81% of Americans say government should pay attention to polls.
By on Mar 21st, 2008 at 10:17 pm
81% of Americans say government should pay attention to polls.
In contrast to Vice President Dick Cheney’s dismissive attitude toward Americans’ dissatisfaction with the Iraq war, a recent World Public Opinion poll found that 81 percent of Americans believe that “when making ‘an important decision,’ government leaders ’should pay attention to public opinion polls because this will help them get a sense of the public’s views.’” Moreover, in a sharp rebuke to White House press secretary Dana Perino’s recent claim that Americans only “have input every four years” regarding policy matters, the poll also found that “94 percent say that government leaders should pay attention to the views of the public between elections.”
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We needed a poll to know this???
March 21st, 2008 at 10:20 pmYes, this should send a message to Cheney. If he only paid attention to such things...
March 21st, 2008 at 10:20 pmThat's funny.
March 21st, 2008 at 10:23 pmAmerica's relatively low voter turnout enables elected leaders to dismiss large segments of the population. Leaders hit the hot buttons of voters they can count to turn out for them and ignore the rest. Republicans are also famous for their dance to the middle around convention time.
March 21st, 2008 at 10:28 pmso?
March 21st, 2008 at 10:34 pmWhat about the divine right of the rich and corrupt?
March 21st, 2008 at 10:38 pmLike this White House really cares what the American people think. How many times does Bush and Cheney have to say the American people have no say in what the White House does. If the White House choses to steal and lie they have and will continue to do it. Americans only need to pay taxes and let their children be used to die in illegal invasions for the 2 per cent Rich Americans can get richer by stealing the oil rights in Iraq, next Iran and then to the rest of the Middle East. Cheney has publicly said So but Americans just say yes Sir.
March 21st, 2008 at 10:48 pmVoting is for us SMART people..... move along to your happy meals peasants.
Unbelievably, circuit city is running radio ad's today urging people to spend their "rebate" checks on sony bravia teevees.
March 21st, 2008 at 10:48 pmThat right folks, take your three hundred dollar check to stimulate the economy and spend it as the down payment on something that will ultimately cost you ten thousand dollars by the time you pay it off.
America..... By all means, live beyond your means.
And the other 19%? Oh right, they support Bush no matter what. Polls? We don't need no stinkin' polls!
March 21st, 2008 at 11:02 pmDick Cheney, and his kind, could care less!
http://OsiSpeaks.com
March 21st, 2008 at 11:05 pmSince at least ostensibly it's a government "of the people" one would rationally believe that the opinion of those people would be of utmost importance. Of course, if it's a dictatorship and a government "of the few", then polls become meaningless. Bush & Co clearly don't give a damn about what the people (who BTW pay their salaries and in whose employ they happen to be) believe or want. Never did/Never will. Sick, sick administration is what we have.
March 21st, 2008 at 11:21 pmWhich begs the question: If we employ these individuals who only care about themselves and what they think, isn't it high time to "fire" them? They should have been axed years ago.
March 21st, 2008 at 11:22 pmFire = Impeachment NOW - Both Bush and Cheney.
March 21st, 2008 at 11:22 pmThis is yet another poll the Bush administration will thoroughly ignore...
March 21st, 2008 at 11:25 pmThe remaining 19% are happy to be disregarded. They crave a strong leader who will tell them what to do.
In fact, scoffs from their Dear (mis)Leader is what triggers a doglike adoration in the Bush cult followers.
March 21st, 2008 at 11:32 pm100% of me says that Bush/Cheney spend 100% of their time ignoring 99.9 % of the population and 100% of the polls.
March 21st, 2008 at 11:48 pmIsn't it time for Gigi or Frank M to pop in and say something like "Good thing the president doesn't pay attention to polls. That's what a real leader does."
March 21st, 2008 at 11:55 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
March 21st, 2008 at 11:55 pm
with gg it depends....
March 21st, 2008 at 11:59 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
March 21st, 2008 at 11:55 pm
frank m is a concentration camp guard.
March 22nd, 2008 at 12:00 amRodham Gin Says:
March 22nd, 2008 at 12:07 am
Careful what you wish for.
Best to take one's own advice.
March 22nd, 2008 at 12:13 amGinny,
Do a little research on how the Constitution protects the minority from the will of the majority, then maybe you'll know something.
March 22nd, 2008 at 12:26 amI guess Gin's point is that the government shouldn't take into consideration the opinion of the governed, or look for their consent for matter of public policy.
What's the name for such a government? Oh, yeah... tyranny.
March 22nd, 2008 at 12:33 amGregor Samsa
March 22nd, 2008 at 12:33 am
Ginny has a point? That's a first. ;)
March 22nd, 2008 at 12:38 amZooey - March 22nd, 2008 at 12:38 am
I guess you are right, because the death penalty is still legal (most people want it to remain legal) and same-sex marriage is not (most people don't want it).
So, you are right. Those posts are pointless...
March 22nd, 2008 at 12:42 amWait... what other troll was spamming the threads, not long ago, with links to random articles that they googled?
Oh yeah... goon_golly.
I suspect he's back under another screen name. Flag the twit.
March 22nd, 2008 at 12:45 amAs always, Gregor. ;)
March 22nd, 2008 at 12:46 amOT
Here's a link for Bill Moyer's journal "Body of War". Very powerful stuff.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03212008/watch.html
March 22nd, 2008 at 12:49 amG'night good people.
DIAF trolls.
March 22nd, 2008 at 12:52 amRic Romero sez: "Public opinion says that the public's opinion should matter."
March 22nd, 2008 at 1:24 amI read the first few posts here, and found that none of them realize what the foundation of our government id.
The USA is NOT a democracy, i.e. governed by the whim. The constitution allows for the whim of the people, but limits that power severly. The Senate has the actual job of looking at long-termeffects of the laws that pass through congress.
In 1776 the US declared freedom, it took 13 years to get a constitution.
Why should we expect so much more of others?
March 22nd, 2008 at 1:48 amWhat we have here is a corrupt Republic, who places the needs of the few (Corporations) over the needs of the many (human beings). In other words, fascism.
March 22nd, 2008 at 2:39 amIn RARE instances Rodham Gin
March 22nd, 2008 at 3:11 am20%: Gitmo Prisoners Treated Unfairly
Survey of 1,000 Adults
June 20-21, 2005
Yet 80% are release with no charge
March 22nd, 2008 at 3:14 amRodham Gin Says:
March 22nd, 2008 at 12:30 am
Death Penalty
Remains in Favor
Public Stills Supports Ultimate Punishment
Mankind is not GOD.
March 22nd, 2008 at 3:16 amPoll: Legalize Same-Sex Marriage?55 Percent Polled By CBS/NY Times Said No; 40 Percent S
aid Yes
The question was marriage, not civil union. The argument is not about marriage, but benefits.
March 22nd, 2008 at 3:18 am# Add Karma Recommend (0) | Report Abuse
# Rodham Gin Says:
March 22nd, 2008 at 12:19 am
New Poll Finds Mixed Support for Wiretaps
As we see the wiretapping is not being used for terror, but for political means. We need wiretapping of more politicians
March 22nd, 2008 at 3:21 amLets clean up our government lets legalise political wiretapping foreign and local
March 22nd, 2008 at 3:22 amI HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE LETS TAP THE POLITICIANS
March 22nd, 2008 at 3:24 am>Poll finds broad approval of terrorist torture.
Spare me your loaded polls asking skewered, deceptively worded questions. Until you develop of system of gaining information thats oh, say better than the one used to determine that they knew where saddams wmd were, your not going to know whether the government is torturing terrorists or just political dissidents. likewise, please explain to me how we, the people, are going to know whether the wiretapping going on is "to protect us from terror" or instead, to snoop on your political opponents sex life?
The great thing about this country is that if at least 1 out of 12 randomly selected men + women think your illegal act was justified, NOTHING WILL HAPPEN TO YOU...soo....theres no need to violate the constitution by torturing or snooping ilegally... in the rare, rare instance where such illegal acts save lifes, jury nullification will save the "just torturer" from a jail cell
March 22nd, 2008 at 5:17 amDeath Penalty
Remains in Favor
This claim is misleading. A majority of Americans prefer life in prison without parole to the death penalty, and oppose the death penalty when life without parole is offered as an alternative. Furthermore, support for the death penalty has steadily eroded as more Americans have become aware of the frequency with which this sentence is given to innocent people.
Rodham Gin, I think that you have made your values clear. We all know that you:
a) reject the rule of law
b) support torture of other human beings
c) support imprisonment of other human beings without cause
d) support murder of innocent people
You are morally bankrupt. Your views do not fit in at this site, you have made them clearly known, and you are only posting comments here to provoke and antagonize. Your comments here are not going to help Team GOP stay in power. Comments like these only serve to drive people away from your political party. Now go away.
March 22nd, 2008 at 6:42 amBUSH AND THE TRUTH ABOUT IRAN
The New IAEA regulations should keep newcomers away from producing their own enriched uranium. The US, UK, France, Germany, Russia, China and Japan will become the world’s nuclear filling stations. Under the auspices of the IAEA these suppliers will dictate the rules, the prices and the currencies they want to get paid in. Iran has become the pretext and test case for their plans. The problems of tomorrow’s world economy are being shaped today.
we now have an anti-Iranian alliance of the US and E3. They smell the opportunity for a coup to seize world’s nuclear fuel market. To succeed, they would just need some legal sauce on the prohibition of uranium enrichment by non-nuclear-weapon states, with Iran as example. And a UN Security Council resolution would be enough, if it legalizes IAEA’s stand that it can forbid countries to enrich uranium.
Of course, they would make it impossible for Iran to stay within the Non-Proliferation Treaty then. To succeed their coup, they will have to take care, that Iran does not leave the organization before a resolution is successfully voted. For if so, there would not be any ground for a resolution anymore.
March 22nd, 2008 at 8:31 amRodham Gin Says #20,22,23,25,27,30,32
This is a full time job for you, isn't it?
What no family, job ,career, friends, other interests?
I hope your not one of those people living in a rented room trying to make a living at 20 cents per post. that's no way to live.
Your barrage does highlight the point that polls should be taken with a grain of salt and shouldn't be the foundation on which this country is run.
March 22nd, 2008 at 8:44 amHOWEVER, half of your examples are about theoretical events in the future and all of your examples are a snapshot of a particular moment.
The Iraq war/occupation on the other hand has been going on for five years with an average one American killed and 20 wounded daily and 15-20 billion dollars a week being spend and God only knows how much misery and death the Iraqi people have and will be subjected to because our government doesn't track that metric and the corporate media will never let us see that.
It's now apparent to most Americans that we are digging our own economic grave with this war. We are spending ourselves into oblivion by putting this war on the national credit card. While Europe, Asia and Latin America march into the 21st century, we stagnate.
Americans have been polling as opposed to this pathway to nowhere for years now. This is not just ONE poll.
Rodham Gin Says in #20,22,23,25,27,30,32
Nice job Mr. Troll. You are a real pro. Maybe someday all that hard work will pay off and you will be able to get that one bedroom apartment you've been dreaming about.
In that pile of B.S. you do make one good point that it's good to be wary of polls, but we also need to be wary of trolls too.
your barrage is very impressive at first, but let's take a closer look.
#20/torture- The poll question used the phrase "in rare occasions", not very well defined is that? What's wrong with asking should or should not torture be legal? Yes or no?
No hypothetical fantasy situations involved there.
22/wire tapping- Once again the polling question used a hypothetical situation; “in order to reduce the threat of terrorism.” We have no idea what the wiretapping is being used for. It could be used on political opponents or Presidential candidates, maybe to see if they are employing the services of hookers, which many politicians do as they are often away from home/wives for extended periods of time.
23/ Same sex marriage- As another post points out the actual debate is primarily about civil union for the reason of equality of benefits.
I could go on post by post(the post about Gitmo is almost 3 years old), but that would take more time and I have other things to do. It also helps to fulfill you main goal which is to derail and distract so poeple forget the original point , which is:
AMERICANS HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF CHENEY AND HIS IRAQ "WAR' SCAM.
It would nice if you could find another line of work Mr. Troll and become more productive instead of deceptive and obstructionist.
March 22nd, 2008 at 9:13 amI gotta go!
America's Founding Fathers were very fearfull of "The Tyranny of the Majority". That is why they included the Bill of Rights in the Constitution.
In America and in Iraq...very ethnically diverse countries...Democracy without a bill of rights is Dangerous.
I watched Bill Moyer's journal about the new movie "Body of War". I agree with Pete...very powerfull stuff.
March 22nd, 2008 at 9:18 amSen. Robt. Byrd's eloquent Warning, in Congress's Rush to War in Iraq, was featured. He was definately speaking against Public opinion and the Polls, but he was Right.
Does this mean 19% of Americans would like to live in a dictatorship?
March 22nd, 2008 at 9:30 amSaddam Gin is doing the usual repig game of cherry-picking the rightwing polls htat agree with her sick, unAmerican views. It's that simple. the Fank Luntz's of the US spin machine are the true criminals here, and should be deprived of their citizenships and freedom for turning the US into a policw state by the use of lies and fearmongering. it has led to our weakened state economically, militarily and morally throughout the world. It is exactly what the founders and true patriots throughout history warned us about, that the great mass of lazy, stupid rightwingers would efentually steal the government and allow our freedom to be compromised in the name of money. none of the polls saddam Gin quotes are accurate or true, but that's the methodology of the Right: the Big Lie.
March 22nd, 2008 at 9:49 amAnd Cheney's reply was, "SO?"
March 22nd, 2008 at 9:53 amAnd Bush's reply was, "I don't pay any attention to focus groups."
I think you need a soul and a conscience to care what other people think. That's a prerequisite.
March 22nd, 2008 at 10:17 amThis may be overstating the obvious but, these guys and girls too only listen to lobbyists and shareholders that send money without strings. Nevermind the fact that the voters are the ultimate shareholder.
March 22nd, 2008 at 10:34 amProblem is...
Poll or no poll
The voter isn't doing their job.
Yes, that's right. The people here on this blog at least have the conciousness to look outside at the political landscape and feel something. Right or wrong, they are least feeling the discomfort of awareness.
Most lemmings are content to slog away at work and try to pay off the SUV that they can't get out from under.
It's like the old saying
"driving to a job you can't stand, in car you can't afford, to buy things that you don't need, so you can impress people you don't know or like so that you can return home at night to a family that doesn't recognize you.
It's called wage slavery and it breeds apathy.
It's exactly what they want, it's easier to watch television.
Most people don't vote and voting is the final poll.
There's a difference between pandering and doing the people's bidding. Pandering is when you conduct research polls and adopt all the most popular positions in order to seem like the best choice. A great example of this is Bush during his first run for the Presidency. We learned that he was more of an environmentalist than Gore, that he did not believe in nation building, that he adhered to the Powell Doctrine, that he guaranteed affordable energy prices, that he believed in a strong dollar, that he would keep this country safe from harm. All of these things turned out to be focus group lies rather than actual campaign promises.
However, when the polls run a certain way for several years in a row then I think the politicians might want to take notice. The national mood and national opinion is being revealed to those who are already in office. It is not pandering to do what's right, even if it happens to be popular. But, reversing course would require a little introspection, perhaps an admission of being wrong to this oint, and a plan to extract ourselves from the quagmire. The Bush administration, and Bush and Cheney themselves, are capable of none of these things.
March 22nd, 2008 at 10:35 amAmerica’s relatively low voter turnout enables elected leaders to dismiss large segments of the population.
I'm hoping that this will turn around in November. With the nation in the middle of a recession heading for a depression, I think that many people who didn't vote before will step up to the plate. The Democrats just have to show them who is responsible for the mess this country is in right now. It certainly is NOT the Democrats.
March 22nd, 2008 at 10:54 amYour barrage does highlight the point that polls should be taken with a grain of salt and shouldn’t be the foundation on which this country is run.
For every one of the polls that the idiot troll posted, you could find a poll that shows the exact opposite view. Polls depend on who is doing the polling and how the questions are worded.
One poll that hasn't changed, no matter who takes it, is that 60+% of the people in this country think that Iraq was a mistake and want us the hell out of there. Then there are the numerous polls that show that 70+% of the people in this country think that this country is going in the wrong direction.
So I would like to see this idiot troll come up with a legitimate poll that shows the opposite for those two issues.
March 22nd, 2008 at 11:02 amThis troll accidently clears the air.
This administration uses public support that it earned with lies as justification......but when the public support is lost because the truth comes out this administrations response is...."So?"
wanted leaders with one face please.
March 22nd, 2008 at 11:11 amI seem to recall the invasion had that kind of public support. Important decisions like that ?
WTF do you think the odds are that any future war won’t use the exact same methods to obtain the exact same public support ?
You are correct. The Bush administration has proven that lies and propaganda work very well, especially when they have a complicit MSM.
March 22nd, 2008 at 11:13 amAbout Cheney's, "So?".
I'm certain that John McCain has expressed pretty much the same attitude when it comes to the war and what the American people want. Surely someone with some imagination and talent,(this leaves me out), could come up with something for Youtube that would demonstrate this.
March 22nd, 2008 at 11:18 amThis administration has shown a total disregard for the will of the American people. If they can sway opinion by hook or crook they will use public opinion. If it is going against them they will claim they were given the power by the elelction and that is the only poll that matters.
How many times have the war mongers used the fact that there was overwhelming public support to go to war. Well now there is overwhelming support for ending it.
Public opinion is a skillfully used tool to this administration......it is immoral and un-American.
March 22nd, 2008 at 11:20 amIf people really believe this is what they want in the leaders, it would be pretty easy to get elect. Just promise to govern by polling data when you get elected.
I believe that the founding fathers opted for the representative republic that we have, instead of true democracy, because they probably realized that trying to govern based on rapidly shifting public opinions formed by people without access to all the information.
I feel that we would have better leadership (regardless of the party in charge) with representatives that we elect periodically, then by trying to constantly shift policy, as quickly as an underinformed public.
If you're reading this, you probably have a good grip on many of today's issues. But, are you really willing to assert that the average citizen has the time, inclination or access to the information that would be required to make an informed decision?
March 22nd, 2008 at 11:34 amWhy would the people need to be uninformed? That has become the case in America but it may be our undoing.
This administration has taken matters into it's own hands with the aid of it's corp media friends and is now in control of the information that the bulk of Americans recieve......do you really think that is healthy for a democracy?
March 22nd, 2008 at 11:38 amEverything is a secret and you don't know what we know.
That mentality is a harbor for evil. America is based on open and honest government. There is no legitimate argument for lying to the American people to bend them to your will. I know it has been done in the past by others but this administration has adopted it as their standard operating procedure.
March 22nd, 2008 at 11:43 ambackup Says:
March 22nd, 2008 at 11:34 am
I believe that the founding fathers opted for the representative republic that we have, instead of true democracy, because they probably realized that trying to govern based on rapidly shifting public opinions formed by people without access to all the information.
______________________________________________
I agree that if leadership governed purely by the results of polls, they would have all the productivity of a flag in the wind. Rapidly shifting public opinion is just that, and not a good basis for long-term planning.
I think what has the 81% of Americans feeling the way they do is not the government's reaction to "rapidly shifting" opinion, but opinion that has overwhelmingly gone against Bushco's position and stayed that way for quite some time.
1) The last time Bush got an approval rating from any poll that was at least 50% was in 2005.
2) A clear, decisive majority of the American people believe invading Iraq was a mistake, not worth the effort or the cost, want us out of there, and think Bush is not doing a good job in this area -- and polls have indicated these numbers SINCE 2005.
3) The last time more people thought this country was heading in the right direction than thought we were on the wrong track was JANUARY 2004.
These results hardly indicate "rapidly shifting" public opinion. A good leader, when confronted with numbers like these over this sustained period of time, would at least consider them worth looking at.
March 22nd, 2008 at 11:55 amFred,
You're informed. But you have to admit that most aren't as informed about what is going on. You have an interest that most people don't have.
I am not saying people shouldn't be informed. I would argue that with the 24 hour news cycle and the internet, the public is more informed about what's going on in the world than ever before.
I am only saying that most people have obligations that prevent them from staying fully informed about issues and acting on them.
For the same reason you wouldn't study up to do heart surgery on your Mom, or take piloting lessons to fly your family to Hawaii, you might want someone with the time and inclination to lead us.
We all have a responsibility to assess where the country is headed and judge who is best to lead us when we participate in elections. But, the everyday leadership decisions should be left to our elected representatives, as the founding father's invisioned.
March 22nd, 2008 at 11:58 amThe irony in the posts from these reichwingers is that they advocate a government that would not seek the consent and support from the governed, in essence, backing at home the same type of government that needed regime change in Iraq, and the rationale for deposing Hussein.
Which, in my opinion, shows that the goal of "spreading democracy in the Middle East" is mere hogwash and an excuse for launching wears of aggression, since they are hard at work preventing democracy at home.
Rightwingers. Consistency of thought is not their forte.
March 22nd, 2008 at 11:59 amLincoln said, "Government by the people, for the people..."
Cheney said in response, "So?"
March 22nd, 2008 at 12:04 pmMoreover, in a sharp rebuke to White House press secretary Dana Perino’s recent claim that Americans only “have input every four years” regarding policy matters, the poll also found that “94 percent say that government leaders should pay attention to the views of the public between elections.”
___________________________________________
What I find ludicrous is that the very notion that leaders have no obligation to listen to the people who hired them has been entertained at all.
If I owned a yacht, I would hire a captain to pilot it. Now, if this captain ignored the rules of the sea, maneuvered the yacht in reckless ways (p!ssing off lots of other sailors), and was heading at top speed toward a reef, I'd have something to say about it and I'd d*mn well expect him to listen to me. And if he dismissed me with "I know what I'm doing, I'm far more qualified to pilot this craft than you are, and you don't know what I know about the waters here," I wouldn't be amused.
WE hired the President. He works for US. And if he wants us to trust him to do the right thing, he needs to earn that trust.
March 22nd, 2008 at 12:09 pmmissmolly.
You make a good point. But, if you asked the hypothetical captain to do something (ie. dock the ship in poor weather, or the titanic example of full steam ahead for a record breaking crossing, despite the iceberg risk) you would expect that captain to intercede for your own safety and the safety of others.
We should stay informed and do our best to elect competent leaders, but the reality of the situation, is that day to day, they will have information and knowledge that we will not.
March 22nd, 2008 at 12:16 pmbackup Says:
March 22nd, 2008 at 12:16 pm
We should stay informed and do our best to elect competent leaders, but the reality of the situation, is that day to day, they will have information and knowledge that we will not.
_______________________________________
Exactly why I said that our leaders are obligated to earn our trust.
When JFK was confronted with the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962, he had a great deal more information about what was going on than the American public did. It would have made no sense (and would have been downright dangerous) if he had polled the American public for guidance in that situation.
We have to be able to trust our leaders to do the right thing in instances like that. Fortunately, JFK's actions averted WWIII.
Bush's approach to foreign policy has been as reckless as the conduct of my hypothetical yacht captain. Therefore, any trust the American people had in him has eroded. Yes, he no doubt has information not available to the general public. Yes, we recognize that. No, we still don't trust him to do the right thing.
March 22nd, 2008 at 12:28 pm3996
would be 2800 if Bush took the recommendation of the Iraq study group
March 22nd, 2008 at 12:39 pmbackup,
I think missmolly is saying that JFK genuinly had America's best interest at heart and I agree. Bush on the other hand...well really no one can say that the invasion of Iraq was in America's best interest.
Many of us knew it at the time and so probably did you. This decision was about money for his peer group and it has cost America dearly. In fact we will pay for this mistake for a long time. I think they actually took the consequenses into account and decided it was worth it.
So you can say the poll results show a vote of no confidence.....as they should.
March 22nd, 2008 at 12:41 pmmissmolly. If your making the case that we made a bad choice in leadership and we can't trust them, you have a lot of company.
I'm only suggesting that we don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
This system has been working relatively well for a couple hundred years. It's a better system then polling the citizens once a week and trying to formulate policy on the results. If the current leadership isn't performing, the good news is, they'll be gone in 9 months. We have the priviledge of choosing our next leaders. To let them lead, the best they see fit.
Let's not abandon a sound framework because we're unhappy with the current leadership.
March 22nd, 2008 at 12:50 pmbackup
No one is suggesting that we abandon the framework. We now have 80% of American's who are appealing to our feckless and in many people's eyes, illigitmate leader to change the directon of the country.....that is not out of line and should not be dismissed lightly.
March 22nd, 2008 at 12:54 pmI'm not really here trying to cheerlead for Bush. I just feel the best form of government currently available, is the one we have (even after you account for it's flaws). Let's take a pause before we try to change things.
I suggest that you're not really discontent with the system, but more with the current administration.
If Obama or Clinton where running things, you might feel more comfortable with letting them lead, while you go on with your own life.
March 22nd, 2008 at 12:55 pmThat would be evident. We would not have the fear that those leaders would lead us into an unjustified and illegal war that will kill upwards of a million people including many Americans.
This administration has made a business out of war. It is wrong and immoral and they have done it on the sneak. They are blackhearted and have proven that they cannot be trusted with power. I personally believe that they are so crooked that they manipulated both elections to thier favor.....
March 22nd, 2008 at 1:11 pmbackup Says:
March 22nd, 2008 at 12:55 pm
If Obama or Clinton where running things, you might feel more comfortable with letting them lead, while you go on with your own life.
____________________________________________
Exactly. And if Obama or Clinton was president and conducted himself/herself anywhere near the way the current administration has, I'd be mad as hell at him/her, too.
I have no problem with the current system. And I fully expect our leaders to act in the best interest of America (that's the best interests of AMERICA -- not the best interests of oil companies or lobbyists), operating more from the information they have available than poll results.
However, when our leaders bungle things as badly as Bush/Cheney have, and there's a groundswell of outrage from the people, I expect more of a response than "So?"
It's one thing to do what's best for the country even if it's not popular. It's another thing to show utter contempt for the populace, as Cheney has done.
March 22nd, 2008 at 1:16 pmThis is our problem missmolly, we keep expecting republicans to do what is right for Americans. The problem is that Americans to a repulican are corporations, not people. That is the defining difference between us.
March 22nd, 2008 at 1:28 pmI don't necessarily feel that electing leaders just because they're democrats will solve all our problems (consider LBJ's support of the Vietnam War, economic malaise during the Carter administration, and Hillary Clinton's staunch support of the Invasion of Iraq in 2002 (youtube).
No party has a monopoly on good policy or good judgement. But, if even if you feel that's the case, it's fortunate that we get to periodically pick new leaders.
March 22nd, 2008 at 1:54 pm81% of Americans say government should pay attention to polls.
March 22nd, 2008 at 1:58 pmI question the polls done using only land lines... there is a huge group using only cell phones.
This present administration does not care anyway... Cheney went so far as to say so.
We don't like it when democrats do it either backup......remember what happened to Johnson.
Economic mailaise even if I were to admit it was because of Carters policies is still not what we are talking about here.
Hillary....although I know she is more right leaning than I prefer, I still have no reason to believe that she would be more warmongering in nature than Bill......they don't compare to this group of republicans....no matter how you try to spin it.
Actually I do believe that the democrats have the upper hand on good judgement....that's why I am a democrat. I also understand that bad judgment by republicans have cost us dearly in the past and the same is occurring right now. There is a reason the republicans were in the minority for 40 years....today America is being reminded.
I think there is a place in America for republicans.....that would be as the minority opposition party.....that is the role they are best suited for because as you say....if democrats have all of they power they will misbehave too.
March 22nd, 2008 at 2:03 pmFred, I'm sure you've seen it. But, if you haven't here's the youtube of Clinton before the invasion. Hillary was in lock step with Bush going into the war. (She just does a better job of justifying it):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_KEWUU33Lg&feature=related
I think it's somewhat naive to think that one party is perfect and the other totally incompetent.
If democrats take the white house in '09, better still keep an eye out.
March 22nd, 2008 at 2:08 pmI've got to go to work. Thanks Fred and missmolly for a good discussion.
March 22nd, 2008 at 2:10 pmAny government that claims to be 'DEMOCRATIC' has to pay attention to the people... which is not the case in the USA.
March 22nd, 2008 at 4:21 pmDo you really understand how much this makes you look like somone who supports a dictatorship? Does the phrase "of the people, by the people, for the people" mean nothing?
March 22nd, 2008 at 4:25 pmDreamCrusher - March 22nd, 2008 at 3:26 pm
I'll be the first one to say "So?.... what is your point?"
The death penalty is still in place and same-sex marriage is not legal yet. Plus, decisions on the issues you list are made at the state level, not at the federal government.
And I would venture that most of the people who are against, say, same-sex marriage would also like the government to listen to them. Because that is at the very heart of, you know, a democracy: Consent of the governed.
So what's your point? That we should all bow to the will and expertise of the leaders? Yeah, that's what we should do, given that this administration is doing such a great job with Iraq, the economy, and improving the image of the US abroad. Right.
March 22nd, 2008 at 4:56 pmSo?
March 22nd, 2008 at 7:13 pmSo, may you die in prison, convicted of war crimes, you evil bastard.
Kilo and dreamcrasher,
The bottom line is trust. When people stop trusting their leaders then they have a problem. This administration has failed at every turn and the polls reflect that fact.
You guys are the only fools still supporting them. No one is talking about changing the way things are done. Bush is still making the decisons.....more and more people think he is making more and more mistakes.
It is a vote of no confidence if you will. I for one have heard the following too many times from this admin.
We know things you don't know.....trust us.
We did and found out they lied.....if you can't see how obvious that is then it is because you are voluntarily wearing blinders.
I'm sorry if you have a problem with TP and others who call a liar a liar. We are talking about life and death decisions for our country.
You are supporting a failed administration. This will be known as the dark era of bush II. In 2 years you will deny that you ever supported this administration in any way. You will become the vichi Americans.
March 22nd, 2008 at 11:55 pmDreamCrusher - March 22nd, 2008 at 6:34 pm
Your posts are little more than a long string of strawman arguments. Of course, the "you liberals" allows you to throw broad generalisations, without bothering with offering specifics.
Who in this thread has pretended public opinion is a "statement of fact"? Certainly not me. I take it for what it is: The opinion of the governed whose consent is needed in a democracy. You are aware that such consent is central to any functioning democracy, yes?
As for Cheney, your contention that he knows "a hell of a lot more than the public on the cited subject" is laughable. VP Cheney? The one who was proven wrong about Iraq's WMD, and the Iraq-AlQaeda "links"? The Iraq-war-has-been-a-successful-endeavor Cheney? That Cheney?
Puh-leeze.
March 23rd, 2008 at 12:09 amI think your hairdresser knows more about most things than you do. You are a bush apologist who will rationalize anything they do by saying it might be incompetence, a mistake, bad luck, etc.
If that is true then this admin has had the most incompetent, and unlucky people making decisions in the history of the world.....and you still support them no matter what they do or say.
March 23rd, 2008 at 11:35 amDreamCrusher - March 23rd, 2008 at 11:09 am
You were the one who contended Cheney knows more about Iraq than the public. Well, as it turned out, he was wrong on everything about Iraq. Catastrophically so. There is no spinning this fact.
If that is his claim to competence on the job, he deserves all the scorn, ridicule, and criticism for leading the country into a needless war, and an even more needless occupation of a country that was never a threat.
By the way, Cheney chose to ignore the reports from the inspectors in Iraq who could not find any stockpiles of WMD. That is public knowledge now and was at the time as well. So much for "knowing more" about Iraq.
March 23rd, 2008 at 12:03 pmThe only ones being really ridiculous in this thread are the people defending the one administration that has been proven so wrong, about so much, for so long.
Putting all your money on a losing horse. Now that's ridiculous.
March 23rd, 2008 at 12:08 pmI don't get your point for posting kilo. You just seem to want to show everyone how right you are. Your post at 89 seems to be simply that the American people are stupid and anyone can fool them so why should they have any input. That about it? You throw the "you liberals" thing around and wonder why you draw incoming......
By the way:
March 24th, 2008 at 1:05 amposting here is not a certification for people who opposed the war when it started. Many of us opposed this war from the beginning but didn't post here.....another point of yours that has lost me completely.
My 100% thinks this administration is 100% out of touch with the whatever % of us, so... but at this point we have 0% chance of they listening to us so... We the people must do whatever we need to do to regain a voice and a chance to save AMERICA from those Amerikkkan$$$$$$. so...
March 24th, 2008 at 9:37 pmsounds straight out of an Onion banner
March 24th, 2008 at 11:35 pm