McCain Reacts To McClellan: ‘Every Intelligence Agency In The World And Every Assessment’ Said Iraq Had WMD
McCain Reacts To McClellan: ‘Every Intelligence Agency In The World And Every Assessment’ Said Iraq Had WMD
In his new book, former White House press secretary Scott McClellan charges that the Bush administration manipulated information in a “propaganda” campaign before the Iraq war, making the faulty claim that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction (WMD).
Asked about the book today, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) defended the administration’s actions in the run-up to the war, suggesting there was no manipulation involved. McCain claimed “every intelligence agency in the world” thought Hussein had WMD:
I have not seen the book or the comments. But I know why I supported it [the war] because I believed Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction as did every intelligence agency in the world and every assessment.
Watch it:
McCain’s blanket statement is wildly off the mark. The Bush administration did set up its own intelligence shops to disseminate faulty intelligence about Iraq’s alleged WMD. But “every” agency in the “world” did not buy the spin — several U.S. agencies were highly skeptical:
State Department’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR): Concluded that the “activities we have detected do not add up to a compelling case that Iraq is currently pursuing what [the INR] would consider to be an integrated and comprehensive approach to acquire nuclear weapons.”
Department of Energy: Concluded aluminum tubes said to be used for nuclear centrifuges were “likely intended for small artillery rockets.”
International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA): On March 7, 2003, IAEA chief Mohamed El-Baradei reported there was “no evidence that Saddam Hussein had any nuclear weapons or was in the process of acquiring them.”
Hans Blix, chief U.N. weapon’s inspector: In Jan. 2003, Blix told the U.N. Security Council that his inspection teams had not found any “smoking guns” after visiting some 125 Iraqi sites.
When under pressure, McCain has a habit of making sweeping blanket statements. Criticized for his stance on the 21st Century GI Bill last week, McCain falsely claimed he “received the highest award from literally every veteran’s organization in America.” In December, McCain made the blatantly false assertion that the he is “the only one the special interests don’t give any money to.”
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Eh — McCain will be backpedaling this remark in
May 29th, 2008 at 5:21 pm3…
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But who’s the “serial exaggerator”?
Not Grampy!
If ever a thread screamed out for a Buckie Boy post…
May 29th, 2008 at 5:24 pmForeign policy experience my a$$.
May 29th, 2008 at 5:25 pm**sigh**
May 29th, 2008 at 5:27 pmIf he truly didn’t notice that the people charged with finding the nonexistent WMD were saying not to attack because they didn’t have any evidence to support the chimp’s claims then we can only conclude that the onset of McNutzi’s dementia was some time before March 2003. I cannot wait for the return of reality-based government to this country.
May 29th, 2008 at 5:27 pmAnd every person will get a magic pony if they vote for me….
May 29th, 2008 at 5:27 pmMcCain is truly an idiot.
May 29th, 2008 at 5:27 pm“they thought”, “I believed”
May 29th, 2008 at 5:32 pm“Believing” and “thinking” are hardly the definitive terms a qualified President of the world’s most powerful nation should be using to justify a preemptive strike.
McCain supporters should now see McCain is not qualified to lead America.
First of all John Boy, we are not your “friends”. On the off chance that he wins the election, and by that I mean it gets stolen for him, and I have to hear him say my friends every day, well, I’m just going to shoot myself.
May 29th, 2008 at 5:35 pmGrampy McSame says – My friends back in the day everyone had these darn weapons of mass destruction, why on Sunday you could hear those weapons everywhere, Sunday Mass was a mess with all the destruction, I know Sadam had destroyed Mass because Bush told me so, and you know he a truthy type of guy, sometimes at Mass destruction Sunday we would bring food, all kinds of food, I liked to bring pies, then the destruction at Mass would be real fun, there were these three guys, Larry, Moe and Currly, they would bring cream pies and they were very destructive, so I know all about Pies of Mass Destruction…I think I sat is some peach cobbler…mmmm…warm.
Cripes anyone with a brain could figure out it was all a lie, nap time grampy.
May 29th, 2008 at 5:35 pmAnd the French and Germans were looking at what . . . .? Every assessment?
May 29th, 2008 at 5:35 pmMcCain claimed “every intelligence agency in the world” thought Hussein had WMD:
I have not seen the book or the comments. But I know why I supported it [the war] because I believed Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction as did every intelligence agency in the world and every assessment.
Then why are we still there if its been positively identified that WMD’s were never there to begin with ?
You believe our troops enjoy Iraqi 130 degree weather and playing the IED hop , skip and jump ?
May 29th, 2008 at 5:36 pmWas it Hitler or Goebbels who said that the bigger the lie that is presented to the people, the more likely it is that the people will believe it? John McCain, proudly carrying on in the tradition of the American Nazi Party.
May 29th, 2008 at 5:36 pmHmmm…Grampy McSame seems to also have forgotten about the UK’s intelligence service’s skepticism, famously outlined in the Downing Street Memo?
May 29th, 2008 at 5:36 pmi’m sorry granpa.
May 29th, 2008 at 5:37 pm“McCain has a habit of making sweeping blanket statements.”
May 29th, 2008 at 5:41 pm.
Everyone on earth knows, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that everything coming out of McCain’s mouth or his campaign are nothing but lies.
.
Like that?
You see, it wasn’t propaganda… Here let me show you what propaganda sounds like: Every intelligence agency in the world thought they had wmd.
May 29th, 2008 at 5:46 pmThis campaign may just finish off McSames political career. That wuold be sweet. His wife would leave him in a minute. You can tell, she really wants to be first lady.
May 29th, 2008 at 5:47 pmStratRat Says:
You can tell, she really wants to be first lady.
The first ladies medicine cabinet is just full of Woopie Pills for her.
May 29th, 2008 at 5:52 pm-Bush said that Iraq had stockpiled large amounts of biological weapons. The best intelligence at the time–and it was wrong–concluded that Saddam had an active biological weapons R&D program, which is not the same thing as a massive stockpile.
-Bush said in December 2002 that it was possible that Iraq already had nuclear weapons. No intelligence indicated that was a possibility, and no intelligence analyst or expert in the matter believed this. The CIA had concluded that Iraq was years away from developing a nuclear weapon.
-Bush said that Saddam was “dealing” with al Qaeda. The intelligence possessed by the US government did not support that assertion.
-Bush said the International Atomic Energy Agency had released a new report stating that Iraq was rebuilding its nuclear weapons facilities. There was no such report.
Bush said there was “no doubt” about the WMD intelligence possessed by his administration. There was doubt about most of the significant WMD findings: the aluminum tubes (supposedly bought by Iraq to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons but actually purchased for rocket launchers), the mobile biological weapons labs (which did not exist), the uranium-shopping in Niger (which did not occur), Iraq’s development of unmanned aerial vehicles that could hit the United States with biological and chemical weapons (which also did not exist). Within the intelligence community, there were analysts and experts that questioned each one of these assertions used by the Bush administration. And the Defense Intelligence Agency noted in a classified report in he [sic] fall of 2002 that there was no specific evidence to back up the presumption that Iraq had stockpiles of chemical weapons. So there was plenty of doubt about the intelligence. It just wasn’t shared with the American public.
Where is the “every” in the above , McBullshitter ?
May 29th, 2008 at 5:53 pmSpeaking of first lady’s medicine cabinets and whoopie pills, as God is my witness, there is just something not right with Laura Bush. I swear she is on something 24/7. She just has this sort of vacant, out-of-touch look on her face all the time. Of course, she is perfectly justified, married to the nitwit and all.
May 29th, 2008 at 5:55 pmThis must be the spoiled teenager’s version of ‘everyone’. The ‘You were, are, and will always be WRONG about Iraq’ club sure is well populated.
You were all WRONG!
May 29th, 2008 at 5:57 pmYou were all WRONG!
You were all WRONG!
I remember weapons inspector Scott Ritter stating unequivocally ,that Saddam No LONGER had WMDs ,on the radio BEFORE the Invasion of Iraq.
I remember how surprised I was at his statement…thinking to myself..can this be true? Turns out he KNEW what he was talking about.
In any case, when WAR is the issue, a WISE President would have let Hans Blix complete his job….just to be sure.
May 29th, 2008 at 5:57 pmExcept for David Kay the Weapons inspector who Bush ordered out of the country. McSame is losing what little bit of a mind he once had each and every day. There were no WMD. The inspectors were there looking for them and Dubya ordered an end to the inspections. I haven’t lost my mind and I remember saying how freaking insane this all was.
May 29th, 2008 at 5:57 pmDon’t forget French and Russian Intelligence too
May 29th, 2008 at 5:58 pm…and wrestling is the only sport that isn’t fixed.
May 29th, 2008 at 5:59 pmGod. What a dipsh*t. He’s stupider than Boosh.
If that’s even possible. :o/
May 29th, 2008 at 5:59 pmMcSame is just another oily dipstick.
May 29th, 2008 at 6:00 pmI am sick and tired of this one-size-fit-all, black and white view of intelligence. So I am not surprised that you could say that all the major intelligence agencies believed that Saddam had WMD. However, that is not so black and white. What agencies really needed to be worried about were the types of weapons in the inventory, quantities, delivery system and continuing production programs.
No one would doubt that Saddam would have some WMD’s. God, the US has chemical WMD’s as well nuclear. Now I really doubt that we have large stock piles of chemical WMD’s. We do have some for research, testing and some for “other” uses. However, it would be wrong to say that we constituted a severe threat because of them.
We knew that Saddam’s weapons dated from Gulf I and would not be serviceable for the most part after such an extended period of time. Strict controls over imports isolated Saddam’s regime and made highly unlikely that he could have received chemical precursors or nuclear materials without our knowledge. So, most agencies would believe that he had some. I doubt that any agencies but the US went along with the concept that he had sufficient weapons to constitute a significant threat. I doubt that any of them believed that there was sufficient information to justify a full scale invasion of the country to deal with that threat.
We really know what kind of craven liars existed in the White House from their constant refrain that Saddam could not prove that he had no weapons. Face it, UN inspectors were on the ground, Saddam’s initial resistance to inspections had been overcome and the US had all of this detailed (ha,ha) intelligence on the locations of weapons, factories and labs. No, Bush invaded to disrupt the UN inspectors before the farce of WMD’s became apparent to the world.
May 29th, 2008 at 6:01 pmyes, kids, he’s worse than Bush, believe it or not, because anyone who cannot see war crimes Bush and his henchmen committed must be worse. an fate worse than death, McSame08!
May 29th, 2008 at 6:02 pmMcCain: back to back…ignorance and incompetence
May 29th, 2008 at 6:03 pmGuess we know that Johnny Boy will be using “ALL the information” if he gets in, just like his Butt-hole buddy, Dubya.
SCARY!
May 29th, 2008 at 6:05 pmBush is a liar who got us into an illegal war. McSame is a liar who will keep us in eternal war.
May 29th, 2008 at 6:06 pmGuess we know that Johnny Boy will be using “ALL the information” if he gets in, just like his Butt-hole buddy, Dubya.
All the information Jeff Gannon can put in to him – Ouch!
May 29th, 2008 at 6:07 pmMcCain Reacts To McClellan: ‘Every Intelligence Agency In The World And Every Assessment’ Said Iraq Had WMD
Then how come 22 Senators and 133 Congressmen and women didn’t buy that crap , McNitwit ?
May 29th, 2008 at 6:11 pmMcCain supported the war in Iraq because he was sure that Saddam had WMDS.
This is the guy who wants to be the next president..
He will come one day and tell us,should he win, that he believed Iran possesses WMDS and he would tell us also that the bombs are now falling on Iranians,and another bloody war will begin in the Middle East that will suck the budget dry and sends gasoline prices skyrocketing,not to forget the hundreds of thousands of lives that will be lost.
Later to find out that no WMDS were found,or existed…
When Obama talks about ‘judgment’..that’s what we need to see from the next elected president, not how many years McCain spent in Washington.
UN inspectors disputed McCain claims.
McCain proved one more time why is he called McSame.
May 29th, 2008 at 6:11 pmThe is a way for George Bush and other members of this administration to depart with honor….Seppuku.
May 29th, 2008 at 6:29 pmmisshusseinmolly Says:
Eh — McCain will be backpedaling this remark in
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And then backpedaling on that one in
May 29th, 2008 at 6:30 pm1…
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I’m beginning to think that McPander Bear is trying to throw the nomination. Wouldn’t it be satisfying to see him manage to defeat himself running unopposed?
May 29th, 2008 at 6:35 pmThink Bob Barr has put some fear in his old wrinkled ass?
May 29th, 2008 at 6:40 pmWe are supposed to believe John McWar when he says that he just “believed” Saddam Hussein had WMD — so he supported Bush on the US invasion of Iraq.
In Louisville Ky, on Oct. 27, 2002, we heard former Marine and former UN Inspector Scott Ritter state without qualification that Iraq had No WMD and that any biological or chemical weapons were out-dated. The UN Inspectors in Iraq from 11/18/02 – 3/19/03 said there was No WMD.
How the hell did we know more in Louisville Ky than Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, and John McCain?
So now we are supposed to be satisfied with, “Oops, guess we got it wrong.” and “I’m bored with the charges that Bush lied to start the Iraq War.” and “McClellan is a traitor.”
Pathetic.
May 29th, 2008 at 6:55 pmdumbstruck Says:
Think Bob Barr has put some fear in his old wrinkled ass?
At this rate Huckabee could make a miraculous comeback. Seriously though, the shear volume of B.S. from McCain is bound to seep into all but the thickest of skulls. Even when he has Lieberman’s arm up his rump he keeps saying, and doing, such idiotic things. He just seems to be a less viable candidate every day, even if the GOP intended him to be a sacrificial lamb all along. They have to be thinking that they need someone who can complete a sentence without reversing his position to even make a showing in the general election.
May 29th, 2008 at 6:56 pmYou know they’re running scared when the denials start coming out this fast and furious.
They’re all complicit, up to their freakin eyebrows.
May 29th, 2008 at 7:03 pmBTW, the truly frightening thing about the Reichwingers is their failure to comprehend that it doesn’t make the slightest difference whether they intentionally lied, or not. As others have said, invading a country “by mistake” is just as bad as invading for greed and glory, as it increasingly appears is the case.
That’s the point that has to be hammered home to every candidate who has been supportive of the invasion. To be honest, the main reason I never favored Hillary is her totally lame excuses for voting with the herd. I would have respected her candidacy a lot more if she had simply fessed up and said, truthfully, that she and most others figured a no vote was political suicide. Such an attitude doesn’t forgive the lack of investigation but it’s better than dodging the question all together.
May 29th, 2008 at 7:04 pmJohn McCain is an ignorant jackass
First, any half-witted chemist can make a chemical or biological WMD in their bathtub.
Second, whatever WMDs Iraq had were given to them by the United States and encouraged by us to us them during the Iraq-Iran War. Later, Sadamn would turn these weapons on his own people without much of a peep of protest from the United States
Third, our claim that Iraq was developing a nuclear weapon was iotally bogus, as has already been proven.
As usual, John McCain is letting his mouth move before consulting his brain.
May 29th, 2008 at 7:11 pmThe Lie that keeps giving, by McCain and all the the cool aid drinking Bushies.
Once again I get to produce the ’smoking gun’ that will put all these lying murderers in jail. Shall we see what Drumheller, the CIA’s top man in Europe, the head of covert operations, the man who was paid to know while working for the best intelligence agency in the world (ours, USA), has to say about Iraqi WMD?
“(CBS) When no weapons of mass destruction surfaced in Iraq, President Bush insisted that all those WMD claims before the war were the result of faulty intelligence. But a former top CIA official, Tyler Drumheller — a 26-year veteran of the agency — has decided to do something CIA officials at his level almost never do: Speak out.
He tells correspondent Ed Bradley the real failure was not in the intelligence community but in the White House. He says he saw how the Bush administration, time and again, welcomed intelligence that fit the president’s determination to go to war and turned a blind eye to intelligence that did not.
“It just sticks in my craw every time I hear them say it’s an intelligence failure. It’s an intelligence failure. This was a policy failure,” Drumheller tells Bradley.
Drumheller was the CIA’s top man in Europe, the head of covert operations there, until he retired a year ago. He says he saw firsthand how the White House promoted intelligence it liked and ignored intelligence it didn’t:
“The idea of going after Iraq was U.S. policy. It was going to happen one way or the other,” says Drumheller.
Drumheller says he doesn’t think it mattered very much to the administration what the intelligence community had to say. “I think it mattered it if verified. This basic belief that had taken hold in the U.S. government that now is the time, we had the means, all we needed was the will,” he says. ”
May 29th, 2008 at 7:58 pmhttp://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/21/60minutes/main1527749.shtml
McCain is proving to be another tool of the RNC. The guy’s backbone is his wife’s bank account and without his wife, he’s the political Mr. Magoo who always votes for his new friend, Georgie. How can anyone support a Senator who doesn’t bother to show up for key votes in the Senate?! Yeah, McCain talks about tons of stuff and like the GI Bill, he won’t vote on it. That should tell anyone what he’s about.
May 29th, 2008 at 8:02 pmMcCain Reacts To McClellan: ‘Every Intelligence Agency In The World And Every Assessment’ Said Iraq Had WMD
Not true. McCain’s simply wrong. But, to be honest, I’d rather be the “idiot”, amateur, and neophyte that I am, and have said that Powell’s presentation was a crock and that Chalabi was a liar, and be right, than to be an “intelligence agent” and be wrong.
Cheers,
May 29th, 2008 at 8:40 pm.
Propagating a lie = LIAR.
McStupid believed THEM(sic) when THEY(sic) lied to us and so McGullible continues to tell the lie because THEY(sic) made it believable. Forget that McRepeater is doing just that, repeating the lie often enough so as to make others believe him, too.
The McLIAR has McSpoke!
R E M E M B E R:
THEY(sic) HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOMS…
… and so THEY(sic) debate the merits to undermining and legislating away those FREEDOMS!
.
May 29th, 2008 at 8:55 pmDr. Hussein Matt Says:
——————————————————————————–
I believed Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction as did every intelligence agency in the world and every assessment.
Yet, only one country and one president insisted that we go to war.
————-
you nailed it dr matt – best comment so far
May 29th, 2008 at 9:24 pmNo commentator ever seems to mention Chirac’s “60 Minutes” appearance a few days before Bush began the war in Iraq, but it alone blows McCain’s statement out of the water. From CBSNews.com, :
(And on a related note, couldn’t anybody ever ask McCain (and note to Chris Matthews: Pat Buchanan!) whether he has ever heard of, let alone read, the Downing Street Memos??)
May 29th, 2008 at 10:06 pmSorry for the formatting of the previous comment. Obviously, I haven’t mastered even the EZ-HTML buttons provided.
May 29th, 2008 at 10:08 pmSatyam,
You forgot what the UNSCOM team called the ‘intelligence’ provided to them by the Bush administration while they were in Iraq looking for those WMD, back in 2003: ‘garbage’
In fact, the U.S. claim that Iraq is developing missiles that could hit its neighbors – or U.S. troops in the region, or even Israel – is just one of the claims coming from Washington that inspectors here are finding increasingly unbelievable. The inspectors have become so frustrated trying to chase down unspecific or ambiguous U.S. leads that they’ve begun to express that anger privately in no uncertain terms.
[...]
# Example: satellite photographs purporting to show new research buildings at Iraqi nuclear sites. When the U.N. went into the new buildings they found “nothing.”
[...]
The inspectors do acknowledge, however, that they would not be here at all if not for the threat of U.S. military action.
So frustrated have the inspectors become that one source has referred to the U.S. intelligence they’ve been getting as “garbage after garbage after garbage.” In fact, Phillips says the source used another cruder word.
Inspectors Call U.S. Tips ‘Garbage’
So the idea that ‘every assessment’ said Hussein had WMD is just plain wrong, or a flat-out lie.
May 29th, 2008 at 11:07 pmDoes anyone know the last potential presidential candidate who had such a high missed vote count in either the House or Senate? Raising money for your candidacy when you rail for accountability, fiscal responsibility and cutting back earmarks should tell any voter with common sense that McCain is married to another military term…”sidewinder”.
May 29th, 2008 at 11:25 pmThis is the moment to distroy the REPUKLICAN party once and for all. As a matter of fact…lets destroy all political parties…individuals with no party line.
May 29th, 2008 at 11:55 pm#31 JMOHR says: Now I really doubt that we have large stock piles of chemical WMD’s.
From St. Petersburg Times (March 16, 2003):
“Though the United States is required by international treaty to be rid of chemical weapons by 2007, nearly 75 percent of the nation’s now-banned arms still exist. It amounts to a nationwide stockpile of 23,415 TONS of liquid sarin nerve agent, blister-causing mustard agent, a deadly nerve liquid called VX and variants…. Anniston, Alabama has 77,000 M-55 rockets filled with sarin or VX.”
May 30th, 2008 at 1:34 am” Every intelligence agency in the world said Iraq had WMD” !?
Not so fast. Remember what FReedom Fries were before they became freedom fries? Thats correct. They were French Fries.
And they became freedom fries because FRance’s intelligence stated there were no WMD in Iraq and Saddam was NOT in cahoots with Al Qaida.
As I recall the U.N. didn’t find enough evidence in Bush’s assertions of so called proof.
Why do you think the “coalition of the FEW” (small countries providing little assests) was all to be amassed by the great uniter?
May 30th, 2008 at 2:20 amOh really? How do keep all these things straight John? As I recall you can’t tell a Sunni from a Shiite from AQ from Taliban w/o Lieberman blowing in you ear. Or is that your ass?
May 30th, 2008 at 6:00 pmEvery Intelligence Agency? Every ASSessment?
Because the following is what the Intelligence said up until the point Bush restricted the Intelligence Congress go to see after 9-11.
Acquisition of Technology Relating to Weapons of Mass Destruction and Advanced Conventional Munitions, 1 January Through 30 June 1999, Unclassified Report to Congress from the Director of Central Intelligence, [b]February 2000[/b]
http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/bian_feb_2000.htm
. . . We do not have any direct evidence that Iraq has used the period since Desert Fox to reconstitute its WMD programs . . .
Acquisition of Technology Relating to Weapons of Mass Destruction and Advanced Conventional Munitions, 1 July Through 31 December 1999, Unclassified Report to Congress from the Director of Central Intelligence, [b]August 2000[/b]
http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/bian_aug2000.htm
. . . We do not have any direct evidence that Iraq has used the period since Desert Fox to reconstitute its WMD programs . . .
Acquisition of Technology Relating to Weapons of Mass Destruction and Advanced Conventional Munitions, 1 January Through 30 June 2000, Unclassified Report to Congress from the Director of Central Intelligence, [b]February 2001[/b]
May 31st, 2008 at 4:09 amhttp://www.fas.org/irp/threat/bian_feb_2001.htm
. . . We do not have any direct evidence that Iraq has used the period since Desert Fox to reconstitute its WMD programs . . .
McCain was calling for war on Iraq before the WMD allegations. On Dec. 5, 2001, members of Congress John McCain, Richard Shelby, Jesse Helms, Henry Hyde, Harold Ford Jr., Joseph Lieberman, Trent Lott, Benjamin Gilman, and Sam Brownback sent President Bush a letter urging military action against Iraq.
That’s long before BushCo. started in on the Iraq WMD hoax: the WMD lies were merely the pretext for selling the war to the country. Warmonger McCain is merely being consistent in his support of war for Iraq’s oil.
That the administration lied about WMDs in Iraq has been known for years. McClellan’s revelations aren’t new, save as an admission of his complicity in war crimes.
May 31st, 2008 at 8:19 pmCan it be any more apparent in McCain’s and the Republicans choice of words.
Point; Third paragragh down in the article.
McCain, ” because I believed Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction as did every intelligence agency in the world and every assessment.”
—I BELIEVE—-!
Then 2nd paragragh,
“every intelligence agency in the world” thought Hussein had WMD. ”
—Thought—!
These are strong powerful determined words even for a man asking to be President.
What about France? Russia? Turkey? Israel?
Oh, I’m sure there are a few more. Notice I used the word “sure”.
So McCain and the republicans excuse to not being held accountable for failing ? ” Everyone else thought “.
Thats right, there were others that were fed intel from the White House. Remember, the U.N. didn’t buy into Bush’s claims.
So what of those Gov Palin responsibilities? The ones that come with responsibilities?
If Gov Palin was asked about the intell of WMD. Would she now repeat the republican standard that the others were wrong too? That because they were wrong it is without accountability republicans were wrong ? Really…!
September 10th, 2008 at 3:04 am