Krugman On Bush-McCain Response To Housing Crisis: ‘It’s Like Katrina’ To Say ‘Let People Suffer’
Krugman On Bush-McCain Response To Housing Crisis: ‘It’s Like Katrina’ To Say ‘Let People Suffer’
Last week, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) spoke to the Orange County Hispanic Small Business Roundtable in California on solving the nation’s economic woes. During that speech, he stated that he does not believe the federal government should assist struggling homeowners:
I have always been committed to the principle that it is not the duty of government to bail out and reward those who act irresponsibly, whether they are big banks or small borrowers.
McCain instead advocated a laissez faire approach, saying that he would “convene a meeting of the nation’s accounting professionals” and “top mortgage lenders” and try to persuade them to voluntarily help Americans.
Today on ABC This Week, former Labor secretary Robert Reich and New York Times columnist Paul Krugman compared McCain’s approach to Herbert Hoover. “John McCain makes Herbert Hoover look like an activist,” said Reich. Krugman then added that ignoring the housing crisis is just as bad as the administration’s response after Hurricane Katrina:
It would be a little different if the administration said housing prices are going up. If they hadn’t said there’s no bubble. It’s a national disaster in effect. It’s like Katrina. To say, oh, let people suffer, saying let those people who made the mistake of staying in New Orleans suffer.
Watch it:
On March 16, Sen. Charles Schumer (D-NY) also said, “The President’s hands-off attitude is reminiscent of Herbert Hoover in 1929 and 1930.”
Transcript:
REICH: This is not something that’s just a run-of-the-mill economic or finance crisis. I think therefore, it is very important, and appropriate for the government to do something. I mean, John McCain makes Herbert Hoover look like an activist.
WILL: He was.
KRUGMAN: Yeah, when I listened to McCain give that speech, I immediately thought of Herbert Hoover’s treasury secretary. Liquidate farmers, you can’t do this. This is a financial crisis. You’ve got to do something, and that does include helping homeowners who were sucked in a little different if Alan Greenspan said you should all take out adjustable rate mortgages.
It would be a little different if the administration said housing prices are going up. If they hadn’t said there’s no bubble. It’s a national disaster in effect. It’s like Katrina. To say, oh, let people suffer, saying let those people who made the mistake of staying in New Orleans suffer.
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What part of by the people, for the people and of the people does he not understand. Corporations and banks are not people, yet they have been personified, strangely, thru constitutional amendments. By this personification logic, if corporations and banks have been personified McCain is saying we should not bail out corporations/banks/investment banks/mortgage lenders.
Catch 22 Mr McCain.
March 30th, 2008 at 1:34 pmMcHoover, heh, I can has McHoover?
March 30th, 2008 at 1:35 pmwasn’t this also the topic when george will stated that “fair” was a
four-letter “f-word”, that he had to teach his kids to never use…
jeesh!
March 30th, 2008 at 1:53 pmBadmoodman Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
- - Umm, say what?
March 30th, 2008 at 1:53 pmHow long before wingnuts start claiming that Hoover was actually a liberal?
March 30th, 2008 at 2:06 pmIf you liked Hoover, you’ll love McCain…
March 30th, 2008 at 2:14 pmHow hard is he going to lean on “Top Mortgage Lender’s” when They have contributed over 1.2 million to his campaign? NOT! So far those lenders haven’t help at all except to add more fees and delay some of the foreclosures. Putting these people in more debt.
Give me a break, the only way they are going to help is if they are given an incentive to help. They didn’t help any homeowners after Katrina. Angelina Jolie, Brad Pitt and others have done a great job with rebuilding homes that are safer for that region. In fact, they donated over 8 million dollars to their foundation to help.
March 30th, 2008 at 2:15 pmThere is another difference between McCain and Hoover. McCain would have a 100 year situation to pay for that would keep him from helping his citizens, even if he had a change of heart.
March 30th, 2008 at 2:21 pmhe would “convene a meeting of the nation’s accounting professionals”
March 30th, 2008 at 2:27 pmWhile there having this big meeting they might try looking at our nation’s budget.
You have the transcript wrong. Paul said “It’s a natural disaster,” not a “national” disaster.
This changes the meaning of his statement drastically. It makes him WRONG.
There is nothing natural about big corporations handing out loans at rates and with terms they knew the people could not live with and then begging for a bailout from the taxpayers. It is a crime and crime is not ‘natural.’
March 30th, 2008 at 2:28 pmnot so sure, randy, but i can undestand how you might think that…
March 30th, 2008 at 2:38 pmbut i don’t hear a “ur” sound so much as an accent, his speech pattern…
i think he did say “national disaster… just like katrina” … another national disaster…
Why is it that the “top mortgage lenders” and accounting professionals should be called on to help fix things? Both of those groups got us into the mess along with alan greenspan sanctifying w’s budget cuts that were going to bring in more money to the treasury. We need to help the people losing their houses, not the bank officials and institutional officers with their big bonuses and golden parachutes.
We could say to the banks and other institutions affected that the government will help them out only if everyone in company to get aid who got more than $100k in salries and bonuses in 2006 and 2007 returned that that excess compensation.
March 30th, 2008 at 2:39 pmIMHO, comparing Bush to Hoover is an insult… to Hoover.
According to the Wikipedia, Hoover tried “to combat the Depression with volunteer efforts and government action, none of which produced economic recovery during his term.” That’s a damn sight more the Bush will do.
Bush will actively oppose any solutions that have a shot at working while slavishly pushing all of his repeatedly, tried-and-failed non-solutions, e.g. permanent tax cuts for the rich.
Bush would let the entire country go down the tubes rather than abandon his brain-dead ideology — the same ideology that is the primary cause of our current problems, i.e. no regulation of the financial industry.
On the bright side, Bush’s presidency will rehabilitate Hoover in that, Hoover will no longer be classified as America’s worst president: Bush will own that title outright.
March 30th, 2008 at 2:51 pmThis is the typical Republican elite answer to problems. You have to remember that under their economic and political theory, people are to be misled, lied to and used. The current economic situation is an excellent example:
1. We started with a strong economy. However, the tech bubble burst and confidence in the market (as well as billions) disappeared with the accounting scandals at Enron, Tyco and other firms. Now a large part of each crash in value hailed from small government and deregulation policies dating back to Regan.
2. The president needed to shore up the market since he would be blamed for the recession (right or wrong). He decided to depend on the American consumer to pull us throught the tough time while enacting tax cuts that heavily favored the top 1% of the population. Consumers responded by spending based upon the promise of better days to come. Yes, they were suckers to the Republican line.
3. The econcomy sitll was not responding. Consumers were out of money. Bush came up with the ownership society by which the common person would become the minow attempting to negotiate against large corporate sharks. (Think HSA’s, high deductible health insurance and - social security) House owning was just one small part of the bait. The president bragged about rising home ownership while millions got conned into loans they could not afford. But home values rose greatly giving these individuals an exaggerated value of wealth. Just what Bush needed to cover his own economic leadership incompetence.
4. The economy still failed to respond. Greenspan got more consumers involved by encouraging ARM mortgages. The consumers were suckered into taking the increased value out of their homes to sustain lifestyles. Remember, average rages were rising (actually significant gains for the .05% while the average person stagnated or lost ground against inflation and greater cost shifting by employers on health.)
5. State governments woke up (kinda appropriate as an anology for Spitzer) and started to crack down on the subprime business. Ah, but Bush used OCC to derail any effort to control these unconsciable, deceptive, and at time fraudulent loans.
When will the mass of people wake up to rebel against the Republicans. Probably never,
March 30th, 2008 at 2:51 pmI understand governments role in common defense. I understand infrastructure - roads, airports, bridges.
But, honestly, at what point did it become governments responsibility to rectify the bad judgement or poor choices of it’s citizens.
Obviously, the money for the bailout comes from somewhere. The money to bailout those who agreed to irresponsible loans will be paid by those that presumably made more responsible borrowing decisions.
Although, bailing those people out in the short run may seem compassionate, are we in jeopardy of de-emphasizing responsibility in the future.
The next time I get the opportunity to pen a no interest loan for more than I can afford, should I go ahead and do it, knowing that I can get you to pay for it, if I default?
What’s next? Paying divorce settlements?
March 30th, 2008 at 3:01 pmRepublicans McCain and Bush believe it is the duty of the federal government to help the Republican ruling class corporations become even wealthier and more powerful through no-bid contracts and more tax cuts.
March 30th, 2008 at 3:02 pmMacCaine is only interested in WAR PROFETEERING.
March 30th, 2008 at 3:09 pmYa know, our marines look after each other and make sure each and every one of their brothers get to safety and that is considered to be noble.
The responses by republican politicians towards our citizens in the Katrian disaster and the sub-prime scandal have been anything but noble.
For them to look into the camera as if it were looking into the eyes of Americans and blame the citizens for catastropies beyond their control is as un-American as leaving our wounded behind to save their own hides…..
March 30th, 2008 at 3:11 pmbackup
March 30th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Two words: Bear Sterns
March 30th, 2008 at 3:11 pmOne word: Chrysler
March 30th, 2008 at 3:14 pmMore blame is on the lending instituitions, they had the knowledge and regulations which they ignored. Used to be incomes had to be verified, a downpayment made. Spitzer was trying to investigate the lending practices across the nation when he was caught using a prostitute’s services. Strange coincidence ? And how is it we bailed out Carlyle Group were they doing home mortgages too ?
March 30th, 2008 at 3:16 pmZooey. If I agreed with you that the government shouldn’t be bailing out corporations, would you agree with me that the government shouldn’t be bailing out irresponsible homeowners?
March 30th, 2008 at 3:18 pmTen years ago when we bought, we had to do everything but donate blood to get a small mortgage. Five years ago we did everything by phone, same mortgage company and about same downpayment but no one physically met us. We were surprised to say the least.
March 30th, 2008 at 3:18 pmbackup
couple of things wrong with your post Captain. first of all they are bailing out the big banks…..
Second, who/what is America? the banks and companies or the citizens and if it is representative government then we get to decide what governments role is, not a handful of greedy bankers and businesspeople.
Most civilized societies look out for thier citizens without any of your quibbling about who’s responsibility it is. It is our collective responsibility.
How can we live in a country where Roy Clarke can afford a hair transplant yet millions of our citizens children cannot afford basic medical needs? This disproportionate distribution of the basic right to live is not acceptable in a democratic society.
Your government should also protect you against perceived dangers and should do all that they can do as our representatives to keep us from harm. That includes building the necessary coastal protections and maintaining them and it means helping the helpless when our protections fail.
It also means protecting citizens from crooks who run lending institutions. Even bush is calling for regulations to prevent the kind of corruption that has just occurred in the sub-prime loan scandal.
March 30th, 2008 at 3:19 pmbackup - it has come out that lending co were using “steering” which means targeting certain populations for their sloppy mortgages. And now, the lending co’s. get the bailout and keep the forclosures. How moral is that?
March 30th, 2008 at 3:20 pmbackup Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Zooey. If I agreed with you that the government shouldn’t be bailing out corporations, would you agree with me that the government shouldn’t be bailing out irresponsible homeowners?
This isn’t an either/or situation, Captain. A fair number of those people you call “irresponsible” were preyed upon by unscrupulous lenders, enabled by government deregulation. It’s the goverment’s responsibility to fix the clusterf_ck they caused.
I wouldn’t have the government bailing out corporations under any circumstances.
March 30th, 2008 at 3:22 pmIt was Republicans’ weakening of the regulations and oversight that created this mess. The told us (rightly or wrongly) big business would “do the right thing” without being told to do so.
Instead of bringing back the regulations and oversight, Repubs are telling us to have faith that big business will do the right thing.
Might as well tell us to put our faith in magic ponies…
March 30th, 2008 at 3:22 pmbackup Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
I understand governments role in common defense. I understand infrastructure - roads, airports, bridges.
But, honestly, at what point did it become governments responsibility to rectify the bad judgement or poor choices of it’s citizens.
I think somewhere around 1930, when the “bad judgement and poor choices of citizens” helped usher in a Great Depression. I think a lot of people decided, hey, this sucks — what can we do to keep this from happening again? and so such institutions as Social Security and the NDIC were born.
You see, Cap’n, many people feel that economic power concentrated in the hands of few will tend to corrupt those few, who will seek to increase their share of national wealth through means that, while perfectly acceptable to libertarians and hard-core conservatives, strike many as unhealthy and unfair. And history has shown that, when left unregulated, American business tends to party hardy for a short burst, followed by a widespread hangover when the system breaks down due to bubbles bursting, trust evaporating and impoverishment of the working classes.
March 30th, 2008 at 3:24 pmMany things this government does need correcting, starting with lobbyists swaying our Representatives instead of the good of the people. I would like to know what manner of repayment was agreed to if any ?
March 30th, 2008 at 3:28 pmStephen Schwarzman, co-founder of Blackstone Group, a private equity firm, made $4.78 BILLION in compensation in 2007. You heard that right: $4.78 BILLION!!! Poor guy, maybe he needs a bailout.
March 30th, 2008 at 3:31 pmThe housing bubble has been crumbling over a year and just now the administration is thinking what to do. However Carlyle Group and Bear Stearns cry mommie and days later a check is delivered. Wow !
March 30th, 2008 at 3:32 pmFred. You compare someone who takes a loan they can’t repay to a marine in combat. I don’t get it, but okay.
I think if you are going to borrow money from someone, you have an obligation to pay them back.
How about this comparision. The irresponsible homeowner is more like someone who drinks and drives. Who chose to drive when they shouldn’t have.
Now, would it be more noble to let the driver suffer a loss of license and a heavy fine that might dissuade them from drinking and driving in the future; or would you suggest that we compassionately pay their fine without recourse, so they can get back on the road without having to consider their own poor judgement?
This kind of compassion in the shortrun has implications for the future that many don’t seem to consider.
March 30th, 2008 at 3:32 pmI feel so bad for people who have to buy their “hummers” I suppose that is what befalls those guys who lack charm
March 30th, 2008 at 3:33 pmBill didn’t have to pay for his hummer. Well, he “paid”—but you know what I mean.
March 30th, 2008 at 3:35 pmGoverment exists to do things people can’t do by themselves, such as protect them from the unscrupulous practices of greedy corporations.
Are you implying that you’d do just fine with out the regulation of the food you eat, the air you breathe, the water you drink?
“Oh, it’s his own fault, he shouldn’t have been eating that contaminated meat…”
March 30th, 2008 at 3:37 pmbackup are you aware that the lenders in some instances did not even have documentation of borrowers income ? Are you aware that hedge funds were created with these shakey loans and sold and resold on Wall Street ? So who let the regulations down and who made money before the pyramid scheme fell ? Where is the documentation that loans were explained to new borrowers, that interest rates could triple.
March 30th, 2008 at 3:40 pmbackup please answer is it right to let the banks and lenders retain the forclosures to re sell AND enjoy the bailout of Fed money?
March 30th, 2008 at 3:42 pmWho do you think you are, Bear Sterns? Get used to it, the Bushies don’t give a damn about you.
March 30th, 2008 at 3:43 pmAlso, Deputies in Atlanta who do the evictions said they are evicting those in million dollar homes, so it is not just the naive first time borrower that was duped or maybe the million borrower used the system.
March 30th, 2008 at 3:44 pmbackup at 3:32 pm
[…] I think if you are going to borrow money from someone, you have an obligation to pay them back.
the borrowers knew of their obligation… they didn’t know that the interest rate on their adjustable rate loans that they were pressured and scammed into
would rise beyond their means and expectations…
…
dbadass - you know what they say:
BIG TRUCK - LITTLE DICK.
March 30th, 2008 at 3:47 pm.
backup
You lose me when you want to blame someone who has suffered financial loss at the hands of people who basically lied or deceived them into taking the loan.
The lenders are the ones who did unscrupulous things, the borrowers were lied to and loans that had been illegal before the de-regulation were now offered to borrowers as letitmate contracts….which we know that they were not.
You are defending crooks……
March 30th, 2008 at 3:51 pmit is not the duty of government to bail out and reward those who act irresponsibly, whether they are big banks or small borrowers.
Uh… and Bear Stearns didn’t act irresponsibly by putting other people’s money in highly risky hedge funds? Didn’t Bear Stearns help fuel the subprime bubble? Wasn’t that, well, irresponsible?
Yet, the Fed went out of their way to broker a bail out that involved JPMorgan; the same bail out McCain has endorsed.
But it’s only the struggling homeowners who get McCain’s “touh love” approach, and his “personal responsibility” babble.
[McCain] would “convene a meeting of the nation’s accounting professionals” and “top mortgage lenders” and try to persuade them to voluntarily help Americans.
It’s this “voluntary help” from the “top mortgage lenders” that has brought about the current crisis, that has so many Americans struggling to hold on to their homes. It’s these “accounting professionals” who created the schemes behind Bears’ now bankrupt hedge funds.
What makes McCain think these people would know how to fix the mess they’ve created? It’s obvious they don’t, or Bear would not be where they are now.
McCain’s solution to the problem is to put the fox in charge of the hen house. Yeah, that’s some solution.
Thanks, but no thanks, Mr. McCain. Please take your “solution” and sell it to someone who has had some of your kool-aid.
March 30th, 2008 at 3:51 pmwintermd Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
The irresponsible homeowner is more like someone who drinks
you owe me
you owe me
March 30th, 2008 at 3:52 pm—
The human species is ill designed for a solitary existence. Hence the need for sociality and group cooperation. It was this cooperative investment in the group which ensured our survival. We are happy to help.
One solution, how much of the loan has been paid ? If it was being paid and on time, how about renegotiation of the loan to a livable interest rate. I would like to know why an ARM loan is even legal.
March 30th, 2008 at 3:53 pmFirst of all, thanks for not calling me a troll. I appreciate it. (sometimes, it’s the little things).
Zooey. I agree that lenders have at least as much (probably more) responsibility for the bad loans. But, the borrowers do share responsibility. I believe you are right that the government has a responsibility to ensure freedom from predatory lending. People that were misinformed should get some kind of relief. But investors and speculators should not. And if there’s no evidence that the homeowner was deceived, they should be responsible for their loan. That’s what foreclosure is for.
Ralph. I believe that government does have a role to play in peoples lives. That amount of involvement constantly changes (maybe as a pendulum). As you may feel that government is not doing enough (i.e. wealth gaps), I worry the government may do to much.
I’m not sure if the U.S. became successful by exploiting the virgin (and abundant) resources that is now America, or if its success is due to a relatively free economic market system. Or possibly a combination of those (and other) factors.
If it is the incentives of a free market that increase productivity and promote a strong economy, I’m concerned that too much governmental manipulation to reduce risks and ‘level the playing field’ may have the unintended consequence of weakening productivity and impeding economic growth.
March 30th, 2008 at 3:58 pmFlag wintermd. He’s only here to clog the thread with shit.
March 30th, 2008 at 4:00 pmbackup:
I think you forgot to add that the lender was the one who shoved the drunk homeowner into the car and convinced him that he it was okay to drive.
March 30th, 2008 at 4:00 pm#44 - there will always be those that use the system….but there were “steered” populations as well who really didn’t get all the information for one reason or another. There are mortgage brokers being jailed right now for falsifying documentation to move a loan on. Again, renegotiate the good loans, those trying to pay need consideration.
March 30th, 2008 at 4:00 pmSo, you agree that Bear Sterns and Carlyle Group should be bailed out but not the good homeowner?
wintermd Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
I would like to know why an ARM loan is even legal.
I have had 4 ARM’s, over the last 30 years or so. They are great, save me money when I need it and my next loan will be a ARM.
—-
Was that the start up money which bought you that POS 1990 Cabriolet?
March 30th, 2008 at 4:02 pmbackup
March 30th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
There is no such thing as the free market. There needs to be regulation to protect the consumer — that requires government.
Corporations LOVE government when it comes to saving their asses, but hate government when it comes to covering the consumer’s ass.
Any government involvement should protect the PEOPLE, not business.
March 30th, 2008 at 4:05 pmwintermd Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
Hay…lend me some money. I have a boat, 4 cars, and need it to buy a Hummer.
Please……..
Not too far from the truth: “Larry Ellison, ranked 12th on the Forbes 500 list with a net worth of $25 billion, has bagged a $3 million tax break after arguing that his flamboyant Japanese-style estate in Woodside is functionally obsolete.”
March 30th, 2008 at 4:08 pmhttp://www.sfgate.com/ cgi-bin/ article.cgi?f=/ c/ a/ 2008/ 03/ 27/ MNUAVQUK2.DTL
You are the only one here who suggests that the borrowers are going to get any help…..they are not.
You imply on the other hand that if we take care of the lowliest of our citizens that we will fail as a capitalist society.
I think we can afford to make sure all of our citizens basic needs are met. From that point on it is a competition for top of the pile if you wish.
I am tired of hearing that working class people have to be oppressed and not helped….no min wage, no unions, no social secturity, no unemployment, etc. or else the whole thing will come tumbling down….bullsh!t.
I will not consider us a successful capitalist society if some of us are doing great and some are doing without basics.
There is something sick about a society where Roy Clarke can afford a hair transplant but we have 50 million plus of Americans without even a shred of health care availabe. This constitutes failure.
March 30th, 2008 at 4:11 pmMy point is why are we bailing out lending instituitions anyway? Or could it be whoever contributes to the campaign gets first dibs at the tax payer money trough.
March 30th, 2008 at 4:11 pmFred. Have you ever heard the saying, ‘if it’s too good to be true…’
Not everyone that signed for a loan was lied too. There are a lot of lenders that made loans that they shouldn’t have. But, I would suggest to you that well over 95% of the people that are now having trouble making their payments, opted for an adjustable loan or interest only loan knowing that their payments could increase. They took the risk, to either get into a larger house that they couldn’t afford or simply wanted to save a few hundred dollars every month, so they could buy other things.
Fred. They knew. They took the risk and it back fired. That’s how life is. These homeowners aren’t going to have to live under a bridge. They may have to foreclose. They may have to declare bankrupcy. Those are appropriate vehicles for people that fail. They take what they have and move to an apartment. I’ve lived in apartments, haven’t you?
I’ve always opted for a fixed interest rate mortgage. (Although, I could have saved hundreds/thousands of dollars by risking an adjustable rate) It means opting for a less expensive house that, I am more likely to afford.
If you eliminate risk from the equation, what will compel me to be responsible the next time I relocate? Doesn’t the system require a level of responsibility to function?
The lenders should be allowed to fail. But, those homeowners that agreed to irresponible loans (that weren’t decieved) also should be allowed to fail.
Additionally, by overlooking the irresponsible, you penalize those would be first time homeowners that could afford a home, if the foreclosure process would be allowed to run its course.
March 30th, 2008 at 4:18 pmThe mortgages with zero down and 10 years interest only, what kind of plan is that? And big amounts over $450,000. That is insane or just for flipping. My concern is the person who put something down, made his payments on time and now five years later is losing his home. That is just wrong.
March 30th, 2008 at 4:20 pmBackup direct me to your proof that 95% borrowers knew what they were doing. Having friends in mortgage and real estate I know for a fact that things were done illegally.
March 30th, 2008 at 4:22 pmBut why are you just for punishing one group and not the other?
backup Says:
Fred. Have you ever heard the saying, ‘if it’s too good to be true
You sound like the kirby vacuum sales people when people try to get out of the unscroupulous contracts that they were coerced into signing…….
Many of the people who got scammed on the home loans were first time home buyers and this whole push for these unscrupulous loans stems from the bush administrations wish to tout a rise in home ownership as evidence that they knew what the hell they were doing…..
Bottom line is that none of these people will see any help and yet Bear Stearns will. That is what I am upset about…..I guess you would consider the notion of justice to just be nieve…….
March 30th, 2008 at 4:25 pmFred.
I see your point. I sincerely will consider evidence of people that are doing without the basics in America.
I live under the assumption that although we have an incredible wealth gap in America - that our poor are having basic needs met. I know first hand that our poor are fairing much better than the poor of many other countries. That leans me towards believeing in a ‘rising tide lifts all boats’ philosophy.
But, I could be wrong. If anyone has credible evidence of Americans lacking the basics, I will read and consider it.
March 30th, 2008 at 4:25 pmbackup Says:
But, I could be wrong. If anyone has credible evidence of Americans lacking the basics, I will read and consider it.
I know you will laugh but I don’t care…..rent Sicko
March 30th, 2008 at 4:27 pmYa know, I’ve been pretty civil with you Captain but this statement fly’s in the face of reality so stongly as to be an insult.
March 30th, 2008 at 4:29 pmDoes she have a POS 1990 Cabriolet also?
March 30th, 2008 at 4:32 pmtexaslady. I think that the lenders should be allowed to fail as well as irresponsible borrowers.
I feel that failure in life isn’t a bad thing. If you’re allowed to fail, it could provide the impedious to improve and eventually succeed.
Imagine if your parents never took off the training wheels. If every entrance exam was correctable to 100%. Every prototype was put into production.
Prudence is a good thing. If you eliminate the consequences for making a poor choice, there will be no reason to attempt to make a good one.
Continually trying to eliminate any pain in life is a very admirable pursuit, if you consider it in the short run. Over a longer horizon, you’ve not only eliminated the pain, but also whatever growth would have come from it.
March 30th, 2008 at 4:35 pmNewsweek 3/26/08 - America is 28th in infant mortality right there with 3 other 3rd world countries.
March 30th, 2008 at 4:37 pmEducate yourself how many children go hungry at night and have no clean clothes to be able to go to school. Yes, some is parental disregard but some is due to people living on minimum wage and struggeling.
The adage of the fish stinking from the head down is true here, people see our leaders cheating, stealing and follow along on the EIC, and Welfare. Our society is crumbling from lack of accountability.
And what of the truly weak and damaged in our society……the ones that are not going to grow but they are still alive and we care about them…..do we beat them with sticks until they grow or die? You have very bad karma my friend.
March 30th, 2008 at 4:38 pmbackup and wintermd are middle-class white males who have never been turned away because of their color or sex, so they will never understand the truth of this racist, sexist economy, and they will never care. they have been the recipients of institutional affirmative action and whitey welfare for their whole lives, and have developed a blindness to the reality of bigotry and class warfare in this country. it’s like talking to a wall, only walls can be rebuilt. these two are just lost causes.
March 30th, 2008 at 4:41 pmFred. You have been civil. Thank you. But, I have been civil, too.
One day I hope that you will realize that I really believe differently from you. I respect you. I just don’t see the world the way you see it. But, I want to give you an opportunity to change my mind. If you do, I will be better for it.
I could pull up the stats about how many televisions, cars, and appliances that those considered poor in America have on average. But, I’m sure you’ve already seen it.
I can be wrong. But, currently, I’m not so sure that there are many Americans doing without the basics. I feel that there could be some debate about whether health care is a basic. And whether emergency care counts.
But, in terms of food and shelter. I live under the impression that our poor has that.
March 30th, 2008 at 4:42 pmtexaslady. I’ll check it out. Thank you.
March 30th, 2008 at 4:44 pmBackup - We need a balance to the haves and have nots and right now America is way out of balance. Has anyone else tried to find something that says Made in America lately? People with no jobs will need welfare and healthcare. It isn’t always a situation of not trying to better oneself. Some and it crosses all incomes are constantly cheating the system and usually they are the ones decrying the poor for not pulling themselves up by their bootstraps.
March 30th, 2008 at 4:45 pmbackup makes the standard wingnut error of measuring success by how many appliances someone has. how shallow can you get?
March 30th, 2008 at 4:46 pmis it a generational thing? or just a greed thing?
when did they stop teaching about the robber barons, the resulting depression, the democratic programs that then put people to work, building the infrastructure and manufacure base, that then transformed into producing the needed war supplies - while the whole country sacrificed for that effort - and more programs that allowed returning vets to attend college and get business loans that further built up the backbone of this country known as the “middle class”… that is all but crushed and debilitated out of existance? …
you know, your parents, or grandparents…
is it a generational thing? or just greed?
March 30th, 2008 at 4:46 pmkaty, it is not “just” greed, it is cataclysmic greed, hatred for your fellow citizens, a very real shortage of human compassion and understanding. these fat pigs are the original royalists, and they have a mental illness that has them thinking that they are better than us. It’s why revolutions happen and their heads end up on pikes, because they are short-circuited; they are missing something that makes the rest of us humane.
March 30th, 2008 at 4:51 pmInflating the economy into a recession to save highly leveraged predatory practices hardly seems like the answer.
Support the free market..let the bad apples fall from the tree.
March 30th, 2008 at 4:51 pmI could pull up the stats about how many televisions, cars, and appliances that those considered poor in America have on average. But, I’m sure you’ve already seen it.
And most of it was bought second-hand, from pawnshops, and AmVets stores, or on high-interest credit. This only proves that our consumer economy programs us to desire such things, nothing else.
I live under the impression that our poor has that.
Try walking at night through the high-crime ares of your city, and check under the bridge overpasses, and in the sewers, and then get back to us.
March 30th, 2008 at 4:53 pmThey knew they were creating an artificial fiat bubble.
Allowing banks to become involved in investment banking is primarily what caused the depression of the thirties. The alphabet soup of asset backed paper is basically fraud as it was falsely given AAA rating.
March 30th, 2008 at 4:56 pmhttp://www.pbs.org/ wgbh/ pages/ frontline/ shows/ wallstreet/ weill/ demise.html
March 30th, 2008 at 4:58 pmFollowing the Great Crash of 1929, one of every five banks in America fails. Many people, especially politicians, see market speculation engaged in by banks during the 1920s as a cause of the crash.
On Monday Treasury Secretary Paulson will propose handing this mess off to the Federal Reserve. I will be interested in hearing the details of his plan but this looks to place an awful lot of power in the agency. Who, for instance, will provide oversight? Lack of oversight is one of the root causes for the mess we face today. Too many Michael Brown’s were given jobs by Bush with orders to back off on enforcement of current regulations. I will be looking for teeth in any proposal set forth. Paulson’s background is not reassuring in that regard.
March 30th, 2008 at 4:59 pmBush allowed the housing bubble to support the theory of a good economy while shipping jobs out of the country. Well all bubbles sooner or later break. We are in debt and the Repubs cry “taxes will raise” if a Dem gets in power. Doesn’t matter who gets in, money has to come from somewhere to put back into programs bush has sucked dry. Like FDA, surely everyone wants that program.
March 30th, 2008 at 5:00 pmKaty - interesting thing,one school is teaching 5th graders what things cost and how to balance a checkbook. I thought parents are suppose to do that, however thank goodness somebody is teaching our kids.
March 30th, 2008 at 5:02 pmfreedom. The issue was ‘are some in America doing without the basics’. How do we measure or what do we consider the basics?
What’s the basics for you? What should the government be responsible to ensure that you have?
March 30th, 2008 at 5:03 pmWhat we should be teaching our children is how fractionalised banking works and not to rely on credit.
March 30th, 2008 at 5:04 pmI guess we will have to start calling you moose. A moose thinks if it can’t see you that you can’t see it so in it’s mind it can hide behind a small tree…..it can’t see you.
Just because you don’t see the poverty and death doesn’t mean it is not happening. You do know that as far back as reagun that the republicans closed our mental health centers around the country and “mainstreamed” our mentally ill population onto the streets where they live or wind up in prison.
People living under bridges and in cardboard boxes are not getting their basic needs met.
1% unemployment under JFK without including the military tells me that everyone wants the same things. You just won’t admit that the things within easy reach for you are impossible for some to obtain.
March 30th, 2008 at 5:05 pmWhat should the government be responsible to ensure that you have? -=Backup=-
The goverment gave the Fed the responsibility to stabilise prices. Debasing, inflation, of the dollar does not stabilize prices.
March 30th, 2008 at 5:06 pmMany lower income families do not think about long term results, they are used to not knowing from week to week what income they will have. So, a new flat screen is in the here and now. Enjoy today for who knows if we will even be alive tomorrow. Unfortunate but very true.
March 30th, 2008 at 5:06 pmThis follows along with some cultures feeling having children is a sense of pride whether you can afford them or not. Education that there is a tomorrow, a better tomorrow would help.
wintermd
March 30th, 2008 at 5:07 pmWas it something I said?
backup comeniently likes to ignore the welfare for the rich and the corporations that republicans routinely supply. It isn’t about basics, it’s about preventing the working class from having anything more than the basics by stealing from them.
March 30th, 2008 at 5:11 pmtexaslady. I read some info relating to the American infant mortality you referenced.
I get the impression, that although our infant mortality rates are significantly better (5 per 1000) than developing nations (40’s and 50’s per 1000) they are worse than most industrialized nations (Japan at 1.8 per 1000).
In some other measure regarding infant healthcare (that I couldn’t discern) we were tied for worst with Britain (among the 33 industrialized countries).
Considering that information, I would concede that we could make some gains in healthcare for infants and childbirth (especially among African Americans / 9 per 1000)
Society is dynamic. I don’t believe that there is one right to run it. Only an evolution of how we interact.
I’m open to the idea of a basic level of healthcare for all our citizens.
March 30th, 2008 at 5:14 pmBackup - Our government should ensure that ALL schools in ALL neighborhoods have quality in teaching, tools for learning. It isn’ being done now.
Our governemnt needs to regulate interest on Student Loans to college, isn’t being done, interest fluctuates. We need more Pell Grants for vocational schooling.
Our government needs to ensure that the GI Bill is updated so our military has the amount of tuition it promised when recruiting. McCain would not sign on to that Bill…again Newsweek 3/24/08 last page..Anna Quinlan
March 30th, 2008 at 5:15 pmMany good hardworking people just don’t know how so many are having to scrape to feed their kids right now.
Backup - there are many issues wrong with our society now but we can fix some if enough people want to. Education truly is the key to make more people contributors to a better society. However, I believe dumbing down a society is a means to an end for those who want power.
March 30th, 2008 at 5:21 pmTo all west coast TP readers: PBS is now running Frontline’s complete “Bush’s War” series.
March 30th, 2008 at 5:23 pmAnother obvious comparison to Bush & McCain: “The people have no bread” - “Then let them eat cake” same thing as “let people suffer”
March 30th, 2008 at 5:23 pmThese 2 guys have no– absolutely NO- connection with ordinary people.
texaslady. I believe you have helped moderate my position on public healthcare. Maybe it’s time to ensure a basic level (not just emergency room care, but preventative) of healthcare. Thank you.
I’m still open to the idea that many may be living without other ‘basics’, but I’m still not convinced.
If there were people living under bridges, starving to death, unclothed, etc. Why isn’t it being reported? Why aren’t there links?
I offer a sincere suggestion. If TP could generate credible threads of the plight of those living without the basics, it might generate some discussion about what the ‘basics’ are or what they should be. And maybe it could change the minds of some who are skeptical of the current level of U.S. poverty.
March 30th, 2008 at 5:30 pm92 - Freedom Lover - You did hit the nail on the head, even Warren Buffet got a subsidy for building a call center but put the center away from where the lower income people could get to it and then the original call center closed its doors. Bass is another one that takes government handouts to build. Or how about the horse farms, it goes on an on. The rich will find every handout possible but hate when the lower income get time at the trough as well. And when these companies lose, the tax payer pays the bill.
March 30th, 2008 at 5:35 pmtexaslady.
I’ve got to split, but I am curious about one thing.
If you see the need for quality schools, how do you feel about parents, who are economically stuck in underperforming schools, being able to use publically provided vouchers for them to use to send their kids to better performing schools. Vouchers used as a means to foster performance improvements through competition between schools.
Not a trick question, just interested in what you think.
I’ll check back in later for any response. It’s been a wonderful discussion. Thank you.
March 30th, 2008 at 5:38 pmBackup - Two great books by David Cay Johnston
March 30th, 2008 at 5:39 pmPerfectly Legal and Free Lunch…if you are intereted in eye opening and mind opening.
sorry mean’t to say interested.
March 30th, 2008 at 5:41 pmtexaslady Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
Backup - there are many issues wrong with our society now but we can fix some if enough people want to. Education truly is the key to make more people contributors to a better society. However, I believe dumbing down a society is a means to an end for those who want power.
That’s for sure ; especially when it sure as shit doesn’t get any dumber than our own president …………..
March 30th, 2008 at 5:42 pmVouchers used as a means to foster performance improvements through competition between schools.
Not a trick question, just interested in what you think.
I’ll check back in later for any response. It’s been a wonderful discussion. Thank you.
Vouchers are a lie for those already struggling. they are just another free ride for the well-off.
March 30th, 2008 at 5:42 pmI assume you think you are immune from poverty as a result of illness because you have a good health insurance policy.
And what of those that don’t have insurance? How can you expect people with 25K/year income to pay 15K/year for decent health insurance?
March 30th, 2008 at 5:42 pmbackup Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
texaslady. I believe you have helped moderate my position on public healthcare. Maybe it’s time to ensure a basic level (not just emergency room care, but preventative) of healthcare. Thank you.
I’m still open to the idea that many may be living without other ‘basics’, but I’m still not convinced.
If there were people living under bridges, starving to death, unclothed, etc. Why isn’t it being reported? Why aren’t there links?
I offer a sincere suggestion. If TP could generate credible threads of the plight of those living without the basics, it might generate some discussion about what the ‘basics’ are or what they should be. And maybe it could change the minds of some who are skeptical of the current level of U.S. poverty.
Who is this jackass , that he needs to be “convinced” ?
Warren Buffet’s kid ?
If he’s shown , he’s going to start doling out wads of cash ?
Gimme’ a break ; where does this chump live ?
Some hovel in the middle of East ButtPlug , Alabama ?
He’s never seen a ghetto or been anywhere near a major city ?
What an arrogant , condescending turd…………
March 30th, 2008 at 5:45 pmwintermd Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Vouchers are a lie for those already struggling. they are just another free ride for the well-off.
yea, just ask the kids in DC. They were polled, and they all want vouchers.
Since when do kids start making decisions on anything ?
You going to determine the drinking or the driving age by asking kids what age those should be , too ?
March 30th, 2008 at 5:48 pmOne last note before I leave too. If what you say is true then how can we deny anyone the basics? If it is such a small number of people who are doing without basics then how much can it possibly cost to help them. How could you drive by them knowing it doesn’t have to happen. Who could they possibly be to not deserve our help.
Think of it as a neighborhood beutification project if it helps but you can’t tell me that it costs too much to help these people.
March 30th, 2008 at 5:48 pmPredatory lenders are just the same as Republican pols….they tell a borrower things that the borrower wants to hear and hide all the bad stuff the lenders have in store.
March 30th, 2008 at 5:49 pmwintermd Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
How can you expect people with 25K/year income to pay 15K/year for decent health insurance?
please..who has to pay 15K. I have cancer, insurance and pay a family plan under 3K/yr.
please, facts please
Oh , you mean like the “facts” you displayed in your previous post , where you stated that the kids in DC were polled and they all want vouchers…………..?
March 30th, 2008 at 5:51 pmBackup - school vouchers, no, how about raising the standards of the neighborhood school. Traveling to a different school involves economic strains on the lower income family.
Teachers need backup for disciplining kids who are out of control, schools are terrified of lawsuits. What happen to parental involvement ? Kids misbehave, parents attend class along with kids. Again, behaviour problems cross income lines. Parents are NOT parenting.
#102 - Don’t depend on links go look for yourself…talk to your local foodbank, when you give a check. Our media hardly reports on anything substantial, why would they bother with poor people.
March 30th, 2008 at 5:51 pmwintermd Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
gee, I even have a kid in college. She pays the $1,100 for medical care/yr there. NOT 15K. She has a $15 co-pay.
Oh and she made less than 5K last year. But she was responsable for her own health and care. She will not take free (Steal from they neighbors pocket) care.
$1,100 doesn’t even get you decent dental care here in the NorthEast ; she better stay healthy……………
March 30th, 2008 at 5:55 pmFred. I didn’t know that about the moose.
But, here’s my thing: Everyone is telling me about the people under the bridge or the kids starving, but, besides the anecdotal stories, there isn’t much (or any) reporting, links, proof.
If I told you that Bush is stopping hundreds of terror attacks every year against the U.S. and you should support him because he’s keeping you safe; you would probably want to see some evidence of it.
I hear alot about how bad conditions are for the poor in this country. Show me the evidence. I’m not saying you’re wrong, I just don’t see it, unless someone shows me.
If there’s credible evidence that many have to resort to living under bridges, or that children are starving, or any other gauge of significant hardship for U.S. poor; link it.
If you can show the evidence, we can debate it, and address it. If you convince me that conditions are deplorable, I will change my mind. It will make me more inclined to vote for a progressive than a conservative.
But, unless you answer the requests for some credible evidence, it just comes off as rhetoric. As hollow as me suggesting that you just take my word that Bush policies are responsible for averting hundreds of terror plots every year.
And most agree that unemployment today is relatively low. The economy has got some problems, but, unemployment is not one of them.
March 30th, 2008 at 5:56 pmone person? Or a family, or just you and your wife, how old are you?, etc.
My example is for decent health insurance for a couple in mid 50’s with one having a pre-existing condition.
2000 deductable for hospital stay. 25 copay for doctors, 10 dollars for prescriptions. 2million cap.
1300/month fact.
March 30th, 2008 at 5:57 pmtexaslady at 5:02 pm
Katy - interesting thing,one school is teaching 5th graders what things cost and how to balance a checkbook. I thought parents are suppose to do that,…
5th grade seems way too early! turning them into good little spenders, sounds like… i took a required basic business class in 11th grade, public h.s., 1969/70…
March 30th, 2008 at 5:58 pmnumbers give me a headache, but i’m glad for that class… both of my kids took similar classes in high school - same school system…
…
Is the Cap’n really disputing that there are homeless people in the US?
Seriously?
March 30th, 2008 at 6:01 pmbackup Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
If I told you that Bush is stopping hundreds of terror attacks every year against the U.S. and you should support him because he’s keeping you safe; you would probably want to see some evidence of it.
Ummm , isn’t that also based upon the fact that Chimpy and Co have done nothing besides bullshit constantly since entering the White House over 7 years ago ?
And the retarded 19%’ers apologizing and excuse-making for the moron doesn’t help with that argument , either……….
March 30th, 2008 at 6:02 pmMcMetal - I enjoy your humor. We all have friends who never have known poverty, how can they understand. But, those abusing the system are not contained to just lazy or poor people and that I wish everyone understood.
March 30th, 2008 at 6:03 pmwintermd Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
1300/month fact.
You need to shop around
Yeah , everybody can afford to hop on a plane and visit the place you claim your daughter gets coverage for $1,100 for the year………
March 30th, 2008 at 6:03 pmbackup - you would do well to familiarize yourself with the Mother Ship…
:-)
seriously, that is how i started out learning many of the issues… even before this blog ThinkProgress came about…
start here, since you wanted info on POVERTY:
March 30th, 2008 at 6:04 pmhttp://www.americanprogress.org/issues/domestic/poverty
wintermd Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
10 dollars for prescriptions
You do know that the evil Walmart sells many drugs for $4?
Yeah , they can afford to do that when they’re suing former employees in wheelchairs ………………….
March 30th, 2008 at 6:04 pmtexaslady Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
McMetal - I enjoy your humor. We all have friends who never have known poverty, how can they understand. But, those abusing the system are not contained to just lazy or poor people and that I wish everyone understood.
Those who do not “understand” , simply choose not to ; that’s all.
I’ve never had AIDS , but do I need to , to know it is a horrible disease ?
March 30th, 2008 at 6:06 pmwintermd Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
We all have friends who never have known poverty, how can they understand.
yes, its the dreaded…you must be in poverty to…drum roll….understand it
MCMetal Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
texaslady Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
McMetal - I enjoy your humor. We all have friends who never have known poverty, how can they understand. But, those abusing the system are not contained to just lazy or poor people and that I wish everyone understood.
Those who do not “understand” , simply choose not to ; that’s all.
I’ve never had AIDS , but do I need to , to know it is a horrible disease ?
March 30th, 2008 at 6:07 pmKaty - it really isn’t too soon, kids realize how much money goes just for food, makes them think twice before begging for the newest software. Allowances and budgeting for somethng special helps to make a child as self sufficient as possible.
March 30th, 2008 at 6:07 pmanother recommendation (reminded by texas lady ) :
The Conservative Nanny State
How the Wealthy Use the Government to Stay Rich and Get Richer
by Dean Baker, published May 2006
In his new book, economist Dean Baker debunks the myth that conservatives favor the market over government intervention. In fact, conservatives rely on a range of “nanny state” policies that ensure the rich get richer while leaving most Americans worse off. It’s time for the rules to change. Sound economic policy should harness the market in ways that produce desirable social outcomes – decent wages, good jobs and affordable health care.
http://www.conservativenannystate.org/
March 30th, 2008 at 6:09 pmwintermd Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
Yeah , they can afford to do that when they’re suing former employees in wheelchairs
evil walmart also has doctors for $65, and glasses for under $50
at these rates I may just drop the insurance, and get me a catastrophic policy for any more big events.
Easy to get others onto your payroll when you pay Chinese children $1 a day to put together the shit on your shelves………
March 30th, 2008 at 6:12 pm#130 - You just don’t get it, do you? Well life has a way of explaining to those who are really smug.
March 30th, 2008 at 6:14 pmwintermd
March 30th, 2008 at 6:16 pmDays later, with my friend’s situation still on my mind, I met a new neighbor who was a Wal-Mart sales clerk. He worked there full time but could not afford the health care plan they offered. Wait a minute, I thought. This clerk worked full time for a company whose profit was ten BILLION dollars annually, and they did not provide health care? But it got worse. The clerk said that the company had very kindly advised him how to apply for Medicare, so he could get public aid. -Robert Greenwald.
#138 - Don’t bother. He wouldn’t believe you if you said water was wet. He’s obviously getting his jollies by automatically gainsaying anything that’s posted. Just flag the troll.
March 30th, 2008 at 6:16 pmThose who protest the loudest are the first to line up for help.
March 30th, 2008 at 6:17 pmTheToonGuy Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
#138 - Don’t bother. He wouldn’t believe you if you said water was wet. He’s obviously getting his jollies by automatically gainsaying anything that’s posted. Just flag the troll.
He’d learn quicker( better?) if I just slapped him and knocked up his daughter………….
March 30th, 2008 at 6:19 pm#140 - You are totally right. They need to pick up a book and read instead of making silly comments.
March 30th, 2008 at 6:19 pmWhats the wait for a vet to get an MRI wintermd?
March 30th, 2008 at 6:20 pmwintermd Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
I showed you how to get inexpensive healthcare…all across the USA.
You have no backup for your points, just left wing hate talking points.
The USA has a market based system. Please go to Canada, and their 10 week wait for a simple MRI. Something the market provides in less than 2 days here.
just GOOGLE canada MRI waiting times and you get “The median wait for an MRI across Canada was 10.1 weeks in 2007?
What the hell have you “shown” everyone , besides your ignorance , arrogance and stupidity , you moronic GOP/Chimpy leg humping tool ?
You’ve claimed your daughter pays $1,100 per year for health insurance while attending college ; yet you did not divulge where you live , nor which particular school she currently attends.
All you’ve done is make unsubstantiated claims , like your retarded simian hero in the Oval Office has for 7+ years……..
March 30th, 2008 at 6:22 pmYour wife is not a vet.
March 30th, 2008 at 6:23 pmwintermd Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
I am a Vet. I am not on any Free Gov system, so my wife got one in less than 1 day.
Thats the market at work….nice.
You mean a veteranarian ; there’s no way you served in the military , you GOP/Chimpy nut hugging stooge………
March 30th, 2008 at 6:24 pmXisithrus Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 6:23 pm
Your wife is not a vet.
His wife is also not female…………
March 30th, 2008 at 6:25 pmChanged your name from Mazda to Akita?
March 30th, 2008 at 6:27 pmAkita75 Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
Hey All McCai9n said was we shouldn’t bail out Speculators. Krugman lied! As did TP!
And BearStearns is what ? An individual , nitwit ?
March 30th, 2008 at 6:27 pmSo do you So Called Marxists, -Akita
Progressives are not Marxist, he was a fraud.
March 30th, 2008 at 6:27 pmit’s a 14 year old, fantasizing…
March 30th, 2008 at 6:28 pmi’m surprised it’s lasted this long…
Akita75 Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
So do you So Called Marxists, um I mean Progressives believe in bailing out Specualtors who caused this mess?
McLieberman believes in corporate welfare ; do you , GOP/Chimpy ass kisser ?
March 30th, 2008 at 6:28 pm#147 - You are a Vet ? Doesn’t that qualify you for the Veterans Hospital and its care ? So, you served your country but then get free government care for life. Hmmmmm. Say four years maybe but free care for life.
March 30th, 2008 at 6:28 pmNo.
March 30th, 2008 at 6:29 pmTrajan..lame.
March 30th, 2008 at 6:30 pmMcCain has flipped and flopped more than Schrodingers fish on a hot beach trying to avoid hungry seagulls. The man has no POV.
March 30th, 2008 at 6:32 pmwintermd Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
You’ve claimed your daughter pays $1,100 per year for health insurance while attending college ; yet you did not divulge where you live , nor which particular school she currently attends.
ok..you got me…the real number was $1,129
gee..it went up on me
so sorry. I stand corrected
And there you stand , still incorrect and stupid (no big surprise , actually).
All you’re doing is throwing numbers out ; not immutable fact(s).
You’re still making an unsubstantiated claim , like every typical Chimpy ball monger has for the last 7 years.
You’re a pathetic clown………….
March 30th, 2008 at 6:32 pmAkita75 Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Xisithrus,
Well I’m emailing the factor to show them our new site. There’s 5 of us watching you guys! So keep up with the anti-Christian, Anti-Israel and Pro-Jihad comments
You guys are No#1 with me ; guess which finger I’m holding up , jerkweed ?
March 30th, 2008 at 6:33 pmwintermd Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Why would I pick your pocket? I just can’t think of how I could.
That’s the 1st thing you’ve gotten correct ; the cost might not be exorbitant , but the healing time from a broken arm and wrist would cause you quite a long , unwanted vacation……..
March 30th, 2008 at 6:35 pmso what have ya got there, maybe 60 posts on all those threads….You seem to be the only one there.
March 30th, 2008 at 6:37 pmwintermd Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
That’s the 1st thing you’ve gotten correct ; the cost might not be exorbitant
Ah..you just let the government pick your pockets then…. I see
Ummm , no , obviously you do not.
Do you realize that your daughter’s coverage for inpatient and/or outpatient visits is only 60-80% ?
And I didn’t even read if that was for something MAJOR ; you haven’t got a clue , do you , chump ?
March 30th, 2008 at 6:41 pmwintermd Says:
March 30th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
All you’re doing is throwing numbers out ; not immutable fact(s).
did you follow the link? Its the UCF web site and it has…gasp…numbers
Yup
Just like the numbers I threw out at you above , chump……..
March 30th, 2008 at 6:42 pm