ThinkFast: June 18, 2008
ThinkFast: June 18, 2008
Having “spent several months experimenting with the limits of physical and psychological pressure,” military officers at Guantánamo Bay turned to the CIA in late 2002 “to find ways to get terrorism suspects to talk.” CIA lawyer Jonathan M. Fredman “explained that the definition of illegal torture was ‘written vaguely’” and “subject to perception.” “If the detainee dies, you’re doing it wrong,” Fredman said.
According to documents released by the Senate Armed Services Committee yesterday, the U.S. military “hid the locations of suspected terrorist detainees and concealed harsh treatment to avoid the scrutiny of the International Committee of the Red Cross.”
The Senate ethics committee has begun a preliminary investigation into special treatment afforded to Sens. Chris Dodd (D-CT) and Sen. Kent Conrad (D-ND), who received lower interest rates on their loans from Countrywide Financial. “I don’t know that we did anything wrong. I negotiated a mortgage at a prevailing rate, a competitive rate,” said Dodd.
Some of the nation’s largest banks plan to stop offering student loans to community colleges. In response, Sens. Patty Murray (D-WA) and Chris Dodd (D-CT) have introduced legislation requiring lenders in the federal loan program to “extend credit to any eligible student, regardless of such things as income or the number of years of education, as long as the college is part of the program.”
Yesterday, President Bush signed into law the Heroes Earnings Assistance and Relief Tax Act, which provides tax relief for military families and “shut[s] a loophole that defense contractors had been using to avoid paying millions of dollars in payroll taxes.” The new law will now require these companies “to pay the taxes that finance Social Security and Medicare programs.”
On the trail today: Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) plans to conduct “a seminar on energy and national security this afternoon in the student union at Missouri State University.” Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) will meet with his Senior Working Group on National Security and with nearly 40 retired admirals and generals to discuss the state of the military.
Almost two weeks after conservatives began pushing the false claim that China is drilling off the coast of Cuba, Republican leaders are finally backing away from the story. “We’re not using the China talking point anymore,” Michael Steel, spokesman for House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-OH), told Roll Call.
The Government Accountability Office (GAO) warns that the “government does not have adequate privacy protections for the personal information it collects, shares and stores as part of the effort to fight terrorism.” The GAO report suggests updating the Privacy Act to protect against the government’s “massive, massive data collections.”
“A federal appeals court yesterday ordered a new trial for a former White House aide convicted of obstructing justice and lying.” David Safavian was convicted in 2006 for lying about his connections to criminal lobbyist Jack Abramoff.
“Criminal prosecutions of immigrants by federal authorities surged to a record high in March,” according to a new report by the Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse. The 9,350 new immigration prosecutions “accounted for the majority — 57 percent — of all new federal criminal cases brought nationwide that month.”
A Reuters/Zogby poll found that 58 percent of Americans planned to drive less in response to rising fuel prices, and nearly 39 percent were considering changing or canceling their summer vacations. “About 10 percent said they were pondering moving nearer to work, while roughly the same percentage said they were thinking about finding a job closer to home.”
And finally: Sen. Ted Stevens’s (R-AK) office is decorated with figurines representing his various nicknames, including “a small collection” of green Hulks. Behind his desk he also has a stuffed Tasmanian Devil, a gift from former senator Trent Lott. “He called me ‘Taz,’” Stevens said. “Everybody has a nickname around here. Hollings called me ‘Avalanche’ and I called him ‘Tidewater,’” he said of former senator Ernest Hollings. “We all have strange names for each other.”
What did we miss? Let us know in the comments section.
Democrats To Back Down on Iraq War Conditions
Democrats in the Congress, who came to power last year on a call to end the combat in Iraq, will soon give President George W. Bush the last war-funding bill of his presidency without any of the conditions they sought for withdrawing U.S. troops, congressional aides said on Monday. Lawmakers are arranging to send Bush $165 billion in new money for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, enough to last for about a year and well beyond when Bush leaves office on January 20.
“It’ll be the lump sum of money, veterans (funding) and that’s it,” said one House aide familiar with the negotiations on the legislation. With the Pentagon running out of money to continue fighting the two wars, Congress is trying to approve new funds before its July 4 holiday recess. With this bill, Congress will have written checks for more than $800 billion to fund the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, with most of the money going to Iraq.
The war-spending bill has been the staging ground for a Democratic initiative to expand domestic unemployment benefits, in addition to the added veterans benefits.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/06/17/9701/
The framers of the Constitution, not trusting a president to hold sole powerto commit the nation to war, divided war powers between the executive and legislative branches. Article II names the president commander-in-chief of the armed forces, giving him power to conduct war. Article I gives Congress the power to “raise and support armies” including funding support, and to “declarewar.”
In a Supreme Court Ruling, (the short version) if Congress (legislative branch) does not challenge the President for obtaining a congressional declaration of war and passes funding to support armies they are basically giving their approval to “declare war”(without voting).
Nancy Pelosi & Feinstein should have insisted on conditions of troop withdrawal or not agree to pass any funding at all. We voted them in because of many promises they made to us about ending the war. Not only is this a willful neglect of their duty to us (the citizens that voted for them). It is an act of abandonment to all the troops, with extended tours, that have been fighting this neverending war. Who have suffered the greatest of hardships with extended tours that will leave them not only with physical scars but also emotionally traumatized for many years. Pelosi & Feinstein are co-conspirators in this violation of our Constitution and the Geneva Convention.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:00 amHalliburton Subsidiary Faulted For Hurricane Work
Reports of problems with defense contractor KBR Inc. just keep piling up.The Houston-based company’s efforts to repair Navy facilities following Hurricanes Ivan and Katrina were deemed shoddy and substandard, auditors say, prompting one technical adviser to claim that the federal government “certainly paid twice” for many KBR projects because of “design and workmanship deficiencies,” according to a report released today by the Defense Department’s inspector general.
The report, released following a Freedom of Information Act request, says the U.S. Navy hired KBR, Inc. in July 2004 to repair Defense Department facilities after Hurricanes Ivan and Katrina. The federal government agreed to pay the company $500 million over five years.
As part of the Navy project, KBR was tasked with removing water-damaged carpet and drywall; applying temporary roofing; removing debris; and building trailer parks for displaced Navy families at the Naval air stations in Pensacola, Fla.; Gulfport, Miss.; the Stennis Space Center in Hancock County, Miss.; and other Navy facilities in the Gulf Coast region.
Among the inspector general’s findings:
– KBR awarded sole-source or limited competition subcontracts that overpaid hourly rates to roofers and paid $4.1 million worth of services and meals that should have cost only $1.7 million
– The Navy entered into an illegal “cost-plus-percentage-of-cost” contract with KBR, the audit found. As a result, higher costs meant higher profit and KBR was rewarded for “inefficiency and non-economical performance.”
– KBR was paid nearly all of the contract amounts despite “marginal-to-average performance,” the audit found. The audit recommended the Navy try to recoup about $8.4 million in “excessive” equipment lease payments and material profits and noted several over-the-top costs, including employees getting $540 per month for cell phone charges during roof repairs; $720 per month in gas charges despite existing payment of work site fuel expenses; and expensive meals, including steak and eggs (full meal prices were redacted from the report).
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/ washingtonpostinvestigations/ 2008/ 06/ reports_of_just_keeps_piling.html?hpid=topnews
This lame excuse is KBR’s defense. “KBR officials responded to the mounting criticism, saying they worked in conditions where “surrounding infrastructure and the local labor pool were decimated.”
Why is the MSM ignoring all of this? The government should have stopped this act of plunder along time ago. KBR should have to pay back more than $8.4 m, that is less than 2% of the contract. We have had to pay twice for many of the projects in this contract because KBR is to inept to do it right the first time. These type of contractors should not be awarded any contracts in the future; they have proven that they are incapable of handling the work. There is no accountability as usual under the Bush & Cheney Regime. </
June 18th, 2008 at 9:02 am“We can choose to rise together. But it won’t be easy. Every one of us will have to work at it by studying harder, training more rigorously, working smarter, and thinking anew. We’ll have to slough off bad habits, reform our institutions, and re-engage the world. We can do that, because this is America - a country that has been defined by a determination to believe in, and work for, things unseen.
Every so often, there are times when America must rise to meet a moment. So it has been for the generations that built the railroads and beat back the Depression; that worked on the first assembly line and that went to the moon. So it must be for us today. This is our moment. This is our time to unite in common purpose, to make this century the next American century. Because when Americans come together, there is no destiny too difficult or too distant for us to reach.”
–Barack Obama
Full speech transcript at:
http://baldwinparkdemocrat.blogspot.com/ 2008/ 06/ barack-obama-on-renewing-american.html
June 18th, 2008 at 9:04 amSome of the nation’s largest banks plan to stop offering student loans to community colleges
The CC I teach at part time is already experiencing a decline in enrollments due to the economy and high transportation costs.
This could cripple its ability to continue at the high level of performance it has shown in the past.
The administration will need to shed about a third of its administrative staff, but will probably instead shed a third of its instructors.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:05 amAnd finally: Sen. Ted Stevens’s (R-AK) office is decorated with figurines representing his various nicknames, including “a small collection” of green Hulks. Behind his desk he also has a stuffed Tasmanian Devil, a gift from former senator Trent Lott. “He called me ‘Taz,’” Stevens said. “Everybody has a nickname around here. Hollings called me ‘Avalanche’ and I called him ‘Tidewater,’” he said of former senator Ernest Hollings. “We all have strange names for each other.”
What? He didn’t show them his little statue of a scrotum being injected with anesthesia?
June 18th, 2008 at 9:05 amNew US military contractor overbilling scandal in Iraq looms
A civilian Pentagon official in charge of the largest US military contract in Iraq was removed from his job in 2004 after refusing to pay one billion dollars to KBR Inc. because the company was unable to credibly justify its expenses, the New York Times reported Tuesday. “They had a gigantic amount of costs they couldn’t justify,” the official, Charles Smith, told The New York Times. “Ultimately, the money that was going to KBR was money being taken away from the troops, and I wasn’t going to do that.”
According to Smith, the funds were released to KBR , the main US company in charge of providing food and housing for US forces in Iraq. Democratic Senator Hillary Clinton on Tuesday called for a congressional probe into contracts allocated by the US administration to KBR. “Putting an end to the fraud, waste, and abuse of government contracts in Iraq is long overdue” Clinton said in a statement.
http://afp.google.com/ article/ ALeqM5hIe8f7jX8cvUJB7qc_8NAICAxSxQ
The corporate officials should be under indictment already for fraud. It has been proven time and again this company is selling off supplies that should have gone to the soldiers. They all belong in jail, they are as corrupt as Enron was.
Fired US Attorney: ‘I was working for the Sith Lords’
David Iglesias, who was one of seven United States Attorneys fired by the Department of Justice for political reasons in December 2006, described his experiences to Jon Stewart on Monday’s Daily Show. “They wanted us to file politically oriented prosecutions instead of just doing what our normal job is, which is enforce Federal law,” Iglesias stated, explaining that Justice Department higher-ups asked the US Attorneys “to file voter fraud prosecutions when the evidence wasn’t there beyond a reasonable doubt. It wasn’t just me. It was a guy in Missouri and it was a guy in Seattle, Washington.”
Stewart ended by asking Igleaias, “Is the greatest disappointment for you that you were a guy who believed in what they were doing? … Do you feel betrayed in that sense?”
“I thought I was working with the Jedi Knights and I was working for the Sith Lords,” Iglesias acknowledged, as the audience broke into applause.
http://rawstory.com/ news08/ 2008/ 06/ 17/ fired-us-attorney-i-was-working-for-the-sith-lords/
June 18th, 2008 at 9:07 amAlmost two weeks after conservatives began pushing the false claim that China is drilling off the coast of Cuba, Republican leaders are finally backing away from the story. “We’re not using the China talking point anymore,” Michael Steel, spokesman for House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-OH), told Roll Call.
Someone please tell fistfordaddy on the previous thread!
June 18th, 2008 at 9:07 amSome of the nation’s largest banks plan to stop offering student loans to community colleges. In response, Sens. Patty Murray (D-WA) and Chris Dodd (D-CT) have introduced legislation requiring lenders in the federal loan program to “extend credit to any eligible student, regardless of such things as income or the number of years of education, as long as the college is part of the program.”
And the banks will counter with exorbitant interest rates.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:08 amYesterday, President Bush signed into law the Heroes Earnings Assistance and Relief Tax Act, which provides tax relief for military families and “shut[s] a loophole that defense contractors had been using to avoid paying millions of dollars in payroll taxes.” The new law will now require these companies “to pay the taxes that finance Social Security and Medicare programs.”
What we need is a federal law banning no-bid, cost-plus contracts (that’s our money they’re spending) for corporations headquartered outside the US. Actually, ALL no-bid, cost-plus contracts should be banned, but if you’re going to have them, why have the money go outside the country?
June 18th, 2008 at 9:10 amHaving “…. experimenting with the limits of physical and psychological pressure,”
An apt description of exactly what the BushCo regime has put the American people and the rest of the world through the past 7 1/2 years.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:12 amSen. John McCain (R-AZ) plans to conduct “a seminar on energy and national security this afternoon in the student union at Missouri State University.”
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Lemme guess — “energy” means steal as much of the world’s oil as we can, even if it means bombing Iran, and “national security” means um…bomb Iran.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:13 amRUCerious Says: The CC I teach at part time is already experiencing a decline in enrollments due to the economy and high transportation costs. This could cripple its ability to continue at the high level of performance it has shown in the past.
It’s the same at the technical college where I teach. Most of our students are either black or ’second’chance’ or both. I’m utterly convinced that the neocons want to keep these people oppressed and ignorant so that they can continue to lie to them while milking them for everything they have. Disgusing.
The administration will need to shed about a third of its administrative staff, but will probably instead shed a third of its instructors.
Education is supposed to be ‘recession proof’. Leave it to the Republicans to take away that one perk of an otherwise low-paying and under appreciated job role. I really think they are trying to ruin the education system.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:14 am“Everybody has a nickname around here.”
Yes Ted, we know.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:15 amWe have a lot of nicknames for you and your buddies around here as well….
“We’re not using the China talking point anymore,” Michael Steel, spokesman for House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-OH), told Roll Call.
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OK, that’s one lie down. 933 (or so) more to go…
June 18th, 2008 at 9:16 amBush signed into law the Heroes Earnings Assistance and Tax Act that shuts off a loophole defense contractors had been using to avoid paying millions of dollars in payroll taxes. ______________________________________________________________
Did Bush also issue a ’signing statement’ to that as well?
June 18th, 2008 at 9:17 amShooting of Reuters Journalist in Iraq Justified, Says Pentagon
The 2005 shooting death of a Reuters journalist in the midst of a firefight in Baghdad was justified because U.S. soldiers believed the camera protruding from an unmarked car was a rocket propelled grenade, the Pentagon’s internal watchdog has concluded.
In an 82-page report, the Defense Department’s inspector general also said that Reuters safety practices contributed to the death of sound technician Waleed Khaled, and the wounding of cameraman Haider Kadhem. According to the report, the military unit’s investigating officer did not follow correct procedures — the officer didn’t interview all personnel at the scene, did not get written statements from the shooting team members, and did not fully investigate the scene.
Later, the video of the incident, which was taped by Kadhem, was accidentally lost when the investigating officer mistakenly took it home to Louisiana with him. It was mailed back to Iraq, but never arrived there.
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/ eandp/ news/ article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003817484
Too many things wrong with this one; I’m not buying the Pentagon report. The investigating officer takes the only video of the shoting home by mistake!!! Then it is lost, that is the story they are trying to sell us.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:18 amDoes anyone think that st. mccain knows anything about energy? Perhaps the seminar is to educate him.
nancy pelosi should be thrown out. pelosi is the classic example of a DINO. I hope she loses the primary in her district.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:19 amThe Senate ethics committee has begun a preliminary investigation into special treatment afforded to Sens. Chris Dodd (D-CT) and Sen. Kent Conrad (D-ND), who received lower interest rates on their loans from Countrywide Financial. “I don’t know that we did anything wrong. I negotiated a mortgage at a prevailing rate, a competitive rate,” said Dodd.
I see the repug tactic of selective investigation of dems only is still alive and well, maybe they will dig up Ken Star to lead this media production to a dead end also.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:21 amSome of the nation’s largest banks plan to stop offering student loans to community colleges. In response, Sens. Patty Murray (D-WA) and Chris Dodd (D-CT) have introduced legislation requiring lenders in the federal loan program to “extend credit to any eligible student, regardless of such things as income or the number of years of education, as long as the college is part of the program.”
Of course, it’s unacceptable to the corporate behemoths for anything to be community-based. Community colleges (”democracy colleges”) offer some of the best personal attention and diversity you could find. But unless you’re at a college/university where you’re treated like a number, don’t count on private funding.
The good news is, pell grants are due for an increase. The financial aid dollar usually stretches further at CCs, but I have come across complaints from some students that the application process for is irrationally restrictive. I agree. It’s time to overhaul the FAFSA process to ensure that all aspiring children receive the full aid they deserve. Massachusetts proposed at some point, I believe, to make CCs entirely free.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:24 amchomot Says:The Senate ethics committee has begun a preliminary investigation into special treatment afforded to Sens. Chris Dodd (D-CT) and Sen. Kent Conrad (D-ND), who received lower interest rates on their loans from Countrywide Financial. “I don’t know that we did anything wrong. I negotiated a mortgage at a prevailing rate, a competitive rate,” said Dodd.
I see the repug tactic of selective investigation of dems only is still alive and well, maybe they will dig up Ken Star to lead this media production to a dead end also.
Sen. Conrad has already given over $10,000 to Habitat for Humanity, equaling any discount he got on the loan rate. I agree, chomot, that the ‘investigation’ is Repuke led, will amount to nothing, is a waste of everyone’s time but, the Repukes have a talking point pasted with the media, which was their intent to begin with.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:31 amMcWars Says: Massachusetts proposed at some point, I believe, to make CCs entirely free.
College should be free. It’s in the best interest of our nation to have a highly educated population. Crimes rates drop, health rates rise, and the country stays globally competitive.
After Obama’s speech in Michigan on his educational policy, I believe that his Administration will be taking the first step in that direction, by starting with a $4,000 college credit per student per year.
I would much rather have my tax dollars pay for educating young people than for processing them in the criminal justice system.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:32 amCIA lawyer Jonathan M. Fredman “explained that the definition of illegal torture was ‘written vaguely’” and “subject to perception.” “If the detainee dies, you’re doing it wrong,” Fredman said.
How do these people sleep at night. They must be totally without conscience.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:33 amAccording to documents released by the Senate Armed Services Committee yesterday, the U.S. military “hid the locations of suspected terrorist detainees and concealed harsh treatment to avoid the scrutiny of the International Committee of the Red Cross.”
Bernard Barrett, the ICRC’s Washington spokesman, said, “We knew that we did not always have full access to all detainees. It was a fairly serious issue.” “It’s been addressed,” he said. “We are confident we now have access to all detainees at Guantanamo.”
Yes, Mr. Barrett, but did you have access to the prisoners being held offshore on ships?
Is it a crime to lie to the ICRC like this? International or otherwise? Is there ever going to be any penalty whatsoever for lying as much as this president and his administration does?
June 18th, 2008 at 9:34 amAccording to documents released by the Senate Armed Services Committee yesterday, the U.S. military “hid the locations of suspected terrorist detainees and concealed harsh treatment to avoid the scrutiny of the International Committee of the Red Cross.”
This has got to be against some law somewhere. But, Congress apparently doesn’t care since they won’t impeach Bush for his crimes. This is so frustrating it makes me want to scream.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:34 amUnbelievable, RUCerious
As both of you are teachers, your perspectives are very clear. The educational system is administratively-heavy and not geared much toward teacher advocacy. We all know the goal should be cutting down on admin bureaucracy and renaming posts so they work for the teachers, but you’ll have fat cats who will shift the burden down the organizational chart.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:35 amSen. Kent Conrad is another Congressman receiving large donations from for profit health care company PAC’s with no, as in zero, facilities in his state. Another, Senator Max Baucus, said he might offer his own health care reform package. Whose interest might they look after?
June 18th, 2008 at 9:35 amA Reuters/Zogby poll found that 58 percent of Americans planned to drive less in response to rising fuel prices, and nearly 39 percent were considering changing or canceling their summer vacations. “About 10 percent said they were pondering moving nearer to work, while roughly the same percentage said they were thinking about finding a job closer to home.”
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After decades of building our infrastructure and our culture around the automobile, it won’t be that easy to adapt to not being able to afford to drive one. Here are some of the obstacles:
1. Instead of building public transit systems, we have built more highways.
2. Instead of building public transit systems in newly developing areas, so the development can occur around them, we get the bright idea to build them AFTER sprawl has taken place — ensuring that any system will only be able to serve a small percentage of the people.
3. Instead of building high density areas concentrated near urban cores, we have built suburban sprawl.
4. Instead of building commercial and residential zones together, we have created a gazillion “bedroom communities” located far away from where the jobs are.
5. We have replaced many local family farms with fewer high-output factory farms that ship their output over a wide area, ensuring a great deal of fuel will be used to get product to market.
6. Our auto companies have promoted gas-guzzling SUVs and larger vehicles because they are more profitable than fuel-efficient smaller cars.
These are just a few of the ways that our culture has made it difficult to cut down on our petroleum consumption. In Europe, fuel has always been far more expensive than it is here, but development is more concentrated (resulting in shorter commutes), public transit is more prevalent, cars are smaller and more fuel-efficient, etc., so people have adapted to using less gas.
There are exceptions, of course. Urban planners in many places are eschewing the “bedroom community” concept in order to make sure commercial and industrial zones follow the residential ones. Cul-de-sac subdivisions are giving way to communities with more through roads. There are places in this country with excellent transit systems that are used. Many communities have carpool and vanpool matching services. These are all steps in the right direction.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:35 ambig_ear_monkey Says: In the past year, Gore’s home burned through 213,210 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of electricity, enough to power 232 average American households for a month.
First of all, that’s so last year’s smear.
Secondly, as I’ve explained to you twice already, Al Gore uses renewable, green energy to power his house (solar, wind, etc.) which does not pollute and does not pull from the oil supply.
You can keep repeating a lie, but we can keep debunking it.
Try reading a good non-fiction book instead. It’ll make you feel better.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:37 amTed Stevens: ‘No Where Man’, (as in, bridge to…)
June 18th, 2008 at 9:37 amThe new law will now require these companies “to pay the taxes that finance Social Security and Medicare programs.”
Great. Will the new law require them to pay the back taxes they previously avoided?
June 18th, 2008 at 9:41 amThe tin-foiled ditto-heads have been circulating that myth since 2006
Big ear monkey, has it occured to you that doing renovations requires more power as the contractors plug their equipment into the outlets?
June 18th, 2008 at 9:42 amunbelievable Says
June 18th, 2008 at 9:37 am
Al Gore uses renewable, green energy to power his house (solar, wind, etc.) which does not pollute and does not pull from the oil supply.
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I suspect “big ear monkey” already knows this — he’s just being disruptive. If he REALLY had something of substance to contribute, he wouldn’t provide a link to a wingnut site that uses ITSELF as its source for its “facts”.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:42 amMcWars Says: As both of you are teachers, your perspectives are very clear. The educational system is administratively-heavy and not geared much toward teacher advocacy. We all know the goal should be cutting down on admin bureaucracy and renaming posts so they work for the teachers, but you’ll have fat cats who will shift the burden down the organizational chart.
Exactly! Ultimately, teachers are blamed for everything. When Obama addressed parents in his speech yesterday, I felt a bit of hope. Not only does he get it, but he wants to fix it. And with the teacher attrition rate being what it is, which will only get worse as baby boomers begin to retire, it will have to be fixed. There won’t be enough teachers - even the bad ones - left.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:43 amGood for Bush for signing the loop-hole thingy. A little late but better than never.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:46 ammisshusseinmolly Says: I suspect “big ear monkey” already knows this — he’s just being disruptive. If he REALLY had something of substance to contribute, he wouldn’t provide a link to a wingnut site that uses ITSELF as its source for its “facts”.
I’m sure you’re right. I just think that ignoring people like him is dangerous (even Obama has a ‘fight the smears’ website to counter such nonsense because he rcognizes the damage it did to candidates like Dukakis and Kerry to ignore the lies).
June 18th, 2008 at 9:46 am“We’re not using the China talking point anymore,” Michael Steel, spokesman for House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-OH), told Roll Call.
Oh gee, you decided that since your lie has been exposed that you will look like a bunch of unethical liars if you continue to use them, so you will stop?
June 18th, 2008 at 9:46 amGo stick it in your big ear, monkey.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:48 amUnbelievable,
Proving educational opportunities to people who are already behind bars is shown to reduce recidivism and improve their future outlook. I do read accounts of prisoners who are entirely transformed by earning their AAS, to the point where it’s hard to imagine they were ever offenders. Many conservatives complain, of course, that they’re recieving “special priviledges.” But it bounces off progressives because they believe in an entire society being afforded the same opportunities.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:48 amI will not respond to the racist named poster.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:48 amEven joking, it’s not funny.
The 9,350 new immigration prosecutions “accounted for the majority — 57 percent — of all new federal criminal cases brought nationwide that month.”
Wow, our Justice Department must be so proud, protecting us from all those nasty immigrants. I’m sure those cases must have been so heinous they took precedent over all the other federal crimes that came before them. I mean, you know, we can’t have those people in our country illegally now, can we. No matter that they wouldn’t be here if there wasn’t some neoCON company willing to hire them.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:49 ambig_ear_monkey Says:Al Gore is a fraud and so are you for taking up for the loser!
Post a link to a credible source and we’ll talk. Otherwise, you’re the fraud for posting lies.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:50 amChris Dodd.
It’s possible that Dodd didn’t know he was getting a special rate. And it’s likely that those kinds of perks happen all the time, with or without the knowledge of those they benefit.
But, with the position our leaders are in, it seems they need to proactively ensure that any business agreements they enter are ‘beyond the pail’.
Republicans are as, if not more, complacent in these types of circumstances. It erodes our trust in government.
Not many will agree, but I believe we should substantially raise the salaries of those in the congress and the executive branch.
I believe that it would make those positions more attractive to those that aren’t already rich or well connected. And it might also take away some of the temptations to compromise legislation or policy for financial gain.
If our congressmen and congresswomen and executives where making a million dollars a year, maybe they would be more interested in representing the people well, to keep their more lucrative jobs, and less tempted to jeopardize them with shady financial deals.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:51 amHalliburton Subsidiary Faulted For Hurricane Work
If I owned stock in Halliburton I would be dumping it about now. I’m fairly sure that this company is going to be in a world of hurt once Obama takes office. I hope he goes after them and prosecutes them for all our taxpayer money they have stolen and misappropriated.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:52 amMcWars Says: Proving educational opportunities to people who are already behind bars is shown to reduce recidivism and improve their future outlook. I do read accounts of prisoners who are entirely transformed by earning their AAS, to the point where it’s hard to imagine they were ever offenders. Many conservatives complain, of course, that they’re recieving “special priviledges.” But it bounces off progressives because they believe in an entire society being afforded the same opportunities.
Isn’t that great? I saw that 60 Minutes story and thought it was utterly amazing how different the educated prisoners were versus the people they used to be who’d committed terrible crimes. They were articulate and logical and calm. Definitely hard to believe they’d committed those crimes.
Punishment does not work. But, clearly education does. It’s why we don’t hear of countries like France, where college is free, attacking other countries.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:54 am#Wayne A. Schneider Says:
What we need is a federal law banning no-bid, cost-plus contracts (that’s our money they’re spending) for corporations headquartered outside the US. Actually, ALL no-bid, cost-plus contracts should be banned, but if you’re going to have them, why have the money go outside the country?
Remember when Kerry was accused of being against the war before he was for it. That was because he voted against the first funding bill. He did it because he supported a competing bill that contained language making it so that no company outside the US could have contracts in Iraq. Obviously that bill didn’t pass.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:56 amAl Gore is a fraud and so are you for taking up for the loser? BeM
Did you calculate how much energy the contractors used when they installed these renovations? Where do you think they plug in all their equipment, the next door neighbors home?
June 18th, 2008 at 9:58 ambig ear monkey: as gone down sense
This is the only place you find sense in this troll’s post…and it’s still wrong!
June 18th, 2008 at 9:59 ambig_ear_monkey Says: Prove me wrong that Al Gore’s energy consumption as gone down sense his comment to “going green” .
The onus of proof is upon the one making the claim, not on the person challenging it. You have to prove your case. You can do that with credible sources. But, you won’t be able to, because none exist.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:59 amWill Repukes drop the ‘Obama baby Momma’ insulting talking point, as well?
-Terrorist fist pumps? (All pro athletes are terrorists?)
-Electing Progressives is treasonous?
-Michelle Obama said ‘Whitey’?
-Secret Madrassa?
-KBR / Halliburton are ‘protecting’ us?
-Bush is a diplomat?
-Telecoms are ‘protecting’ us?
I know, I know, this is their game. Slander, slurs & outright lies are their MO.
When you lie for a living, when do you tell the truth?
June 18th, 2008 at 10:00 amZimzone Says:
I see the repug tactic of selective investigation of dems only is still alive and well, maybe they will dig up Ken Star to lead this media production to a dead end also.
I’m wondering how this came about. I can’t believe these two are the only two people in Congress who have a better than average loan rate. Did Countrywide go through their loans looking for the names of Democratic legislators they could squeal on?
June 18th, 2008 at 10:01 amFor those who haven’t seen it yet, an amazing panoramic view of Obama’s Detroit rally, courtesy of the Detroit Free Press:
(fair warning, pretty much requires high bandwidth)
http://www.freep.com/ apps/ pbcs.dll/ article?AID=/ 20080617/ MULTI/ 80617040
June 18th, 2008 at 10:02 amIt is curious that right wingers flaunt and celebrate the supposed contradictions of Vice President, Al Gore’s energy use. And, they declaim about freedom and democracy, but never notice the violations of the US Constitution by those sworn to uphold it.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:02 amAl Gore isn’t a fraud. But, he probably exaggerates the threat of global warming because he believes it will help the environment.
I also believe that he is as guilty as any other politician of cherry picking data to support his claims.
But, I believe that he is honestly concerned about the environment. He plays an essential role, because the environment needs champions.
I think most believe that Al Gore does have a more significant carbon footprint than the average person. The multiple large homes and jet travel, fuel that perception.
You could argue that those resources are necessary for him to spread his environmental message. But, you can also easily argue that he would be more credible, if he could forgo the jet trips and sell the large houses.
Without that, it’s hard not to see it as a ‘do as I say, not as I do’ message.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:05 amLittle Freep Goofballs Says:
For those who haven’t seen it yet, an amazing panoramic view of Obama’s Detroit rally, courtesy of the Detroit Free Press:
Wow! Thanks for the link.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:08 ambackup Says:
Al Gore isn’t a fraud. But, he probably exaggerates the threat of global warming because he believes it will help the environment.
I also believe that he is as guilty as any other politician of cherry picking data to support his claims.
So you are saying that all those thousands of scientists who agree with Gore are exaggerating the threat and are guilty of cherry picking data to support their claims?
No, it’s people like you right wing tools who cherry pick data to try to disprove Global Climate Change.
Are you willing to bet the lives of your grandchildren and great grandchildren that Global Climate Change is a myth? I’m not.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:09 amJune 18th, 2008 at 10:10 am
2 things in regard to Gore…
1. He pays his own bills, not the taxpayers
2. We just paid for Bush’s ‘farewell tour’ of Europe, even though he wasn’t invited…3 jets, secret service, staff, etc.
PS: That Bush trip cost us more in a week than Al Gores spends on his house in a year…any questions?
June 18th, 2008 at 10:10 amRush lives in a $24 million, 36,500-square-foot oceanfront mansion in Palm Beach, Florida.
I am willing to bet Limbaughs electricity bill is higher than Gores.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:14 ambig ear monkey says:
“Al Gore is a fraud and so are you for taking up for the loser!”
George Bush is a lying traitor and so are you for taking up (sic) for the mentally deficient sh1thead!
June 18th, 2008 at 10:15 amAl Gore is a fraud and so are you for taking up for the loser!
LOL
George Bush is a fraud and so are you for taking up for the loser!
Prove me wrong that Bush’s presidency has done any good for the majority of America’s citizens and America’s place in the world.
Go ahead and sink with the ship, you deserve to drown.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:15 amSo, Big ear Bonobo, Gores home is about 10,000 square feet, whereas hypocrite Rush Limbaughs is more than three times as large at 36,000 square feet.
Now, who do you think uses more electricity?
I know you can answer this one without even using a calculator.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:19 amEconomic stimulus package -BeM
If the economy is so great,why the need for a stimulus package?
June 18th, 2008 at 10:20 amReal good that I was having a conversation with an esteemed poster about American education, when a persistent jackass from the neocon’s Camp Anawanna has to squat on the threads?
Could some at the TP structure finally shove some real cold ice cream down its pants?
June 18th, 2008 at 10:22 amAll the troll post’s are makeing me tired….I have one to fire back at ya reich winger’s…How much power do you use.?…..I’ll show you mine first…Last month I used 43 KH….My little resort of camper’s totaled 426KH…..Amount of water usage per day 15 gallon’s during the spring and summer and 10 during the winter for me…Amount of gasoline used per month 20 gallon’s….Now I know working people have to use more gas to get to their job’s but how about conserving power and water….If your going to compare Gore’s usage then stack him up against mcnutty with 8 home’s and all his air time thank’s to his little wife…Give us a break and FO untill you can compare apples to apples….Blessings
June 18th, 2008 at 10:22 amBackup says:
Without that, it’s hard not to see it as a ‘do as I say, not as I do’ message.
LOL. The 20 percenters are full of laughs today. ‘Do as I say, not as I do’ LOL Is that like ‘We can have nukes, but you can’t', or ‘We can torture, but you can’t', or ‘We can take your oil, but you can’t take ours’ or ‘We are patriotic, but you are not’.
Yeah backup, Al Gore is the problem that the US government should be concerned about. STFU
June 18th, 2008 at 10:22 am#67, rogerse conveniently forgot to mention the 51 dead people from the bombing in Baghdad this morning.
rogerse?
June 18th, 2008 at 10:23 amRogers, didnt a bomb just go off in Baghdad that killed 51 people?
And if the security gains are what you say, why the need for SOF agreement? Shouldnt we be standing down as they stand up?
June 18th, 2008 at 10:24 amEconomic stimulus package.
BWWWWWAAAAAAAA
Weak man, very weak. “First I’ll rape them, then I’ll give them their shorts back.” Try again.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:24 ambackup Says:
I think most believe that Al Gore does have a more significant carbon footprint than the average person. The multiple large homes and jet travel, fuel that perception.
You could argue that those resources are necessary for him to spread his environmental message. But, you can also easily argue that he would be more credible, if he could forgo the jet trips and sell the large houses.
It’s not just his “house”, but it’s the office of a very active ex-VP, housing security details and all the equipment and staff necessary for the work he’s doing — while utilizing green energy sources. His “large houses” actually demonstrate a commitment to renewable energy, although the Wingnuts like to pretend otherwise.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:26 amXisithrus:
June 18th, 2008 at 10:26 amPlease show some respect for our bonobo kin. This other fellow is just a clown in need of attention
Well, if your reasonable, my friend, you would agree that Climate Change proponents probably don’t site studies or statistics that don’t back up their claims.
And opponents offer only studies or information that dismiss the idea of man made warming, but disregard the information that points to it.
It happens on both sides of the argument. It’s cherry picking to advance the particular arguments.
And you should recognize your reference to our children and grandchildren as an attempt to use fear as a substitute for reason. If you resent Bush for using the fear of terrorism to justify his arguments, you probably shouldn’t use the fear of global catastrophe to advance yours.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:29 amOooh, yes, Roger2. Things are going great in Iraq. So peaceful you can hear a bomb explode.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:29 amGood morning, gummitch
As usual, we’ve got some annoying sock puppets coming out of their closet today.
Al Gore gave a great speech endorsing Obama this week. Welcome back, Al!
June 18th, 2008 at 10:29 am#75 Yah, huh..limpdick is preaching riot’s in Denver instead..Just go away and take the warmonger’s you pramote with ya..
June 18th, 2008 at 10:31 amrogerse Says:
Xisithrus Says:
sorry, 51 still just makes little difference to all the numbers.
How about 63? Is that big enough for you, or doesn’t it matter because they were only Iraqis?
The point, doofus, is that it was “the deadliest bombing in the Iraqi capital for three months.”
June 18th, 2008 at 10:32 amRush Limbaugh is not advocating a new life style because the world in coming to an end if you don’t. -BeM
Thats your argument? Global warming aside, do you think the supply of oil is infinite? Why does a man need a 36,000 square foot home? How is that conservative? Isnt he a conservative? Seems to me he is anti-conservative yet claims a conservative lifestyle. Rush is as open to criticism as Gore is no matter what your opinion is.
So there, nanna nanna boo boo. Or as Limbaugh, goofily says, dadelut dadelut dadelut.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:32 amrogerse Says:
sorry, 51 still just makes little difference to all the numbers.
Hey, shitforbrains, those are people, not numbers. Take your statistics and shove them where the sun don’t shine.
What a phucking moron…
June 18th, 2008 at 10:32 amsorry, 51 still just makes little difference to all the numbers. -=RrOoGgEeRr=-
Riiiight, and the other day your thought 23 billion was nothing as well.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:34 amgummitch. you’re cheerleading for Gore. I get it.
Gores a good guy with an important message.
All I’m trying to say, is that there is a perception that Al Gore has a much larger carbon footprint than the average person, although he preaches lower carbon footprints for all of us.
It’s not a very partisan statement. If Gore can sucessfully refute that he has a lower carbon footprint than those that he’s trying to persuade; he will be more credible.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:34 amracist sh1thead says:
“So you think the war and Bush are the only reason our economy is in a minor slowdown?”
No, I think six years of Republican rule in both the House and Senate, coupled with Cheney’s secret energy commission’s decisions have also contributed heavily to our substantial economic slowdown. Although you make a few strong points there. Borrowing a trillion effing dollars from China and having an incompetent dishonest loser as our President hasn’t helped us either.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:34 amSo you think the war and Bush are the only reason our economy is in a minor slowdown?
First off, it’s only a minor slowdown if you are rich. Secondly, YES BUSH IS RESPONSIBLE. Please remove your blinders.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:35 ambackup Says:
gummitch. you’re cheerleading for Gore. I get it.
“Cheerleading”? Ah, that must be because I disagreed with you. You need to characterize my comments that way to diminish the truth. How about responding to the facts about his office, the security required for an ex-VP, and all the other available information about the measures taken at the office/home for renewable energy? No?
He’s already refuted all the hogwash about his carbon footprint, but as usual, you can be bothered to absorb that information and learn from it.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:37 amrogerse Says:
gummitch Says:
you obviously didn’t read the post or you’d know how much 63 meant to the overall statistics.read before posting dofus.
“Deadliest attack in three months” just continues to elude you, doesn’t it? Everything is ducky in Baghdad, at least according to your linked article.
And there are two “o’s” in doofus, fool.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:39 amWhat backup refuses to admit to himself is the fact that nearly every one of the studies that go against the idea of human influenced climate change have been funded solely by oil companies while the scientific studies that support the premise were idependently performed. Now if the oil companies fund the research, just what conclusions might we expect from their studies, hmmm?
June 18th, 2008 at 10:39 amSo where is your savior Obama going to get his economic stimulus plan money? Because I’m sure you know, he’s heavily in favor of another govt had out. -BeM
The stimulus wasnt a hand out, it was basically a advance on your tax return.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:46 ambackup Says:
It’s not a very partisan statement. If Gore can sucessfully refute that he has a lower carbon footprint than those that he’s trying to persuade; he will be more credible.
Take a little time and research Jerry Brown, who was the governor of California in the 70s. Long before other people were talking about sustainability, he refused to live in the governor’s mansion and had a small apartment. He also refused to ride in a limo. He walked the walk entirely and what happened? He was dismissed as a “moonbat.”
The people regularly attacking Gore don’t care about the truth, and they certainly don’t care about whether or not Gore really has reduced his carbon footprint. They’d just find some other way to mock him solely because they don’t want to hear what he has to say.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:47 amIs Mitch McConnell’s nickname “Homo Erectus”?
June 18th, 2008 at 10:47 amIf by independently performed you mean funded by the government, I’m not buying they’re all that independent.
There are people in the government, and scientists, that have motivations that are similar, but opposite, to the oil companies.
I’m although I believe some studies that refute climate change are dubiously funded by oil companies, I have a difficult time believing that all or most have been funded by oil companies. I would consider any link that backs your premise.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:50 amThis obviously doesn’t make sense. How about ‘There are those in government, and scientists, that have financial interests in promoting climate change, just as oil companies have a financial interest in dismissing it.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:53 amYou doing like the two parties and making this a black and white issue with regards to energy. I don’t know about you but I would rather by my crude oil from an American drilling company. And because there is no magical stitch to flip, and turn off our dependence on oil over night we have to buy some time. And producing our own crude oil would be a hell of a lot better option than begging foreign fascist governments for it. -BeM
Well, only about 17% of our oil comes from OPEC, the rest [mainly] comes from America, Canada and Mexico. Yes,I agree, there is no switch we can magically flip.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:56 amGood to see that rogerse(rogerdo) feels the need to celebrate the deaths of “only” 19 US soldiers, as well as “only” 51 Iraqi civilians, many of whom were women and children!
Mucking Foron!
Such bravery from being out of range, eh rogerse(rogerdo)?
June 18th, 2008 at 10:57 amhttp://www.physorg.com/news130693228.html
There’s probably more money in carbon credits than there is in oil.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:58 amThe Thought Police are at it again:
Arizona Bill Proposes to Prohibit Teachings Critical of Western Civilization
June 18th, 2008 at 11:05 amGive em a day or two and they’ll all be screaming that we need to mine more coal or our ridiculously spoiled lazy ass life style will be at risk. Me I think I will just continue to be a more thoughtful user of energy resources.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:07 amInteresting article there, toasterhead.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:12 amSo no funding to schools that teach how the settlers treated the Native Americans? How about slaves? Segregation? Women?
I am as proud a citizen of the USA as anyone, but we have not had a perfect history. And choosing to ignore the past, actually being coerced to ignore it, is treading on very dangerous grounds.
backup Says:
And you should recognize your reference to our children and grandchildren as an attempt to use fear as a substitute for reason. If you resent Bush for using the fear of terrorism to justify his arguments, you probably shouldn’t use the fear of global catastrophe to advance yours.
Bush’s fear tactics are all based on lies. The FACT that if we don’t do something about Global Climate Change NOW we may not have a future is based on the truth. Even if I thought that there was a 50/50 chance that we are not responsible for the changes in our climate, I would still want to do something about it because if the scientists are right, we will all die.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:13 amHaving “spent several months experimenting with the limits of physical and psychological pressure,” military officers at Guantánamo Bay turned to the CIA in late 2002 “to find ways to get terrorism suspects to talk.” CIA lawyer Jonathan M. Fredman “explained that the definition of illegal torture was ‘written vaguely’” and “subject to perception.” “If the detainee dies, you’re doing it wrong,” Fredman said.
No problem. As long as we continue as the world’s bully and as long as we treat people inhumanely, there will be plenty more detainees to practice on.
http://progressiveworldreview.com
June 18th, 2008 at 11:14 amtoasterhead, I don’t support limiting free speech, but to play devils advocate the ‘Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan or Mecha’ advocates the overthrow and return of the Southwestern U.S. to Mexico.
I think the proponents may be less thought police and more self preservationists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEChA
June 18th, 2008 at 11:14 ambackup Says:
toasterhead, I don’t support limiting free speech, but to play devils advocate the ‘Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan or Mecha’ advocates the overthrow and return of the Southwestern U.S. to Mexico.
I think the proponents may be less thought police and more self preservationists.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:14 am
_______
Funny thing about “self-preservationism” - it’s so very close to “McCarthyism.”
June 18th, 2008 at 11:19 amburned at the stake
Not surprising coming from a person that links to a racist poster. Your flagged.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:21 am“What a sad country we live in when politicians throw some of our finest men under the bus to score some political points.”
Ala Jessica Lynch/Pat Tillman? What say ye newest version of little white guy scared of the black guy?
June 18th, 2008 at 11:22 amReport: Exams prove abuse, torture in Iraq, Gitmo
By PAMELA HESS, Associated Press
WASHINGTON - Medical examinations of former terrorism suspects held by the U.S. military at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, found evidence of torture and other abuse that resulted in serious injuries and mental disorders, according to a human rights group.
For the most extensive medical study of former U.S. detainees published so far, Physicians for Human Rights had doctors and mental health professionals examine 11 former prisoners. The group alleges finding evidence of U.S. torture and war crimes and accuses U.S. military health professionals of allowing the abuse of detainees, denying them medical care and providing confidential medical information to interrogators that they then exploited.
“Some of these men really are, several years later, very severely scarred,” said Barry Rosenfeld, a psychology professor at Fordham University who conducted psychological tests on six of the 11 detainees covered by the study. “It’s a testimony to how bad those conditions were and how personal the abuse was.
So, tell us how this is NOT Bush’s fault, trolls.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:23 amBut, Bilbo.
What many don’t seem to recognize is that there is a downside if the scientists are wrong.
Many discount what value a strong economy has. If affords us the ability to feed and cloth ourselves and nuture our families. And I suggest that a weaker economy hurts those on the lower economic rungs even more significantly.
If we place trade and cap restrictions on our corporations, it will increase their costs that will be pasted on to the rest of us.
If we place trade and cap restrictions on western companies and exempt China and India and others, we are not only driving our prices up, but we would be exporting even more business and jobs to China and India.
We should heed the scientists, but with an open mind. There is the jeopardy for cataclysmic climate change if they are right, but if that is the case, there is the potential for an economic cataclysm if they’re wrong.
With many things, I think the answer lay in a considerate balance. Doing right by the environment is the right thing to do.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:26 amWow! Again, I’m not a huge fan of the “Report Abuse” flag, but when a poster so blatantly uses a racist link, and then spouts off vile $hit, with nothing to offer, well, flag away!
Thanks TP.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:28 amIf by independently performed you mean funded by the government, I’m not buying they’re all that independent.
There are people in the government, and scientists, that have motivations that are similar, but opposite, to the oil companies.
I’m although I believe some studies that refute climate change are dubiously funded by oil companies, I have a difficult time believing that all or most have been funded by oil companies. I would consider any link that backs your premise.
Another day, another discredited conservative desperately seeks relevance.
Who cares what a toady thinks? Your party had how many years to address this problem? Why isn’t it already fixed? It’s hilarious to watch you post; as if your opinions carry any weight after being proven wrong, again,and again, and again. An honest intellect would feel shame - but then again, no-one’s ever seen a conservative with one of those, so that species seems to be extinct.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:28 amMy bad: I intended to add: But, without sacrificing the economy, that is also very important to human prosperity.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:29 amIt’s definitely a problem. I’m not supporting it. I’m offering a motivation.
If there was an organization that advocated an overthrow of your constituents, you might want to stop them, too.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:34 amWow! Again, I’m not a huge fan of the “Report Abuse” flag, but when a poster so blatantly uses a racist link, and then spouts off vile $hit, with nothing to offer, well, flag away!
Thanks TP.
LOL I just made the entry and poof big_arse was deleted. I suspect TP was in the process of deleting while I was posting but it sure felt like I was responsible.
Thanks TP
June 18th, 2008 at 11:34 amDo you realize that oil we get by drilling in Alaska currently (since 1994) goes on the world market–NOT to America?
June 18th, 2008 at 11:39 ambackupWe should heed the scientists, but with an open mind. There is the jeopardy for cataclysmic climate change if they are right, but if that is the case, there is the potential for an economic cataclysm if they’re wrong.
A true recipe for total inaction.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:39 ambarfly. if i’m discredited and irrelevant, you better tell these people from yesterday:
backup Says:
——————————————————————————–
June 17th, 2008 at 1:50 pm Recommend (8) | Report Abuse
The comment was omitted for space, but it’s there and I’ll post it for you at your request.
When you’re ready to have an honest, objective discussion without the partisanship, I’ll be here.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:40 amBACKUP, I’d just like to point out, that if global climate change causes an environment that is uninhabitable for our next generations, what about their economies?
June 18th, 2008 at 11:40 amThis argument could have been use against those that wanted more time in the run up to war.
Environmental gains are being made without heavy handed regulation that may be counterproductive.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:42 ambackup Says:
If we place trade and cap restrictions on western companies and exempt China and India and others, we are not only driving our prices up, but we would be exporting even more business and jobs to China and India.
We should heed the scientists, but with an open mind. There is the jeopardy for cataclysmic climate change if they are right, but if that is the case, there is the potential for an economic cataclysm if they’re wrong.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:26 am
______
Any climate change policy has to be global. China, India, Brazil, Indonesia - everyone has to be involved, otherwise the current polluters will just export pollution to the developing countries. World trade/environmental bodies such as the WTO and Kyoto need to be harmonized so that developing countries must provide the same environmental and worker protections as OECD countries.
However, I really don’t see where this economic cataclysm will occur. Distributing the power grid with investments in renewable energy will create jobs. Refocusing the food and manufacturing industries to smaller, localized distribution models will create jobs. Stopping the world’s overreliance on fossil fuels will reduce corruption, conflict, and Dutch Disease in countries like Sudan and Nigeria.
Any way you look at it, listening to the scientists will produce far more economic winners than losers.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:44 amgummitch. you make a good ‘moonbat’ argument.
And I’m not disagreeing with this:
But, there are people on the fence of most issues. They probably care about the truth. And they probably would find Gore more credible if his footprint were smaller than theirs.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:47 ambackup Says:
They probably care about the truth. And they probably would find Gore more credible if his footprint were smaller than theirs.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:47 am
_______
How does Al Gore’s personal life in any way alter the reams of scientific findings supporting the theory of anthropoegenic climate change?
June 18th, 2008 at 11:51 amtoasterhead. you make sense here. If I felt confident that those proposing regulation intended it to be universal, I would be much more on board. Many people lament the jobs going to India and the money going to China. Without the universal application of climate change regulation, I believe that trend would only accelerate.
It’s also possible you are right about the increase in economic opportunity. I hope so.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:51 amIt doesn’t. It only takes one more objective away from climate change ideology opponents. And makes Gore seem more credible and genuine about his cause.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:53 ambackup, the only people who care about Gore’s footprint are those who seek to use it to discredit him and, by extension, his message.
No reasonable person really expects Gore to live in a yurt and power his home with a watermill.
We as a society are always going to need energy, and that need is going to grow.
We need to move toward sustainable sources of energy. If Al Gore, or any leader, can show us how to live conscientiously using green power instead of carbon-fueled power, that is credibility.
Those who focus on how much energy Gore’s life and work consume without considering the source of that energy, are just seeking to score cheap points for a misguided cause through misdirection.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:57 amralph the wonder llama Says:
No reasonable person really expects Gore to live in a yurt and power his home with a watermill.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:57 am
_______
Too bad - yurts are unbelievably comfortable.
June 18th, 2008 at 12:03 pmralph. I disagree. Honestly, does Gore need more than one home?
And imagine if, instead of going to Europe to personally accept the Nobel prize (and leaving his critics to point to his jet trip), Gore accepted via satellite.
Leading by example matters. I know you feel it is a small point, but I think it’s important.
People are watching and possibly less understanding of progressive leadership than many here.
Gore is doing a great service to the environment. But, none of us is perfect. I’m only suggesting that Gore could be more effective, if he sold the additional homes and limited the personal jet travel.
By reducing his carbon footprint to below average (and taking that objection away from deniers), Gores message becomes more credible.
June 18th, 2008 at 12:05 pmwhat’s a yurt?
June 18th, 2008 at 12:06 pmhussein toasterhead Says:
Too bad - yurts are unbelievably comfortable.
—–
June 18th, 2008 at 12:07 pmI have heard this. This really attractive single woman I know lives in one. Despite my efforts to confirm your statement, it remains unconfirmed if you know what I mean
she probably likes you, but doesn’t want you to ex-yurt yourself.
June 18th, 2008 at 12:11 pmInteresting how the right wing was in such a rush to go to war on unproven and widely disputed charges, yet when the livability of our planet may be threatened, they want to make sure they get all the eyes dotted and all the tees crossed.
When I’m faced with a circumstance like this, my first step is to look for common factors that could make such an apparent contradiction sensical.
Let’s see… “naturally cautious” is out, because there was no caution in the rush to war…
“naturally impulsive” is out, because they’re so hesitant to accept less than “complete” science…
Could be an attraction to “macho glamor”, since war has that a plenty and science, not so much…
Or it could be that war is very profitable for the military-industrial complex, and business-as-usual is very profitable for the extraction industries… and since the two forces are closely aligned, and heavily right-wing…
hmmm… I hesitate to say it, but I think I may have found an explanation.
June 18th, 2008 at 12:12 pmBackup, you make truly idiotic arguments that have nothing whatsoever to do with anything pertinent, but are instead ridiculous strawmen.
Your argument in essence is this:
Only poor people can speak for the poor, and anyone who is not poor has no credibility at all to speak for the poor.
Absurdity piled upon absurdity.
Al Gore can’t advocate green living and protection of the environment because he has two houses and travels extensively?
And you expect us to take you seriously? HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!
June 18th, 2008 at 12:16 pmralph. conservatives have traditionally focus on the economy, while progressive have championed the environment.
(climate change)
conservatives have focused on the military to ensure defense, and progressives seem to favor diplomacy.
(war in Iraq)
I think the various sides of the issue, probably emanate from that heritage.
That being said, the argument I was trying to make, is that we shouldn’t be using alarmism (like conservatives did in the run up to war) as an excuse to do away with thorough consideration on climate change policy.
There is a downside to climate change regulation. Let’s take time to contemplate the ramifications while we continue to modify our lifestyles for the betterment of the planet.
June 18th, 2008 at 12:22 pmbackup, sometimes you approach reasonable.
This is not one of those times.
You completely ignored my point about sustainable energy sources — this is obvious, because you claim I feel “leading by example ” is “a small point”. Who could read this:
If Al Gore, or any leader, can show us how to live conscientiously using green power instead of carbon-fueled power, that is credibility.
and think I am dismissing leadership as a “small point”?
You think he should lead by doing less. I think he should lead by doing what he’s doing, sustainably. Which is exactly what he is doing.
You criticize Gore for flying to Stockholm to accept the Nobel Prize? That is absurd and so, so petty that it makes you look ridiculous.
First of all, we’ve seen that a leader who supports the kind of austerity that you suggest often finds it a tough sell with the American people. Remember Jimmy Carter’s sweater? How much further down this road would we be if the nation had bought that package? But we didn’t. Instead we elected Reagan, who insisted that it was “morning in America”, despite all evidence to the contrary, and who then dismantled the alternative energy infrastructure that Carter h