Consider it a re-iteration.

Comment by bilbobaggins

Well, you’ve got my vote for most confused poster of the day. To berate someone for seeing things strictly in black and white, and then to suggest they have situational ethics. Do you ever read your own writing before posting? Sheesh!

Comment by bilbobaggins

Well, you’ve got my vote for most confused poster of the day. To berate someone for seeing things strictly in black and white, and then suggest they have situational ethics, meaning they . Do you ever read your own writing before posting? Sheesh!

Comment by Jeremy in Denver — February 26, 2008 @ 3:42 pm

another ridiculous, rightwing statement. If the rest of the woprld shared the US way of living, the planet would be already dead and empty. You suffer from a myopia that is truly nothing but personal.

Well, you’re an idiot, if you think that the black and white thinking of the right is going to go over here. Illegals and their “wrongdoings”? Please, try starving half to death for most of y8our life, and see if you won’t risk everything you have to feed your family, or yourself. You’re a fool.

I think I’ve said enough to let my position stand on its own.

Of course, you can’t agree with my position so you call me racist and say I don’t take responsibility for my own actions, and am unaware of what the Right has done to me. Sure. Whatever. And you wonder why moderates feel excluded from your party as much as they do the Right.

For the rest, again, I reitterate. It’s the fault of the corporations that the situation has come to where it is today with illegals coming in. LP is right, if there were no opportunities here for the illegals, they’d not risk getting cut off from their families back home to come here. That does not absolve the illegals of their own wrong doings. I guess that me saying that I’d expect me to do time if I stole bread for a hypothetical starving child wasn’t enough for bilbo to lose his call of ’situational ethics’.

Thanks for giving the trolls ammunition to say that you guys are intolerant of others views, bilbo and LP. If they ever accuse you directly of that offense, don’t be surprised if I don’t come to your defense.

Again, blaming theillegals instead of the corporate whores is your problem, Jeremy. You can keep on doing it all you want, but if there were no rewards, there would be no risks taken. You’re just a racist hypocrite, with no understanding of the the right wing has done to you.

No, I cannot respect your opinion because it is based on black and white. The world is not black and white, it is shades of gray. I sympathize with the position you find yourself in. I don’t respect the fact that you seem to be blaming everyone but yourself for where you are at financially. And yet you want to have that undocumented immigrant take total responsibility for their being a “criminal” because they came here to get a job to feed their family.

I think you suffer from situational ethics.

If I stole a loaf of bread to feed my starving child, should I go to jail?

YES.

You see, by stealing that loaf of bread, I have denied someone else the use of that loaf.

I know. It was someone elses fault that I couldn’t get my own loaf. Somehow that exhonorates me from paying the agreed upon penalty for taking someone elses loaf. Yes, I get it. I don’t agree with it, and that seems to be the problem. You’re entitled to your opinion, I’ll definitely agree with that. Just don’t expect me (or others) to buy it. I respect your opinion even if I disagree with it. Can you say the same about my opinion?

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Greed from the illegal immigrants.
Comment by Jeremy in Denver

Wow…the things I have to read.

Comment by Juan C. — February 26, 2008 @ 4:29 pm
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Comment taken out of context from:

Greed from our business owners. Greed from the illegal immigrants. Greed from the American Consumer.
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Juan C.? We call this _cherrypicking_. Go ahead and take things out of context…it doesn’t invalidate my point, and it’s an opinion many of us share. Illegals aren’t lilly-white no matter how much people’d like to paint them. Again, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Is the Democratic Party big-tent enough to have ‘agree to disagree’ moments?

Good luck with your anti-latino crusade, Republicans. You sure as hell better hope they don’t speak enough English to know just how much you hate them. Either way, though, you’re fcuked.

Wow…the things I have to read.

I guess you haven’t bothered to read what I have written. I have given my opinion on what should happen and it has nothing to do with “open borders”.

Again, I will ask. If you stole a loaf of bread to feed your starving child, would you expect to go to jail for the crime you committed?

*sigh* You still don’t get it, and honestly, I don’t think there’s any point to continuing. I get your point, you think its everyone but the Illegal’s responsibility for this whole can of worms we’re in.

I don’t agree with you. Yes. The Government looked away while this was going on. We’re on the exact same damn page on the corporation thing. We just don’t see eye-to-eye on the responsibility of the people who actually walked across that border without going through the process to do so legally.

Like I said. If you think that open borders is the right thing, try to get it passed. If it does pass, then that’s ANOTHER reason for me to move to some place where it isn’t the policy. I do not want open borders and it has everything to do with my quality of life…as it seems the cost of living hasn’t gone down with the wages, now has it?

Until the rest of the world shares the US’s way of living, don’t expect me to support an open borders policy and the rewarding of those who broke the law on our current border policy, regardless of why they may have broken those laws.

They broke the law because they need to find a way to support their families. If you broke the law by stealing a loaf of bread to feed your starving child, would you support your being thrown in jail for stealing or would you like a little compassion about your situation?

You also refer to their “tax debt”. What “tax debt”? Do you mean the taxes they aren’t paying because they are paid under the table? What would they get in return for paying that “tax debt”? Nothing that I can see. Also, a large majority of undocumented workers in this country are actually working under a stolen social security number and paying taxes that they will never get any benefit from. The woman I worked for had 15 undocumented workers who were having all the normal taxes taken out of their pay and sent to the Federal government. Since their social security numbers were either invalid or stolen from dead people, they could not file income tax returns and they will never collect Social Security.

That brings up another subject. The IRS has to know that the money they are collecting from these people is money coming from an invalid social security number or the social security number of a dead person. So why don’t they go arrest the employer for hiring an undocumented worker? I think the answer is that they want this “free” money to continue to flow into the US coffers so they don’t say anything.

The US government has been ignoring the undocumented immigrant problem for years because they know that corporations and the US treasury are benefiting from hiring these workers.

If you steal a loaf of bread because you are trying to feed your children I am going to go with jury nullification. I am sorry but not all laws are created equal. Our current arrest and deport while letting businesses skate proves that.

I really don’t see how we can adequately address those that are already here without fixing the root problems. I think a majority of the illegals would go home if there were opportunities there. Say that leaves half of the current number. We give them an opportunity to have a path to citizenship and if they stray deport them. To drive them underground with the automatic threat of deportation certainly isn’t the answer. That will create a permanent underclass that the corporations can exploit at their leisure.

So, I don’t believe there is anything but a band-aid solution until we get rid of the working-class destroying policies.

Comment by Jeremy in Denver — February 26, 2008 @

Business is the main cause of the massive influx of illegals.

Like a said, not long ago, these so-called “jobs Americans don’t want” were mostly filled by low-skilled, American citizens. As employers dixcovered the lack of prosecution for hiring illegals, they began lowering wages, for more profit, and more illegals. As government turned a blind eye to the situation, it’s grown exponentially out of control, i.e. more low-skilled jobs wages are lowered, thereby attracting more illegals. The jobs and the high wages were here first. You know why our job sector has shrunk so: NAFTA.

The buck stops where the buck starts.

Illegals aren’t ‘demons’, any more than they are ‘illegal human beings’. They’re criminals, yes. That doesn’t make them ‘demons’, in my eyes or in any other reasonable person’s eyes.

Yes, you steal a loaf of bread from someone else, then that makes you a criminal. Theft carries an agreed upon penalty, as does illegally entering the country. Theft carries incarceration and monetary penalties, illegal immigration carries deportation and possibly monetary penalties. You break the law, you pay the price.

You’re not going to fix everything by rewarding lawbreaking either. WHat is your solution about the 17 million or so people here in the states who walsed ahead of those who were following the rules? Turn your cheek? Give them citizenship? Then we might as well not have laws period. Let’s just say that stopsign is just a ’suggestion’. Let’s go 100mph down the interstate. Let’s just forget all these laws that ‘inconvenience’ people and ‘take away their rights’.

Just give me warning first, so I can get started on the process of _legally_ immigrating to Canada.

My financial situation is only partly caused by illegals. I don’t blame them for coming in and taking the jobs — if our business people weren’t so greedy, there would be no jobs for them to take, or at least fewer. However, the system is set up to drive the illegals away from protecting their worker rights, in order to ensure that they can be paid under the table for much less than any American worker can afford to be paid.

However, they still broke the law. The punishment for them needs to match that. I don’t think they should get off with a fraction of their tax debt as their only punishment. I do lean towards sending the single workers back to their home nations, and families will need to pay all their back tax debt plus a hefty fine.

And yes…I DO believe the businesses should be stuck, and stuck hard. But that’s just the tip of the iceberg for what I think needs to happen to them.