Cheney: staying in Iraq is like pardoning Nixon.
Cheney: staying in Iraq is like pardoning Nixon.
Recently, in an interview with ABC News, Vice President Cheney defended his administration’s refusal to heed the public’s desire to get out of Iraq. “I think you cannot be blown off course by the fluctuations in the public opinion polls,” he said. The Washington Post notes that in a follow-up interview yesterday, Cheney compared decision-making on the Iraq war to President Gerald Ford’s unpopular decision to pardon Richard Nixon for the Watergate scandal:
Thirty years later, nearly everybody would say it is exactly the right thing to do, that if he’d paid attention at the time to the polls he never would have done that. But he demonstrated, I think, great courage and great foresight, and the country was better off for what Jerry Ford did that day. And 30 years later, everybody recognized it.
And I have the same strong conviction the issues we’re dealing with today — the global war on terror, the war in Afghanistan and Iraq – that all of the tough calls the president has had to make, that 30 years from now it will be clear that he made the right decisions, and that the effort we mounted was the right one, and that if we had listened to the polls, we would have gotten it wrong.
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…Thirty years later, nearly everybody would say it is exactly the right thing to do…
Really? I don’t think so. And I think people who have a clue don’t either. The Beverly Hillbilly’s crowd, possibly.
The real atrocity here is that no one is doing anything to rein in this band of criminals. That is what the scandal is and will always be…if we survive as a nation.
Hey, Cheney….go Cheney yourself.
March 25th, 2008 at 10:43 amCheney: staying in Iraq is like pardoning Nixon.
- – Uh huh. And life is like a box of chocolates.
March 25th, 2008 at 10:44 amlook at cheney’s track record so far…
reconstituted nukes…
turning the corner…
last throes…
bush bears the greatest burden…
saddam and al qeuda…
0-5
March 25th, 2008 at 10:45 amI wonder… when the time comes… will Bush try to pardon himself?
March 25th, 2008 at 10:46 amI can understand why Darth Cheney would characterize the Nixon pardon as an example of “great courage and great foresight”.
He probably takes this very personally since he will be in need of one very soon.
March 25th, 2008 at 10:47 amdo pacemakers attract lightning or does karma attract lightning?
either way, we need to get cheney to a thunderstorm!
March 25th, 2008 at 10:51 amActually, Nixon’s pardon emboldened Reagan to negotiate with terrorists to gain the presidency. But then, Cheney knew that, already.
March 25th, 2008 at 10:53 amFord’s pardon of Nixon was one of the dark blots on this nation, and a tacit admission of his guilt.
Iraq is also a dark blot on the nation, and this administration’s guilt about lying us into this war/occupation is obvious.
March 25th, 2008 at 10:55 amThe Republic of Stupidity Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 10:46 am
I wonder… when the time comes… will Bush try to pardon himself?
Or the next best thing-pardon everyone with any credible evidence against him. That will shut them up and make everything just go away.
March 25th, 2008 at 10:56 amThirty years later, nearly everybody would say it is exactly the right thing to do,
I wouldn’t.
March 25th, 2008 at 10:57 amMore on Cheney:
His own people are saying he fomented a Palestinian Civil War.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:00 amLemme get this straight — the end result of Ford pardoning Nixon is that Nixon got a free pass on whatever crimes he might have committed when he was in office. And staying in Iraq is…oh wait…
March 25th, 2008 at 11:00 amJebus!! Who the hell thinks that pardoning Nixon was the “right thing to do” – except for a bunch of delusional neocon kool-aid swillers??
March 25th, 2008 at 11:01 amNixon’s pardon is responsible for the mess we are in today. These traitors are bold because they know that Obama will “heal” the country and let bygones be bygones. There will be no accounting for the crimes of these sick bastards and they know it.
Bush, Cheney, Rove….. I wish them all a long life. With a painful and slow growing cancer that eats their guts and makes that long life feel like a miserable eternity.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:01 amSorry, Dick, it wasn’t a good idea to pardon Nixon. It set precedence for criminals like you to be absolved of their crimes.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:02 amAnd the beat goes on Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 10:56 am
Or the next best thing-pardon everyone with any credible evidence against him. That will shut them up and make everything just go away.
__________________
Kinda a blanket immunity for his entire administration?
Will folks be lining up to kiss Don Bushleone’s ring?
March 25th, 2008 at 11:03 amstaying in Iraq is like pardoning Nixon
Yeah, and the invasion of Iraq is like just like the break-in at the Watergate Hotel.
Then there is the illegal wiretaps, the money laundering, the pay-offs to cronies, and the cover-ups.
More than grounds for impeachment.
Thanks for the reminder, Mr. Cheney.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:04 amThirty years from now Cheney will be taking a dirt nap. Why should he care if the war is still being fought and my grandsons and great-grandsons are in Iraq dodging bullets.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:07 amTawdry Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 11:07 am
The only bullet Cheney ever dodged was from the draft board.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:11 amAnybody watch PBS Frontline last night?
March 25th, 2008 at 11:11 amCheney runs the show.
Cheney and Rumsfeld, relics from the Dark Days of the last Dick to run the country pushed us into this mess. They linked Saddam to 9/11 on 9/12 and bulldozed all of the opposition to invading Iraq, evidence be damned. I’m betting that Cheney’s got at least one more big surprise for us before he rides off into the sunset.
The majority of people said it was the “wrong” thing to do since Day One of this war. Either the people are much smarter than Deadeye Dick or he’s suffering from senile dementia.
In 30 years, the travesty of this war based on lies will be recalled as the “single most destructive decision” ever in the history of the country.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:12 ammr irony; you forgot the latest Cheneyism. about the 4000 US dead in Iraq; He said “they volunteered.”
It’s his way of saying that they got what they asked for and deserved to die for his lies.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:12 amThat, from a coward who hid behind 5 draft deferments!
interesting that he brought that up, being as it was the inspiration for all
the underhanded, secret and subversive doings in HIS administration…
i’m thinking it’s common knowledge that the pardoning was a big mistake,
the reason why the criminals think they will get away with it again…
and, they just might…
March 25th, 2008 at 11:12 amMr. Evil: That’s correct. He’s a “triple dodger” – with 3 deferrments. What a coward.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:12 amI stand corrected I guess – I thought it was only 3. 5 is disgusting.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:13 am#19: That’s kinda the point: He doesn’t care if the war will still be fought in two years or thirty or that anyone’s children (let alone grandchildren) will be dodging bullets. He and his buddies have made their money and are ready to retire. That’s all they care about at this point.
And you know that if a Dem wins the election, the reslugs will blame every aspect of a failed war on the Dems.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:13 amDick Cheney will be remembered in history as the darkest, most evil charlatan ever to hold public office.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:14 amCal Malenky at 11:11 am
…I’m betting that Cheney’s got at least one more big surprise for us before he rides off into the sunset.
i figure that’s what this latest trip was about…
March 25th, 2008 at 11:14 amgetting all the players lined up and ready…
#27 They can blame the dems all they want. The facts will stand in history: This is the “Bush/Cheney War for Oil” which tanked our economy, created a national debt which will not be paid for decades, if ever, and turned this country into one of the most reviled groups of people in the world.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:15 am# cerberus Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 11:12 am
In 30 years, the travesty of this war based on lies will be recalled as the “single most destructive decision” ever in the history of the country.
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There won’t be a USofA in 30 years. Not that it matters to Dick. His family will be living in Paraguay on all the stolen money.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:15 amIt terrifies me that people like cheeennney and addington and bush and gonzales and the list goes on, get to walk around free; vomiting this stuff up daily for the MSM to gobble up; and, we the PEOPLE let them continue?
Chuck Todd says McSwain gets a pass because Todd got the last rib from the bbq; ABC let’s darth skate on the “So” comment because they’re afraid of repercussions if they say anything; Fox tells the Supreme court to blow it out their ears; and the swill just keeps running…
ALL of this, SCOTUS on down, is a LIE! Let’s just call it that and move on..obviously nothing to see here..let’s go to the mall..
March 25th, 2008 at 11:15 amAnd that doesn’t even scratch the surface of the horrendo karma which the blood of 4,000 of our own and 600,000 innocent Iraqis brings to ALL of the architects of this war AND those politicians who continue to support it.
Blood karma will follow each of the offspring of these neofascists into their graves.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:16 amIf Nixon and the Nixon crowd would have received lifetime imprisonment as the traitors they were I’m kinda thinkin’ here that Iraq or bin Laden or Iran would not have surfaced on any radar screen in their present assesments as a dangerous threat other than they are sitting on the McBush/McChaney/McCrazy personel oil fields…just my opinion.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:17 amThe rest of the international community realize that this is a totally “illegal occupation” which was based on falsehoods and lies. They also recognize that this single blunder by us (world power?) has GROWN terrorism in it’s wake. We’re a thousandfold less safe, thanks to these criminals in the white house. They should all be behind bars right now.
Impeachment hearings MUST begin!!
March 25th, 2008 at 11:18 amCheney is SO right…. Pardoning Nixon was a shameful act that prevented any accountability for the crimes that Nixon and his cronies committed. Finally, as word of truth…
Meantime, Cheney (aka GW Bush) are the worlds leading terrorists. Proof is available, using the FBI definition of terrorism. Of course, they, too will go unpunished.
For the evidence and the numbers see the editorial at TvNewsLIES.org/tvnl:
http://tvnewslies.org/tvnl/index.php/editorial/reggies-commentary/20-regs-thoughts/739-what-the-hell-is-an-unpopular-war
March 25th, 2008 at 11:19 amIf an election wouldn’t be right around the corner, there is no doubt in my mind that charges would be brought against these thugs. The people are just holding their breath that time will zip by so that we can rid ourselves of this “evil within”. After that, they will be walking pariahs in their own country.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:19 amThe true terrorists are sitting in our midst.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:20 amI don’t call a strong, persistent 2/3rds against the war, over a long period of time, a “fluctuation” in public opinion. Ass.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:20 amand holding public office as we type.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:20 ammake that
http://tvnewslies.org/tvnl/index.php/editorial/reggies-commentary/20-regs-thoughts/739-what-the-hell-is-an-unpopular-war
March 25th, 2008 at 11:20 amFor Truth: As always, these liars spin the truth anyway they see fit. Fortunately, for 2/3 of us they’re all asshats and no one respects or listens to a word (lie) they speak.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:21 amFan of Man at 10:51 am
do pacemakers attract lightning or does karma attract lightning?
either way, we need to get cheney to a thunderstorm!
heard on maddow:
The maker of a common medical device issue a press release that sounds like a terrible pick up line heard at a tech convention. WARNING: Your heart may be hacked.
http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/03/wifi-pacemaker.html
March 25th, 2008 at 11:21 am“compared decision-making on the Iraq war to President Gerald Ford’s unpopular decision to pardon Richard Nixon for the Watergate scandal”
Interesting that he should be bringing up the Nixon pardon. Is he planting the seed that pardons might be necessary to help heal the country after the extent of the crimes and malfeasance will come to light at the end of this administration. “c’mon people! It was a good idea then, and it would be a good idea now!”
This administration has learned at least one thing from the Nixon era; destroy all the evidence. They got rid of all the inflammatory e-mails unlike Nixon who kept the tape recordings.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:23 amI don’t think these are equal comparisons. Nixon was a slime ball, that’s true, but he wasn’t bankrupting the country with a war he started with lies, and kept it going to enrich the defense and war industries.
And, no, Uncle Dick, I won’t think this war was a good idea, or worth it, in thirty, or sixty, or a hundred years. I don’t think it is worth is right now.
BTW, I was one who thought Nixon was the worst president our country has suffered through – until George W. (and puppet master Dick) came along. Nixon and Agnew are now second by a wide, wide, margin.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:23 amshadow7: Thanks for the link – good one! :)
It’s called the “dumbing down of america” and may have to do with some psyops on the order to do with sound waves and certain chemicals in our food.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:23 amcaredmanI Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 11:22 am
So any thoughts on the threads topic? ie Cheney comparing the Iraq war to the pardoning of Nixon, or have you not gotten your talking points about this, and are recycling some old hat in an attempt to appear relevant.
OT: It is funny watching these guys say how in X years we will understand and appreciate what they have done. I guess when don’t want to admit the mistake you made, then you just have to deal.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:25 amGoogle: HAARP experiments. Sounds plausible to me and would explain the apathy of most americans regarding the corruption of the Bush/Cheney administration. And, what’s more, I wouldn’t put it past them to be doing this to us.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:26 amGuido: Pardoning Nixon was the beginning of the end of lawfulness in this country and political landscape.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:27 amcaredmanI Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 11:22 am
Anybody here who can translate Crapola into English?
This one is having a hard time making sense this morning.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:27 amcerberus
I think these thugs will never see the inside of a courtroom as defendants..If they ever get strung up it will be by pitchfork carrying screaming crowds.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:28 amAnd 30 years later, everybody recognized it.
Who is this “everybody”? Is that kind of like the royal “we”?
I think pretty much everyone thinks that Ford pardoning Nixon was just what it really was, Republicans putting party before country. Just exactly what positive outcome did this country get from Nixon being pardoned? All it did was set the stage for the lawlessness of the current Republican administration.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:31 amUh, no. Had Nixon not been pardoned, this criminal cabal would not be in power today.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:32 amLet’s not overlook the obvious that Cheney’s still fighting over 30 year old battles.
Cheney was a White House Official in President Ford’s Administration.
Cheney was Assistant to the President working for Rumsfeld who was then Chief of Staff to Ford.
When Rumsfeld became SefDef, Cheney became Ford’s Chief of Staff.
When Ford was running for the 1976 bid, Cheney was his campaign manager.
Out of the ashes of Nixon, no doubt that Rumsfeld, as COS to Ford was a key player in helping Ford weigh the Nixon pardon request.
And Cheney was Rumsfeld’s confidante – it was probably Cheney pushing for the Nixon pardon (having been delegated the task by Rumsfeld).
So I get Dick’s pride of ownership of the Nixon pardon. Getting that done also put him in super-good graces with the ex-Nixon elites.
What I don’t get is the linkage to Iraq.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:36 amYou could argue that pardoning Nixon started this crap. Any President who thought he could wind up in prison for subverting the rule law, the constitution, and the will of the people is not going to assert a “unitary executive” unless he wants to do it behind bars.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:37 amMeantime, Cheney (aka GW Bush) are the worlds leading terrorists. Proof is available, using the FBI definition of terrorism. Of course, they, too will go unpunished.
See where this is going? Just like pardoning Nixon was a positively crackerjack idea, pardoning our current pair of war criminals would be truly sublime.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:42 amBush and Cheney think they speak for others. Bush though he spoke for “the World” when he decided to invade Iraq. Cheney doesn’t care what anyone thinks but still believes that “everybody” agreed that pardoning Nixon was the right thing to do.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:45 amOh, and you can bet that a pardon for “Edgar Bergen and Mortimer Snerd” would be one of the first orders of business for a McCain/Lieberman administration.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:47 amMakes me retch. I just had a physical gag reaction to this inhuman thing’s comments. My God.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:48 amThe white house (and executive building)needs an enema.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:52 am“Cheney: staying in Iraq is like pardoning Nixon.”
In other words, unethical, immoral, criminal, Cheney’s favorites.
Bush/Cheney
March 25th, 2008 at 11:53 amHague Trials ‘09
Lewis Black is the only one who can summarize Cheney’s insane Iraq statements in a way that can make me feel sane. Honestly, I think that Cheney is an unfeeling cyborg sometimes…
VIDEO -
Lewis Black On Cheney, Iraq
http://www.redlasso.com/ClipPlayer.aspx?id=14e95a9c-6c2f-4244-ba57-60913ae77235
March 25th, 2008 at 11:55 amCheney is correct in that there are similarities between these two tragedies in our history.
Let’s make sure those who created the Iraq mess don’t get away like Nixon didn’t.
Thanks for the reminder (you) Dick.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:57 amPardoning Nixon was the WRONG thing to do.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:59 amBecause he paid no price,Republicans figured out they could get away with crimes,so we had Iran/Contra and a torture president.
I was just out of high school during the height of Watergate, and I remember the events between the break-in and the resignation quite vividly. When Ford pardoned Nixon in 1974, I supported it. Not because I was a Nixon fan (quite the opposite, I thought he was a lying scumbag who flagrantly abused his power and had nothing but contempt for the American people), but because I thought it was important to put the “long national nightmare” behind us and move forward.
Americans were quite weary of Watergate at that time, and the general consensus at the time seemed to be “we just want this guy gone.”
Looking back on the situation years later, I realize I was wrong in my thinking. Pardoning Nixon sent a clear message to future presidents that they can run roughshod over the constitution, crap on the country, abuse their office, basically do whatever they want with impugnity, and know they don’t have to be held accountable.
Cheney is wrong if he thinks that everybody was against the pardon in 1974 and now accepts it was the right thing to do. I accepted the pardon in 1974 and now believe it was utterly the wrong thing to do. And I would bet my next paycheck that I’m not the only one.
Likewise, there will be some who accept the Iraq occupation now, but will come to believe it was wrong 30 years from now (or sooner). So, I guess in that regard Cheney is right in that there are some parallels.
March 25th, 2008 at 12:04 pmOT; check this one out at http://www.rawstory.
Remember when W. tried to justify invading Iraq that Saddam “tried to kill my daddy.”? Even that flimsy excuse is falling apart.
March 25th, 2008 at 12:05 pmUncle Ho, read that earlier. Sort of puts another bullet in that already dead horse.
I’d like to see the MSM pick this up. Won’t be holding my breath.
March 25th, 2008 at 12:08 pmSure Dick, we’ll just ignore all the dead people and missing limbs and money, and pretend this is just some kinky Republican Soap Opera…
March 25th, 2008 at 12:24 pmThe Dick may not be lying here.
Think about it: he pays no attention at all to anyone who doesn’t agree with him. Their opinions don’t count, and so by definition for the Dick, what’s good for the GOP is good for America.
Ford’s pardon of Nixon was undoubtedly the best thing for the GOP, and thus, everyone whose opinion means anything to the Dick, believes it was the best thing “for America”.
Those who dispute this opinion don’t count.
March 25th, 2008 at 12:44 pmDick’s still living in the 70’s.
He still beleives Nixon didn’t do anything wrong given that the president should have the right to do anything he wants(sound familiar?).
What an idiot.
March 25th, 2008 at 12:49 pmDick, why don’t you go fu(k a pencil sharpener.
March 25th, 2008 at 12:54 pmCheney hopes he’ll get a pardon too. Time to put some of these crooks in jail.
March 25th, 2008 at 12:54 pmDick loves to rewrite history – the classic Orwellian mind.
March 25th, 2008 at 12:55 pmBy the way, ford’s pardon of nixon was wrong and will always be a travesty.
Someone needs to stop him from drinking too much before he opens his pie hole. This man is clearly a joke, who has no creditability at all.
March 25th, 2008 at 12:55 pmIf you’re realistic, you will admit that polls don’t always show what the future will deem as appropriate. There are many reasons to oppose Bush’s actions in the war on Iraq and our continued involvement.
But, many events in history that unpopular when they happened, are viewed less critically in retrospect.
Here’s a resent article examining the Ford pardon in retrospect.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/29/news/pardon.php
There are many other examples (i.e, Truman’s approval ratings from when he was in office vs. today; and Lincoln’s sincere belief that the Civil War’s unpopularity would make his re-election unlikely).
We cannot give up scrutinizing the actions of our leaders, but we should also be mindful that today’s active partisan environment could be masking a more accurate assessment of the effort.
It is possible.
March 25th, 2008 at 12:59 pmActually, Nixon’s pardon was a crime. The idea that we can’t afford to hold President’s to the nation’s laws is profoundly corrupt and anti-democratic. Of course the authoritarian Cheney likes such moves!
March 25th, 2008 at 1:01 pmCaptain – This is not WWII, Bush is not Truman, and if Ford hadn’t pardoned Nixon, we’d wouldn’t have a gop-mafia running our government.
Listen to what the old-guard Conservatives have to say about what’s happening now – I do.
March 25th, 2008 at 1:03 pmRUCerious Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Dick, why don’t you go fu(k a pencil sharpener.
Because the whole is too wide?
March 25th, 2008 at 1:04 pmThe funny thing about this particular asswipe (Cheney) is all the macho and chauvinistic crap talk that the ignorant masses celebrate because it gives them some comfort. But when he is confronted by a passing man that says to him: “Go phuck yourself” Mr. Cheney, he just freezes.
That’s the way with murderers, they are all cowards. Just ask Hitler.
March 25th, 2008 at 1:09 pmDick, dick, dick.
March 25th, 2008 at 1:12 pmbackup Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
If you’re realistic, you will admit that polls don’t always show what the future will deem as appropriate. There are many reasons to oppose Bush’s actions in the war on Iraq and our continued involvement.
But, many events in history that unpopular when they happened, are viewed less critically in retrospect.
I find it very telling that BushCo and its apologists are reduced to pointing out that some things that are unpopular later prove to be good ideas in retrospect.
It’s a pretty blatant admission that the BushCo Administration has been a failure and has to hope that things turn out okay, or that people forget just how bad for the nation their policies have been.
It’s also a very weak argument, as demonstrated by backup’s “strong” closer:
“It is possible.”
Makes me think of Judy Tenuta (80s-era comedian) who who follow up any number of implausible scenarios with the CHicago-accented tag line “…it could happen”.
March 25th, 2008 at 1:20 pmtombaker.
I haven’t really thought about the implications of pardoning Nixon. I haven’t made a decision whether that was good or bad for the country.
I’m just making the point that peoples opinion of a particular situation sometimes (often?) change after we’ve had a chance to reflect on it.
In the early 70’s, most people thought Vietnam was a bad idea. That sentiment hasn’t changed.
But, people were unhappy with the Civil War in the 1864, and Lincoln’s re-election was in jeopardy. There was serious consideration of replacing Washington as commanding general during the winter of 1777 (Valley Forge) because people were not satisfied with his performance. And today, I would argue that most approve of Truman’s decision to use the A-bomb (this is a decision that I believe will be considered more negatively as time goes on, it will be interesting to watch).
The future may view Bush’s Iraq War as a complete failure. It could (depending on how event’s unfold) be considered an appropriate move to address the world’s terror concerns (today, bin Laden believes that Iraq is the main front on the war on terror).
What the public thinks today. And what the public thinks in 30 years, could be two different things. Additionally, just because the public believes it, doesn’t necessarily mean, it is a correct or incorrect policy.
March 25th, 2008 at 1:21 pmhelenahandbasket Says:
Dick loves to rewrite history – the classic Orwellian mind.
By the way, ford’s pardon of nixon was wrong and will always be a travesty.
He’s not actually rewriting history. The only historical facts in his statement are that Ford did pardon Nixon and that public sentiment was against it.
Everything else is Cheney’s assessment of those facts. It should surprise no one that Cheney regards Nixon’s pardon as a great idea because Cheney, as an advisor to President Ford, was instrumental in the making of that decision and, as we all know, Cheney believes he never made a bad decision in his life.
And, if you think otherwise, you can go f#*@k yourself.
March 25th, 2008 at 1:26 pmWhat the public thinks today. And what the public thinks in 30 years, could be two different things. Additionally, just because the public believes it, doesn’t necessarily mean, it is a correct or incorrect policy.
The public is the boss. PERIOD! In the Roman days, the people did accept their leader was going to be a dictator – they understood that. In the US, Bush and shooter think that they too, were made dictators due to their stealing two elections. The MSM likes the idea of a dictator – not an elected peoples representative. Every word shooter says is bought and paid for by you and I. Every mistake he makes is reflected back on you and I. Every war the five deferrment cheney talks about is our debt. All of the shenanigans going on in the WH is paid for by you and I.
And some would say that we don’t have a voice? We pay for everything. We will suffer for all the misdeeds. Our great grandchildren will be paying for these crimes, but we don’t have a say? If you believe that, you are an enemy of this country. We pay taxes for a level of representation and voice within the government. it is our government – not the temporary squatters currently in our WH and Congress.
March 25th, 2008 at 1:31 pmGee, let me see. The Straussian socialists do wear flag pins. So they’ve been thoroughly vetted by Fox Security and are A O.K.. (imagery)
http://www.light-to-dark.com/the_third_act.html
In fact, they’re all Neo Con heroes!
http://www.light-to-dark.com/preemption.html
March 25th, 2008 at 1:33 pmralph.
I concede your point about my weak closer: ‘It could happen’.
My objective is to be more reasonable, that’s what I was attempting.
There are some big questions surrounding the war in Iraq. If you project today’s atmosphere in the middle east and the sentiment surrounding the war in Iraq, I would concede that the war in Iraq will look more like Vietnam than WWII.
But, I believe it is mostly dependant on how Iraq fares in the future.
If the country can be stabilized, with a functioning government and economy with solid formal relationships with the rest of the world; the effort could be considered worthwhile.
If the situation decays future into a protracted bloody Civil War and genocide, it will be judged a failure.
The ongoing question seems to be, how much effort do we expend to promote a stable Iraqi future. Is it worth it?
March 25th, 2008 at 1:34 pm86 – Can’t argue with that – a bunch of the public at one time thought W was going to be a good president too – now they very clearly do not. There’s no cure for stupid, and nobody’s got a crystal ball.
But,just because we acknolwedge these things are not consistently predictable doesn’t mean we’ve produced a justification to keep pouring blood and money down a hole.
By your reasoning, we might as well give up on the idea of voting, and let the money-kings and their military knights rule us like ignorant serfs, as they appear to want to do anyway.
An election is really no more than a poll to which real consequences are attached.
I was raised as an American – to count myself as fully equal to anyone else without regard to money, parentage, or providence. That’s the way we’re supposed to view ourselves, not as pawns or servants or glee clubbers.
March 25th, 2008 at 1:39 pmYou mean like the Viet Nam War? How many years do you figure that will take until it’s deemed a good idea?
March 25th, 2008 at 1:39 pmSadly, I suspect he really could. That must be why he’s treated this country as one big pi$$ing contest.
March 25th, 2008 at 1:41 pmStratRat
I disagree, here’s why. (DreamCrusher bought up this point yesterday, but his posts were deleted):
Most people oppose gay marriage. If there the boss, do you support banning gay marriage?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/02/24/national/main601828.shtml
March 25th, 2008 at 1:41 pmHey, HEY, HEY! I prefer to think of it as an Eastern European accent.
March 25th, 2008 at 1:45 pmbackup Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
The ongoing question seems to be, how much effort do we expend to promote a stable Iraqi future. Is it worth it?
Nope. The ongoing question is “is it possible?” And the answer appears, unequivocably, to be NO. Therefore, expending American lives if clearly not worth it.
March 25th, 2008 at 1:46 pmI disagree, here’s why. (DreamCrusher bought up this point yesterday, but his posts were deleted):
Most people oppose gay marriage. If there the boss, do you support banning gay marriage?
I see your point…My angle was more on the ‘esoteric’ side. That is, since we the people are on the hook for all of the errors and misdeeds, should we not have a say in how our voices are heard in the political discourse. It seems like taxation without representation, if we are unable to get our voices heard. We pay for the effort, but are unable to speak to power about their use of our treasure or lives.
March 25th, 2008 at 1:46 pmYour premise is that the ends justifies the means. If the ends turn out well, then the means are immaterial. This is ALWAYS WRONG. Bush’s Iraq War was perpetrated on grounds that were first and foremost a lie, secondly illegal, and thirdly immoral. The war and occupation have been executed in a phenomenally incompetent manner. Hundreds of thousands of lives have been lost. Hundreds of billions of dollars have been wasted. The U.S. economy has been perhaps mortally wounded. The Iraq war will NEVER be considered worthwhile. The Iraq war will ALWAYS be considered a failure. It already is, and it will remain that way no matter how “stable” and wonderful Iraq becomes.
March 25th, 2008 at 1:47 pmhere comes the condemn/condone mythology…
“If you don’t condemn a thing, it means you condone it, and there is no other ground.”
Those poll results re: gay marriage would turn out a lot differently were there an “I don’t care because it’s none of my business” response option, but that’s never one of the multiple-choice answers.
Not to mention there’s a huge apple-orange problem with gay marriage/Iraq “war”, Captain.
March 25th, 2008 at 1:47 pmThis was from April 2003 (wikipedia):
Does the fact that most people favored the war at the time, mean it was a good idea? If the people are the boss – shouldn’t there 2003 support be justification enough for the war?
(BTW, I don’t advocate that polling should drive policy. I ask the question to highlight the fallacy of the idea).
March 25th, 2008 at 1:49 pmKeep up with your party why don’t you. The new spin is it’s about the oil that we are still so dependent on. Even though 5 years ago your people kept saying it was not about the oil. It was about WMDs and terrorists. It’s about the OIL! How are those prices working for you?
March 25th, 2008 at 1:50 pmtombaker. I agree with your point about how it changes based on how you ask the question.
March 25th, 2008 at 1:57 pmAll this speculation about remaking the Middle East through military intervention is hyper-simplistic fantasy talk.
It’s like a person diagnosed with a brain tumor, who then goes home and starts hitting themself in the head with a hammer to cure it. No matter what anyone says about the approach, they insist on keeping it up.
No doubt they will eventually do some damage to the tumor, but only at the cost of a serious and potentially lethal head injury.
March 25th, 2008 at 1:59 pmtombaker. I also see that gay marriage is not like the war in Iraq.
But, I’m confident that you will agree that sometimes the public is wrong on an issue. I suggest that is the reason the founders opted for a representative republic and not a true democracy.
March 25th, 2008 at 2:01 pmtombaker. Let’s assume that Bush’s forray into Iraq was a total mistake and a distraction from finding bin Laden.
If you believe bin Laden’s last message, he implies that Iraq is the most significant front for the war on terror (or jihad).
Isn’t it better that bin Laden considers Iraq the main front; and not the U.S or Europe? (his back yard, not ours)
Additionally, do you feel that it would be better to surrender the situation in Iraq, if bin Laden and other jihadists, feel that it is their main objective? Does our retreat strenghten their position or does in make them impotent?
March 25th, 2008 at 2:07 pmShayne:
I believe oil prices are more effected by speculators that believe that a dwindling worldwide supply coupled with soaring demand from developing countries (China, India).
If you have information that the war in Iraq has significantly impacted oil prices, I’ll read it.
March 25th, 2008 at 2:13 pmThe public is usually misinformed on any given issue.
I’ve got no problem with the way our government was laid out by the Founders. The problem arises when a vested minority subverts that system using deception to carry out a veiled agenda, and the built-in mechanisms for handling those situations are politicized to the point of being useless.
I think the Founders would put the blame squarely on the public’s shoulders for ceding their responsibilities to charlatans, with something left over for a negligent Press establishment.
Where we are is exactly where unbridled capitalism inevitably leads us – to the best gov’t money can buy (which is not the best government for you and I).
March 25th, 2008 at 2:17 pmYour assumptions and questions miss the mark. Bin Laden wanted the U.S. to come into Afghanistan where he could fight us on his own terms. That strategy may be starting to work. As a bonus, Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld went into Iraq, which pleased bin Laden to no end. Now he can fight us on two fronts.
It seems that bin Laden wants us to continue to bleed ourselves in both Afghanistan and Iraq, continue to be a perfect terrorist recruitment poster, continue to be an excellent prod to get Arab countries to pour money into terrorist organizations.
What does “surrender the situation” mean? An army cannot surrender to a situation. We need to determine our own best policy options, not continue to let bin Laden dictate American policy.
March 25th, 2008 at 2:25 pmYup, it’s exactly like pardoning Nixon. One of the biggest mistakes in U.S. history.
Nixon not being pardoned wasn’t “exactly the right thing to do”, it was exactly the wrong thing to do. One of the primary reasons we have had a string of overall crappy and corrupt presidents and Congresses, is because those in government have felt like they could’ve (and successfully have) gotten away with so much illegality. Nixon’s pardon is one of the specific acts leading to the intensely corrupt political climate we have today.
These bastards would never have gotten away with nearly the amount of swindles, graft, spying and corruption had Nixon been thrown in jail. The political climate that currently exists would’ve had a much harder time coalescing had Nixon been made an example of. So sure, for incredibly corrupt career politicians like Dick Cheney (who is directly linked to the Nixon administration, no less), of COURSE pardoning Nixon was “exactly the right thing to do”…for them. That is precisely what MADE IT exactly the WRONG thing to do for the safety and well-being of We the People.
Double-speak abounds, folks. In their world up IS down. Black IS white. War IS peace. Corruption IS oversight. Secrecy IS transparency.
These sociopaths need to rot in jail for the rest of their lives, with cameras on their cells 24/7/365 that anyone can go online and view at any time. Deny them the right to privacy they so clearly despise. I see no problem with criminals who specifically commit crimes destroying the privacy rights of the citizenry being denied those self-same rights while imprisoned. They need to be held as an example to all future politicians. Corruption, secrecy, violation of the rights of We the People, and illegal acts of aggression WILL…NOT…BE…TOLERATED.
March 25th, 2008 at 2:25 pmCapt. all those items in 105 are purely speculative. We have absolutely no reliable way of knowing anything about OBL, AQ, or their intentions or opnions. We have garbage and propaganda from outlets of the MSM. Have you even once seen in the news where FBI/CIA/NSA confirmed the authenticity of one of those alleged OBL tapes? voiceprinting technology is nothing new, and it’s very accurate, yet I’ve never seen a confirmation on one of those recordings. I’d think that, were they confirmed, it would have been blasted all over the news.
Furthermore, I for one don’t think we should let crackpots overseas steer our car under any circumstances. We’ve known for a very long time how to defend ourselves and spy on others, so I really don’t worry that we will fall under the control of some imaginary Caliphate of the future.
There is no one to “surrender” to, and nothing to “retreat” from. There is never a real “fight” to be had with abstract concepts. That misunderstanding was created and is perpetuated by the cabal of vested Ideologues and Demagogues who started this whole bloody misadventure for no better reason than to make more money than they already had.
Let’s flip your script – when we “win”, who will surrender to us? What flag will be taken down and replaced with ours? What army will disband? With whom will we negotiate a Peace Treaty?
March 25th, 2008 at 2:31 pmCZ-1. You could be right about bin Laden.
What I mean about surrendering the situation is leaving Iraq before it can govern itself securely.
March 25th, 2008 at 2:32 pmBy pardoning Nixon, Ford made a huge mistake and the legacy of those years haunts us to this day.
Nixon should have been prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. It would have served as a warning to those who, like Nixon, feel that they are above the law. Pardoning Nixon basically neutered the impeachment process – and of course the GOP-led impeachment of Bill Clinton went further and killed it altogether.
We would be much better off today as a nation had Nixon been forced to pay for his criminal acts.
Try again, Dick.
March 25th, 2008 at 2:33 pm111- But when you say “govern itself securely” you really mean “govern itself the way we think it ought to”, and that’s where the “unrealistic” really comes into play.
It’s just double-talk. A flimsy means of rationalizing away a lot of wisdom on the issue and replacing it with happy-talk about “winning” and “freedom” and “honor”.
March 25th, 2008 at 2:40 pmtombaker. I agree with your points. I would only suggest that the mechanisms are in place.
The press is doing it’s job. If something is reportable, newsworthy, they will jump over themselves to break the story. That’s what they do.
If there is significant information that the Bush administration has abused it’s authority, we have impeachment.
It is possible that the situation isn’t as you believe. You should ask yourself, ‘why hasn’t the democrat congress impeached the president? ‘why hasn’t they been movement on extracting us from Iraq?’
It is possible that despite the amount of rhetoric, that there isn’t enough information to make either happen. That could change, but for now, it’s a belief that many here hold, that can’t be realized without more significant grounds.
March 25th, 2008 at 2:41 pmI think the Iraqis should govern how they want to. But, after we invaded it became our responsibility not to leave Iraq to all out civil war and genocide. If we can withdraw without that happening, and Iraqis can govern themselves (however they want), we should leave.
March 25th, 2008 at 2:43 pmYou can always hear the people who are willing to sacrifice somebody else’s life. they’re plenty loud and they talk all the time. Death before dishonor. This ground sanctified by blood. These men who died so gloriously. They shall not have died in vain. Our noble dead.
Dalton Trumbo, “Johnny Got His Gun”
Sounds like anyone we know? Bush/Cheney, Southern Idiot, Exlax, Daryll, Frankie, to name a few.
March 25th, 2008 at 2:45 pmThe hubris is unbelievable. I guess it comes from being able to get away with absolutely everything. What are we going to do about it – rebel? LOL
March 25th, 2008 at 3:03 pmthe “grounds” are sure as hell as significant as a cum-stained dress, and the weasel words of a man trying to save his ass from a sex scandal.
the fact is that the gop is still holding our government hostage, and the D’s will not stoop to their level to undo it no matter how much that pisses me off.
the press has been cowed into submission with the threat of being cut off altogether. the press is “owned” in every sense of the word, by those who profit most from gop policies.
there isn’t a “perfectly benign and well-intentioned” explanation for all this that has somehow escaped perception because it was oh-so subtly sophisticated and high-minded.
if i were to believe that, i might as well go ahead and believe there are leprechauns. hey, who knows, maybe there are, right Captain??
March 25th, 2008 at 3:05 pm“I think you cannot be blown off course by the fluctuations in the public opinion polls,”
March 25th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Do you really believe that? Their not willing to stop an unjust war by stooping? They wouldn’t stoop to save all the lives that have been lost in Iraq since they gain controll of congress over a year ago?
They would stoop. But, they won’t put themselves out politically, because the dirty secret is, that withdrawing the troops too soon, or defunding the war, may not be the cure all that some claim it to be. There are consequences that they deem are more costly than going back on a promise to either impeach or defund the war.
March 25th, 2008 at 3:20 pmtom.
do you really believe the press is ‘owned’? Don’t they routinely break stories that discredit the Bush administration. Abu Grahib, death tolls in Iraq, Generals that come out against the administration, the lack of evidence of WMD, etc? With friends like that…
The press isn’t owned. Sometimes I question why the press doesn’t run with a story that I think is important. In my estimation, the press could be biased. But, I always have to allot for the possibility, that the story I deem important, may be less than credible, or less than newsworthy.
March 25th, 2008 at 3:26 pmAgain, I think your assumptions are wrong. What if the way the Iraqis want to govern themselves is to conduct a civil war? That’s the way the United States wanted to govern itself in 1861. What if the Iraqis want a dictatorship? Some percentage of the Russian people want to go back to a dictatorship.
Meanwhile, we’ve already enabled a civil war in Iraq–it’s already happened. And we’ve assisted Turkey in their bombing and invasion of northern Iraq. And we’ve not been able to prevent terrorists from coming into Iraq and killing thousands of innocent Iraqis. With friends like us, Iraq doesn’t need anymore enemies.
March 25th, 2008 at 3:29 pm2 or more wrongs don’t make a right Captain, and it really is as simple as that.
These endless variations on the “ends justify the means” arguments are all wrong. Individuals, Governments, and Civilizations always fail when they operate that way.
Iraq is not a Crate-and-Barrel store. The fact that we broke it does not mean that we bought it.
We cannot camp out in the Middle East forever with the idea that eventually, all the bad guys will die or give up. A quick review of World History shows clearly that those plans never, ever succeed.
Why would any intelligent contemporary person believe that emulating the Roman Empire is a good idea?
Just like personal life – real change comes from within, not from without.
March 25th, 2008 at 3:33 pmCZ-1. It’s an outstanding point (what if they want civil war). It should be their right to ferret out there own government. Not trying to diminish your point (I concede that it is strong), how do you answer critics that chastise the U.S. for invading Iraq and then leave it a more profound genocide (if that does occur)? Is it okay to promise liberation, destroy the former government and then leave the people of Iraq with little alternative but civil war? We made the decision to have a civil war. Have the people of Iraq made a similar decision?
March 25th, 2008 at 3:38 pmas for the ownership and quality of today’s news media – i’m not going to waste a lot of time with indictments. suffice to say that Walter Cronkite thinks it derelict at best.
the “news” has been turned into a product that must generate acceptable levels of profit first, and disseminate valuable information second, but only if that doesn’t get in the way of mission #1, making money.
March 25th, 2008 at 3:42 pmtombaker. I’ve got to go do some other stuff, but I understand the points that you make. I don’t see the issue in black and white. We should leave Iraq at some point: today? 6 months from now? 10 years from now? I don’t know the answer. How much responsibility do we have to secure the people of Iraq? I think that’s also subjective. Will our continued presense make the situation more secure? Make it worse? Or will it just prolong an inevitable situation? I don’t know.
But, I’m also not confident that a withdrawl regardless of the current circumstance, (or current trends) is any more prudent than invading a country and anticipating a liberation parade and prompt adaptation of our form of democracy.
I’ll check back later, see ya.
March 25th, 2008 at 3:50 pmIt’s a pretty huge insult to say that the people of Iraq are incapable of managing it themselves, even if it has been made a much larger problem thanks to our unnecessary and destructive interference.
March 25th, 2008 at 3:55 pmYour question are improving. Answers:
** No, what the U.S. did is not okay, and we will have to live with that on our conscience forever. But we cannot make it better and we are only making it worse by staying longer in their country.
** We don’t know that civil war and/or genocide will occur. One thing I think is fairly certain is that the terrorists will not have a reason to enter Iraq and blow up innocent people. Another thing that seems clear is that there will be no Americans for insurgents to target, no American collaborators to target, no foreigners for insurgents to rally against. The Iraqis will only be dealing with their own countrymen.
** If violence continues or breaks out anew, it will be the sole responsibility of those Iraqis committing the violence. Americans will not be contributing to it, not be inciting it, not be the focus of it. Americans will not be killing innocent people as collateral damage, not be killing innocent people by stupid mistakes or confusion, not be killing innocent people in a fit of rage over the loss of a comrade.
We cannot build a castle in the sand and then think that we will hold back the ocean forever. If the Iraqis want democracy or any other form of government, then they have to reach and take it for themselves. The U.S. cannot force it onto them at the point of a gun.
March 25th, 2008 at 3:57 pm126 – will we do that with our infinitely unlimited mountain of money and soldiers, or will we be responsible to our descendants and hang on to a few dollars for firemen, police and post offices?
once again, you are cut short by that realism thing, huh?
what does 10 years at 12 billion a month add up to??
March 25th, 2008 at 4:09 pmPardoning Nixon wasn’t the WORST thing Ford did – Giving Cheney & Rumsfeld and their ilk prominent positions in his administration (increasing their political influence) was his biggest sin. I think Ford even expressed regret for what he had wrought, in that regard, before he died.
March 25th, 2008 at 4:09 pmDear Dirty Dick Cheney, Pardoning Nixon was exactly the wrong thing to do because it only emboldedned future generations to trash out the constitution and wreck our country. So I guess you are correct if you say that staying in Iraq is just like pardoning Nixon…i.e the wrong thing to do.
March 25th, 2008 at 7:00 pmPlease stop talking about the “war” in Iraq – it’s an illegal occupation!!
March 26th, 2008 at 4:37 amtombaker Says:
March 25th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
…the “news” has been turned into a product that must generate acceptable levels of profit first, and disseminate valuable information second, but only if that doesn’t get in the way of mission #1, making money.
Unfortunately making money #1 is riding high and #2 The only dissemination left is only lies to raise #1 higher. The media went by the wayside same as insurance. Lucky us who lived before and know the difference, news vs tabloid trash and healthcare vs profit at the expense of the patients.
March 26th, 2008 at 2:44 pmThere was serious consideration of replacing Washington as commanding general during the winter of 1777 (Valley Forge) because people were not satisfied with his performance. And today, sohbet
March 25th, 2009 at 4:59 pmBedava mp3 indir
cetI would argue that most approve of Truman’s decision to use the A-bomb (this is a decision that I believe will be considered more negatively as time goes on