So you’re unobservant as well as boring. yet by the next paragraph, you recall seems to kick in…

Oh you mean a genuine issue like fake outrage about a sign at a crematorium,

Then you follow it up with more predictable, tired, tangential baiting. *yawn*

(btw…I believe you got spanked and “pussied out” of the crematorium thread. No wonder you’re so mad…heh)

Moving on…

If someone says you’ve ducked a topic and prompts you to address it, it really isn’t necessary to state that you said nothing about the topic. That’s redundant and, once again, evasive.

I’ll (again) type slower for you Kilo. (since you can’t read a simple article about a pet crematory, I’ve little doubt you can comprehend anything more involved.)

The simple fact is that you came in late on the thread, you want to introduce cherry-picked tangential issues that have no bearing on the subject at hand, and I’ve already slapped you down over the crematory article so you have a boring axe to grind, not a genuine issue to explore.

I didn’t spoon feed sock-puppet indy because the issue has been written more exploratively elsewhere.

Fact is, you’re angry and boring Kilo, your baiting is unoriginal and you’re here to promote republican talking points rather than to get to the truth. Like indy.

Ouch, Obama and the poor little Dems were hit a little too close to home by what GW said. It’s one of the best things Bush has ever said. Bravo! And he didn’t even have to mention the Dhimmicrats or any body’s name.

So sure, then he folded in Saudi Arabia, but what he said in Israel almost makes that OK.
.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
appease the appeasers

don’t embarrass them
by calling them appeasers

.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe said
have a sit down with Hitler

he should have been sweet-talked
he had goodness within

.
Appeasement Talk Bothers Appeasers

Help Halt Terrorism Now!

USpace

:)
.

Kilo, you’ve chosen a comment that is completely out-of-context to what you’re trying to figure out regarding a lengthy exchange. I sent indy-the-republican back to research his question before having me do his legwork. Your baiting is not only confused, but bumbling. Reread the exchange again.

The PNAC document isn’t relevant to the question of legality.

I never said it was. Again, since you’ve stumbled inartfully into the middle of a formerly ongoing dialogue, you’ve completely screwed up the understanding as well as context. I’m not interested in helping another so benighted a republican tool and recount for you your comprehension shortcomings.

The tu quoque fallacies invoking Clinton simply confirm your confused desperation to post even if it has no relevance to the dialogue at hand or any substance whatsoever. In other words Kilo (and I’m sure this isn’t the first time you’ve heard this..) you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Your brand of descriptors says otherwise. SHOW ME HOW?

I already addressed this. The technique of asking the same question over and over to elicit impatience is tired, indy. Your references to bush have been understatements incongruous to bush’s horrific reign. Figure that out.

BY THIS LOGIC, HUSSEIN SHOULD HAVE BEEN TRIED FOR TREASON IN 1991 AND WE WOULD NOT HAVE HAD THIS MESS.

Capital letters do not a case make, nor does mission creep strengthen your position. You asked about bush’s war in relation to attacking Iraq. 1991 is a whole other can of worms which, doubtless, you’d exemplify the same uninformed commentary. bush invaded a sovereign nation which was not an imminent threat in abrogation of international law with a trumped-up and unsubstantiated case. He should be tried and imprisoned.

THIS IS SPECULATIVE AND MAKES MANY ASSUMPTIONS.

It is documented as rice testified to the PDB contents.

DO YOU KNOW ALL OF THE INFORMATION THAT IS INCLUDED IN THESE DAILY BRIEFINGS?

With a title such as, “Bin Laden Determined To Strike In US,” I don’t imagine a competent, intelligent president would then decide it’s a dandy time for a month-long vacation.

IF HE HAD MADE A PREEMPTIVE STRIKE ON OBL PRIOR TO 9/11, YOU WOULD NOT HAVE CRITICIZED HIM FOR IT?

Trying to impose a false scenario and attribute a strawman response to me to bolster your case only makes you look less informed.

AGAIN, THIS WULD NOT BE AN ISSUE HAD WE CAPTURED OBL WHEN HE WAS OFFERED TO US

Heh, again, this begs another equally shaky presumption on your part which departs from the present subject & attendant clown-in-chief.

I AM A MEMBER OF THE WORKING MIDDLE CLASS AND HIS TAX CUTS AND STIMULUS PACKAGES HAVE MADE MY LIFE EASIER – ECEONOMY AS A WHOLE ASIDE

That makes one of you. If the middle class is so happy, why are they being offered tax rebates? Why are savings at an all-time low? Why is credit-card debt at an all-time high? Why are you pushing discredited, phony republican talking points?

RANDOM TESTING, ARE YOU SERIOUS? NCLB IN THEORY, IS WONDERFUL.

Bahahaha! “in theory” everything is wonderful.

IF THERE ARE ANY COMPLAINTS IT IS THAT THE STATES DEPT’S OF ED. EXERCISE TOO MUCH AUTHORITY AND PUSH BACK AT THE NOTION THAT THEY NEED TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

Riiight, it’s the teacher’s fault. Nevermind that it’s titanically underfunded. Stop being so intellectually dishonest, “indy.”

THE LARGEST CRITICS OF NCLB HAVE OFTEN BEEN THOSE WHOSE EDUCATIONAL POLICIES HAVE FAILED US FOR DECADES

Not even close. It relies on rote memorization instead of developmental skills and discourages teachers to teach skills that don’t contribute to positive test scores or “teaching to the test.” In other words, the students learn the narrow range of NCLB and receive a less rounded education, lest the teachers risk losing funding by departing from some mandated set of skills. That isn’t progress, nor does it solve the funding shortfall.

AND YOU, GOOD SIR, FOLLOW THE TAIL OF THE LEFT WING DEMAGOGUES WITHOUT CONSIDERING OPPOSING POINTS OF VIEW.

I’m not coming to you and pleading to be educated on basic news and events.

ADMIT THAT YOU ARE NO DIFFERENT FROM THOSE YOU ADMONISH BY FAILING TO SEEK COMMON GROUND, AND BELIEVING WHAT IS FED TO YOU BY THE LEFT WING.

That is your fallacy. To begin with, the left-wing can’t begin to approach the right-wing body-count of Iraq. You and I are nothing alike. I know a war criminal when I see one, you merely see a “failed president,” who is no better or worse than any other president, nor do you allow facts to interfere with your republican vision of “prosperity” which involves dismissing the reality that contradicts your pet beliefs.

UNFORTUNATELY, THERE ARE LOT OF PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE SPECTRUM WHO DO THIS SO YOU ARE NOT ALONE.

Yes, the republican “we are all at fault” method of accountability dispersion. This also will not fly, indy. The republicans are pure scum who should be drafted and airdropped into their little bush administration-engineered war. You are merely an unquestioning intellectual coward that cannot bring yourself to recognize the destruction your self-involved prejudices have wrought. You’re one of the last remaining bush-suck deluded.

No parting shot-insult I could muster would be worse than to be what you already are: a bush republican.

Couple of points: (1) I am not downplaying the fact that Bush has been a complete failure;

Your brand of descriptors says otherwise. SHOW ME HOW?

(2) I would not patronize – I honestly do not understand the law when it comes to issues such as impeachment (and I would not want to speak of that which i know not enough, aka Mr. James);

I’ll nutshell it for you. The bush administration attacked and currently occupies a sovereign nation which absolutely did not pose an imminent threat nor did it attack us. bush has not acknowledged this, nor does he acknowledged the UN regarding this situation.

Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11. The highjackers were mostly Saudi, yet we didn’t attack Saudi Arabia. Why? It’s tantamount to being attacked by Canada and invading Mexico.

If you’re going to engage in a discussion on any political board, it’s prudent to gain some measure of knowledge beforehand rather than constantly having recent history spoon-fed you by the very people you claim to disagree with. You presume to dictate your position on Iraq/Iran without a clue about how bush has eviscerated international law. I honestly don’t have time nor the inclination to school you on what is easily attainable on the web for any 12-year-old. That realization also casts doubt on your “open-minded truthseeker” claim. BY THIS LOGIC, HUSSEIN SHOULD HAVE BEEN TRIED FOR TREASON IN 1991 AND WE WOULD NOT HAVE HAD THIS MESS.

3) some policies have worked, many others have not. I believe Bush has kept us from another terrorist attack,

Then you are rudimentarily naive bordering on deficiency. bush presided over 9-11. rice rejected taking action before 9-11. bush’s own daily briefing in August was ignored. bush sat in a classroom (and hung around for something close to 1.5 hours) exposing elementary children to a possible terrorist attack on 9-11. He allowed the bin Laden family to fly out of restricted airspace with little FBI intervention, then lied about it. He stonewalled the 9-11 investigation at every turn…
THIS IS SPECULATIVE AND MAKES MANY ASSUMPTIONS. DO YOU KNOW ALL OF THE INFORMATION THAT IS INCLUDED IN THESE DAILY BRIEFINGS? IF HE HAD MADE A PREEMPTIVE STRIKE ON OBL PRIOR TO 9/11, YOU WOULD NOT HAVE CRITICIZED HIM FOR IT? AGAIN, THIS WULD NOT BE AN ISSUE HAD WE CAPTURED OBL WHEN HE WAS OFFERED TO US

that his tax cuts have made life a little easier for the working middle class

You really are entirely out of your depth with your illusory faith; either that or you gain your information from Limbaugh or Fox. Making a statement like that suggests a dubious command of rational judgment. I AM A MEMBER OF THE WORKING MIDDLE CLASS AND HIS TAX CUTS AND STIMULUS PACKAGES HAVE MADE MY LIFE EASIER – ECEONOMY AS A WHOLE ASIDE

and that he has made much needed efforts to hold school districts and educators accountable.

bush has merely steered policy to failed random testing in NCLB, a vastly underfunded mandate that has not only been widely discredited but bush had to hire whore-journos to pimp the plan, undisclosed and unbeknownst to readers, a.k.a. Armstrong Williams. One would imagine that a successful plan wouldn’t require such shenanigans. Add to that how Neil bush, enabled by Jeb bush, is profiting handsomely from NCLB…surprise, surprise. RANDOM TESTING, ARE YOU SERIOUS? NCLB IN THEORY, IS WONDERFUL. IF THERE ARE ANY COMPLAINTS IT IS THAT THE STATES DEPT’S OF ED. EXERCISE TOO MUCH AUTHORITY AND PUSH BACK AT THE NOTION THAT THEY NEED TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE. THE LARGEST CRITICS OF NCLB HAVE OFTEN BEEN THOSE WHOSE EDUCATIONAL POLICIES HAVE FAILED US FOR DECADES

I’m afraid, indy, you’ve dosed-up on O’Reilly and Fox and wandered smack into the reality superhighway. Your “beliefs” are nothing more than verbatim republican talking points. Your “help me understand” act is disingenuous to the point of absurdity (nobody could be that godawfully stupid or uninformed unless they were really trying, or they were republican.) You’re a cartoon, indy, a republican cartoon…the worst kind. AND YOU, GOOD SIR, FOLLOW THE TAIL OF THE LEFT WING DEMAGOGUES WITHOUT CONSIDERING OPPOSING POINTS OF VIEW. ADMIT THAT YOU ARE NO DIFFERENT FROM THOSE YOU ADMONISH BY FAILING TO SEEK COMMON GROUND, AND BELIEVING WHAT IS FED TO YOU BY THE LEFT WING. UNFORTUNATELY, THERE ARE LOT OF PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE SPECTRUM WHO DO THIS SO YOU ARE NOT ALONE.

Couple of points: (1) I am not downplaying the fact that Bush has been a complete failure;

Your brand of descriptors says otherwise.

(2) I would not patronize – I honestly do not understand the law when it comes to issues such as impeachment (and I would not want to speak of that which i know not enough, aka Mr. James);

I’ll nutshell it for you. The bush administration attacked and currently occupies a sovereign nation which absolutely did not pose an imminent threat nor did it attack us. bush has not acknowledged this, nor does he acknowledged the UN regarding this situation.

Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11. The highjackers were mostly Saudi, yet we didn’t attack Saudi Arabia. Why? It’s tantamount to being attacked by Canada and invading Mexico.

If you’re going to engage in a discussion on any political board, it’s prudent to gain some measure of knowledge beforehand rather than constantly having recent history spoon-fed you by the very people you claim to disagree with. You presume to dictate your position on Iraq/Iran without a clue about how bush has eviscerated international law. I honestly don’t have time nor the inclination to school you on what is easily attainable on the web for any 12-year-old. That realization also casts doubt on your “open-minded truthseeker” claim.

3) some policies have worked, many others have not. I believe Bush has kept us from another terrorist attack,

Then you are rudimentarily naive bordering on deficiency. bush presided over 9-11. rice rejected taking action before 9-11. bush’s own daily briefing in August was ignored. bush sat in a classroom (and hung around for something close to 1.5 hours) exposing elementary children to a possible terrorist attack on 9-11. He allowed the bin Laden family to fly out of restricted airspace with little FBI intervention, then lied about it. He stonewalled the 9-11 investigation at every turn…

that his tax cuts have made life a little easier for the working middle class

You really are entirely out of your depth with your illusory faith; either that or you gain your information from Limbaugh or Fox. Making a statement like that suggests a dubious command of rational judgment.

and that he has made much needed efforts to hold school districts and educators accountable.

bush has merely steered policy to failed random testing in NCLB, a vastly underfunded mandate that has not only been widely discredited but bush had to hire whore-journos to pimp the plan, undisclosed and unbeknownst to readers, a.k.a. Armstrong Williams. One would imagine that a successful plan wouldn’t require such shenanigans. Add to that how Neil bush, enabled by Jeb bush, is profiting handsomely from NCLB…surprise, surprise.

I’m afraid, indy, you’ve dosed-up on O’Reilly and Fox and wandered smack into the reality superhighway. Your “beliefs” are nothing more than verbatim republican talking points. Your “help me understand” act is disingenuous to the point of absurdity (nobody could be that godawfully stupid or uninformed unless they were really trying, or they were republican.) You’re a cartoon, indy, a republican cartoon…the worst kind.

Couple of points: (1) I am not downplaying the fact that Bush has been a complete failure; (2) I would not patronize – I honestly do not understand the law when it comes to issues such as impeachment (and I would not want to speak of that which i know not enough, aka Mr. James); and (3) some policies have worked, many others have not. I believe Bush has kept us from another terrorist attack, that his tax cuts have made life a little easier for the working middle class (the economy is another issue), and that he has made much needed efforts to hold school districts and educators accountable.

You are unwilling to accept any opinion other than one which supports death to George Bush and everyone in his administration for their traitorous acts against our country.

I’ve said no such thing, but bush and the administration rates arrest and trial and as harsh a sentence as can be ruled. If that’s capital punishment, no faction would deserve it more.

I am not sure what you would like me to say.

Reread my last post, you have yet to acknowledge this administrations gross distortions and the illegality of this war.

So, I apologize for not getting a little more enraged at Bush for his failures as president and in Iraq.

That’s disingenuous. You call wiping out 1 million people from a sovereign nation that did not attack us a mere “failure as president?” That’s akin to equating bush’s massive and murderous incompetence during Katrina as a “miscalculation.”

Such dialogue techniques may serve to rephrase the astronomically deadly stupidity of this administration in your mind, but it only reveals your preference to downplay the horrific legacy that is the hubris and greed of the republican perspective.

I will address only a couple fo your points now: (1) the illegality of the war. For one, I am no legal scholar, but are we holding him to U.S. law, international law, or both?

Patronizing me will not bolster your position. If I have to chew your intellectual food for you regarding bush’s pathetic attempts to link saddam and osama, yellow cake, etc, I will be much less polite. Read PNAC, and you will get a chilling dose of the republican “master plan,” authored by the very architects who fostered the Iraq war.

Two, I don’t agree with all of Bush’s dometsic policies but some have been good/some bad, like all presidents.

There have been none. The dollar is roughly half the worth of the british pound, Billions are unaccounted-for in Iraq and the administration. Businesses are folding at an unprecedented rate and the jobs created don’t amount to squat. Your drive-by generalities don’t stand up to scrutiny. The American “brand” is routinely avoided elsewhere in the world.

You will get no argument from me that Bush, as of now, stands as one of the least effective presidents of our time

“Least effective?” You again employ the extreme understatement phraseology to diminish the enormous deadly ineptitude that bush’s presidency represents. No other president has fostered more terrorists, killed more people, or abandoned more citizens than this modern-day failure. Your preference in repeatedly blunting bush’s obvious criminality appears to be a throwback to the Nixonian “mistakes were made” rhetoric.

It isn’t working now either. Your command of the legion of bush crimes and dearth of credibility is sorely lacking if you still extend them a grain of plausibility.

You are unwilling to accept any opinion other than one which supports death to George Bush and everyone in his administration for their traitorous acts against our country. I have been more than critical of our efforts in Iraq and of Bush himself. I am not sure what you would like me to say. I am a pretty even-keeled guy (you should know that by my posts). I have been even keeled when I have been attacked by you and others (some of whom would mlike to see me and my family dead). So, I apologize for not getting a little more enraged at Bush for his failures as president and in Iraq.

I will address only a couple fo your points now: (1) the illegality of the war. For one, I am no legal scholar, but are we holding him to U.S. law, international law, or both? If he is indeed guilty of this as you claim, and you may be right (I wouldn’t know – I do not have a strong overview of U.S. and intenrational law when it comes to matters such as these), why hasn’t he been impeached? I would think that if it could have been done legally, it would have been. Two, I don’t agree with all of Bush’s dometsic policies but some have been good/some bad, like all presidents.

You will get no argument from me that Bush, as of now, stands as one of the least effective presidents of our time, and I personally, will be glad when we hae new leadership. What more do you want? If you wnat me to say that he should be executed, sorry – won’t do that. And, I wouldn’t… regardless of who the president is – democrat or republican.

Okay indy…You choose to trust the administration’s word on anything. I find that disturbing to the extreme. This administration has lied continually, not about few things, but most things. The sources you quote concerning Iraq are both directed to do so and provided “intelligence” by the same administration that created “the office of special plans.”

By the same administration that cited “curveball” as a credible source.

By the same administration that cited debunked “aluminum tubes” as evidence.

By the same administration that tried to sell weather balloon vans as “mobile biological weapons vehicles.”

By the same administration that told people of New York that the air was safe.

By the same administration that remained on vacation during Katrina.

By the same administration that threw a lavish $60 MILLION dollar inaugural in 2004 while simultaneously denying our troops vital armor.

By the same administration that has not only not admitted that this war in Iraq is illegal, but has constantly lied and manipulated and spun outright propaganda to justify the indefensible. Oh, they’ve also wiped out over 1 million people while reducing our military to accepting felons and 50-somethings.

By the same administration that has branded America as a world torture state and human rights abuser.

By the same administration that suspended habeas corpus.

By the same administration that brought us Gonzales, Armstrong Williams, Karl Rove, faulty e-voting machines, cronyism, “heckuva job, brownie,” K-street project, Abramoff, Marianas, Blackwater, Halliburton, the list is endless.

By the same administration/republican-led congress that gave us the medicare doughnut-hole idiocy with a three-hour dead-of-night arm-twisting session to force a secretive, way-over budget albatross down America’s throat.

This republican clown of a “president” has to publicly lie about playing golf. bush would have to improve just to rate “feeble.”

Your claim to want to “explore the truth” is both disingenuous and fatuous. You avoid acknowledging the illegality of the war, ignore completely the staggering and repeated deceptions and paucity of credibility of this administration, preferring instead to couch the situation in terms akin to simple mismanagement rather than recognize the horrific dishonesty authored by this administration to abuse and frighten a shocked and benumbed nation into a war of choice, then compromise America’s image with more lies, torture, cronyism, recalls, false terror alerts, bureaucratic nightmares, death squads, false imprisonment, beating deaths, rape, etc….

indy, you’re much too feckless to discover truth. If, after the unconscionable conduct of the republicans and their circus-of-the-damned administration, you’re still attaching any credibility to their “official story,” I’ve got a bridge I can sell you….

cheap!…really….

I probably am not a true conservative when it comes to issues of foreign policy. I hold certain beliefs dear to my heart and those beliefs do not align with a liberal agenda. And by the way, if you saw me, you would know i have no hair to pull out!!!

A true conservative would put aside his/her ego and bruised feeling. They would admit this administration has been a failure for the american people. They would understand the need to regroup and rebrand (like the republicans do every 10 to 20 years).

Those who seek to get me banned: I am hee seeking the same things you do (as listed on this website) and I am against those thing you are against (as listed here on this webiste). I have not hidden the fact that I am conservative but I am not for a radical right-wing agenda, just as I am against a radical left-wing agenda. I have been more than civil, despite being called every name in the book and with death wished upon me. I am sorry if our conservative President has not fulfilled your expectations (join the club) but that does not mean that all conservatives are (1) terrible, corrupted people, (2) that we deserve to die, (3) that we are stcophants and incapable of free -thinking, (4) are patriotic and (5) are incapable of reason. THese are just a few of things I have been accused of during my short time here. I ask all of you to review my posts and to also review the hatred directed towards me. Is this right? I am willing to let bygones be bygones but please let’s not wish death upon anyone, and remember that we are all Americans.

I am at a loss for words. This obviously may not be the place or forum for serious dialogue. I don’t know. I made the assumption that we are all Americans and we all want whats best for America. I have been more than critical of the war in Iraq. Am I going to come out and say that our President should be hung? Do I think everyone who voted for him should be hung? No. I find it very disturbing that we cannot discuss these issues. Further, you calling me a traitor is mean-spirited (i.e., may death come early to you and yours). I suspect that there are a fair number of people here that do not agree with this sentiment or your tact. I find your approach to dialogue to be no different than those on the far right, those you claim are undeserving of representative power. This is America and we have the right to free speech and I will exercise that right within the rules of the board, and I will do so without beligerence, but instead seeking truth and conceding when – in discourse – someone presents a strong argument. Can you agree to do the same?

indyjones Says:

There is no disagreement between us on this hell. The mission was never clearly defined, and it has just been handled poorly. For this reason, I do not want him to engage in another conflict. The disagreement I was engaged in with the others involved the evidence for Iranian inteference.

The mission was never clearly defined. Forget that is was illegal, forget that it was unwarranted, forget that it was unfounded, all this traitor can see is that it was not clearly defined. As if the plan calling for the striking of X in 72 hrs, and then Y in 48 after and blah, blah, blah, was all that was needed. Not the whole Rumsfeldian clusterfu(k that was Shock and Awe in Iraq.
He is a sychophantic bullshitter. REPORT HIS ASS and get him bounced before he caused anymore usually critical minds to feel that “well, he is being so nice and friendly,” as he slips the koolaid in between the cracks of the firewall infecting more than just those it actually touches.

Do not talk to nor feed the trolls.

And todd, you are just useless as a human.

If you are truly looking for answers instead of angles and spin read this.

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/85458/

and then search more.