ThinkFast: April 24, 2008
ThinkFast: April 24, 2008
At the trial of Chicago fundraiser Tony Rezko, a “government witness claims Rezko discussed efforts among top Republicans, including former White House political director Karl Rove and GOP national committeeman Robert Kjellander,” to have U.S. attorney Patrick Fitzgerald “fired to derail a corruption probe.”
New data suggest that Iraq will “reap an even larger than expected windfall this year — as much as $70 billion” in oil revenue. With oil prices near $120 a barrel, USA Today writes that the news will likely “strengthen the hand of U.S. lawmakers complaining that Iraqis aren’t footing enough of the bill for rebuilding their nation.”
“The CIA concluded that criminal, administrative or civil investigations stemming from harsh interrogation tactics were ‘virtually inevitable,’ leading the agency to seek legal support from the Justice Department,” according to court documents filed yesterday. “”It appears to be a calculated and calibrated effort to justify the unjustifiable,” said Curt Goernig of Amnesty International.
In testimony before the House Judiciary Committee yesterday, FBI Director Robert Mueller “recalled warning the Justice Department and the Pentagon that some U.S. interrogation methods used against terrorists might be inappropriate, if not illegal.” “Mueller said some of the FBI’s concerns dated back to 2002, when top al Qaeda detainees were waterboarded by CIA interrogators.”
Yesterday, health experts testified to the House oversight committee that abstinence-only programs “have not cut teen pregnancies or sexually transmitted diseases or delayed the age at which sex begins.” Dr. Margaret Blythe of the American Academy of Pediatrics said that there is even evidence that some of these programs, favored by the Bush administration, are “harmful and have negative consequences.”
Yesterday the House voted “to block the Bush administration from cutting federal spending on Medicaid health care for the poor by $13 billion over the next five years.” The AP reports that “President Bush has threatened a veto, but supporters have more than enough votes to override him in the House, and maybe in the Senate, too.”
Senior U.S. officials are expected to tell lawmakers that “a video taken inside a secret Syrian facility last summer convinced the Israeli government and the Bush administration that North Korea was helping to construct a reactor similar to one that produces plutonium for North Korea’s nuclear arsenal.” The video “played a pivotal role in Israel’s decision to bomb the facility late at night last Sept. 6.”
Atmospheric levels of the principal heat-trapping gas, carbon dioxide, are continuing to rise at an accelerating rate,” according to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. “After a decade of stability, levels of an even more potent heat-trapper, methane,” have risen as well. Both gases increased due to “the burning of fossil fuels.”
The congressional leadership offices employ “full-time staffers who serve as liaisons to the political blogging world.” CQ writes that “the largest such operation” may be in House Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s office. Also, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) “has been following the bloggers for a few years now and has actually written a number of his own blog posts.”
And finally: On Tuesday, New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman spoke at Brown University about responding to climate change. However, not everyone liked his speech. A few seconds into his address, “environmental activists…stormed the stage” and began “tossing two paper plates loaded with shamrock-colored whipped cream at him. Friedman ducked, and was left with only minor streams of the sugary green goo on his black pants and turtleneck.”
What did we miss? Let us know in the comments section.
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Administration Set to Use New Spy Program in US ?from The Washington Post
The Bush administration said it plans to start using the nation’s most advanced spy technology for domestic purposes soon, rebuffing challenges by House Democrats over the idea’s legal authority. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said his department will activate his new domestic satellite surveillance office in stages, starting as soon as possible…
Full unedited article:
April 24th, 2008 at 9:00 amhttp://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/041308D.shtml
Help Stop Bush’s State Secrets Privilege Abuse
The Bush administration has repeatedly invoked the state secrets privilege, a doctrine that was adopted in the McCarthy era, that was originally meant to be used only in exceptional circumstances. Since 2001, however, the Bush Administration has repeatedly abused the privilege in attempts to cover up potentially embarrassing or illegal activities in cases involving warrantless wiretapping and other aspects of the NSA’s domestic spy program, kidnapping, aka ‘extraordinary rendition‘, and torture, just to name a few. They have relied on it not only to silence critics and whistleblowers, but also to use it as a shield to go after them like they have to James Risen, Sibel Edmonds and many others. Just this week it’s come out that they once again have invoked it in an attempt to keep the details hidden in the case against Thomas Kontogiannis, one of the convicted bribers of Republican congressman Randy “Duke” Cunningham, where the executive branch has asserted that once they deem something classified, the “courts are virtually powerless to review or disagree.”
It’s way past time Congress steps in to put a stop to it.
Electronic Frontier Foundation:
Now, Congress may finally be ready to act to rein in these abuses. On Thursday, the Senate Judiciary Committee will consider S.2533, the State Secrets Protection Act, which would bring much needed judicial supervision that could help eliminate bogus state secrets claims, while carefully protecting legitimate interests in national security.
The Judiciary Committee has 10 Democrats and 9 Republicans. All the Democratic Senators need to step up to the plate and put a stop to all of the cover ups. It is within their power to do something to end this criminal activity. The Bush Administration has made a mockery of our Constitution. They would not be able to use EP as a shield to protect all of their illegal secrets. Crooks & Liars has a list of the 19 Senators if anyone wants to email them for their state. Unfortunately, in my case there isn’t a Senator from Ohio on the committee.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:02 amSurrender, Integrity
I don’t watch much CNN anymore, or TV news in general for that matter. I figure since there’s no longer a steady paycheck to provide the requisite level of incentive, there’s really no need to subject myself to most of the horseshit the networks try to pass off as legitimate news these days.
The average human digestive tract can handle only so many breathless reports on the latest out-of-control teens or bombastic warnings about the threat posed by plastic water bottles before it goes all Lovecraft and starts trying to force itself out of any orifice it can find. I’d like to believe that joining the ranks of those who play 24/7 watchdog to the news industry — the ones attempting to Quixotically stand against the tide of daily abuses — will make some kind of difference, but I’m just not sure that’s the case.
They’re fighting the good fight and bringing the power of new media to bear against a previously unchecked leviathan, sure — but there are times when I can’t help but believe they’re stoically trying to empty Lake Michigan with a spoon. But when a discordian convergence of the magnitude that we’ve witnessed in the past several days occurs, it makes me just want to throw in the towel, take my Paxil and let the chemically-induced somnambulance wash over me like a warm bath.
It started last week, at the annual National Association of Broadcasters convention in Las Vegas. The event’s keynote speaker was none other than actor, activist and occasionally pompous ass Tim Robbins; he took the opportunity to verbally scold America’s broadcasting community while simultaneously calling upon it to remember its responsibility to the public, reinvest itself in quality product and turn away from celeb-fellating, political ass-kissing, ratings-driven nonsense. Given the amount of lip service paid to Robbins’s noble but perfunctory attempt at forcing change from within the industry, you’d figure on at least a minor grace period of self-reflection and soul-searching from America’s broadcasters before completely disregarding any drunken vows taken in Vegas to clean up their act. You’d of course be wrong.
These people are like addicts: They’ll never admit they’ve got a problem. Which is why, just one week after Robbins’ verbal beat-down and the obligatory head-hanging and hand-wringing it produced, two of America’s most powerful television networks are still doing what they do best — and that’s whatever the hell they have to do to get ratings, regardless of how shameful an abandonment of their responsibility to respectable broadcasting.
Two nights ago, NBC’s strangely successful game show Deal or No Deal was visited — via a satellite image displayed on a huge, somewhat Orwellian monitor — by George W. Bush. The surreal image of a giant George W. Bush head doing its self-deprecating “aw shucks” routine while wishing the best to a man who’s spent the past few years dodging bullets and picking sand out of his ass in the name of a war Bush himself started was almost too much to take. All that was missing was a final Vaudevillian mug to the camera and a hearty “Sock it to me!”
But if you think that’s bad, it’s a journalistic parking ticket compared to what CNN just did: It hired former White House Press Secretary and Fox News shill Tony Snow. I’ve had plenty to say recently about CNN’s comically inept attempts at proving to the Fox Fans that it can be trusted with their viewership; the network has basically bent over backward and twisted itself into one ethical pretzel after another trying to gain momentum against FNC’s ratings juggernaut — abandoning every principle it swore to uphold at its inception and napalming the very last vestiges of its journalistic credibility in the precious name of ad revenue.
This is only part of the article by Chez Pazienza at HuffingtonPost.com. It has got to be hands down one of the best articles I have ever read blasting the networks. Chez did not mince words at his disgust of the two most powerful network giants NBC & CNN for catering to Fox Fans and to the White House. Ratings are paramount to the networks, legitimate news and holding this administration accountable to viewers has taken a backseat. We (the viewers) have become a distant second.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:05 amIsraelis Claim Secret Agreement With US
The Washington Post
Americans insist no deal made on settlement growth.
U.S. officials say no such agreement exists, and in recent months Rice has publicly criticized even settlement expansion on the outskirts of Jerusalem, which Israel does not officially count as settlements. But as peace negotiations have stepped up in recent months, so has the pace of settlement construction, infuriating Palestinian officials, and Washington has taken no punitive action against Israel for its settlement efforts.
Full unedited article:
April 24th, 2008 at 9:06 amhttp://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/042408M.shtml
New data suggest that Iraq will “reap an even larger than expected windfall this year — as much as $70 billion” in oil revenue.
Then why are they asking the other arab countries to forgive or suspend Iraq’s foreign debt?
April 24th, 2008 at 9:10 amIsn’t it funny. With just the first four posts here today you’ll learn and understand more about the world than you would with 12 hours of coprorate newscasts and talk radio.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:12 am“After a decade of stability, levels of an even more potent heat-trapper, methane,” have risen as well. Both gases increased due to “the burning of fossil fuels.”
And by the melting of frozen methane clathrates.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:12 amTom Freidman’s pants streaked in sugary goo? Do we really need that visual this early in the morning?
April 24th, 2008 at 9:13 am2MillionLightYearsToAndromeda Says: Isn’t it funny. With just the first four posts here today you’ll learn and understand more about the world than you would with 12 hours of coprorate newscasts and talk radio.
Don’t strain yourself with all that backpatting…
April 24th, 2008 at 9:15 am#1 2MillionLightYearsToAndromeda Says:
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Administration Set to Use New Spy Program in US ?from The Washington Post
The Bush administration said it plans to start using the nation’s most advanced spy technology for domestic purposes soon, rebuffing challenges by House Democrats over the idea’s legal authority.
This is such an intrusion of privacy. How can they possible justify using this??? What next??
April 24th, 2008 at 9:17 am”It appears to be a calculated and calibrated effort to justify the unjustifiable,” said Curt Goernig of Amnesty International.
What I don’t understand is how or why any American participated in torture. If I was in the military, FBI, CIA or whatever agency told me to torture someone, my reaction would have been “I don’t think so”. I don’t care if that would mean I would be fired. I would not want that on my conscience for the remainder of my days. The only conclusion I can come to is that they found people who have no conscience.
I’m wondering if all the people who witnessed the crimes of the Bush Crime Family, including torture, will come out after Bush is gone and tell us what really happened. The fact that so many people have remained silent while vile crimes have been committed makes me very sad.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:18 amHamas, Israel, Syria, Lebanon & others beware; Hill-Dog may nuke you when you least expect it, obliterating people along with any chances for peace.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:21 amIn testimony before the House Judiciary Committee yesterday, FBI Director Robert Mueller “recalled warning the Justice Department and the Pentagon that some U.S. interrogation methods used against terrorists might be inappropriate, if not illegal.”
Is that so Mueller. Well where in the hell have you been since then? Why didn’t you do the right thing and go to the press? Oh, that would have cost you your job. Well too bad. What you and others have done by remaining silent has cost this country way more than your job is worth.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:21 am#6 2MillionLightYearsToAndromeda Says:
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Isn’t it funny. With just the first four posts here today you’ll learn and understand more about the world than you would with 12 hours of coprorate newscasts and talk radio.
LOL- OMG It is tragically sad that you are completely accurate. Great Posts 2Mil, don’t ever stop!!!
April 24th, 2008 at 9:21 amjust found this on the google news page, when i refreshed it was gone it may have been from yesterday… but see that TP picked up the story…
Ex-Bush Aide’s Name Surfaces in Rezko Trial
ABC News – 1 hour ago
By JUSTIN ROOD and MELISSA MURPHY A possible witness in the federal trial against Antoin “Tony” Rezko would testify that former White House aide Karl Rove was involved in discussions to remove US attorney Patrick Fitzgerald from the brewing case …
GOP heavyweights reportedly tried to oust Fitzgerald Chicago Tribune
Rove didn’t seek Fitzgerald ouster, atty says Baltimore Sun
Chicago Daily Herald
ah ha! i just KNEW kkkarl had a hand it the deal…
April 24th, 2008 at 9:22 ambaltimore sun reports otherwise…
Yesterday the House voted “to block the Bush administration from cutting federal spending on Medicaid health care for the poor by $13 billion over the next five years.”
I guess Bush doesn’t think we have enough people in this country without access to medical care, he wants to add to their numbers. George W. Bush has no conscience and has no soul. What a sad human being he is.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:22 am2MillionLightYearsToAndromeda Says:
Isn’t it funny. With just the first four posts here today you’ll learn and understand more about the world than you would with 12 hours of coprorate newscasts and talk radio.
You could say that about the daily horoscope, which is why people shouldn’t waste their time with tv “news”. Read newspapers, listen to NPR, tune in to Thom Hartmann, and read a lot more books.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:24 amA few seconds into his address, “environmental activists…stormed the stage” and began “tossing two paper plates loaded with shamrock-colored whipped cream at him. Friedman ducked, and was left with only minor streams of the sugary green goo on his black pants and turtleneck.”
These stunts always go badly because they don’t do a practice run first, to work out the flaws.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:24 amSo, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid read the blogs. Their ears must be burning. This says that they know what we think about their ability to lead. Apparently it doesn’t make any difference to them because they are both failing miserably at their jobs.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:25 amIsraelis Claim Secret Agreement With US
April 24th, 2008 at 9:25 amWashington Post – 7 hours ago
By Glenn Kessler A letter that President Bush personally delivered to then-Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon four years ago has emerged as a significant obstacle to the president’s efforts to forge a peace deal between the Israelis and Palestinians …
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/23/AR2008042303128.html?hpid=sec-world
Bilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
What a sad human being he (Botch) is.
______________
Why assume he’s human?????
April 24th, 2008 at 9:28 amToday, driving in to work, gas prices here in Southwest Michigan are $3.69 a gallon.
I am saddened that there are single moms that have to drive to a daycare or a relative, just to drop off their kids so they then can drive to 2 different jobs so they can just make ends meet. And gawd forbid one of their children get sick, and the mom has to drive to the school, then drive one way 30 miles to the only pediatrician’s office that will take their insurance, all the while losing a day’s pay.
I am also saddened that there are struggling middle class families, who’ve paid mega bucks for their children’s interest in sports, only to have to drive many miles to daily or every other day practices, and games or matches.
Then I see where oil companies have made record profits, and I am enraged!!!
Thank you, Mr.President, for putting big companies above people. I appreciate the record deficit you and your cronies have created, to which future generations will be indebted to China. Thank you, sir, for bringing your many miserable failures into a nationwide problem. I’m so glad to see your ilk prosper greatly while the majority of your country suffers.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:29 amI lean more towards the left every day because of you, and your pathetic history as president!!!
>“strengthen the hand of U.S. lawmakers complaining that >Iraqis aren’t footing enough of the bill
more trillions of taxpayer dollars down the drain?
April 24th, 2008 at 9:30 amb-b-u t at least they will al have backpacks, right MostlyNeuteredFemale?
Florida lawmakers debate offering a Christian license plate
April 24th, 2008 at 9:30 amThe Associated Press – 5 hours ago
MIAMI (AP) – Florida drivers can order more than 100 specialty license plates celebrating everything from manatees to the Miami Heat, but one now under consideration would be the first in the nation to explicitly promote a specific religion.
So, what does everyone think about Hillary’s claim that she is ahead in the popular vote? What a crock. In order to make that claim she has to add in all the votes in MI and FL and ignore the caucus states. The problem is, she awards Obama zero votes in MI. Does she really think that Obama would have gotten zero popular votes in MI if it was a true primary? And then there the problem with ignoring the caucus states. In her mind they don’t count. She talks about disenfranchised voters in MI and FL, but she then disenfranchises the voters in the caucus states.
Spin…spin…spin. I don’t understand how she doesn’t get dizzy and keel over with all the spinning she is doing.
She has become pathetic and has crossed the threshold of making a fool of herself.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:31 amSPOKANE — Former White House Press Secretary Tony Snow has canceled a public speaking engagement at Eastern Washington University because of an undisclosed illness.
Snow, who was supposed to hold a public lecture at Eastern Tuesday afternoon as part of the Presidential Speaker Series, was taken to a local hospital around 9:30 a.m. for medical care.
The former longtime Fox News commentator and press secretary for the Bush administration was diagnosed with colon cancer in 2005 and had his colon removed. Last year while serving as President Bush’s press secretary, Snow underwent surgery to investigate an abdominal growth. The surgery revealed that the growth was cancerous and had metastasized.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:31 amThe article also says he won’t be on CNN today.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:32 amBilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
The fact that so many people have remained silent while vile crimes have been committed makes me very sad.
____________
I call it “the web of complicity”, Bilbo. It’s the same reason the 3rd Reich managed to spiral and mutate into the horror that it did. If madmen gave orders and no one followed them, things like this wouldn’t happen. It’s when more and more people go along w/ the orders and don’t question them that they do. It takes a lot of yes men, and women, to make a mess as big as this.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:32 am>the Senate Judiciary Committee will consider S.2533, the >State Secrets Protection Act
good idea, wont go anywhere i predict. some dems are decent but many are as bought and paid for as republicans, and the judicial construct known as “state secrets” is a perfect tool for hiding the truth from the masses which is what people with power almost invariably want to do with it..
April 24th, 2008 at 9:34 am#15 katy Says:
GOP heavyweights reportedly tried to oust Fitzgerald Chicago Tribune
Rove didn’t seek Fitzgerald ouster, atty says Baltimore Sun
Chicago Daily Herald
ah ha! i just KNEW kkkarl had a hand it the deal…
baltimore sun reports otherwise…
Good Morning Katy! At this point I would love to see Karl convicted of at least half the crimes he has commited. Even half would ensure that he would spend life in prison without the possibility of parole.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:34 amThe Republic of Stupidity Says:
Bilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
What a sad human being he (Botch) is.
_____________
Why assume he’s human?????
You are right. He gave up his humanity a long time ago.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:35 amBilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
Spin…spin…spin. I don’t understand how she doesn’t get dizzy and keel over with all the spinning she is doing.
She has become pathetic and has crossed the threshold of making a fool of herself.
________________
But… but at least she’s not flip-flopping, bilbo…
Snark/off…
April 24th, 2008 at 9:36 amBilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
You are right. He gave up his humanity a long time ago.
____________________
Have they removed all the mirrors from the WH to prevent any possibly embarrassing moments?
April 24th, 2008 at 9:38 amDon’t you realize everything you say is also “spin?” Are you ignoring the fact she actually won Pennsylvania (and not by a slight margin)?
April 24th, 2008 at 9:40 amWhat did we miss?
Here’s what’s happening in my town:
http://www.newsobserver.com/politics/story/1048072.html
I posted this yesterday as an off-topic in another thread, but here’s some more detail.
The North Carolina GOP needs to raise money, and it has decided to do it with Jesse Helms-style politics. Therefore, they have put together an ad associating Obama with the now-familiar snippets of his pastor, and conflating both of the Democratic candidates for governor with this (both candidates support Obama).
The NCGOP admits this ad won’t really sway anybody’s vote — they just want to use it to raise money from their base.
McCain and the national GOP have condemned the ad, and have asked the NCGOP to pull it. The NCGOP is going to run it anyway.
As Bilbo pointed out yesterday, this maneuver allows for mudslinging while McCain gets to keep the dirt off him. I look for more of this tactic between now and November.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:42 amThe Dim Wit is at it again:
Don’t you realize everything you say is also “spin?” Are you ignoring the fact she actually won Pennsylvania (and not by a slight margin)?
Since I didn’t mention PA, I don’t understand how you call it spin. So tell me Dim Wit (I love your moniker, it’s so accurate), what was spin in what I posted?
April 24th, 2008 at 9:44 amDim Wit
April 24th, 2008 at 9:44 amha! well, obviously i posted before reading the comments…
excuse the double up… and, good morning, too!
i’m out to finish the waterfall on my new & improved garden pond… was out there ALL DAY yesterday… it’s like putting a puzzle together… it’s just a little thing, but it’s taken so long!
rain is due later, so i must finish up this morning… the ol’ body is stiff and sore… but i must proceed…
see yas!
April 24th, 2008 at 9:45 ambarfly Says:
2MillionLightYearsToAndromeda Says: Isn’t it funny. With just the first four posts here today you’ll learn and understand more about the world than you would with 12 hours of coprorate newscasts and talk radio.
Don’t strain yourself with all that backpatting…
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Thanks for your concern about my shoulder. It’s holding up well.
Just kidding.
I should’ve been more inclusive and said you’ll learn more with the posts made here in just the first hour.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:46 amSorry for the incomplete post, don’t know how that happened.
Dim Wit is concerned that I didn’t mention Hillary’s PA win. I didn’t mention it because it MEANS NOTHING in the scheme of things. She still can’t win, period. She will now continue her scorched earth policy for another two weeks, further weakening the Democratic party. She will do this knowing that she can’t win. All Hillary Clinton cares about is herself and her huge ego. She doesn’t care about this country. She doesn’t care if she is helping McCain. And she certainly doesn’t care about you and me.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:46 amSo Iran has been negotiating with the IAEA and will allow inspectors to investigate allegations of it’s past and present nuclear program. Does anyone think this will do anything to help quiet down the neocon rhetoric?
http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2008/04/23/iran_calls_for_nuclear_negotiations/5049/
Probably not.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:47 ammisshusseinmolly Says:
What did we miss?
As Bilbo pointed out yesterday, this maneuver allows for mudslinging while McCain gets to keep the dirt off him. I look for more of this tactic between now and November.
_________________
Randi Rhodes played that ad on her radio show last night. Talk about ugly. I agree w/ Bilbo’s comment and yes, you will definitely be seeing more of this tactic, much, much more… between now and November.
KKKarl must be giddy w/ the prospects…
April 24th, 2008 at 9:48 ammisshusseinmolly Says:
As Bilbo pointed out yesterday, this maneuver allows for mudslinging while McCain gets to keep the dirt off him. I look for more of this tactic between now and November.
And as Keith pointed out on Countdown last night, it makes McCain look weak. What a message that sends. The presidential candidate asks them to pull the ad and they tell him “screw you”. Shows how much sway McCain has.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:49 amAnother winner from the GOP.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/23/politics/main4036356.shtml
April 24th, 2008 at 9:51 amDonkeyd1ck Says:
Troll alert…troll alert. Cleanup on aisle 7.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:52 amkaty Says:
Katy- Congrats on the new pond. I put one together several years ago and believe me, the enjoyment and serenity it brings is well worth the effort! Good luck!
April 24th, 2008 at 9:52 amexcept to say this:
missmolly – “McCain and the national GOP have condemned the ad”
heard rachel talk about this on her show, and keith also… she mentioned that this way mcSAME gets to take the high road, while taking advantage of the low road…
sure, but I think he “condemned” the ad because he doesn’t want the dems to
bring up his romance with hagee and parsley…
i doubt he put up much of a fight though…
…
about hillary claiming “most votes”… she is definitely parsing her words very
April 24th, 2008 at 9:53 amcarefully… “of those who voted” … hahaha!
at least the talking heads on countdown and a few others are pointing out the
actual FACTS, instead of letting her SPIN like that… too bad they aren’t following
up at her rallies…
Faux News on a science issue? HaHaHaHaHaaaaa!
April 24th, 2008 at 9:53 amDonkeyd1ck Says:
You missed this!!
___________________
Here’s a part of the article the appropriately named “Donkeyd1ck” didn’t bother to cut-and-paste…
[Critics quickly pointed out that Chapman may have been "cherry-picking" the data. A strong La Nina formation in the Pacific pushed down January temperatures over much of the Northern Hemisphere from where they had been a year earlier, but average global temperatures are still much higher than the 20th-century average, and the NOAA said last week that last month was the warmest March on record.]
______________
One year’s difference does not a trend make…
April 24th, 2008 at 9:56 amDoes anybody know why comments get a notice: Your comment is awaiting moderation?
I’ve gotten that notice three days in a row now.
Even when I checked back six hours later the message is still there.
Does this only show up on my computer?
Can anybody else see it on my post re: Dark Matter?
April 24th, 2008 at 9:57 amI’ve gotten that notice twice in recent weeks. It was still there hrs later.
I’m not seeing your post on dark matter.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:59 amChocolate Jesus Says:
>the Senate Judiciary Committee will consider S.2533, the >State Secrets Protection Act
good idea, wont go anywhere i predict. some dems are decent but many are as bought and paid for as republicans, and the judicial construct known as “state secrets” is a perfect tool for hiding the truth from the masses which is what people with power almost invariably want to do with it..
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Would’ve made a helluva’ good question for the Hillary/Barack debate.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:00 amThe Republic of Stupidity Says:
I’ve gotten that notice twice in recent weeks. It was still there hrs later.
I’m not seeing your post on dark matter.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:02 am———————————–
It’s post #45. If you can’t see it that means it will probably never show up. I’ll try it again.
The Republic of Stupidity Says:
Donkeyd1ck Says:
You missed this!!
___________________
Here’s a part of the article the appropriately named “Donkeyd1ck” didn’t bother to cut-and-paste…
[Critics quickly pointed out that Chapman may have been “cherry-picking” the data. A strong La Nina formation in the Pacific pushed down January temperatures over much of the Northern Hemisphere from where they had been a year earlier, but average global temperatures are still much higher than the 20th-century average, and the NOAA said last week that last month was the warmest March on record.]
______________
One year’s difference does not a trend make…
April 24th, 2008 at 9:56 am
Goon Golly sock puppet? That linking to an article that contradicts the premise is eerily familiar.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:03 amBilbo Hussein Baggins @ 9;46,
“I didn’t mention it because it MEANS NOTHING in the scheme of things.”
- – -
1,260,000 Pennsylvanians voted for Hillary. I’m glad to know that, to you, they mean “NOTHING” I guess in the grand scheme of things, if the remaining primaries mean nothing, there is no reason to even bother with them.
Sorry voters of the states of Oregon, Indiana, North Carolina, etc. It has been determined that your right to vote is essentially pointless and we will not be needing your input into this election. However, in your best interest the rest of the country will pick your candidate for you.
And BTW, could you come up with a new insult for me. Everyday I’ve got to read how my moniker is so accurate. C’mon bilbo, I know you’ve got to be a little more creative than that.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:03 am> Would’ve made a helluva’ good
> question for the Hillary/Barack debate.
which of course is why only a comedy show, like the daily show, will probably end up asking it.. when truth has become a joke i guess jokes become the truth, or something..yeah..put that one in a fortunte cookie and choke on it, mainstream media..
April 24th, 2008 at 10:04 amWow. I just posted the same information on Dark Matter and once again it immediately says: Your Comment is Awaiting Moderation.
What’s a matter TP…do you hate and censor Science just like the Republicans? Can’t I have a little fun and post something slightly different yet relevant?
April 24th, 2008 at 10:06 am” The Bush administration said it plans to start using the nation’s most advanced spy technology for domestic purposes soon, rebuffing challenges by House Democrats over the idea’s legal authority.
“This is such an intrusion of privacy. How can they possible justify using this??? What next??”
If Congress does not have the intestinal fortitude to impeach for such crimes, they will continue, ad infinitum, with impunity!
Write, call, fax, or visit Pelosi and Reid and read them the riot act!
April 24th, 2008 at 10:06 am2MillionLightYearsToAndromeda Says:
It’s post #45. If you can’t see it that means it will probably never show up. I’ll try it again.
_______________
Nooooooope… not seein’ it at #45.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:09 amBilbo Hussein Baggins Says
April 24th, 2008 at 9:46 am
Dim Wit is concerned that I didn’t mention Hillary’s PA win. I didn’t mention it because it MEANS NOTHING in the scheme of things. She still can’t win, period. She will now continue her scorched earth policy for another two weeks, further weakening the Democratic party. She will do this knowing that she can’t win. All Hillary Clinton cares about is herself and her huge ego. She doesn’t care about this country. She doesn’t care if she is helping McCain. And she certainly doesn’t care about you and me.
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I have found there are three basic types of political spinning — 1) highlight only those facts that enhance your message and ignore the facts that don’t, 2) creatively interpret factual information to enhance your message (including making reeeeeeeeeally stretched associations), and 3) tell lies.
Dim Wit is basically following the spin that because Hillary “won” Pennsylvania, she deserves the nomination. This pretty much falls under category (2) above. First, Hillary didn’t “win” Pennsylvania — she won more Pennsylvania delegates than Obama did. This isn’t the Electoral College. Her gains in delegates and popular vote aren’t enough to wipe out the lead in both categories Obama already has (furthermore, Obama will wipe out those gains on May 6 from the NC primary).
Other examples of creative spin from the Hillary camp:
1) Creative math — Hillary has twisted the vote figures around in an attempt to convince others she holds the popular vote lead. She is doing this by counting Florida and Michigan, even though those primaries weren’t fair (does she REALLY think nobody in Michigan would have voted for Obama?). And she is ignoring all the caucus states, many of which favored Obama. She winds up with bogus numbers she expects us to believe are the truth.
2) Claims she can win “the big states”. It’s a bit of a leap to suggest that just because you can manage a squeaker of a primary win in a large red state like Texas, that you can carry that state in the general election. Does Hillary really expect us to believe she can deliver Texas and Obama can’t? As far as other “big states” go, California and New York will be blue no matter who the candidate is. Clinton’s argument doesn’t hold water on this one.
3) Claims that she has passed the “Commander-in-Chief” test, as has McCain. And Obama hasn’t. Wow — when was this test administered? Can she give some details about this test? And how is it she “passes” it more than Obama?
Dim Wit is correct that just about all we say here could be called “spin”. However, there is a big difference in the kind of debate spin employed here and the twisted pretzel logic coming out of the Clinton machine.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:10 ammisshusseinmolly Says:
Dim Wit is correct that just about all we say here could be called “spin”.
_________________
Except for ME… ***Big Smile***… My momma sez I’m never wrong…
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However, there is a big difference in the kind of debate spin employed here and the twisted pretzel logic coming out of the Clinton machine.
_________________
In Bilbo’s defense, he didn’t mention Pennsylvania in his original post at all.
Dim Wit brought it up. Nuttin’ against ya, Dim Wit.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:14 amI like so many other parents don`t hide sex ed in the closet like these barn yard freaks on the Reich,I have some atricles on abstinence and from what I have read it doesn`t work.Talking to kids and being up front and honest about sex and wrap it up is what works at my house.
Once again the CHIMP wants to take away medicaid $$$$ for the poor and unfortunate who are the most likely people that their child enlisted and are dying for this bastard Bush and his rich wealthy top one percent,despite evrything that`s going on I would love for Rep. Conyers (Dem) from MI to start the impeachment process on the two chimps in D.C.,bringing home our soldiers and ending this occupation (war) would save this country a 150 billion dollars,stop giving $$$$to the oil companies and stop giving tax cuts to these wealthy, greedy corruption bastards dubya calls friends.I say spare no cost to put these people behind bars.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:31 amThe teaching of sexual abstinence to teen-agers reminds me of the conversation between Brer Fox and Brer Rabbit where Brer Rabbit pleads with Brer fox to not throw him into that briar patch. It would be more effective not to tell the kids it can’t be done but to help them do it SAFELY.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:33 amBut that would mean admitting that “Sex exists”, COB…
April 24th, 2008 at 10:35 amFirst of all, don’t speak for me. I have never suggested Hillary deserves the nomination and challenge you to show where I ever had.
Second, I don’t think Hillary deserves the nomination, but I also find it increasingly disturbing that certain people on this site who laud freedom and democracy and who openly criticize Bush and his friends for suppressing democracy, are so willing to take away the vote of those people who have yet to vote.
And yes, I realize the argument is going to be: “it doesn’t matter, she can’t win” but this argument is itself a form of spin.
Could you imagine going to Pennsylavania and telling the millions of people who live there: “You can vote for Hillary if you want, but she can’t win, so why bother”
I could further note your description that your own account of how you perceive your spin to be acceptable, but everyone else’s to be unacceptable is both self-serving and ethnocentrically biased.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:38 am#59 Doc Rock Says:
” The Bush administration said it plans to start using the nation’s most advanced spy technology for domestic purposes soon, rebuffing challenges by House Democrats over the idea’s legal authority.
“This is such an intrusion of privacy. How can they possible justify using this??? What next??”
If Congress does not have the intestinal fortitude to impeach for such crimes, they will continue, ad infinitum, with impunity!
Write, call, fax, or visit Pelosi and Reid and read them the riot act!
I will do that.. Thank you…
April 24th, 2008 at 10:41 am“The Bush administration said it plans to start using the nation’s most advanced spy technology for domestic purposes soon…”
Soon… note the use of the word “soon”… as in, “just in time to screw w/ the November elections…”
Does this mean KKKarl will be “rejoining” the Admin soon?
April 24th, 2008 at 10:43 am#61 misshusseinmolly Says:
Dim Wit is correct that just about all we say here could be called “spin”. However, there is a big difference in the kind of debate spin employed here and the twisted pretzel logic coming out of the Clinton machine.
Good Morning MissMolly..
April 24th, 2008 at 10:46 amWell said, and perfectly flawless…
No he didn’t mention it. He chose to ignore it as if it hasn’t been plastered on the news for the last 3 weeks.
per missmolly,
what Bilbo says is spin. But since its pro-Obama spin, everyone conveniently ignores it. Its hypocritical and it pisses me off.
The fact is certain primaries remain and it is not our right to dictate who should step down. Considering NC and IN will likely go to Obama, strengthening his position, why is there this fear of the democracy we all claim to believe in?
April 24th, 2008 at 10:47 amDim Wit — I live in North Carolina. We always have our primary late in the game, and this is the first year since I moved here that I actually have a choice in the Democratic presidential primary. I don’t feel that my vote doesn’t count. I HAVE felt my vote hasn’t counted every other year when the Democratic candidate was chosen before the NC primary. Even though North Carolina isn’t the biggest state in the country, I still feel my vote is worth something this year, even if by itself it carries all the weight of a single snowflake in an avalanche.
I never claimed that you said Hillary deserves the nomination because she “won” Pennsylvania. I said that you were following that line of spin. Hillary got an edge of about 200,000 popular votes and an edge of 15 delegates from that contest. While I won’t say it’s “nothing” as Bilbo did, it’s not the earth-shaking event you’re making it out to be, either.
And your last paragraph is truly bizarre. Yes, I feel that spin is OK in its place (like this forum) as long as it’s kept to thoughtful opinion and facts backed up with evidence — in other words, the spin one generally employs for debate purposes. We all do this here. Where I have a problem with spin is when facts get twisted so creatively it makes a reasonable person go “huh?”, or when outright lies are told.
I don’t believe I ever claimed that my “spin” was OK while condemning everyone else’s. I think my record of respect and civility posting here stands for itself. And how did you get “ethnocentrically biased” out of anything I said? Do you really think my thoughts come from some ethnocentric position, or did that word just pop up today on your Word-A-Day calendar?
April 24th, 2008 at 10:58 amsatirev Says
April 24th, 2008 at 10:49 am
Wake up and connect the dots, people – before it’s too late.
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Veritas, is that you? It’s good to see you here! Please try to pop in a bit more often — I miss your posts.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:08 amrecent AP – Europe news headline:
The surge is working again.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:17 amSenior U.S. officials are expected to tell lawmakers that “a video taken inside a secret Syrian facility last summer convinced the Israeli government and the Bush administration that North Korea was helping to construct a reactor similar to one that produces plutonium for North Korea’s nuclear arsenal.”
Was that ‘video’ destroyed as well???
April 24th, 2008 at 11:21 amIf the polls are anywhere near correct, Obama is going to come out of North Carolina with a 15 – 17 delegate advantage, more than offsetting Clinton’s win in PA.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:23 amThe fact is certain primaries remain and it is not our right to dictate who should step down. Considering NC and IN will likely go to Obama, strengthening his position, why is there this fear of the democracy we all claim to believe in?
Sorry I’ve tried to stay out of this DimWit but you are missing the point. It’s not about denying anyone anything. It’s about ensuring that a Repugnicunt doesn’t get to do more damage to our country. And Hillary by her words and actions is helping to make it that much harder for a Dem to take the oval office come Nov.
She can’t win and she will remain w/ less popular votes and less pledged delegates when All of the Remaining Primaries are held. She would need to “win” these remaining primaries by a margin close to 80% and as Pa has just shown she CAN”T do that. So she will remain behind.
Do to that unpopular truth she is trying to convince the SuperDelegates to GIVE her the nomination! And thereby DESTROY the party.
So she is staying in the race and helping to Weaken the party in the mean time.
The Democratic primaries are not like the Republican primaries but you will notice that there was a common theme between both of them till now. That being when it became clear that a candidate had no chance to secure the nomination, they bowed out Gracefully, living to fight another day. Hillary by her own words and deeds is making that very difficult and if she was really interested in what’s best for this country and our party, she would stop this madness and work to defeat the Repugs instead of acting and speaking as if it would be better to have McInsane than Obama.
April 24th, 2008 at 12:24 pmracism: discrimination on the basis of race
Are black Obama voters being unintentionally racist when they support Barrack?
I watched the exit polling from the Penn primary. The breakdown among different demographics (Jewish, women, Catholic, union, young, seniors, etc.) were interesting and generally well within about 60-40 splits. Except the black vote. 90% plus black people voted for Obama. That is apparently relatively typical in recent primaries.
I try to imagine the reaction if over 90% of white people voted for the white candidate over the black candidate. Wouldn’t people question that mindset as less than enlightened?
I’ve also seen man on the street interviews, in which black people express that they support Obama, because ‘he’s black’ or ‘it’s time for a black president.’
I try to imagine the reaction, if a white person said they were voting for McCain or Clinton because ‘they’re white’.
I like Obama, but are black people being unintentionally racist in their overwelming support of Obama?
Clinton and Obama are both Democrats and share very similar views on policy. Is it really reasonable to attribute the overwelming black support (10-1)on anything other than race? Is that okay, or should that sentiment be reasonably examined?
April 24th, 2008 at 1:26 pmMissmolly,
I don’t what to say regarding your vote. How you could think it counts when it doesn’t matter is beyond me. However, this year it actually does count and by placing your vote you get to help choose who becomes the nominee.
I am not following a line of spin. I am recognizing the fact that even though the reality of the situation is that she can’t win (by delegates alone), more people in Pennsylvania chose to vote for her over Obama. Why do you, radicalright, and bilbo choose to ignore this? Don’t you think it means something if voters are willfully choosing to make an illogical decision. Obama out spent Clinton by something like three-to-one, yet he still couldn’t finish the job.
Yes, I do think your comments are biased.
I disagree. Look at what I said above. Whether anyone on this site chooses to accept reality or not, there are people who want to vote for Clinton.
Also, check this out:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/105691/McCain-vs-Obama-28-Clinton-Backers-McCain.aspx
If Obama wins, 28% of Clinton supporters go for McCain
If Clinton wins, 19% of Obama suporters for for McCain
One could say the best way to mitigate our damages would be to have Clinton be the nominee at there would be less loss of democrats to McCain.
Also, my “point” is not entirely about the elections. Its about the blatant hypocrisy shown by many of the people who post on this site. I can make logical arguments and list facts all day long, but they go ignored. I used Missmolly’s own definition of spin to show how Bilbo’s comment was also spin. Does it matter? Nope. Bluedhalia (a fellow liberal) was chased out of here the other day for expressing her opinion. No one cares. And should anyone dare make a pro-Hillary comment they are berated and demeaned.
Is this the unity that we’re seeking as Democrats? If Obama is going to be the nominee, don’t you think we should be courting Hillary’s supporters and not treating them (and their opinions) as is they are part of the problem?
And the truly ironic thing is that Obama himself doesn’t express these characteristics, so I am always at a loss to understand why his followers do.
April 24th, 2008 at 1:40 pmbackup Says
April 24th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
I try to imagine the reaction if over 90% of white people voted for the white candidate over the black candidate. Wouldn’t people question that mindset as less than enlightened?
I’ve also seen man on the street interviews, in which black people express that they support Obama, because ‘he’s black’ or ‘it’s time for a black president.’
I try to imagine the reaction, if a white person said they were voting for McCain or Clinton because ‘they’re white’.
I like Obama, but are black people being unintentionally racist in their overwelming support of Obama?
_________________________________________________
Let me try to put this in some kind of perspective. Are black people being racist by supporting Obama? Would white people be racist if 90% of them supported a white candidate merely because he/she was white?
Pretend for a moment that whites (European Americans) made up about 12.2% of the U.S. population, as African Americans currently do. And pretend that there has never been a white president — that all 43 presidents thus far have been black men. And now a biracial man (half black, half white) is making a legitimate run for the office.
Yes, I can see in that set of circumstances how white people might identify with such a candidate, and more than a few of them would vote for him because of their excitement that a person who is even half white could be elected to the highest office in the land.
When JFK was running in 1960, many Catholics voted for him because they were excited at the prospect of one of their own serving as president. Even AFTER JFK said “I am not the Catholic candidate for President; I am the Democratic candidate for President who happens to be Catholic.”
And yes — if black Americans voted for a black candidate only because he was black, and they did so in great numbers in this hypothetical situation, they would probably be labeled racist.
I don’t see any racism going on here. I also don’t see a double standard, since we are comparing two entirely different situations. If our past presidents had been from an assortment of ethnic backgrounds and races, and if our society didn’t consist of one relatively small minority group having been subjugated by a large majority group for a couple of centuries, THEN a double standard would exist if one group was called racist for allowing race to factor into their decision and the other group wasn’t.
April 24th, 2008 at 1:51 pmmissmolly. That’s a reasonable post. I would also be excited at overcoming what has been a significant barrier for our society. I would love to have a black president. (I would also be excited about the prospect of a woman president BTW). I personally like Barrack and agree with many of his positions.
Although I agree with much of your assessment of the situation, there is a part of me that is uneasy about voting for someone on any basis other than voting record, qualifications, policy, etc.
That being said, it does seem hard to see this race based support as being racist behavior.
April 24th, 2008 at 2:03 pmDimWit, you continue to miss the point. I’ll try again. The point is SHE CAN”T WIN!
And everthing she is doing now only prolongs the inevitable, SHE CAN”T WIN!
Her campaign is broke, she continues to tear down Obama and build up McInsane, and inturn erode the party. In light of the FACT that SHE CAN”T WIN She is asking the SD’s to GIVE her the nominiation which will most assuredly DESTROY the Party.
As to your stats. of her supporters not being willing to support Obama if he gets the nom. and vice/versa, you are proving my point that she is Destroying the party. The insanity that anyone that’s lived through the last 7 years and would be willing to put McInsane ahead of either Dem if their Dem isn’t the nominee, is NUTZ And it is the responsibility of Clinton or Obama, (if he was the obvious loser at this point), to do absolutely everything in their power to deliver their supporters to the other candidate. I am pretty confident that Obama would do just that but from all I’ve witnessed of the Clinton campaign, I’m not convinced that she would. And That is the problem.
April 24th, 2008 at 2:04 pmdim wit Says
April 24th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
I am recognizing the fact that even though the reality of the situation is that she can’t win (by delegates alone), more people in Pennsylvania chose to vote for her over Obama. Why do you, radicalright, and bilbo choose to ignore this? Don’t you think it means something if voters are willfully choosing to make an illogical decision. Obama out spent Clinton by something like three-to-one, yet he still couldn’t finish the job.
_____________________________________________
I am not ignoring Pennsylvania, and I’m not trying to say Clinton didn’t do well there. But you seem to be saying that because more Democrats chose Clinton over Obama in Pennsylvania, she would make a better nominee, and that Obama has somehow failed because he “couldn’t finish the job”.
Using this logic, Hillary “couldn’t finish the job” in Iowa, Nevada, South Carolina, Alaska, Idaho, North Dakota, Delaware, Utah, Kansas, Connecticut, Alabama, Colorado, Minnesota, Georgia, Illinois (although admittedly that IS Obama’s home state), Nebraska, Louisiana, Washington, Maine, Maryland, Virginia, Hawaii, Wisconsin, Vermont, Wyoming and Mississippi — all states awarding Obama more delegates than Clinton.
The party nominee is not chosen solely based on what the voters in Pennsylvania think. Or California. Or Illinois. Or Alabama. It’s decided by total delegates. Why you think Pennsylvania represents some sort of special watershed is beyond me.
Let’s look at some of the other points you made.
First, you claim that there are people who want to vote for Clinton. I never claimed there weren’t, and I haven’t seen anyone else here claim that, either.
Second, you claim that because there are more Clinton supporters who will vote for McCain if Obama gets nominated, than there are Obama supporters who will vote for McCain if Clinton gets nominated, then Clinton should be nominated. Balderdash. Right now, emotions are running high, and there is probably more bad feeling toward Obama in the Clinton camp than vice versa. However, a lot of that will change between now and November — especially once the media shine more spotlight on McCain. The polls you cite are pretty meaningless at this point in the ballgame, as they WILL change.
Third, you accuse us of being hypocrites because we express opinions. Yes, I agree that expressing an opinion with the intent of swaying the minds of others constitutes “spin” (as any sales pitch does), but until it reaches the point of outright lies or definite intent to mislead others into believing something that isn’t true, I don’t see it as a bad thing.
Fourth, you claim that Bluedahlia was “chased out of here” for expressing her opinion. Wrong. Bluedahlia stomped off in a huff because she criticized TP’s decision to remove an obvious spam post and she was miffed because most of us wouldn’t join her in condemning that act, for which she blasted all of us as hypocrites (hypocrites? really? for hating spam?). It had nothing to do with pro- or anti-Hillary comments. In fact, I expressed regret that she chose to leave, which I would have done even if it WAS over a pro-Hillary comment. I can’t speak for all posters here at TP, but I regard all respectful comments as welcome — just not those that stoop to name-calling other posters on a personal level, posts that serve no purpose except to drag a thread off-topic, or troll posts that are purely incendiary.
Methinks you are painting us all with a broad brush.
April 24th, 2008 at 2:25 pmHillary Clinton at one point would have gotten an honest vote from me as ‘the candidate that I didn’t favor in the primary but still a candidate I’d vote for in the general’ (I would have voted for Kucinich), but then she went all GOP on her primary run against Obama. Now, she gets my ‘meh’ vote — the ‘There is no way in H3LL I’d vote for McCain, but believe me, come next primary, we’re getting her the fv(k out of office’ vote.
Hillary needs to concede, yes. Yes, she can continue to run, it’s her right to, but if come Fall we end up with McCain because she gave him half a year of unopposed general campaigning time, then don’t be surprised if she becomes a pariah of the party, and sure the hell don’t complain about it.
<— Another voter who wishes that Hillary would acknowledge that all she can do is draw the nomination and short of the Super-Delegates giving her the win over the popular vote and normal delegate count, she won’t get the nomination.
April 24th, 2008 at 2:26 pmdimwit – This is particularly true for Hillary Clinton supporters, more than a quarter of whom currently say they would vote for McCain if Barack Obama is the Democratic nominee.
If Obama wins, 28% of Clinton supporters go for McCain
whodda thunk so many dems were racists…
April 24th, 2008 at 2:29 pmbackup Says
April 24th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Although I agree with much of your assessment of the situation, there is a part of me that is uneasy about voting for someone on any basis other than voting record, qualifications, policy, etc.
______________________________________________
On that point, we agree. I would love to see a woman president, a non-white president, or even a non-white woman president — IF it’s a person I would want for president no matter what race/sex he/she was.
As a registered Democrat whose primary is coming up in a week and a half, I have a choice between a white woman and a biracial man for the nominee of my party. Their policy positions are similar on most issues. I am basing my vote on the few differences in their policies, on their experience, and on their character. Race and sex come way, way down on the list — as it should be. But no matter which of them gets nominated, it will mean the first non-white or the first woman will head a major party ticket, and I will take some pride in that.
Come the general election, I will vote for the Democratic nominee no matter who it is. And it has nothing to do with race or sex. It has everything to do with a Republican nominee who wants to continue on the disastrous course of the last eight years.
April 24th, 2008 at 2:34 pmAnd should anyone dare make a pro-Hillary comment they are berated and demeaned.
i have NEVER seen that… but i have seen, and been on the receiving end of, plenty of obnoxious and even downright ugly hostile comments from the
hillary “supporters”… yourself included, dimwit…
what i have seen is plenty of criticism of hillary and her campaign – and if her
April 24th, 2008 at 2:37 pmtactics DON”T piss you off – as ROVIAN tactics have always pissed you off before – then YOU, the hillary “supporter” are the hypocrit…
.
I think for the most part Clinton staying in hurts the party. But, I think both democrats (Obama and Clinton) have benefitted by the tough contest. Hillary (with the exception of the oblitirate comment) has really hit a stride.
As someone who is predisposed to McCain, I’m am very curious how he will fare against either Obama or Clinton; just in terms of campaigning. They are both being tested (exercised) rigorously. I’m not confident McCain will be as prepared when it comes to campaigning (and especially the debates) in the upcoming general.
I think democrats should let them both run. But, suck it up and back whoever wins in August.
April 24th, 2008 at 2:38 pmI heard an interesting point on the news the other night. The longer this primary is drawn out, the more likely a combined ticket (Clinton/Obama or Obama/Clinton) becomes.
I’m curious of the posters here: If you knew the ticket would be combined, but didn’t know who was on top, would you likely support the ticket?
April 24th, 2008 at 2:44 pmbackup Says
April 24th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
I’m curious of the posters here: If you knew the ticket would be combined, but didn’t know who was on top, would you likely support the ticket?
_____________________________________________
You bet I would. After all, look what the GOP is putting up as an alternative.
I have also heard all the talk about a combined ticket, and I think most of it is hype generated by the MSM. Obama certainly hasn’t been openly entertaining the idea, and Hillary once briefly floated out the possibility.
But it’s not unheard of. Lyndon Johnson made a late effort for the nomination in 1960, and JFK wound up putting him in the #2 slot to round out the ticket so it would appeal to more voters.
LBJ and JFK didn’t like each other very much, but Kennedy said it was “better LBJ be in the tent p!ssing out, than outside the tent p!ssing in.” Clinton and Obama aren’t all that fond of each other, either, but whichever one of them gets the nomination may feel the same way. So it could happen.
April 24th, 2008 at 2:57 pmwhat missmilly said, at 2:34 pm (and elsewhere)
and, yes, backup:
OVERWHELMING DEMOCRATIC VOTER TURNOUT.
THEY CAN’T STEAL IT IF IT’S NOT CLOSE.
.
this will be the LAST CHANCE to SAVE THE COUNTRY.
as we know it… knew it… what it was supposed to be…
April 24th, 2008 at 3:22 pm.
missmolly.
I think it becomes more likely, when the winning camp contemplates losing significant support from the other camp.
You seem to have reasonable support for the democrat party, regardless of the nominee.
I get the idea that there are others that are not that loyal (or practical), at least at this point.
Many republicans had/have problems with McCain, but you get the sense they support him for practical reasons. Maybe, after the dust settles, democrats will also fall in line.
April 24th, 2008 at 3:22 pmmissmolly,
You twist my words.
-Despite your insinuation, I never said she would make a better nominee.
-I’m not holding Pennsylvania up as some sort of “special watershed.” I’m using it to make a factual point, which you seem to be missing. The reason I use Penn is that it is, at this point in time, the last state to have actually voted.
-you note:
read what I wrote. I did note state this.
you also note:
again read what I wrote. I specifically used language which was not codemning everyone. Then read katy’s post at 88. Whats your opinion of that? Do you really believe all of these people are racists? Talk about “painting with a broad brush.” However, she will never be criticized for making what is a nothing more than a highly opinionized and entirely baseless comment.
I know you’ve read my posts in the past and I am positive you know I am not a Hillary supporter, so I am at a loss to explain why you knowingly post comments which you know are false.
I can say I strongly agree with you on one point:
April 24th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
dim wit Says
April 24th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
missmolly,
You twist my words.
___________________________________________
I admit that we’ve been talking in circles about many things we are mostly in agreement on, and whatever points were made originally seem to have gotten lost in the shuffle.
So I went back through the thread to see what I could reconstruct.
I believe Bilbo started off in Post #25, when he criticized Hillary’s creative spinning of the popular vote totals.
You responded to him in Post #34 with two points: 1) that Hillary beat Obama in Pennsylvania, and that Bilbo should have mentioned that, and 2) that Bilbo “spins” too.
Then Bilbo responded in Posts #36 and #40 that he didn’t mention the PA primary because (in his words) “it meant nothing” — which I took to mean that the results weren’t significant enough to change Hillary’s situation, and which you took to mean (by your response in Post #55) that Bilbo was dissing all the PA voters, as well as voters in states with primaries to come.
That was when I came in.
I’m still not sure what the original point was, since it appears several were made. But it sounds like you would like A) voters’ wishes to be respected and valued, no matter what state they are in, B) posts that are more objective and less skewed toward a narrow agenda, regardless of what that agenda is, and C) Democrats to come together and defeat the GOP in November.
I could still be missing the point, but it’s getting late, and I have very few operating brain cells left.
April 24th, 2008 at 5:02 pmDim Wit at it again:
Second, I don’t think Hillary deserves the nomination, but I also find it increasingly disturbing that certain people on this site who laud freedom and democracy and who openly criticize Bush and his friends for suppressing democracy, are so willing to take away the vote of those people who have yet to vote.
You know Dim Wit, I live in Oregon and I can’t remember the last time my vote counted. The Democratic nomination is usually locked up long before now. That’s just the way the game is played.
I am not saying we deny people the right to vote. I am saying we get to work on defeating John McBush. Since Hillary has virtually NO chance of getting the nomination short of Obama imploding, why doesn’t she do what Romney did. Why doesn’t she “suspend” her campaign so she can be there waiting if Obama implodes?
The problem with Hillary is that she doesn’t care what is best for the Democratic party or what is best for the country. She just cares what is best for her.
April 24th, 2008 at 5:18 pmdim wit Says
April 24th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
I am recognizing the fact that even though the reality of the situation is that she can’t win (by delegates alone), more people in Pennsylvania chose to vote for her over Obama. Why do you, radicalright, and bilbo choose to ignore this? Don’t you think it means something if voters are willfully choosing to make an illogical decision. Obama out spent Clinton by something like three-to-one, yet he still couldn’t finish the job.
Why do you keep saying that I choose to ignore the fact that the people of PA chose Clinton. So what? What difference did it make? She got 9 more delegates than Obama. That does not help her in any way get to where she wants to be.
I have a question for you. Clinton entered this race 25-30% points ahead of Obama. She had it all…name recognition, wife of ex president, Democratic party boss backing, first woman to run for President. Obama had pretty much nothing. And why is it that Clinton hasn’t “closed the deal”.
The reason why Obama has had to outspend Clinton is because he has had to introduce himself to the voters in the states where he was running. They already knew Clinton.
Here’s another question. Why does Obama have 1.5 million people who donate to his campaign on a regular basis giving him a huge financial edge over Clinton. With all her advantages, why isn’t she getting more campaign contributions than he does?
April 24th, 2008 at 5:31 pmwhat Bilbo says is spin. But since its pro-Obama spin, everyone conveniently ignores it. Its hypocritical and it pisses me off.
So Dim Wit, care to tell me what I have said on this thread is spin? I assume you were referring to Missmolly’s “1) highlight only those facts that enhance your message and ignore the facts that don’t”. So I must assume that you think I was spinning because I didn’t mention Clinton’s PA win. Since her PA win had absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying, I fail to see how I was ignoring facts that didn’t enhance my message. I was talking about how Hillary was saying “I won more popular votes”, and since the PA vote had nothing to do with this line of Hillary’s thinking, not including it in my post had nothing to do with spin.
Why don’t you go back to my original post again and tell me what in it was spin and tell me why it was spin.
April 24th, 2008 at 5:39 pmKaty said:
But it’s not unheard of. Lyndon Johnson made a late effort for the nomination in 1960, and JFK wound up putting him in the #2 slot to round out the ticket so it would appeal to more voters.
But look what happened to JFK. I already fear for Obama’s life (lax Secret Service people, too many lunatics, etc.). I am not insinuating that Clinton would be responsible (before someone jumps on me). The whole comparing Obama to JFK makes for a very uncomfortable reference.
April 24th, 2008 at 6:46 pm