In Speech Before Israeli Parliament, Bush Compares Democrats To Nazi-Appeasers
In Speech Before Israeli Parliament, Bush Compares Democrats To Nazi-Appeasers
While delivering an address before the Israeli parliament commemorating the 60th anniversary of Israel, President Bush said that Sen. Barack Obama and Democrats favor a policy of appeasement toward terrorists. CNN reports that Bush was comparing Obama to “other U.S. leaders back in the run-up to World War II who appeased the Nazis.”
In his speech, Bush said, “As Nazi tanks crossed into Poland in 1939, an American senator declared: ‘Lord, if only I could have talked to Hitler, all of this might have been avoided.’ We have an obligation to call this what it is – the false comfort of appeasement, which has been repeatedly discredited by history.”
CNN’s Ed Henry reported that, while “President Bush never uttered the words Barack Obama,” his White House sources tell him it was clearly intended to be a partisan shot:
White House aides are acknowledging that this was a reference to the fact that Sen. Obama and other Democrats have publicly said that it would be ok for the U.S. President to meet with leaders like the Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmedinejad.
Watch it:
President Bush may want to take up his head-in-the-sand views with his own Defense Secretary. Just yesterday, Robert Gates said the U.S. needs to “sit down and talk with” Iran:
“We need to figure out a way to develop some leverage…and then sit down and talk with them,” Gates said. “If there is going to be a discussion, then they need something, too. We can’t go to a discussion and be completely the demander, with them not feeling that they need anything from us.”
Bush’s cross-continental partisan assault upends the traditional notion that U.S. politics should stop “at the water’s edge.” Reacting to Bush’s comments, Obama issued this statement: “It is sad that President Bush would use a speech to the Knesset on the 60th anniversary of Israel’s independence to launch a false political attack. It is time to turn the page on eight years of policies that have strengthened Iran and failed to secure America or our ally Israel.”
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President Cockroach skitters out of the dark momentarily.
May 15th, 2008 at 9:27 amHe must really hate his grandfather.
May 15th, 2008 at 9:28 amMaybe Dubya gets to have his third term as president........... of Israel
May 15th, 2008 at 9:32 amYou mean isolationist Republican Senator and Republican National Committee member from Idaho William Borah?
That someone?
May 15th, 2008 at 9:33 amHmmmm
Misleading our nation to invade a country with absolutely no ties to our darkest day (9/11).
Illegally torturing captives.
Secretly monitoring our citizens?
Outing agents who disagree with the government?
No offensive, Dubya, but that's more Nazi like than anything Obama has to offer.
ohhhhh, and I got yer standing ovation, right here!!!!
May 15th, 2008 at 9:34 amHe seems unaware that world terrorism has tripled under his watch.
May 15th, 2008 at 9:34 amThanks for the advice, Gigi, but I've grown to distrust your assessments of what is "excellent" in terms of Dumbya's speeches and/or policy.
George W. Bush -- what a d!ck.
May 15th, 2008 at 9:36 am1. G00D_G0LLY Says:
You should listen to the entire speech. I did so on POTUS ‘08. It was excellent, historic and resulted in several standing ovations.
Plus, he gave up golf to show his solidarity with the troops! Dynamic and courageous! (the standing ovations were the Israelis traditional delight with watching animal acts; a talking baboon. Hell, they gave a checkers-playing chicken 4 standing ovations alone...two for beating the baboon...)
The stupid...it buuuuuuuurrrns!!!
May 15th, 2008 at 9:39 amW...T...F!!!?
Why am I still shocked by this man?
This actually makes its strikingly clear WHY Obama needs to be elected... NOW!
May 15th, 2008 at 9:39 amTalk about calling the 'Kettle Black", this Facsist dubya has done nothing but Illegal and unethical things for the last 2 terms. Can you say "Hangem High".
May 15th, 2008 at 9:40 amPerry logan Says:
He seems unaware that world terrorism has tripled under his watch.
He's unaware of a lot of things, including his own increasing irrelevance.
May 15th, 2008 at 9:40 amI guess he should FIRE RObert Gates then,
At a meeting of the Academy of American Diplomacy yesterday, Defense Secretary Robert Gates said that the U.S. should engage Iran with “a combination of incentives and pressure.” We need to figure out a way to develop some leverage . . . and then sit down and talk with them,” Gates said. He added that the U.S. “can’t go to a discussion and be completely the demander.”
May 15th, 2008 at 9:44 amWhy am I not surprised by his remarks?
Until the Bush 43 misadministration, the US has always maintained contact with potential adversaries. Remember the Washington-Moscow Hotline, which was established at the height of the Cold War?
What an ignorant man!I can't wait for January 20, 2009.
May 15th, 2008 at 9:44 amJanuary 20, 2009
Plan your "End to Tyranny" party now.
May 15th, 2008 at 9:46 amOr in other words
"FU(K THE FASCISTS" party
May 15th, 2008 at 9:47 amIt's funny how this anecdote about the appeasing senator is repeated by rightwing nutholes over and over and they never mention the appeaser was a Republican.
-GSD
May 15th, 2008 at 9:47 amWhich one of his advisors told him of "a U. S. Senator" who lamented not being able to talk to Hitler? And wasn't it lucky that this advisor didn't tell him it was a Republican?
May 15th, 2008 at 9:48 amThis is the word of a moronic leader who is responsible for increased hatred and terrorism toward America and its allies, this is the assinine leader who has a convenient memory of his own family history - not of Nazi "appeasement" but actual collaboration.
May 15th, 2008 at 9:52 amAll former presidents have engaged in discussions and negotiations with our enemies - it is only this stubborn, bellicose, ignorant dolt in the white house who prefers to use force and warfare to make his point.
The American public are on to him (finally) as is the rest of the world - he is seen as a man now who is simply marking time until he leaves (as we all are counting the days) and whose words are not to be taken seriously.
Olbermann had the right advice for Bush: Shut the hell up.
More like
May 15th, 2008 at 9:54 am"This is the word of a moronic despot"
Gee, gigi gets outed yesterday with another screen name and suddently it shows up as it's old self, sputtering crap....
If bush is so against appeasing terrorists, why did he let the bin laden family flee our country after 9-11?
May 15th, 2008 at 9:55 amGOtta watch this video
May 15th, 2008 at 9:57 amhttp://youtube.com/watch?v=d3xlb6_0OEs
BTW, that lame interview where the boy-king tried to equate his giving up golf as a solidarity move toward military families - has beeen exposed as false. Not surprising.
May 15th, 2008 at 9:57 amHe gave up golf when his knees gave out. However, several times AFTER the date he gave as the day he put away his clubs, he was not only seen golfing, but cracked his usual lame jokes with reporters.
Bush: the Potemkin president -- all facade, no substance.
All bushit, all the time.
Alecto, I stand corrected -- yes, he is indeed a despot. A war criminal.
May 15th, 2008 at 9:58 amBobwurst Says:
Gee, gigi gets outed yesterday with another screen name and suddently it shows up as it’s old self, sputtering crap….
This gigi is posting its name in all caps, while the old gigi used lower case. I suspect this is a Pee clone namejacking the old gigi. This one is much less intelligent than the original
May 15th, 2008 at 9:59 amIt's not too late for a double impeachment. I'm all for it.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:05 am"Terrism" and our so-called "enemies" NEVER had a better friend than Dumbya. They're not important to him in any kind of protect-the-country way (snicker), only for scaring the crap out of everybody and for securing vast amounts of dough for him and his friends.
Gawd, if only there was a butt plug for his f'n mouth!\
BU$HLER, you major fu(king assahola, SHUT.T.F. UP.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:07 amImpeach him. Impeach cheney. Congress is appeasing war criminals right here, this century, today - bushcheney. Impeach them. Couple of weeks, they're gone. Imagine, a solution!
May 15th, 2008 at 10:08 amGenghis Chimp, dancing & blithering to the Israelis.
Chimpster, you're irrelevant now; even to your own party.
Get over it, get used to it, or just get out of our way...
May 15th, 2008 at 10:08 amOleHippieChick Says:
"Gawd, if only there was a butt plug for his f’n mouth!\"
Here ya go babe:
http://www.buysextoysonline.com.au/devinn-lanes-mouth-ball-gag-p-1457.html
May 15th, 2008 at 10:09 amsatirev Says:
And we’ll all get tickets to watch the Bush/Hague/War Crimes Trials in 09! Bring it on!
Pay Pe view, gotta pay down the debt you know.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:10 amOne thing you can say for Bush:
He did deliver on his promise to move beyond "politics as usual."
He just didn't tell people the alternative he had in mind was "politics as pure evil."
May 15th, 2008 at 10:10 amDoes anyone else find it ironic that a man whos own grandfather did business with Nazi Germany is accusing others of being appeasers?
May 15th, 2008 at 10:11 amnaturalmystic8 Says:
Does anyone else find it ironic that a man whos own grandfather did business with Nazi Germany is accusing others of being appeasers?
A little PROJECTION ya think?
May 15th, 2008 at 10:12 amI was going to post something logical and incisive. I cannot. I hate the god damned Republicans. They are filth, scum, traitors and indeed little Hitlers. We have got to understand that this is war. The Republiscum are a perversion of every moral value, principle and virtue that there is in this world. Fu*uck the Republicans. Round them up, put them in prison camps, water board them and eliminate the party. There will be no freedom or security for the United States until they are treat as the fascist bastards that they are.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:18 amJMOHR Says:
I was going to post something logical and incisive. I cannot. I hate the god damned Republicans. They are filth, scum, traitors and indeed little Hitlers. We have got to understand that this is war. The Republiscum are a perversion of every moral value, principle and virtue that there is in this world. Fu*uck the Republicans. Round them up, put them in prison camps, water board them and eliminate the party. There will be no freedom or security for the United States until they are treat as the fascist bastards that they are.
CORRECT....THEN HANG ALL THE MUDDFUGGERS
May 15th, 2008 at 10:19 amObama, and ALL the Democrats, need to point out:
1. Bush's GRAMDFATHER laundered Nazi money, and had property seized by the US government for TRADING WITH THE ENEMY.
2. The Bin Ladens were LONG-TIME BUSINESS ASSOCIATES of the Bushes, including financing Nazi Jr.'s failed oil businesses.
3. Bush's Saudi OIL BUDDIES are FINANCING the TERRORISTS.
A Nazi TERRORIST like Bush calling anyone else a Nazi/Terrorist appeaser is just the Nazi calling the Mussolini black...
May 15th, 2008 at 10:20 am__________
GSD Says:
It’s funny how this anecdote about the appeasing senator is repeated by rightwing nutholes over and over and they never mention the appeaser was a Republican.
-GSD
__________
You can't conceive of disagreement between people in the same party?
May 15th, 2008 at 10:28 amBUSH: SHUT THE HELL UP!
your grandpa, PRESCOTT supplied HITLER & NAZI GERMANY with over HALF of their wartime iron....
YOU NEED TO SHUT THE HELL UP YOU GODDAMN TRAITOR!
May 15th, 2008 at 10:29 amWhen was the last time gg had an independent thought. OBL is alive today because of this president. Tell me gg, were you so upset when the next president of the United States stated he wouldn't hesitate in a strategic bombing of AQ in Pakistan if Pakistan wouldn't do the job? So what's it going to be, is Obama an appeaser because he'll talk to other countries that aren't in our inner circle or is he the war monger willing to attack those who have attacked us?
May 15th, 2008 at 10:31 amJMOHR,
It is hard sometimes to suppress the loathing for the carrion eating buzzards and post something incisive, or at least make a point with sarcasm.
They truly are to be despised.
President Obama is the best chance we have to show the world that we are better than the fcking scum that has represented us for the last 7 years. First act of President Obama should be to apologize to the world for the criminal acts of Bush and say that a democracy isn't perfect and can make mistakes.
Twice.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:33 amupright left, don't you find it to be spineless not to mention the party in which this "Nazi appeaser" is belonging to? And if GWB is going to talk about Nazi appeasers then he had better be man enough to address dear old grampa.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:33 amFor a great article about Bubble Boy's grandfather and his Nazi connections, please check out:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar
May 15th, 2008 at 10:35 amSo, tell us GG, what do you think of the crushing defeats handed to the GOP in three Congressional special elections? Please note that two of these districts were GOP strongholds, once considered unassailable. The GOP poured tons of money into these races and lost. The last race, in Mississippi, wasn't even close.
So do you seriously believe that the GOP can hold its November losses to 20 House and 6 Senate seats? That is what the GOP leadership believes, but I think they are being way too optimistic. 30 in the House and 10 in the Senate is a real possibility.
Obama will be in the White House, the rule of law will be reestablished at the Justice Department, and the indictments against the Bush gang will begin to flow. Do you think the GOP can survive?
May 15th, 2008 at 10:35 am"First act of President Obama should be" to shout "ARREST THESE MEN"
May 15th, 2008 at 10:35 amIt's a funnily stupid comparison, since it's the Americans who are rolling in with tanks and occupying countries.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:36 amAs Democrats, yes, we can conceive of disagreements within a party.
You seem to miss the point that it's the Republicans who try to use this one Senator (who died almost seventy years ago) to smear Democrats, without mentioning that he was, oh yeah, A REPUBLICAN.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:37 amDoes Bush really want to draw attention to the start of the Second World War? He obviously doesn't know about the Gleiwitz Incident, one of the ways the Nazis justified the attack on Poland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident
There are clear and distinct parallels between the actions of the Nazis then and Bush, Cheney, et. al. before the attack on Iraq.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:41 amChimpy must be referring to Ronnie Ray-gun as well. Seems that "The Great Communicator" met often with Soviet leaders (including Gorbachev) without requiring them to meet every U. S. demand first.
Why doesn't a reporter ask the Bubble Boy if he is also denouncing Ronald Reagan when he labels such meetings as appeasement? Oh, that's right. If the reporter wants to keep their job, they won't ask questions that the self-designated "Decider" doesn't want to answer.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:44 amCould it not be also said that Bush, Cheney, McCain et al are also 'appeasers' for meeting with and courting the favor of such as Hagee, Falwell and Parsley???
May 15th, 2008 at 10:45 am__________
hellinabucket Says:
upright left, don’t you find it to be spineless not to mention the party in which this “Nazi appeaser” is belonging to? And if GWB is going to talk about Nazi appeasers then he had better be man enough to address dear old grampa.
___________
What politician, or anyone else for that matter, regularly mentions the party affilition of people with whom they disagree? Wouldn't you be suspicious of any politician who never disagrees with people simply because they belong to the same party? As for the ancestors, is anyone who had any racist relatives precluded from speaking out against racism? Aren't we all allowed to form our own opinions regardless of party and the actions of our ancestors?
May 15th, 2008 at 10:45 amBush also took the opportunity to introduce the Gitmo work program to rehabilitate the 'terrorists.' It includes barracks, showers and even little motivational signs posted around the compound, like "Work Will Set You Free," and "To Each His Own."
George is very proud.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:46 amBush = Hitler
May 15th, 2008 at 10:48 amJohn Kerry cracks me up!
May 15th, 2008 at 10:49 amYale College is still dealing with the aftermath of its regretful decision in the 60s to admit the first chimp to major in History.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:50 amWhat politician, or anyone else for that matter, regularly mentions the party affilition of people with whom they disagree?
Um, just about everyone? Especially when they are making backhanded accusations towards their opponent.
Enough with the concern trolling. Bush is a tool and he's showing how little he thinks of your intelligence with bs like this.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:51 amBush is an appeaser to Israel : we coddle, supply arms all in the name of a reckless foreign policy while our national economy & national spirit tank.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:53 am"John Kerry" = Nazi interloper trollshit
May 15th, 2008 at 10:53 am___________
ralph the wonder llama Says:
You seem to miss the point that it’s the Republicans who try to use this one Senator (who died almost seventy years ago) to smear Democrats, without mentioning that he was, oh yeah, A REPUBLICAN.
___________
The point isn't the party. The point is the preferred action of the individual, talking to the enemy. I happen to agree with Obama in regard with talking to, not appeasing, Iran. But Bush simply pointed out the words of a person with whom he disagreed. His party is irrelevant unless you assume that every member of a party holds exactly the same view.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:55 amIn Speech Before Israeli Parliament, Bush Compares Democrats To Nazi-Appeasers
So true. The Democrats, even ater taking control of congress, have done nothing but appease and capitulate to the facist Republicans.
http://progressiveworldreview.com
May 15th, 2008 at 10:57 amThose in glass houses gg. Bush's wealth and position is partially due to his grandfather. That same man was a known Nazi appeaser. GWB's argument is weakened by this and that he's never come out and discussed grampa (although there has been ample opportunities to do so).
GWB was playing to the crowd.
McCain, Feingold, Obama and Snowe to name a couple have spoken out against there own party and have mentioned this publicly. Bush either didn't know or couldn't be man enough to add that in his glass house speech.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:02 am_________
stryx Says:
What politician, or anyone else for that matter, regularly mentions the party affilition of people with whom they disagree?
Um, just about everyone? Especially when they are making backhanded accusations towards their opponent.
Enough with the concern trolling. Bush is a tool and he’s showing how little he thinks of your intelligence with bs like this.
__________
People don't regularly note the party affiliation of those they quote outside of a campaign or speech that has party as it's focus. Bush wasn't campaigning. He was addressing a group of people who have a greater interest than you in the actions of Iran.
You really shouldn't concern yourself with what others think of your intelligence.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:06 amWow. What a unitery deciderer.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:06 amYou drag us into an indefinite occupation of a middle east nation, then blame us for wanting to undo your colossal error?
Bite me.
53. John Kerry Says:
It’s so sad but George Bush’s comment is so true!!! All libs are anti American, racist, Marxist cowards and I’m just beginning!
Right, we should not appease the terrorists...we should do like bush did and pay them to not kill us!
'Course that ain't appeasement, that's, er....the free market...yeah, that's it...
May 15th, 2008 at 11:06 am#53 - John Kerry
You apparently misremembered to add that liberals also think for themselves.......don't forget that now.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:06 amTodd,
What has all of the tough talk and military action by Bush resulted in?
Apparently the takeover of Gaza by Hamas, the takeover of Lebanon by Hezbollah and the rise of Ahmadinejad in Iran.
Supposedly the Iranians are also killing US soldiers in Iraq.
Wow, the extremists sure are on the run.
-GSD
May 15th, 2008 at 11:07 amYou got us real fired up here Georgie. You wanted a fight and now you're gonna get it, you illiterate cracker of a criminal.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:08 amNow, what are the Democrats going to do? Will we see DNC ads on every television spot talking about the lies that were spewed forth by this president? Will we see the hypocrisy of his negotiations with N. Korea and Lybia or the statements of his own Sec. of Defense about opening negotiations with Iran exposed? Will we see this all tied to St. McCain? My guess is not.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:09 amIt truly is amazing how some trolls set themselves up as having superior intel than, say the IAEA.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:09 amWhat part of WORST PRESIDENT EVER do you idiot appeasers not get...what ever this puke says means you should do exactly the opposite..he has been wrong on every issue for 7 1/2 years and will continue to be wrong.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:10 amToddster, if you're going to bash another poster, please quote them without MISSPELLING their words. Kriest.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:10 amJohn Kerry Says:
It’s so sad but George Bush’s comment is so true!!! All libs are anti American, racist, Marxist cowards and I’m just beginning!
And TRAITORS Bush, Cheney and the PNAC WAR CRIMINALS have committed TREASON against the USA, especially the Saudi OIL WHOREBAG Bush.
They need to be ARRESTED, TRIED, CONVICTED and
EXECUTED FOR TREASON by a US Army Firing Squad.
The penalty for TRAITORS in "wartime".
And I'M JUST BEGINNING...
May 15th, 2008 at 11:11 amIt absolutely appalling to say the least, that a known war criminal is representing the United States.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:14 amHas our entire government no shame ?
For a Yale history major, that daddy-propelled white trash sure has no grasp of history. 0 IQ bastard hasn't worked a day in his life.
This chimp hasn't been a president, so why do we owe him a pension on top of his undeserved salary these last 8 years? Is there any way to yank it?
May 15th, 2008 at 11:14 amToddMcLauchlin, you do understand that there is an updated report stating that none of the IED's and other weapons used by the insurgents have been shown to come from Iran. You do understand this?
May 15th, 2008 at 11:15 amIt appears that the RNC has located some bridge funding for the Troll Dept.
Maybe they're using the leftover campaign cash from MS-01.
Oh, wait, they spent like 60% of their cash on hand to try to keep that seat, didn't they? Ah well, probably got a grant from the Heritage Foundation or AEI.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:18 amToddMcLauchlin Says:
RUSerious: Every intelligence agency in the world believed Iraq had WMD.
another republican lie. The UN for instance believed that the didn't know if Iraq had WMD. The French and Germany, and Russia said the same thing. the UN had weapons inspectors in Iraq looking for evidence of WMD when bush told them to leave becuase they weren't doing their job. It was bush who pushed the lie and no one else.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:20 amLike school on the week end.....NO CLASS !!!
May 15th, 2008 at 11:21 amI love the sound of a swarm of sycophants in the morning. Their God Bush has been impugned and they wipe the smag from their lips and rise to defend him.
There may only be 7% in the USA who don't think Bush lied to us to drag us into Bush's War, but the true believers are all here this morning.
Get off your knees btches and stop worshipping at the altar of Bush.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:21 amGiGiII, read This
Then come back and tell us all about it.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:21 amG00D_G0LLY Says:
You really are like Nazis. Repeat a lie often enough and suddenly it becomes “Progressive Truth.” Now, the real facts:
Heh. "Facts"? Your link is to FoxNews, the propaganda wing of the Republican Party.
You want facts?
From the Guardian.
And from the BBC:
May 15th, 2008 at 11:21 am
ToddMcLauchlin Says:
"GSD:
You don’t think we have eliminated a lot of the threats through Iraq? The Sunnis have abandoned al Qaeda."
There were no such threats prior to our invasion. An invasion on false pretenses, i might add.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:21 amToady ~ how does violating the Geneva convention and launching a pre-emptive war not a war crime?
May 15th, 2008 at 11:23 amSen. Borah was a great progressive -- they had them in the GOP back in those days.
That said, the phenomena that Bush is alluding to was called "American Firsters" and led by such GOP luminaries as (disgraced) former President Herbert Hoover.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:23 amToddMcLauchlin Says:
How is Bush a war criminal
He attacked a sovereign nation without cause as defined by the Geneva Conventions.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:23 amHe has authorized torture as defined under the Geneva Conventions.
He has used the resources of an occupied country to rebuild that country which is illegal under the Geneva Conventions.
Fan of Man Says:
BUSH: SHUT THE HELL UP!
your grandpa, PRESCOTT supplied HITLER & NAZI GERMANY with over HALF of their wartime iron….
YOU NEED TO SHUT THE HELL UP YOU GODDAMN TRAITOR!
I propose KO's words be applied every time chimpy opens his pie hole for the rest of his reign.
SHUT THE HELL UP!
May 15th, 2008 at 11:24 am99 gummitch, good work, same link as mine at 98...
May 15th, 2008 at 11:24 amHow is the Heritage Foundation or AEI any different from, say, the Daily Kos or MoveOn.org? Let's face it people. We like organizations who support our points-of-view. That's what really bothers me about this site. It seems that no one is rational in their opinions. The other side is always wrong, it is always ok to criticize for everything (like Bush golfing...come on!), and Iran is peace-loving country that harbors no ill will toward the U.S. and is not a threat to us or our allies. Hmmm? Come on...pick your battles and do so respectfully and out of a position of control and rationale. But to defend Iran. There are numerous reports out there from high-ranking officials of our military that confirm that Iran has been supplying IEDs to insurgents and these have been used against our troops. Can I pose an honest, hypothetical question: if Michael Moore told you something that contradicted our top-rankign military officials, who would you be more inclined to believe?
May 15th, 2008 at 11:26 amBobwurst: Absolutely not true. Russian, French, and German intelligence agencies believed Iraq had WMD. This included most of the Democrats. How do you reconcile this compilation of statements?
AS to your first comment. You're either woefully misinformed or you're a liar, or both.
As to your second point: The Democrats were operating using the doctored intelligence provided to them by bush. they were lied to, just like the rest of us.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:26 am"Al-Qaeda was fleeing to Iraq before the invasion. Zarqawi?"
had a tiny little training camp in an area not under Saddam's control. Is that all you got?
May 15th, 2008 at 11:27 amtodd
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/09/politics/animal/main4082928.shtml
May 15th, 2008 at 11:27 amG00D_G0LLY Says:
You really are like Nazis. Repeat a lie often enough and suddenly it becomes “Progressive Truth.” Now, the real facts:
"facts"? From Fox "news"?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Now, for the REAL FACTS from a British publication, the Guardian. The libel laws in England are MUCH HARSHER on journalists in England as opposed to the USA, where Fox "news" SUED FOR THE RIGHT TO LIE.
So if the BRITS were printing LIES, they would have been SUED. They have NOT been sued, so THESE are the FACTS:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar
Bush and Cheney are TRAITORS to the USA who deserve to be ARRESTED, TRIED, CONVICTED and EXECUTED for TREASON against the USA.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:27 amDaryll Says:
I have been saying this all along. Democrats=Terrorism.
And it's further evidence that you're a loon, Daryll.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:28 amhere's another one Todd,
http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_casmii_080515_us_confession_3a_weapo.htm
May 15th, 2008 at 11:28 am"are numerous reports out there from high-ranking officials of our military that confirm that Iran has been supplying IEDs to insurgents and these have been used against our troops.
Hmmm every one I've seen has been debunked. There's no EVIDENCE anywhere, except these 'pentagon experts' word. Now where have I heard the term 'pentagon experts' lately??
May 15th, 2008 at 11:29 amComing from the likes of our XianManic Daryll, that's quite a compliment.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:29 amDaryll the BLASPHEMER says:
I have been saying this all along. Democrats=Terrorism.
And Bush and Cheney are Nazi TRAITORS to this country, and Saudi TERRORIST SYMPATHIZERS who need to be TRIED, CONVICTED, and
EXECUTED for TREASON and TERRORISM against the USA.
As I have been saying ALL ALONG. Bush, Cheney=Nazi TERRORIST WAR CRIMINALS.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:30 amSo if Iranian involvement is ALLEGED, then isn't the burden of proof on those making the allegation? Why do you take it as a given? Are you just a sucker?
May 15th, 2008 at 11:31 amToddMcLauchlin Says:
Exit Stage Left et al.
Is this how you conduct a civil dialogue on the left.
bush just got done questioning the patriotism of everyone who disagrees with him, even though his own grandfather acutally is a nazi sympathizer and appeaser. You come here and defend bush with the usual distortions and lies and and then snivel when someone isn't civil to you. why aren't you over there getting your legs blown off in Baghdad if that fight is so vital to our national security? The answer is that you are just one more right wing chicken hawk coward.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:31 amNote to toady: Out 'military' has been exposed as a blatant propaganda arm of the administration. Hadn't you heard?
May 15th, 2008 at 11:31 amI don't see a problem with him calling the Democrats Nazi Appeasers.
They've been appeasing Nazi Bush for years.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:32 amGot work to do, later.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:32 amOh, The Toddster... *chuckle*
May 15th, 2008 at 11:32 amIt's the ultimate irony, isn't it?
The biggest cause of terrorism and the actual Terrorist-in-Chief blathering on about peace and democracy - when he himself has been the biggest destroyer of both on the planet...?
But he's too bloody effing STUPID to get that.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:32 amThomasMc - so sad and so true.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:33 amBobwurst
"why aren’t you over there getting your legs blown off in Baghdad if that fight is so vital to our national security? The answer is that you are just one more right wing chicken hawk coward."
This is not civil.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:33 amThe Republicans support Israel because it will be the site of Armageddon - their favorite wish fulfillment.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:34 amToddMcLauchlin Says:
Exit Stage Left et al.
Is this how you conduct a civil dialogue on the left.
bush just got done questioning the patriotism of everyone who disagrees with him, even though his own grandfather acutally is a nazi sympathizer and appeaser. You come here and defend bush with the usual distortions and lies and and then snivel when someone isn’t civil to you. why aren’t you over there getting your legs blown off in Baghdad if that fight is so vital to our national security? The answer is that you are just one more right wing chicken hawk coward.
EXACTLY. The REAL Nazis are TRAITOR Bush and his TREASONOUS SUPPORTERS.
President Obama needs to ARREST Bush and Cheney and slap them in Gitmo until they DROP DEAD.
MAYBE from "swimming"!!
LOL!!!
May 15th, 2008 at 11:34 amindyjones Says:
Bobwurst
“why aren’t you over there getting your legs blown off in Baghdad if that fight is so vital to our national security? The answer is that you are just one more right wing chicken hawk coward.”
This is not civil.
And what's your point? It wasn't meant to be civil. It was meant to point out what a bunch of whiny hypocritical cowards you people are.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:36 amI don't care if Prescott was an appeaser or just profited from his association with Nazi's. Bush should surely acknowledge it. If we have to sustain the nearly constant barrage of how bad Obama's reverend is then Grandad is fair game.
I'm still hunting to find those "reports" showing the weapons did come from Iran.
Any help?
May 15th, 2008 at 11:36 amAnd chances are that some of our great grandfathers owned slaves but that does not make me a racist, nor does it make you one. JUst because Bush' grandfather had some associations with Nazis BEFORE their motives were clear to the world, doe snot mean he supported their agenda. This is ridiculous. Now Iran's leader has stated that he believes the holocaust did not happen yet we defend him? Come on!
May 15th, 2008 at 11:37 amindyjones Says:
Bobwurst
“why aren’t you over there getting your legs blown off in Baghdad if that fight is so vital to our national security? The answer is that you are just one more right wing chicken hawk coward.”
This is not civil.
Too BAD, PUNK.
It is a VALID and APPROPRIATE as a question.
Invading a country by LYING, as TRAITOR Bush has done, is ALSO not "civil".
Bush is a WAR CRIMINAL. If YOU support his LIES and WAR, go DIE for him, and let REAL Americans clean up YOUR mess...
May 15th, 2008 at 11:37 am#
ToddMcLauchlin Says:
Bush is as bad as the Nazis?
Actually, Bush wants to protect the Jews - as opposed to Jimmy Carter.
Yeah, negotiating a peace accord for the Isrealies was such a bad thing. It must really gall your rightwingers to know that Carter was a real Christian.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:39 amYes, Bush calling Democrats 'Nazi-appeasers' is so typical. He thinks he can frame the discussion, just as they did in 2004 with the 'vote Democrat and the terrorists win' bullshit. Bush is nothing more than a political animal who doesn't care a whit about anything other than winning - elections, an argument, his way - with disastrous results.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:39 amHell,
I am hardly a coward, far from it. I engage in civil dialogue, based on reason, and have no need to hide behind name-calling. I also admit when I am wrong. But, no, I am not a coward and unless we ever meet face-to-face, I would not know if you are one.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:39 amAnd yes, I DO believe Bush is a War Criminal. The whole administration should be locked up.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:40 amAll, it is very easy to take a mob mentality when someone comes into your forum and expresses an opinion that differs from the popular sentiment. I have not been antagonistic nor have I been uncivil. But I have been called a punk and a coward. Let's not resort to name calling but instead discuss these issues like intelginet adults. Agreed?
May 15th, 2008 at 11:43 amI am in no way shape or form defending Iran. Their leader is a nut job. I will not give this administration any free pass or leeway to start anything with their remaining time in office. They have proven to be unable to meet the challenge and to provide proper leadership.
Iran will need to be watched and we will need to be diligent. I will not sit idly by while GWB tries to whip up a new batch of fear.
You don't go to war with soldiers alone. You bring your entire country. I'm not going to debate the rationale for being in Iraq but I will point out the execution has been the most dreadful waste of blood and treasure. This falls squarely on George W. Bush.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:43 amFunny and I misspell intelligent.!!!
May 15th, 2008 at 11:43 amToddMcLauchlin Says:
Well, those of you who rather believe your President is a War Criminial, and believe the propoganda that comes out of terrorist organizations, have a good day.
He ain't MY "president", PUNK.
Just an illegitimately selected TREASONOUS WAR CRIMINAL who will BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY for his GENOCIDE and LIES.
And since YOU support this Nazi TRAITOR to the USA, have a NICE ETERNITY with Bush and TRAITOR Ronnie Reagan, now DEAD and BURNING...
May 15th, 2008 at 11:43 amOT but I so wish to know?
May 15th, 2008 at 11:48 amDarryl why did you stop damning people to Hell and telling us about the things you imagined god telling you? You had that schtick down. Now your post are so bnoring and nonsensical. What do we have to do to get the old gay converting, prostitute healing, hunger striking for Huckabee Daryll back?
What does it mean when it says your comment is awaiting moderation?
May 15th, 2008 at 11:48 amWith all due respect Good Golly, just because someone says it's from Iran doesn't mean it is. Show the evidence of weapons flowing across the border and the involvement of the Iranian govt. in the process.
There will be no imminent fear or mushroom cloud making me jump.
The use of military force needs to be thought out carefully prior to using them. Once the lid is off all hell breaks loose and the results may not be to your liking.
I firmly believe in the fighting forces of the United States of America. I also firmly believe that a true democracy means to be involved. My involvement has shown this administration is careless. They aren't capable of thinking the current problems thru let alone take on any new ones.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:51 amcaption contest: I ought to know what a Nazi appeaser looks like, after all, my grandpappy Prescott Bush was one.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:53 amHell,
I agree with your stance that the Bush Admin. has completely messed up the Iraq war as well as a host of other things. No dispute there. And I find the argument that we should not take on another war under GWB to be a good one. But I think the evidence is pretty clear that Iran has been supplying weapons to insurgents. But unless Iran attacks us on our soil, I do not want Bush to start another war. It is quite clear that he is not capable of managing it effectively.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:54 amGeeDubs; it means your post will be deleted. It happened to me several times.
May 15th, 2008 at 11:55 amWhy wouldn't a major regional power attempt to influence events occurring in their region?
May 15th, 2008 at 11:59 amindyjones, I've been looking thru the OIF website and still can't come up with any evidence showing there is a systematic effort by Iran to supply the insurgents. I'm not saying there isn't any but just because 4 Iranian hand grenades are found in one cache doesn't make it the "smoking gun"
The fields of Europe are still littered with the weapons of 2 world wars. That doesn't mean Germany is supplying the Baath Separatists with weapons.
The military objective in Iraq had been completed a long time ago. Bush has squandered the peace that our military offered.
May 15th, 2008 at 12:00 pmdbadass,
I have no complaint with that argument. If I were them, I would certainly want to influence events, but I would also know that it would be with potential consequences. They know that, and do so anyway.
May 15th, 2008 at 12:01 pmHell,
With all due respect, what would you consider acceptable evidence?
May 15th, 2008 at 12:02 pmindyjones, (like the name by the way) Iran and Iraq had an eight year war prior to our first Gulf War. The presence of weapons in a country that has seen fighting for the last 20+ years is not alarming to me. War profiteering has gone on as long as there has been wars. What is being suggested but not confirmed is that the Iranian govt. is behind the distribution of weapons. The Iranian leader is worse off politically than GWB. Ironically they both have this idea that keeping the focus on the other will be good for them. Neither has majority support in their own country.
Just this week there has been an admission that some weapons found are not from Iran but had been reported earlier as so.
May 15th, 2008 at 12:12 pmI understand this, hell, but what I am asking is what would be evidence enough to convince you that Iran is supllying weapons to the insurgents? I can understand the speticism after the Iraq WMDs that were never found/existed.
May 15th, 2008 at 12:23 pmThe trolls must be so relieved to be back on the payroll again.
Lotsa ramen noodles the last few weeks, eh, boys?
May 15th, 2008 at 12:25 pmRalph,
Are you referring to me as a troll?
May 15th, 2008 at 12:30 pmAll I'm saying is, my advice is stay away from TGI Friday's after five today. The trolls who have been called back to work will undoubtedly be in a frenzy spending their RNC paychecks on deep-fried apps.
May 15th, 2008 at 12:38 pmWe are ALL referring to you as a troll and flagging you. You are a spamming troll trying not to get kicked out of here. Every explanation you get isn't good enough for you. You're like talking to a two year old that keeps saying "why".
Flag this troll and the rest of them. They're stinking up the place.
May 15th, 2008 at 12:38 pmToddMcLauchlin Says:
“Lividlib: Again, not true. Al-Qaeda was fleeing to Iraq before the invasion. Zarqawi? Also, what country would you prefer we fight al Qaeda?”
How about countries with govts that actively collaborate and support al qaeda? Clearly, that was not the case with iraq (see Sept 11th Commission Report). As previously mentioned, Zarqawi was an insignificant presence in an area not controlled by saddam.
So, are the lives of 4000+ of our troops, tens if not hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians and half a trillion dollars a small price to pay to clean up the mess we created by invading a sovereign country under false pretenses? By some estimates we’re currently spending approx $4,250/second to continue funding the cheney/bush folly. That’s criminal!
May 15th, 2008 at 12:39 pmI don't think they'll have the money to go out ralph. They all probably owe their mommies' back rent for stinking up the basement.
May 15th, 2008 at 12:39 pmGeorge W. Bush - destroyer of STRAW MEN!
May 15th, 2008 at 12:43 pmFunny how those so eager to make war having never put on a uniform out side of Taco Bell.
May 15th, 2008 at 12:44 pmShayne, you sweet naive kid. Since when does not having the money stop a right-winger from spending it?
May 15th, 2008 at 12:44 pm160. indyjones Says:
I understand this, hell, but what I am asking is what would be evidence enough to convince you that Iran is supllying weapons to the insurgents? I can understand the speticism after the Iraq WMDs that were never found/existed.
May 15th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
Wasn't this quote from REPUBLICAN Senator Borah of Idaho? How inconviennt of Bush to leave this fact out?
May 15th, 2008 at 12:49 pmAll,
I can assure yuou that I am not a troll - not that I even know what a troll is. What I am, however, is a guy who is not content to shape my world view and political views on the information fed to me by the likes of Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity. I believe that if conservatives and liberals are truly going to get along and make "progress," we all need to understand each other better and to respect each other's viewpoints. I asked a serious questions Shayne, not like a 2-year old and wanted a solid answer. I am critical in my thinking. I question those things that (1) do not add up or (2) come from unreliable sources (I am not calling you folks unreliable) but questioning some of your sources. Just klike you would question mine if I were citing fox news and rush limbaugh. This is fair.
May 15th, 2008 at 12:52 pmAll,
I can assure yuou that I am not a troll - not that I even know what a troll is. What I am, however, is a guy who is not content to shape my world view and political views on the information fed to me by the likes of Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity. I believe that if conservatives and liberals are truly going to get along and make "progress," we all need to understand each other better and to respect each other's viewpoints. I asked a serious questions Shayne, not like a 2-year old and wanted a solid answer. I am critical in my thinking. I question those things that (1) do not add up or (2) come from unreliable sources (I am not calling you folks unreliable) but questioning some of your sources. Just klike you would question mine if I were citing fox news and rush limbaugh. This is fair.
May 15th, 2008 at 12:52 pmIf you don't know what a troll is, how can you be so sure that you are not one?
Sheesh.
May 15th, 2008 at 12:58 pmBy the powers of inferrence. .... lol. The way the term was used in the sentence implied that I had a dishonorable agenda. That I do not have, Ralph.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:00 pmIndyjones, from your first post:
Look, that right there says a whole lot about what you do and do not know, or claim to know. You should probably start w/ looking into who and what the AEI is.
My unsolicited advice to you indyjones, is to spend a couple of months looking for some answers to your many questions at the library, or on teh google.
If you are honestly on the search for some semblance of truth you will find it.
Then, maybe you will understand why it is so difficult to remain "civil" w/ this
current crop of "conservatives."
As far as misinformation and the trolls are concerned you might want to start here
May 15th, 2008 at 1:01 pm170. indyjones Says:
All,
I can assure yuou that I am not a troll - not that I even know what a troll is.
Then..how do you know if you're not one?
What I am, however, is a guy who is not content to shape my world view and political views on the information fed to me by the likes of Bill O’Reilly and Sean Hannity.
..and yet, you're parroting their (and bush's) claims of Iranian involvement despite there being little or no conclusive proof. Why?
I believe that if conservatives and liberals are truly going to get along and make “progress,” we all need to understand each other better and to respect each other’s viewpoints.
How conciliatory of you..after the conservative vermin tried to literally shut-out every non-republican via the "K-Street project" and blanking out dem congressmen from important meetings throughout bush's idiotic reign. Even denying dems meeting rooms. It's predictable that a "conservative" would feign the olive branch ploy only after watching their majority melt away like dogsh*t in a hard rain.
I am critical in my thinking.
Not when you cite unsourced claims about Iran/Iraq collaboration. I've posted two separate expert sources (Pace and the Iraqi government spokesman.) You've supplied bupkis. Where's your impartiality now?
May 15th, 2008 at 1:05 pmAlpuz3,
I am quite familiar with all the websites I mentioned in my post and there is virtually no difference between them - aside from agenda. And why are questions so bad? I asked for your opinions to see how they compare to mine. There are no "answers" only opinions. We should be able to discuss our opinions to understand where we might find common ground. You do want to find common ground, right? If not, we are hopeless
May 15th, 2008 at 1:06 pmhanshiro,
I have been very critical of Bush and believe he completely mishandled the war. I have also been open toyour opinions. But let's be honest: we have several sources out there reporting conflicting reports. Who do i believe a top Iraqi official or one from the U.S.? Please do not attack me. I am on a search for truth. I have not come in and espoused hatred, have not disrespected anyone, and have tried to remain civil.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:12 pm(sigh) I probably shouldn't go against my better instincts, but indyjones is putting up such a fuss about being here only for discussion and to "learn" that I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for the time being.
It must be admitted that his tone points to a higher-functioning troll -- argumentative, dismissive, arrogant -- but maybe that's a personality flaw rather than a troll characteristic.
Let's let him prove himself. I'm sure the truth will reveal itself in short order.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:12 pmWe should be able to discuss our opinions to understand where we might find common ground. You do want to find common ground, right? If not, we are hopeless.
Nope, no common ground with appeasers of war criminals. You might be hopeless, because you're headed back to the political wilderness. We're full of hope - for a day when republicans are again marginalized, for their unamerican beliefs.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:13 pmI disagree. So we can agree to disagree.
The tone and timing of your posts make me a bit suspicious as to your true intent. I also believe that you can get a pretty good read on people's opinions by simply reading what they post. So with that being said, I'll just sit back and see what happens.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:14 pmIs this the same George W. Bush whose grandfather, Prescott Bush, financed and laundered money for the Nazi Party through his bank, "Union Banking Corporation", until the US Government seized UBC under the "Trading With the Enemy Act" on October 20, 1942?
http://www.geocities.com/bushfamilynazis/
May 15th, 2008 at 1:15 pmIndyjones - nice try. If it walks like a troll and talks like a troll, there's a very good possibility that it IS a troll.
And as I pointed out to a few of your compadres yesterday, I think I can speak for most (if not all) of us when I say that we aren't at all interested in sweet friendship with the fascist scum who have running America - nor with their sycophantic followers - over the last 8 years.
On the contrary, Indy, we are interested in bringing those criminals to justice - and locking them up forever as they so very richly deserve.
If you want to sing Kumbayah with fascists, fine. Have a nice time, but don't expect us to join in.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:17 pmAnd as I pointed out to a few of your compadres yesterday, I think I can speak for most (if not all) of us when I say that we aren’t at all interested in sweet friendship with the fascist scum who have BEEN running America - nor with their sycophantic followers - over the last 8 years.
*muttering* Damn typos.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:18 pmRalph,
Argumentative, yes. But arrogant and dismissive I am not. In fact, arrognace is the one trait I most depsise in this world - it implies that one thinks he is better than another person, for whatever reason. I am not arrogant in the least. And Alpuz3, there is no question that you can get a read on a person's opinions by reading what they post. And I have been quite upfront about those opinuions of mine that I feel strongly about. Why is that so bad? I ask any of you to read through my posts. I have also asked for information when your opinions do not align with mine, so that i can alter my thinking if the evidence suggests that I should. This not a bad thing...
May 15th, 2008 at 1:22 pmAnnie,
I do not even know what to say to you. I don't know why am so hated. I did not do anything other than voice an opinion that does not agree with yours. I am not a fascist. In fact, most people consider me to be a pretty nice guy.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:24 pm176. indyjones Says:
hanshiro,
I have been very critical of Bush and believe he completely mishandled the war. I have also been open toyour opinions. But let’s be honest: we have several sources out there reporting conflicting reports.
I've cited and sourced mine, where are yours?
Who do i believe a top Iraqi official or one from the U.S.?
So, you're "critical of bush," you think he mishandled the war, he lied about Iraq, yet you believe he's not lying now about Iran? Are you serious?
Please do not attack me. I am on a search for truth.
Not when you dismiss sources that are inconvenient to your opinions. Not when you try to cloud direct quotes with your "gut impressions." That's not a search for truth, that's an appeal for "truthiness."
May 15th, 2008 at 1:25 pm#168 - hanshiro,
Not surprising, is it?
to all you cheney/bush sycophants out there, pardon us for questioning some of the claims made by this administration when it comes to issues on iraq, iran, afghanistan, pakistan, terrorism, the environment, economy, etc, etc, but it's for good reason. if that makes me "anti-american" then i'm goddamn proud to be "anti-american". Those of you who continue to defend this administration in light of what has transpired over the past 7+ years are goddamn fools!
May 15th, 2008 at 1:25 pmHanshiro,
May 15th, 2008 at 1:27 pmI did not dismiss sourecs that were inconvenient to my opinion. I weighed two sources that were reporting conflicting news. Perhaps I am guilty of wanting to believe the U.S. official because their report more closely matched what I wanted to believe, just as you believed the Iraqi official for reporting what you wnated to believe. How are we that much different?
187. indyjones Says:
Hanshiro,
I did not dismiss sourecs that were inconvenient to my opinion. I weighed two sources that were reporting conflicting news.
Yet, you don't supply these mythical sources of yours. Your claims to "seek the truth" are beginning to take on the ambiance of a three-day-old herring...
Perhaps I am guilty of wanting to believe the U.S. official because their report more closely matched what I wanted to believe, just as you believed the Iraqi official for reporting what you wnated to believe.
Which report would that be?..and how does it override Pace's statement? US General Pace?
May 15th, 2008 at 1:31 pmCongratulations on your marvelous sense of self-knowledge.
Your rhetorical style is at odds with your self-image, however.
Just sayin'.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:34 pm.
The president of the USA just called over half the Nation,
Nazi appeasers...
I guess that's why he's still in Office.
.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:34 pmHanshiro,
I had to do a quick Google search but here are a few links for your from reputable sources:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17097658/
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WO
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gg4qLR7c7rPKhLqa-kxjsTP4XQigD9096DDO0RLD/meast/04/11/iraq.main/index.html
May 15th, 2008 at 1:37 pmRalph,
I mnost often hear that my rhetorical style has actually been described as unpretentious. I will need to consider my tone. I don't intend to come off as arrogant. I can assure you that i am not.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:40 pmFrom your first source:
So this is a claim, not conclusive proof from an identified source willing to go on record. That's your "report?"
Second link..."Page Not Found."
Third link..."We're Sorry. article not available."
Compelling evidence there, indy...still no source, just nameless bush officials making insinuations. Where's the concrete proof? Where're your sources?
May 15th, 2008 at 1:48 pm*drumming fingers*
C'mon, indy..if there's so much conclusive evidence, there should be scads of information...other than Lieberman saying "quds force" over and over that is.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:56 pmShould I trust your assurances, or should I trust my reader's sense?
Hmmm...
May 15th, 2008 at 1:57 pmLet me be clear hanshiro, I am not here to provide you evidence that Iran is or is not supllying weapons to Iraqi insurgents. What I am doing is trying to show you and others that I have an opinion that - labiet different from yours - is also based on reputable sources. I just tried to post a message with six links in it but it is "awaiting moderation." I am guessing - from what I have read elsewhere - that it will be deleted.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:58 pmRalph,
I said I would watch my tone. I have been nothing but gentlemanly to you, so hopefully I have earned your ttrust
May 15th, 2008 at 1:59 pmAnd there it is, folks!
196. indyjones Says:
Let me be clear hanshiro, I am not here to provide you evidence that Iran is or is not supllying weapons to Iraqi insurgents.
Extraordinary allegations require extraordinary proof. So much for your "truth search..."
What I am doing is trying to show you and others that I have an opinion that - labiet different from yours - is also based on reputable sources.
Sources you have continually not supplied nor provided more cred for than mine in quoting an Iraqi government spokesman and a US General.
I just tried to post a message with six links in it but it is “awaiting moderation.”
Yes, of course you did. If they were as reliable as the other three, no big loss.
indyjones: Who needs proof when I got an opinion?
May 15th, 2008 at 2:05 pmhere is a decent article about it as well, regarding Pace's comments. I had never seen this before and it might raise some doubts but I would not call this evidence enough to take a solid stance on the issue. In the article it says that Iraninan weapons wer found in Iraq and rianians are fighting against US forces. Also, three other senior military do believe that Iran is involved in the insurgency. I just point this out to point out my position that we are going to believe the sources that most closely align with what we want to believe. It is human nature.
May 15th, 2008 at 2:08 pmhttp://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17129144/
May 15th, 2008 at 2:08 pmhttp://www.navytimes.com/ news/ 2008/ 05/ military_mcmaster_iran_051308/
May 15th, 2008 at 2:10 pmhttp://www.presstv.ir/ detail.aspx?id=55562§ionid=351020101
May 15th, 2008 at 2:10 pmhttp://www.npr.org/ templates/ story/ story.php?storyId=9515519
May 15th, 2008 at 2:10 pmHanshiro,
I guess I had to post them seprately. Do not be so antagonistic - I don't mean you any harm.
May 15th, 2008 at 2:11 pmindy, let's just say that I have learned this valuable lesson: when someone assures me that they possess a certain trait, I automatically suspect that claim.
If someone makes a point of telling me how honest they are, I keep one hand on my wallet.
If someone makes a point of telling me how humble they are, well... that pronouncement itself kind of works against the claim, don't you think?
May 15th, 2008 at 2:11 pmRalph, it is not ofetn that I have to defend my integrity. You unjustly said i was something that I am not, so obviously I am going to defend myself.
May 15th, 2008 at 2:13 pmindy, when someone doubts my integrity, my response is usually to shrug my shoulders and let my actions speak for themselves. I have a difficult time trying to convince others of something that should be evident. But that's me, I guess.
May 15th, 2008 at 2:16 pmWell, here you have a legion of peers who share your opinion. I am an outsider who just wants some acceptance. You might try visiting a conservative site, and make a honest attempt at discourse and see how you respond.
May 15th, 2008 at 2:18 pmBush's granddaddy Prescott DID launder Nazi money and DID get property seized by the US Government for TRADING WITH THE ENEMY.
70 YEARS of Bush TREASON against the USA continues...
And we have the FACTS to back up the assertions, unlike TRAITOR Bush. Who will join his Master Satan soon.
Along with TRAITOR Ronnie Reagan, now DEAD and BURNING for his LIES, WAR CRIMES and GENOCIDE...
May 15th, 2008 at 2:22 pm199. indyjones Says: I had never seen this before and it might raise some doubts but I would not call this evidence enough to take a solid stance on the issue.
...
In the article it says that Iraninan weapons wer found in Iraq and rianians are fighting against US forces. Also, three other senior military do believe that Iran is involved in the insurgency.
Yet a bunch of nameless bush lackeys and nameless military officials sway you easily. Your bias is showing indy.
I just point this out to point out my position that we are going to believe the sources that most closely align with what we want to believe. It is human nature.
Umm...no. You've provided nothing, only framed claims from nameless "officials" with no named sources whatsoever. You're either shockingly trusting of a supremely incompetent administration, or you're as gullible as a bowl of lard.
Or both.
May 15th, 2008 at 2:22 pm201.indyjones Says: "http://www.navytimes.com/ news/ 2008/ 05/ military_mcmaster_iran_051308/"
"That page has gone AWOL!"
Look indy, chasing down your bumblingly inept attempts at propping up an unsubstantiated claim is a waste of my time. This is the fourth dead-end link you've posted.
You aren't bolstering your position, except as being as gullible and incompetent as any bush official. You're floundering.
May 15th, 2008 at 2:28 pmhanshiro, it appears as though you're dealing with someone who, for all his humility and knowledge-seeking, did not learn to distrust the people who made such massive, catastrophic mistakes in intelligence (if in fact they were "mistakes") leading up to the invasion of Iraq.
indy seems to discount or disregard the similar facts:
the administration and its political allies wanted to go into Iraq. They found intelligence that, to them, justified an invasion. They invaded and their intelligence was proven almost completely wrong, aqnd the consequences have been horrendous and costly.
Now, the administration and its allies want to go into (or at least BOMB) Iran. They are producing intelligence of dubious origin that they think justifies military action.
indy still wants to believe them.
That's pretty much what you're dealing with.
May 15th, 2008 at 2:28 pmAll,
Have a nice day. I hate to bail on our discourse but I have some things to take care of.
Take care and we'll no doubt chat soon.
May 15th, 2008 at 2:33 pm212. ralph the wonder llama Says: indy still wants to believe them.
That’s pretty much what you’re dealing with.
I guess there really is a bedrock 19% of the country that wouldn't doubt bush even if he was filmed banging a sheep; they'd blame the shepherd.
..or is it 17% now?
May 15th, 2008 at 2:35 pmToddMcLauchlin Says:
RUSerious: Every intelligence agency in the world believed Iraq had WMD.
Whatever, pal. You are apparently a fox-news spoon-fed sheep.
May 15th, 2008 at 2:45 pmWell, here you have a legion of peers who share your opinion. I am an outsider who just wants some acceptance. You might try visiting a conservative site, and make a honest attempt at discourse and see how you respond.
Now you want acceptance, after all the crap we've taken from the Right?
You've got a lot of damn gall...
There is no use in going to a conservative site, as they are all brainwashed synchophants.
May 15th, 2008 at 2:52 pmSo barfly,
would it be best then if I just staye on conservative sites, and bash liberals, while you all continue to bash conservatives? Where does that get us and what does it say for the future of this conuntry? One thing that really upsets me in the current political climnate is the fact that both liberasl and conservatives view progress as advancing their own agenda at the expense of approx. half of the U.S. pop. This not right. We must continue to educate each other so that we understand where we are coming from, what we want and what we are willing to sacrifice. Name calling is not the answer. I don't know why you think all conservatives are terrible people. I don't agree with a lot of liberal concepts and I don't think all liberals engage in sexual misconduct like Bill Clinton or have alcohol problems like Teddy Kennedy. It is not fair for you to think all republicans enjoy war just beacuse George bush has led us into the Iraqi conflict.
May 15th, 2008 at 3:07 pmWow. For someone who is so open-minded, you sure spout right-wing talking points pretty easily.
The fact is, indy, those of us who believe that most Republicans enjoy war is because THE ENTIRE ADMINISTRATION, plus the entire Republican cuacus in both houses of Congress not only supported the invasion of Iraq but continue to cheerlead for the debacle it has become (which was predicted by many, by the way) and they continue, in the face of all of this evidence of past folly, to cheerlead for a sequel in Iran.
That's hardly "just beacuse George bush has led us into the Iraqi conflict".
Straw man arguments -- another hallmark of the troll. Your benefit of teh doubt is shrinking hourly, indy.
May 15th, 2008 at 3:31 pmRalph,
It seems to me that my "benefit of the doubt" shrinks every time I disagree with you and others on the board.
May 15th, 2008 at 3:34 pmI provided hanshiro with several links (not all of them worked, which is not my fault, I just copied and pasted them from the browser) to show that while general Pace has claimed that there is no direct link with Iran and Iraq there are other High ranking milkitary who disagree with Pace. Those who disagree, according to hanshiro, are bush' lackeys. Whereas Pace is not, because he does not believe Iran is supporting the insurgency. Where is the rationale there?
May 15th, 2008 at 3:37 pmIt's not OUR fault that you come here with horseshit links to back up your rightwing talking points and whine when we call out your BS. Come back with some ammo and we'll do battle.
May 15th, 2008 at 3:47 pmDon't bring that tiny pocket knife to a gunfight.
RUC,
The only thing I am guilty of is not being tech savvy enough. Not all of the links are broken. But let's be honest. You would dismiss any article or source - so does it really matter?
May 15th, 2008 at 3:49 pmCNN:
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Iraqi insurgents are being trained in Iran to assemble weapons and Iranian-made weapons are still turning up in Iraq, the U.S. military said Wednesday.
The statement comes two months after the United States said it had asked Tehran to stop the flow of weapons into Iraq.
Coalition forces found a cache of Iranian rockets and grenade launchers in Baghdad on Tuesday, spokesman U.S. Maj. Gen. William Caldwell said Wednesday.
"The death and violence in Iraq are bad enough without this outside interference," Caldwell said. "Iran and all of Iraq's neighbors really need to respect Iraq's sovereignty and allow the people of this country the time and the space to choose their own future."
Caldwell showed reporters photographs on Wednesday that he said were found in the weapons cache. In February, Caldwell said the United States had asked Iran to stop the transfer of weapons.
President Bush has said a branch of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard called the Quds Force is behind the supply of Iranian weapons. Tehran has denied interfering in Iraq.
Caldwell also said Wednesday that two militants who were recently detained said they had received training in Syria, another nation the Bush administration has accused of meddling in the region.
Caldwell offered no other details about the report.
He accused the Quds Force of supplying Iraqi insurgents with armor-piercing roadside bombs, called explosively formed penetrators, or EFPs. Caldwell said extremists are getting training on how to "assemble and employ EFPs."
"We know that they are being in fact manufactured and smuggled into this country, and we know that training does go on in Iran for people to learn how to assemble them and how to employ them," Caldwell said. "We know that training has gone on as recently as this past month from detainees' debriefs."
He said Shiite extremists are being trained inside Iran and said the use of such weapons requires "very skilled training." Much of the violence in Iraq is blamed on fighting between Shiite and Sunni insurgents. An overwhelming number of Iranians are Shiite.
"There has been training on specialized weapons that are used here in Iraq. And then we do know they receive, also, training on ... what we call a more complex kind of attack, where we see multiple types of engagements being used from an explosion to small-arms fire, to being done in multiple places," Caldwell said.
Munitions from Iran were found in a black Mercedes sedan in Baghdad's Jihad neighborhood on Tuesday after a tip from a civilian, he said. An Iranian-made rocket was found in the back seat and Iranian weapons were found in the trunk and around a nearby house, Caldwell said.
In an unusual development, he said coalition forces have found evidence that Sunni insurgents in Iraq received help from intelligence services in the Shiite nation of Iran.
"We have in fact found some cases recently where Iranian intelligence services have provided to some Sunni insurgent groups, some support," Caldwell said. "We do continue to see the Iranian intelligence services being active here in Iraq in terms of both providing funding and providing weapons and munitions."
May 15th, 2008 at 3:51 pmNAvy Times
O-6: No question about Iran role in violence
By William H. McMichael - Staff writer
Posted : Thursday May 15, 2008 7:17:17 EDT
A former adviser to the top U.S. general in Iraq said Tuesday there is absolutely no doubt that Iran is supplying arms and training for insurgents who are killing U.S. troops in Iraq and that news organizations should stop using the qualifying word “alleged” to describe it.
“In the case of what Iran is doing in Iraq, it is so damned obvious to anybody who wants to look into it,” said Army Col. H.R. McMaster, speaking at a Washington, D.C., forum at the American Enterprise Institute. Iran’s intention, he said, is to destabilize the Iraqi government despite public pronouncements of support.
“I think it’s fairly clear that what Iran has done over the last year is try to develop a considerable latent capability that it can turn on at short notice,” said McMaster, a veteran of combat command in Iraq who spent the past year as an adviser to Army Gen. David Petraeus.
McMaster also said that the Iraqi thwarting of the recent uprising in Basra, which officials have said involved significant Iranian backing, may have spoiled a larger regional destabilization effort.
It is possible, McMaster said, “that this bold, very quick action by the prime minister in Basra foiled what was to be, perhaps, a much larger and coordinated effort — maybe even coordinated with efforts in other places in the region, like what’s been happening right now in Lebanon.”
The Iraqi military response to the March militia uprising in Basra, ordered by Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, was initially described as an ineffective failure. But his firing of ineffectual commanders was followed by tactical success and a ceasefire, and is said to have enhanced his status.
McMaster’s comments echoed the April remarks of Joint Chiefs chairman Adm. Mike Mullen, who said the Basra operation “revealed just how much and just how far Iran is reaching into Iraq to foment instability.” Iranian ordnance and training support for Shiite insurgents in Iraq, he said, “continues to kill coalition and Iraqi personnel.
“The Iranian government pledged to halt such activities some months ago,” Mullen said. “It’s plainly obvious they have not. Indeed, they seem to have gone the other way.”
U.S. military officials have long charged Iran with supplying arms, such as the deadly roadside bombs known as explosively formed penetrators, to Iraqi Shiite insurgents. In February 2007, officials in Baghdad unveiled photographs of ordnance they said was stamped with Iranian serial numbers and smuggled into Iraq by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps’ Quds Force. Reporters were told the bombs had taken more than 170 American lives.
McMaster repeated those charges, adding that Iran has also directed assassination operations and trained Iraqis to perform them, using weapons ranging from roadside bombs to sniper rifles.
Iran has repeatedly denied providing such support and has denounced U.S. statements about its involvement with Iraqi Shiites. McMaster said the Iranian actions belie those words.
Iran, he said, has “armed and trained a militia that has been attacking the very government they ostensibly support. And this is not just something in Basra. This is last year. This is in Nasiriyah, this is in Samarra, this is in Diwaniya, this is in Amara. And it was in Karbala on August 26 and 27 of last year, and now again in Basra.
“So I think it’s very obvious what they’re doing. I think it’s very obvious to Iraqis, certainly. The Iraqis I’ve spoken to are incensed about it. And I think it’s no longer ‘alleged’.”
U.S. and Iranian officials have held talks on improving security inside Iraq, but those talks have been cut off. Iraq recently sent a delegation to Iran for similar discussions, but returned saying there was no “conclusive evidence” of militia support.
May 15th, 2008 at 3:53 pmABC News
EXCLUSIVE: Iraq Weapons -- Made in Iran?
Intelligence Officials Say Weapons Responsible for Increasing U.S. Deaths in Iraq
By BRIAN ROSS, RICHARD ESPOSITO and JILL RACKMILL
March 6, 2006
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RSS U.S. military and intelligence officials tell ABC News that they have caught shipments of deadly new bombs at the Iran-Iraq border.
This military vehicle was damaged by an IED. Military and intelligence officials tell ABC News they have intercepted new, deadlier weapons at the Iran-Iraq border.
More PhotosThey are a very nasty piece of business, capable of penetrating U.S. troops' strongest armor.
What the United States says links them to Iran are tell-tale manufacturing signatures -- certain types of machine-shop welds and material indicating they are built by the same bomb factory.
"The signature is the same because they are exactly the same in production," says explosives expert Kevin Barry. "So it's the same make and model."
U.S. officials say roadside bomb attacks against American forces in Iraq have become much more deadly as more and more of the Iran-designed and Iran-produced bombs have been smuggled in from the country since last October.
Related
PHOTOS: Deadly Explosive Devices"I think the evidence is strong that the Iranian government is making these IEDs, and the Iranian government is sending them across the border and they are killing U.S. troops once they get there," says Richard Clarke, former White House counterterrorism chief and an ABC News consultant. "I think it's very hard to escape the conclusion that, in all probability, the Iranian government is knowingly killing U.S. troops."
'Very Lethal'
U.S. intelligence officials say Iran is using the bombs as a way to drive up U.S. casualties in Iraq but without provoking a direct confrontation.
John Negroponte, director of national intelligence, testified before the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence on Feb. 2, saying, "Tehran's intention to inflict pain on the United States and Iraq has been constrained by its caution to avoid giving Washington an excuse to attack it."
The U.S. Army has embarked on a crash effort to find ways to stop the bombs, according to an unclassified report issued last month. The devices are easily hidden and detonated by motion detectors -- like those used in garden security lights -- that cannot be jammed.
When exploded, the copper disc becomes a molten liquid bullet that can penetrate the thickest armor the United States has.
May 15th, 2008 at 3:55 pmI'll play along with you indy. My question to you is so? Is this hampering our mission? What is our mission again?
May 15th, 2008 at 4:05 pmThat is a different argument Hell. We were discussing whether or not Iran is interfering with our mission in Iraq. I took the position that - based on my sources - which are credible, in my view, Iran is interfering. I think the information I posted shows that my sources are credible (but not necessarily right).
May 15th, 2008 at 4:08 pmAnd no need to "play." Either you want to engage in serious dialogue or you do not. But do not patronize me.
May 15th, 2008 at 4:09 pmTrolls like John Kerry on this board are APPEASERS in that they supported Bush's war in Iraq while their false idol ignored Bin Laden and let him escape. I'm sorry to say that while they were excoriating us for "not supporting the troops," I wonder what Bin Laden was doing?
May 15th, 2008 at 4:24 pmHey indy! there are a couple of your fellow "conservatives" up in the Conyers
thread that could use a little unsolicited advice regarding serious "civil" dialogue.
Hop on it!
May 15th, 2008 at 5:20 pmAlpuz3,
Without even going to the thread I have no doubt there very well could be some conservatives who are here for no other reason than to be controversial for the sake of being controversial. But please do not lump me in with them. It is best to ignore them if they are not engaging in civil dialogue.
May 15th, 2008 at 5:59 pmindy, define the mission. You haven't made the case that Iran is pulling any major strings. I'm not patronizing you and have been nothing but polite to you. I have been engaging in the debate. Where has this been hampering our mission? Define the mission and then we can debate on if it's hampered or not.
May 15th, 2008 at 6:01 pmDefine the mission in Iraq? I would say stability and the etsablishment of a sovereign Iraqi state capable of defending itself and mainaining peace. Is that what you were seeking. And by the way, I am sorry if I camne off as confrontational or accusatory. Not intentional.
May 15th, 2008 at 6:19 pmhell,
BTW, in reviewing our discourse you have been more than civil and nice to me and for that I thank you. I don't believe everyone has and as a result I must have become overly defensive.
May 15th, 2008 at 6:25 pmPot...kettle...black
May 15th, 2008 at 6:55 pmKimmer,
I think you may be mixing metaphors here, so i am a little confused but I will assume you are calling me either a troll or a conservative. I am not a troll but I am conservative. I am not here to pick fights but engage in serious and civil dialogue on issues that conservatives and liberals feel strongly about. Also, I do not hate or dislike liberals. So, please, do not come in here and start calling names. It does no good.
May 15th, 2008 at 7:03 pmindy, when has any military been the driving force for stability? The military isn't being used the way it's intended. The burden is too great when sustained for long periods of time. This goes back to what I had earlier stated as the failure of Bush. The mission isn't defined and the execution of it has been piss poor. You yourself agreed. The presence of Iran (who will be there after we leave) is not enough to want to jump into another ill thought out conflict.
Bush doesn't have my support to venture into these waters. Your earlier posts lean that way as well. I'm not closing my eyes to Iran. I'm just not going to allow Bush the chance to further destroy this country under the cover of saving it.
I will continue to be civil.
May 15th, 2008 at 8:53 pmThere is no disagreement between us on this hell. The mission was never clearly defined, and it has just been handled poorly. For this reason, I do not want him to engage in another conflict. The disagreement I was engaged in with the others involved the evidence for Iranian inteference.
May 15th, 2008 at 9:01 pmIndy, did you know that the patriots who fought for our liberation from England were labeled as terrorists. Both colonists and the French were "terrorists".
Iran is living next door to Iraq and will have interests there long after we leave. As long as we can achieve stability don't you think that it's neighbors would aid in making the area stable. If we are to continue to paint Iran as this menace then we will not be able to create any stability.
Remember when we were going to whip some democracy on Iraq. Now we would settle for stability. Iran will need to play a roll in this or there will never be stability.
May 15th, 2008 at 9:11 pmThere was no argument there either hell. I was not arguing whther we should attack Iran, befriend them or negotiate with them. I was contending that there are valid sources out there that state that Iran is supplying insurgents with arms and training. Now, what we do with that information, I don't have an opinion. I know I don't want another war right now. That was the basis of the argument.
May 15th, 2008 at 9:16 pmindy, I'll go back to what I had stated earlier. Where is the evidence the Govt. of Iran is the source? Iranians supplying insurgents doesn't equate to the Iranian govt. as supplying the insurgents. That logic would be akin to saying the US funded the IRA because of the support from the Irish within the US.
With that said, there should be a continual monitoring of the border between the two.
May 15th, 2008 at 9:35 pmhell,
Here is one of the sources from an article pinned above:
McMaster’s comments echoed the April remarks of Joint Chiefs chairman Adm. Mike Mullen, who said the Basra operation “revealed just how much and just how far Iran is reaching into Iraq to foment instability.” Iranian ordnance and training support for Shiite insurgents in Iraq, he said, “continues to kill coalition and Iraqi personnel.
“The Iranian government pledged to halt such activities some months ago,” Mullen said. “It’s plainly obvious they have not. Indeed, they seem to have gone the other way.”
U.S. military officials have long charged Iran with supplying arms, such as the deadly roadside bombs known as explosively formed penetrators, to Iraqi Shiite insurgents. In February 2007, officials in Baghdad unveiled photographs of ordnance they said was stamped with Iranian serial numbers and smuggled into Iraq by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps’ Quds Force. Reporters were told the bombs had taken more than 170 American lives.
May 15th, 2008 at 9:41 pmindy,
If you are truly looking for answers instead of angles and spin read this.
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/85458/
and then search more.
May 15th, 2008 at 9:56 pmhell, to be fair - it is an interesting article and issue I will be following more closely. I would not base my entire belief on this article because - as stated in the article - the gaffe here was really with the Iraqi gov't who thought they had secured Iranian weapons. The article does not make a solid stance that there are no such weapons or involvement but that on this occasion the event was canceled due to weapons - falsely claimed by Iraqi officials to be from Iran. Like I said, I will keep an open mind on this and research it further and follow the developments. It still contradicts what high ranking military officials have stated. So, when presneted with conflicting reports it is best to weigh all of the evidence an dthen make an infomed decision. Thanks for sharing this.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:11 pmDON"T YOU ALL GET IT.
INDYJONES SHITFORBRAINS IS HAL FROM 2001 A Space Odessy.
Listen to his posts, he is fu(king HAL. And just like HAL, we is intent to provide subterfuge and coniliatory words when needed in the longer range plans of SUBVERTING TP.
He is trying to calm TP voice, by making everyone answer in prescribed monotonic cadence, just like GOOSTEPPING FASICST MUDDAFUGGA booosh the NAZI SYMPATHIZER.
Fu(k you HAL
Fu(k you and all of you crony -assed traitors that will hang. No there is no reason, desire, or willingness to have you within the sphere of influence for the next 5000 years. You and your ilk have proven, once again, that you are traitors, you have proven that you are untrustworthy, and incapable of representative rule. You have no desire to promote a functional society, so society should shun you, and either place you in prison for your support of treason, or just hang you as a traitor. There is no rationale for us to APPEASE you, you are the ENEMY. You have stolen ALL that is good with American, and now want those of us willing to put our souls and lives on the line to defend it, you wish to be granted backoffice access only to trojan horse your way to what you feel, as all good brown shirts feel, the left needs to be ki||ed, and that is the mantra.
So Fu(K you, and may death come early to you and yours.
Do not talk to nor feed the trolls.
And todd, you are just useless as a human.
May 16th, 2008 at 12:06 amJust look at this troll droppings. YUK!
indyjones Says:
There is no disagreement between us on this hell. The mission was never clearly defined, and it has just been handled poorly. For this reason, I do not want him to engage in another conflict. The disagreement I was engaged in with the others involved the evidence for Iranian inteference.
The mission was never clearly defined. Forget that is was illegal, forget that it was unwarranted, forget that it was unfounded, all this traitor can see is that it was not clearly defined. As if the plan calling for the striking of X in 72 hrs, and then Y in 48 after and blah, blah, blah, was all that was needed. Not the whole Rumsfeldian clusterfu(k that was Shock and Awe in Iraq.
May 16th, 2008 at 12:14 amHe is a sychophantic bullshitter. REPORT HIS ASS and get him bounced before he caused anymore usually critical minds to feel that "well, he is being so nice and friendly," as he slips the koolaid in between the cracks of the firewall infecting more than just those it actually touches.
LETS NOT FORGET THAT THE BUSH FAMILY WAS 'APPEASING' AND PROFTING WITH THE NAZIS DURING THE WWII! BUSH'S GRAND FATHER WAS THE NAZI APPEASING SOB!!!!!!!!!!
May 16th, 2008 at 5:38 amAlecto,
I am at a loss for words. This obviously may not be the place or forum for serious dialogue. I don't know. I made the assumption that we are all Americans and we all want whats best for America. I have been more than critical of the war in Iraq. Am I going to come out and say that our President should be hung? Do I think everyone who voted for him should be hung? No. I find it very disturbing that we cannot discuss these issues. Further, you calling me a traitor is mean-spirited (i.e., may death come early to you and yours). I suspect that there are a fair number of people here that do not agree with this sentiment or your tact. I find your approach to dialogue to be no different than those on the far right, those you claim are undeserving of representative power. This is America and we have the right to free speech and I will exercise that right within the rules of the board, and I will do so without beligerence, but instead seeking truth and conceding when - in discourse - someone presents a strong argument. Can you agree to do the same?
May 16th, 2008 at 7:29 amAlecto and Others:
Those who seek to get me banned: I am hee seeking the same things you do (as listed on this website) and I am against those thing you are against (as listed here on this webiste). I have not hidden the fact that I am conservative but I am not for a radical right-wing agenda, just as I am against a radical left-wing agenda. I have been more than civil, despite being called every name in the book and with death wished upon me. I am sorry if our conservative President has not fulfilled your expectations (join the club) but that does not mean that all conservatives are (1) terrible, corrupted people, (2) that we deserve to die, (3) that we are stcophants and incapable of free -thinking, (4) are patriotic and (5) are incapable of reason. THese are just a few of things I have been accused of during my short time here. I ask all of you to review my posts and to also review the hatred directed towards me. Is this right? I am willing to let bygones be bygones but please let's not wish death upon anyone, and remember that we are all Americans.
May 16th, 2008 at 7:41 amBush is a Nazi, Granddaddy was a Nazi, and Daddy Bush IS a Nazi, and KNEW Saddam, Osama, Musharraf, etc.
70 YEARS of Bush TREASON against the USA.
Bush and Cheney need to be TRIED, CONVICTED, and EXECUTED by a US military FIRING SQUAD for TREASON and WAR CRIMES.
The PENALTY for committing TREASON in "wartime" (even if it's YOUR war...).
May 16th, 2008 at 10:05 amA true conservative would be pulling there hair out over how this administration has handled this country. They created the largest govt. we have ever seen. There is more intrusion into people's private life. The astronomical spending on a conflict without direction is pitiful.
A true conservative would put aside his/her ego and bruised feeling. They would admit this administration has been a failure for the american people. They would understand the need to regroup and rebrand (like the republicans do every 10 to 20 years).
May 16th, 2008 at 10:31 amHell,
I probably am not a true conservative when it comes to issues of foreign policy. I hold certain beliefs dear to my heart and those beliefs do not align with a liberal agenda. And by the way, if you saw me, you would know i have no hair to pull out!!!
May 16th, 2008 at 11:24 amIs indy still beating this dead horse?
Okay indy...You choose to trust the administration's word on anything. I find that disturbing to the extreme. This administration has lied continually, not about few things, but most things. The sources you quote concerning Iraq are both directed to do so and provided "intelligence" by the same administration that created "the office of special plans."
By the same administration that cited "curveball" as a credible source.
By the same administration that cited debunked "aluminum tubes" as evidence.
By the same administration that tried to sell weather balloon vans as "mobile biological weapons vehicles."
By the same administration that told people of New York that the air was safe.
By the same administration that remained on vacation during Katrina.
By the same administration that threw a lavish $60 MILLION dollar inaugural in 2004 while simultaneously denying our troops vital armor.
By the same administration that has not only not admitted that this war in Iraq is illegal, but has constantly lied and manipulated and spun outright propaganda to justify the indefensible. Oh, they've also wiped out over 1 million people while reducing our military to accepting felons and 50-somethings.
By the same administration that has branded America as a world torture state and human rights abuser.
By the same administration that suspended habeas corpus.
By the same administration that brought us Gonzales, Armstrong Williams, Karl Rove, faulty e-voting machines, cronyism, "heckuva job, brownie," K-street project, Abramoff, Marianas, Blackwater, Halliburton, the list is endless.
By the same administration/republican-led congress that gave us the medicare doughnut-hole idiocy with a three-hour dead-of-night arm-twisting session to force a secretive, way-over budget albatross down America's throat.
This republican clown of a "president" has to publicly lie about playing golf. bush would have to improve just to rate "feeble."
Your claim to want to "explore the truth" is both disingenuous and fatuous. You avoid acknowledging the illegality of the war, ignore completely the staggering and repeated deceptions and paucity of credibility of this administration, preferring instead to couch the situation in terms akin to simple mismanagement rather than recognize the horrific dishonesty authored by this administration to abuse and frighten a shocked and benumbed nation into a war of choice, then compromise America's image with more lies, torture, cronyism, recalls, false terror alerts, bureaucratic nightmares, death squads, false imprisonment, beating deaths, rape, etc....
indy, you're much too feckless to discover truth. If, after the unconscionable conduct of the republicans and their circus-of-the-damned administration, you're still attaching any credibility to their "official story," I've got a bridge I can sell you....
cheap!...really....
May 16th, 2008 at 11:26 amHanshiro,
You are unwilling to accept any opinion other than one which supports death to George Bush and everyone in his administration for their traitorous acts against our country. I have been more than critical of our efforts in Iraq and of Bush himself. I am not sure what you would like me to say. I am a pretty even-keeled guy (you should know that by my posts). I have been even keeled when I have been attacked by you and others (some of whom would mlike to see me and my family dead). So, I apologize for not getting a little more enraged at Bush for his failures as president and in Iraq.
I will address only a couple fo your points now: (1) the illegality of the war. For one, I am no legal scholar, but are we holding him to U.S. law, international law, or both? If he is indeed guilty of this as you claim, and you may be right (I wouldn't know - I do not have a strong overview of U.S. and intenrational law when it comes to matters such as these), why hasn't he been impeached? I would think that if it could have been done legally, it would have been. Two, I don't agree with all of Bush's dometsic policies but some have been good/some bad, like all presidents.
You will get no argument from me that Bush, as of now, stands as one of the least effective presidents of our time, and I personally, will be glad when we hae new leadership. What more do you want? If you wnat me to say that he should be executed, sorry - won't do that. And, I wouldn't... regardless of who the president is - democrat or republican.
May 16th, 2008 at 11:48 am251. indyjones Says:
Hanshiro,
You are unwilling to accept any opinion other than one which supports death to George Bush and everyone in his administration for their traitorous acts against our country.
I've said no such thing, but bush and the administration rates arrest and trial and as harsh a sentence as can be ruled. If that's capital punishment, no faction would deserve it more.
I am not sure what you would like me to say.
Reread my last post, you have yet to acknowledge this administrations gross distortions and the illegality of this war.
So, I apologize for not getting a little more enraged at Bush for his failures as president and in Iraq.
That's disingenuous. You call wiping out 1 million people from a sovereign nation that did not attack us a mere "failure as president?" That's akin to equating bush's massive and murderous incompetence during Katrina as a "miscalculation."
Such dialogue techniques may serve to rephrase the astronomically deadly stupidity of this administration in your mind, but it only reveals your preference to downplay the horrific legacy that is the hubris and greed of the republican perspective.
I will address only a couple fo your points now: (1) the illegality of the war. For one, I am no legal scholar, but are we holding him to U.S. law, international law, or both?
Patronizing me will not bolster your position. If I have to chew your intellectual food for you regarding bush's pathetic attempts to link saddam and osama, yellow cake, etc, I will be much less polite. Read PNAC, and you will get a chilling dose of the republican "master plan," authored by the very architects who fostered the Iraq war.
Two, I don’t agree with all of Bush’s dometsic policies but some have been good/some bad, like all presidents.
There have been none. The dollar is roughly half the worth of the british pound, Billions are unaccounted-for in Iraq and the administration. Businesses are folding at an unprecedented rate and the jobs created don't amount to squat. Your drive-by generalities don't stand up to scrutiny. The American "brand" is routinely avoided elsewhere in the world.
You will get no argument from me that Bush, as of now, stands as one of the least effective presidents of our time
"Least effective?" You again employ the extreme understatement phraseology to diminish the enormous deadly ineptitude that bush's presidency represents. No other president has fostered more terrorists, killed more people, or abandoned more citizens than this modern-day failure. Your preference in repeatedly blunting bush's obvious criminality appears to be a throwback to the Nixonian "mistakes were made" rhetoric.
It isn't working now either. Your command of the legion of bush crimes and dearth of credibility is sorely lacking if you still extend them a grain of plausibility.
May 16th, 2008 at 12:29 pmhanshiro,
Couple of points: (1) I am not downplaying the fact that Bush has been a complete failure; (2) I would not patronize - I honestly do not understand the law when it comes to issues such as impeachment (and I would not want to speak of that which i know not enough, aka Mr. James); and (3) some policies have worked, many others have not. I believe Bush has kept us from another terrorist attack, that his tax cuts have made life a little easier for the working middle class (the economy is another issue), and that he has made much needed efforts to hold school districts and educators accountable.
May 16th, 2008 at 1:23 pm253. indyjones Says:
hanshiro,
Couple of points: (1) I am not downplaying the fact that Bush has been a complete failure;
Your brand of descriptors says otherwise.
(2) I would not patronize - I honestly do not understand the law when it comes to issues such as impeachment (and I would not want to speak of that which i know not enough, aka Mr. James);
I'll nutshell it for you. The bush administration attacked and currently occupies a sovereign nation which absolutely did not pose an imminent threat nor did it attack us. bush has not acknowledged this, nor does he acknowledged the UN regarding this situation.
Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11. The highjackers were mostly Saudi, yet we didn't attack Saudi Arabia. Why? It's tantamount to being attacked by Canada and invading Mexico.
If you're going to engage in a discussion on any political board, it's prudent to gain some measure of knowledge beforehand rather than constantly having recent history spoon-fed you by the very people you claim to disagree with. You presume to dictate your position on Iraq/Iran without a clue about how bush has eviscerated international law. I honestly don't have time nor the inclination to school you on what is easily attainable on the web for any 12-year-old. That realization also casts doubt on your "open-minded truthseeker" claim.
3) some policies have worked, many others have not. I believe Bush has kept us from another terrorist attack,
Then you are rudimentarily naive bordering on deficiency. bush presided over 9-11. rice rejected taking action before 9-11. bush's own daily briefing in August was ignored. bush sat in a classroom (and hung around for something close to 1.5 hours) exposing elementary children to a possible terrorist attack on 9-11. He allowed the bin Laden family to fly out of restricted airspace with little FBI intervention, then lied about it. He stonewalled the 9-11 investigation at every turn...
that his tax cuts have made life a little easier for the working middle class
You really are entirely out of your depth with your illusory faith; either that or you gain your information from Limbaugh or Fox. Making a statement like that suggests a dubious command of rational judgment.
and that he has made much needed efforts to hold school districts and educators accountable.
bush has merely steered policy to failed random testing in NCLB, a vastly underfunded mandate that has not only been widely discredited but bush had to hire whore-journos to pimp the plan, undisclosed and unbeknownst to readers, a.k.a. Armstrong Williams. One would imagine that a successful plan wouldn't require such shenanigans. Add to that how Neil bush, enabled by Jeb bush, is profiting handsomely from NCLB...surprise, surprise.
I'm afraid, indy, you've dosed-up on O'Reilly and Fox and wandered smack into the reality superhighway. Your "beliefs" are nothing more than verbatim republican talking points. Your "help me understand" act is disingenuous to the point of absurdity (nobody could be that godawfully stupid or uninformed unless they were really trying, or they were republican.) You're a cartoon, indy, a republican cartoon...the worst kind.
May 16th, 2008 at 2:38 pmhanshiro,
Couple of points: (1) I am not downplaying the fact that Bush has been a complete failure;
Your brand of descriptors says otherwise. SHOW ME HOW?
(2) I would not patronize - I honestly do not understand the law when it comes to issues such as impeachment (and I would not want to speak of that which i know not enough, aka Mr. James);
I’ll nutshell it for you. The bush administration attacked and currently occupies a sovereign nation which absolutely did not pose an imminent threat nor did it attack us. bush has not acknowledged this, nor does he acknowledged the UN regarding this situation.
Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11. The highjackers were mostly Saudi, yet we didn’t attack Saudi Arabia. Why? It’s tantamount to being attacked by Canada and invading Mexico.
If you’re going to engage in a discussion on any political board, it’s prudent to gain some measure of knowledge beforehand rather than constantly having recent history spoon-fed you by the very people you claim to disagree with. You presume to dictate your position on Iraq/Iran without a clue about how bush has eviscerated international law. I honestly don’t have time nor the inclination to school you on what is easily attainable on the web for any 12-year-old. That realization also casts doubt on your “open-minded truthseeker” claim. BY THIS LOGIC, HUSSEIN SHOULD HAVE BEEN TRIED FOR TREASON IN 1991 AND WE WOULD NOT HAVE HAD THIS MESS.
3) some policies have worked, many others have not. I believe Bush has kept us from another terrorist attack,
Then you are rudimentarily naive bordering on deficiency. bush presided over 9-11. rice rejected taking action before 9-11. bush’s own daily briefing in August was ignored. bush sat in a classroom (and hung around for something close to 1.5 hours) exposing elementary children to a possible terrorist attack on 9-11. He allowed the bin Laden family to fly out of restricted airspace with little FBI intervention, then lied about it. He stonewalled the 9-11 investigation at every turn…
THIS IS SPECULATIVE AND MAKES MANY ASSUMPTIONS. DO YOU KNOW ALL OF THE INFORMATION THAT IS INCLUDED IN THESE DAILY BRIEFINGS? IF HE HAD MADE A PREEMPTIVE STRIKE ON OBL PRIOR TO 9/11, YOU WOULD NOT HAVE CRITICIZED HIM FOR IT? AGAIN, THIS WULD NOT BE AN ISSUE HAD WE CAPTURED OBL WHEN HE WAS OFFERED TO US
that his tax cuts have made life a little easier for the working middle class
You really are entirely out of your depth with your illusory faith; either that or you gain your information from Limbaugh or Fox. Making a statement like that suggests a dubious command of rational judgment. I AM A MEMBER OF THE WORKING MIDDLE CLASS AND HIS TAX CUTS AND STIMULUS PACKAGES HAVE MADE MY LIFE EASIER - ECEONOMY AS A WHOLE ASIDE
and that he has made much needed efforts to hold school districts and educators accountable.
bush has merely steered policy to failed random testing in NCLB, a vastly underfunded mandate that has not only been widely discredited but bush had to hire whore-journos to pimp the plan, undisclosed and unbeknownst to readers, a.k.a. Armstrong Williams. One would imagine that a successful plan wouldn’t require such shenanigans. Add to that how Neil bush, enabled by Jeb bush, is profiting handsomely from NCLB…surprise, surprise. RANDOM TESTING, ARE YOU SERIOUS? NCLB IN THEORY, IS WONDERFUL. IF THERE ARE ANY COMPLAINTS IT IS THAT THE STATES DEPT'S OF ED. EXERCISE TOO MUCH AUTHORITY AND PUSH BACK AT THE NOTION THAT THEY NEED TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE. THE LARGEST CRITICS OF NCLB HAVE OFTEN BEEN THOSE WHOSE EDUCATIONAL POLICIES HAVE FAILED US FOR DECADES
I’m afraid, indy, you’ve dosed-up on O’Reilly and Fox and wandered smack into the reality superhighway. Your “beliefs” are nothing more than verbatim republican talking points. Your “help me understand” act is disingenuous to the point of absurdity (nobody could be that godawfully stupid or uninformed unless they were really trying, or they were republican.) You’re a cartoon, indy, a republican cartoon…the worst kind. AND YOU, GOOD SIR, FOLLOW THE TAIL OF THE LEFT WING DEMAGOGUES WITHOUT CONSIDERING OPPOSING POINTS OF VIEW. ADMIT THAT YOU ARE NO DIFFERENT FROM THOSE YOU ADMONISH BY FAILING TO SEEK COMMON GROUND, AND BELIEVING WHAT IS FED TO YOU BY THE LEFT WING. UNFORTUNATELY, THERE ARE LOT OF PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE SPECTRUM WHO DO THIS SO YOU ARE NOT ALONE.
May 16th, 2008 at 3:09 pm255. indyjones Says:
hanshiro,
Couple of points: (1) I am not downplaying the fact that Bush has been a complete failure;
Your brand of descriptors says otherwise. SHOW ME HOW?
I already addressed this. The technique of asking the same question over and over to elicit impatience is tired, indy. Your references to bush have been understatements incongruous to bush's horrific reign. Figure that out.
BY THIS LOGIC, HUSSEIN SHOULD HAVE BEEN TRIED FOR TREASON IN 1991 AND WE WOULD NOT HAVE HAD THIS MESS.
Capital letters do not a case make, nor does mission creep strengthen your position. You asked about bush's war in relation to attacking Iraq. 1991 is a whole other can of worms which, doubtless, you'd exemplify the same uninformed commentary. bush invaded a sovereign nation which was not an imminent threat in abrogation of international law with a trumped-up and unsubstantiated case. He should be tried and imprisoned.
THIS IS SPECULATIVE AND MAKES MANY ASSUMPTIONS.
It is documented as rice testified to the PDB contents.
DO YOU KNOW ALL OF THE INFORMATION THAT IS INCLUDED IN THESE DAILY BRIEFINGS?
With a title such as, "Bin Laden Determined To Strike In US," I don't imagine a competent, intelligent president would then decide it's a dandy time for a month-long vacation.
IF HE HAD MADE A PREEMPTIVE STRIKE ON OBL PRIOR TO 9/11, YOU WOULD NOT HAVE CRITICIZED HIM FOR IT?
Trying to impose a false scenario and attribute a strawman response to me to bolster your case only makes you look less informed.
AGAIN, THIS WULD NOT BE AN ISSUE HAD WE CAPTURED OBL WHEN HE WAS OFFERED TO US
Heh, again, this begs another equally shaky presumption on your part which departs from the present subject & attendant clown-in-chief.
I AM A MEMBER OF THE WORKING MIDDLE CLASS AND HIS TAX CUTS AND STIMULUS PACKAGES HAVE MADE MY LIFE EASIER - ECEONOMY AS A WHOLE ASIDE
That makes one of you. If the middle class is so happy, why are they being offered tax rebates? Why are savings at an all-time low? Why is credit-card debt at an all-time high? Why are you pushing discredited, phony republican talking points?
RANDOM TESTING, ARE YOU SERIOUS? NCLB IN THEORY, IS WONDERFUL.
Bahahaha! "in theory" everything is wonderful.
IF THERE ARE ANY COMPLAINTS IT IS THAT THE STATES DEPT’S OF ED. EXERCISE TOO MUCH AUTHORITY AND PUSH BACK AT THE NOTION THAT THEY NEED TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.
Riiight, it's the teacher's fault. Nevermind that it's titanically underfunded. Stop being so intellectually dishonest, "indy."
THE LARGEST CRITICS OF NCLB HAVE OFTEN BEEN THOSE WHOSE EDUCATIONAL POLICIES HAVE FAILED US FOR DECADES
Not even close. It relies on rote memorization instead of developmental skills and discourages teachers to teach skills that don't contribute to positive test scores or "teaching to the test." In other words, the students learn the narrow range of NCLB and receive a less rounded education, lest the teachers risk losing funding by departing from some mandated set of skills. That isn't progress, nor does it solve the funding shortfall.
AND YOU, GOOD SIR, FOLLOW THE TAIL OF THE LEFT WING DEMAGOGUES WITHOUT CONSIDERING OPPOSING POINTS OF VIEW.
I'm not coming to you and pleading to be educated on basic news and events.
ADMIT THAT YOU ARE NO DIFFERENT FROM THOSE YOU ADMONISH BY FAILING TO SEEK COMMON GROUND, AND BELIEVING WHAT IS FED TO YOU BY THE LEFT WING.
That is your fallacy. To begin with, the left-wing can't begin to approach the right-wing body-count of Iraq. You and I are nothing alike. I know a war criminal when I see one, you merely see a "failed president," who is no better or worse than any other president, nor do you allow facts to interfere with your republican vision of "prosperity" which involves dismissing the reality that contradicts your pet beliefs.
UNFORTUNATELY, THERE ARE LOT OF PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE SPECTRUM WHO DO THIS SO YOU ARE NOT ALONE.
Yes, the republican "we are all at fault" method of accountability dispersion. This also will not fly, indy. The republicans are pure scum who should be drafted and airdropped into their little bush administration-engineered war. You are merely an unquestioning intellectual coward that cannot bring yourself to recognize the destruction your self-involved prejudices have wrought. You're one of the last remaining bush-suck deluded.
No parting shot-insult I could muster would be worse than to be what you already are: a bush republican.
May 16th, 2008 at 4:08 pm242. Kilo Says: So your answer is that you aren’t really interested in the law at all when it comes to you claiming illegality is relevant ?
Kilo, you've chosen a comment that is completely out-of-context to what you're trying to figure out regarding a lengthy exchange. I sent indy-the-republican back to research his question before having me do his legwork. Your baiting is not only confused, but bumbling. Reread the exchange again.
The PNAC document isn’t relevant to the question of legality.
I never said it was. Again, since you've stumbled inartfully into the middle of a formerly ongoing dialogue, you've completely screwed up the understanding as well as context. I'm not interested in helping another so benighted a republican tool and recount for you your comprehension shortcomings.
The tu quoque fallacies invoking Clinton simply confirm your confused desperation to post even if it has no relevance to the dialogue at hand or any substance whatsoever. In other words Kilo (and I'm sure this isn't the first time you've heard this..) you don't know what you're talking about.
May 17th, 2008 at 1:06 am.
The terrorist monkey can not be negotiated with. The only reason to maybe talk to Ahmadamadmonkey in say maybe Switzerland is to provoke him by debating his ideology and criticizing the hatred. Force him to say lots of stupid and insane things which would be widely publicized thus educating more people to his ideology's insanity. This, I am quite sure, Obama would never do.
Ouch, Obama and the poor little Dems were hit a little too close to home by what GW said. It's one of the best things Bush has ever said. Bravo! And he didn't even have to mention the Dhimmicrats or any body's name.
So sure, then he folded in Saudi Arabia, but what he said in Israel almost makes that OK.
.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
appease the appeasers
don't embarrass them
by calling them appeasers
.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe said
have a sit down with Hitler
he should have been sweet-talked
he had goodness within
.
Appeasement Talk Bothers Appeasers
Help Halt Terrorism Now!
USpace
:)
May 17th, 2008 at 4:51 am.
Notice how "kilo" posts AFTER everyone else to try to get the last word.
The LAST WORDS, however, are:
MURDERERE Bush is a COXUCKER punk TRAITOR to the USA, who needs to be ARRESTED, TRIED, CONVICTED and EXECUTED for TREASON
against the USA, which is the PENALTY for TREASON in "wartime".
His grandfather was a money-launderer for Hitler and the Nazis, Daddy was the CIA chief who knew Saddam and Osama,
and Junior keeps the Bush TREASON alive by starting WARS OF AGGRESSION, POLITICIZING the DoJ, and
FVKCING National Security by exposing our CIA spy who specialized in WMD, then PARDONING his OWN ASSISTANT, Libby,
who PERJURED and OBSTRUCTED JUSTICE.
When TRAITOR Bush DROPS DEAD and goes to hell to be with his MASTER Satan and TRAITOR Ronnie Reagan, the WORLD will CELEBRATE!!
May 17th, 2008 at 11:28 amKilo Says:
If someone says you’ve ducked a topic and prompts you to address it, it really isn’t necessary to state that you said nothing about the topic. That’s redundant and, once again, evasive.
I'll (again) type slower for you Kilo. (since you can't read a simple article about a pet crematory, I've little doubt you can comprehend anything more involved.)
The simple fact is that you came in late on the thread, you want to introduce cherry-picked tangential issues that have no bearing on the subject at hand, and I've already slapped you down over the crematory article so you have a boring axe to grind, not a genuine issue to explore.
I didn't spoon feed sock-puppet indy because the issue has been written more exploratively elsewhere.
Fact is, you're angry and boring Kilo, your baiting is unoriginal and you're here to promote republican talking points rather than to get to the truth. Like indy.
May 17th, 2008 at 8:48 pm251. Kilo Says:Er… no. I’ve never seen your name before this thread pal.
So you're unobservant as well as boring. yet by the next paragraph, you recall seems to kick in...
Oh you mean a genuine issue like fake outrage about a sign at a crematorium,
Then you follow it up with more predictable, tired, tangential baiting. *yawn*
(btw...I believe you got spanked and "pussied out" of the crematorium thread. No wonder you're so mad...heh)
Moving on...
May 17th, 2008 at 11:38 pm