Ellen: ‘We must change’ our country’s attitudes towards gays.
Ellen: ‘We must change’ our country’s attitudes towards gays.
In a segment that airs today, talk show host Ellen DeGeneras speaks about the murder of 15-year-old Lawrence King, who was killed by a classmate for being gay. Saying that “we must change our country,” Ellen urges her audience to “check on who you’re voting for” to see if they stand for gay rights:
A boy has been killed and a number of lives have been ruined. And, somewhere along the line the killer, Brandon, got the message that it’s so threatening, so awful, and so horrific that Larry would want to be his Valentine — that killing Larry seemed to be the right thing to do. And when the message out there is so horrible that to be gay, you can get killed for it, we need to change the message. Larry was not a second-class citizen. I am not a second-class citizen. It’s ok if you’re gay.
Watch it:
“I think one thing we should change is hate,” Ellen said. “Check on who you’re voting for. Does that person really truly believe that we are all equal under the law?”
Transcript:
I need to talk to you about something that’s really serious and really sad. And, if you know me it’s hard to talk about sad stuff without getting emotional but this is really important to talk about. On February 12th an openly gay 15 year-old boy named Larry, (King) who was an 8th grader in Oxnard, California was murdered by a fellow 8th grader, named Brandon. Larry was killed because he was gay. Days before he was murdered, Larry had asked his killer to be his Valentine.
I don’t want to be political. This is not political. I’m not a political person, but this is personal to me. A boy has been killed and a number of lives have been ruined. And, somewhere along the line the killer, Brandon got the message that it’s so threatening so awful and so horrific that Larry would want to be his Valentine, that killing Larry seemed to be the right thing to do. And when the message out there is so horrible that to be gay, you can get killed for it, we need to change the message.
Larry was not a second-class citizen. I am not a second-class citizen. It’s ok if you’re gay.
I don’t care what people say; I don’t care what people think. I know there are entire groups of people who face discrimination every single day and I know we are a long way from treating each other equally.
All of it is unacceptable. All of it. But I would like you to start paying attention to how often being gay is the punch line of a monologue or how often gay jokes are in a movie. And that kind of message, laughing at someone because they’re gay is just the beginning. It starts with laughing at someone, and then it’s verbal abuse, then it’s physical abuse, and it’s this kid Brandon killing a kid like Larry.
We must change our country, and we can do it. We can do it with our behavior; we can do it with the messages that we send our children. We can do it with our vote. This is an election year and there’s a lot of talk about change. I think one thing we should change is hate. Check on who you’re voting for. Does that person really truly believe that we are all equal under the law? If you’re not sure, I say change your vote. We deserve better.
My heart goes out to everybody involved on this horrible, horrible incident. All the families, even Brandon’s life has changed because he did this.
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‘We must change’ our country’s attitudes towards gays.
and human beings that are not Americans.
February 29th, 2008 at 12:54 pmThe prejudice and stupidity of the religious morons that have so much influence in the US is despicable ; that is what contributed to this tragic event.
To those of you who claim to be religious and “righteous” ; does this event seem “right” to you ?
February 29th, 2008 at 12:55 pmLarry was killed because he was gay.
According to Psychology: Larry was killed because Brandon was gay.
February 29th, 2008 at 12:57 pmAccording to me Juan C, you are part of the problem and not the solution.
February 29th, 2008 at 12:58 pmIt’s appalling that they want to charge this kid as an adult.
What could be more immature and childlike than reacting with violence at being teased about being gay?
He’s a kid, he reacted with kid emotions, and he just happened to have access to a deadly weapon.
Sad all around.
February 29th, 2008 at 12:59 pmI’ve never understood why someone would hate a person simply because that person is homosexual…So many great and creative people have been homosexual throughout history.
It makes no sense to me.
February 29th, 2008 at 12:59 pmA heart-felt “HEAR, HEAR!!” to you, Ellen.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:00 pmWhat a heartbreaking story.
All of it is unacceptable. All of it. But I would like you to start paying attention to how often being gay is the punch line of a monologue or how often gay jokes are in a movie.
Ellen is right.
This goes on right here at ThinkProgress — it’s unacceptable.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:00 pmThe first thing we need to do is start reject and denounce the hate-mongers in our society. I’m talking about the right-wing “Christians” that preach that homosexuality is a sin. We are all entitled to our religious beliefs but not to enforce them on others. The 14th amendment to the constitution says that all citizens are entitled to equal treatment under the law. That means if heterosexuals have the right to be married, so do homosexuals. We must reject and denounce the theocrats and their lies that America was meant to be a christian nation. Know your history and don’t let them get away with that propaganda.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:00 pmDevils and Dust. Fear’s a powerful thing, it will turn your heart black you can trust…….
February 29th, 2008 at 1:00 pmHow soon before “pick & choose” “c”hristians Daryll and Bitbit are here to throw their highliy specific verses of the Bible to justify their hatred for gay people?
Why do the Daryll & Bitbit “pick & choose” “c”hristians only use some of the Bible to support their prejudice, while they ignore the words of Jesus about divorced people remarrying is a sin?
February 29th, 2008 at 1:01 pmComment by Charles James Napier — February 29, 2008 @ 12:59 pm
Well said mr. napier.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:01 pm6 – Note to Charlie Nappy – IT’S BECAUSE YOUR FASCIST REPUBLICAN SCUMPIG RULERS HAVE BEEN TELLING THEM TO FOR YEARS.
Clueless moron.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:01 pmThis goes on right here at ThinkProgress — it’s unacceptable.
Comment by Zooey — February 29, 2008 @ 1:00 pm
Zoo, sure, some of it is sophomoric and crude, but most of the “gay” accusations here are directed at trolls who react so vehemently against the very notion of two people of the same sex being in love.
It’s not especially unfair.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:02 pm6 – Why not repudiate their hatred, Charlie? Do it now. By name.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:02 pmWe must change our country, and we can do it. We can do it with our behavior; we can do it with the messages that we send our children. We can do it with our vote. This is an election year and there’s a lot of talk about change. I think one thing we should change is hate. Check on who you’re voting for. Does that person really truly believe that we are all equal under the law? If you’re not sure, I say change your vote. We deserve better.
Ahhh, so that must be the “gay agenda” the Christian Taliban is always screaming about.
Scary stuff, eh?
February 29th, 2008 at 1:02 pmI’ll give Chuckles some credit for a reasoned opinion, for once.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:03 pmEven tho I was a dirty hippie commie in the sixties and embraced the embodied laissez faire social attitude, I still felt uncomfortable with and biased toward homosexuality… until I got to know some gay people. Many became friends treasured to this day. This is why it’s so important for gays to display the courage so many do and be open about their sexuality – it’s an education for heteros. There will continue to be animosity and violence toward gays (and there will always be the emotionally crippled), but it will dissipate in time.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:04 pmAccording to me Juan C, you are part of the problem and not the solution.
Comment by hellinabucket
And what’s your problem now?
February 29th, 2008 at 1:05 pmI’ve never understood why someone would hate a person simply because that person is homosexual…It makes no sense to me.
Comment by Charles James Napier — February 29, 2008 @ 12:59 pm
And it makes sense that you’re a GOP/Chimpy leg humping chucklehead ?
The people you’re questioning are the same ones you VOTE FOR . Go ask them ; and then ask yourself why you would vote for those whom you seriously just questioned…………
February 29th, 2008 at 1:06 pm#6 – Comment by Charles James Napier — February 29, 2008 @ 12:59 pm
I agree, well said Mr. Napier. I may not agree with you often, but I do now!
February 29th, 2008 at 1:06 pmEven here on TP threads, how many times do posters taunt each other with jabs at each other’s sexual orientation? How many times do posters call other posters gay or homosexual because they disagree with them? Why is this considered to be the ultimate insult?
I’ve always believed that should stop. Now is as good a time as any to say so.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:06 pmI’ll give Chuckles some credit for a reasoned opinion, for once.
Comment by ralph the wonder llama — February 29, 2008 @ 1:03 pm
I won’t ; he’s chastising those whom he supports.
That makes absolutely zero sense.
Words on a blog are basically meaningless ; entertainment at best.
An action like a vote , especially for the GOP , has much more impact ; and sadly , in a bad way , usually……..
February 29th, 2008 at 1:08 pmIt’s not especially unfair.
Comment by ralph the wonder llama — February 29, 2008 @ 1:02 pm
It’s unfair to the gay community.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:09 pmI’ve always believed that should stop. Now is as good a time as any to say so.
Comment by missmolly — February 29, 2008 @ 1:06 pm
I agree completely, Miss Molly, and said so above. It likely won’t go over well…
February 29th, 2008 at 1:10 pmRe #6
Thank you Charles.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:11 pmI’ve always believed that should stop. Now is as good a time as any to say so.
Comment by missmolly — February 29, 2008 @ 1:06 pm
Agreed. It’s intellectually lazy, in addition to being intolerant. There are so many ways to insult people that are vastly more creative.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:12 pmWhy not repudiate their hatred, Charlie? Do it now. By name.
Comment by Leftside Annie
————————————————————
By name?…..Sure: I repudiate the Royal Family of Saudi Arabia & The Iranian government of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and their predesesors who have been the worst oppressors of homosexuals in the modern world.
I also repudiate every person who harbors hatred in their hearts towards homosexuals regardless of their political affiliation.
How’s that?
February 29th, 2008 at 1:13 pmHate is not innate. It’s a learned trait. People are not born racists.
I can’t wait to see what Limbaugh, O’Reilly, Hannity, Coulter, Savage, and Beck have to say about Ellen. They make more annually than most of will in our lifetimes. And they do it by hating. They do it by cheerleading hate. They do it because they are given a platform and a lot of money.
Nothing will change until the pocketbooks of those paying exorbitant amounts to these people are damaged.
WE are paying for hate.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:13 pmJust a note, Ali: It’s DeGenerEs, not DeGenerAs.
And yes, judging a person by its sexual orientation is simply evil. No one but God (or goddess Nature) has given us our sexual tendencies, heterosexual or homosexual.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:14 pmWhy not repudiate their hatred, Charlie? Do it now. By name.
Comment by Leftside Annie
————————————————————
By name?…..Sure: I repudiate the Royal Family of Saudi Arabia & The Iranian government of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and their predesesors who have been the worst oppressors of homosexuals in the modern world.
I also repudiate every person who harbors hatred in their hearts towards homosexuals regardless of their political affiliation.
How’s that?
Comment by Charles James Napier — February 29, 2008 @ 1:13 pm
Then why do you try and defend Shrub and Co ; and why do you vote Republican ?
You’re part of the problem , regardless of the words you post here………
February 29th, 2008 at 1:14 pmThank you Charles.
Comment by Bobwurst
Thank you? Why you should thank a human being for caring about another human being? To me, it’s the least you could do.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:15 pmSomeone needs to tell Charles Napier that the preferred term is gay. Even the Washington Times no longer uses homosexual to refer to gay people because the term is clinical and suggestive of some abnormality. Otherwise, agree with the post.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:15 pmBTW, I used racists in my 1:13 post as but one example. I should have used homophobe to be on track for this thread. Sorry…my bad.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:15 pmThe sort of hatred does not come naturally to children. It is learned from adults. And Republicans have been very active in teaching this kind of hatred.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:16 pmI’ve always believed that should stop. Now is as good a time as any to say so.
Comment by missmolly — February 29, 2008 @ 1:06 pm
I’ve never understood why people on this website call each other names in the first place. Its just sophomoric and takes away from any credibility to the argument you are making.
With that said, I feel strongly about 1st Amendment rights. If you want to make a homophobic (or anti-Semitic, or racist) remark, joke, or slur, you have the right to do so. Not saying I agree with it…just feel it the course of freedom, this is one of the prices you have to pay.
I also feel gays should have the exact same rights as the rest of us: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal….â€
February 29th, 2008 at 1:16 pmEquality is one of the foundations of our country.
#22 — Always the voice of reason, miss molly, completely agree. I always thought the use of that as an ultimate insult was disturbing on this blog, particularly since I am a happy gay boy;)
February 29th, 2008 at 1:18 pmI also feel gays should have the exact same rights as the rest of us: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal….â€
Equality is one of the foundations of our country.
Comment by dim wit — February 29, 2008 @ 1:16 pm
Precisely
Why shouldn’t gays and lesbians be just as miserable in marriage as heteros seem to be …………….It’s only fair.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:18 pmThen why do you try and defend Shrub and Co ; and why do you vote Republican ?
You’re part of the problem , regardless of the words you post here………
Comment by MCMetal
———————————————-
Does Shrub hate homosexuals?…I don’t think so.
I know that YOU hate Shrub, but that’s different.
And, even though you folks don’t believe me, I do not support everything that President Shrubby says or does.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:19 pmWords on a blog are basically meaningless ; entertainment at best.
An action like a vote , especially for the GOP , has much more impact ; and sadly , in a bad way , usually……..
Comment by MCMetal — February 29, 2008 @ 1:08 pm
True enough, MC, but words on a blog are all we have on which to judge each other here. If we can criticize trolls like Napier when they say repugnant our abhorrent things, we should be equally able to praise them when they say human or reasonable things.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:19 pmJust a note, Ali: It’s DeGenerEs, not DeGenerAs.
And yes, judging a person by its sexual orientation is simply evil. No one but God (or goddess Nature) has given us our sexual tendencies, heterosexual or homosexual.
Comment by Evil Spaniard — February 29, 2008 @ 1:14 pm
___________________________
I don’t think it matters whether it is by birth or by choice. It may be some of each. The bottom line is that none of us should discriminate against anyone because he/she may be gay.
Comment by good_golly — February 29, 2008 @ 1:19 pm
You just called yourself out ; you vote for those who do that ………
February 29th, 2008 at 1:19 pmIf you check out the United Church of Christ’s website (Obama’s church) http://www.ucc.org/lgbt/ you will see that it is truly all inclusive. As a Christian, I have always wondered why so many other Christians condemn what they disagree with. This goes all the way to some of us not going to heaven because we are not “Christian” enough. When God taps me on the shoulder and tells me it’s now up to me to judge everyone not like me, maybe I will consider it. Until then, let’s just leave it in God’s hands and reach out with love and tolerance.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:20 pmCan we just challenge any of the phobic freaks to pony up and take their stand? I am not suggesting they need be banned or anything only that the record show where everyone stands. There is no moment that I regret placing the responsibility of my daughter’s life in the hands of her two godfathers should that need arise.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:20 pmWords on a blog are basically meaningless ; entertainment at best.
An action like a vote , especially for the GOP , has much more impact ; and sadly , in a bad way , usually……..
Comment by MCMetal — February 29, 2008 @ 1:08 pm
True enough, MC, but words on a blog are all we have on which to judge each other here. If we can criticize trolls like Napier when they say repugnant our abhorrent things, we should be equally able to praise them when they say human or reasonable things.
Comment by ralph the wonder llama — February 29, 2008 @ 1:19 pm
Actions say much more than mere words ; both Golly and Chuck are expounding on the incorrectness of being homophobic/hateful towards gays.
Then why vote for those who are ?
February 29th, 2008 at 1:22 pmZoo, sure, some of it is sophomoric and crude, but most of the “gay†accusations here are directed at trolls who react so vehemently against the very notion of two people of the same sex being in love.
It’s not especially unfair.
Comment by ralph the wonder llama — February 29, 2008 @ 1:02 pm
Zooey’s right — it IS unfair. Let me put this is a slightly different setting.
What if, instead of a poster prattling on and on against homosexuals, he was blasting non-whites? Would it be reasonable or “fair” to taunt him by calling him the N word?
Most people would think that to be unfair. Not as much to the “tauntee”, but certainly to the rest of the readers of the thread. It’s offensive, no matter how it’s used.
Any anti-gay slurs should be treated with as much disdain.
Furthermore (and I have said this before many times), when one resorts to taunts and name-calling, it means that person has run out of intelligent debate.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:22 pmDoes Shrub hate homosexuals?…I don’t think so.
I know that YOU hate Shrub, but that’s different.
Comment by Charles James Napier — February 29, 2008 @ 1:19 pm
Both points are irrelevant. The Republican party has pandered to homophobic bigots for a long time. There is no denying it. It is disgusting. Those who vote Republican enable hatred and bigotry towards gay people. Republicans have worked hard to thwart hate crimes legislation aimed at persecution of gay people as part of this pandering. Republicans have encouraged hatred and discrimination against gay people with a wink and a nod.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:22 pmVerbalKint,
Kids can be very cruel, but you’re right when you say that hatred is taught….although I think that you would be surprised to find that irrational hatred of homosexuals falls on both sides of the political spectrum.
Many rap lyrics contain hateful comments about gays and I doubt that most rappers are Republicans.
I think that such hatred is often rooted in the haters own confusion regarding his/her own sexuality.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:24 pm42. If any of us only voted for people that we agreed with 100% on all issues, there would be nobody to vote for.
Comment by good_golly — February 29, 2008 @ 1:21 pm
Promoting fear, racism, hatred, bigotry, homophobia, and xenophobia is the GOP stock in trade. It is a global strategy employed by the party. On that count alone, no one should vote Republican until the party reforms its way.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:24 pm42. If any of us only voted for people that we agreed with 100% on all issues, there would be nobody to vote for.
Comment by good_golly — February 29, 2008 @ 1:21 pm
Gimme’ a break ; the last 5 Republican presidents have all committed criminal acts .
And the latest GOP candidate spins more on his opinions than a pinwheel would during a hurricane ; that isn’t someone worth a damn , yet you probably are gonna’ vote for that wrinkled , senile old fool.
Where’s the sense in that ?
February 29th, 2008 at 1:25 pmIt’s unfair to the gay community.
Comment by Zooey — February 29, 2008 @ 1:09 pm
I’ll agree that reflexive, simplistic gay slurs are unfair to the gay community.
But that doesn’t mean that anything “gay” is off-limits. If a troll like Daryll shows up and says homosexuals are going to hell, I don’t think it’s much a stretch to propose that Daryll himself is a closeted homosexual. Much like Ted Haggard.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:25 pmI just dont undestand why there are people out there that dont want homosexuals to be just as miserable in marriage as us hetrosexuals.
Misery loves company!
February 29th, 2008 at 1:25 pmVerbalKint,
Kids can be very cruel, but you’re right when you say that hatred is taught….although I think that you would be surprised to find that irrational hatred of homosexuals falls on both sides of the political spectrum.
Many rap lyrics contain hateful comments about gays and I doubt that most rappers are Republicans.
I think that such hatred is often rooted in the haters own confusion regarding his/her own sexuality.
Comment by Charles James Napier — February 29, 2008 @ 1:24 pm
You’re comparing a form of music to one of the basis and platforms of a political party ?
Rap artists/music are an expression ; you can choose to listen or not listen to it.
Politicians determine the direction of our country and the laws which we live by and have a much more direct impact on our daily lives; notice the slight difference ?
February 29th, 2008 at 1:27 pmI think that you would be surprised to find that irrational hatred of homosexuals falls on both sides of the political spectrum.
Comment by Charles James Napier — February 29, 2008 @ 1:24 pm
Oh, well, Chuckles, you had it going there for a moment.
Then you decided to play the “everybody does it” card. Care to offer any evidence for a systematic “irrational hatred of homosexuals” on the Left?
February 29th, 2008 at 1:28 pmComment by missmolly — February 29, 2008 @ 1:22 pm
I agree with your first but not so much the second.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:29 pmIn general I think there has been improvement from a year or so ago on the rascist, phobic, and sexist comments.
As to name calling I am less sure that it is an equivalency. In some cases some name calling can be a creative use of satire/comedy and may serve an interesting purpose if employed in a thoughtful manner. I myself am no namecaller. I just think that we may be talking about two distinctly different situations
http://online.logcabin.org/
Comment by good_golly — February 29, 2008 @ 1:26 pm
You’re hopeless
You post a link to a group of morons that has John friggin’ Bolton as a “keynote speaker” and expect to be taken even somewhat seriously ?
You’re incredibly silly ………
February 29th, 2008 at 1:30 pmGood for Ellen.
Homosexuality is clearly biological – why would anyone CHOOSE to be part of a group that faces such bigotry?
Were either of my children to turn out gay, I would love them just the same. Everyone’s child deserves the same respect.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:30 pmSad that the hate mongers of society have brought down our world to this level.
You have to just listen to Rush, Bildo, Laura, Mann Coulter and the like to see that they are a large part of the problem with the spreading of hate in this country.
They constantly try and make the Reichwingers hate the rest of American citizens because they think and act differently than them.
Buck Fush
February 29th, 2008 at 1:31 pm.
In the Seattle area, we are blessed(?) to have such a Pastor that loves to hate.
ORCINUS covers it well…
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2008/02/they-love-to-hate.html
A few teachers are being threatened with their jobs because they dared to confront this bigoted Pastor while he addressed a school assembly about equality on MLK jr Day.
.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:31 pmActions say much more than mere words ; both Golly and Chuck are expounding on the incorrectness of being homophobic/hateful towards gays.
Then why vote for those who are ?
Comment by MCMetal — February 29, 2008 @ 1:22 pm
You don’t trust their words on gays, why trust their words on who they would vote for? After all, it’s nothing but words on a blog. You have no idea what actions are taken by the people who author these words.
If you’re going to take their words seriously, then challenge their stated positions — that’s fair — but don’t claim that reasonable positions that they take are not worthy of praise.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:32 pmI agree with dbadass.
Making name calling the whole “argument” of your posts are an incredible waste of time. But using them, from time to time, to EMPHASIZE arguments, it is enrichening, I think.
Sometimes a nice “moron” is better than a large paragraph filled with pseudo-tolerance.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:33 pmAs the mother of a gay man, this is disturbing to me on so many levels. There isn’t a day that goes by that I don’t fear for his saftey just because he is gay.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:33 pmSometimes a nice “moron†is better than a large paragraph filled with pseudo-tolerance.
Comment by Juan C. — February 29, 2008 @ 1:33 pm
I’m with ya there.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:34 pmSometimes a nice “moron†is better than a large paragraph filled with pseudo-tolerance.
Comment by Juan C. — February 29, 2008 @ 1:33 pm
And sometimes it’s just a statement of obvious fact…
February 29th, 2008 at 1:35 pmAs for some of the di(kweeds who post here, there is never a reason to call them anything other than what they are: racists, homophopes, $h!theads, a$$wipes, jerkoffs, TRAITORS!
There are so many pejoratives appropros to their level of idiocy, random slurs that apply to a broad range of people (well, unless you’re a gooper, then all’s fair and all), random hurtful slurs are not needed.
(wink wink nudge nudge)
February 29th, 2008 at 1:35 pm#61 – “…religion. Last I checked, this too was a “chosen behavior.— Comment by Max-1 — February 29, 2008 @ 1:31 pm
Very good point! Why is one’s religious “choice” somehow more sacrosanct than supposed sexual-expression “choice” when it comes to civil rights?
Sexual orientation is not something that is chosen. Only how we express our sexuality. I never chose to be gay, but I thank God for making me the way that I am!
February 29th, 2008 at 1:37 pmI don’t think it’s much a stretch to propose that Daryll himself is a closeted homosexual. Much like Ted Haggard.
Comment by ralph the wonder llama — February 29, 2008 @ 1:25 pm
C’mon, Ralph! It’s not mere speculation. Some of the comments are absolutely disgusting and embarrassing. I often wonder what our gay commenters think of those types of comments.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:37 pmYears from now, people will look back and wonder how on earth it took so damn long for gays to achieve true equality.
A little humor from a few years back:
Ten Reasons to oppose gay marriage:
1) Being gay is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, liposuction, and air conditioning.
2) Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.
3) Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.
4) Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn’t changed at all: women are still property, blacks still can’t marry whites, and divorce is still illegal.
5) Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed; the sanctity of Britney Spears’ 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.
6) Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. Gay couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn’t be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren’t full yet, and the world needs more children.
7) Obviously, gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.
8) Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That’s why we have only one religion in America.
9) Children can never succeed without both a male and a female role model at home. That’s why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.
10) Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven’t adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:37 pmCare to offer any evidence for a systematic “irrational hatred of homosexuals†on the Left?
———————————————–
I’m not referring to politicians, I’m referring to individuals.
Care to offer any evidence for a systematic “irrational hatred of homosexuals†on the Right?
BTW – I do not consider the belief that homosexual behavior is a sin to be equal to hatred….but I’m sure you do. Nor do I consider it hatred to wish to preserve marriage as it has always been; the union of a man and and a women.
That said, I am in favor of civil unions for same sex couples and I personally could live with same sex marriage so long as it is instituted with the consent of the people and not by the decree of some judge or court.
Now I’d better go before one of you calls me a Nazi.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:39 pm“irrational hatred of homosexuals falls on both sides of the political spectrum.”
Comment by Charles James Napier — February 29, 2008 @ 1:24 pm
A few years ago I saw an excellent feature length documentary that focused on half a dozen individuals who are now serving long prison sentences for killing gay people specifically because of sexual orientation. These people were provided extensive, uninterrupted camera time to express themselves about their crime. Some of them were hyper-religious, and others weren’t. Some of them had themselves engaged in gay sex acts, some of them hadn’t (none of them admitted to being gay, however). The common theme that emerged among them was their sense that society disapproved of homosexuality. The hyper-religious ones felt that killing a gay person was justified by their religious beliefs, essentially by the notion in their mind that God hates homosexuals. The non-religious latent homosexuals expressed the view that killing a gay person was a low risk act because they believed that the police would not investigate the crime with any enthusiasm, because in their mind gay people were unimportant, on par with hookers.
Although each of these people murdered a gay person for their own personal reasons, each of them also was motivated by their sense that gay people were hated by most other people. Now, Charles, explain to me how the Republican party is not aggravating the likelihood of violence against gay people when they promote legal discrimination against them?
Charles, you are an equivalencer. You are one of those Republicans who rationalizes the bad deeds of your party by conjuring some trumped up equivalence with non-Republicans.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:39 pmRight wing Christianity has done this to America. Theirs is not a religion of Jesus, but a religion of hate, and greed for power. Theirs is the religion of the Antichrist.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:42 pmI’m not referring to politicians, I’m referring to individuals.
Comment by Charles James Napier — February 29, 2008 @ 1:39 pm
Read my previous comment. Individuals may experience feelings of bigotry, but if these ideas are publicly condemned, they are much less likely to act on them. When these ideas are encouraged, it fans the flames of their hatred. That is what your GOP does as a systematic political strategy to gain votes.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:42 pmThat said, I am in favor of civil unions for same sex couples and I personally could live with same sex marriage so long as it is instituted with the consent of the people and not by the decree of some judge or court.
Comment by Charles James Napier — February 29, 2008 @ 1:39 pm
I suggest a high school civics class — emphasis on protecting the minority from the majority. **sigh**
February 29th, 2008 at 1:43 pmAnother point, Charles, about the corrosive effect of legal discrimination, often sought by your party: if people fear sanctions (for example a school teacher losing a job, or a soldier being discharged from the army), they are driven underground. They have to hide their sexual orientation. Why does this have a corrosive effect? When non-gay people learn that someone they know at work, at home, or socially is gay, it normalizes the behavior for them. They think “hey, Joe is a great guy, even though he is gay. Maybe gay people aren’t so bad after all.” It is a fact that bigotry diminishes when we are exposed to different people, whether they are gay, foreigners, or a different skin color.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:46 pm.
#68 Comment by Democrat Soldier — February 29, 2008 @ 1:37 pm
Read the entire article AND the comments. It is great!
Pastor Ken Hutcherson has a very large congregation beneath his belt. A year ago he got into hot H2O for renting a public school’s gymnasium as his church. He’s initiated several pro-family(read anti-gay) rallies that encourage discrimination against other minorities, especially gays. He helps himself to his hatred because he cloaks it in his robe of Faith.
.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:46 pmI think we can all rejoice in knowing we are living through and witnessing the next significant step forward in the history of civil rights in the US. Sure many of us will make ill advised and inconsiderate statements at times but overall forward progress continues. I simple personal commitment to the impact of words as well as an awareness of one’s audience is all that is needed.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:47 pmRight on, Ellen!!
February 29th, 2008 at 1:48 pmCharles, you really don’t have a leg to stand on. Your party fans the flames of hatred and bigotry. It doesn’t matter whether the cynical politicians who do this hate gay people or not (after all, a LOT of Republican politicians and their staff are gay). They are encouraging those people who do hate gays to commit acts of violence against them, by normalizing the hatred with their political strategy.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:49 pmVerbalKint,
Are you saying that because I don’t hate gays, I therefore should vote for higher taxes, gun controll, socialized healthcare, a weakened military and all the rest ?
I don’t hate gay people. I have many close friends who are gay. My little daughter’s babysitters are a lesbian couple whom I consider to be family.
I don’t have to vote for Barack Obama to prove anything to anyone.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:53 pmCare to offer any evidence for a systematic “irrational hatred of homosexuals†on the Right?
Comment by Charles James Napier — February 29, 2008 @ 1:39 pm
Are you serious?
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1295/is_n3_v57/ai_13510325
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23672-2004Nov3.html
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20031020/ireland
http://www.cafepress.com/buy/anti-gay+marriage/republican
http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_future_of_antigay_activism
That should do for now. Let me know if you need more links.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:53 pmNow I’d better go before one of you calls me a Nazi.
Comment by Charles James Napier
We don’t need too, it’s a given.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:54 pmThey are encouraging those people who do hate gays to commit acts of violence against them, by normalizing the hatred with their political strategy.
Comment by VerbalKint
————————–
Completely false.
Prove your accusation.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:54 pm.
#71 Comment by Charles James Napier — February 29, 2008 @ 1:39 pm
PRESERVE MARRIAGE…
… OUTLAW DIVORCE!
Leave gayness out of your hate equation to preserve your identity. Preserve it by outlawing it’s own demise… divorce! Gays aren’t destroying straight marriages… straights are doing it for themselves!
As far as equality goes, if gay marriage… er… same sex marriage, as you call it, can it hold legal muster if it is NOT supported by the courts or a judge? You aren’t for equality when you defend separate but equal ideology. Bigotry doesn’t wear well.
.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:55 pmAre you saying that because I don’t hate gays, I therefore should vote for higher taxes, gun controll, socialized healthcare, a weakened military and all the rest ?
Comment by Charles James Napier — February 29, 2008 @ 1:53 pm
Easy, Chuckles, you’re getting straw all over the place! Did you even get any in that straw man you’re trying to build? Doesn’t look like it.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:56 pmNow I’d better go before one of you calls me a Nazi.
Comment by Charles James Napier
A lesser person might call you stupid, a dumb ass, or maybe suggest you try to finish high school. Do you begin to see why you might be misunderstood?
February 29th, 2008 at 1:57 pmVerbalKint,
One more thing..
I believe that homosexuals should be allowed to serve openly in the armed forces, so long as the rules of conduct apply equally to everone.
Now I do have to go.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:57 pmsocialized healthcare,
Comment by Charles James Napier — February 29, 2008 @ 1:53 pm
Who said anything about socialized healthcare? Democrats don’t favor socialized health care. Are you claiming that Clinton or Obama is promoting socialized healthcare? If so, this claim is utterly false.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:59 pmI’ve never understood why someone would hate a person simply because that person is homosexual…So many great and creative people have been homosexual throughout history.
It makes no sense to me.
Comment by Charles James Napier — February 29, 2008 @ 12:59 pm
I don’t think it matters whether it is by birth or by choice. It may be some of each. The bottom line is that none of us should discriminate against anyone because he/she may be gay.
Comment by good_golly — February 29, 2008 @ 1:19 pm
Homosexuality is clearly biological – why would anyone CHOOSE to be part of a group that faces such bigotry?
Were either of my children to turn out gay, I would love them just the same. Everyone’s child deserves the same respect.
Comment by Keltoi — February 29, 2008 @ 1:30 pm
—————————————————
All three of the above posters have posted things here at TP in the past that I disagree with. All three have embraced conservative ideals that I oppose. And while I have no proof of how they vote, I would be willing to bet there are some GOP votes in their pasts.
Nevertheless, I agree with all of their statements I pasted above, and I gave each one of them a “recommend” because I believe they are well-stated.
Have we truly become so polarized in our society that we are limited to only two inflexible ideologies? And is it true that if you agree with Point A of an ideology then you must agree with Point B, Point C, Point D, etc.?
I will continue to praise good posts, no matter who writes them. Likewise, if I disagree with a post written by somebody I normally agree with, I will say so.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:00 pmdbadass,
Still upset about yesterday?
Look, I’m sorry I called you stupid…but you kept asking the same stupid question over and over.
Maybe you are not stupid but your question (which I answered the first time) was stupid.
So long.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:00 pmBrandon got the message that it’s so threatening so awful and so horrific that Larry would want to be his Valentine, that killing Larry seemed to be the right thing to do.
Why would Brandon feel threaten because Larry would want to be his Valentine?
Why would Brandon think killing Larry was the right thing to do?
February 29th, 2008 at 2:01 pmAre you saying that because I don’t hate gays, I therefore should vote for higher taxes, gun controll, socialized healthcare, a weakened military and all the rest ?
Comment by Charles James Napier — February 29, 2008 @ 1:53 pm
In addition to your BOGUS claim about socialized medicine, your claim about a weakened military is ludicrous. Your party has all but DESTROYED military readiness by pursuing Bush’s ill-conceived, counter-productive, and flatly illegal adventure in Iraq.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:01 pmI will continue to praise good posts, no matter who writes them.
Comment by missmolly — February 29, 2008 @ 2:00 p
I, on the other hand, will condemn people for saying one thing, and doing another. This is the Republican party m.o.
I think you are being naive here, missmolly.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:03 pmComment by Charles James Napier — February 29, 2008 @ 2:00 pm
To be still upset would require first being upset. You understand the exact point I am making. It is okay to try to save face.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:03 pmI will continue to praise good posts, no matter who writes them. Likewise, if I disagree with a post written by somebody I normally agree with, I will say so.
Comment by missmolly — February 29, 2008 @ 2:00 pm
Hear, hear, missmolly!
February 29th, 2008 at 2:03 pmI won’t give a free ride to anyone who says they don’t personally hate gay people, but who at the same time won’t hold their own party accountable for frequently pandering to that hatred in others.
Hypocrisy matters!
February 29th, 2008 at 2:04 pmC’mon, Ralph! It’s not mere speculation. Some of the comments are absolutely disgusting and embarrassing. I often wonder what our gay commenters think of those types of comments.
Comment by Zooey — February 29, 2008 @ 1:37 pm
I would imagine that many of our gay commenters probably stay in the closet — “Democrat Soldier” being a rare exception. Who would want to reveal they are gay in a hostile environment?
February 29th, 2008 at 2:05 pmI also repudiate every person who harbors hatred in their hearts towards homosexuals regardless of their political affiliation.
How’s that?
Comment by Charles James Napier
Not good enough. Many of the people that this troll supports are anti gay (like most of the Republican party). How about repudiating them. Then there are the religious “leaders” like Dobson and others who are rabidly anti-gay. How about repudiating them too.
I am afraid that this troll has stepped into a hole he is going to have a hard time digging himself out of.
Although I do appreciate his posting what he did if he really means it.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:05 pmAre you saying that because I don’t hate gays, I therefore should vote for higher taxes, gun controll, socialized healthcare, a weakened military and all the rest ?
Comment by Charles James Napier — February 29, 2008 @ 1:53 pm
Easy, Chuckles, you’re getting straw all over the place! Did you even get any in that straw man you’re trying to build? Doesn’t look like it.
Comment by ralph the wonder llama — February 29, 2008 @ 1:56 pm
I dunno, Ralph. I don’t think that it is a straw man to question the validity of the statement that if you vote GOP you must hate gay people. There has been some very strong inference on this thread that that is the case. It is factually inaccurate.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:05 pmWhy would Brandon feel threaten because Larry would want to be his Valentine?
Why would Brandon think killing Larry was the right thing to do?
Comment by bitblt — February 29, 2008 @ 2:01 pm
Because Brandon was a kid in middle school, with a middle schooler’s intense focus on being accepted. An openly gay kid teasing him about being his valentine jeopardized that acceptance.
Because Brandon came from an abusive home and had been taught by either parents or friends that violence was an acceptable way to settle disputes.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:07 pmI don’t think it matters whether it is by birth or by choice. It may be some of each. The bottom line is that none of us should discriminate against anyone because he/she may be gay.
Comment by good_golly
Wow, GiGi believes that gays should be allowed to get married. Good on you GiGi. Since you said something compassionate and that makes sense, I will address you directly.
Now, are you going to walk the walk?
February 29th, 2008 at 2:09 pmI don’t think that it is a straw man to question the validity of the statement that if you vote GOP you must hate gay people. There has been some very strong inference on this thread that that is the case.
Comment by Keltoi — February 29, 2008 @ 2:05 pm
THIS argument is a straw man, Keltoi. I have repeatedly argued above that it is IRRELEVANT whether or not an individual Republican hates gay people. My problem is that the party EXPLOITS this hatred in others for political gain. This is reprehensible, and actually WORSE than just personally hating gay people. But there is more to the story: the Republican party thrives on promoting hatred in general: hatred of blacks, hatred of Mexicans, hatred of Muslims, hatred of gay people. It is the fear and smear party, and right now they are saying utterly reprehensible things about Barack Obama, then trotting out a few officials to “condemn” what their own foot soldier thugs are doing on their behalf.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:09 pmI think you are being naive here, missmolly.
Comment by VerbalKint — February 29, 2008 @ 2:03 pm
I probably am. Idealistic, too. However, I don’t agree with my party on every single thing, either. This doesn’t make me a hypocrite, it just means I am a person who thinks for myself. And then I vote for the party/candidate who most closely represents my ideals, even it’s not a perfect match.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:10 pmWhy would Brandon think killing Larry was the right thing to do?
Comment by bitblt — February 29, 2008 @ 2:01 pm
Did he read some dumb shit in some book that claimed this was a good idea or was it that he figured after eating the shellfish it didn’t really matter anymore
February 29th, 2008 at 2:11 pmComment by VerbalKint — February 29, 2008 @ 2:09 pm
Well said.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:12 pmThere are half a million dead civilians in Iraq, and many Republicans are perfectly comfortable with this fact because their party has done such a thorough job of demonizing and dehumanizing people, particularly brown-skinned people of the Muslim faith. There would be outrage in the party if those people were white Christians.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:13 pmWhy would Brandon feel threaten because Larry would want to be his Valentine?
Why would Brandon think killing Larry was the right thing to do?
Comment by bitblt — February 29, 2008 @ 2:01 pm
Oh I don’t know, maybe he was fearful, and influenced by people with a “holier than thou” attitude — like you?
February 29th, 2008 at 2:13 pmAre you saying that because I don’t hate gays, I therefore should vote for higher taxes, gun controll, socialized healthcare, a weakened military and all the rest ?
Comment by Charles James Napier — February 29, 2008 @ 1:53 pm
I dunno, Ralph. I don’t think that it is a straw man to question the validity of the statement that if you vote GOP you must hate gay people. There has been some very strong inference on this thread that that is the case. It is factually inaccurate.
Comment by Keltoi — February 29, 2008 @ 2:05 pm
Jeezus, Keltoi, you’re smarter than that, aren’t you?
Among the many little straw men (let’s call them “straw GI Joes” that Chuckles has tried to erect here are the following:
1) that “because I don’t hate gays, I therefore should vote for higher taxes”
2) gun controll
3) socialized healthcare
4) a weakened military and all the rest ?”
Your claim that if you vote GOP you must hate gay people isn’t really a straw man, just a hyperbolic restatement of the original dispute. But each one of Chuckles’ distortions of the right-wing stereotype of a Democratic platform is a straw man, as is the overarching insinuation that the original poster was saying such a thing.
They weren’t really artful straw men, either. Like the kind where you guys use a paper bag for the head, y’know?
February 29th, 2008 at 2:14 pmI appreciate your optimism, missmolly. I can tell that you are a good person from your comments. If everyone was like you, the world would be a much better place. That goes for most of you here.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:14 pmI dunno, Ralph. I don’t think that it is a straw man to question the validity of the statement that if you vote GOP you must hate gay people. There has been some very strong inference on this thread that that is the case. It is factually inaccurate.
Comment by Keltoi — February 29, 2008 @ 2:05 pm
It is factually inaccurate, yes, and ignores the spectrum of opinions in both parties. But I think you’d have to agree that the preponderance of voices speaking anti-gay rhetoric are on the right side of the aisle. They may not be representative of conservatives or Republicans as a whole – they may not even be the majority or the right, but through sheer volume they drown out the voices of tolerance and moderation. It’s a phenomenon called aspect dominance, and it’s something we can all be fooled by from time to time.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:18 pmComment by Southern Man — February 29, 2008 @ 2:13 pm
Oh please, don’t hold yourself above anyone here.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:20 pmI dunno, Ralph. I don’t think that it is a straw man to question the validity of the statement that if you vote GOP you must hate gay people. There has been some very strong inference on this thread that that is the case. It is factually inaccurate.
Comment by Keltoi — February 29, 2008 @ 2:05 pm
Keltoi, It is pure straw. It’s pure straw because Charles and far too many people that vote Republican aren’t telling their party that the gay issue IS NOT AN ISSUE. We have three people in this thread that are clearly Republican and yet all three have no issue with sexual orientation and yet the Republican party continually brings the issue up at every election. Isn’t it time for you three to do something about it? The Republican’s seem to think that their “base” requires them to interfere in peoples sexual orientation when the reality is they could expand their “base” by abandoning this issue. (same goes for abortion) For the love of humanity get into the 21st century. It would only help the Republicans to dump the religious far right.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:21 pmWondered how long before this one was posted.
Oh I don’t know, maybe he was fearful, and influenced by people with a “holier than thou†attitude — like you?
Comment by Zooey — February 29, 2008 @ 2:13 pm
Why not a real attempt at answering the question? It was real question. How do these things happen?
In the last week the news here carried a story about an 18 year old Senior – a white boy for those who are interested – raping at 14 year old Freshman girl. They were on a school bus with about 60 other students. The video on the bus recorded much of what happen. The boy forced the girl against the bus an proceeded to digitally penetrate her. All reports indicate that the two didn’t know each other.
What happened? Did this guy want to end his life just a few months from graduation?
Was he overly stimulated?
Did the evolutionary juices kick in?
Did he do that because “God made him that way?â€
Did it just happen?
What could have possibly prevented this? bitblt’s ans: He would have to have had a profound respect for the girl.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:23 pmHe would have to have had a profound respect for the girl.
Comment by bitblt — February 29, 2008 @ 2:23 pm
And this would be manifested how? Please say it has nothing to do with any crazy stuff
February 29th, 2008 at 2:27 pmComment by Zooey — February 29, 2008 @ 2:13 pm
Why not a real attempt at answering the question? It was real question. How do these things happen?
Comment by bitblt — February 29, 2008 @ 2:23 pm
Why pretend that Zooey was the only poster to respond to your question?
Why respond only to Zooey and not to others, myself included, who actually offered an answer?
Or were you just trolling for “gotcha” material?
February 29th, 2008 at 2:28 pmBut each one of Chuckles’ distortions of the right-wing stereotype of a Democratic platform is a straw man, as is the overarching insinuation that the original poster was saying such a thing.
They weren’t really artful straw men, either. Like the kind where you guys use a paper bag for the head, y’know?
Comment by ralph the wonder llama — February 29, 2008 @ 2:14 pm
Touche, I was not addressing his run down of Democratic platform planks but was looking at the thread topic point only.
And Verbalkint, I have worked my entire life to keep my heart 100% free of hate, even when tempted to hate individuals who had directly wronged me and harmed me. Exploiting fear of “the other” is a political tactic as old as democracy; whenever it is done it should be condemned.
All of the groups you say the GOP hates and fear mongers against also are exploited by the Dems in counter-point. “Vote for us or there’ll be nooses hanging from every tree in every town in America.” (Not a direct quote, an illustration). Like a lot of things we argue about here, it boils down to which party sucks more. When either of them use underhanded tactics – and last time I checked, Hillary is a Democrat and has fear mongered Obama’s African roots and Muslim name – it sucks and should be condemned.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:29 pmAre you claiming that Clinton or Obama is promoting socialized healthcare? If so, this claim is utterly false.
Comment by VerbalKint
Unfortunately. Actually, Obama has often stated that if he was starting from scratch he would design a single-payer government run health care system. His plan now deals with the reality of what he has to work with. It would be very difficult to tell every health care company “sorry, as of tomorrow you are out of business and all your employees are out of work”. I’m hoping that Obama can take the profit out of health care and all the health care companies like Blue Cross can become non-profits used to help administer the program for the government.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:29 pmbitblt’s ans: He would have to have had a profound respect for the girl.
Comment by bitblt — February 29, 2008 @ 2:23 pm
Sorry bitblt but I need you to clarify. Are you saying he wouldn’t have done it if he had profound respect for the girl?
How about a small shred of respect? It seems he showed exactly zero respect.
If your point is that people don’t respect people, then I agree with you 100%.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:30 pmOops, ralph’s bad — he responded to bitbutt by speaking of himself in the first person.
Apparently, bitbutt doesn’t care for that linguistic construction.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:30 pmIt would only help the Republicans to dump the religious far right.
Comment by Nature Rules — February 29, 2008 @ 2:21 pm
Boy howdy. Alas, I do not control them…perhaps if they hate McCain enough they WILL leave and form a Third Party. That’d be a scary damn party, alrighty!
February 29th, 2008 at 2:33 pmAll of the groups you say the GOP hates and fear mongers against also are exploited by the Dems in counter-point. “Vote for us or there’ll be nooses hanging from every tree in every town in America.â€
Comment by Keltoi — February 29, 2008 @ 2:29 pm
Your point?
Are you actually trying to suggest that, in offering themselves as an alternative to bigotry and fear-mongering, Democrats are somehow as responsible for its exploitation?
Wow, Keltoi. please tell me that’s not the argument you’re trying float here.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:33 pmComment by ralph the wonder llama — February 29, 2008 @ 2:07 pm
bitblt would put these answers in the very plausible and perhaps even likely category.
But – killing someone. Had this kid Brandon, “…gone over the video game edge?â€
An openly gay kid teasing him about being his valentine jeopardized that acceptance.
Could Larry have been trying to embarrass Brandon – intentionally?
February 29th, 2008 at 2:35 pmThere has been some very strong inference on this thread that that is the case. It is factually inaccurate.
Comment by Keltoi
I think the inference that has been made here is not that if you vote Republican you must hate gays. The inference has been made is that because the Republicans promulgate hate in so many ways it seriously impacts the judgment of the people who are Republican. That hate is easily transferred onto gay people because they are a convenient target of this hatred.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:36 pmThis has been an excellent thread. It has had the air of “being in the same room” that is normally missing in blog threads.
Even if the hatred takes it back over now, at least the tone of the exchanges has changed for the better……
It was funny to watch the trolls contribute, whether they genuinly intended to or not…
some good Karma earned here today.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:38 pmComment by Fred — February 29, 2008 @ 2:38 pm
Right, Fred — it’s not often I agree with Chuckles and argue with Zooey.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:40 pmRight, Fred — it’s not often I agree with Chuckles and argue with Zooey.
Comment by ralph the wonder llama
She did try to open a dialog with you about something that bothers her……
February 29th, 2008 at 2:44 pmBoy howdy. Alas, I do not control them…perhaps if they hate McCain enough they WILL leave and form a Third Party. That’d be a scary damn party, alrighty!
Comment by Keltoi — February 29, 2008 @ 2:33 pm
No Keltoi, YOU don’t control them but what would the party leaders do if more and more republicans told them that sexual orientation is not an issue? I realize that the three posters on this thread can’t do anything individually – it is the collective – it is democracy – or at least it is supposed to be. I know it really doesn’t work that way – take the relief package for troubled homeowners – I would bet that most Americans would say the package is a good deal. Alas no, the Republican leadership doesn’t like it.
There Keltoi, I’ve just shown how fruitless it is to get real change done for the good of everyone. LOL (and no I don’t believe the Democratic party would have the complete answer to fix all things, but I’d like for them to give it a try.)
February 29th, 2008 at 2:45 pmCould you be trying to DEFLECT from YOUR BIGOTRY – INTENTIONALLY?
ROTFL!
Comment by republicans hate facts — February 29, 2008 @ 2:38 pm
No, don’t think so.
I was remembering the Matthew Sheppard case – how it started and how it ended. Remember, how it started and how it ended were very different.
The fear and loathing shown to homosexuals is beyond my understanding. bitblt just wants to understand why this fear and loathing exists.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:46 pmFridays are usually the best day of the week for content, don’t know why. Higher level of discussion and less vitriol.
Keltoi,
A serious question for you (and everyone else who wants to chime in, but Keltoi in particular), why is Hillary so hated by the right? She seems to engender a reaction that is almost rabid and I don’t understand it. It seems to go beyond pure politics, is it the fact that she has ovaries?
February 29th, 2008 at 2:48 pmComment by republicans hate facts — February 29, 2008 @ 2:38 pm
BTW, “ROTFL!†isn’t about time you at least learned to sit-up?
February 29th, 2008 at 2:48 pmRalph, Hey don’t pay any attention to me. I’m just a bi-polar old fart who though the tone of the thread was overall positive……
February 29th, 2008 at 2:48 pmCould Larry have been trying to embarrass Brandon – intentionally?
Comment by bitblt
Even if he was, would that mean that was OK that Brandon killed him?
February 29th, 2008 at 2:49 pmwe need to change our PARENTS!
personally i think 2 guys together is completely sick, but if a nice hairy butt crack turns you on….. SOP IT UP WITH A BISCUIT! yuck.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:52 pmComment by Fan of Man — February 29, 2008 @ 2:52 pm
Flagged.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:54 pm#93 — I think I am in love with miss molly :)
February 29th, 2008 at 2:54 pmShe did try to open a dialog with you about something that bothers her……
Comment by Fred — February 29, 2008 @ 2:44 pm
No question. It wasn’t a nasty argument, maybe couldn’t even be called an argument. We just saw things a little differently. I have enormous respect for Zooey and I see what she and missmolly were saying.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:54 pmCould Larry have been trying to embarrass Brandon – intentionally?
Comment by bitblt
Even if he was, would that mean that was OK that Brandon killed him?
Comment by bilbobaggins — February 29, 2008 @ 2:49 pm
Absolutely not.
I do know among the posters under this thread , when the discussions get intense it’s fairly common for some to insinuate that others are gay.
So, could Larry have been intentionally insinuating that Brandon was a homosexual? It’s a question the police will probably ask.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:55 pm#93 — I think I am in love with miss molly :)
Comment by NoMoreBush — February 29, 2008 @ 2:54 pm
get in line, buster.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:56 pmComment by bitblt — February 29, 2008 @ 2:55 pm
To her credit Ellen did note that the tragedy affected more that one family.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:57 pmThe fear and loathing shown to homosexuals is beyond my understanding. bitblt just wants to understand why this fear and loathing exists.
Comment by bitblt — February 29, 2008 @ 2:46 pm
I’d wager that several thousand years of people in power – both secular and religious – preaching the evils of homosexuality has something to do with it.
February 29th, 2008 at 3:00 pmLarry king was my friend that inspired everyone to be true to who they are inside. It pains my to see those pictures as a little kid because he would always wear make up that didnt match his skin tone. i found out yesterday that he died. i cant believe he died. I loved him and the facts that him wont be here with us kills me i asked god last night why he lets these things happen,but i got no answer. we lived together in a shelter in cailfornia he like i had family issues and were removed from our home. The fact that being away from his real home did really upset him he laughted and smiled more then anyone i knew. He got bullyed a lot by other kids there but most of them just stood up for him and for who he was. Never in my wildest dreams i could have i seen this happen.i still ask god the same question as i write this…i will miss my beautiful LARRY. please help me and others put a stop to this. everyone was given a life to live and no one has the right to decide who you should be.
LOVE YOURSELF FOR YOU!!!!
February 29th, 2008 at 3:02 pmgod bless
So, could Larry have been intentionally insinuating that Brandon was a homosexual? It’s a question the police will probably ask.
Comment by bitblt — February 29, 2008 @ 2:55 pm
ralph thinks the police will probably ask, did Brandon shoot Larry, and did anybody help Brandon?
ralph thinks those are the questions the police will probably ask.
ralph thinks the police probably don’t care all that much whether Larry intended to insinuate Brandon was gay, since it makes no difference to the guilt or innocence of Brandon. that’s what ralph thinks.
February 29th, 2008 at 3:03 pmGood Golly Miss Molly, you sure have a lot of fans.
Comment by good_golly — February 29, 2008 @ 3:00 pm
I admit I’m somewhat surprised by all the attention! :-)
February 29th, 2008 at 3:03 pmnanlichi thinks that ralph deserves a thumbs up.
February 29th, 2008 at 3:05 pmComment by hello kitty — February 29, 2008 @ 3:02 pm
Thanks for that, hello kitty.
I’m sorry you lost your friend. The more I learn about him, the more I like him. He seems like he was determined to be who he was, at the most difficult time for anyone to be who they are.
I hope you take some comfort in the fact that his death brought together a lot of his classmates, and they held a vigil and a march calling for tolerance through Oxnard in his memory. He touched a lot of lives. Let’s hope his influence grows.
February 29th, 2008 at 3:09 pmPeople who worry too much about other people’s sexuality, are not so sure about their own!
February 29th, 2008 at 3:10 pmGood Golly good_golly, that was a perfect response at 2:55. Funny how the male homophobes don’t seem to be disgusted with the displays of naked gays in Penthouse.
February 29th, 2008 at 3:15 pmPeople who worry too much about other people’s sexuality, are not so sure about their own!
Comment by sacopenapa — February 29, 2008 @ 3:10 pm
There’s the insinuation.
February 29th, 2008 at 3:16 pmPeople who worry too much about other people’s sexuality, are not so sure about their own!
Comment by sacopenapa — February 29, 2008 @ 3:10 pm
There’s the insinuation.
Comment by bitblt — February 29, 2008 @ 3:16 pm
What insinuation? Sounds like a pretty straightforward statement to ralph.
And one that has some grounding in psychological research and simple observation of human behavior.
February 29th, 2008 at 3:19 pmAre you actually trying to suggest that, in offering themselves as an alternative to bigotry and fear-mongering, Democrats are somehow as responsible for its exploitation?
Wow, Keltoi. please tell me that’s not the argument you’re trying float here.
Comment by ralph the wonder llama — February 29, 2008 @ 2:33 pm
No – I am saying that they resort to bigotry and fear mongering too. You can be bigoted against white people, Christians, Republicans….
All exploitation is bad, all hate is bad, there is PLENTY of hate emanating from the left, you see hateful stuff posted at TP every day.
February 29th, 2008 at 3:40 pmComment by missmolly — February 29, 2008 @ 3:03 pm
I mean this sincerely; It’s not easy being the voice of reason in an enviroment like this.
Comment by Southern Man — February 29, 2008 @ 3:37 pm
I know you were speaking of missmolly, but you certainly can’t think of yourself as a “voice of reason” here as well, can you?
February 29th, 2008 at 3:42 pmI know you were speaking of missmolly, but you certainly can’t think of yourself as a “voice of reason†here as well, can you?
Comment by ralph the wonder llama — February 29, 2008 @ 3:42 pm
Give Southern Man a break — he has the capability of being a voice of reason here as much as anyone else. Sometimes he is, and when he is, I respond in kind.
Check out Keltoi’s comment just above yours (at the time of this posting, his is comment #170). He says “you see hateful stuff posted at TP every day.”
I’m just doing my best to help prove him wrong. Although I admit some days it’s like trying to stem the ocean tide with a broom.
February 29th, 2008 at 3:50 pmNo – I am saying that they resort to bigotry and fear mongering too. You can be bigoted against white people, Christians, Republicans….
All exploitation is bad, all hate is bad, there is PLENTY of hate emanating from the left, you see hateful stuff posted at TP every day.
Comment by Keltoi — February 29, 2008 @ 3:40 pm
The Democratic Party is overwhelmingly white AND Christian, like the rest of the nation. To say that the Democratic Party resorts to bigotry against white people or Christians is just absurd. Republicans, yes.
Of the two parties, the Democrats are the ones with the most widely diverse natural constituencies. The Democrats are the ones who, since the late sixties, have been on the forefront of every movement to include all in the protections of civli rights. The Republicans have moved steadily toward being a monolithic white man’s party and, incidentally, toward being a regional (southern) party as well.
The urge to stand up for the rights and opportunities for black Americans does not demonstrate anti-white bigotry. The demand that all religions be respected as the Constitution proscribed is not anti-Christian.
In the last few election cycles, Republicans have exploited bigotry against gays to win elections, they’ve exploited bigotry against hispanic immigrants to win elections, they’ve exploited bigotry against Muslims to win elections. They’re trying the latter now, with rumors that Obama is a muslim. Please point out which groups Democrats have used as lightning rods to energize their voters? Corrupt Republicans? Guilty as charged.
February 29th, 2008 at 3:51 pmHillary – I don’t hate her. She reminds me very much of a boss I had once, the one person who tempted my soul to poison itself with hatred. But I won that one and wound up pitying her instead.
“Nothing can harm a Good Man in Living or in Dying.” -Socrates
Now, I think Hillary would make a terrible president. First off, it is unavoidable that all the scars from the 90’s would be torn open again – who needs it? No more Bill/Hillary soap opera/psycho-drama. America is in perilous waters, we cannot afford the possibility of more pointless distractions.
Second, the dynastic nature of Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton is troubling, too First Century B.C. Roman for me. Either McCain or Obama would be a much cleaner break from the past.
Third, it is clear to me, and according to polls to a majority of Americans, that she will do or say virtually anything to win and is in it for her own ego gratification. That amount of lust for power is unhealthy, and the only thing less healthy is if the lust is realized.
Last, and it attaches to point three, she just comes across as incredibly insincere. As Mark Geffen said six months ago, “all politicians lie, but the ease with which the Clintons do it is disturbing.” Y’know how every time Bush talks you think “what a lying POS you are”? That is exactly how I feel about both the Clintons, and it bothers me. I think both Obama and McCain are far more likely to say what they really think, regardless of whether you agree or it is popular.
February 29th, 2008 at 3:53 pm#141 – “The fear and loathing shown to homosexuals is beyond my understanding. bitblt just wants to understand why this fear and loathing exists.” Comment by bitblt — February 29, 2008 @ 2:46 pm
Bitbit, minorities are demonized by a few or a majority. This demonization includes spreading calumny and falsehoods about the behaviors and actions of the minority. It’s done against any type of minority you can imagine.
When you dehumanize a person based on false perceptions about their minority status, it’s easier to believe that they’re capable of doing anything. That causes fear and loathing. It’s much easier to bash someone if you fear or loath them.
February 29th, 2008 at 3:53 pmFair enough, SM. I’m pleased that you too recognize the wonderful influence that missmolly brings to the forum.
For what it’s worth, I wouldn’t describe myself as a “voice of reason” here, either. Sometimes I try to be, but most of the time I too get caught up in snark or outrage or Whack-A-Troll.
You do seem to have been making a marked effort lately to dial back the kind of vitriol you brought when you first started posting here. Your comments HAVE actually been more reasoned. I still don’t agree with very many of them, and I find your thought processes often bizarre, but you do seem to be trying.
I’ll still call you on crap when I see you posting it, but I’ll keep in mind your desire to learn.
February 29th, 2008 at 3:58 pmSouthern Man,
We must have a different definition of hate, or at least a different threshold. I don’t think you are as hated here as you might think and as you have pointed out Southern could be Tucson, El Paso or San Diego. It’s a better image to think of you as a pus-gut, tattooed, Confederate flag waving red neck. As far as anyone here knows you could be a Birkenstock vegeterian hippy chick living in Seattle and throwing bombs on TP for a research project for your Psyche 301 class.
Your blind allegiance to Bush is an irritant, but not something hated.
February 29th, 2008 at 4:01 pm>>They’re trying the latter now, with rumors that Obama is a muslim.
And Hillary, a Democrat, has done the exact same damn thing.
>>Please point out which groups Democrats have used as lightning rods to energize their voters? Corrupt Republicans? Guilty as charged.
Comment by ralph the wonder llama — February 29, 2008 @ 3:51 pm
My point is that Democrats absolutely take into account the fear that minority groups have of the white Christian majority and demagoge it into a fearmongering vote-getter. This conversation is similar to the one we were having the other day about the movie Bullworth and the contempt the white Christian Democratic leadership has for the minorities that are so loyal to the Democrats simply because they have cast the Repubs as worse.
Now, SOME Democrats are sincere in their desire to see minorities protected and advanced, just like SOME Republicans are. But political parties, like nations, are not moral actors.
I’ll cede you the point that since the Rs have undoubtably linked their chariot to the majority, culturally dominant group, they are more prone to use ethnicity as a wedge issue. But if you think there isn’t the same thing going on in reverse among the power brokers at the DNC you are kidding yourself, O Llama.
February 29th, 2008 at 4:02 pmComment by Keltoi — February 29, 2008 @ 3:53 pm
Keltoi, I actually kind of agree with much of your assessment of Hillary, except for a crucial point: I think she would be a good president, especially in comparison to Dubya.
Point one, the scars of the 90s being torn open again, that’s not Hillary’s doing. That’s the rabid right-wing who hate successful Democratic governance.
Point two, the Bush-Clinton two-step is troubling.
Point three, her willingness to do or say anything to win, I’m not convinced of this, but her performance in the primary has been disappointing and I think her troubles are largely due to message management. I think there may be something to it.
But as far as the Clintons lying better than most, I don’t know. I haven’t seen too much evidence of it, aside from the thing with the blue dress. Bush, on the other hand, lies to the public and doesn’t seem to care that his lies can be easily demonstrated by the public record. THAT bothers me.
February 29th, 2008 at 4:07 pmWhy is everyone jumping on my miss molly bandwagon on this thread? She is mine for this thread, dammit. Other than the hairy butt crack, this has been a pretty decent thread. Perhaps we can talk Ralph and good golly to confront their party and question why the GOP thinks it is acceptable to play the gay card for political expendiency? If you want the knuckledragging bigots to change, you really cannot espouse policies that suggest an entire class of Americans are second class. Just wonderin.
February 29th, 2008 at 4:07 pm>>They’re trying the latter now, with rumors that Obama is a muslim.
And Hillary, a Democrat, has done the exact same damn thing.
Comment by Keltoi — February 29, 2008 @ 4:02 pm
Bullshit.
February 29th, 2008 at 4:08 pmThanks Keltoi and Southern Man. I understand the logic behind both of your positions.
We do need someone who will unite us, or at least close the gap a bit. The Clinton years were divisive (I blame most of that on your side of this chasm, but let’s agree to disagree on that) and the last seven years have been incredibly so. I think that was Karl’s intent.
Obama or McCain don’t carry that baggage and I would respect a President McCain if I had too.
TP has it’s moments of intelligent dialogue, and it’s share of food fights. I don’t think we have to be all calm, all the time. I appreciate the food fights and the he said/she said threads. Some of the back and forth and scat flinging is pretty damn funny. Or at least I get a few chuckles out of it..
February 29th, 2008 at 4:12 pmMy point is that Democrats absolutely take into account the fear that minority groups have of the white Christian majority and demagoge it into a fearmongering vote-getter. This conversation is similar to the one we were having the other day about the movie Bullworth and the contempt the white Christian Democratic leadership has for the minorities that are so loyal to the Democrats simply because they have cast the Repubs as worse.
Comment by Keltoi — February 29, 2008 @ 4:02 pm
That’s some circuitous route you have to take to get to Democrats exploiting bigotry. It’s pretty close to an “If A is true then Not A must be true” type of argument, and you haven’t come close to demonstrating its validity.
And as for the Bulworth discussion, I don’t recall anything about “the contempt the white Christian Democratic leadership has for the minorities that are so loyal to the Democrats simply because they have cast the Repubs as worse.”
That’s a right-wing talking point that has no basis that I can see in reality.
SOME Democrats are sincere in their desire to see minorities protected and advanced, just like SOME Republicans are. But political parties, like nations, are not moral actors.
See, when you make a statement like this, you set up an ad hoc moral and qualitative equivalency between the two parties that just isn’t there. Democrats make equality of opportunity a part of their platform, and their approach has won them the loyalty of most minorities. The two parties approach minorities in completely different ways, and it has to be admitted that to Republicans, if equality is to come at any cost to the marketplace, it isn’t worth it. Sure, equality is great, but not if a corporation has to give up market share, not if a white kid has to forfeit the benefits of privilege that his family has accrued over generations.
February 29th, 2008 at 4:17 pmThank-you Ellen for speaking out publically. Your voice is heard by millions. I am a gay man raising my daughter with my partner. It is time for a real change in this country. All of these “christians” should take a hard look at what they are doing to this country. I blame them, with their hate speak for this boys death.
February 29th, 2008 at 4:17 pmIts dammit, not it’s. Stupid pus gut redneck nanlichi.
February 29th, 2008 at 4:17 pmPerhaps we can talk Ralph and good golly to confront their party and question why the GOP thinks it is acceptable to play the gay card for political expendiency?
Comment by NoMoreBush — February 29, 2008 @ 4:07 pm
Huh? GOP? “My” party?
Are you on crack, dude?
February 29th, 2008 at 4:18 pm#186 – “TP has it’s moments of intelligent dialogue, and it’s share of food fights. I don’t think we have to be all calm, all the time. I appreciate the food fights and the he said/she said threads. Some of the back and forth and scat flinging is pretty damn funny. Or at least I get a few chuckles out of it..” Comment by nanlichi — February 29, 2008 @ 4:12 pm
I’m right there with you! I think I sometimes let the posts and posters get under my skin a bit too often, which leads me react a bit emotionally. That’s my failing.
February 29th, 2008 at 4:18 pmComment by nanlichi — February 29, 2008 @ 4:12 pm
Well said, nanlichi. Except for the “it’s”
February 29th, 2008 at 4:19 pm#192 – “Well said, nanlichi. Except for the “it’s— Comment by ralph the wonder llama — February 29, 2008 @ 4:19 pm
Careful there! I got “bit” when I corrected the grammar from a previous post! ;-)
February 29th, 2008 at 4:22 pmComment by Democrat Soldier — February 29, 2008 @ 4:22 pm
No worries, DS. I was making a joke about nanlichi’s self-correction in post 189.
February 29th, 2008 at 4:25 pmIts dammit, not it’s. Stupid pus gut redneck nanlichi.
Comment by nanlichi — February 29, 2008 @ 4:17 pm
Depends what the definition of it’s is!?!
You shouldn’t flag yourself….. relax, I said FLAG.
February 29th, 2008 at 4:26 pmralph,
You fix your party and I will work on my grammar. Funny thing is, I can’t even blame it on a typo. TWICE!
My biggest problem is sometimes the vitriol key gets stuck and stays stuck the whole day.
February 29th, 2008 at 4:28 pm>>They’re trying the latter now, with rumors that Obama is a muslim.
And Hillary, a Democrat, has done the exact same damn thing.
Comment by Keltoi — February 29, 2008 @ 4:02 pm
Bullshit.
Comment by ralph the wonder llama — February 29, 2008 @ 4:08 pm
Bullshit? Did I miss the part where the Obama in a Turban picture sent to Drudge was proved not to come from her campaign? Her surrogates – Bob Kerry in particular – have used anti-Muslim innuendo vis Obama, too.
She denies knowing anything about it. How convveeeennient.
February 29th, 2008 at 4:29 pm#197 – “Did I miss the part where the Obama in a Turban picture sent to Drudge was proved not to come from her campaign?” – Comment by Keltoi — February 29, 2008 @ 4:29 pm
Is this the “Pres. Bush” form of “you have to prove it’s wrong, I do NOT have to prove it’s right” method of accusation?
February 29th, 2008 at 4:34 pmNow I see the way all sides work, and i’m trying to figure it all out.
Comment by Southern Man — February 29, 2008 @ 4:32 pm
Good luck Southern Man.
Here’s my take on how things are: To get what you want you need money. Having money gives you power. When you have power people give you money so you can help them get what they want. When people give you money your power increases and you become corrupt. Ok so it’s simplistic, I’m not that complicated a person!
February 29th, 2008 at 4:41 pm#198 – “Just because I question democrats does not mean I am a party loyalist. When I was younger, I was more liberal. I got a little older and started a familky, and I became more conservative. Now I see the way all sides work, and i’m trying to figure it all out.” Comment by Southern Man — February 29, 2008 @ 4:32 pm
I fully understand that there are those on both sides who brush their opponents with broad brushes. I do confess that I believe this to happen more often on the right than on the left, but neither side can claim purity. And I may just be wrong! One never knows!
My mother’s favorite axiom is one I try to remember: don’t be so open-minded that your brain falls out, nor so close minded that your brain suffocates.
February 29th, 2008 at 4:41 pmOh dear God, Ralph, I meant Charles — Brain.Not.Working.Well. I can certainly understand your confusion. My bad.
February 29th, 2008 at 4:43 pm#200 – “When people give you money your power increases and you become corrupt. Ok so it’s simplistic, I’m not that complicated a person!” Comment by Nature Rules — February 29, 2008 @ 4:41 pm
Actually, I think that power attracts the corruptable. When you’re willing to “do what it takes” to get the money/power, you’re more likely to gain that money/power.
February 29th, 2008 at 4:44 pmComment by NoMoreBush — February 29, 2008 @ 4:43 pm
no problem.
February 29th, 2008 at 4:48 pmSure, equality is great, but not if a corporation has to give up market share, not if a white kid has to forfeit the benefits of privilege that his family has accrued over generations.
Comment by ralph the wonder llama — February 29, 2008 @ 4:17 pm
Are you referring to Affirmative Action? Not sure that particular can of worms needs opening….
BTW, suppose your religious beliefs informed you that being gay was a sin and that gay marriage was blasphemy. Do you have a right to follow your moral convictions and not get called a hater and a bigot? I am asking sincerely here; I am not sure if you can answer me though, because like me you can’t imagine having such a thought process, but try it for a second.
Hm. It is tough.
Okay. Are there any good hearted, non-hating Christians who could reasonably support the GOP because they line up with their most basic moral structure? Or are they all hypocritical closeted homophobes that want to kill all the gays?
February 29th, 2008 at 4:49 pmSorry SM, that was a little poke. I don’t think there are more than a few degrees of separation amongst the vast majority of Americans in the middle but the fringes drive the positions. Sometimes it’s on purpose to drive wedges between people and get us to hate the other guys. Neither side has a nut hold on the truth, I think we are all trying to figure it out.
The vitriol key is right next to the sarcasm key, every keyboard is different. The vitriol key cause you to type stuff like “Eat shit and die you stinking pile of dog puke. Your mother braids her pubes!”
Missmolly’s keyboard is defective, it came without a vitriol key.
February 29th, 2008 at 4:50 pmIs this the “Pres. Bush†form of “you have to prove it’s wrong, I do NOT have to prove it’s right†method of accusation?
Comment by Democrat Soldier — February 29, 2008 @ 4:34 pm
Well, Obama himself said set is aside, so I have done the same. The Bob Kerry quote and retraction is undeniable public record. Ralph calling BS on my point regarding Hillary playing the Muslim fear card doesn’t hold water.
February 29th, 2008 at 4:57 pmMissmolly’s keyboard is defective, it came without a vitriol key.
Comment by nanlichi — February 29, 2008 @ 4:50 pm
Whereas RHF’s keyboard resembles the Staples “Easy” Button, it is pure vitriol.
February 29th, 2008 at 4:59 pmKeltoi, you noticed? Some of those never ending Caps Lock posts cause me to do RUCerious’ survival scroll to the bottom.
I am out of here. You all have a good weekend. I mean y’all, SM.
February 29th, 2008 at 5:07 pmI am out of here. You all have a good weekend. I mean y’all, SM.
Comment by nanlichi — February 29, 2008 @ 5:07 pm
Me too, got an SCA tourney this weekend, gotta keep the world safe for Feudalism. Have a good one, all.
February 29th, 2008 at 5:10 pm#210 – “I mean y’all, SM.” Comment by nanlichi — February 29, 2008 @ 5:07 pm
Proper southern plural would be “all y’all’s”. Then again, I grew up in Southern New Mexico. ;-)
February 29th, 2008 at 5:12 pmAre you referring to Affirmative Action? Not sure that particular can of worms needs opening….
BTW, suppose your religious beliefs informed you that being gay was a sin and that gay marriage was blasphemy. Do you have a right to follow your moral convictions and not get called a hater and a bigot? I am asking sincerely here; I am not sure if you can answer me though, because like me you can’t imagine having such a thought process, but try it for a second.
Hm. It is tough.
Okay. Are there any good hearted, non-hating Christians who could reasonably support the GOP because they line up with their most basic moral structure? Or are they all hypocritical closeted homophobes that want to kill all the gays?
Comment by Keltoi — February 29, 2008 @ 4:49 pm
I’ll disregard your Affirmative Action comment because it seems to seek to simplify a complex question to a dismissive soundbite.
As far as your hypothetical about one whose religion teaches him that homosexuality is wrong, I’d say this: if you are a Christian and among the most important lessons you get out of the New Testament is the homosexuality is wrong, your study is being guided by issues far afield of Jesus’ message.
Of course one can be taught and believe that homosexuality is a sin. One can also be taught and believe that the mixing of races is a sin. Or that Jews are evil. Or that God commands us to kill infidels. I think one who reaches the age of being able to reason for ones self and still maintains those beliefs is a bigot, yes. Pretty much by definition he is a bigot.
And your second question, about the reasonably good-hearted conservatives, of course there are. I’m not one who says that all Republicans are bigots or hate gays or hate atheists. I think the majority of Republicans are good-hearted and principled people who have different priorities than I do. But I think, since Republicans are historically a minority party, they are vulnerable to the temptation to exploit hot-button issues to energize their base. Karl Rove perfected this. Many of those hot-button issues are rooted in bigotry and hatred of The Other. If I were a Republican, I would be deeply troubled by this.
Heck, even as an American, I’m deeply troubled by it.
February 29th, 2008 at 5:36 pmMissmolly’s keyboard is defective, it came without a vitriol key.
Comment by nanlichi — February 29, 2008 @ 4:50 pm
Actually, I have one, but it doesn’t work because I have a habit of snacking while I post. Those darn crumbs keep getting underneath the keys…
My snark key, however, works just fine.
February 29th, 2008 at 5:45 pmBTW, suppose your religious beliefs informed you that being gay was a sin and that gay marriage was blasphemy. Do you have a right to follow your moral convictions and not get called a hater and a bigot? I am asking sincerely here; I am not sure if you can answer me though, because like me you can’t imagine having such a thought process, but try it for a second.
Comment by Keltoi — February 29, 2008 @ 4:49 pm
I actually do know people who believe that being gay is a sin and that gay marriage is blasphemy. I know people who have other religious beliefs as well.
My closest friend is a Muslim, and she believes that eating pork is a sin. Ditto drinking alcohol. I have another friend who is an orthodox Jew — he won’t eat pork OR shellfish, and he won’t mix meat and dairy in the same meal, because this violates the laws of his faith and are therefore sinful. He also has a real thing about tattoos, and he won’t drive his car on the Sabbath. I once had a co-worker whose religious beliefs forbade jewelry, make-up, and playing cards — all of those are sinful.
I am able to respect ALL these beliefs because all these people practice their religion without wanting laws passed that force others to comply with their beliefs.
So if someone believes that being gay is a sin, or engaging in gay sex is a sin, or entering a same-sex marriage is a sin — I say that if they want to abide by these guidelines personally, fine. I would only say that person is a bigot and/or a hater if he showed hate for somebody who didn’t follow those particular rules. Just as I would criticize someone who tells me I can’t eat a cheeseburger because it doesn’t mesh with THEIR doctrine.
February 29th, 2008 at 5:59 pmSo if someone believes that being gay is a sin, or engaging in gay sex is a sin, or entering a same-sex marriage is a sin — I say that if they want to abide by these guidelines personally, fine. I would only say that person is a bigot and/or a hater if he showed hate for somebody who didn’t follow those particular rules. Just as I would criticize someone who tells me I can’t eat a cheeseburger because it doesn’t mesh with THEIR doctrine.
Comment by missmolly — February 29, 2008 @ 5:59 pm
Again, missmolly, you said it better than I.
THIS is why you enjoy the esteem of so many here. Well, this and your healthy snark button.
February 29th, 2008 at 6:14 pmmissmolly is HOT. I mean that in the most respectful way. Your views on this issue have been spot on all day. I’m an atheist and because religion is soooooo pervasive it gets difficult not to get all angered up about things – which does lead to hate.
“I am able to respect ALL these beliefs because all these people practice their religion without wanting laws passed that force others to comply with their beliefs.”
This is the real tough one because there are lots and lots of people that DO want laws passed that force others to comply with their beliefs. It is very very very hard to distinguish the two types of religious people. Not criticizing the ones that do want to force their beliefs is paramount to acceptance by apathy. This situation is what makes being a good human being a challenge.
February 29th, 2008 at 7:31 pmEven here on TP threads, how many times do posters taunt each other with jabs at each other’s sexual orientation? How many times do posters call other posters gay or homosexual because they disagree with them? Why is this considered to be the ultimate insult?
I’ve always believed that should stop. Now is as good a time as any to say so.
Comment by missmolly — February 29, 2008 @ 1:06 pm
I agree completely, Miss Molly, and said so above. It likely won’t go over well…
Comment by Zooey — February 29, 2008 @ 1:10 pm
Interesting discussion. I mentioned, a few months ago, how odd it was for libs to use gay slurs as their insult of choice. The only comments were in support of the use of those slurs.
March 3rd, 2008 at 12:36 am.
.
.
As far as your hypothetical about one whose religion teaches him that homosexuality is wrong, I’d say this: if you are a Christian and among the most important lessons you get out of the New Testament is the homosexuality is wrong, your study is being guided by issues far afield of Jesus’ message.
.
.
.
Comment by ralph the wonder llama — February 29, 2008 @ 5:36 p
This is a statement with which bitblt agrees. Indeed, the most important story in the NT is the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
On the other hand, if one studies the NT and doesn’t come to appreciate the importance of marriage – to the man and woman in the marriage, to the offspring of the marriage, to the community at large, and to God – you’re ignoring what’s obviously an important lesson in the NT. See Matthew 19 where Christ says that the Creator intended for a man and a woman to be “one flesh.†This “one flesh†is a union that only and man and a woman can share. You can also read the Apostle Paul who repeatedly uses marriage as a metaphor to describe the relationship of Christ and the Church.
The NT even says that there were homosexuals who gave up the practice after believing in Christ.
Christ was a Jew, and in the NT there is never a suggestion that He disagreed or repudiated Jewish sexual mores. Further, the NT never suggests that a sexual sin in the OT is – for some reason – Ok in the NT.
Reading the linked newspaper article bitblt sees that Larry was living in a shelter for abused children, and this fact suggests a question.
Where were Larry’s parents? Was Larry in a shelter because he was a homosexual and his parents could not deal with this, or had Larry adopted a homosexual persona as a way to get attention because he had been abandoned? Who knows.
bitblt has the feeling that this story has a bunch of layers.
bitblt is suspicions that’s there’s an “Irresponsible Male†in the back story of the shooting and would guess the probability of an “Irresponsible Male†being the root cause of this tragedy at about 85% – that’s 5 in 6.
Perhaps Brandon also had the influence, or lack there of, of an “Irresponsible Male.â€
How many problems would never exist if people gave marriage the respect that the NT says it should have?
No, bitblt doesn’t know. However, bitblt believes it makes more sense to say that someone wasn’t teaching Larry and Brandon a safe, responsible way to live than to say that this tragedy was caused by Christians who know what they believe in the area of responsible sexuality.
Aside: How many millions of lives, and of dollars, would be saved in Africa if there was a strong tradition of one man one woman forever? How many people – in the world – are miserable, sick, or dying because of illicit sexual relationships?
March 3rd, 2008 at 1:42 pmRelated stats for those trying to understand this tragedy.
Applicable stats from http://www.frc.org – Family Research Council
March 4th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
netlog
almanya chat
January 21st, 2009 at 4:33 pm