FBI General Counsel: Waterboarding Is ‘Clearly Not Permissible In The United States’
FBI General Counsel: Waterboarding Is ‘Clearly Not Permissible In The United States’
During a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing today, Sen. Dick Durbin (D-IL) asked FBI General Counsel Valerie Caproni if “painful stress positions, threatening detainees with dogs, forced nudity, mock execution and waterboarding” were “abusive” and “illegal.” In asking his question, Durbin cited judge advocate generals who told him that the “techniques are illegal and violate Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions.”
Caproni first tried to deflect the question to the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, saying that “the issue of legality or non-legality is not mine to reach.” But pushed further by Durbin, she stated unequivocally that “they are all abusive”:
DURBIN: I asked you that question. Are they abusive, illegal or violate Geneva Conventions?
CAPRONI: Oh, I’m sorry. I was running them all together, Senator. I would say they are all abusive.
Durbin then asked her if she considered the techniques torture. Again, Caproni tried to dodge the question, saying “it’s not within my pay grade” to make that determination. Eventually, following more pressure from Durbin, Caproni relented, admitting that “these techniques are clearly not permissible in the United States”:
DURBIN: Do you consider them torture?
CAPRONI: Again, torture has a legal definition, and that’s what OLC has passed on. And it’s not — it’s not within my pay grade to overrule OLC.
DURBIN: And how could it be within the pay grade of those below you to understand whether what they’re doing is torture or not?
CAPRONI: Again, from — the FBI agents’ responsibilities was, one, not to participate. These techniques are clearly not permissible in the United States. We train our agents well. They would have known that none of those techniques were they permitted to participate in.
While a report released last month by the Justice Department’s inspector general praised the FBI for “its conduct and professionalism” during interrogations, the bureau has been criticized as having “done nothing to end the abuse” perpetrated by other agencies.
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I disagree. It should be reserved for Bush, Cheney, and their ilk.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:05 pmWaterboarding Is ‘Clearly Not Permissible In The United States’”
Time to parse. Now we have to define in.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:09 pmBUSH ADMIN: WE CAN’T HEAR YOU!
June 10th, 2008 at 4:09 pmI just received an e-mail from Cong. Robert Wexler saying:
I will now expand my efforts to secure impeachment hearings in the Judiciary Committee for these new Articles of Impeachment against President George W. Bush.
I am thrilled to inform you that McClellan has agreed to testify on June 20th at 10AM. This will be the first step in what we hope will be ongoing and deepening examinations of the stark evidence and charges against both President Bush and Vice President Cheney.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:09 pmFBI General Counsel: Waterboarding Is ‘Clearly Not Permissible In The United States
Well that legal opinion directly supports Impeachment Article XVIII — Torture: Secretly Authorizing, and Encouraging the Use of Torture Against Captives in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Other Places, as a Matter of Official Policy.
Call your rep and demand they co-sponsor Impeachment.
First co-sponsor is Robert Wexler (D-FL)
June 10th, 2008 at 4:12 pmSo doing the right thing has to do with Pay Grades? Patriotism is expected only by those of a certain Pay Grade? What type of fu(king country do we live in? I can’t say anything about massive criminality because of my Pay Grade? That is rich. Here come the trolls to discuss ‘Pay Grades’.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:13 pmMcWars Says:
BUSH ADMIN: WE CAN’T HEAR YOU!
More like
June 10th, 2008 at 4:22 pmBush Admin: This call will be recorded to insure the highest quality of your patriotism. We don’t give a f_ck if you mind.
I have never before been so ashamed of my country…
June 10th, 2008 at 4:23 pmThe reply from Bush, et.al.?
So?
June 10th, 2008 at 4:25 pmThe only people on the planet still arguing about torture are those who tortured and the Bushites who approved/ordered it. I think it’s safe to say that we could simply jail everyone who has come up with a variation of “it depends on how one defines torture” and events would prove we got the guilty ones.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:28 pmTorture is unconstitional and should always be illegal.
I would argue that the constitutional protection from “cruel and unusual” punishment could reasonably be interpreted as a ban of both cruel punishment and also unusual punishment, not merely punishment which is both cruel and unusual.
If in fact you’re in the one in a million whose torturing act does save us from the next 9-11, jury nullification will save you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification
June 10th, 2008 at 4:28 pmBingo! That’s why they have to rendition them to Syria, Egypt or Afghanistan to torture them so they can get some unreliable intel.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:28 pmWhy does Valerie Caproni hate the Consitution and the courts?
June 10th, 2008 at 4:30 pmAnd thus they say rendition is the answer…
June 10th, 2008 at 4:30 pmI dunno, given that it took two atomic bombs and countless air strikes on civilian city populations to win WW2, I think waterboarding 3 super terrorists for a few seconds is not such a tragedy for the US in comparison. I’m very proud of my country’s ability to survive and protect its people in the face of constant conflicts and attacks on our way of life. No one said we must be the shining example of perfection and clearly we are not. My main concern is not how good we feel about how we treat our prisoners, but rather how well protect our most innocent. That said, I don’t support torture and think it is vile. I’ve been to a torture museum and it was aweful, horrible… although nowhere was a reference to waterboarding. To me, the outrage over waterboarding is disproportionate to the times it was reportedly used.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:32 pmethics, kids! ethics 101, I think she missed that class, pay grade. oh, gee, I’m not in any position to have decency and ethics or follow any moral conduct what so ever. it’s not in my job descrption!
June 10th, 2008 at 4:37 pmI think waterboarding 3 super terrorists for a few seconds is not such a tragedy for the US in comparison.
STFU! Nobody convicted these people of anything. They are innocent until proven guilty - except in your king’s world. You are a lousy human being. I pity the fool.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:37 pmgunclinger, the problem is that torture produces information that is NOT AS ACCURATE as that from the longstanding FBI rapport-based interrogation techniques.
If there was any useful information that we learned from those waterboardings, you know the torture advocates would be shouting it from the mountaintops. Fact is, there wasn’t. Read up on what we learned from waterboarding and you’ll see.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:38 pmgunclinger Says:
I dunno, given that it took two atomic bombs and countless air strikes on civilian city populations to win WW2, I think waterboarding 3 super terrorists for a few seconds is not such a tragedy for the US in comparison. I’m very proud of my country’s ability to survive and protect its people in the face of constant conflicts and attacks on our way of life. No one said we must be the shining example of perfection and clearly we are not. My main concern is not how good we feel about how we treat our prisoners, but rather how well protect our most innocent. That said, I don’t support torture and think it is vile. I’ve been to a torture museum and it was aweful, horrible… although nowhere was a reference to waterboarding. To me, the outrage over waterboarding is disproportionate to the times it was reportedly used.
gee, well, that’s it then… I guess all I can say is may you never experience waterboarding and eat your own words.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:39 pm“These techniques are clearly not permissible in the United States”
June 10th, 2008 at 4:39 pmWhat about Cuba?
gunclinger Says:
Funny that you mention WWII in your defense of waterboarding, because we prosecuted Japanese officers for waterboarding our solders as a WAR CRIME.
Dumbass
June 10th, 2008 at 4:40 pmWhen will the USA start to get serious about restoing its credibility and its international image, and prosecute its own WAR CRIMINALS? The US has being torturing people for decades now. In Latin America, the US as well as the French governments were involved in passing TORTURE TECHNIQUES to the military dictaors they placed in power. The School of the Americas in the USA was a school of anti-democracy and pro torture! Now, with this criminal and imoral administration, where top officials have secret meeting in the WH and create a TORTURE PROGRAM… when are they going to be held accountable? If History repeats itself, I’m hoping for a revolution French style in the US, and the heads of their WAR CRIMINALS, from Bush & Chenney to Rice, Perle and Wolfowitz, to roll!!!!
June 10th, 2008 at 4:41 pmbecause let me tell you! I can assure you, don’t you worry. It will make you eat every last word up there in that there paragraph you wrote, ther, buddy!
June 10th, 2008 at 4:41 pmSo I guess most here agree that terrorists will spill their beans if only we would ask them nicely.
You try to make it harder for police/military to fight terrorism. at the same time, you ban the military from recruiting in colleges/universities. That’s why liberals cannot be trusted with this country’s security. You love your terrorists but hate your own country.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:42 pmso go ahead, and try to make in as teeny weeny an offense as you may, just pray it never happens to you because life has a funny way of humbling the un-humbled
June 10th, 2008 at 4:43 pmArt Says:
“These techniques are clearly not permissible in the United States”
What about Cuba?
Our base in Cuba is legally exactly like a US embassy in a foreign country: It is US soil. No different. Now Bushco will argue that it is different (because they own the DOJ & DOD), but they are arguing from a failed position. If we torture in Cuba - on the US base there - it is just like taking the innocent person to Washington DC and torturing him or her on the Capital steps. Torture is torture no matter what piece of dirt you happen to be standing on.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:44 pmRightOfAttila Says:
So I guess most here agree that terrorists will spill their beans if only we would ask them nicely.
You try to make it harder for police/military to fight terrorism. at the same time, you ban the military from recruiting in colleges/universities. That’s why liberals cannot be trusted with this country’s security. You love your terrorists but hate your own country.
how many times must the Geneva Convention be mentioned until you pukes get it through your thick skulls that, whether you like it or not, IT’S THE LAAAAAAAAW!!!
June 10th, 2008 at 4:45 pmNot only does torture give you bad intell (historians have been saying this for sixty-five years), but anything obtained by torture cannot be used in court. Don’t believe that only three were tortured. It was happening at 14 prisons in Iraq, plus Afghanistan, Gitmo, Diego Garcia, Egypt, Poland, etc.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:45 pmdamn you are dense!
June 10th, 2008 at 4:46 pmgunclinger-
it only took a few minutes for some terrorists to pilot planes into 3 buildings and a field on 9/11… does the length and infrequency of this outrage make it any less of a tragedy for the US?
If waterboarding is NOT illegal how come we prosecuted Japanese military interrogators as war criminals for employing it in WWII?
If waterboarding protects the innocent how come professional interrogators tell us it’s worse than useless, it’s counter-productive?
When did a ‘little’ torture become acceptable? When is evil okay for the U.S.A.?
To me, your indifference to waterboarding is disproportionate to the unacceptable and useless horror of the act…
June 10th, 2008 at 4:46 pmstop arguing on whether or not it is or it isn’t, the rules have been broken, you stupid idiot!
June 10th, 2008 at 4:47 pmRightOfAttila Says:
So I guess most here agree that terrorists will spill their beans if only we would ask them nicely.
It’s funny, because the most successful interrogators know that torture is useless as a tool for gaining the truth from prisoners.
Here’s a hint: 24 is fiction.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:48 pmStratRat,
Please try and calm down, you’re consistently much too angry and rude.
jps:
June 10th, 2008 at 4:48 pmYes I agree. I’ve also read that torture doesn’t produce good intel. I actually don’t support waterboarding or any other torture methods. Its horrible and I don’t want our agencies to engage in it. I did read material from ABC News that quote sources explaining that harsh techniques (which are not deemed torture) do produce good intel when nothing else works. So who knows. Probably depends on who you’re asking. Although I do question my own opposition to torture if there was a ticking nuke hidden somewhere and the suspect wasn’t talking.. I dunno..tough one..not sure innocents should die so that we can feel good about a moral stance on torture. This is a complex subject I think.
RightOfAttila Says:
So I guess most here agree that terrorists will spill their beans if only we would ask them nicely.
There is a country for scared people like you. It’s called North Korea. They have no laws there and they just do what ‘dear leader’ tells them to do. They don’t think - cause they cannot think, they don’t wonder - cause they don’t think, they don’t plan - cause they don’t think. That is where you belong. You are scared; we get it. You crap your pants when o’reilly tells you to; we get it. You want to live under a monarchy; we get that too. Please try and improve so one day, you will be patriotic enough to call yourself an American. As it is, you are a scared Amerikkkan. Your parents, I’m sure, must be very proud of their scared little fool.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:50 pmArt Says:
“These techniques are clearly not permissible in the United States”
What about Cuba?
US code, jurisdiction section answers that
Jurisdiction.— There is jurisdiction over the activity prohibited in subsection (a) if—
(1) the alleged offender is a national of the United States; or
(2) the alleged offender is present in the United States, irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged offender.
Notice it does not state the offense has to happen in the US, only if the offender is a US national ot the offender is on US soil.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:50 pmRightofAtttila - it’s people like YOU who make me ashamed of this country. You don’t understand that by using terrorist tactics, WE BECOME TERRORISTS OURSELVES.
I would rather die than become a terrorist, or use their tactics.
Only sniveling cowards like you would sell your immortal soul to the devil for some limp promise of “safety.”
Screw you, you whinging coward - we’re taking our country back, and your kind will be forced to scuttle back under the rocks from whence you came.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:51 pmlisten, you trolls are infesting this site with your twisting of the law. but however much you want to twist it, it is apparent that we understand the US Constitution and the Geneva convention so you are trolling for nothing!
June 10th, 2008 at 4:51 pmThere is only one justification for torture. Sadism. The only purpose it ever serves is to fulfill the sick desires of the torturer. As for getting information? George Patton had an interesting take on questioning German soldiers:
“You don’t need to rough ‘em up. Hell! If you give ‘em a hot meal they’ll give you Hitler’s address. Give ‘em a beer and they’ll introduce you to their sister“.
And, for out pet troll, the best reason to be a moral nation is to, hopefully, inspire moral behavior from others. It doesn’t always work but, If I should find myself in the custody of a foreign power, I sure would like to know my country had a reputation for humane treatment of prisoners. In fact, thousands of American POWs and hostages have, historically, been spared the worst treatment meted to others because WE USED TO HAVE A REPUTATION FOR HUMANE TREATMENT. It’s a great crime that Bushco has pissed that away and I fear that Americans, yet unborn, will pay the price.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:51 pmClarification
June 10th, 2008 at 4:53 pmjurisdiction section of UScode title 18 2340A Torture
gunclinger Says:
StratRat,
Please try and calm down, you’re consistently much too angry and rude.
jps:
Yes I agree. I’ve also read that torture doesn’t produce good intel. I actually don’t support waterboarding or any other torture methods. Its horrible and I don’t want our agencies to engage in it. I did read material from ABC News that quote sources explaining that harsh techniques (which are not deemed torture) do produce good intel when nothing else works. So who knows. Probably depends on who you’re asking. Although I do question my own opposition to torture if there was a ticking nuke hidden somewhere and the suspect wasn’t talking.. I dunno..tough one..not sure innocents should die so that we can feel good about a moral stance on torture. This is a complex subject I think.
O-M-G! Is it me or are you actually trying to create a clause in the law?
June 10th, 2008 at 4:53 pmWolfowitz has his eye an that woman!
June 10th, 2008 at 4:54 pmyou will stop at nothing, right?
June 10th, 2008 at 4:54 pmgunclinger Says:
StratRat,
Please try and calm down, you’re consistently much too angry and rude.
If by being rude, you go away and never return, then I’ll accept those consequences. In the last few days, you have defended man made global warming, corrupt GOP, and now torturing innocent human beings. You are not a person who deserves civilty as you represent the kind of person the founding fathers wrote the Constitution and Bill of Rights for. They knew you and those like you are too easily swayed by the pundits of the day. They understood you would not think for yourself, so they created a system of government designed to minimize the threat of you or those like you from gaining power. It was a clever way of predicting the future. They knew there would be pussies like you who cannot determine right from wrong.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:57 pmWaterboard Rice! She has information we need!!!
June 10th, 2008 at 4:58 pmCondiMustGo.com !!!
BTW Crap for Brains. The Geneva Conventions, and other international accords, are not intended to protect “the rights of criminals”. They are intended to protect innocent citizens of all countries. The reason to follow them is so that your daughter doesn’t end up hooked up to a generator.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:59 pmbutt, butt, butt, waterboarding was NOT done in the United States. We waterboarded in Cuba.
sarc
June 10th, 2008 at 5:02 pmOnpenly torturing people, the USA has exposed its own soldiers to the same treatment. TORTURE is a crime! No matter who practice it! The USA has commited WAR CRIMES and CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY by invading IRAQ and AFEGAHNISTAN in order to steal their resources. All the military bases in those countries follow the oil pipeline, not terrorists. The real terrorists are occupying the White House and the Pentagon today!
June 10th, 2008 at 5:02 pmStratRat,
Take it easy. Way too much negativity and personal attacks. I’ve not once defended torture, you are incorrect sir. I don’t think you really read my post, but rather just react to what you think I’ve said. And I am not a republican GOPer at all, I just don’t think the repubs are solely responsible for every social ill, that’s just silly. I do deserve civility and I expect you to raise your level of discourse.
Keep in mind that ~half the country is center-right, so it would be better to learn to be civil with people who have alternative opinions. You’re obviously never going to be 100% correct on every issue. Diversity is key. Political temperatures in the country wax and wane. There is no reason to be rude to folks who don’t agree with you all the time. There are a lot of opinions out there and each one is just as good as yours.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:05 pmLast time I checked, North Korea is a communist country - perfect for leftists like StratRat! Isn’t Kim Jong Il the poster boy for the left. Isn’t that why your super-hero Jimmy Carter bargained for the US to send them money, oil, food, medicines, etc. You commies are not scary, you’re laughable at best.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:09 pmgunclinger Says:
StratRat,
Take it easy. Way too much negativity and personal attacks. I’ve not once defended torture, you are incorrect sir.
Your whole post at 15 was a defense of waterboarding which has been prosecuted by the US already, setting a legal president, as torture.
You are a prevaricator,I see.
There are a lot of opinions out there and each one is just as good as yours.
We prosecuted our own soldiers for waterboarding prisoners when we invaded the Philippines and we prosecutes enemy soldiers after WWII for the same thing. It is law, some hack’s opinion be damned.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:14 pm“Diversity” is not the key if that includes criminal behavior. This isn’t a left-right issue. It’s a legal-illegal issue. And the anger has nothing to do with differing political views. The anger is because a bunch of jackbooted thugs have seized American government and perpetrated great crimes in our name. There ain’t no way in Hell I’m gonna carry guilt for Bushco’s crimes to the grave. So, I will do everything in my power to insure those crimes are redressed. And one of the ways I’ll do that is by calling out idiots who think it’s O.K. to sometimes violate international law.
Here’s the deal: It’s wrong for anybody to ever break international law and violations should be dealt with most harshly. No exceptions regardless of philosophical arguments.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:14 pmgunclinger-
We do not need a civil discussion of torture… torture is wrong… torture is evil… torture produces bad intel.
We need torture to STOP.
Torture makes us weaker… torture recruits for our enemies… torture prevents us from opposing torture elsewhere in the world, even the torture of our own troops…
If you can’t see that, If you still think that the ‘outrage is disproportiante’ then you shouldn’t be talked to…
There’s nothing to talk about- it’s not a grey area- the U.S.A. I love does not torture.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:14 pmPolitical temperatures in the country wax and wane. There is no reason to be rude to folks who don’t agree with you all the time. There are a lot of opinions out there and each one is just as good as yours.
Your stances are in stark contrast to what this country is all about. You have defended torture; you did so with your comments today at #15. Sadly, Bush has made you forget you are an American (well, you are an Amerikkkan) first, and a political tool second. Knowing this, it would be impossible for me to have any more disrespect for you and your kind of citizen. You are undeserving of any civility and you will slowly begin to understand that.
I am not normally rude to anyone, but I am very adamant about the direction of this country and the condition we leave it for the next generation. You don’t seem to harbor these same concerns, so that makes us at odds on some very fundamental issues. So far apart, I’m afraid that we will never see eye to eye. That is fine. What is surprising is that you show up at TP and expect your opinions to be valued. That sir, has been your mistake.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:16 pmgunclinger,
The comments directed to you are way too civil. Your ilk are the defenders of the indefensible. Bush has brought torture, an illegal and imoral war, lied to his countrymen, covered up the murder of a patriotic soldier….the list goes on and on, and you sycophant whores are the enablers of these disgusting and evil bastards. You whine about civility while Bush pisses on the honor of my country.
Shove a big piece of cholla cactus up your ass and STFU.
Is the proper civility showing? I can do better.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:18 pmnanlichi Says:
gunclinger,
Shove a big piece of cholla cactus up your ass and STFU.
Is the proper civility showing? I can do better.
You forgot “sideways”
=D
June 10th, 2008 at 5:20 pmYa just can’t argue with someone who thinks North Korea, a totalitarian dictatorship with hereditary succession, is a “communist country”. One would have to be ignorant of communism, N. Korea, or both to think any such thing. Here’s a tip for you Skippy. Before you introduce an element into an argument? Understand what it is.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:21 pmpoopclinger - a shining example of the neanderthal christofascist mindset.
You are sick in the head, you UNAMERICAN POS.
I hope you get kidnapped by some foreign country and tortured, you deserve it.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:23 pmYou commies are not scary, you’re laughable at best.
And that, my progressive friends, is truly the best this troll can come up with. What a sad, sad thing.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:25 pmStrat, Wayne, Pete,
I enjoy some of your opinions, although they are simply your opinions and they carry no more weight than mine.
A lot of knee-jerkers here with questionable reading comprehension skills…
I actually clearly stated that I am AGAINST waterboarding and AGAINST torture in post 33. In post 15 I simply said that all this “outrage” is disproportionate to the three times we know that waterboarding was used on terrorists when you consider that the US has dropped atom bombs and leveled civilian cities in defense of itself..
Try to keep up.
I also wrote that I question my own commitment to being against torture if there ever was a ticking nuclear bomb hidden somewhere in the US and we had the suspect in custody. I personally don’t believe that hundreds of thousands of innocent Americans should die horrible deaths so that some people can feel good about their moral stance on torture. Again, these situations may stretch my commitment to being against torture. That doesn’t make me a bad person, it makes me human.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:27 pmnanlichi,
June 10th, 2008 at 5:30 pmWhy did you make such a sweeping generalization about me?! I never once mentioned bush,let alone any support I might have for him or his administration. I’m not a republican and I don’t have any ilk. I begin to think that TP community is too uncivil and slightly irrational. I’m just a guy with an opinion that’s different than yours. What is wrong with some of you?
gunclinger Says:
Strat, Wayne, Pete,
I enjoy some of your opinions, although they are simply your opinions and they carry no more weight than mine.
Try telling a judge that beating your wife is legal in your opinion ( or have your lawyer try that ) and see how far that gets you.
The law is the law.
Some people….
June 10th, 2008 at 5:32 pmWhat’s sad, StratRat, is that they go through their lives afraid of stuff they don’t even understand. Of course, they refuse to pursue new knowledge of anything so they don’t understand anything. They just cower in the dark waiting for Rush or Sean to tell them what to be afraid of. Then they log on to brag about how they see through the latest “librul plot” and, as often as not, never understand a bit of what they are raving about.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:33 pmgunclinger,
Most of the posters here are liberals. They don’t want to admit it so they call themselves “progressives”. You’re just starting to discover how tolerant and compassionate liberals are.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:33 pmGunclinger: Yes, it does make you a bad person. It makes you a coward. It makes you a weak, sadistic fool.
Period. End of argument.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:33 pmYou keep saying that 3 were tortured. The Pentagon said that 95 died while in custody in prisons in Iraq alone. Probably 90% were innocent.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:35 pmYeah, Attila baby - we aren’t tolerant of whining cowards like you who advocate torturing other human beings.
Eat sh*t and die, p*ssy.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:35 pmWhy do people think life resembles a video game or tv show where there’s a nuke about to go off somewhere in the city….
There’s time to torture the information out but no time to look for the bomb? How is it there is no doubt the subject knows the location but no info about the threat itself is known?
Subject just came in and said, ‘There’s a bomb set to go off at 2:43 in LA, but I’m not telling where in LA and I don’t care if you torture me, I’ll never tell, never, I tell you.’ A yellow light shines his face as he laughs, ‘Bahahaha!’
People are willing to sacrifice morals based on a scenerio not likely to occur? Ticking time bomb scenerio: possible but not bloody likely. They talk like forth and goal with time running out happens every half.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:37 pmgunclinger Says:
What is wrong with some of you?
Fact. Torture is against US and International law. Period.
Fact. Waterboarding is considered torture under international treaties to which we are signatories of, which by our Constitution makes it US law.
Fact. Torture is f-king evil.
You are defending torture, which makes you an advocate for criminal activity and evil.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:38 pmI also wrote that I question my own commitment to being against torture if there ever was a ticking nuclear bomb hidden somewhere in the US and we had the suspect in custody.
Ok, I guess its my turn. Let me help you with some reality. The TV show which your GOP uses to defend torture and spying is FICTION. It is not real. While I appreciate you explaining your points of view (I do), you lose most of your credibility when you use the false reason of an impending attack. That is what Keifer Sutherland deals with when the scripts call for it. It is not a realistic scenario. He is an actor, playing a role.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:39 pmLefside Annie,
You don’t even know anything about me and yet you are so loose with your insults.. wow. So many angry people here and what is strange is that we all agree that torture is horrible and illegal in the US. Weird.
What exactly makes me bad here Annie, that I simply raised a question whether I would question my own personal belief that torture is bad and against the law if I knew that millions might die if a single person wasn’t tortured? How can you be so sanctimonious and self-righteous? Should millions of other people have to die so that you can feel that you were 100% committed? That’s immoral to me. I’m simply saying that I don’t have that strong of a commitment and likely that’s just because I’m human with flaws. I’m not perfect, sheesh.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:41 pmAttila baby says:
Most of the posters here are liberals. They don’t want to admit it so they call themselves “progressives”. You’re just starting to discover how tolerant and compassionate liberals are.
Yeah, that’s why the site is called Think Progress - cause its a progressive site. If it was a right side site, the title would be “Think, actually no we don’t”.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:43 pmgunclinger Says:
I also wrote that I question my own commitment to being against torture if there ever was a ticking nuclear bomb hidden somewhere in the US and we had the suspect in custody. I personally don’t believe that hundreds of thousands of innocent Americans should die horrible deaths so that some people can feel good about their moral stance on torture. Again, these situations may stretch my commitment to being against torture. That doesn’t make me a bad person, it makes me human.
None of the people captured and sequestered in Gitmo and at prisons around the globe had the secret to a ticking nuclear bomb. It’s a ridiculous scenario offered by people justifying the use of torture.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:43 pmRightOfAttila
Cute. The reich-winger writes his post and jockstraper gives him a recommend (1) hehe.
Got news for you, RightOfAttila. We progressives don’t exist to explain anything to you, including the term ‘progressive’. We’re not intimidated that you create an account on our own turf to “call us out.”
Now get back to consoling Hitler for having the nth pinneaple shoved up his ass today.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:44 pmKeith, I said three known cases of terrorist *waterboarding* were reported. Just three. Those are the facts here. That’s why I thought all the waterboarding outrage is disproportionate given that our country has done far more devastating things to people in the past.
Hmm I’m finding that this is not really a *discussion* board…is it. I hope that some of the knee jerking can stop so that we can have a meaningful conversation and exchange ideas.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:46 pmgunclinger Says:
I’m not perfect, sheesh.
Finally, he is starting to make sense.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:46 pmOpinions?
Fact: Waterboarding violates international law.
Fact: Numerous other practices admittedly used by U.S. jailers/interrogators violate international law.
Fact: The Geneva Conventions and similar treaties, though difficult to enforce, specifically apply to citizens of all nations regardless of whether, or not, said nations are signatory.
Fact: POWs and other prisoners are often treated according to their own country’s reputation on human rights.
Fact: American POWs held by the Germans during WW2 have provided many hundreds of anecdotes of receiving preferential treatment compared to counterparts from other countries, specifically because of the U.S’s reputation for exemplary treatment.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:46 pmRightOfAttila Says:
gunclinger,
Most of the posters here are liberals. They don’t want to admit it so they call themselves “progressives”. You’re just starting to discover how tolerant and compassionate liberals are.
I served 9 years fighting for this country until I was disabled in Desert Storm. I probably shot more real terrorist than you will ever personally see in your pathetic, scared, chickehawk life.
I am no turn your cheek liberal, and have never claimed to be. I still consider my oath to defend the Constitution from all enemies foreign or domestic to be in force.
You, however, are too cowardly to serve in a war you support.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:49 pmThis is for the newcomers here at TP. The issues we are debating are extremely serious (torture, and the like). Because the issues are so very serious, the words we will exchange can get harsh. If the subject was something trivial or unimportant, you would find a much more comfortable place to discuss various topics. The passion we all put into our words and ideas are designed to sway the viewpoints of other posters and commenters. We win some, we lose some.
Having to discuss the illegality of torture - when it is clearly illegal and ineffective - is very frustrating to those of us who think the USA stands for something bigger and better. Please understand this important point.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:53 pmWayne,
Sideways would work too. Although I think depth of penetration would be the goal.
The defense of torture reveals real weaknesses in these cowards. They are the first to put their hand over their heart and get a big tear when the band plays the National Anthem, yet when it comes to something substantial, something meaningful, like standing up for your country’s honor and saying that torture is NOT American, they cower behind Bush’s skirts and the piss runs down their legs.
I guess the pus*ies will always be with us, I just wish that they had stronger character.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:55 pmThe reason the famous “three cases” do deserve so much outrage is because no one has been punished. Bushco did it they should admit it, punish the guilty, apologize and move on. Instead they destroyed our international reputation by saying, “well we only did it cause we thought we had to”. That is un-effing-believably weak.
When the POTUS says “we don’t torture” it should be the strict 100% literal truth and should carry the implication that those who do indeed torture will be prosecuted.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:56 pmRotOfAttila is right.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:56 pmWe leftists stand for things like worker’s rights, universal health care, things that mongol morons care little about.
Wayne, nicely said. These chickenhawk punk ass dufi would wet their pants if they found themselves in combat. Probably ‘wound’ themselves to get sent stateside. Hell, they might even shoot their tiny dicks off, not of much use anyway.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:58 pmDon’t forget RUC, we “leftists” also want our government to answer to us and do little things like honoring subpoenas.
June 10th, 2008 at 6:06 pmGunclinger: damned right you’re not perfect.
YOU ARE DEFENDING THE INDEFENSIBLE.
That you can’t see it is NOT my problem, bud. It’s yours.
June 10th, 2008 at 6:08 pmgunclinger Says:
So many angry people here and what is strange is that we all agree that torture is horrible and illegal in the US. Weird.
Just the US?
So, Guantanamo is OK? There’s a thing called the Geneva Conventions, that says torture is horrible and illegal everywhere, so why would you stop at the US?
June 10th, 2008 at 6:12 pmLeftside Annie Says:
Gunclinger: damned right you’re not perfect.
YOU ARE DEFENDING THE INDEFENSIBLE.
That you can’t see it is NOT my problem, bud. It’s yours.
Ding, ding, ding!!!
June 10th, 2008 at 6:12 pmExactly that.
YOU ARE DEFENDING THE INDEFENSIBLE.
pete Says:
The reason the famous “three cases” do deserve so much outrage is because no one has been punished. Bushco did it they should admit it, punish the guilty, apologize and move on. Instead they destroyed our international reputation by saying, “well we only did it cause we thought we had to”. That is un-effing-believably weak.
When the POTUS says “we don’t torture” it should be the strict 100% literal truth and should carry the implication that those who do indeed torture will be prosecuted.
very nice! that pretty much sums it up for me, don’t you guys think? I mean there is nothing left to say and yet it is still debated! and we run out of breathe trying to explain, well past being blue in the face, and they know damn well it is wrong. If you can hold a damn job, you know right from wrong.
June 10th, 2008 at 6:13 pmthey know it’s wrong, they just don’t give a sh*t. It isn’t convenient for them to care right from wrong because it isn’t profitable for them!
According to the Associated Press, at least 108 detainees have died in Iraq and Afghanistan in U.S. custody. [NYT, 3/16/05; BBC News, 3/16/05]
General Janet Karpinski said 90% were innocent. CIA has said 70-90% were innocent.
June 10th, 2008 at 6:14 pm“Defending the indefensible” is exactly what I was looking for. Thanx Annie. And that’s what has me so outraged about the Bush administration. It seems to have devolved into a vast machine whose only purpose is to defend the indefensible.
June 10th, 2008 at 6:15 pmwhat? innocent? and they died? I’m speachless
June 10th, 2008 at 6:16 pmOh, but the torture did not take place “in the United States”. That is their out. That is why they have the black sites. That is why they torture at Gitmo. None of them are “in the United States”. It’s all parsing words and when you get right down to it, torture is illegal and against the Geneva Convention anywhere in the world.
I am so looking forward to seeing these people brought up on war crimes. It will be very humiliating for the United States if we refuse to hold these people accountable for their actions and they are instead tried somewhere like the Hague. We will become the laughingstock of the world if that happens.
June 10th, 2008 at 6:17 pmpete Says:
“Defending the indefensible” is exactly what I was looking for. Thanx Annie.
Yep
June 10th, 2008 at 6:19 pmWish it would let me recommend Annie more than once for that one
Leftside Annie,
June 10th, 2008 at 6:20 pmI find your rude tone quite unpersuasive and somewhat hysterical.
Enough
Like Wayne, having been in combat, although a long time ago in Vietnam, it is clear that neither Attila nor gunclinger have ever been in combat anmost likely never in the service. I know no one (other than Johnny Boy, the ex-Naval aircraft crasher and Chickenhawks like Limpballs and billo) who are actually for it. You see, we have to worry about what will happen to us if we are captured.
But it would be nice if they would enlighten us as to their combat/military experience.
June 10th, 2008 at 6:22 pmits sole purpose is not to defend the indefensible… they could give a rats ass about defending anyone! did they give a rats ass about the fate of soldiers?
June 10th, 2008 at 6:22 pmdid they give a crap about the Iraqi civilians?
do they give a f@#k about what they did to Valerie Plame?
Were they not quick to disown and discredit anyone who revealed the truth?
no, my dears, not defend the indefensible.
It is aaaall about the ching ching and the bling bling- money makes their world go ’round!
gunclinger Says:
Get used to it; you have zero moral cred, after the last seven years. Go polish your Bush photo.
June 10th, 2008 at 6:24 pmgunclinger Says:
Keith, I said three known cases of terrorist *waterboarding* were reported. Just three. Those are the facts here. That’s why I thought all the waterboarding outrage is disproportionate given that our country has done far more devastating things to people in the past.
So, let me get this straight. You actually believe that we have been involved in only three cases of “watergoarding”? If you think that, you are an idiot. That is the number of cases we have found out about. Since our government has a habit of lying to us, I suspect that there are many more cases where we tortured detainees.
The fact is torturing even one detainee is WRONG. I notice you call them “terrorists”. How do you know that? Have they been proven to be “terrorists”? As far as I can tell not one of the people we have in indefinite custody have been proven to be terrorists. We are holding kangaroo trials in September where we will attempt to convict detainees of being terrorists based on their confessions they made after being tortured. Don’t you find it odd that we don’t seem to have any hard evidence against any of the detainees we are holding indefinitely in violation of international law?
June 10th, 2008 at 6:25 pmgunclinger,
June 10th, 2008 at 6:26 pmI find your rude existence quite a bore and somewhat lame.
Enough
That’s why I thought all the waterboarding outrage is disproportionate given that our country has done far more devastating things to people in the past.
So why did they destroy the recordings of the interrogations, if it was no big deal?
June 10th, 2008 at 6:28 pmbarfly Says:
gunclinger Says:
Get used to it; you have zero moral cred, after the last seven years. Go polish your Bush photo.
lol, that reminds me of the time I had to stop at the Social Security office and I saw those really scary pictures on the wall of Dubya and Dickey. omg, let’s talk about how scary that was. their heads look sooo big, they took up the whole frame. and Dickey had that evil Bond villain smirk! eek!
June 10th, 2008 at 6:30 pmoh yeah! what about the destroyed documents of interrogation?
June 10th, 2008 at 6:31 pmThe fact is torturing even one detainee is WRONG. I notice you call them “terrorists”. How do you know that? Have they been proven to be “terrorists”? As far as I can tell not one of the people we have in indefinite custody have been proven to be terrorists. We are holding kangaroo trials in September where we will attempt to convict detainees of being terrorists based on their confessions they made after being tortured. Don’t you find it odd that we don’t seem to have any hard evidence against any of the detainees we are holding indefinitely in violation of international law?
oh, yeah! hmmm.. what was that thing again? innocent until proven.. proven.. uhhh… (crickets in the back round) uhhh… hey Bevis, uhh..hehe…uhh… yeah, Butthead… uhh..hehe… what were we talking about?… oh, yeah! torturing? nah.. you wanna get a slurpy? … uhhh..innocent, uhmmm…hmmmm… I need teepee for my bunhole!
June 10th, 2008 at 6:36 pmYou remind me of a point that should always feature in these discussions Mr. Baggins. The act of holding foreign nationals incommunicado, indefinitely, without charge or hope of acquittal, is in violation of international law and considered by many to be torture in and of itself.
June 10th, 2008 at 6:36 pmgunclinger Says:
I also wrote that I question my own commitment to being against torture if there ever was a ticking nuclear bomb hidden somewhere in the US and we had the suspect in custody. I personally don’t believe that hundreds of thousands of innocent Americans should die horrible deaths so that some people can feel good about their moral stance on torture. Again, these situations may stretch my commitment to being against torture. That doesn’t make me a bad person, it makes me human.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
You do realize that you live in the real world, right? You are not, though this may be difficult for you to believe, a character on 24. The “ticking time bomb” scenario you torture-supporters love to throw out is beyond ludicrous. There is no concievable situation in this, the real world, in which we would need to torture someone in order to stop a nuclear bomb from going off. It can’t happen. It’s a bit of crappy paperback fiction used to scare voters into supporting an indefensible act of fascism.
June 10th, 2008 at 6:48 pmI would like to add that the “ticking time bomb” scenario would be an on the spot decision by an operative. The abuse of prisoners was, premeditated, ongoing and methodical. In fact, various degrees of abuse were clearly initiated by the highest levels of our government. This is not the case of a stressed out cop backhanding a lippy suspect. It’s more like a police chief ordering his force to round up everyone on their tip sheet and doing whatever they want to extract fresh leads.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:04 pmninique Says:
lol, that reminds me of the time I had to stop at the Social Security office and I saw those really scary pictures on the wall of Dubya and Dickey. omg, let’s talk about how scary that was. their heads look sooo big, they took up the whole frame. and Dickey had that evil Bond villain smirk! eek!
If Dick’s going back into ranching after leaving office, he’d better stay out of the barn, or the cows might mistake him for a weasel, and stomp his ass.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:07 pmIf there were a “ticking time bomb” scenario, it wouldn’t matter that torture is illegal, a responsible person would commit any act if they truly knew that there was a ticking time bomb.
It’s easy to contrive a scenario wherein it is justifiable to go as far as murder if you really thought that you would save the city, or planet or galaxy. Hell that’s what good movies are all about. And then it would be up to the person doing the torture to justify his actions before a jury. It’s still illegal.
But like Pete points out, that ain’t what we are talking about. We are talking about a premeditated, sanctioned by your President, systematic torture of prisoners.
Think Torquemada.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:22 pmpete Says:
I would like to add that the “ticking time bomb” scenario would be an on the spot decision by an operative. The abuse of prisoners was, premeditated, ongoing and methodical. In fact, various degrees of abuse were clearly initiated by the highest levels of our government.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:04 pm
_____
Not to mention that torture has been found to produce bogus results, according to the CIA’s torture manual:
http://www.gwu.edu/ ~nsarchiv/ NSAEBB/ NSAEBB27/ 01-19.htm
June 10th, 2008 at 7:25 pmVery true toasterhead. Besides which, the people in these scenarios who would posses the key info aren’t likely to break anyway. Especially if they knew they only had to hold out for a short time.
I don’t think anyone doubts that there are situations where individuals might think the best course is to break rules. And once in a great while they are right. That would be a legitimate use of a pardon. The problem arises when the official policy is to break the law, compounded by obstruction of attempted oversight.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:07 pm>In post 15 I simply said that all this
> “outrage” is
>disproportionate to the three times
it only takes a single case to set a precedent, bud. and when you start allowing the people who “knew where saddam’s weapons were” to act without consequence and allow them to torture at their discretion, you’ve started down a very dangerous road indeed. first, its true violent actors (mostly)..years later, when idiots like you think its acceptable, they will be torturing political dissidents instead of violent terrorists. are you truly no naive as to think that people in power will not abuse it?
please explain why you dont think jury nullification is a valid check against someone spending time in prison if thier torturing was truly just? do you think you could get a jury of 12 new yorkers to agree to convict a person that stopped the next 9-11 from hitting thier town?
and do you think its even possible that people who are allowed to torture might someday start abusing that privledge? if so, is that not a cause for concern?
June 10th, 2008 at 8:16 pm…and we actually elect these dumbasses to Congress.
Un-fu(king-believeable!
June 10th, 2008 at 9:28 pmWe had the suspected terrorist. We knew that there was a nuclear weapon held somewhere on the west coast and that it would go off in the next 24 hours. After five hours of intensive questioning we had gotten no where. We went to the torture method. After twenty minutes of the water cure he started to blather. He admitted that there was a weapon and that it was set to go off in seven hours. We pressed him hard but he refused to give more information. Back to the water board. In ten minutes he was singing again telling us that the weapon was hidden somewhere near SF in northern California. We checked the inter agency watch list but there were over two hundred names listed in the area. We checked out our list of suspected terrorist cells. There were thirty in the SF area. There many more in Seattle, San Diego, LA, Portland and other cities. NSA was going through its intercepts but since we had millions to go through, it would take days.
We dispatched our NEST teams when we water boarded him again and he identified Oakland as the site. That is when we heard the news, Tacoma had gone up in a nuclear blast. The damned bastard lied about the location and the time of the explosion.
June 11th, 2008 at 12:41 am.
And yet the G. Worstever Bush is good enough to remain in office…
Dear Congress,
Please parse this for America.
.
June 11th, 2008 at 1:17 amgunclinger Says:
TORTURE has redeeming qualities…
O’RELY?
Name me one redeeming quality to TORTURE.
Name me one redeeming quality to LIES.
Name me one redeeming quality to MURDER.
Name me one redeeming quality to FRAUD.
Name me one redeeming quality, JUST ONE!
… And I will show you someone who thinks crime pays, you sociopath.
.
June 11th, 2008 at 1:26 amGunclinger, I’m sorry, but you’re an idiot and Jack Bauer is not a real person. Let me school you on something a bloak much more intelligent than I and vastly more intelligent than you once said. His name was George Washington.
“‘Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to complain of our copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren who have fallen into their hands,’ he wrote. In all respects the prisoners were to be treated no worse than American soldiers; and in some respects, better. Through this approach, Washington sought to shame his British adversaries, and to demonstrate the moral superiority of the American cause.”
In the worst of times – when foreign troops literally occupied American soil, torturing and murdering American patriots – and few believed that the cause of the revolution could ultimately win against the might of the British Empire, the first Commander in Chief of the U.S.A. set the precedent that this society is to lead even our enemies by “benignant sympathy of [our] example.” To win the war against the occupying army of Redcoats, the American revolutionaries needed right on their side.
And it worked. Many of the German Hessians in fact joined the revolutionaries in their fight against the English and stayed here in America to be free when the war was won.
June 11th, 2008 at 1:10 pm