CBS’s Lara Logan: ‘Tell me the last time you saw the body of a dead American soldier.’
CBS’s Lara Logan: ‘Tell me the last time you saw the body of a dead American soldier.’
Appearing on the Daily Show last night, CBS’s Chief Foreign Correspondent Lara Logan crticized the lack of media attention to the Iraq war. She said she felt responsible for the fact that “no one really understands” what is happening in Iraq. She also said that the soldiers there “feel forgotten”:
Tell me the last time you saw the body of a dead American soldier. What does that look like? Who in American knows what that looks like? Because I know what that looks like, and I feel responsible for the fact that no one else does. … And the soldiers do feel forgotten, they do. No doubt. From Afghanistan to Iraq, they absolutely feel — you know, we may be tired of hearing about this five years later, they still have to go out and do the same job.
Watch it:
In 2004, the conservative-controlled Senate backed President Bush’s ban of photos of military coffins returning to Dover Air Force base. The Pentagon still restricts journalists’ access to military funerals.
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Out of sight – out of mind. If Americans saw the images that the rest of the world sees on their newscasts, the war would come to an abrupt halt. This is as much the medias fault for sanitizing the news as this cowardly administration.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:54 amhttp://www.comedianforpresident.com/
JohnR Says:
the media and this cowardly administration have in bed together on this deal from the very beginning.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:57 amI suspect that one of the reasons why the Vietnam War received so much protest (besides the fact that the draft was alive and well at the time) was that it was delivered, unfiltered for the most part, directly to America’s living rooms. In the era before cable news, networks cared more about providing news than they did about following political marching orders.
The war in Iraq has been filtered and sanitized for our consumption. Even our elected officials who go there are given a dog and pony show with very little connection to reality. Battle deaths are mere statistics, not presented as real people leaving behind grieving families.
And yet, there is still plenty of protest. Imagine the level of American outrage if the filters were removed.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:03 am#1, Right On! The so called MSM is to blame as much or even more the the SHRUB, if we don`t see it, it never happened in the SHRUBS eyes.MSM is infotainment now so we can count them out of the picture, there are no more investigative news people out their anymore if there was we would see and hear all that is going on in Iraq and Afghanistan from our own MSM, because they are re-pukes(Reich wing owned) we will not see or hear because nobody in the business has enough BRASS to stand up to them.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:04 amTom Clancy said it best, “The control of information is something the elite always does, particularly in a despotic form of government. Information, knowledge, is power. If you can control information, you can control people.” That’s what this Administration’s been doing since day one. Congress was a willing enabler and the “Liberal Press” either went along for the ride, or was just following orders. Whichever, nobody spoke the truth to power and this insanity is a result. Hopefully this Administration’s myriad crimes will come fully to light and justice will be done.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:05 amImpeach Pelosi, Cheney and Bush and Save the Constitution.
One more consequence of having a Nanny state… “we don’t want children and soccer moms looking at dead corpses, it would be just awful and would break their precious little minds”.
(Never mind that those same people watch CSI and 24 all the time)
June 18th, 2008 at 10:09 amIdiots like Bill O’Reilly make the claim that the “liberal mainstream media” spins the war in a negative light and ignores successes because they want the war to fail. The truth is that the “war” is sanitized. We don’t know what a dead American soldier looks like. We aren’t even allowed to see flag-draped coffins. The MSM does remind us of the 4,000+ soldiers killed in Iraq but ignores the much larger number of Iraqis who have lost their lives since we invaded and began to occupy their country. The MSM refers to the occupation of Iraq as the Iraq War. The MSM picks up on the talking point that the surge is working and doesn’t remind us enough that the temporary surge has amounted to a long-term increase in troop levels. I could go on but I’m preaching to the choir. The “liberal” MSM has not done enough to illuminate the cost this occupation has cost us.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:10 amAnd yes, Dr. Hussein Matt, Lara Logan is a babe. A babe with a great South African accent.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:13 amRule 1 of the National Propaganda State:
“You do NOT have to try to control how people think if you can control what they think about.”
Rule 2 of the National Propaganda State:
June 18th, 2008 at 10:13 am“See Rule, 1, above.”
Just outta curiousity, anybody here think that, as Preznint, Obama would encourage the networks to be more forthcoming in their coverage of the murderous, bloody, violent ICORP of Iraq?
oh, wait…he’s gonna withdraw the troops…some of ‘em…sometime…in a coupla years? right?
June 18th, 2008 at 10:18 amLara Logan’s hot. But she hates America.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:21 amrogerse Says:
Well, I hardly think
The only part of this post that made any sense.
The BushCo people learned from the Nixon era that the “enemies” were Congress, the Courts, and the Media. They have been systematically seeking to control the information and power contained in these institutions for 30 years. And we now have the results.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:26 amtokin librul Says:
Just outta curiousity, anybody here think that, as Preznint, Obama would encourage the networks to be more forthcoming in their coverage of the murderous, bloody, violent ICORP of Iraq?
Probably yes. It’s better than hiding the violence in Iraq and pretending everything is flowers and candy over there, and painting schools, and that the 4000+ dead soldiers must have died by happiness overdose or something.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:28 amtokin librul Says:
Just outta curiousity, anybody here think that, as Preznint, Obama would encourage the networks to be more forthcoming in their coverage of the murderous, bloody, violent ICORP of Iraq?
June 18th, 2008 at 10:18 am
_______
Barack Obama is running for president, not assignment editor. It’s absolutely not the president’s job to influence media coverage in any way other than putting out a message with his administration’s preferred spin. It’s up to WE THE CONSUMERS to encourage the media to be more forthcoming in their stories.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:30 amLara Logan is one of the world’s great babes, in no small part because she is a fire-breathing hero, an actual journalist who goes out to the edge and comes back with the view from there. Some time back she made a splash replying to her chickenshit critics and I have been in awe ever since. She is up there with Bernard Fall and Michael Herr — while also being one of the world’s great beauties.
Be careful Lara Logan. There’s really no coming back from where you’ve been.
Long may she wave!
June 18th, 2008 at 10:31 amrogerse Says:
Well, I hardly think with so many other issues, the iraq war hasn’t had enough coverage.
we know about your lack of thinking, that’s why you’re a republican.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:31 amNot only has the Legislative branch, the Judicial branch and the Executive branch of this government failed the American people, our PRESS have also failed to present the truth to the American people. Shame on our press.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:34 amThousands of them, dead, and dying. We need this war to stop. Bring our troops home.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:35 amSince when does the press allow the president to bully them? If it wasn’t for the press, we would still be speaking “the King’s English”.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:35 amhussein toasterhead Says:
Barack Obama is running for president, not assignment editor. It’s absolutely not the president’s job to influence media coverage in any way other than putting out a message with his administration’s preferred spin. It’s up to WE THE CONSUMERS to encourage the media to be more forthcoming in their stories.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:30 am
______
That having been said, I do hope that an Obama administration would loosen DOD restrictions on media coverage of war-related issues, remove the gags from government scientists in NOAA and NASA and NIH and allow them to speak freely to the media without White House vetting, and avoid appointing members to the boards controlling NPR and PBS who would try to influence coverage in a political way.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:39 amThank you Lara Logan for saying what needed to be said,
June 18th, 2008 at 10:40 amImages of the dead and maimed are never pretty, but they are real – much more so than the fluff stuff they proffer on TeeHeeVee. Occasionally you’ll catch a glimpse of carnage on BBC or UniVision, but nothing on the garbage networks.
misshusseinmolly Says:
I suspect that one of the reasons why the Vietnam War received so much protest (besides the fact that the draft was alive and well at the time) was that it was delivered, unfiltered for the most part, directly to America’s living rooms.
Bingo! Every night on the six o’clock news there were films of dead, bloody American soldiers being removed from the battlefields of Vietnam. The propaganda masters of the Bush administration are well aware of the effect those images had on public opinion about the Vietnam War. Joseph Goebbels would be proud.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:44 am“And the soldiers do feel forgotten” and they are absolutely right.
Every time a war funding bill gets passed with no conditions on lowering troop levels, Congress forgot them.
Every time Bush & Cheney pushed for more troops and the surge is working, the Administration forgot them.
Every time a burial takes place and no media is there to record the event, MSM forgot them.
Every time KBR has sold their supplies for the soldiers to the highest bidder in town- the Administration turns a blind eye and they are forgotten.
It’s no wonder they feel forgotten, when they have been considered by this administration to be an expendable commodity for profiteering and oil. Until we start placing more value on human life then the moral outrage will not only echo in the blogosphere but in main stream society.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:46 amrogerse Says:
Well, I hardly think with so many other issues, the iraq war hasn’t had enough coverage.
But roger, you love this war. Why don’t you want more coverage of this glorious mission, led by your beloved Commander in Chief?
June 18th, 2008 at 10:49 amBurro can’t tell the difference between Bush and America.
The world hates Bush, but they still feel hope that America will survive him and his destructive policies.
There will be a worldwide party when Obama is elected. Brand America will mean something positive again, which will lead to more sales of American products abroad, which will help our economy and create jobs.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:53 amI listened to national propaganda radio this morning. There was coverage of the Celtics winning the NBA title and Paul Pierce winning MVP of the title series. There was less news on Iraq, only that there was a car bomb in Baghdad. There was a long story on email and how it was important to companies to be able to store and sort it. Nothing more on Iraq. Iraq has been reduced to nothing more than an occasional piece on the news, even the “liberal” news.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:54 amDr. Hussein Matt Says:
——————————————————————————–
burro Says:
But she hates America.
Prove it.
She said something that would probably make Bush unhappy, if he heard about it. What more proof do you need that she hates America?
June 18th, 2008 at 10:55 amrogerse Says:
American deaths last month — 19
But you didn’t know any of them, and you didn’t have to see the blood on your TV, so it’s all good.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:58 amMaking bush unhappy is one very good way to show your love for America.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:00 amrogerse Says:
you forgot to copy and paste the headline:
Iraqi violence down; war’s root causes unresolved.
better go back and practice your copying and pasting.
eh?
*
June 18th, 2008 at 11:02 amThe only way some of these soldiers will be home for Christmas will be wrapped up and boxed up like a present – a flag-covered present – for their loved ones.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:02 amWhaddya know? A real reporter. Add Michael Ware, and that makes two. I’ll bet their respective networks do the best they can to “adjust” the reporting that Logan and Ware do–the truth being so uncomfortable and all.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:03 amI’m an American living in Germany.
My neighbors understand that “the Americans” and “George Bush” are two entirely different things. Believe me, they still love Americans.
And believe me, they despise, loathe, and ridicule George Bush.
There are probably over a thousand parks, boulevards, streets and town squares in Germany named for John F. Kennedy. I asked my neighbor, Albert, age 88, if he thought there would ever be anything named for George Bush. His answer: “Not unless our farmers start giving names to their manure piles.”
June 18th, 2008 at 11:03 amrogerse Says:
Keep polishing, and that turd will have a high gloss in no time.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:04 amIn June as of the 16th 16 soldiers have died. 16 days 16 lives but it is just a number to you, rogerese and Tony Snow. The 4090 men and women have people who miss them. But don’t forget the children growing up without a father who is serving months and months because of stop loss. This isn’t what they signed up for ! The war is a lie perpetrated by an evil administration. Those of you supporting this travesty should be ashamed.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:05 amnaldo Says
* * *
Thanks, Naldo–I’m glad to hear that. I’m taking high-school students to Europe this summer; I’ve got my Obama hat for protection, but I’ve told them that it’s their job to be the best ambassadors they can be.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:06 amRogerse: sectarian communities are gearing up for a battle at the polls rather than slaughter in the streets.
* * *
June 18th, 2008 at 11:10 amOf course, the Maliki government is trying to exterminate the Sadrists before they can get to the polls.
Dr. Hussein Matt Says:
19 deaths too many. Any Americans deaths for herr dubyah’s lies is one too many.
551 deaths too many. The iraqui casualties also count. Please take them into consideration too.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:14 amDr. Hussein Matt Says:
LOL!!!!!!!! Yeeeeeeaaaaahhhh, another “turning point”!!! How many is that now, 45, 46? I lost count.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:06 am
_____
A 360-degree turning point is still a turning point.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:14 amis rogerse referring to the post which truncated the headline?
June 18th, 2008 at 11:19 amtexaslady Says:
The 4090 men and women have people who miss them.
roger won’t miss them. He didn’t know any of them.
Let’s not forget about the more than 30,000 Americans who are missing arms, legs, eyes, ect. Not to mention the unknown thousands who will suffer from PTSD for the rest of their lives.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:21 amSo very easy to promote and praise killing in a war….from far, far away. How many buddies have you held while they died rogerese ?
June 18th, 2008 at 11:22 amtexaslady Says:
——————————————————————————–
So very easy to promote and praise killing in a war….from far, far away. How many buddies have you held while they died rogerese ?
roger doesn’t do that. It’s messy and scary. Fortunately for roger, his leader has seen to it that others will die in roger’s place.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:25 amYesterday a story from the San Antonio rehab, a soldier, only survivor of a ied. totallly burned face, probably lose an arm, struggeling with trauma symptoms trying to rebuild his life and his family’s. San Antonio rehab was built by private funding because the VA is short on rehab facilties. So this is the administration you support, rogerese, one that does not take care of the wounded they sent for a lie ? How do you sleep at night ?
June 18th, 2008 at 11:26 amRe-instate the draft or raise the income tax to pay the bill for Iraq and the war will be over in a couple of weeks.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:26 amBush has successfully abstracted the cost in blood and treasure so it is palatable. Take his illusion away and a siege on the village begins.
rogerse Says:
——————————————————————————–
Dr. Hussein Matt Says:
19 deaths too many. Any Americans deaths for herr dubyah’s lies is one too many.
and thats with your assumption that the war is bad,
roger, most of us don’t get email from the RNC listing updated talking points. What is the latest the latest rational for the war?
June 18th, 2008 at 11:31 amThere are so few qualified journalists in Iraq; Logan is among them.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:33 amI saw her on the Daily Show last night. My first reaction was “wow, she’s really young.” My second reaction was cheering…her passion and strength of character was really impressive.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:33 amAmerican Deaths Since war began (3/19/03): 4101
American Wounded Official Estimated Total: 30333
June 18th, 2008 at 11:36 amburro Says:
But she hates America.
Prove it.
I was kidding. It was a failed attempt at snark. You know how the patriotism and allegiance of anyone to the U.S. or it’s goals is questioned anytime they call out ShrubCo on it’s B.S. Lara Logan is intelligent, persistent and brave. And unique in her willingness to state the truth.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:37 amTotally agree, moondancer, until the war affects EVERYONE, many could care less. How many Young Republicans enlisted ? Last I heard none. Does anyone else notice how those who talk the talk won’t walk the walk ? Starting with their idol, awol bush.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:37 amI admit it. I’m shallow. My first reaction on seeing and hearing Logan was “YOW! I need to start watching CBS again.” After slapping myself around for being bad, I listened to her talking to Stewart and was even more impressed, not only with what an amazing young woman she is but that CBS gives her any airtime.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:42 amshoeless Says:
——————————————————————————–
misshusseinmolly Says:
I suspect that one of the reasons why the Vietnam War received so much protest (besides the fact that the draft was alive and well at the time) was that it was delivered, unfiltered for the most part, directly to America’s living rooms.
Bingo! Every night on the six o’clock news there were films of dead, bloody American soldiers being removed from the battlefields of Vietnam. The propaganda masters of the Bush administration are well aware of the effect those images had on public opinion about the Vietnam War. Joseph Goebbels would be proud.
AND – we lost in Vietnam.
In WWII there was obviously no television, but newsreels did not show dead Americans, they showed victorious Americans liberating cities from the Axis. There was one set of pictures run in either Time or Life that showed dead Marines – their faces obscured by mud and water – after an amphibious assault in the Pacific. The piece was much criticized. By in large, the media of the time presented positive news about the war, in the same way they avoided depicting FDR in his wheel chair and didn’t write about his affairs.
Times have changed, obviously. I am not arguing for propaganda, but it is true information is power. AQ didn’t publish those beheading videos for fun, they had a political point behind it.
War opponents have a vested interest in showing as much blood and death on TV as they can. They want the war to end, and showing the details of the horror is a way to do that – whether the way it ends benefits the country or not.
Think for a second though – do you really want torn apart Americans beamed into your living room? Into their families living room? This is an honest question. If you really want to see such images I am sure they are available on the Internet.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:48 amHere is a charming link to a reeaaallly charming site if you feel the need for some blood and guts and rabid anti-Americanism.
http://mindprod.com/politics/iraqdontmarry.html#DONTMARRY
It is the first link when you Google “dead american soldier pictures”. I’ll see if there are any other gems there.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:54 am“But she hates America.”
What, no flag pin?
June 18th, 2008 at 12:00 pmI had to go to the third hit on Google before the source of the dead American soldier pictures was made available from Al-Qaeda – impressive!
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/184744.php
Can you all see what I am getting at here? That is, for those who know me and aren’t currently composing hate mail?
Propaganda is a two way street. If your enemy wants to have a certain image thrown in the public sphere, should your own media help them do it? The Viet Cong knew damn well that the American media was the most potent weapon they had. They got their assess kicked in the Tet Offensive, but when Cronkite declared afterward that the war was unwinnable, it became a strategic victory of the highest order.
Think about it.
June 18th, 2008 at 12:02 pmKeltoi Says:
“Here is a charming link to a reeaaallly charming site if you feel the need for some blood and guts and rabid anti-Americanism.”
No thanks, Keltoi. I don’t need to go to the sites that you masturbate to. When are you enlisting again?
June 18th, 2008 at 12:02 pmKeltoi Says:
AND – we lost in Vietnam.
Wow. That’s a heck of a leap. Here’s a title for you to find and read, Keltoi. And take a gander at who published the book and the author’s qualifications.
June 18th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
Keltoi Says:
AND – we lost in Vietnam.
We didn’t lose in Vietnam because it was on TV. We lost in Vietnam because we were fighting on the side of a horribly corrupt government which was not supported by the people of Vietnam.
June 18th, 2008 at 12:04 pmrogerse Says:
shoeless Says:
your not even arguing the legitimacy or progress, which would counter your attempt to stirr up emotion over the lower casualties.
what is it with trolls and spell check? we know you know how to copy and paste, isn’t time you moved on and acquired new computer skills? conservatives are indeed learning challenged.
*
June 18th, 2008 at 12:09 pmshoeless Says:
Keltoi Says:
AND – we lost in Vietnam.
We didn’t lose in Vietnam because it was on TV. We lost in Vietnam because we were fighting on the side of a horribly corrupt government which was not supported by the people of Vietnam.
GEORGE SANTAYANA:
Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
*
June 18th, 2008 at 12:11 pmKeltoi-
Propaganda and the truth are two different things. Your Dear Leader employs propaganda to further the conflict which in turn causes more American and Iraqi’s to die in a needless war of HIS choosing and his friends profit. His urging of his corporate friends that own the news media into NOT showing America the honest unfiltered truths about his war is another form of propaganda. Your WWII reference doesn’t apply. There were significant successes and it was a just cause that America and the world supported. Bush’s war is a disaster from practically every angle, despite the arduous tasks put to our men and women in uniform. The world understands (with the exception of the trolls here and a small number of neocons) that entering Iraq was not only wrong, but that George Bush lied and connived his way into a conflict of choice with no plan to follow up the initial invasion coupled with an arrogant pig-headedness to admit fault or change course or even to honestly listen to his commanders on the ground. EVERY one of them that didn’t back up his agenda have been fired and replaced with yes-men. Compliance by the media goes against many of the principles this Country was founded on. Showing the grim realities on main stream news shows would not be propaganda but simply honest journalism. Why don’t you log off and stick your head back in the sand?
June 18th, 2008 at 12:19 pmThose who cannot learn from history become Republicans.
June 18th, 2008 at 12:25 pmFirst of all, I didn’t raise the Vietnam model, Miss Molly and shoeless did. There are many similarities between Vietnam and Iraq, but we all know that and I don’t know we need to rehash them here.
Second, the topic of this thread is whether the media is sugar coating the war because there aren’t dead bodies on TV. Again, this is a topic that has been covered repeatedly. I think not allowing flag draped coffins to be shown is inappropriate and a dishonor to the sacrifice of our soldiers. I think showing their mutilated bodies is also inappropriate and a dishonor to their sacrifice. If you want to see it, it is available online.
Thirdly,
A Patriot Acting Says:
No thanks, Keltoi. I don’t need to go to the sites that you masturbate to.em>
is simply sick, and a hearty STFU to you for it.
June 18th, 2008 at 12:32 pmgummitch Says:
——————————————————————————–
I admit it. I’m shallow. My first reaction on seeing and hearing Logan was “YOW! I need to start watching CBS again.” After slapping myself around for being bad, I listened to her talking to Stewart and was even more impressed, not only with what an amazing young woman she is but that CBS gives her any airtime.
—
June 18th, 2008 at 12:36 pmWell if we are all confessing. I will admit that I was looking at her boobs. Still as shallow as this sounds I would like to remind those offended by my confession that there is some evolutionary basis for my behavior
Keltoi Says:
you need to make a convincing argument to prove your point. personal invective just won’t work.
thank you.
*
June 18th, 2008 at 12:38 pmKeltoi Says:
There are many similarities between Vietnam and Iraq,
The main one being that we didn’t win in Vietnam because there was nothing to win.
June 18th, 2008 at 12:41 pmjoe cantwell Says:
——————————————————————————–
Keltoi Says:
you need to make a convincing argument to prove your point. personal invective just won’t work.
thank you.
I very, very rarely resort to personal invective, which I suspect you know. The comment by “Patriot” was beyond the pale, however.
As to the argument, I believe I did so in my first several posts on this thread.
June 18th, 2008 at 1:20 pmKeltoi Says:
As to the argument, I believe I did so in my first several posts on this thread.
Unless I missed it somehow, you failed to address the issue of “why we lost in Vietnam” other than to point the finger at the media, which has been the classic conservative scapegoat.
June 18th, 2008 at 1:22 pmAND – we lost in Vietnam.
if so, it was only because we refused to declare victory and leave.
June 18th, 2008 at 1:23 pmThe main difference between Iraq and Vietnam is that Bush declared victory and refused to leave.
June 18th, 2008 at 1:27 pmKeltoi Says:
joe cantwell Says:
——————————————————————————–
Keltoi Says:
you need to make a convincing argument to prove your point. personal invective just won’t work.
thank you.
I very, very rarely resort to personal invective, which I suspect you know. The comment by “Patriot” was beyond the pale, however.
As to the argument, I believe I did so in my first several posts on this thread.
when making an argument you must support your thesis with at least three objective and reliable sources. it’s absolutely necessary to cite these sources either as footnotes or in your bibliography.
good luck.
*
June 18th, 2008 at 1:28 pmgummitch Says:
——————————————————————————–
Keltoi Says:
As to the argument, I believe I did so in my first several posts on this thread.
Unless I missed it somehow, you failed to address the issue of “why we lost in Vietnam” other than to point the finger at the media, which has been the classic conservative scapegoat.
Ah! No, I declined that argument in 78 as too much of a ..dare I say quagmire?..to get involved in, and generally agree with the points you raise in 74 as to the multiple reasons for our loss, though I do think my argument in 70 vis the media, Viet Cong and the loss of the war are valid.
Again, I didn’t bring Vietnam up. But it is true the media coverage missmolly and shoeless describe helped destroy American morale, and was far more graphic than the coverage in Iraq or Afghanistan.
June 18th, 2008 at 1:29 pmKeltoi Says:
gummitch Says:
——————————————————————————–
Keltoi Says:
As to the argument, I believe I did so in my first several posts on this thread.
Unless I missed it somehow, you failed to address the issue of “why we lost in Vietnam” other than to point the finger at the media, which has been the classic conservative scapegoat.
Ah! No, I declined that argument in 78 as too much of a ..dare I say quagmire?..to get involved in, and generally agree with the points you raise in 74 as to the multiple reasons for our loss, though I do think my argument in 70 vis the media, Viet Cong and the loss of the war are valid.
Again, I didn’t bring Vietnam up. But it is true the media coverage missmolly and shoeless describe helped destroy American morale, and was far more graphic than the coverage in Iraq or Afghanistan.
1) three objective and reliable sources.
2) footnotes or
3) bibliography
thank you.
*
June 18th, 2008 at 1:33 pmKeltoi Says:
Ah! No, I declined that argument in 78 as too much of a ..dare I say quagmire?..to get involved in, and generally agree with the points you raise in 74 as to the multiple reasons for our loss, though I do think my argument in 70 vis the media, Viet Cong and the loss of the war are valid.
So the answer is no, I didn’t miss your response. You simply repeat your argument that the media was complicit in the failure of the US to “win” in Vietnam and ignore the evidence to the contrary, including a scholarly book on the subject (and there are plenty more). I repeat myself therefore: the media was scapegoated.
You say the media was responsible for a loss of morale. I say the media was responsible (for once) for opening the eyes of the American public to reality. No more Hollywood romantic visions of war. No, this is what was really happening.
June 18th, 2008 at 1:41 pmjoe cantwell Says:
1) three objective and reliable sources.
2) footnotes or
3) bibliography
thank you.
Joe – this is a blog, not a high school history assignment.
I am not doing the Vietnam thing. I will offer my observation as simply that.
However, if you think the media had nothing to do with losing Vietnam, not only are you disagreeing with Missmolly and shoeless, you are I think ignoring a pretty well documented and widely accepted historical event. LBJ himself said “If I’ve lost Walter I’ve lost the country.”
BTW, I never said “the media was the sole reason we lost Vietnam”. You are putting a thesis in my mouth, though again, media coverage was a contributing factor to the loss.
June 18th, 2008 at 1:47 pmgummitch Says:
So the answer is no, I didn’t miss your response. You simply repeat your argument that the media was complicit in the failure of the US to “win” in Vietnam and ignore the evidence to the contrary, including a scholarly book on the subject (and there are plenty more). I repeat myself therefore: the media was scapegoated.
Well, I haven’t had the chance to read your book in the last hour. I will leave this topic with the admission that the role the media played in Vietnam is open to debate. Okay?
June 18th, 2008 at 1:49 pmKeltoi Says:
joe cantwell Says:
1) three objective and reliable sources.
2) footnotes or
3) bibliography
thank you.
Joe – this is a blog, not a high school history assignment.
I am not doing the Vietnam thing. I will offer my observation as simply that.
However, if you think the media had nothing to do with losing Vietnam, not only are you disagreeing with Missmolly and shoeless, you are I think ignoring a pretty well documented and widely accepted historical event. LBJ himself said “If I’ve lost Walter I’ve lost the country.”
BTW, I never said “the media was the sole reason we lost Vietnam”. You are putting a thesis in my mouth, though again, media coverage was a contributing factor to the loss.
sorry, i was only trying to help you, i didn’t mean to bring up your painful memories of high school. however allow me to offer you this timely tip; let your research to determine the core of your thesis or argument. this way you can be an honest broker of the truth instead of just another run of the mill troll.
i wish you good luck on your quest.
*
June 18th, 2008 at 1:54 pmKeltoi Says:
Well, I haven’t had the chance to read your book in the last hour. I will leave this topic with the admission that the role the media played in Vietnam is open to debate. Okay?
Slow reader? You didn’t even acknowledge the book existed, or bother to read the review or the excerpt.
But you have read A Bright Shining Lie, right? Right?
June 18th, 2008 at 2:04 pmgummitch Says:
Slow reader? You didn’t even acknowledge the book existed, or bother to read the review or the excerpt.
Man, you are in a crabby mood today. If you’ll read my post at 87 you’ll see I not only acknowledged the excerpt you posted at 74 but agreed with it’s main thrust. Jeez.
June 18th, 2008 at 2:14 pmThe media’s fault? Not even close.
Th press was used in both Vietnam and Iraq. In Vietnam they were used to show the human cost of our casualties while in Iraq they’ve been used to show how “clean and easy” our efforts are. And, they have been effective, to a point.
The problem is that, short of actual colonization, it’s impossible to occupy a hostile land indefinitely. It’s a cardinal rule of statecraft that occasional tyrants forget. They delude themselves into thinking that their special genius will allow them to pull it off. None of them have been right yet. In fact, most of them come to bad ends by the hands of people they’ve wronged.
June 18th, 2008 at 2:17 pmKeltoi Says:
Man, you are in a crabby mood today. If you’ll read my post at 87 you’ll see I not only acknowledged the excerpt you posted at 74 but agreed with it’s main thrust. Jeez.
It’s a crabby subject.
June 18th, 2008 at 2:20 pmgummitch Says:
It’s a crabby subject.
Yeah. At least we can agree the girl is cute.
June 18th, 2008 at 2:24 pmPersonally. I haven’t been crabby since an unfortunate incident in a Mexican Cantina in 1982. But, when the Administration defies the Will of the People? It makes me spitting mad.
Fortunately the heavy handedness of Bushco means they could lock down the media and their faults would still be clear for all to see. I really don’t think Faux will be able to save the neocons.
June 18th, 2008 at 2:29 pmKeltoi Says:
gummitch Says:
It’s a crabby subject.
Yeah. At least we can agree the girl is cute.
Ooooh, you called her a “girl.” You’re so gonna get it. Except no one else is reading this.
Years ago, I worked with a blonde South African woman with the same accent, which made the fact that she was stone gorgeous just that much more difficult to ignore. I’m thinking it’s the Dutch stock.
June 18th, 2008 at 2:33 pmKeltoi Says:
Were you in Vietnam? Iraq? Afghanistan?
I was in combat in Vietnam and I also helped stop the war when I came home along with a lot of other very brave Americans. And to ignore the similarities between these two clusterfu(ks i s not being honest with yourself or the American people.
My advice; Plead for more coverage, so the world will know what war is really like. And, even more importantly, to know what a worthless, ego-driven, immoral war and occupation is really like.
THEN come back and let’s talk, OK?
June 18th, 2008 at 2:34 pmGeorge W. Bush does not care about the suffering of anyone – not US troops, not the Iraqi people and not the American people. He simply does not care. He may even take some sadistic pleasure in all the misery he has unleashed – perhaps it all makes this weak and cowardly little man feel powerful. Unfortunately, his lack of caring and responsibility bleeds down to the people he was selected to lead. Our country – the people and the media – seem to be mirroring the callousness and disregard that he so clearly portrays. What has happened to us? Will we ever heal?
June 18th, 2008 at 2:43 pmupside99 Says:
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Keltoi Says:
Were you in Vietnam? Iraq? Afghanistan?
No, I have not served, thank you for your service. Truly.
I was in combat in Vietnam and I also helped stop the war when I came home along with a lot of other very brave Americans. And to ignore the similarities between these two clusterfu(ks i s not being honest with yourself or the American people.
I acknowledged in post 78 the two conflicts share many aspects.
My advice; Plead for more coverage, so the world will know what war is really like. And, even more importantly, to know what a worthless, ego-driven, immoral war and occupation is really like.
I will not argue with one who has seen combat first hand whether it is good that it be shown on TV, though I respectfully disagree with you on whether it it a good idea to do so.
June 18th, 2008 at 3:03 pmKeltoi. How can We the People make wise decisions without all the info? Controlling the messages which reach the American people is the work of a dictator. There is no room for it in American society.
June 18th, 2008 at 3:18 pmKeltoi,
Thank you for responding, I do appreciate it.
But what I didn’t ask, was do you think the original invasion and the current occupation is justified?
If so, why?
If not, then why wouldn’t we better off getting the truth to the people and getting out and on with our lives and the lives of our troops?
June 18th, 2008 at 3:36 pmpete Says:
Keltoi. How can We the People make wise decisions without all the info? Controlling the messages which reach the American people is the work of a dictator. There is no room for it in American society.
I agree in general. But the Administration isn’t controlling the message that reachs the people, the networks are censoring themselves.
I am not sure that a picture of pile of meat and organs that was once a US soldier is “information”. Not a day goes by that the media doesn’t mention over 4000 dead soldiers – if you don’t know what HE does to a human body and are curious, it is extremely easy to find such pictures. But I think people understand modern war is hideous.
I also think you could have a cable channel solely devoted to showing the carnage and no one would tune in to it. It is simply too harsh, or at least it is if you are mentally healthy.
I was glued to the TV in the weeks after 9-11. I did not see one single image of a pulverized body being pulled from the debris; the media censored it. In the “911″ special, when the bodies of people jumping to their deaths impacted the roof where the filming was being done, they didn’t run out and film the pool of crushed flesh. There was one printed picture I saw of a person jumping, and the paper that ran it came under some intense criticism.
When some psycho goes berserk and blows people away in a school, the media censors that, too.
So I guess Pete, I am saying that We the People can make wise decisions on war without looking at the pictures of it live on the TV. And again, if we feel the need to further inform ourselves, it is very easy to do.
June 18th, 2008 at 3:40 pmupside99 Says:
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Keltoi,
Thank you for responding, I do appreciate it.
But what I didn’t ask, was do you think the original invasion and the current occupation is justified?
If so, why?
I supported the initial invasion. I believed the WMD thing, as did many others from many nations and of both parties. I also believed we would do a better job post-Saddam. He was a monster oppressing his people – I thought they’d be glad to be rid of him. It all boils down to raging incompetence in the post military operations phase.
And I do want us out, but not at the cost of seeing all the blood and treasure we’ve spent so far go for naught. I DO think, finally, security is improving and the Iraqi Army is beginning to resemble a secular, professional force dedicated to protecting all its people instead of butchering them.
You were in the Service – how long does it take to train a good platoon leader? 3 years under the best of circumstances? 5 years? We are close to seeing a corp of non-coms that have had that much time under American trainers.
I am an independent. I am leaning toward Obama. Iraq has not turned out how I thought it would, but getting out of there is going to be very, very tricky. And bear in mind, Obama when he began his campaign by opposing the Surge was using March 08 as a withdrawal date – what would be happening there now if we had done that?
Very complicated, and as Gummitch said, very crabby topic.
June 18th, 2008 at 3:52 pmThe carnage is part of the story. As are the flag-draped coffins, weeping families and 21 gun salutes. We must honor our fallen in death as in life and they, every single one, deserve to be remembered in their time and place.
And if you think the U.S. media isn’t being censored? Check out some foreign sources, or, try to get a major network to run a few seconds of film from al Jazeera or the BBC.
June 18th, 2008 at 3:54 pmpete Says:
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The carnage is part of the story. As are the flag-draped coffins, weeping families and 21 gun salutes. We must honor our fallen in death as in life and they, every single one, deserve to be remembered in their time and place.
I am angry that the government has made access to the coffins and the ceremonies so difficult, so in that sense I agree with you completely. Maybe it is just a matter of where you draw the line. I do not think showing their brutalized remains honors the fallen. If it were me, I wouldn’t want my wife and kids to see it, I’d prefer they remember me as I was, not as a bomb made me.
And if you think the U.S. media isn’t being censored? Check out some foreign sources, or, try to get a major network to run a few seconds of film from al Jazeera or the BBC.
With Al-Jazeera I believe it is cultural. They WANT to show their people their dead so they will get pissed off and go fight infidels. It is pointless to compare the Arab worldview to the Western world view on violence and the appropriate depiction thereof, it is apples and oranges.
As far as the BBC, are they running mangled body images on the telly? I would be surprised by that, but I could be wrong.
June 18th, 2008 at 4:04 pmKeltoi,
As I know you have heard many times; why Saddam when there were many other leaders as bad or worse? Doesn’t that make you stop and think about the rational behind the invasion in the first place?
And what security are we providing them long-term? This is a 3-way (at least) civil and religious war, where there is no ‘right’ side for us. we need to get out and ASAP.
And what about all of the 58 bases that BushCo and the NeoCons are trying to get for us? Is that a sign they want to EVER pull out? Don’t you feel a sovereign country should have the right to decide their own fate?
It is like when you keep hitting your head against the wall, all that happens is that your head still hurts. But if you stop, your head will stop hurting, right?
June 18th, 2008 at 4:16 pmupside99 Says:
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Keltoi,
As I know you have heard many times; why Saddam when there were many other leaders as bad or worse? Doesn’t that make you stop and think about the rational behind the invasion in the first place?
16 UN Resolutions ignored, no fly zone, history of conflict, heart of the Middle East, enabler if not covert supporter of terrorism, all the same old arguments, lets just not, please.
And what security are we providing them long-term? This is a 3-way (at least) civil and religious war, where there is no ‘right’ side for us. we need to get out and ASAP.
I agree. But the P in ASAP stands for “possible”. Long term, they must provide their own security, and I think they are very close to being able to do so.
And what about all of the 58 bases that BushCo and the NeoCons are trying to get for us? Is that a sign they want to EVER pull out? Don’t you feel a sovereign country should have the right to decide their own fate?
That is some bad stuff, and I am glad Maliki is opposing this “deal”. Since Bush isn’t sending it through Congress, the next President will have complete authority to sh*t can this arrangement.
It is like when you keep hitting your head against the wall, all that happens is that your head still hurts. But if you stop, your head will stop hurting, right?
A bit of a simplification, but I think in general we agree. And none of that even touches the billions being spent, cheapening the dollar, raising the debt. Out, yes. When and how? I look forward to the Presidential debates on who has the best plan.
June 18th, 2008 at 4:23 pmKeltoi,
June 18th, 2008 at 4:30 pmThanks for your thoughtful responses, I do enjoy a reasonable discourse, even if we don’t agree on everything, we do on some issues.
Keltoi.
Why the fixation on “mangled body images”? What I mean is honest reporting from the front. The wailing Iraqis. The protests. The funerals, ours and theirs. The human cost of a brutal civil war precipitated by the acts of U.S. government officials.
None of those stories require gore to upset the squeamish and sensitive. However, they need to be told before our national atonement, and healing, can begin.
But mostly, we need to know the real cost before we can mourn. Until that happens we can’t begin to heal.
June 18th, 2008 at 4:33 pmpete Says:
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Keltoi.
Why the fixation on “mangled body images”? What I mean is honest reporting from the front. The wailing Iraqis. The protests. The funerals, ours and theirs. The human cost of a brutal civil war precipitated by the acts of U.S. government officials.
None of those stories require gore to upset the squeamish and sensitive. However, they need to be told before our national atonement, and healing, can begin.
But mostly, we need to know the real cost before we can mourn. Until that happens we can’t begin to heal.
Because missmolly and shoeless – who started this line and since abandoned me to it – specifically referenced the bloody newscasts as part of why Vietnam ended.
June 18th, 2008 at 4:49 pmupside99 Says:
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Keltoi,
Thanks for your thoughtful responses, I do enjoy a reasonable discourse, even if we don’t agree on everything, we do on some issues.
Back atcha, Upside. Thanks for the debate, much appreciated.
June 18th, 2008 at 4:52 pmBriefly HBO had a show on the triage treatment of our men and women wounded and suddenly it was taken off. Do we need gore in our living rooms you bet we do ! Most of America is sound assleep regarding what our soldiers are going through. Volunteered or not, most of the enlisted believed they were doing something honorable and most have come to be totally shaken that they were lied to by their government. When you are in late teens or early 20’s you still believe and they were lied to, wounded and killed by this administration.
June 18th, 2008 at 5:25 pmI see what you mean, Keltoi. But it wasn’t the bodies which defined the role of the media during our occupation of Vietnam. It was their dogged pursuit of the truth. Today’s generation of cable “journalist”, through complicity or duplicity, has become a tool of greedy private interests.
They begin with a premise and edit to support their claims. And none of the large, corporate, news organizations have confronted a top administration official with something like; “You obviously effed this (insert eff-up) up. It’s a complete FUBAR. How did this happen and how will you fix it?”
That’s what effective journalists do and there are still a few of them around. But, they don’t get bright, loud, shiny, prime-time shows. And “insiders” just avoid them. They are left to opine to smaller audiences.
Personally? I won’t be satisfied till the whole gang is dragged in front of banks of microphones and asked searching questions. Under Oath.
And if the “media moguls” are convinced it’s a money maker? It becomes MUCH more likely.
June 18th, 2008 at 6:26 pmWow… I admit I didn’t read all the replies, but I did read the first 20. I can honestly say that if you were to all die a horrible, slow, and painful death, I would laugh. I would, in all honesty, be completely pleased with your non-existence. You are not only a disgrace to America, but to the human race.
You slip minded idiots seem to think that humans are above all other creatures, but all evidence explicitly points to the fact that like all other living beings we do what we can to survive. As Americans, you are the alpha male and you are rolling over like a drunken sorority girl. Good Game. Maybe the French will want you, you seem to be their type.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:21 pmFriends don’t let friends blog drunk.
June 19th, 2008 at 12:23 amFor what it’s worth, people ARE beginning to see the dead bodies of the Iraq war. Maybe not American soldiers bodies, but the internet is providing plenty of images of the blood and guts and death and destruction over there, including images of dead, mangled children. This IS grabbing people’s attention. In fact, the demands the American people are beginning to make are crystalizing (as in the November ‘06 election) BUT our “elected officials” are NOT obeying the will of the people they were elected to serve; therein lies THE PROBLEM. Any Questions? Wait… I’ve got one… What are we going to do about these carpetbagging politicians, dems and repubs alike??? Make no mistake, it is up to WE THE PEOPLE to fix the problem and take back our country! Anyone for a million man march on D.C?
June 19th, 2008 at 4:31 pmNo question! As a college instructor in Broadcast News, Lara Logan’s comment that watching US news would bring her to shooting herself in the head says it all. Freedom of the Press in broadcasting has utterly failed to inform the public on an infinite range of critical topics due to the ruthless march toward profits only. Murrow’s warnings about television’s potential future as merely a “carnival” has been exceeded. Real stories, real investigation as well as investment in critical resources for news has all but disappeared. This historic keystone to democracy has been sold to the highest bidder. At a minimum, we owe it to our children – if not ourselves- to join and work to help any of the many organizations devoted to restoring diversity to media – if we are to have a future!
G.Davey, Ph. D.
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:37 am