G.Davey, Ph. D.

Omnipotency Says:

Friends don’t let friends blog drunk.

You slip minded idiots seem to think that humans are above all other creatures, but all evidence explicitly points to the fact that like all other living beings we do what we can to survive. As Americans, you are the alpha male and you are rolling over like a drunken sorority girl. Good Game. Maybe the French will want you, you seem to be their type.

They begin with a premise and edit to support their claims. And none of the large, corporate, news organizations have confronted a top administration official with something like; “You obviously effed this (insert eff-up) up. It’s a complete FUBAR. How did this happen and how will you fix it?”

That’s what effective journalists do and there are still a few of them around. But, they don’t get bright, loud, shiny, prime-time shows. And “insiders” just avoid them. They are left to opine to smaller audiences.

Personally? I won’t be satisfied till the whole gang is dragged in front of banks of microphones and asked searching questions. Under Oath.

And if the “media moguls” are convinced it’s a money maker? It becomes MUCH more likely.

Keltoi,
Thanks for your thoughtful responses, I do enjoy a reasonable discourse, even if we don’t agree on everything, we do on some issues.

Back atcha, Upside. Thanks for the debate, much appreciated.

But mostly, we need to know the real cost before we can mourn. Until that happens we can’t begin to heal.

Because missmolly and shoeless – who started this line and since abandoned me to it – specifically referenced the bloody newscasts as part of why Vietnam ended.

Why the fixation on “mangled body images”? What I mean is honest reporting from the front. The wailing Iraqis. The protests. The funerals, ours and theirs. The human cost of a brutal civil war precipitated by the acts of U.S. government officials.

None of those stories require gore to upset the squeamish and sensitive. However, they need to be told before our national atonement, and healing, can begin.

But mostly, we need to know the real cost before we can mourn. Until that happens we can’t begin to heal.

As I know you have heard many times; why Saddam when there were many other leaders as bad or worse? Doesn’t that make you stop and think about the rational behind the invasion in the first place?

16 UN Resolutions ignored, no fly zone, history of conflict, heart of the Middle East, enabler if not covert supporter of terrorism, all the same old arguments, lets just not, please.

And what security are we providing them long-term? This is a 3-way (at least) civil and religious war, where there is no ‘right’ side for us. we need to get out and ASAP.

I agree. But the P in ASAP stands for “possible”. Long term, they must provide their own security, and I think they are very close to being able to do so.

And what about all of the 58 bases that BushCo and the NeoCons are trying to get for us? Is that a sign they want to EVER pull out? Don’t you feel a sovereign country should have the right to decide their own fate?

That is some bad stuff, and I am glad Maliki is opposing this “deal”. Since Bush isn’t sending it through Congress, the next President will have complete authority to sh*t can this arrangement.

It is like when you keep hitting your head against the wall, all that happens is that your head still hurts. But if you stop, your head will stop hurting, right?

A bit of a simplification, but I think in general we agree. And none of that even touches the billions being spent, cheapening the dollar, raising the debt. Out, yes. When and how? I look forward to the Presidential debates on who has the best plan.

As I know you have heard many times; why Saddam when there were many other leaders as bad or worse? Doesn’t that make you stop and think about the rational behind the invasion in the first place?

And what security are we providing them long-term? This is a 3-way (at least) civil and religious war, where there is no ‘right’ side for us. we need to get out and ASAP.

And what about all of the 58 bases that BushCo and the NeoCons are trying to get for us? Is that a sign they want to EVER pull out? Don’t you feel a sovereign country should have the right to decide their own fate?

It is like when you keep hitting your head against the wall, all that happens is that your head still hurts. But if you stop, your head will stop hurting, right?

The carnage is part of the story. As are the flag-draped coffins, weeping families and 21 gun salutes. We must honor our fallen in death as in life and they, every single one, deserve to be remembered in their time and place.

I am angry that the government has made access to the coffins and the ceremonies so difficult, so in that sense I agree with you completely. Maybe it is just a matter of where you draw the line. I do not think showing their brutalized remains honors the fallen. If it were me, I wouldn’t want my wife and kids to see it, I’d prefer they remember me as I was, not as a bomb made me.

And if you think the U.S. media isn’t being censored? Check out some foreign sources, or, try to get a major network to run a few seconds of film from al Jazeera or the BBC.

With Al-Jazeera I believe it is cultural. They WANT to show their people their dead so they will get pissed off and go fight infidels. It is pointless to compare the Arab worldview to the Western world view on violence and the appropriate depiction thereof, it is apples and oranges.

As far as the BBC, are they running mangled body images on the telly? I would be surprised by that, but I could be wrong.

And if you think the U.S. media isn’t being censored? Check out some foreign sources, or, try to get a major network to run a few seconds of film from al Jazeera or the BBC.

If so, why?

I supported the initial invasion. I believed the WMD thing, as did many others from many nations and of both parties. I also believed we would do a better job post-Saddam. He was a monster oppressing his people – I thought they’d be glad to be rid of him. It all boils down to raging incompetence in the post military operations phase.

And I do want us out, but not at the cost of seeing all the blood and treasure we’ve spent so far go for naught. I DO think, finally, security is improving and the Iraqi Army is beginning to resemble a secular, professional force dedicated to protecting all its people instead of butchering them.

You were in the Service – how long does it take to train a good platoon leader? 3 years under the best of circumstances? 5 years? We are close to seeing a corp of non-coms that have had that much time under American trainers.

I am an independent. I am leaning toward Obama. Iraq has not turned out how I thought it would, but getting out of there is going to be very, very tricky. And bear in mind, Obama when he began his campaign by opposing the Surge was using March 08 as a withdrawal date – what would be happening there now if we had done that?

Very complicated, and as Gummitch said, very crabby topic.

Keltoi. How can We the People make wise decisions without all the info? Controlling the messages which reach the American people is the work of a dictator. There is no room for it in American society.

I agree in general. But the Administration isn’t controlling the message that reachs the people, the networks are censoring themselves.

I am not sure that a picture of pile of meat and organs that was once a US soldier is “information”. Not a day goes by that the media doesn’t mention over 4000 dead soldiers – if you don’t know what HE does to a human body and are curious, it is extremely easy to find such pictures. But I think people understand modern war is hideous.

I also think you could have a cable channel solely devoted to showing the carnage and no one would tune in to it. It is simply too harsh, or at least it is if you are mentally healthy.

I was glued to the TV in the weeks after 9-11. I did not see one single image of a pulverized body being pulled from the debris; the media censored it. In the “911″ special, when the bodies of people jumping to their deaths impacted the roof where the filming was being done, they didn’t run out and film the pool of crushed flesh. There was one printed picture I saw of a person jumping, and the paper that ran it came under some intense criticism.

When some psycho goes berserk and blows people away in a school, the media censors that, too.

So I guess Pete, I am saying that We the People can make wise decisions on war without looking at the pictures of it live on the TV. And again, if we feel the need to further inform ourselves, it is very easy to do.

Thank you for responding, I do appreciate it.

But what I didn’t ask, was do you think the original invasion and the current occupation is justified?

If so, why?

If not, then why wouldn’t we better off getting the truth to the people and getting out and on with our lives and the lives of our troops?

Were you in Vietnam? Iraq? Afghanistan?

No, I have not served, thank you for your service. Truly.

I was in combat in Vietnam and I also helped stop the war when I came home along with a lot of other very brave Americans. And to ignore the similarities between these two clusterfu(ks i s not being honest with yourself or the American people.

I acknowledged in post 78 the two conflicts share many aspects.

My advice; Plead for more coverage, so the world will know what war is really like. And, even more importantly, to know what a worthless, ego-driven, immoral war and occupation is really like.

I will not argue with one who has seen combat first hand whether it is good that it be shown on TV, though I respectfully disagree with you on whether it it a good idea to do so.