeans and excluding the really undesirable Asians and Jews. It did this by favoring family members of people already in the United States and people with professional skills, who were more likely to be found in Northern European countries.
http://www.npr.org/ templates/ story/ story.php?storyId=5391395
February 26th, 2008 at 11:48 amAs far as unreported crime goes there’s plenty among legal residents and citizens of this country. If you call the Chicago cops and there’s no body on the floor nobody ever shows up.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:49 amBuckie, how much of that $1800 do you figure was karma tax?
Comment by RUCerious
Hehehe.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:49 amThose who live in the border areas can attest that while undocumented immigrants tend to lead cautious, law-abiding existences, they also will break certain laws to exist - such as car-licencing, and insurance. At least six times a year someone is killed in San Diego by colliding with a coyote driving with his lights off, or by someone here illegally, driving without insurance.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:51 amThe problem is that we treat immigration as a legal problem. It’s not. It’s a problem of economics and trade. We can’t dump millions of tons of corn on Mexico and then wonder why so many unskilled laborers are migrating north to find work.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:52 amAre you telling me that the repugs would use a talking point that is really false…?
Say it ain’t so!
You mean there might not be any merit to the TV commercial that’s been airing here about how endangered we all are due to the dems not passing immunity for telecoms…?
Wow, knock me over with a feather. Repugs lie. Who’d a thunk it?
Snark/off
February 26th, 2008 at 11:52 amI lived in California for years and found that immigrants (legal or “illegal”) were very careful to follow the laws of our land. The ones who were not “legal” want to stay under the radar, so they are especially careful. I also found that they drive really slow! It used to drive my batty when I commuted on Highway 12 from Santa Rosa to Sonoma and got behind one of them. They usually drove 10-15 mph under the speed limit. One time when I worked in a winery I would tell them that they made themselves more conspicuous when they drove too slow! For a while they were able to get driver’s licenses in California and therefore they got insurance. I’m not sure that is still the case, though.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:54 am“It is not my legal responsibility to check the papers of every one of their employees that comes over to my house to cut my grass when I am not there.”
Comment by good_golly
But you used the company, knowing their record?
February 26th, 2008 at 11:55 amAt least six times a year someone is killed in San Diego by colliding with a coyote driving with his lights off, or by someone here illegally, driving without insurance.
Comment by barfly — February 26, 2008 @ 11:51 am
So what’s the best way to solve this problem? Continue to demonize immigrants with xenophobic laws that force them further into the shadows, or grant them some kind of interim legal status that lets them get car insurance and allows them to drive safely instead of being a public hazard?
February 26th, 2008 at 11:55 amIf this has already been noted, my apologies, but it seems that immigrants commit less crimes that republicans, by a long shot.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:55 amThe problem is that we treat immigration as a legal problem. It’s not. It’s a problem of economics and trade.
Comment by toasterhead
The problem is that people tend to think more about consequences than causes. So, we are talking about how illegals tend to do this or that, but no word about economic structures promoted by US financial institutions (IMF, WorldBank) ripping apart poor countries in the name of good old free trade.
No, it is ok, almost elegant, to plunder other people’s reasources but it is disgusting letting illegal workers into the country. I won’t even speak about the treatment that Central Americans received in the south border of Mexico.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:57 amhow does a law which enforces the rules around legal immigration become a rascist law? It seems to be the convenient use of the term rascist for the violation of a law to which legal immigrants subscribe and pay dearly to achieve legal status. What do you know comprehend about breaking the law? It seems to me that the hypocrisy right her with illegal immigrants breaking the law somehow are condoned by this group - yet, in speaking from both sides of the mouth, turn right around and condem members of congress for breaking our laws. Which is it anyway?
February 26th, 2008 at 11:57 amand some of us have the audacity to cite John McCain and others for breaches in the law and capitalizing on loopholes. For shame, ye hypocrite!
February 26th, 2008 at 11:59 amComment by toasterhead
I’m for an “interim legal status,” that requires them to pay a nominal fee into a fund, to offset damage caused by undocumented aliens.
Fair enough?
February 26th, 2008 at 12:00 pmYour premise is incorrect. Conservatives are not anti-immigration. Conservatives are pro-immigration but against illegal immigration.
As usual, our resident moron troll is wrong. Conservatives are not against illegal immigration. Without the undocumented workers, who is going to mow their lawns and take care of their children at slave wages? Perhaps if they were willing to pay a fair price for the work they wanted done, someone who is a citizen of this country would be willing to work for them.
If Conservatives were truly against “illegal” immigration, they would be clamoring to have the companies who knowingly hire illegals prosecuted and the owners of the companies put in jail. That is the only thing that will stop immigrants from coming across the border. If there are no jobs here for them, they won’t come.
The one form of immigration the Conservatives support are immigrants who come in this country on H1 Visas. These are Visas that are given to foreign workers to take jobs when the companies can’t find anyone in this country to do the job. So. companies like Microsoft, Hewlett Packard, etc, advertise programmer and engineering jobs for $12.00 an hour. Since that is roughly half the starting salary for those jobs, they can’t find anyone in this country to take the job. So, they get their H1 visa and get to hire someone from India for half what the going wage is for the job. It is the most abused system in this country and it needs to stop. We not only send our good jobs over seas, we also bring people into the company to take good jobs that should be going to our citizens.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:01 pmI won’t even speak about the treatment that Central Americans received in the south border of Mexico.
Comment by Juan C. — February 26, 2008 @ 11:57 am
Or that Central Americans receive in slave labor camps in Florida and other southern states that grow our fruits and vegetables. And thanks to the recent wave of xenophobia in this country, the police in these states are unable to break up the rings of traffickers and slaveowners because the enslaved Guatemalans and Oxacans and Chiapans are more afraid of the police than the people holding them captive.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:02 pmIt is not my legal responsibility to check the papers of every one of their employees that comes over to my house to cut my grass when I am not there.
Comment by good_golly — February 26, 2008 @ 11:52 am
Perfect example of “conservative” thinking at work. Squawk like mad about illegal immigration but take no accountability at all for encouraging illegal immigration by employing them. And then parse that like crazy, “Hey, it’s not my responsibility to blah blah blah.”
February 26th, 2008 at 12:02 pmOnce again, not quite. Let’s say that as a homeowner, I hire XYZ corp. to cut my grass. It is the legal responsibility of XYZ corp. to make sure that its employees are not illegal immigrants. It is not my legal responsibility to check the papers of every one of their employees that comes over to my house to cut my grass when I am not there.
Comment by good_golly — February 26, 2008 @ 11:52 am
”
You are prohibited from using employment agencies or contractors that you know or “should know” employ illegal immigrants. The “should know” is what the government refers to as “constructive knowledge.”
Here dumbass, as usual you don’t know what you’re talking about. Oh and FYI, your landscaper is a contractor.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:04 pmThomas jefferson said that Government is by the permission of the governed.
Things tough in your home country? Change your government.
We need to stop importing people and start exporting our Constitution - quaint as it is.
This is not racism, nor is it poor people being put upon. It’s immigration law, and it serves a reasonable purpose.
Maybe we should start allowing the Chinese to immigrate to the US in unchecked numbers.
To get in, you have to follow the rules. All of the rules.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:04 pmI don’t think this conversation can go any further without an obvious level of hypocrisy being outed. We have laws, n’est pas? They are broken which means someone has done something illegal. This is the end of any legitimate discussion. This discussion is separate from the one concerning what to do with those here who have broken the law to get here. If we’re going to trash McCain and the reichwingnuts for their criminal activities, then it’s essential that we be fair across the board. Our rule of exists and when breached becomes a criminal act. If we condone one group for breaking the law and not others, are we not throwing stones from glass houses. If we cannot rise above our own personal biases as we claim the Repubs do, then are we not just like them?
If we can agree on the fact that the rule of law is being abridged daily by the Bush administration, why is it so difficult for us to accept that some of these people here illegally have done the very same thing? If we cannot establish that the laws of this government are here for a purpose, then let’s just permit the GOP to run roughshod as they have done in an attempt to excuse illegal immigration. If one cannot see the inherent hypocrisy in this thinking then it’s apparent that logical though processes are absent from this thread.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:05 pmam for them going back where they came from, applying for legal immigration status, and only coming back when they are granted that legal status. Fair enough?
Comment by good_golly
And who pays the transportation costs? They have been good hypothetical citizens, and accumulated mucho hypothetical wealth. Do you think they should just all have one big garage sale to get rid of their legally acquired possessions?
February 26th, 2008 at 12:06 pmBuckie, how much of that $1800 do you figure was karma tax?
Comment by RUCerious
Not funny, I am a really good person, I buy them breakfast, I buy them lunch, l work along side them. But I feel for the, “Could you get us some Gatoraid.” I ran up to the store, when I came back 1800 dollars worth of tools were gone and so were they, I don’t like being taken advantage of when I am trying hard to help others.
Buck Fush
February 26th, 2008 at 12:06 pmMarcus: Agreed. The rules exist for ALL of us. If we begin to exempt one group from following them, then we must exempt all in total fairness. But ultimately it’s not up to us. Just as the criminal Repubs will one day be brought to justice, so, in some small way (fines or penalties at least), must these folks.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:06 pmI’m for an “interim legal status,†that requires them to pay a nominal fee into a fund, to offset damage caused by undocumented aliens.
Fair enough?
Comment by barfly — February 26, 2008 @ 12:00 pm
Fair enough. Call it a processing fee or something. I just believe very strongly that it’d help solve the problems of gang activity and wage slavery if the undocumented had the ability to become documented and could trust the police.
The conservatives will label this “amnesty,” of course, but I’m fine with that.
Then we can renegotiate NAFTA and work on the supply side.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:07 pmJust check out the closing ER’s in the state of Texas if you want to see what’s happening.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:07 pmOr, join “la Em,†or any number of street gangs.
Or start their own. In the barrios, they do it for self-protection.
Comment by barfly
So barfly, do you live in or near a city with a large immigrant population or are you just speaking from the talking points that the RNC puts out?
I lived around immigrants for 25+ years and never saw immigrant street gangs. For the most part, they stayed in the shadows and minded their own business.
And regarding your previous post about them committing crimes that were not reported. Do you have any hard facts to back up that statement? Because, again, I didn’t see that where I lived.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:07 pmI understand, toaster. All of the Spaniards Hotels in the Mayan Riviera (Cancun, Tulum, etc.) are being built with slavework. Some weeks ago I was reading National Geographic about the conditions of Hondurans and Guatemalans crossing the south border of Mexico…what a great world we are.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:08 pmSo, these people come here to be enslaved? The legal concept of contributory negligence would seem to apply here.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:08 pmIt’s apparent that something must be done. Rounding them up and deporting them is NOT a humane method for dealing with a problem enabled by the Bush Cabal. However, on the other hand, these folks knew they were violating the laws in this country by coming here illegally so they expect a fine or penalty of some sort. Cracking down on the employers will help rein in this problem as well as to bring some jobs back to american workers whose lifelihoods have been adversely affected by our pourous borders and slave labor.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:09 pmI am for them going back where they came from, applying for legal immigration status, and only coming back when they are granted that legal status. Fair enough?
Comment by good_golly — February 26, 2008 @ 12:02 pm
And I’m all for you going back to where you came from. Do you think you could find that rock you were under?
February 26th, 2008 at 12:10 pmThings tough in your home country? Change your government.
Comment by Marcus Aurelius — February 26, 2008 @ 12:04 pm
Funny you should mention this. For many immigrants from Latin America, things are tough in their home countries BECAUSE we’ve changed their governments and installed right-wing dictators who served the interests of United Fruit and other corporations.
Details, details…
February 26th, 2008 at 12:10 pmthat requires them to pay a nominal fee into a fund, to offset damage caused by undocumented aliens.
Comment by barfly
Native Americans must be expecting loads of money, then…
February 26th, 2008 at 12:11 pmNot quite. Everybody who KNOWINGLY hires an illegal immigrant is also guilty of breaking the law. Those who in good faith follow government requirements to check documentation are generally not charged if an illegal slips through.
Everyone who hires an illegal is knowingly doing it. If they checked the documentation given to them, they would immediately know that they were hiring an illegal. They just don’t check the documentation. I worked for someone who hired illegals and she wanted me to take a very bad photo copy of the driver’s license they presented (because the picture was not the person they were hiring), and to sign the form saying I verified their documentation. I refused to do it and made her do it. That’s what many employers do, at least the ones that make a pretense of checking documentation.
As I said before, arrest the people hiring the illegals and the “problem” will immediately go away.
I really do wish that every undocumented worker would one day walk off their job and stay off their jobs for a week. The result would have a huge negative impact on our economy, especially in the tourist industry. There would be no one to wash dishes in restaurants and no one to clean rooms in hotels.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:11 pmThis is not their country; what’s more, most of them send their paychecks back to Mexico to their families which supports the mexican economy and not the american economy. Many whom I’ve spoken with really dispise america but are using it illegally as a means to an end. Do they really want citizen status? Many of them do not and never intended to immigrate legally in the first place. It’s all about the money.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:11 pmGG leaves out the part where Republican politicians openly pander to the basest xenophobic and racist instincts of the 24%ers. Immigration is just like abortion to them: make big promises to the uneducated buffoons in their coalition, all the while knowing they will never have to deliver on these promises.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:12 pmBilbo: I agree with you. Stop the employers (Bush’s fascistas) and you will put an end to illegal border crossing as well as the immediate return of these people to the country they love - Mexico.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:12 pmThe story states “One of the right wing’s favorite anti-immigrant…”
But should be corrected to “One of the right wing’s favorite anti-illegal immigrant “
February 26th, 2008 at 12:13 pmIf we’d stop demonizing “illegal human beings†and treat all immigrants with basic human dignity, perhaps we’d find that undocumented immigrants are far more often the victims of crime than the perpetrators.
Comment by toasterhead
Very good point. That was my experience, that they were more often victims of crimes than the perpetrators of crimes. There was a high school gang in one city in Sonoma County who used to “roll” immigrants (attack them and steal their money) because they knew that the crime would not be reported to the police and they would get away with it. They only got caught because they once rolled a legal immigrant who reported the crime.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:14 pmThey have no “legally acquired possessions” if they came into possession of them following the crime of illegal immigration. The penalty for any crime must surpass the potential profit made in committing the crime in the first place.
If the first act is criminal, all subsequent acts are tainted by criminality.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:14 pmThey tend to be employed, and enterprising as well. Heres another tidbit, almost every immigrant in the history of this nation is illegal the same way the current wave is. There was no “legal” immigration until recently. Really most of the recent laws smack of racism which is prevalent in the history of immigration.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:14 pmSo, toasterhead: Change your government.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:15 pmSo barfly, do you live in or near a city with a large immigrant population or are you just speaking from the talking points that the RNC puts out?
I lived around immigrants for 25+ years and never saw immigrant street gangs. For the most part, they stayed in the shadows and minded their own business.
And regarding your previous post about them committing crimes that were not reported. Do you have any hard facts to back up that statement? Because, again, I didn’t see that where I lived.
Comment by bilbobaggins
I live in El Cajon, Ca, about thirty-five miles from the border - and I can say that property owners in the rural areas just to the south do indeed see crimes committed by illegals - who then re-cross the border at any one of over a hundred crossing points. There is also considerable undocumented gang activity in South San Diego, that gets reported on a regular basis in the local news. Another aspect is that many of these crimes are illegals on illegals - because they know their victims won’t report it. There are also several car-theft ring operating in the area, that takes stolen vehicles to Tijuana for stripping.
Did you live in a northern urban area?
February 26th, 2008 at 12:16 pmVerbalKint: Definitely so. The genesis for the GOP concern for illegal immigration is xenophobic and rascist - another hot button issue. Some of us actually have concerns for these people who have been solicited, pimped and used by the fascists to give the appearance that our economy is booming and the bottom line is actually positive. It’s another Bushitco tool to defraud the public.
How can Bush profess to be protecting this country and leave the backdoor wide open to anyone desiring to come across at his/her whim? It doesn’t compute. He created the problem and continued to fan the flames by seducing these poor people here to prop up his corporations and now will deny having done so. He’ll turn it around and use it against the Democrats in 08. Typical low-brow Bush mentality.
I don’t pretend to know what the answer is to these millions of people here illegally. What I do believe is that the only way to nip the problem and cull those who actually intend to proceed through legal immigration channels is to severe the employment and begin fining employers. Those who never intend to become citizens will vanish immediately and others will not be seduced by the lure of a job and money.
Then and only then can we begin to assess what the situation actually is and begin to develop thoughtful, humane solutions.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:17 pmNative Americans must be expecting loads of money, then…
Comment by Juan C.
Casinos, baby!
Cha-ching!!!
February 26th, 2008 at 12:18 pmAt least six times a year someone is killed in San Diego by colliding with a coyote driving with his lights off, or by someone here illegally, driving without insurance.
Comment by barfly
And this is an excellent reason for allowing undocumented workers to get a driver’s license. At one time they did that in California and these problems didn’t exist. If they had a driver’s license, they would have to have insurance because that’s how California law works. When they were allowed to get driver’s licenses, they got insurance. The only reason why they don’t get insurance now is because they can’t get insurance without a driver’s license.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:18 pmMoondancer: That’s why we developed a very successful immigration plan in this country. That was then/this is now. We have the law now. There was no law then.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:19 pmMS-13 is big business in Northern Virginia.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:19 pmThis is what you said first goofy:
Once again, not quite. Let’s say that as a homeowner, I hire XYZ corp. to cut my grass. It is the legal responsibility of XYZ corp. to make sure that its employees are not illegal immigrants. It is not my legal responsibility to check the papers of every one of their employees that comes over to my house to cut my grass when I am not there.
Comment by good_golly — February 26, 2008 @ 11:52 am
Then you shifted to say this:
If I hire a company with a good reputation for spending thousands in legal fees to make sure its workers are properly documented, then why should I be held responsible if one slips through the cracks and works on my lawn when I am not there? Such “strict liability†likely woudn’t hold up constitutionally. On the other hand, if the company was well known to hire illegals and I turned a blind eye, than I agree that I should have some responsibility. There has to be a degree of “mens rea.â€
Comment by good_golly — February 26, 2008 @ 12:05 pm
And the point is you accuse all illegals of committing a crime which they are whether they’re charged or not. And so are you whether you get charged or not. Criminal activity is not the same as getting convicted. So everybody who hires an illegal immigrant, when they should have a suspicion that person might not be legal has committed a crime and should be figured into the statistics. Get it?
February 26th, 2008 at 12:20 pmbarfly - So you live in San Diego. Do you have any idea what would happen to your city if every undocumented worker walked off their job tomorrow? Your tourist industry would collapse and many companies would be in serious financial jeopardy.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:20 pmDriver’s licenses imply legality. This is cart before the horse mentality.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:20 pm“And regarding your previous post about them committing crimes that were not reported. Do you have any hard facts to back up that statement? ”
Comment by bilbobaggins
I missed that the first time.
Good joke; “hard data” on unreported crimes…
February 26th, 2008 at 12:21 pmSo, these people come here to be enslaved? The legal concept of contributory negligence would seem to apply here.
Comment by Marcus Aurelius — February 26, 2008 @ 12:08 pm
No, they come here because they can’t find work in their home countries due in part to trade agreements or IMF structural adjustments, or they have a child sick with a disease that can only be treated with expensive imported medicines whose patents are owned by American or European companies.
So they come to the United States and hook up with a coyote who charges them an exorbitant fee to get them across the border. Then they have to find work. They may barely speak English - for many of these immigrants Spanish is a second or third language. The coyote or another fixer will hook them up with a plantation owner, who loans them the transportation money to get to the plantation, and loans them the money for their housing and other expenses. Then the plantation owner puts them to work for $10-15 per day, from which they have to pay their rent and pay back the loan to the plantation owner. Any money they have left goes to food or clothing or other necessities, which they purchase from a store owned by the plantation owner’s wife. They barely make enough money to support their debts, let alone send something home to their families. If they try to escape, they’ll be killed and disappeared. If they are caught talking to outsiders, they’ll be killed and disappeared.
It takes a real heartless bastard to call this “contributory negligence”
February 26th, 2008 at 12:21 pm#83 precisely why this problem has been exacerbated by Bush to this extent. Most citizens have lost their jobs to lower pay, no benefits, certainly no workman’s comp by the employer, and cashola under the table. It’s a win/win if one is a fascist.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:21 pmSo, toasterhead: Change your government.
Comment by Marcus Aurelius — February 26, 2008 @ 12:15 pm
They would, if Bechtel would let them.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:22 pmAs toaster said above, these people accept $10-$15 a day so it’s a no brainer to fire citizens and hire illegals. This IS the problem.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:22 pm“barfly - So you live in San Diego. ”
Ahh, the first whiff of petulance.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:23 pm50. Shayne. In this post you argue with me, but agree with me. We are saying the same thing, except I don’t throw in the “dumbass†comment that you like to throw out there on every post, and you don’t understand the meaning of the legal concept of “know or should know.â€
Comment by good_golly — February 26, 2008 @ 12:08 pm
I am NOT agreeing with you. I’m saying if you have a suspicion not everybody is legal and you haven’t checked you are guilty of criminal activity. You’re saying you won’t get charged and I’m saying you’re still guilty and should be figured into statistics of criminal activity, dumbass.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:24 pmIt’s criminal the way these people have been handled by our absent government who have looked away as these people have been pimped and continue to be used by their employers. It’s pretty easy to see why americans have lost their jobs and have been replaced by someone accepting slave payment for hard work and the employers raking in the profits of not having to provide worker’s comp, pay employee federal taxes, health care benefits, etc.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:25 pmSo, exploitation is okay, as long as there is profit to be made?
Without the illegals, prices and wages would go up to support a fair living wage (there are no jobs “Americans won’t do” - there are jobs that don’t pay enough to support a reasonable lifestyle), and unemployment would go down.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:25 pmI’m for an “interim legal status,†that requires them to pay a nominal fee into a fund, to offset damage caused by undocumented aliens.
Fair enough?
Comment by barfly
You want them to pay a fee for the privilege of working for what amounts to slave wages. How progressive of you.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:25 pmCasinos, baby!
Cha-ching!!!
Comment by barfly
Curiously, some days ago I was hearing this girl talking about how good was life to Native Americans in those casinos. I could only look at her thinking: wow, you are so stupid.
Change your government.
Comment by Marcus Aurelius
Funny you mention that. According to the 9/11 Comission 9/11 was the response of some bunch of people against imperialist acts by the US. If the US is installing governments and supporting opposition parties like in Venezuela or training future dictators in Fort Benning, GA, maybe the response against those acts could be another 9/11. And then you got a tape of a plane crashing into a NY building while a woman screams: OMG, OMG.
Then you go wonder why is this happening to us…
February 26th, 2008 at 12:25 pmYou want them to pay a fee for the privilege of working for what amounts to slave wages. How progressive of you.
Comment by bilbobaggins
And of couse all illegals are uneducated peons - how racist of you…
February 26th, 2008 at 12:27 pmAnd now, after looking the other way intentionally to create this problem (we know it was the plan for the 08 hot button issue by the GOPigs), the mexican people here will suffer at the hands of the sheer enablers who enabled their dilemma. Doesn’t this smack of Karl Rove?
If the government intends to crack down on employers as it is now threatening and is occurring right now, it’s only fair and equitabe to inform these people and given them a choice. If they’re serious about citizenship, then permit them to get on line with the other immigrants who are planning to be here legally, pay fines for breaking the law when they sneaked in, and move through the long, arduous process of citizenship in this country.
This is only fair.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:27 pmTo get in, you have to follow the rules. All of the rules.
Comment by Marcus Aurelius
So, how about we set up some fair rules so that they can follow them. Undocumented workers would love to have a way to legally work in this country.
Apparently you are another “anti-immigrant” proponent. Perhaps you can tell us where we are going to get the people to pick our fruits and vegetables, clean our hotel rooms and was our dishes in restaurants (just a few of the many jobs that “illegals” do in this country) once all the “illegals” are sent home?
February 26th, 2008 at 12:30 pmMS-13 is big business in Northern Virginia.
Comment by Marcus Aurelius — February 26, 2008 @ 12:19 pm
Which MS-13 is this? You mean the gang founded by former Farabundo Martà National Liberation Front (FMLN) members, who were fighting in the El Salvador Civil War against U.S.-funded government death squads? That MS-13?
Funny how these things come back to haunt us, eh?
February 26th, 2008 at 12:30 pmWho is talking about about legal immigrants? ILLEGAL immigrants have a 100% rate of crime since they are breaking the law being here.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:32 pmWell, now I’m a heartless bastard!
Sheesh.
Do you understand the concept of contributory negligence?
Your argument supports my point.
If they’re exploited and enslaved by coming here illegally, why do they come here illegally? Is slavery here any better than peonage there?
If you are hurt in an accident, through no driving fault of your own, while driving a stolen car, you have contributed to your own injury, because you shouldn’t have been driving the car in the first damn place - because stealing a car is illegal.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:33 pmYou want them to pay a fee for the privilege of working for what amounts to slave wages. How progressive of you.
Comment by bilbobaggins — February 26, 2008 @ 12:25 pm
Well, that’s not exactly how it would work if done right. By paying the fee, they’d get a legal status that would allow them to report abusive labor practices and join unions and not have to work for slave wages.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:33 pm“If we cannot establish that the laws of this government are here for a purpose, then let’s just permit the GOP to run roughshod as they have done in an attempt to excuse illegal immigration. If one cannot see the inherent hypocrisy in this thinking then it’s apparent that logical though processes are absent from this thread.’
Comment by satirev — February 26, 2008 @ 12:05 pm
Agreed. What’s wrong is wrong no matter who does it!
I have always said that if we impossed strict penalties on those that hire “illegals” it would dramatically reduce the number that pour in.
BTW, Bilbo, I used to work for a software services company and my job was to sell those indian (and sometimes pakistani) workers to companies. Those companies often times were not just computer companies but others with names and products as familiar to you as the nose on your face. It was great for a while and I was making really good money but we soon got into “outsorcing” which was the practice of those companies not just hiring 1 or 2 “contractors at half the cost of their “citizen” employees, but taking their entire IT/IS dept. off shore to our facility in India.
It soon got very difficult for me to look at myself in the mirror, realising that I was personally responsible for putting many people out of work at once. I quit and I sleep better at night for having done so. But I still know people in that industry and the practice continues to this day. So I’m pretty confident that my quitting had zero impact on the flood of foreign workers coming in or taking jobs off shore.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:34 pmWho is talking about about legal immigrants? ILLEGAL immigrants have a 100% rate of crime since they are breaking the law being here.
Comment by Roger_Roger — February 26, 2008 @ 12:32 pm
And everybody who hires one of them is also guilty of breaking the law. For every illegal hired one law is broken by the American hiring him.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:34 pmIf they’re exploited and enslaved by coming here illegally, why do they come here illegally? Is slavery here any better than peonage there?
Comment by Marcus Aurelius — February 26, 2008 @ 12:33 pm
Nope. That’s why the immigration law needs to be changed. Then they wouldn’t be lawbreakers.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:35 pmMarcus, we get it. You support the law. Which is good.
Some of us support justice.
Sad day when Roger Roger agrees with some of you.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:36 pm“barfly - So you live in San Diego. â€
Ahh, the first whiff of petulance.
Comment by barfly
And this is supposed to mean what?
pet·u·lant (pÄ›ch’É™-lÉ™nt) Pronunciation Key
adj.
1. Unreasonably irritable or ill-tempered; peevish.
2. Contemptuous in speech or behavior.
So what about my post was petulant?
February 26th, 2008 at 12:37 pmYou want them to pay a fee for the privilege of working for what amounts to slave wages. How progressive of you.
Comment by bilbobaggins
And of couse all illegals are uneducated peons - how racist of you…
Comment by barfly
You know barfly, you are really going off the rails on this one. Exactly what in what I said indicated I think that illegals are uneducated peons?
February 26th, 2008 at 12:38 pmComment by Marcus Aurelius — February 26, 2008 @ 12:25 pm
I agree, Marcus, there are no jobs Americans won’t do. That’s a right-wing talking point some progressives have unfortunately picked up. Only the businesses want us to believe nobody will do the work, while holding down the wages to validate their own point.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:38 pmbarfly - are you going to answer my question as to what would happen to your economy if every undocumented worker walked off their jobs tomorrow? Or is there an inconvenient truth in the answer?
February 26th, 2008 at 12:39 pmI agree, Marcus, there are no jobs Americans won’t do. That’s a right-wing talking point some progressives have unfortunately picked up. Only the businesses want us to believe nobody will do the work, while holding down the wages to validate their own point.
Comment by McWars — February 26, 2008 @ 12:38 pm
Have you ever done field work? Picked crops?
February 26th, 2008 at 12:41 pmabusive labor practices and join unions and not have to work for slave wages.
Comment by toasterhead — February 26, 2008 @ 12:33 pm
You did mention how the trade agreements in this country need to be reworked, even abolished, so that Mexico can have its economic heart beating again. That I still agree with, but a willingness to dump herds of permanent labors on American grounds will only give business an excess pool of labor. Therefore their membership in unions won’t mean very much because their bargaining power will be reduced.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:41 pmAlways after the profit behind exploitation, aren’t you?
The answer is that Americans and legal immigrants will do the jobs that need doing. And those jobs will pay enough to live on, because they are jobs that must be done.
bolbobaggins, rephrased: If the illegals are made to leave, how ever will I afford someone to do all of the nasty crap I need done? who will pick our veges for substandard wages?
No, I’m not “anti-immigrant.” I love the concept of America as the mixing bowl. I’m against illegal immigration. I’m also against the exploitation of human beings for your comfort and pleasure.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:43 pmYes. Funny.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:44 pmIt soon got very difficult for me to look at myself in the mirror, realising that I was personally responsible for putting many people out of work at once. I quit and I sleep better at night for having done so. But I still know people in that industry and the practice continues to this day. So I’m pretty confident that my quitting had zero impact on the flood of foreign workers coming in or taking jobs off shore.
Comment by TheRadicalRightisRadicallyWrong
Your quitting may have had zero impact on the problem, but it had an impact on you, so good on you!
I’m hoping that Obama takes care of the abuse of the H1 visas and does something to stop our jobs from going over seas. I was once a programmer and made good money at it. I am no longer doing that work because there are no jobs for me at a wage I could live on.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:45 pmHave you ever done field work? Picked crops?
Comment by gummitch — February 26, 2008 @ 12:41 pm
That’s not the right question since many jobs are challenging. If attach good pay to the billet, you will attract ready people with high, if not higher productivity.
I’m not going to play into the hands of right-wing talking points. Nothing against you, but I feel were making a mistake here. Mexicans really don’t want to leave their families to come here. They would like to make enough money locally. That’s where amending the trade agreements come in.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:46 pmSome interesting reading.
Our resident moronic troll doesn’t get it that we are not interested in reading his “interesting reading” since it always comes from right wing sights.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:47 pmI was once a programmer and made good money at it. I am no longer doing that work because there are no jobs for me at a wage I could live on.
Comment by bilbobaggins — February 26, 2008 @ 12:45 pm
I truly feel your pain, I just hope I didn’t contribute to it.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:48 pmIs that the Royal “we”?
Justice? Illegal immigration is not just. The social costs are a lose/lose scenario.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:50 pmComment by bilbobaggins — February 26, 2008 @ 12:45 pm
Very true. The H1B abuse has made a lot of students afraid to major in computer science these days.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:50 pmNo, I’m not “anti-immigrant.†I love the concept of America as the mixing bowl. I’m against illegal immigration. I’m also against the exploitation of human beings for your comfort and pleasure.
Comment by Marcus Aurelius
I am not “for” exploiting anyone for my comfort and pleasure. My point is that because so many companies hire undocumented workers, they are able to get away with paying basically slave wages for the jobs. If we had a system where immigrants could work their way towards legal status, or just come here as a “guest worker”, and have some rights and protections, those employers would no longer be able to exploit the workers and the cost of many of our goods (and our vacations) would go way up. I would be fine with that. I would be fine with the companies paying a fair wage for a job so that many of the unemployed in this country could go to work.
But, even if an employer paid $12-$15 an hour for picking grapes, I doubt that you would find many citizens of this country to do the job. There are still many jobs that are “too dirty” or “too messy” for many Americans to take. The employer I worked for who hired illegals actually paid a pretty decent wage ($8.00 an hour), but she was unable to find any legal citizens to do the job because it was very messy and dirty and was also very hard work. I don’t believe we will see Americans taking these kinds of jobs until we are in a depression and they either take jobs like that or starve to death.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:53 pmIllegal immigration is not just. The social costs are a lose/lose scenario.
Comment by Marcus Aurelius
Errr…you mean FORCED MIGRATION is not just.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:55 pm$12 - $15 per hour is not a living wage. Do. The. Math.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:56 pmNo, I mean illegal immigration.
Forced migration is a pogrom, or like we did to the Iraqis who fled for their lives to Syria.
I fear you’re turning into a hyperbolistic drama queen.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:58 pmYou did mention how the trade agreements in this country need to be reworked, even abolished, so that Mexico can have its economic heart beating again. That I still agree with, but a willingness to dump herds of permanent labors on American grounds will only give business an excess pool of labor. Therefore their membership in unions won’t mean very much because their bargaining power will be reduced.
Comment by McWars — February 26, 2008 @ 12:41 pm
Well, if the documenting of undocumented workers is done in conjunction with a proper renegotiation of trade deals and a focus on sustainable economic development in the sending countries, the shock to the system might not be so bad.
Right now there is an excess pool of informal labor. All this move would do is push much of that informal labor into the formal sector. Employers may not be able to accomodate paying living wages to all their employees, and may have to have fewer employees, creating an excess pool of unskilled laborers.
These laborers would then have an incentive to go back to their home countries, and there would be a smaller supply of unskilled laborers coming in to the United States looking for work.
This is why it is absolutely crucial that any move to legitimize undocumented workers is done hand in hand with policies that create job opportunities and raise wages in Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, and others. Because the natural reaction of U.S. employers will be to raise prices, which will give the sending countries an increased trade advantage. We don’t want to stop slave labor here only to increase it in El Salvador.
It’s a shock to the system, yes, which is why this type of change would have to be implemented gradually, perhaps with some sort of temporary subsidy or tax incentive to ease the burden on companies transitioning out of the shadows.
But a system built on slave labor cannot last. I think we can all agree on that.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:59 pmI fear you’re turning into a hyperbolistic drama queen.
Comment by Marcus Aurelius
Is it necessary for you to insult me?
February 26th, 2008 at 1:01 pm$12 - $15 per hour is not a living wage. Do. The. Math.
Comment by Marcus Aurelius
You are absolutely correct. And that’s one of the reasons why legal American’s wouldn’t take a job picking grapes for that wage. In reality, what the undocumented workers are paid for picking grapes comes to somewhere around $5-6 an hour if they are really fast and work very hard.
February 26th, 2008 at 1:03 pmOnly when you attribute comments and positions to me which are not mine (a highly republican tactic, and unbecoming, BTW).
Other than that, we’re cool.
February 26th, 2008 at 1:04 pmSounds like the glorification of rank exploitation, to me.
Look how hard they work!
February 26th, 2008 at 1:05 pmSo…you don’t support the law?
February 26th, 2008 at 1:06 pmAnd cheap, too!
February 26th, 2008 at 1:07 pmAnyway, I have to teach a class. Thanks for the exchange.
Bilbo and Toaster, as always, great job.
February 26th, 2008 at 1:08 pmJuan,
Yes, I do support the law. Your implication was clearly that my support for the law was somehow supportive of injustice.
February 26th, 2008 at 1:09 pmComment by Juan C. — February 26, 2008 @ 1:08 pm
Good luck with your students!
February 26th, 2008 at 1:09 pmSounds like the glorification of rank exploitation, to me.
Look how hard they work!
Comment by Marcus Aurelius
It is exploitation. I’m getting really confused as to the point you are trying to make. The point I am trying to make is that we are exploiting these people and then making them into criminals all so that we can have cheap fruits and vegetables and cheap vacations. If we really think we have a problem with undocumented workers, all we need to do is to start arresting the people who hire them. Then we can all start paying a lot more for things we have taken for granted for years. I’m good with that because I would rather pay more for things than continue to exploit people.
February 26th, 2008 at 1:10 pmYes, as a teenager. I bailed hay, picked corn and planted potato. Picked berries too. What’s your point?
Comment by good_golly — February 26, 2008 @ 1:03 pm
He wasn’t talking to you goofy. This question was in response to a particular post. In fact nobody is talking to you because as soon as you get caught being wrong, which is always, you run and change the subject.
February 26th, 2008 at 1:11 pmI don’t like being taken advantage of when I am trying hard to help others.
Buck Fush Comment by Buckie Boy — February 26, 2008 @ 12:06 pm
My apologies, Buckie, I didn’t realize you were treating them like mates, then they shafted you.
Still, if you hired them knowing their immigration status, you were probably putting yourself at risk.
February 26th, 2008 at 1:11 pmYes, I do support the law. Your implication was clearly that my support for the law was somehow supportive of injustice.
Comment by Marcus Aurelius
It is supportive of injustice if you don’t also support enforcing the laws that apply to employers who hire undocumented immigrants. I haven’t seen you say that anywhere.
February 26th, 2008 at 1:12 pmComment by toasterhead — February 26, 2008 @ 12:59 pm
I don’t think I could find such an argument in a textbook.
Good job for clearly convincing me of your position!
February 26th, 2008 at 1:14 pmPerhaps this is true, and perhaps it is their children who grow up in impoverished immigrant slums that become the pariah of American society by creating an incredible amount of Hispanic gang members.
February 26th, 2008 at 1:21 pmAll those Mexican gangs come from somewhere, and if it isn’t from Mexican immigrants then where do you suppose it is from?
All those Mexican gangs come from somewhere, and if it isn’t from Mexican immigrants then where do you suppose it is from?
Comment by kassandrasduplex
So where do you suppose all the American gangs come from? There are many times more of them than there are of Mexican gangs.
February 26th, 2008 at 1:23 pmWihle I’m sure 90% of us progressives are firmly against Clinton, if there’s still any doubt that she has sold herself to big business (makes me I miss the Clinton of the 90s), here’s some links that affirm her to be yet another entitled, misleading politician.
Barack Obama tribal photo ’sent to Drudge Report by Hillary Clinton staff’
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/ news/ main.jhtml?xml=/ news/ 2008/ 02/ 25/ wsmear125.xml
Michael Moore says insurance industry would love Clinton’s healthcare plan
http://thehill.com/ leading-the-news/ michael-moore-says-insurance-industry-would-love-clintons-healthcare-plan-2008-02-22.html
Clinton Gets Caught Again On NAFTA
http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=4137
Bill and Hillary, I regret that it’s come to this, but it’s time for a change.
February 26th, 2008 at 1:24 pmPerhaps this is true, and perhaps it is their children who grow up in impoverished immigrant slums that become the pariah of American society by creating an incredible amount of Hispanic gang members.
All those Mexican gangs come from somewhere, and if it isn’t from Mexican immigrants then where do you suppose it is from?
Comment by kassandrasduplex — February 26, 2008 @ 1:21 pm
Please define “incredible amount” and “all those Mexican gangs”. How many? And provide evidence rather than hyperbole. And provide evidence that the gang members are here illegally.
February 26th, 2008 at 1:25 pmOnly when you attribute comments and positions to me which are not mine (a highly republican tactic, and unbecoming, BTW).
Other than that, we’re cool.
Comment by Marcus Aurelius
Well then perhaps you should be a little more clear in what you are saying. I am thoroughly confused as to what your position is on undocumented workers.
February 26th, 2008 at 1:26 pmBill and Hillary, I regret that it’s come to this, but it’s time for a change.
Comment by McWars
I totally agree. But what are you going to do if Clinton is the nominee?
My biggest regret of this campaign is how much my opinion of Bill Clinton has gone down. I used to admire the man. I’m not sure I do now. If Bill and Hillary continue with their scorched earth tactics, they may just hand the election to McCain.
February 26th, 2008 at 1:28 pmAll those Mexican gangs come from somewhere, and if it isn’t from Mexican immigrants then where do you suppose it is from?
Comment by kassandrasduplex — February 26, 2008 @ 1:21 pm
And you know what helps keep them going? A climate that makes victims of these gangs afraid to call the police for feat they’ll be deported.
February 26th, 2008 at 1:34 pm#149 - Still, Bill Clinton was the best republican president we ever had.
February 26th, 2008 at 1:36 pmMy biggest regret of this campaign is how much my opinion of Bill Clinton has gone down. I used to admire the man.
Comment by bilbobaggins — February 26, 2008 @ 1:28 pm
If you’d really like to lose respect for Clinton, read up on his support for the Suharto regime in Indonesia, or his support for the Rwanda/Burundi/DRC genocide/civil war.
February 26th, 2008 at 1:39 pmMy position: If you are here illegally, you need to go back home, on your own dime - just like you got here - and to tell everyone in your home town not to go to the US until you have done the paperwork and received permission to immigrate.
I’ll stop short of saying they should be fined.
If you are here legally - regardless of any other criteria (and I would hope the most impoverished and downtrodden were given precedence) - welcome! Please study our Constitution on your way to citizenship, as it is crucial to the wellbeing of your chosen homeland.
That’s how legal immigration works.