Pence Derides Torture Critics As Advocating ‘Oprah Winfrey Methods’
Pence Derides Torture Critics As Advocating ‘Oprah Winfrey Methods’
Yesterday, the House Subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil Rights, and Civil Liberties held a hearing on the Bush administration’s use of torture. During the hearing, Rep. Mike Pence (R-IN) scoffed at what he called the “Oprah Winfrey methods” of interrogations built on long-established relationships — the same method used to successfully interrogate Saddam Hussein. He also seemed to defend waterboarding Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, a 9/11 mastermind:
Some have said relationship-building interrogation techniques are preferable and even more reliable in the long run than stress methods. … I can tell by your grin that you acknowledge the somewhat absurd thought that you could move people who have masterminded the death of 3,000 Americans by Oprah Winfrey methods.
International lawyer Philippe Sands, who recently published a book on Bush’s interrogation program, replied by stating simply, “Coercion doesn’t work.” He cited the British fight against the IRA, and said the use of torture “extended the conflict” by 15 to 20 years:
The thinking in the British military and the thinking across the board politically — it’s really not a left right issue, it is a broad consensus in the United Kingdom — is that coercion doesn’t work. That the experience of the United Kingdom, which moved in the early 1970’s to use techniques that were very similar to those that were used on Detainee 063, putting stress positions, humiliation, and so on and so forth, didn’t not work. The view is taken in the United Kingdom that it extended the conflict with the IRA probably by between 15 and 20 years.
Watch it:
Sands also rejected the term “war on terror,” which he said “transform[s] criminals into warriors.” He said by using such language, “you create a context in which they are able to recruit in their struggle.” Despite some attempts in 2005 to shift away from the term, President Bush has maintained his determination to call the fight a “war on terror.” Britain dropped the terminology language in December.
Though the right wing refuses to believe that torture does not work, experts agree with Sands’s assessment. As Gen. David Petraeus said clearly last year, “Certainly, extreme physical action can make someone ‘talk;’ however, what the individual says may be of questionable value.”
Transcript:
REP. MIKE PENCE (R-IN): Some have said relationship-building interrogation techniques are preferable and even more reliable in the long run than stress methods. They raise the question though, what about the hard cases? Like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who was a mastermind of this a September 11 attacks in this country. How would you respond to the observation that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed probably is not susceptible to relationship-building methods? I can tell by your grin that you acknowledge the somewhat absurd thought that you could move people who have masterminded the death of 3,000 Americans by Oprah Winfrey methods. How would you have sought, how do you think the United States should seek to gain information from a mastermind like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed if he refuses to answer questions voluntarily, when additional American lives could be on the line with information that he is refusing to provide?
PHILLIPE SANDS: Thank you, sir. I very much appreciate that question. That question seems to go to the heart of many of the issues we’re discussing. I’m not sure how thrilled Oprah Winfrey would be to the characterization of her method in that way. I think I’ve got to say by way of outset, I come from a country which spent 15 years involved in facing terrorism on the streets. I grew up in a country where my mother wouldn’t let me go shopping on Oxford Street because bombs were going off at times on a weekly basis. That experience has had a very profound effect on how the United Kingdom addresses precisely the question you have addressed. The thinking in the British military and the thinking across the board politically — it’s is really not a left right issue, it is a broad consensus in the United Kingdom — is that coercion doesn’t work. That the experience of the United Kingdom, which moved in the early 1970’s to use techniques that were very similar to those that were used on Detainee 063, putting stress positions, humiliation, and so on and so forth, didn’t not work. The view is taken in the united Kingdom that it extended the conflict with the IRA probably by between 15 and 20 years. Because what it did was that it outraged the community that was associated with those who were subject to these particular techniques. It created a breeding ground, a recruiting ground which made it impossible for the British government to persuade those who were associated with the IRA but had not crossed the line into the use of violence into thinking in another way. And so, in answering your question, I am profoundly influenced by that experience. One of the great regrets that I have is that the administration never seemed to turn for advice to its closest allies, and to ask them, What was your experience when you faced a similar situation? The answer they would have gotten from whatever government it was, Conservative or Labour, is, Don’ t go down the route of using coercion and don’ t call it a “war on terror.” Why? Because by calling it a “war on terror” you transform criminals into warriors. And you create a context in which they are able to recruit in their struggle. If you notice, neither Prime Minister Blair nor Prime Minister Brown, nor any Conservative leader of the opposition, ever uses the phrase “war on terror,” because of the experience with the IRA.
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Uh oh, he took the name of Oprah in vain. Repent, Pence.
May 7th, 2008 at 8:00 pmI’d rather have Oprah interrogations than Jack Bauer interrogations.
May 7th, 2008 at 8:02 pmMuch less likely to violate the Geneva Conventions when you’re GIVING EVERYBODY A CAR!!!!!!!!
Sands also rejected the term “war on terror,” which he said “transform[s] criminals into warriors.”
That bears to be repeated, over and over again, until people get this into their thick skulls.
May 7th, 2008 at 8:03 pmSands also rejected the term “war on terror,” which he said “transform[s] criminals into warriors.”
>Sands also rejected the term “war on terror,” which he >said “transform[s] criminals into warriors.”
Smart man…then again, the people who sell bombs probably need to find someone to drop them on, even when none currently exist..
May 7th, 2008 at 8:03 pmrobbez_92107 Says:
I’d rather have Oprah interrogations than Jack Bauer interrogations.
Much less likely to violate the Geneva Conventions when you’re GIVING EVERYBODY A CAR!!!!!!!!
And you don’t lose your toenails, or get pneumonia from the daily swimming board lessons.
May 7th, 2008 at 8:06 pmAnyone who believes torture is effective and a reliable method to use in conflict needs to read this article.
Read the whole thing, but here are some excerpts:
After the Marine major’s report was issued in 1943:
May 7th, 2008 at 8:06 pm>I’d rather have Oprah interrogations
You want to talk to someone whose acting like Ophrah, look at General Betrayus? “Oh Hi Mr. Insurgents with American Blood on Your Hands, why dont you have this nice Car, with a trunk full of 100$ bills, and then you can stop shooting at us an we can be friends…”
I like the Betrayus moniker but its getting a bit stale, I think I’m going to start calling him General Ophrayus
May 7th, 2008 at 8:07 pmPence gets a boner for torture. It’s the only way…
May 7th, 2008 at 8:09 pmWill rhf speak on Limbaugh about this interpretation of a chief Obamabothopiumaddict? -TARD!
May 7th, 2008 at 8:09 pmWhat is so disturbing is how desperately the NeoCons cling to “common sense” as their guiding principle.
May 7th, 2008 at 8:16 pmRegardless of what experience, science, etc. actually reveals about the world around us, “common sense” is the lens that the NeoCon continues to use to filter their worldview.
Be it Climate Change, the Economy, Torture, the War in Iraq, the Media, etc., “common sense” continues to guide the NeoCon further and further from reality and those, like our friend Mr. Sands, who have the audacity to point out that the truth differs from the “common sense” are ridiculed as biased, rabid, or merely ridiculous while the evidence (and bodies) continues to mount…
McWars Says:
Will rhf speak on Limbaugh about this interpretation of a chief Obamabothopiumaddict? -TARD!
May 7th, 2008 at 8:09 pm
I hope so, rhf is very entertaining these days. ;)
May 7th, 2008 at 8:17 pmPence was the guy on the trip to Bagdad with McCain when they walked ’safely’ through a town market, ilustrating how secure that environment was. Assisted only with a regiment, overhead choppers and waay more body armor than our troops generally get.
May 7th, 2008 at 8:23 pmDarn right, Zooey!
George McGovern has me in the mood to drop TP as a full-time place to comment and defect to THE ZOO!
May 7th, 2008 at 8:24 pmPelosi doesn’t mind if Clinton remains in the race.
http://www.abcnews.go.com/ Politics/ Story?id=4808016&page=2
May 7th, 2008 at 8:26 pmMcWars Says:
Darn right, Zooey!
George McGovern has me in the mood to drop TP as a full-time place to comment and defect to THE ZOO!
May 7th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
Yay!
May 7th, 2008 at 8:31 pmMcWars…come by my place, too!
Everyone is invited!
May 7th, 2008 at 8:33 pmMs_Joanne Says:
McWars…come by my place, too!
Everyone is invited!
May 7th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
You excel at the blogwhore thing, MizzJ. ;)
May 7th, 2008 at 8:38 pmThis pathetic twit thinks he’s going to graduate to Lugar’s seat and then the White House. Too bad for him the conservative era’s over . . .
May 7th, 2008 at 8:41 pmZooey, heh. I am working on becoming a better whore. ;-)
May 7th, 2008 at 8:45 pmMizzJ, I recommend practice, practice, practice. ;)
May 7th, 2008 at 8:50 pmThere is but one difference between torture in an authoritarian state and torture in a totalitarian one. In the latter state, they are at pains to leave enduring reminders of the power of the state written into the bodies of its victims; former, they are at pains to disguise them, to privatize them, to personalize them.
May 7th, 2008 at 8:51 pmA State which can claim it may torture, with impunity, it’s opponents and antagonists can do anything to anyone.
I’ve heard that, Z. :-D
May 7th, 2008 at 8:51 pmBTW, has anyone ever watched Oprah
May 7th, 2008 at 8:52 pminterrogatinginterviewing a guest? She’s gets everything, baby, even the tears.Well, what do you expect? Mr. Mike Pence is a “Republican” and Republicans in the 21st century are about 97% total morons…
May 7th, 2008 at 8:54 pmIs there still a charge if it is just practice?
May 7th, 2008 at 9:08 pmDb, heh!
May 7th, 2008 at 9:15 pmdbadass, it’s a sliding scale. ;)
May 7th, 2008 at 9:17 pmOoooh…sliding scale!
May 7th, 2008 at 9:21 pmWar, death, and torture are all viagra for these rich white guys. Funny how he used a black woman to vilify rational accepted policy to defend his love of Nazi tactics. These guys have a real problem with peace and women and anyone who doesn’t look just like them. Next argument please, you lose.
May 7th, 2008 at 9:21 pmIt’s all about the neocons!
May 7th, 2008 at 9:23 pmIt doesn’t matter what’s real to Pence. His opinion is worth about a tuppence. In his parallel universe, the market in Baghdad was like an Indiana farmer’s market.
May 7th, 2008 at 9:35 pmI guess I should stay away from Indiana if that’s the case.
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is not the mastermind of 9/11. He is the alledged mastermind after a “confession” under waterboarding. The tapes of this “confession” were destroyed by the CIA. Because of my exsperience as a South American citizen, I do not trust the CIA. A “cofession” obtained by coertion, by torture is not admited in a REAL court of law. Plus there is also too any evidence that 9/11 was an inside job, of a cover up (no footage of a 757 hitting the Pentagon; 1o seconds total collapse in similar and simetric fashion, etc), and a rush to point Mr. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed as the mastermind of 9/11 by this criminal administration, who has yet to unswer many questions about 9/11, under Oath! …and by the way, under waterboarding (drowning torture, its real name) I’ll sign a paper say I discovered America!
May 7th, 2008 at 9:51 pmKhalid Sheikh Mohammed is not the mastermind of 9/11. He is the alledged mastermind after a “confession” under waterboarding. The tapes of this “confession” were destroyed by the CIA. Because of my exsperience as a South American citizen, I do not trust the CIA. A “cofession” obtained by coertion, by torture is not admited in a REAL court of law. Plus there is also too many evidence that 9/11 was an inside job, of a cover up (no footage of a 757 hitting the Pentagon; 1o seconds total collapse in similar and simetric fashion, etc), and a rush to point Mr. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed as the mastermind of 9/11 by this criminal administration, who has yet to unswer many questions about 9/11, under Oath! …and by the way, under waterboarding (drowning torture, its real name) I’ll sign a paper saying I discovered America!
sorry about spelling mistakes!
May 7th, 2008 at 9:54 pm.
R E M E M B E R:
THEY(sic) HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOMS…
And so THEY(sic) defend and argue the merits to undermining those very FREEDOMS they hate.
FREEDOM #8: Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
.
May 8th, 2008 at 12:54 amVery good points, sacopenapa (although I don’t think 9/11 was an inside job. The Bush administration isn’t clever enough to do that) and belac.
“Common sense” is very often an euphemism for “I cannot find support for my argument, but I won’t change my mind no matter how good your reasoning is”.
What I find insane is the argument used by some in the Bush administration that “we cannot reveal what we are doing, because the enemy would teach their supporters to resist the techniques”. What a load of crap! Try to learn to suppress your fear of drowning or your fear of death or fear of pain or even discomfort.
Sorry, doesn’t work.
Or maybe we could “protect” the key personnel in the adminstration by going through with this training just in case they are captured ;0)
May 8th, 2008 at 1:03 am.
Hummmmmzzz…
Eggs laid eventually hatch and then the chickens come home to roost.
A continued occupation, aggressive or otherwise, are eggs laid. Insurgent activity hatches extremist groups that end up hating America and thus, seek ways to come back to roost. 9/11 is just one of those events. So has the USS COLE and other US Military facilities that have been used as targets.
Is this why America hates it’s own truth and proceeds to take that anger out on a preacher?
.
May 8th, 2008 at 1:19 am#35 Lusmu Says:
So, when War Criminal, George W. Bush, and his criminal cronies happily admitted, publicly, that they will use TORTURE(aka “Harsh inTERRORgation”), specifically “water torture”(aka
surfboarding,wake-boarding,water-skiing,water-works… waterboarding[a sport-Y sounding word]), at their leisure and “when necessary”(to commit another criminal offense), that they weren’t giving the heads up to the “TERRORISTS” to, “Train up”?.
May 8th, 2008 at 1:33 amMax-1:
As I said: Insane.
May 8th, 2008 at 2:20 amLusmu:
I thought it to be more “Gump-ish”
May 8th, 2008 at 2:46 am“Stupid is as stupid does…”
35 Lusmu
Thanks for presenting your argument so politely! I respect your opinion on 9/11. It is just too much to think of a steel and concrete structure coming down in free fall speed, less than 10 seconds, simetrically and in similar fashion, including WTC7. The concrete was pulverized, which suggests ‘controlled demolition’… you probably know all the argument. Just appreciate discussing the issue without loosing mutal respect! Many thanks!
May 8th, 2008 at 7:01 amMost people are operating under the assumption that we were in fact attacked by Muslim extremists on 9-11. Not the case. It was an inside job, and if you check out section two of this movie, it does the best most definitive job of repudiating the official explanation. All these debates about Islam, torture, Afghanistan, Iraq, are all mute points.
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
May 8th, 2008 at 12:13 pm