EXCLUSIVE: McCain’s Foreign Affairs Speech Plagiarizes 1996 Address By Adm. Timothy Ziemer (UPDATED)
EXCLUSIVE: McCain’s Foreign Affairs Speech Plagiarizes 1996 Address By Adm. Timothy Ziemer (UPDATED)
CORRECTION: As a blog that strives to maintain credibility and transparency, we would like to explain our mistake. When we were alerted to the tip that Adm. Ziemer gave a similar speech in 1996, we searched LexisNexis and McCain’s campaign site for whether the senator used the disputed phrases before that time. We did not find anything. After we published the post, the McCain campaign contacted us and pointed to a speech given by the senator in 1995, which appears on McCain’s Senate site. As soon as we were alerted to the error, we rushed to publish a correction. Once again, we regret the error, and we apologize for it.
Yesterday, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) gave a foreign policy speech to the Los Angeles World Affairs Council. He stated:
I detest war. It might not be the worst thing to befall human beings, but it is wretched beyond all description. When nations seek to resolve their differences by force of arms, a million tragedies ensue. The lives of a nation’s finest patriots are sacrificed.
Innocent people suffer and die. Commerce is disrupted; economies are damaged; strategic interests shielded by years of patient statecraft are endangered as the exigencies of war and diplomacy conflict. Not the valor with which it is fought nor the nobility of the cause it serves, can glorify war. Whatever gains are secured, it is loss the veteran remembers most keenly.
Watch it:
These lines are not McCain’s own. As TP reader 5th Estate discovered, they were in fact taken largely from a 1996 speech by ret. Rear Adm. Timothy Ziemer. Below is a comparison of McCain’s address yesterday with Ziemer’s in 1996:
| Ziemer | McCain |
| War is awful and when nations seek to resolve their differences by fighting, a million tragedies ensue. [Link] | When nations seek to resolve their differences by force of arms, a million tragedies ensue. [Link] |
| War is wretched beyond description. [Link] | It might not be the worst thing to befall human beings, but it is wretched beyond all description. [Link] |
| Nothing, not the valor with which it is fought, nor the cause with which it serves can glorify war. [Link] | Not the valor with which it is fought nor the nobility of the cause it serves, can glorify war. [Link] |
Nowhere in yesterday’s speech does McCain give credit to Ziemer. Additionally, it’s not the first occasion that McCain has stolen Ziemer’s words, as 5th Estate notes. McCain also used these words on Aug. 20, 2007:
“We do share a secret, but it is not a romantic remembrance of war,” McCain said early in his speech. “War is awful. When nations seek to resolve their differences by force of arms, a million tragedies ensue. Nothing, not the valor with which it is fought nor the nobility of the cause it serves, can glorify war.“
It’s unclear whether Ziemer is tied to the McCain campaign, but a search of both his campaign and Senate websites turned up no references to the admiral. He does, however, have ties to the Bush administration. In June 2006, Bush appointed Ziemer to head his President’s Malaria Initiative. Ziemer was also honored with a spot in First Lady Laura Bush’s box at the President’s 2007 State of the Union address.
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Better be quiet - you’ll piss the old coot off.
March 27th, 2008 at 3:24 pmNow McCain has come down with “all Ziemer’s” disease. Geeze.
March 27th, 2008 at 3:24 pmA White House staffer resigned recently due to his pagerism. Might McJowls be forced to withdraw his presidental run?
Not a chance, free pass will be given.
March 27th, 2008 at 3:26 pm#2:
thanks for the laugh, as I head home.
March 27th, 2008 at 3:27 pmdidnt 5th Estate publish this in the comments yesterday?
March 27th, 2008 at 3:28 pmNever mind… should have read the post completely, huh?
March 27th, 2008 at 3:31 pmYeah, yeah, yeah… so St. McCain plagiarized his speech. big deal.
He’s a Maverick™!
March 27th, 2008 at 3:31 pmgroan….
March 27th, 2008 at 3:32 pmpuns are painful
Clinton donors warn Pelosi over superdelegates
Prominent backers demand retraction of comments that may help Obama
This article is worht the read. Apparently Hillary’s suporters sent a letter to Pelosi demanding that she retract her statements about superdelegates needing to vote for the candidate with the most pledged delegates. They feel this is an endorsement of Obama. There is a subtle threat to withhold financial support for the Congressional races in the letter.
Hijacking the presidency aint pretty.
March 27th, 2008 at 3:32 pmLOL
Apologies for my post. It’s been a few years since I have posted on TP. The process has changed I must say. For the better? I think not.
March 27th, 2008 at 3:33 pmOh I don’t know - he left out the “war is awful” part of Zeimer’s quote after all!
snark off
March 27th, 2008 at 3:34 pmSt. McSame:
I sense a big, fat BUT coming up…
March 27th, 2008 at 3:37 pmbelac Says:
March 27th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
didnt 5th Estate publish this in the comments yesterday?
Yeah - it’s mentioned in the 4th paragraph of the story
March 27th, 2008 at 3:39 pmObviously, McCain has no ideas of his own about anything. He admits to knowing next to nothing about matters economic. He apparently can’t speak for himself about war etc. And this guy or his handlers (and I suspect they are the ones running for the Presidency) he is serious about running for president?
March 27th, 2008 at 3:40 pmWhat a joke. This needs to be shouted from the house tops. Of course the sheeple will blindly vote for this empty suit no matter what he says. This is clear evidence that he lost his mind in Vietnam and never has recovered. His wife must desperately want to be first lady to allow him to put himself out there and be exposed as a fool.
O/T but I’m approaching McCain overdose levels.
Str8UpNoChaser Says:
March 27th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
That article was in one of my morning papers (I’m a news junkie, what can I say) and they covered it even better.
A quote:
“Sources said Pelosi was infuriated by the implied threat the donors would quit giving cash to the committee.”
http://www.nydailynews.com/ news/ politics/ 2008/ 03/ 27/ 2008-03-27_hillary_clintons_wealthy_pals_warn_nancy.html
March 27th, 2008 at 3:41 pmThat’s plagiaristic enough to get you expelled from any good school on Earth.
March 27th, 2008 at 3:42 pmHe’s such a maverick, he doesn’t need to follow any rules!
March 27th, 2008 at 3:44 pm#15 Mary:
Thanks for the link. Just when you the the SS Hillary can’t sink any lower….
March 27th, 2008 at 3:52 pmZiemer was also honored with a spot in First Lady Laura Bush’s box
I’m not so sure that should be termed an ‘honor’.
March 27th, 2008 at 3:52 pmI mean . . isn’t that closer to say . . some kind of penalty ?
OH CRAP, Now it’s McPlaegerism
March 27th, 2008 at 3:53 pmO/T:
U.S. employee killed in Baghdad’s Green Zone
LINK
I’M SICK AND TIRED OF BEING SICK AND TIRED.
March 27th, 2008 at 3:56 pm“Straight talk,” then; recycled talk, now.
McCain probably can’t remember where he left his car keys, so maybe no surprise he can’t remember who said what, and when.
And if imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, then plagiarism must be more sincerer.
March 27th, 2008 at 3:58 pmIf McCain really believed this (plagarized or not) he’d be in favor of pulling our troops out and ending this disaster…not staying in there for another 50, 100, 1000 years. As some of my forbears would have said, he speaks with “forked tongue.”
March 27th, 2008 at 3:58 pmUh oh. Time for someone to fire up the grill.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:02 pmAs much as anything else, presidential campaigns are won and lost by the media narratives that rightly or wrongly come to define a candidate. In the case of Repubican nominee John McCain, the seemingly unshakable narrative of the political “maverick” could not be further off the mark. At almost every turn, McCain in his eternal quest for the White House has reversed long-held positions, compromised core principles and swallowed his pride in order to curry favor with both the leading lights of the conservative movement and right-wing Republican primary voters. The untold story of campaign 2008 is simply that of John McCain’s transformation from maverick to prostitute.
For the details, see:
March 27th, 2008 at 4:05 pm“From Maverick to Prostitute: The Untold Story of John McCain.”
Ziemer was also honored with a spot in First Lady Laura Bush’s box???
Don’t even think I need to point out how funny this sounds.
Themancantspell has a new name twice a day now, what an idiot.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:07 pmWords are like disposable paper bags. People abuse them. Words have lost meaning.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:08 pmI think maybe words were more important before the invention of TV. When people couldn’t manipulate with facial expressions and inflection.
Since most of the people who have grown up since the Reagan years have plagiarized at one time or another, he’s found his “Youth Base”…
Seriously, how DEVOID of IDEAS to stoop to using PLAGIARISM in as amateur a “presidential campaign” as seen since Dole.
Let’s see how the “msm” PRESS handles this one, since they seem to give McSame a PASS quite a LOT…
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
March 27th, 2008 at 4:09 pm5th estate hit this yesterday. Kudos to 5th and to TP for acknowledging it as well as keeping the story alive. The republicans don’t realize the ugly format they laid out during the last presidential election.
Those who live in glass houses will have their houses smashed to the ground and their lawns trampled on. Or something like that.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:10 pmWell, c’mon guys, Grandpa can’t string words together by himself anymore.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:11 pmTake this:
Former Marine Corps Commandant Gen. Michael Hagee (2003-2006) placed 75th in his class, among 836 graduates at the Naval Academy in 1968.
Commander-in-Chief wannabe of the entire U.S. Military, Sen. John McCain, placed 894th in his class, among 899 at the Naval Academy in 1958.
What’s wrong with this picture?
March 27th, 2008 at 4:13 pmMcMaverick will throw his speech-writer under the wagon hes hitched himself to and bray with delight.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:14 pmWhat’s wrong with this picture? -=McWars=-
Its the GOP era of low expectations, they want it that way apparently.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:18 pmI notice that thetrollcantthink has fallen back on the tried-and-true troll strategery of “So what? A Democrat did something bad too!”
March 27th, 2008 at 4:18 pmMcCain can’t seem to string more than half a dozen words together on his own.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:23 pmWithout a speech writer, he’s a potpourri of piddle.
Listening to him give his speeches I hear the strain of trying to keep up with comprehension for what he himself is saying.
He doesn’t know, he’s simply uttering what has been thrust in front of him.
100 years McCain doesnt detest war, hes counting on it to get elected.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:23 pmSo, “Bomb-bomb-bomb, bomb-bomb Iran” McCain parrots words cribbed from a man he does not respect enough to cite; that does not bode well for his actually believing them. Furthermore, his position does not change before and after the current Iraq conflict (which he supported fervently), so he’s learned little from our current situation. So what we are left with is a guy who has actively encouraged our inflicting “a million tragedies” - something “wretched beyond all description” on the innocent people of Iraq and the US, yet stubbornly insists upon the necessity of such a course, absent all evidence, and acknowledges no error, contradiction, or moral qualm. All the while, he will dress himself up as a humanitarian and peacemaker. Disgusting!
Meanwhile, our media (using the public airwaves and a myriad of easements for cables and such) actively abet him in his deception.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:25 pmAll this means is that McBush has hired some very lazy speech writers. Because if you think that McBush is writing his own speeches, you need your head examined.
Hopefully people will start calling him on this, but I’m not holding my breath. That’s why I want the Democrats to wrap it up and start running advertisements that will introduce America to the real John McBush.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:26 pm“a potpourri of piddle”
Good one, Nevar!
March 27th, 2008 at 4:26 pmit’s just too funny Ralph, that these guys can watch a few hours of Fox, listen to Rush on the radio, then go about in public acting like they know something about anything.
as soon as the heat and pressure rise, they’re right back to the same old pussy-coward playground jabber and bullying they see their “role models” practicing.
i’ve come back around in my position on them, back to wishing for the opportunity to beat them into an ICU using one of sean hannity’s dismembered limbs.
hatriotic asswits.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:27 pmHmmmm. Let’s see. Little Johnny McSame:
March 27th, 2008 at 4:33 pm1. conflates factoids to make up his own reality
2. plagiarizes ideas when he has none of his own
3. fabricates facts when none exist
I guess that makes him “The Great Conflagiarcator”©. It’s his way of being Reaganesque.
This is silly, but it’s not the kind of ammunition we need to accumulate against this woolen neocon. I frankly find the whole “plagiarized speech” argument disingenuous anyway. Are we to cry foul whenever someone quotes the Declaration of Independence? John Winthrop? Lincoln? Roosevelt(either one)? Kennedy? King?
There’s no statute of limitations on compelling language and inspiring ideas. When the ideas are bankrupt, as McCain’s are, that’s where the problem appears.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:33 pmI would imagine that all the people who castigated Obama for plagiarism are now at least as horrified that McCain has done it, too?
In McCain’s case, at least, I imagine he has a speechwriter (as do many politicians). Since he has used the words of others on more than one occasion, I recommend the speechwriter find some original material. Recycling isn’t necessarily good for everything.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:35 pm…Awe shucks, just another senior moment…NOW back to Hillary!!
Much Love
March 27th, 2008 at 4:36 pmABC, NBC, CBS and FAUX
This means nothing, the so-called media will continue to give a free pass to ride on the straight talk express.
RIP
March 27th, 2008 at 4:38 pmSGT Stephen R. Sherman
C CO 1-5 In (STYRKER)
KIA 3 Feb 2005
Mosul, Iraq
47 - killing your shipmates while trying to show off and wrecking 5 jets makes a guy a hero? caving under torture and recording anti-american statements makes you a hero?
real heroes give their lives to save others. mccain gave others’ lives to save his own.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:42 pmThe Watcher is The Zero.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:43 pmThe Watcher Says:
March 27th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
McCian is a hero unlike you Leftwing Zeros!
Wow. A THIRD nom de plume for our illiterate troll today?!?
Mighty impressive.
Odd, though, that the established naming convention hasn’t been followed this time…
March 27th, 2008 at 4:44 pmToo bad you can’t even spell your heroes name correctly, MORON!
March 27th, 2008 at 4:44 pmAwww, hey, give Grampaw McDrool a break!! He’s RECYCLING!!!!
It’s good for the environment.
*eyeroll*
March 27th, 2008 at 4:45 pmElection 2008 sock puppets have been placed by Mr. P, director of the troll staff.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:46 pmThat’s your third handle today, Mr. P. It’s real obvious, too.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:48 pmHey it got it’s heroes name right at least this time!
March 27th, 2008 at 4:48 pmI didn’t know Marx was a Muslim?
ralph the wonder llama Says:
March 27th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
The Watcher Says:
March 27th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
McCian is a hero unlike you Leftwing Zeros!
Wow. A THIRD nom de plume for our illiterate troll today?!?
Mighty impressive.
Odd, though, that the established naming convention hasn’t been followed this time…
Different drool, er, troll. I have mercifully blocked out its previous login names but I recognize the hysterical anti-Muslim bigotry.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:48 pmNow we can add “plagiarizer” to his growing list of descriptive adjectives! Let’s see…..Liar, Fraud, Fascist, Lobbist Lover……Crazy, Torture monger, War Monger, Cheat….and the list goes on.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:49 pmMcCian is a hero unlike you Leftwing Zeros!
Why do we hear nothing from McCain’s service buddies?
March 27th, 2008 at 4:49 pmflag the watcher and move on. it’s not worth engaging.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:49 pmretarded wuss. cowardly bootlicker. nancy-boy.
that’s about as far as i can go without trotting out the real profane gems….
too bad you’re a snivelling coward - otherwise i’d give you a taste in real life.
traitor.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:50 pmI say let these IDIOTS post. It proves the point that if you only absorb fixed noise and rush limpballs your IQ drops.;)
March 27th, 2008 at 4:51 pmThe people should demand a psychiatric exam for McCrazy to really see how far his senile dementia has gone. Clearly, without the teleprompter, he can’t complete a simple thought on his own and orate it in a simple sentence. He’s a buffoon, not unlike the Chimp.
Let’s add “Chimpy Redux” to his list of nicknames?
Dos Chimpanzies??
March 27th, 2008 at 4:51 pmWhat happened to his promise to tell the people all about how his invasive melanoma has progressed, too? Let’s fess it all up McCrazy. Experts have suggested that he doesn’t have a four year term in his life expectancy and it’s time the people are told the truth about it.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:52 pmIs it me or is this current crop of recycled trolls really lame? I have absolutely zero need to confront them because the things they say either doesn’t make sense or is simply ludicrous. Let’s just ignore them. Maybe then the RNC will send us some reasonably intelligent trolls to play with.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:52 pmHey Watcher! Would that be the families of those he killed due to his negligence in the Vietnam war? Surely you jest??
March 27th, 2008 at 4:52 pmScared to discover the truth of your Muslim allies? - The Botcher
The truth is that they’re really mad at us for invading their sovereign land. Given the women and children stuck prostituting themselves, that’s understandable.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:53 pmKerry’s shipmates stood beside him when the Swiftboaters were bombarding the airwaves with lies about his service. But we’ve heard nothing from his Navy classmates, or those who served with him. Is this another story the media are ignoring?
March 27th, 2008 at 4:53 pmOr the ones who were left to die while Pappy Imperialista Egomaniac Admiral McCain airlifted his pathetic little offspring to safety? Maybe those, eh??
March 27th, 2008 at 4:53 pmthe crotcher.
what did you think about the attacks on Max Cleland and John Kerry, traitor-nazi-pussy????
March 27th, 2008 at 4:55 pmWatcher, Bush went to Iraq to free the oppressed muslims, remember?
McCian is a hero unlike you Leftwing Zeros! -=Watcher=-
Cian?
In Irish mythology, Cian (/k?i??n/ “ancient, distant”), son of Dian Cecht of the Tuatha Dé Danann, is best known as the father of Lug by the Fomorian princess Ethniu.[1]
He was born with a caul on his head, and was turned into a pig as a boy when struck by a druid’s wand. Thereafter he could transform into a pig at will. In other versions he could transform into a dog. -Wikipedia
Thanks for the laugh Watcher [Peeping P?]
March 27th, 2008 at 4:55 pmI think they are outsourcing troll work to Six Toe, Alabama. In-bred morons work for Government cheese.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:55 pmbarfly: Check out his “real” military record for a pathetic glimpse of what this fraud is really all about. Due to his negligent decision, the crew of his boat all died just like they did when Admiral McCain used the wrong missiles on another boat….like father/like son.
Then again, we can go back to his violations of the Military Code of Ethics which his father had scrubbed from his college record, too.
There’s soooooo much dirty baggage in this man’s closet that it makes anything in Hillary’s look like packing for a weekend trip!
March 27th, 2008 at 4:56 pmBilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
March 27th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
Is it me or is this current crop of recycled trolls really lame? I have absolutely zero need to confront them because the things they say either doesn’t make sense or is simply ludicrous. Let’s just ignore them. Maybe then the RNC will send us some reasonably intelligent trolls to play with.
I’m sure this is The Joker, who is not only lame but borderline psychotic. There is absolutely no point trying to engage this troll in a conversation.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:56 pmBilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
March 27th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
Is it me or is this current crop of recycled trolls really lame? I have absolutely zero need to confront them because the things they say either doesn’t make sense or is simply ludicrous.
Totally. It’s like they tried to troll with the best ideas they could come up with, those trolls got shot down in flames, so they decided, “what the hell? Let’s just clog up their threads with gibberish!”
March 27th, 2008 at 4:56 pmWatcher: As a matter of fact, I did serve. How about you? You sound like an ignorant, light in the loafers, pussy to me.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:57 pmOk, start flagging “The Watcher” of child porn.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:57 pmhey - if dummy there wants to jump in, i’ve got a softball bat and nothing better to do than f him up all afternoon long.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:58 pmLet’s get back to McInsane’s military record - because it’s rife with information which will be used to swiftboat him at the appropriate time. The swiftboating of Johnny McSame will make Kerry’s swiftboating look like a kayak trip.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:59 pmgummitch Says:
March 27th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
I’m sure this is The Joker, who is not only lame but borderline psychotic. There is absolutely no point trying to engage this troll in a conversation.
gumm, I think you’ve got it. I forgot about that bozo.
March 27th, 2008 at 4:59 pmcome on up to seattle, pussy, and i’ll give you a mess of what you deserve too.
you’d get your ass kicked in a gay bar -
-for lesbians!!
March 27th, 2008 at 4:59 pmI love when people call others “commies”. It is so hilariously old school
March 27th, 2008 at 5:00 pmcerberus,
He served and fought, did you? -=Watcher=-
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/
March 27th, 2008 at 5:00 pmCleveland and Kerry got what they deserve.
The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame? The Browns? Drew Carrey? What did Clevland get that it so richly deserved?
March 27th, 2008 at 5:00 pmI also served proudly, but this DOOFUS doesn’t care. He’s a watcher not a participant. It’s easier do let others pull the load and just be a MORON!
March 27th, 2008 at 5:00 pmGo eff yourself, Watcher. And we’ll all become watchers to see your technique. Now we’ll watch you disappear, moron.
March 27th, 2008 at 5:01 pmmccain is a crazy old limpdicked FAKE, who kisses lobbyist ass for a living, and has a drug-addict wife whose daddy made his pathetic political career possible.
he ought to be locked up next door to Duke Cunningham, who i’m sure is also one of The Crotchers big “heroes”.
March 27th, 2008 at 5:02 pmCleveland?? Ahahahaha! We do have some well informed trolls out today - phew!
March 27th, 2008 at 5:02 pmyou’re a big fag Crotcher, and everybody knows.
March 27th, 2008 at 5:02 pmActually Watcher, McCain was against the swift boating of Kerry.
March 27th, 2008 at 5:03 pmAug 6, 2004 | “Dishonest and dishonorable” is how John McCain described the attack ad now appearing on television in several swing states, courtesy of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. Dishonest because the men who appear in the ad make false claims about John Kerry’s wartime conduct and decorations. Dishonorable because these men have waited three decades to publicize their slurs, with partisan motives, during a presidential campaign.
Mulsim lover?
March 27th, 2008 at 5:03 pmSure I think we’d all like one but it is spelled Molson
I’m not talking about supporting the Islamic takeover of America and Europe.
That an American could ever entertain this silly notion, thinking a country with America’s history, and weaponry would ever bow to a regime not of their own choosing, would make the Founding Fathers puke their collective guts out.
March 27th, 2008 at 5:03 pmTom: This ludicrous troll grew up in the hood? Well maybe that explains the fact that he’s been living in a bubble? With a hood over his head his entire childhood, no doubt.
March 27th, 2008 at 5:03 pmi’m enjoying the opportunity to vent some spleen, and ruin the day of someone who really, really, deserves it.
Apologies to all the sensible clear-headed folks.
March 27th, 2008 at 5:04 pmbarfly: We don’t have to have anyone support a takeover of this country. Hell, Bush has already given it away - lock, stock and barrel. Nothing left right now but a shambles and a tanking economy.
March 27th, 2008 at 5:04 pmHey Watcher, why is Bush spending billions of your money to free the muslims from that oppressive dictator in Iraq?
Its Love!!
March 27th, 2008 at 5:04 pmZiemer was also honored with a spot in First Lady Laura Bush’s box
Beavis: Woah!
Butthead: HeHe!
March 27th, 2008 at 5:05 pmWe’ve been up for grabs to the highest bidder for 7 years. Like BL said - he doesn’t have to lift a finger. Bush is such a fool that he will destroy the country without anyone having to do a single thing. Pretty prophetic, I’d say.
March 27th, 2008 at 5:06 pmUpdate noted. Do they have the same speechwriter? If so, the speechwriter needs to keep his files straight.
March 27th, 2008 at 5:06 pmreally spices up the thread, doesn’t it??
things have been pretty tame, pretty quiet the last week or so
nice to have some industrial-grade conflict for a change.
March 27th, 2008 at 5:06 pmAnyone got the over/under on when The Watcher’s posts disappear?
I say by 5:18.
March 27th, 2008 at 5:06 pmWho the hell says “hood” anymore? I suppose no matter what neighborhood it was, his “peps” scarred his ass up just for being such a dope
March 27th, 2008 at 5:07 pmIf the words (whoever may have said them first) make a good argument against going to war in Iraq.
And what planet is Bush residing on? The rosy pictures of Iraq progress stated by Bush today at Wright-Patterson AFB ( another “friendly audience” were completely void of reality on the ground. Chuck Hagel, Rep. said today that Bush was arrogant and incompetent, and he would not endorse any of the candidates. Meaning he does not find McCain capable.
March 27th, 2008 at 5:08 pmHey- is the Watcher really Michael Alan Weiner, better known by his pseudonym Michael Savage?
March 27th, 2008 at 5:08 pmI’m glad we had watcher here to entertain us.
March 27th, 2008 at 5:08 pmBeavis: You said “anus”!
Butthead: anus,hehe!
Ralph- I’ll go 5:22…
March 27th, 2008 at 5:10 pmCerberus:
Nothing left right now but a shambles and a tanking economy.
And a bunch of poor, angry folk who will band together, to survive in hard times.
We have all decried the fact that this invasion was accomplished with so little upset to average Americans, and with so little a sense of shared sacrifice. That is about to change, as the true cost emerges into public view. Perhaps, in a perverse way, this will be a good thing, much as the Depression helped set the stage for the selfless sacrifices of WW2.
March 27th, 2008 at 5:16 pmWhoosh. I think Belac was closest.
March 27th, 2008 at 5:17 pmtombaker Says:
March 27th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
come on up to seattle, pussy, and i’ll give you a mess of what you deserve too.
you’d get your ass kicked in a gay bar -
-for lesbians!!
I’ll join you.
I’ll take the short ride up from Fort Lewis, and we’ll wear this punk (the Watcher, where do you watch anyway, could it be the stall at the MN airport) out. Specialist dont engage this punk.
I get so tired of having to argue with people who have NEVER served and seen their Soldiers killed/maimed in front of them, defend some politician who could give less than 2 damns about you or your family. Give it a rest.
RIP
March 27th, 2008 at 5:21 pmSGT Stephen R. Sherman
C CO 1-5 IN (STRYKER)
KIA 3 Feb 2005
Mosul,Iraq
I think it’s Mr. P or CT because they’re big on the progressives love Muslims crap too. Funny since Mr. P is too fat to go to Iraq and CT fakes being deaf so he doesn’t have to serve that they are questioning other’s service.
March 27th, 2008 at 5:22 pmOk, then did Ziemer plagiarize McCain?
March 27th, 2008 at 5:22 pmwell shoot! he’s gone already. just as well - i always end up feeling bad that i started getting ugly with my comments anyway. (but i’ll do it again in a heartbeat ;) )
March 27th, 2008 at 5:25 pmAs noted I brought this to TP’s attention. I spent hours yesterday trying to find the original quote with the only tool I had available–Google. I did an advamced search on:
“Not the valor with which it is fought” ,
and got 148 hits ( yesterday) . I looked at about 50 of the sites linked, on news sites and blogs and websites and all those I saw attributed the words to McCain and all that I saw were later than Adm. Ziemer’s use of the words.
I thought it very possible that Zeimer was the original source—BUT not abosulutely. After all the phrases in question are IMHO examples of great writing and eloquence, and I was pretty certain not McCain’s style. Nor however did the words seem likely to have come from Ziemer, in my estimation. But as far as I could tell Ziemer used them first.
TP took-up my observations and spent much of today verifying my research and confirming my suspicions.
Now the plagiarizm charge appears to have been reversed. The link provided in the update did not appear to show up in my specific Google search. I didn’t notice any link to McCain’s website in the returns I got from Google–they all appeared to be general blog posts and reiterations of the words relating to the latest Mar 29 2007 speech.
Now if you advance search the phrase, there are 371 links ( I just tried it). I guess I though checking 50 out of a hundred possible source constituted due diligence. Apparently not. I didn’t present my original research as irrefutable fact, but rather a high probaability that deserved further investigation.
Nonetheless, I think it fair I too apoligize for having instigated this report, given it’s results.
The larger issue of plagiarism still remains, but in this instance it appears McCain is the victim of it, and the victim of, not so much a rush to judgement on my part, but on an amount of research I thought was pretty substantial, but which turned out to be insufficient.
So I aplogize once again for that.
March 27th, 2008 at 5:29 pmhahahahah - righty fag/bootlickers
March 27th, 2008 at 5:33 pmTHanks, 5th Estate, for your research and your class.
March 27th, 2008 at 5:33 pmgummitch Says:
March 27th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
Whoosh. I think Belac was closest.
Damn.
March 27th, 2008 at 5:34 pmI second that ralph. Both 5th and TP are to be praised for their research and their admissions.
I still like the “All Ziemers” comment.
March 27th, 2008 at 5:37 pmUPDATE: It appears that Ziemer’s speech may have been plagiarized from McCain.
- - Ok, so now we basically have circle jerks.
March 27th, 2008 at 5:44 pmQuestions, for both 5th Estate, and TP:
Why didn’t you ask the McCain campaign before coming forward with the allegation? Was that too hard? Perhaps in the rush to get the scoop, you neglected the only resource that could have kept you from looking foolish, and unprepared?
March 27th, 2008 at 5:46 pmI’m not ragging on the anonymous 5th, as much as on the very visible TP. This is a rookie, first-year journalism mistake. When BillO gets ahold of it, he’ll have a field day.
March 27th, 2008 at 5:54 pmAh, flagging “The Watcher of Child Porn” got that scum booted, sweet, what an ass that one was. Sounded like that one who used to post, “The Joker”.
March 27th, 2008 at 5:55 pmWas the reason TP didn’t first consult the McCain campaign, because you thought McCain would try instead to get ahead of the story, by handing it off to one of the beltway lapdogs?
If so, it was a tough choice to make, but now you’ve got egg on your faces - so it looks from here to have been the wrong choice.
March 27th, 2008 at 6:01 pmWhat, pray tell, is worse?
March 27th, 2008 at 6:07 pmIt was only a matter of time, TP, in your rabid obsession with McCain; you would stumble blindly down the up escalator.
If you could balance things out with reporting on the foibles and falsehoods of all the candidates, maybe you would see a little clearer.
As far as who uttered what first, I think it is scarier that McCain spewed forth such bilious nonsense such a long time ago.
March 27th, 2008 at 6:07 pmWhen BillO gets ahold of it, he’ll have a field day.
- - But the difference is the next time Bill O admits to be in error will be his first time.
March 27th, 2008 at 6:09 pmIt would appear that my characterization of McPlaegerism was incorrect.
Perpahs a McRegurgitation would be more appropriate.
March 27th, 2008 at 6:09 pmIt must be some sort of troll holiday. I would have thought they’d be swarming this thread like may-flies, after the admitted error.
March 27th, 2008 at 6:13 pmMaybe it was the McCain speech about burning so many bridges in the world, they got spooked….
March 27th, 2008 at 6:17 pmspring break over at Special Ed U.
March 27th, 2008 at 6:18 pmThis sort of stuff gives cowboys a bad name. I found McCain using those phrases in a USNA speech in 1991 - and it took about 2 minutes with Google.
Come on - do a little work before blowing off your mouth.
No fan of McCain, by the way.
March 27th, 2008 at 6:27 pmSorry - cowboys can’t type. That was in 2001, not 1991.
March 27th, 2008 at 6:30 pmCome on - do a little work before blowing off your mouth.
There you go, cowboy. Words to live by. Even if you do have to eat crow and take your own advice.
BTW, if your citation was from 2001, it followed the supposed first use of these phrases that are at issue in this tread.
March 27th, 2008 at 7:12 pmTo all…
I just tried Google search on the EXACT phrase
“When nations seek to resolve their differences by force of arms”
Gogle delivers 150 results. NOT ONE OF THEM points to McCain’s Senate site. Therein in lies the problem. In my original search McCain;s Senate site was likewise never flagged. It didn’t occur to me that Google wouldn;t find EVERY instance if the phrase that is available on the web. It didn’t occur to me to go to McCain’s web site and search all the speeches there–it has basic topic/date search tool of its own.
TP told me that they would investigate and substantiate my claims before commiting to a post. They told me they had contacted McCain’s people to get a comment/response before the post went up. Frankly I was rather surprised that my suspicions and research had apparently become ‘fact.’
And actually the first I saw of it was with the update and the 1995 link–which I hadn’t missed in my original research, I-or rather Google-simply wasn’t able to find it.
So there’s the cautionary tale.
Why Google STILL can’t deliver the link to the 1995 speech McCain senate page I don’t know. My suspicions were substantiated by the evidence I COULD find, but when I sent the tip I didn’t argue that I had an ireefutable case, just hwat seemd to be a good one.
I don’t like the McCains politics, but this plagiarism charge shouldn’t be used against him–beccaue, unless there’s some other evidence out there, it’s not, in fact true.
March 27th, 2008 at 8:00 pm“As a blog that strives to maintain credibility and transparency, we would like to explain our mistake”
Admirable….Now if in addition to correcting this incorrect report re: Sen. McCain ThinkProgress would correct its March 17 error in which it confused Ayman al-Zawahiri (to whom VP Cheney referred in his interview) and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi the blog’s credibility would be enhanced.
Nearly two weeks after TP’s embarrassing error was pointed out, it has yet to issue a correction, thereby compounding its egregious error.
March 27th, 2008 at 8:33 pm“My friends,….it was just a ‘another senior moment’…my friends.”
March 27th, 2008 at 9:36 pmSo McCaint says “I detest war.” Other than that being a joke, it sounds a lot like it was stolen from FDR. No, FDR said I hate war. OK, there’s a difference.
March 27th, 2008 at 9:52 pmso late…but barfly to answer your question–why no phone call to McCain?
On my part I sent my research as a post sumbissionsometime after midnight yesterday, so that was too late to call McCain.
HAd it been at a more reasonable hour I wouldn’t have called him anyway on the perhaps false assumption that I wouldn’t get anywhere with them, being just a regular schmo.
TP took it up this morning. They have the contacts–I have none. TP called the campaign. I guess they waited and then chose to run the story. Maybe McCain;s people had a hard time finding the 1995 speech too (I NEVER found it of course).
so there you go. Lessons to learn in all this.
March 28th, 2008 at 12:54 amUPDATE: As a blog that strives to maintain credibility and transparency….
I take it this suggestion also implies you’ll no longer be using IPS as a source for (fabricated anti-US) stories.
March 28th, 2008 at 5:42 am…probably should wait longer than 3 whole stories later on the same day to post a blatant lie.
March 28th, 2008 at 5:54 amWho said Swiftboating veterans can’t be a bipartisan activity ?
March 28th, 2008 at 6:19 amMcwar himeself IS a Plagiarism. He will just be a repeat of bush the idjit, ergo plagiarism. McCain is a douchbag.
March 28th, 2008 at 7:56 amMy question is, where’s the media on this one? Oh, my bad, the LOVE McCain. He’s such a maverick that he can get away with using other’s words as his own. Once again the liberal media has sided with a Republican who lets them kiss his ass.
March 28th, 2008 at 9:44 amUPDATE
DAN RATHER GIVES THIS TWO THUMBS UP!!!
March 28th, 2008 at 9:58 amThis is a retraction? Looks like a petulant, adolescent attempt to try to reinforce the same, sloppy, unresearched pseudo-journalistic screech we’ve come to expect from you.
Why didn’t you just say, “we really wish the hated McCain stole words…..so pretend that he did anyway”
March 28th, 2008 at 9:58 amHehehe… poor little libbies… can’t do anything right. Oh well I needed a good laugh… thanks! Now wipe the eggs off your faces and let’s get back to watching ol’ Hill and Obama slice and dice each other to pieces. Hey!… Someone get me some popcorn!
March 28th, 2008 at 10:05 amDrudge shouldn’t even link to this site, nobody ever heard of it before, and we know why now. Should be called nothinkprogress. Just becasue your liberal idiot candidates make up stories, lie and plagiarize on a regular basis doesn’t mean all people stoop to that level.
But the fact is, there are so many stupid young liberals in this country, we will either be stuck with a liar or an American hating liar for a president. Don’t particularly care for McCain but at least he won’t lie to our faces and sell us out to terrorists, etc, etc.
March 28th, 2008 at 10:22 am“As a blog that strives to maintain credibility and transparency….”
The only thing they have maintain is their “transparency”, we can all see right through their credibility.
March 28th, 2008 at 10:24 amOf course, what this Update “to maintain credibility and transparency” shows is Amanda’s vigorous efforts to uncover the true did not include an attempt to first ask McCain’s people whether they could explain this “corrupt” act, before posting. You see, Amanda is not a journalist, even by the tortured definition of that word in the era of blogs. Her approach to research seems to be, “if it’s on the internet, it must be true.” So, use a couple of search engines, type in a few “Find” commands, and your job is done. The joys of sneak attacks, from Pearl Harbor to 9/11 are well known. But for those of us who would rather not waste our time on junk journalism, the best response is to just go to your bookmarks and hit “Delete.”
March 28th, 2008 at 10:25 amI wonder if the sites that originally linked to this post will also link to the “retraction” as well? Despite the updates, the disinformation is still posted here as if it were truth, and that only serves to spread more lies.
This site has lost all credibility. All a detractor has to do is bring up this gaff the next time ThinkProgress posts anything controversial.
I hope I never taught you.
March 28th, 2008 at 10:32 amTo simplify the apology for those on the fourm: “We, at Think Progress, totally screwed up and can never be trusted again because we got caught in a lie. We let our complete and utter hatred of anyone who is not a far left, socialist/Communist loon, cloud what little reason that we had in the first place. It is unfortunate that our blind idealogical rage and willingness to fabricate things was exposed here. We hope that the next time that we rush to slander a conservative without checking our facts, that we can get away with it. We also know that the truth doesn’t matter in the least to the vast majority of impotent, “victimized” lemmings that read and post on our site, so McCain if you are waiting for apologies from all the deranged morons that automaticalloy assumed that this story was true, don’t hold your breath, old man.” I hope that clarifies this “apology” for everyone.
March 28th, 2008 at 11:07 amThinkProgress……you’re virtual 15 minutes are up…..you can now go back to your regularly scheduled pandering to the left.
March 28th, 2008 at 11:10 amI am impressed, though, by your instant posting of replies. That does put you in a greater trust with readers than the larger sites that “review” (and decide to post/not post).
March 28th, 2008 at 11:11 amQuite honestly, that is the lamest excuse I’ve ever heard.
“Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense.” If you relied solely on what was available on Google for a research project in any serious college (or even high school) course, you would have deserved and received nothing better than a D.
I don’t know what’s more appauling: your laziness before the fact preventing you from checking one more source (which itself was another stupid website), or your attempt to avoid taking responsibility by saying “I didn’t know Google couldn’t find everything”.
March 28th, 2008 at 11:14 amSo he didn’t plagiarize, but he’s stale and inconsistent.
That and he PROMISES more wars, which is “wretched beyond all description. When nations seek to resolve their differences by force of arms, a million tragedies ensue.” This is better than anti-terrorism without war and occupation?
He said there will be more wars. He didn’t say there might be more wars, he said will… so even if we have no cause, we’ll have to start them evidently.
“There’s going to be other wars.” - McCain
March 28th, 2008 at 11:16 amI’d rather a politician be honest and realize that there are evil people among us. I mean, if somebody said what McCain did after World War I, would you say he is a war-monger? Nevermind that history would eventually vindicate them.
March 28th, 2008 at 11:21 amThe facts are this - Thinkprogress.org is a shill for the Democratic Party. You tried to do a hit job under the pretense of professional journalism and when you got caught you tried to paint yourselves victims.
http://theoutlander.blogstream.com
March 28th, 2008 at 11:23 amsinge_101: So McCain’s statement that there will be other wars becomes a “promise” from McCain that HE WILL START THEM himself? Did you actually THINK before you posted that? That kind of “logic” takes a unique mind, to say the least. This is exactly the kind of delusional stuff that we have come to expect from the lunatic left fringe, who seem to be entirely motivated by their feelings (mostly impotent rage, it seems)to the exclusion of all rationale thought.
March 28th, 2008 at 11:23 am“Ziemer was also honored with a spot in First Lady Laura Bush’s box at the President’s 2007 State of the Union address.” LoL
March 28th, 2008 at 11:29 amHow vast is the gulf between “We regret the error” and “We failed to do due diligence and apologize for our insult to Sen McCain”
Seems like I’m also missing the apologies/regrets of about the first 100 posters….
March 28th, 2008 at 11:37 amNo matter what the reason it is just an excuse, before you throw stones, take a look at your beautiful glass house.
March 28th, 2008 at 11:42 amWait so your source for stories now is GOOGLE?
Get some intellectual honesty already. The country is worth more than your partisan agenda!
Senator McCain has a long and proud history of service to this country, both in the military and the Senate. He deserves your respect. Yet you will launch a reckless character assassination on him because he’s not liberal enough for you. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
March 28th, 2008 at 11:46 amIt was rather funny to watch this site lead a group of liberals around by the nose. A partial list: Badmoodman, Castelcomerkid, tombaker, RUCerious, Tired of being lied to, Arn Gunnutes, SteveSOD, Nevar, Peter C
Bilbo Hussein Baggins, misshusseinmolly.
It would seem to me that the above group would do better to focus on issues instead of stewing in a pot of bile and hatred.
Special note to Tired of being lied to: Perhaps you may want to ditch this site in that it just caught lying about Senator McCain.
I expect that the “Google defense” is destined to be a classic.
March 28th, 2008 at 11:48 ambut, but, but , I googled it and it didn’t show up!!
It’s not my fault.
March 28th, 2008 at 11:48 am“It’s a tough war we’re in. It’s not going to be over right away. There’s going to be other wars.”
The topic was not war in general. There will be war, but countries in this age generally avoid war.
If there are going to be wars that we “have to” get involved with, that did not happen with the USSR, China, etc., so it’s something we have to be very careful about. Plus we fail to act in Rwanda, Sudan, etc. where help really is needed. Forget about democracy, they needed immediate defense from genocide and atrocities, even extinction.
In the end, the greater military should be used to defend our nation and the Constitution, not to overextend ourselves. It also should be accountable and not use these corrupt contractors.
That does include counter-terrorism, but not at the cost of mass carnage “over there” and making us vulnerable economically.
Saddam and those in power were atrocious, but that can be said for dozens of dictators and we can’t fix all of these countries with our armed forces.
March 28th, 2008 at 11:52 am