ThinkFast: May 20, 2008
ThinkFast: May 20, 2008
VoteVets Action Fund will launch a new ad today featuring veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan, pressuring Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) to support the 21st Century GI Bill. “‘McCain thinks covering a fraction of our education is enough,’ one veteran says. Another one, pictured recovering from head wounds, adds in a voiceover: ‘We didn’t give a fraction in Iraq. We gave 100 percent.’”
115: The number of lobbyists John McCain has either working for him or raising money for him. So far, three of them have resigned. The remaining lobbyists “represent all kinds of industries,” foreign regimes, and are some of McCain’s closest advisers.
“President Bush has apologized to Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki for an American soldier shooting at a Quran, the prime minister’s office said.”
The Louisiana National Guard unit called home after Hurricane Katrina “was ordered yesterday to prepare to return to Iraq for its second tour.” The unit is part of about 40,000 active-duty and National Guard soldiers who Pentagon officials notified yesterday that they will be “deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan in the upcoming months and years.”
“Just a few years after the Republican Party launched a highly publicized diversity effort, the GOP is heading into the 2008 election without a single minority candidate with a plausible chance of winning a campaign for the House, the Senate or governor,” notes the Politico. This dry spell is the longest since the 1980s.
“Only one in five detainees in U.S. custody in Iraq are members of the main extremist groups fighting U.S. and Iraqi forces, while many of the rest can be reintegrated back into society, according to U.S. military statistics and interviews.” The U.S. military indicated it would seek to release more of the average men caught in the fighting.
Blackwater “has run into heavy local resistance to its efforts to set up military and law-enforcement training facilities near San Diego’s major Navy bases.” Mayor Jerry Sanders “is moving to stop the company over permit problems,” stating it didn’t get the “scrutiny appropriate for a facility for firearms training.”
Sen. Edward Kennedy (D-MA) is “not expected back at work in the Senate this week” as doctors continue to search for the cause of a weekend seizure that put him in the hospital. Kennedy’s office says that “he’s doing well and anxious to get back to work,” but doctors are still evaluating him and his staff expects “the senator to remain in the hospital for a couple of days.”
Mired in scandal, Rep. Vito Fossella (R-NY) has announced that he will not be seeking re-election this fall. In his statement, he cited the “need to concentrate on healing the wounds that I have caused to my wife and family.”
And finally: In the next month, at least two groups are planning on holding ice cream socials for staffers on Capitol Hill. However, organizing these events is tricky under the new ethics regulations. For example, attendees will “get no more than a single scoop at a time. … Cones and disposable cups with plastic spoons will be used — not fancy plates and silverware — for fear the event might turn into something approaching a meal, which would be forbidden.”
What did we miss? Let us know in the comments section.
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President Bush has apologized to Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki for an American soldier shooting at a Quran, the prime minister’s office said.
Naturally, the White House now denies that the Boy King apologized for anything:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/05/20/bush.quran/index.html
May 20th, 2008 at 9:05 amThere you have it. John Mycane will have government available for sale to the highest bidder.
May 20th, 2008 at 9:05 amDemocracy-isn't it becoming grand under the GOP neocon agenda?
Words are meaningless, esp. coming from the Sociopath in Chief. The soldier was transferred out of country. If he doesn't pull serious time, and soon, expect to see a lot of copycats seeking a get-out-of-jail card.
May 20th, 2008 at 9:09 amPerhaps I'm naive, but I gotta believe venal, senile war mongers are a minority.
May 20th, 2008 at 9:13 amBu$h APOLOGIZED to a A-rab? He's an appeaser!
May 20th, 2008 at 9:16 amchaffhead Says
May 20th, 2008 at 9:07 am
(several pointless links just taking up space)
_____________________________________________
FLAGGED
If you want to be taken seriously, post a link worthy of some intelligent discussion and include some thoughtful comment of your own. I'm getting a bit tired of the "blast of buckshot" troll approach of posting a fistful of links with no comment. That isn't what this thread is for.
May 20th, 2008 at 9:17 amKeeping Secrets: In Presidential Memo, A New Designation for Classifying Information
Sometime in the next few years, if a memorandum signed by President Bush this month ever goes into effect, one government official talking to another about information on terrorists will have to begin by saying: “What I am about to tell you is controlled unclassified information enhanced with specified dissemination.”
Bush’s memorandum, signed on the eve of his daughter Jenna’s wedding, introduced “Controlled Unclassified Information” as a new government category that will replace “Sensitive but Unclassified.” The information could be, for example, the steps taken to protect power plants from terrorists.
Left undefined are which laws or policies generated the requirement for protecting such information, and which interests are pertinent. But Bush’s memo does refer to the “global nature of the threats facing the United States” and to the need to ensure that the “entire network of defenders be able to share information more rapidly” while protecting “sensitive information, information privacy, and other legal rights of Americans.”
The president declared that the purpose of the new classification is “to standardize practices and thereby improve the sharing of information, not to classify or declassify new or additional information.” But some critics described it as continuing an expansion of secrecy in government and a potential bureaucratic nightmare.
Michael Clark, a contributing editor to the blog Daily Kos, who first wrote about the Bush memorandum, said the White House “seems to have used the crafting of new rules as an opportunity to expand the range of government secrecy.” Steven Aftergood, director of the Federation of American Scientists’ Project on Government Secrecy, described it as a “not even half-baked” exercise in policymaking.
The Archives will establish “enforcement mechanisms and penalties for improper handling of CUI.” The “controlled” classification “may inform,” but will not determine, whether information can be made public in response to a Freedom of Information Act request.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/05/19/9058/
And the hits just keep on coming. Controlling even more information so that the little people won’t know what is going on. George just doesn’t want to trouble us with pesky things like starting another war, expanding the Vice-Presidents power and rewriting history. It sounds an awful lot like Bush is setting himself up for when he leaves office in January. “Specified Dissemination”: Making sure all of his bases are covered in advance.
May 20th, 2008 at 9:18 amWow! All it took was to shoot up their book instead of all the innocent people.....Seem's to me if our sane thinking people had thought of this when bull shit bush started his genocide there woulden't be over one million men, women, and children over there killed.....We are long past the time but maybe we should do it now, put a bulett in a bible and a quran and call it done...End the bush war's and bring all our troop's home......Blessings
May 20th, 2008 at 9:20 am“Only one in five detainees in U.S. custody in Iraq are members of the main extremist groups fighting U.S. and Iraqi forces, while many of the rest can be reintegrated back into society, according to U.S. military statistics and interviews.” The U.S. military indicated it would seek to release more of the average men caught in the fighting.
And how long were they detained on bogus charges?
May 20th, 2008 at 9:22 amWay to win hearts and minds...NOT.
Behind the Rise in Prices: A Plan to Torpedo the Dollar
This Is What Happened to Our Land, Not “NoamChomskyLand.”
Who do you think was one of the Bush Administration’s key players on the economy? His name is Jim Wilkinson. He helped organize the GOP protest/obstruction of the Miami election recount in 2000. A reporter from Texas said he used techniques first perfected by Stalin. But at a crucial moment in the history of the western world, Mr. “I work in the shadows” Wilkinson became chief of staff to Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson.
Operative Wilkinson was then given the assignment of monitoring the world’s financial markets in a secret operation modeled no doubt on the great intelligence plan that produced the Iraq War.
As Mike Whitney reported at the end of October in 2006, the US was then engineering the drop in the dollar to “improve competitiveness” — ie subsidize US exports in a flawed attempt to reduce the growing balance of trade gap. The result was summed up in the headline: “The U.S. Dollar is kaput. Confidence in the currency is eroding by the day.”
“The financial crisis that we now face was created by design.” As oil prices climb, the public is angry. And who do they mostly blame? The oil companies and the oil producing states, of course. They have no clue that this crisis was the consequence of decisions made by the Bush Administration to devalue the dollar with its “crisis manager” Jim Wilkinson playing a central role.
Political writer Jerry Policoff questioned the “politicized polls” on who is responsible for the oil hikes. He noted that most people and pollsters don’t realize that the fall of the dollar precipitated all of this. I asked him if he thought this squeeze had been orchestrated.
“I don’t think there is any doubt about that, and the Saudis said as much when Bush asked them to rev up production to bring down the price. Their reaction was pretty much that the U.S. should stop undermining the value of its own dollar before asking other countries to take a financial hit on oil.”
The President’s own bombast was also faulted for driving oil prices higher, as Bill Scher noted, “Bush’s saber-rattling with Iran raises concerns of war and more disruption of oil supplies, which prompts speculators to raise prices.”
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/05/19/9047/
We can thank George Bush once again for another confirmed kill. Mission Accomplished.
May 20th, 2008 at 9:24 amA Secret List of U.S Citizens to Detain Under Martial Law
In the spring of 2007, a retired senior official in the U.S. Justice Department sat before Congress and told a story so odd and ominous, it could have sprung from the pages of a pulp political thriller. The bureaucrat was James Comey, John Ashcroft's second-in-command at the Department of Justice during Bush's first term.
Yet in his testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee, he described how he had grown increasingly uneasy reviewing the Bush administration's various domestic surveillance and spying programs. He did say, however, that he and Ashcroft had discussed the program in March 2004, trying to decide whether it was legal under federal statutes. Shortly before the certification deadline, Ashcroft fell ill with pancreatitis, making Comey acting attorney general, and Comey opted not to certify the program. When he communicated his decision to the White House, Bush's men told him, in so many words, to take his concerns and stuff them in an undisclosed location.
Apparently, at the behest of President Bush himself, the White House tried, in Comey's words, "to take advantage of a very sick man," sending Chief of Staff Andrew Card and then–White House counsel Alberto Gonzales on a mission to Ashcroft's sickroom to persuade the heavily doped attorney general to override his deputy. Apprised of their mission, Comey, accompanied by a full security detail, jumped in his car, raced through the streets of the capital, lights blazing, and "literally ran" up the hospital stairs to beat them there.
Minutes later, Gonzales and Card arrived with an envelope filled with the requisite forms. Ashcroft, even in his stupor, did not fall for their heavy-handed ploy. "I'm not the attorney general," Ashcroft told Bush's men. "There"—he pointed weakly to Comey—"is the attorney general." Gonzales and Card were furious, departing without even acknowledging Comey's presence in the room. The following day, the classified domestic spying program that Comey found so disturbing went forward at the demand of the White House—"without a signature from the Department of Justice attesting as to its legality," he testified.
Few Americans—professional journalists included—know anything about so-called Continuity of Government (COG) programs, so it's no surprise that the president's passing reference received almost no attention. COG resides in a nebulous legal realm, encompassing national emergency plans that would trigger the takeover of the country by extra-constitutional forces—and effectively suspend the republic. In short, it's a road map for martial law.
Sources familiar with the program say that the government's data gathering has been overzealous and probably conducted in violation of federal law and the protection from unreasonable search and seizure guaranteed by the Fourth Amendment.
http://www.radaronline.com/from-the-magazine/2008/05/government_surveillance_homeland_security_main_core_01-print.php
**Scary what the government may have in a database about us**
May 20th, 2008 at 9:32 amFreedom Rebel Says:
As Mike Whitney reported at the end of October in 2006, the US was then engineering the drop in the dollar to “improve competitiveness” — ie subsidize US exports in a flawed attempt to reduce the growing balance of trade gap. The result was summed up in the headline: “The U.S. Dollar is kaput. Confidence in the currency is eroding by the day.”
Well, talk about the chickens coming home to roost.
We just structurally-adjusted ourselves with a taste of the Washington Consensus medicine! Devaluing the currency, deregulating the banking industry, reducing domestic spending, and leaving inflation for the market to correct - that's all the same medicine the IMF has been prescribing to developing countries for decades, with the result of keeping these countries mired in poverty. Looks like it's well on its way to having the same effect here. Soon we'll be a third-world nation with a first-world GDP.
May 20th, 2008 at 9:34 amBlacklisted by the Bush government
Spying on Americans without warrants, charges based on secret evidence, a small town divided by fear. Welcome to the world of Bush's "specially designated global terrorists."
May. 19, 2008 | One day in March 2004, Soliman Hamd Al-Buthe, a former member of Saudi Arabia's national basketball team and a government official in the city of Riyadh, picked up his phone for an urgent call with two American lawyers in Washington, D.C. Most of the call concerned a growing confrontation between the U.S. government and the Al-Haramain Islamic Foundation in Ashland, Ore., the U.S. branch of a global Saudi Arabian charity organization under investigation for possible links to terrorism. Al-Buthe had been an advisor to Al-Haramain from 1995 to 2002 and was a member of the Oregon foundation's board of directors. Just weeks prior to the call, the foundation -- a respected fixture in the Ashland community run for years by an Iranian-American Muslim named Pete Seda -- had been raided by U.S. law enforcement agents.
Because of their involvement with Al-Haramain, Al-Buthe and Seda were also entangled in a lawsuit filed against dozens of prominent Saudis by families of victims of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. During the call, Al-Buthe and his attorneys talked about the funds needed for his legal defense. "We had a problem of transferring money," he says, "so we were thinking of new ways" of getting funds to Washington.
snip...
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/05/19/al_haramain/print.html
**Long article but worth the read. Smacks of McCarthyism.
May 20th, 2008 at 9:41 am#12 hussein toasterhead Says:
Well, talk about the chickens coming home to roost.
We just structurally-adjusted ourselves with a taste of the Washington Consensus medicine! Devaluing the currency, deregulating the banking industry, reducing domestic spending, and leaving inflation for the market to correct - that’s all the same medicine the IMF has been prescribing to developing countries for decades, with the result of keeping these countries mired in poverty. Looks like it’s well on its way to having the same effect here. Soon we’ll be a third-world nation with a first-world GDP.
I couldn't agree more. This was suppose to have helped by diverting more money to banking and corporations. We see how that all worked out. The problem is whenever they start thinking, we have to worry.
May 20th, 2008 at 9:45 am“Just a few years after the Republican Party launched a highly publicized diversity effort, the GOP is heading into the 2008 election without a single minority candidate...'
Wait a minute, isn't geriatric a minority? The Geritol Kid must rate as somewhat of a minority.
McCain; older than dirt & similar in texture
May 20th, 2008 at 9:49 amWhen I read that Bush apologized.... I stopped reading the article. I knew it was BS, that petulant POS would never apologize for anything. In his mind he has never done anything wrong. And perhaps in the minds of some of the more dedicated sycophants. The rest of the world sees a murderer, liar and overall evil loser, but hey, as long as Bush thinks he has done no wrong, carry on! Or is that carrion that he is spreading?
May 20th, 2008 at 9:52 am#13 And the beat goes on Says:
Blacklisted by the Bush government
Spying on Americans without warrants, charges based on secret evidence, a small town divided by fear. Welcome to the world of Bush’s “specially designated global terrorists.”
Spying on Americans, and the article I posted about the secret lists, I agree it definitely is like McCarthyism.
May 20th, 2008 at 9:56 amOne of the sources for the article about the secret lists said that there are over 8 million names they have compiled. We thought those days were long gone and buried. Surprise, not anymore. Scary times we live in. Great post and the beat goes on!
Freedom Rebel Says:
I couldn’t agree more. This was suppose to have helped by diverting more money to banking and corporations. We see how that all worked out. The problem is whenever they start thinking, we have to worry.
May 20th, 2008 at 9:45 am
_____
Yup - it worked perfectly. A lot of money fell into a couple of very deep pockets.
May 20th, 2008 at 10:01 amAn American staff sergeant -- a sniper section leader -- used a Quran for target practice earlier this month.
The sergeant was relieved of duty as a section leader "with prejudice," officially reprimanded by his commanding general, dismissed from his regiment and redeployed -- reassigned to the United States.
Watch for more soldiers shooting up Korans to get back home safely.
May 20th, 2008 at 10:05 am"115: The number of lobbyists John McCain has either working for him..."
Considering the fact that many on McCan'ts team were working for "free" for quite a while when the campaign was in dyre financial straits, is it such a stretch to think that perhaps other favors were promised/alluded to these lobbyists for their generous contributions of time and effort in McCan'ts most desperate political times? It seems more so day by day that Smilin' John has sold his soul to the corporate/neocon/lobbyist bloc. It is becoming clear just who his "friends" are.
May 20th, 2008 at 10:07 am“President Bush has apologized to Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki for an American soldier shooting at a Quran, the prime minister’s office said.”
I'm sorry, but this has to be the most pathetic story i've heard in a long time. You apologize to your puppet regime for one of your soldiers aiming a bullet at Islam's Holy Book. Yet, you kill one million Iraqis and that barely even merits a "whoops"?
This symbolic idiocy is so typical of Bush.
Ridiculous, Repugnant and Typically Republican.
May 20th, 2008 at 10:13 am“President Bush has apologized to Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki for an American soldier shooting at a Quran, the prime minister’s office said.”
__________________________________________
From CNN:
"the White House later said Bush expressed "deep concern" and stopped short of apologizing"
-- Of course. Bush never apologizes for anything. Why Maliki would even dream otherwise is anybody's guess.
al-Hashimi said.
"[Vice President Hashimi]: I have asked that first this apology be officially documented; second a guarantee from the U.S. military to inflict the maximum possible punishment on this soldier so it would be a deterrent for the rest of the soldiers in the future."
-- Dream on. Bush won't officially document an apology he never made, and the soldier just got rewarded by going home, creating an incentive for others.
Bush's strategy is to continue p!ssing off the Iraqi people while he bloviates about "winning their hearts and minds." And Iran is next.
God help us all.
May 20th, 2008 at 10:19 amHow about the Iraqis devise a deal by which the Bush administration must abide :
Shoot as many Quar'an's as you want. Just don't rape any more of our women or kill any more of civilians.
I understand that some Iraqis are deeply spiritual and the Qur'an is the most important book in the world to them, however, it's just a book.
May 20th, 2008 at 10:24 amAmericans should pledge that, if & when Bush & Cheney invade Iran, impeachment proceedings will be fast tracked.
We need to stand up & make a statement here, or they just might be insane enough to not only invade Iran, but initiate martial law right here in the good old US of A.
Had enough?
May 20th, 2008 at 10:26 am"GOP is heading into the 2008 election without a single minority candidate "
Are you sure? I'm sure I saw one who had an very dark tan.
May 20th, 2008 at 10:29 amArt Says:“GOP is heading into the 2008 election without a single minority candidate ”
Are you sure? I’m sure I saw one who had an very dark tan.
Art, that would have been Boner, the minority leader in the House. Boner tans about 12 hours a day, which really cuts into his work time. Oh well, one has to have priorities...
May 20th, 2008 at 10:35 amZimzone Says:
"Americans should pledge that, if & when Bush & Cheney invade Iran, impeachment proceedings will be fast tracked."
I would take it a step further, Zimzone.
May 20th, 2008 at 10:39 amCongress should announce that if Bush/Cheney strike Iran unprovoked, impeachment procedings will begin immediately AND that they will both be held in Inherent Contempt in a cell on the Hill and that the House will stay in session until it is over at which time Bush/Cheney can be handed over to the Hague to face War Crimes charges.
I've posted this quote by the Repubs most popular guy to be compared to and it never hets old with this Administration:
"The provision of the Constitution giving the war-making power to Congress was dictated, as I understand it, by the following reasons. Kings had always been involving and impoverishing their people in wars, pretending generally, if not always, that the good of the people was the object. This, our Convention understood to be the most oppressive of all Kingly oppressions; and they resolved to so frame the Constitution that no one man should hold the power of bringing this oppression upon us."
-Abrahm Lincoln
May 20th, 2008 at 10:42 amVery strange. TP had a story about Barbie Doll Perino denying the imminent attack on Iran that was stated in a Palestinian (I think) newspaper up for about a minute. I tried to post and the story went poof and disappeared.
May 20th, 2008 at 10:45 amCorrection: It was the Jerusalem Post. Still odd that the Perino denial story was pulled after a very short time and no posts.
May 20th, 2008 at 10:51 amHow about this, TP? Just days after Dubya compared talking to Hamas to appeasing the Nazis, an Israeli government minister has admitted they are in contact with Hamas:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/985012.html
May 20th, 2008 at 10:59 amcavjam Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The guy who shoots the Quran is an idiot, but what punishment do you think would be appropriate it we found a muslim shooting a Bible?
I do see your point about 'get-out-of-jail card'.
May 20th, 2008 at 11:00 amRE : Perino.
Anyone else feel sorry for her in a "wow, you're slow.." kinda way??
I don't think American to attack Iran stories are new. In fact, they've been with us now for two years. If the US does go into Iran, which could be likely given the problems in Lebanon right now with Hezb'allah controlling Beirut must like Al-Sadr controls Baghdad, it's more likely going to be one of those "breaking news" on CNN stories rather than long drawn out public spectacle like Iraq.
May 20th, 2008 at 11:00 am27, A Patriot Acting Says: I would take it a step further, Zimzone.
Agreed. Additional steps over & above impeachment would most likely be necessary. I believe we could get some Iraq invasion Veterans to 'guard the cage', so to speak.
Fox News could interview Bush & Cheney from behind their bars.
Maybe Jon Stewart or Colbert could even squeeze in some airtime.
I know, I know, but a man can wish...
May 20th, 2008 at 11:03 amI keep trying to post a link to a story about Clinton invoking statements by KKKarl Rove stating she is the stronger candidate. Why does TP keep sh**canning it with the moderation BS?
May 20th, 2008 at 11:09 amAnyway......with regards to Clinton/Rove article:
This has to signal a new depth of desperation. What Democrat in their right mind could possible construe a Rovian endorsement of viability as a positive thing?
May 20th, 2008 at 11:11 amAnother Arab Blogger Jailed
DAMASCUS, Syria (AP) -- A human rights group says a 24-year-old Syrian blogger has been convicted and sentenced to three years in prison on charges of undermining the prestige of the state and
weakening national morale.
The rights group says Bayassi's sentence was commuted to three
May 20th, 2008 at 11:19 amyears after an original sentence of six years. Bayassi was arrested last May in northwest Syria for surfing sites of Syrian opposition groups and posting comments online.
I'm just listening to John McCain speak in Miami telling us how the Columbia Free Trade agreement will help American companies. Does he not understand that companies are not people?
May 20th, 2008 at 11:31 amWhether it is the right move for America or not, here is the possible consequence of leaving Iraq unprepared to govern and protect itself:
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/12/17/5860/
http://my.opera.com/~Keilarina~/blog/why-why-why
May 20th, 2008 at 11:32 am· Basra has become so lawless that in the last three months 45 women have been killed for being “immoral” because they were not fully covered or because they may have given birth outside wedlock;
May 20th, 2008 at 11:33 amAs British forces finally handed over security in Basra province, marking the end of 4½ years of control in southern Iraq, Major General Jalil Khalaf, the new police commander, said the occupation had left him with a situation close to mayhem. “They left me militia, they left me gangsters, and they left me all the troubles in the world,” he said in an interview for Guardian Films and ITV.
May 20th, 2008 at 11:34 amHe said the most shocking aspect of the breakdown of law and order in Basra was the murder of women for being unIslamic. “They are being killed because they are accused of behaving in an immoral way. When they kill them they put underwear and indecent clothes on them.”
In his office Khalaf showed the Guardian a computer holding the files of 48 unidentified women. “Some of them have even been killed with their children because their killer says that they come out of an adulterous relationship,” he said.
May 20th, 2008 at 11:36 amSame thing happened for me. I posted #4 on this Think Fast thread about Clinton and her Rove remark with a link, and I see that it has a "Your comment is awaiting moderation" remark next to it. I guess that means that I am the only one who can see it. I guess that TP is still trying to defend Hillary's reputation by not allowing people visiting this site to see what she is up to. Do they really think that is going to make a difference?
May 20th, 2008 at 11:45 amSame thing happened for me. I posted #4 on this Think Fast thread about Clinton and her Rove remark with a link, and I see that it has a "Your comment is awaiting moderation" notation next to it. I guess that means that I am the only one who can see it. I guess that TP is still trying to defend Hillary's reputation by not allowing people visiting this site to see what she is up to. Do they really think that is going to make a difference?
May 20th, 2008 at 11:45 amYesmaaam backup, the British withdrew at least 95.5 years too early. What a disaster.
May 20th, 2008 at 11:52 amBacked UP says.
"The guy who shoots the Quran is an idiot, but what punishment do you think would be appropriate it we found a muslim shooting a Bible?"
A laurel, and hearty handshake??
May 20th, 2008 at 11:53 amSo, backup, what's the plan, other than an open-ended commitment? That's all you're offering, and the american people have rejected it soundly.
May 20th, 2008 at 11:55 amyep... MY try at it is also "awaiting moderation"...
olbermann had clips of her fantastic news last night...
May 20th, 2008 at 11:57 ambarfly.
Here's Bush's vision for the Middle East. Do a quick read thru.
I know you think he's an idiot. And his past policy has been a disaster.
But, if you consider this vision, what would you disagree with:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/05/18/bush.mideast/index.html
May 20th, 2008 at 11:59 am>but what punishment do you think would be appropriate it we >found a muslim shooting a Bible?”
uhhhhm...sorry pal...you wanted to give the iraqis "freedumbs"...well,,,that means that iraq is a sovereign nation and whatever punishements you or I think are apropriate for crimes commited in iraq is irrelevant. its for the iraqis to decide. if they want to pass a law making it a capitol offense to desecrate the koran, well, you've only got yourself to blame for giving them to power to make that decision..
May 20th, 2008 at 12:04 pm>Bush: Women, freedom key to Mideast prosperity
freedom? how did freedom work our for the palestinians? got hamas anyone? give the palestinians freedom, then call them terrorists when they exercise it.
and women? well, saddam's secular government, while far from a paradise, was a virtual bastion of womens rights in the middle east..they had many many more legal rights than most middle eastern women..these days, women in iraq are being beaten and set on fire for not wearing viels or wearing clothes that are too revealing......
May 20th, 2008 at 12:08 pm>But, if you consider this vision,
> what would you disagree with:
the fact its completely detached from reality. i have a vision that the worlds energy needs can be met by cow manure.
who could disagree with that vision?
perchance dear backedup, can you tell me roughly what percent of our arab allies are democracies?
May 20th, 2008 at 12:10 pmbarfly. I know there is a problem with open ended commitment. I concede that. But, what I also see is a problem (that many progressives won't acknowledge) of the consequence of premature withdrawl.
I am not saying that I know the answer. I am just suggesting that we need to weigh the price we are paying (billions of dollars every month and hundreds of soldiers a year) with a realistic forcast of the conditions we will leave behind. We may decide that the conditions in post withdrawl Basra (multiplied many fold) may be unavoidable and necessary to abandon. Or we may decide that the chances for a future stability (and the chance to forego genocidal conditions similar to Basra) may be worth staying for some additional period. I don't know.
But, I think it is possible to blame Bush for causing the mess in Iraq in the first place. Even impeach or imprision him and Cheney; While still committing to partner with the Iraqi people until they can stand on their own.
We are choosing whether we are going to stay to help foster some kind of democracy and human rights or whether we will leave the place to Iranian type theocracy.
I just believe that democracy with more human rights is a better state for Iraq and the world, than a more universal, intolerant theocracy in the middle east.
May 20th, 2008 at 12:12 pm>here is the possible consequence
>of leaving Iraq unprepared
>to govern and protect itself:
you mean to govern themselves the way YOU want them to...
you think foreign military force is going to create a culture where women have more rights? are you retarded?
May 20th, 2008 at 12:13 pm>I just believe that democracy with more human rights is a >better state for Iraq and the world, than a more universal, >intolerant theocracy in the middle east.
how did democracy in palestine work out for you?
May 20th, 2008 at 12:15 pmI don't know, but I could probably safely answer not enough.
I system of government where the people choose the leadership, seems to be an ideal we should promote.
May 20th, 2008 at 12:17 pmbackedup, do you think there is a potential positive outcome for every situation that exists in the world? do you think there is a positive outcome to bobbing for apples in a volcano? how about a positive outcome for dousing yourself in gasoline and lighting a match?
May 20th, 2008 at 12:18 pmCountdown Monday: Feel the Rove?
Posted: Monday, May 19, 2008 8:59 PM by Countdown
Filed Under: Blogging the Countdown
Campaign and Suffering: If you support or supported Senator Hillary Clinton...You may have blanched when she implied, back in New Hampshire, in a very Republican way that her challenger was not ready to lead on "Day One." You may have reeled when she claimed Fox News had treated her fairly while it was still insisting she might be a murderer. You may have staggered when her husband appeared on Rush Limbaugh's radio show. You may have keeled over when she accepted the endorsement of the big bankroll of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy, Richard Mellon Scaife. Well -- in our fifth story on the Countdown -- hold on to your dinner -- Senator Clinton has now embraced the number-crunching of the man who once said "you are entitled to your math, and I'm entitled to the math." She has today accepted the fruit of the calculator... of Karl Christian R.
May 20th, 2008 at 12:19 pmhttp://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/05/19/1042148.aspx
>A system of government where the people choose the >leadership, seems to be an ideal we should promote.
How did that concept work out in palestine? Glad Hamas is runnign the show there?
May 20th, 2008 at 12:19 pmChocolate Jesus.
It's possible that we could stay in Iraq for a hundred years and it still wouldn't rectify the situation.
But, I don't believe that. I believe that Iraqis are very much the same as everyone else. The have the same motivations and desires. If they are given an opportunity, they could flourish in an environment we're they could collectively choose their leadership and enjoy liberating human rights.
The officials that have been elected by the Iraqis want us to stay. They see the benefit of our presence. Don't they want what's best for their people?
May 20th, 2008 at 12:23 pmSure backup, many of us will read your links when hell freezes over. In one breath you're whining about "what if they shot up a bible" and the next one you're acting like you give a crap about what happens to Iraqis if we pull out. Unfreakingbelievable.
May 20th, 2008 at 12:23 pmi can't get the video to work... maybe you can:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/
May 20th, 2008 at 12:23 pmI accept it. If Hamas is doing the best job of governing the people, they will get the votes. As long as they support free elections in the future, other parties could compete for the chance to lead. I feel that self determination and access to more information will eventually lead to a better circumstance for us all.
May 20th, 2008 at 12:26 pm> But, I don’t believe that.
> I believe that Iraqis are very
> much the same as everyone else.
BY everyone else you're including the palestenians, who chose Hamas to represent them, right?
> Don’t they want what’s best for their people?
bwhahahahahhahahaahahahahah. jeez son, how old are you? you cant be out of your teens...please explain why you think people with power would care about anything but themselves? because they won a popularity contest? hahahah
May 20th, 2008 at 12:26 pmNice try Chocolate Jesus but as you can see communicating with backedup is a worthwhile as running your head into a wall. Unless of course you are actually trying to remove the wall.
May 20th, 2008 at 12:27 pm>I accept it.
hollow words. why do you support leaders who dont accept the results of democracy?
May 20th, 2008 at 12:30 pmif you say you support democracy but support leaders who refuse to, your a hypocrite. so what your saying is that if the people of iraq democratically choose to ally themselves with iran, have hezbolah run thier government, give thier tax dollar to al-queda, sell all thier oil to china and russia in euros, and impose the death penalty for anyone who descrates the koran, shaves thier beard, or lets thier wife out of the house without a view, you'd support that too, right?
>is a worthwhile as running your head into a wall.
i have a weakness for coversationalizing with right wingers capeable of forming complete sentences. i find them fascinating, i wish i could put them in a giant ant farm shaped like the death star and shake them around when they started getting smarmy...
May 20th, 2008 at 12:32 pmtime for beddie bye..night night..
May 20th, 2008 at 12:33 pmGoodnite, Chocolate Jesus.
Self determination and the promotion of human rights is a worthwhile idea. More worthwhile than abandoning them to intolerant Islamic theocracy that hasn't evolved since the Middle Ages. The world has change, what happens in the Middle East now has a great impact on the West. Do we ignore the area to theocracy that fosters ideas like martyrdom and jihad when the consequences have become so significant for the rest of us?
May 20th, 2008 at 12:45 pmSenate loads up war funding bill with other things
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080520/ap_on_go_co/congress_iraq_funding;_ylt=Atrs4Lf6EW13MyR99QbiYg2s0NUE
WASHINGTON - Despite numerous veto threats, senators in both parties have loaded up President Bush's war funding bill with a grab bag of domestic programs, including work permits for immigrant farm labor and heating subsidies for the poor.
What has to say McIWillCutPorkAndIWillSupportTheMilitaryCain?
May 20th, 2008 at 1:22 pm`Disaster fatigue' leads to drop in giving
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080519/ap_on_re_us/disaster_fatigue;_ylt=AnENrsqnVO5B8HFEPPPnOkes0NUE
NEW YORK - The numbers are almost too large to fathom, so many Americans stop trying. As bodies pile up in disaster after global disaster, even the most sympathetic souls can turn away.
Charities know this as "donor fatigue," but it might be more accurately described as disaster fatigue — the sense that these events are never-ending, uncontrollable and overwhelming.
So much the beloved concept that Republicans tout at every "socitalist welfare" thread: there isn't need for taxes, people already gives to charities. This demonstrated why taxes are needed: people is volatile and not always willing to help. Especially when disasters pile up.
May 20th, 2008 at 1:26 pmbackup Says:
Goodnite, Chocolate Jesus.
Self determination and the promotion of human rights is a worthwhile idea. More worthwhile than abandoning them to intolerant Islamic theocracy that hasn’t evolved since the Middle Ages. The world has change, what happens in the Middle East now has a great impact on the West. Do we ignore the area to theocracy that fosters ideas like martyrdom and jihad when the consequences have become so significant for the rest of us?
May 20th, 2008 at 12:45 pm Recommend (0) | Report Abuse
You're speaking of Iran or Mormons in Texas?
May 20th, 2008 at 1:32 pmIs THAT what you call shock and awe bombing, invasion, irresponsible occupation leading to lawless looting and massive violence? Wow, that's not what I'd call it.
Woah, back up there, Mr. backup. Let's go back to self determination. Remember that? It was just one sentence previous in your statement. If the Iraqis self determine that they'd like an Islamic theocracy, then so be it. Democracy hasn't changed much since ancient Greece, either, by the way. It's probably gotten worse, actually.
May 20th, 2008 at 1:55 pmWe won't turn a blind eye to mormon abuse of women, we shouldn't be willing to turn a blind eye to Islamic abuse of women.
Consider this: Progressives have come to a point where they are arguing against democracy and human rights.
Imagine going back to 1850 and saying, we either don't think it's possible or worth it to enable blacks freedom or human rights.
Imagine going back to women's suffage and saying; why should we support the rights of women? It's too difficult or too costly or it's not the culture of the people or it's someone elses problem.
Could their be a more 'progressive' issue?
May 20th, 2008 at 2:30 pmbackup Says:
You're obviously under the mistaken impression that your "concerns" are something to be seriously considered.
They aren't.
You have forfeited the right to act concerned about the Iraq situation. When will you internalize that? You and your ilk were perfectly willing to accept collateral damage in the invasion, so crying those big fat crocodile tears for the poor Iraqis - and what might occur after we leave - is the apex of hypocrisy. You should only post your apologies for your past synchophancy, for in truth, you have forfeited the right to be taken seriously.
May 20th, 2008 at 2:46 pmbarfly. you seem content to point to the past to justify your intended abandonment of the Iraqis to genocide, rape, and human rights violations.
That's no better for the Iraqis than Bush's misguide invasion.
May 20th, 2008 at 2:50 pmbarfly. you seem content to point to the past to justify your intended abandonment of the Iraqis to genocide, rape, and human rights violations.
Your fake concern for the Iraqis is touching. We all know you guys couldn't be bothered with such concerns before the invasion, so now, it's too little too late. As before, you have forfeited your right to be concerned, when you sat silent during the invasion, and when scores of Iraqis were killed.
May 20th, 2008 at 4:39 pmbarfly.
my concern for the Iraqis could be absolutely insincere (it's not), but even if it were, it wouldn't make the genocide, rape and human rights abuses any less real.
Your logic isn't making much sense.
May 20th, 2008 at 5:54 pmThat silly little white guy scared of the black guys cracks me up
May 20th, 2008 at 6:57 pmmy concern for the Iraqis could be absolutely insincere (it’s not),
Yes, it is. And you have squandered your right to be heard.
but even if it were, it wouldn’t make the genocide, rape and human rights abuses any less real.
And you guys are responsible. You lackeys had your chance to show some spine, and you folded, en masse. Every time you comment, I'm going to be there, pointing out that you have no standing to express your "concern" after kowtowing for half a decade to your hero. You're a phony, who thinks he can fool others by making "concerned" comments.
Your logic isn’t making much sense.
And you swallowed the invasion scam, whole. I would say look at your own cognitive flaws, because they're the largest in the room.
May 20th, 2008 at 7:28 pmLet me say it simply, backup; you have forfeited your right to debate the Iraq issue, because of your past bad judgement.
Is that clear enough?
May 20th, 2008 at 7:34 pmbarfly.
I could imagine your response to a patient that was wrongly operated on:
I'm sorry my friend but, Dr. Bush has opened your chest to remove a cancer that you did not have. We told him to get a second opinion. Although there are no other doctors around, we've decided to leave you here open on the table to fend for yourself; despite the objections of those that recommended doctor Bush in the first place. They have no credibility on the subject, due to there past assurances that there was cancer. It's your bad fortune to have been operated on by Dr. Bush. Just because he is a doctor in our practice; we do not have an obligation to be involved in your circumstance. Besides, your treatment is costing us a fortune. And to be honest, we're not really interested in your plight.
Good Luck, if you die, you can blame Dr. Bush and his insincere supporters.
May 20th, 2008 at 7:59 pmBackup you said:Self determination and the promotion of human rights is a worthwhile idea. More worthwhile than abandoning them to intolerant Islamic theocracy that hasn’t evolved since the Middle Ages. The world has change, what happens in the Middle East now has a great impact on the West. Do we ignore the area to theocracy that fosters ideas like martyrdom and jihad when the consequences have become so significant for the rest of us?
In Islam, government and religion are one. You cant seem to grasp that what you are advocating is essentially that the US should stay in Iraq until our military changes their culture. Progressives are saying that is foolish, and even if possible would cost trillions and last centuries. Iraq had elections, Bush thinks Maliki is great, and all this Islamic stuff is going on in Basra. So already, in this democracy of Iraq, bad things are happening. Bad things in your opinion, but in the Islamic world, women have no status, and what was done to them in Basra was Islamically OK. You wanted democracy, you got it. What must happen it that Islam much change. Read Sam Harris, "End of Faith" to get a perspective on how long that might take. It took Christianity 500 years to reach its current state and will take Islam as long if they even try to change.
May 21st, 2008 at 5:27 amHighPlains: thanks for the recommendation.
May 21st, 2008 at 10:23 amand High Plains, I get your point that it's naive to think we will change their culture.
If you agree that Islam is opposed to western culture. And also that the world is changing in that the cultures have more opportunities to clash; what do you think the answer is?
Do we ignore Islam? Do we subjugate things in our culture to accomodate theirs? Do we stand up to them, when we cannot negotiate accomodation? Do we enable their culture to perpetuate what we believe are human rights violations? Do we attempt to influence their culture so that it is more tolerant of us?
I'm not sure our current policies are effective, but I also believe that doing nothing about the conflicts, will only postpone when we will have to address them. And maybe postpone them to a time when nuclear proliferation makes the address significantly more difficult.
May 21st, 2008 at 10:31 am