if we enforce the constition could be applied to just about ANY part of the constitution, if we used your logic we wouldnt have any freedumbs but hey, at least very little bad would happen, right?

You’re right. there is some obvious trade off between security and liberty. If we agree that government has to allow some jeopardy to our security (by trying the detainees and foregoing the idea of pre-emption) to permit a more universal liberty in a free world, I agree. I only think, when our security is breached in the future (either under Bush, Obama, or McCain, or whomever), we should remember that it was a conscious choice to trade that security for liberty. And we should not point to failure of leadership, but to a collective conscious choice to value liberty over security.

You’ve changed my mind on this subject, the detainees at Guantanomo deserve a fair trial. If they’re released and commit terror acts, it’s still better than denying the principle that people deserve the right to a fair trial.

unless you can promise me that every single president who comes after bush will be more honest than he, what’s going specifically in the mind of bush is irrelevant. its about the power we give to people in his position. and the people you’re playing advocate for are arguing they should be able to do whatever they want, they are arguing they should able to sexually torture children, all with nothing to keep them in check but their own good judgement. now if you really want to put this much power in the hands of peoeople who, a scant few years ago were insisting they knew exactly where saddams weapons were, more power to ya .

i just think any responsible constituional scholar would think you are crazy. the argument that “bad things have happened and bad people have escaped punishment” if we enforce the constition could be applied to just about ANY part of the constitution, if we used your logic we wouldnt have any freedumbs but hey, at least very little bad would happen, right?

im as much of a doubting thomas as anyone, and belive me, i question everything i beleive. but if your going to throw your lot in with people who claim they should have the right to sexually torture children with impunity, im going to stop listening at some point.

Well, and now, I just can’t let you go, because you just might be …ah, *annoyed* at me.

You see how it is, right, Backup? You understand, right?

Sorry, old chap, I’m sure you won’t hold that against me.

~President Leftside Annie

Let me pose this question to see how far you are willing to go to ensure the liberty of the detainees:

“President Leftside Annie, we the people have decided that it in not right to detain Backup in Gitmo. Objections to letting him/her/it go seem to be that you are concerned he/she/it will commit future terror acts. We agree to not hold you accountable if Backup goes insane and kills the first person he/she/it sees. Even if you feel he/she/it is a threat, we acknowledge what you think, but want Gitmo closed anyway. And agree to take responsibility for whatever acts Backup engages in. An additional suggestion is that trying Backup would be so embarrassing to you and your administration, that you refuse to do it. Although we disagree with your policy of detention, we are willing to absolve you of any liability for Backup’s unjust detention if you release him/her/it immediately.”

Let me know if that’s all ok with you. Idiot.

WE WILL HOLD GEORGE W. BUSH ACCOUNTABLE FOR EVERYTHING.

Because this whole g*ddamned mess IS HIS FAULT in the first place.

You stupid, stupid, stupid idiot. Why can’t you get that through your head????

Although we disagree with your policy of detention, we are willing to absolve you of any liability for their unjust detention if you release them immediately.”

Is it so hard to fathom?
Rule of Law.
Each and every one of those detainees deserve humane treatment.
They deserve access to their lawyers.
Each deserve to know why they are being held.
Each deserves the right to dispute the charges and have a FAIR trial.
By Law

That also includes absolving Bush from any crimes He Committed.
He deserves to know the charges
He has a right to a lawyer.
He has a right to be treated humanly, even though he denied that right to others.
He deserves a fair trial, with all evidence for prosecution and defense duely presented and not suppressed to insure that fair trial.
The same rights that “goddamned piece of paper” as Bush calls it, provides for also you or me.

Get it yet?
He violated the Constitution.
He has violated his oath of office.

Let me pose this question to see how far you are willing to go to ensure the liberty of the detainees:

“President Bush, we the people have decided that it in not right to detain those in Gitmo. Objections to letting them go seem to be that you are concerned they will commit future terror acts. We agree to not hold you accountable if they do. Even if you feel they are a threat, we acknowledge what you think, but want Gitmo closed anyway. And agree to take responsibility for whatever acts they engage in. An additional suggestion is that trying the detainees would be so embarrassing to you and your administration, that you refuse to do it. Although we disagree with your policy of detention, we are willing to absolve you of any liability for their unjust detention if you release them immediately.”

They also have children working as slaves in the factories, air so polluted that it kills people, water so poisoned you can’t drink it, toys and toothpaste full of lead, contaminated food and schools that fall down and kill children when the earth shakes.

Your grandmother died from emphysema? Your grandfather got sick from drinking tap water? Your kid has lead poisoning – and he can’t go to work in the factory? Your other kid was killed when her classroom collapsed in a 4.0 quake?

Too bad, so sad.

You want unbridled, unregulated and unfettered capitalism, backup? Go to China.

Cheers,

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

We, the People, backup.
We want to promote the general welfare.
We want to securee the blessings of Liberty.

You believe that helping ordinary people is wrong, wimpy, immature.
I know why, because you believe that the magic of the free market wil magically make everything better if only we refuse to take money from the rich and refuse to help the losers.

Well, I believe in Adam Smith who said in the Wealth of Nations that unless the nation as a whole prospers, riches do not forestall that nation’s collapse and decay. The vast treasures Spain looted from the New World did not boost Spain–but because only the nobility prospered from it, Spainbecame a husk of the nation.

The General Welfare, backup.

To hear the theorists of the time say it, providing Old age pensions, workmen’s compensation, a 40 hour work week,a minimum wage, and the right to organize into unions would destroy the American Economy because it would shackle the great engine of capitalism. Well, we did it anyway, and guess what happened? The United States became the wealthiest and most prosperous nation in the world.

There are many reasons for this–like the fact that an industry needs a consumer base as well as a work force. Captains of industry can’t just ship pig iron back and forth between theirfactories–sooner or later they’ve got to sell stuff, and for that you need people with money and personal security to buy it.
It’s also because ‘losers’ aren’t losers all the time, or at everything. The kid who subsists on food stamps can in fact grow up to be the head of the Harvard Law Review and be sniped at as an elitist. And that a country where if you try and fail you don’t die in the gutter is a country where you can try again, and a country where people are less scared to try the first time.

America today is not filled with losers; it’s filled with people for whom life got a lot more difficult a lot quicker. Gas went up to 4bucks a gallon–and the only hybrids are from Japan. The crisis occurred, and the auto companies ignored, so now the automobile companies are failing too. That’s the triumph of the free market for you.

But it hurts the general welfare. And that makes the country poorer.

What we want government to be is right there on the label.

Is it ok with you if I sweep you up off the street and put you in Gitmo for 6 years, not allow you to contact your family, speak to a lawyer, sleep in peace (without playing Lawrence Welk and Barry Manilow at all hours of the night at deafening volume), putting underwear on your head, threatening you with ferocious dogs (oops, sorry – Fido BITES! He didn’t mean to, I’m sure!!)…

And then – after those 6 long, long, long years have passed, I say to you, “Sorry, backup, we can’t let you go – because you’re probably so darn mad at us now that you might go out and bomb something.”

I guess that’d be just fine with you, eh? Since President Leftside Annie was only protecting America and all, right…?

Sure. Of course.

I doubt you do.

we can agree to disagree on this point.

I feel pretty confident when I say “we” feel let down by government.

Will a new president and a new congress really solve our problems?