McClellan: Don’t Pardon Scooter Libby
McClellan: Don’t Pardon Scooter Libby
Last year, President Bush infamously commuted the prison sentence of former Vice President Cheney aide Scooter Libby, who was convicted in the CIA leak scandal. “As to the future, I rule nothing in and nothing out,” Bush said afterwards, referring to a future pardon. Testifying before Congress today, Scott McClellan said Bush should not pardon Libby:
Mr. Chairman, I believe that it would signal a special treatment, the same thing that happened with the commutation. And the President has always held a certain standard for a granting pardons, even going back to when he was governor, and I worked for him then. And that is, that the person must first repay his debt to his society, and second, must express remorse for the crimes which he committed. And we have seen neither of that from Scooter Libby at this point.
Watch it:
Earlier this month, McClellan said Bush should have fired Karl Rove for his involvement in exposing an undercover CIA agent. “He said we were going to set the highest of standards, we didn’t live up to that,” said McClellan.
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According to Lamar Smith (R-TX) Scott sold out the president and his men for a “few pieces of silver”.
So, Scott = Judas, and Bush = Jesus?
What a ridiculous statement!
PEACE
June 20th, 2008 at 10:43 amIt’s a pity I’m not in a place where I can see McClellan’s testimony, but I hope I can get the highlights later.
Has Scott implicated anyone besides Libby in the Valerie Plame matter?
June 20th, 2008 at 10:51 amWhen everything a person says is a lie, there’s nothing to live up to.
June 20th, 2008 at 10:53 am“McClellan said Bush should have fired Karl Rove”
Should have, should have, should have, should have…
He didn’t. If it happened again, he still wouldn’t.
June 20th, 2008 at 10:56 amRight out of the box Lamar Smith went on a personal attack with his “book of the month” – next we will call on “Ann Coulter for her book on how to talk to a liberal if you must”
June 20th, 2008 at 10:57 amMcClellan was subsequently accused of being Judas, profiteering from his role in the White House (wow! no one has ever done that before); and did he even write this book or did his partisan publisher do it.
They’re on break now and I have to go to work – I will miss a lot, but it should be interesting for those who can view CSpan3.
It is funny to me that the pundits say he was truthful before and now he’s a liar. If he is a liar now, why would that make him believable before. Circular logic.
June 20th, 2008 at 10:59 amSeems Scotty is really serious about his atonement. Has to be tough to throw all your friends under the bus like that. Glad to see he finally grew enough of a conscious to do it. He may redeem himself yet.
Hang in there Scotty!
June 20th, 2008 at 11:01 amI wonder how many more Repug tantrums are planned to try to derail and defocus this hearing?
June 20th, 2008 at 11:04 amUnbelievable, I suspect many more will feel the need to enter sainthood in the coming months or years, something I’ve been predicting. Even if it is a little late.
June 20th, 2008 at 11:07 amsorry- off thread. but worth noting regarding the parental paid leave act that Bush is threatening to veto.
And the White House threatened to veto the bill, calling it a “costly, unnecessary, new paid leave entitlement.”
Bush HATES American families.
Bush Loves Bin Laden’s family-
hence the September 12th airlift of all Osama’s relatives out of the U.S..
Hence his decision to pull our troops out of Tora Bora and rely on the local “friendly” tribes to get him.
Hence his acceptance of Bin Laden family money to help fund his first Oil Company, Arbusto. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbusto
Bush HATES Americans, POOR AMERICANS.
June 20th, 2008 at 11:08 ammisshusseinmolly
There is a link to web coverage at C-SPAN
http://www.c-span.org/
June 20th, 2008 at 11:09 amrepublican talking point goes here___________>
(where’s rogerse with the talking point?)
:)
June 20th, 2008 at 11:10 amI find it hilarious that any Repug is bashing Scotty for lying when he is testifying UNDER OATH. Something none of the rest of BushCo will do.
I think that is all the public really needs to know.
June 20th, 2008 at 11:11 amupsidee99, I think when they finally come back from recess that we will see a lot more of repug nonsense.
June 20th, 2008 at 11:13 amTestifying before Congress today, Scott McClellan said Bush should not pardon Libby:
DEFINITELY pardon Mark Rich, though…
June 20th, 2008 at 11:14 amInteresting to hear Scott now that the veils have been lifted from his eyes. The man’s got religion. Say hallelujah, brother.
Did you notice that his critics always attack the messenger but not the message?
June 20th, 2008 at 11:15 amThis must be ripping our favorite trolls up one side and down the other, having to see the lid come off the BushCo sewage pit.
Heh heh.
June 20th, 2008 at 11:16 amthe Lone Voice of Reason Says: Unbelievable, I suspect many more will feel the need to enter sainthood in the coming months or years, something I’ve been predicting. Even if it is a little late.
Still, better late than never in this case, I think. Partly to validate the judgment of all the arguments against the Bush Regime. In fact, as more facts come to light, I’ve noticed a significant lack of even moderate Republicans posting here. Just brain-dead trolls who do not think.
June 20th, 2008 at 11:16 amWhy Keltoi? Did Mark Rich out an undercover CIA agent too?
June 20th, 2008 at 11:18 amI seem to have missed the part where whatever Mark Rich did endangered our country’s security by outing a CIA operative, an act that borders on treason.
June 20th, 2008 at 11:20 amrogerse Says:
Gee, is he expecting special treatment?.is he willing to be prosecuted, or just those he finger points?.I suppose the finger pointing is supposed to suggest a pardon…
and his book was already written at a much less convenient time from the same perspective, so his capitalism hasn’t even helped anyone.
HELP! Translation please! Anyone? Helllooo!!
June 20th, 2008 at 11:21 amKeltoi, surely you’ve got mroe than Clinton did it? Did Clinton take part in outing a CIA operative that was focusing on Iran’s nuclear program?
June 20th, 2008 at 11:22 amC’mon, you’re better than that.
Awright! Keltoi comes through with the first “Clinton Did It™” of the thread at 11:14 am!
And he gets extra points for irrelevancy!
June 20th, 2008 at 11:22 amKeltoi Says:
Testifying before Congress today, Scott McClellan said Bush should not pardon Libby:
DEFINITELY pardon Mark Rich, though…
interesting gop talking point. but rich was a fugitive international commodities broker not a traitor who outed an covert american cia operative. got anything else?
maybe you could copy and paste rep. lamar smith’s opening statement before the committee – that’s what rogerse would do if he were here.
keep trying. good luck!
:)
June 20th, 2008 at 11:23 amupside99 ~ translation:
fjsdafioedfjasdofiaj
danfoeinaeo
davonpaiefna
ae;jrawerfaipvj!!!
June 20th, 2008 at 11:23 amrogerse,
WTF? Do you write with one hand in your mouth & one hand on your dick?
Try to at least be coherent in your babbling, ‘K?
June 20th, 2008 at 11:24 amMy thoughts exactly, upside.
Perhaps this whole episode has upset poor R-2 so much that he’s hysterical. Anyone got a fainting couch handy?
June 20th, 2008 at 11:24 amrogerse Says:
Gee, is he expecting special treatment?.is he willing to be prosecuted, or just those he finger points?.I suppose the finger pointing is supposed to suggest a pardon…
and his book was already written at a much less convenient time from the same perspective, so his capitalism hasn’t even helped anyone.
the preceding makes absolutely no sense. did you remember to take your lithium this morning?
stick to copying and pasting.
original thinking is not your strong suit.
good luck.
*
June 20th, 2008 at 11:26 amBush will pardon Scooter Libby based on opposition of doing so from his detractors. It’s how his mind works. What better way to cap off the presidency benefiting a few than to issue pardons benefiting a few. This is contrary to Clinton’s pardons, in which his actions benefited a few while leaving behind a prosperous and peaceful country benefiting most Americans. Clinton’s message wasn’t to stick it to most Americans.
June 20th, 2008 at 11:28 amGotta wonder why Libby is in jail then Tracer…
June 20th, 2008 at 11:28 amRU, Ralph and Zim:
Thanks folks, was glad it wasn’t just me.
This troll self-medication program has definitely impacted the output…. and not in a good way!
June 20th, 2008 at 11:28 amOoops, my bad. Scooter isn’t in jail. His sentence was commuted. Sorry tracer. He’s SUPPOSED to be in jail. If the chymp pardons him, wouldn’t he be required to testify?
June 20th, 2008 at 11:31 amRogerse is just an illiterate piece of crap troll who has nothing to contribute to this forum, let alone our entire nation. It’s no better than a hateful caller to Colmes, taking personal shots at Obama and raising nothing of substance.
June 20th, 2008 at 11:32 amrogerse Says:
ralph the wonder llama Says:
maybe if you had a reply it’d make sense…
are you in a hospital emergency room?
*
June 20th, 2008 at 11:32 amTracer, we’ll see. When all this shit finally comes out and hits the fan, I just hope you don’t get much on you.
June 20th, 2008 at 11:32 amupside99,
I believe they don’t hand out the Lithium until a Troll has posted a minimum of 10 posts.
Bear in mind, the posts don’t have to make sense or be legible, just ‘pump up the volume’.
June 20th, 2008 at 11:34 amNobody really cared about Clinton’s pardons except the politically crazy reich. Most Americans were enjoying life under Clinton’s policies. His pardon’s stuck it to the harassing reich, the perfect location.
June 20th, 2008 at 11:36 ammary Says:
——————————————————————————–
Why Keltoi? Did Mark Rich out an undercover CIA agent too?
No, it is just that Clinton’s Pardon-a-thon at the close of his administration set the bar for pardons so low you need a jackhammer to find it.
Also, as a Troll, I budget myself one egregious Clinton-did-it-too a month, and I am already half way through June. :)
June 20th, 2008 at 11:36 amYeah it was to “I sure hope Al Qaeda doesn’t stick it to you after I am gone”.
Trollish to English translation, please.
June 20th, 2008 at 11:37 amrogerse Says:
joe cantwell Says:
whats wrong with you, the comments made sense and you just couldn’t say anything, so your babling is pointless.
rest, relax and follow your dr.’s instructions.
and while you’re here let me give you that link for the spell checker again.
work on your punctuation!
good luck.
*
June 20th, 2008 at 11:44 amAll this yelling is giving me a headache, but I like your conviction.
June 20th, 2008 at 11:44 amWhat are you hoping happens?
That the rule of law is restored, that the Executive Branch is forced to admit its errors, and that we finally have three fully functional branches of Government again…
Wanna protect the United States of America? How about protecting what it stands for instead of apologizing for criminals, conspirators and crazies?
June 20th, 2008 at 11:46 amThanks, belac. I was just about to reply, but you said it so well.
June 20th, 2008 at 11:49 amhey keltoi check out this guy his pardons resulted in murder and rape.
ooops sorry, he’s a republican.
and you know what they say, “iokiyar!”
*
June 20th, 2008 at 11:53 amA former White House spokesman told Congress on Friday that President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney wanted him to say that Cheney’s chief of staff wasn’t involved in the leak of Valerie Plame’s CIA identity, an assertion that turned out to be false.
June 20th, 2008 at 11:53 amThis is what I’d like to see come out
RUCerious Says:
I just wonder what Tracy’s hoping for…
June 20th, 2008 at 11:54 amThe trolls here today are all missing the main point in that pardoning Libby is a CYA move by Bush. Bush has crossed a line that no other President that I can remember has ever done. Commute the sentence of a convicted criminal with the sole intent of protecting himself, his Vice President and his brain Karl Rove from prosecution on charges of being traitors to this Country. It is disgusting and immoral to use this power in order to obstruct a case that could lead to proving the guilt and/or complicity of the commuter himself. George Bush is a pathetic lowly amoral scumsucker who, if he had any sense of duty or pride in his Country would step down from his position for it’s well being and crawl under a rock somewhere in Texas and hope that the authorities don’t come looking for his sorry ass next year while the next Administration begins restoring this Nation’s once good name. He should also be seriously concerned that a growing number of international courts will be looking to charge him and his with war crimes. Marc Rich is a small blip on the radar as was President Clinton’s private, consentual matter that was dragged into the light by a desperate Republican prosecutor after years of digging in a partisan effort to find something, anything, that they could use against him. Bush on the other hand has commited so many crimes against this Country, IMHO he deserves to be either exciled (sp?) or thrown in a federal prison until he dies.
June 20th, 2008 at 11:56 amEarlier this month, McClellan said Bush should have fired Karl Rove for his involvement in exposing an undercover CIA agent. “He said we were going to set the highest of standards, we didn’t live up to that,” said McClellan.
While I applaud McClellan for telling the truth, he still doesn’t seem to get it. It was never about standards it was always about power.
http://progressiveworldreview.com
June 20th, 2008 at 11:57 amkeltoi?
keltoi…?
don’t feel bad. you were trying to be h.l. mencken and you did a face plant instead. it happens with trolls all the time. no big deal.
you’re just not cut out for astute political observation and punditry.
that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t keep trying.
it’s fun to watch you fail.
k?
*
June 20th, 2008 at 12:01 pmjoe cantwell Says:
hey keltoi check out this guy his pardons resulted in murder and rape.
Joe, shouldn’t this link lead to Mike Dukakis and Willie Horton?
Huckabee lost a shot at the Repub nomination for this pardon.
As to the Clinton pardons, I don’t think pardoning a convicted criminal for the simple reason he gave you a bunch of campaign/ presidential library money is a “blip.” Neither is perjury by the Chief Executive.
BUT – I confess, my initial comment was pure mischief, so let us not devolve any further. Then again, I anticipate a spate of McClellan inspired threads today, so maybe a little devolution would be healthy.
Pardons are an Executive power I am not a big fan of, regardless of who the Executive is, which party or what level.
June 20th, 2008 at 12:05 pmNo, it is just that Clinton’s Pardon-a-thon at the close of his administration set the bar for pardons so low you need a jackhammer to find it.
Someone’s forgot Reagan’s pardons of his own cronies…
That set the bar so low, it’s only discernable by radar sounding.
June 20th, 2008 at 12:06 pmNot sure it is actually a self-medication issue. Given that T-5 has also shown up, under the apparent influence of a sugar rush, I’m guessing the trolls know that Friday is Donut Day at Troll Central, and they just binged on Krispy Kremes in the break room before sitting down to blog.
June 20th, 2008 at 12:15 pmClinton was convicted of perjury? I didn’t hear that. In what court?
jeez, maybe the media IS liberal, after all, if they didn’t report that a former president was convicted of perjury. That’s serious stuff.
June 20th, 2008 at 12:18 pmKeltoi Says:
joe cantwell Says:
hey keltoi check out this guy his pardons resulted in murder and rape.
Joe, shouldn’t this link lead to Mike Dukakis and Willie Horton?
try this link k. where you will find the following:
“Democratic Presidential candidate Michael Dukakis was the governor of Massachusetts at the time of Horton’s release, and while he did not start the furlough program, he had supported it as a method of criminal rehabilitation. The State inmate furlough program was actually signed into law by liberal Republican Governor Francis W. Sargent in 1972.”
sorry to spoil your gop smear k.
you’re just not cut out for this.
good luck.
*
June 20th, 2008 at 12:20 pmMichael Dukakis pardoned Willie Horton? No wonder he lost to Poppy Bush.
June 20th, 2008 at 12:21 pmMy rightwing nut friend got quite upset at me today when I told him I would be watching the hearings. After a few usual rants about all politicians are crooked, the democrats do things too, etc., etc., he stretched back to JFK having afairs while President. He became quite angry at me, raising his voice higher and higher, as he spewed out republiscum talking points that have been discredited already then telling me how tired he was of listening to me bash Bush and republiscums in general.
I laughed at him and reminded him that the only thing I told him about this morning was the increased suicide rate among Japanese seniors. It was he who asked me what I had planned for the day after telling me about his sideline work (no taxes paid). I tried to tell him he must really be conflicted inside to get so angry about me watching a congressional hearing.
Watch out for exploding heads, the season has begun.
June 20th, 2008 at 12:23 pmk. geez almost forgot dude, that link showing the causal relationship between “huck” huckabee’s pardon and his failure to capture the gop presidential nomination, you have it right?
i mean you just didn’t make it up out of thin air because you think that’s the reason it happened, right?
you’ve got the hard data, you’ve got the facts so let’s see ‘em.
thanks.
good luck.
*
June 20th, 2008 at 12:28 pm#71
ralph,
k. only knows as much as lee atwater, roger ailes, floyd brown, et al. will let him know. they do his thinking for him.
it’s not really his fault.
he’s just incurious.
*
June 20th, 2008 at 12:34 pmI’ll trust you, joe, but I will say this for Keltoi; I’m betting he steered clear of the Break Room Donut Frenzy this AM.
Keltoi strikes me as more of a bagel-and-cream-cheese man.
June 20th, 2008 at 12:42 pmTracy5! Keltoi! Rogerse!
GOOD DOGGIES!!!!!
June 20th, 2008 at 12:56 pmjoe cantwell Says:
——————————————————————————–
k. geez almost forgot dude, that link showing the causal relationship between “huck” huckabee’s pardon and his failure to capture the gop presidential nomination, you have it right?
i mean you just didn’t make it up out of thin air because you think that’s the reason it happened, right?
you’ve got the hard data, you’ve got the facts so let’s see ‘em.
Dear Professor Joe Cantwell,
You may have noticed that in politics there is often not a direct cause and effect paradigm in place that can be linked, referenced and proven with 100% authenticity. So while I think it is a valid point that Huckabee lost the nomination in part because of his pardoning this man – as was mentioned in endless attack ads and debates by his competitors – I am afraid I will not be able to provide you with a bibiliographical reference. It will have to remain an opinion, such as one occasionally finds expressed in political blogs.
I will understand if this flunks me out of the Cantwell University of Hyper-Didactism. I look forward to the iron clad proof and documentation you will provide for every single statement you make at TP, perhaps I can learn something.
June 20th, 2008 at 1:17 pmk.
your original statement:
Huckabee lost a shot at the Repub nomination for this pardon.
your brand new improved statement:
So while I think it is a valid point that Huckabee lost the nomination in part because of his pardoning this man
notice the difference?
good luck.
*
June 20th, 2008 at 1:27 pmjoe cantwell Says:
Very tiresome, Professor Joe.
Good luck.
June 20th, 2008 at 1:29 pmKeltoi Says:
joe cantwell Says:
Very tiresome, Professor Joe.
Good luck.
i’m sorry.
didn’t mean to make you angry.
take a nap. you’ll feel better.
good luck.
*
June 20th, 2008 at 1:33 pmTracy-
June 20th, 2008 at 3:01 pmYou’re barking at the moon, everyone’s moved on…
Oh, excuse me. I didn’t realize that when you said this:
…you actually didn’t mean “supposed to be” (which is what you wrote), but instead you meant “should be” (which you now claim you said).
You have a valid complaint, T-5 — you were misquoted by yourself.
And of course, I somehow misinterpreted “Kinda like Clinton” to be equating the two situations. Don’t know how that could have happened.
June 20th, 2008 at 3:03 pm“And of course, I somehow misinterpreted “Kinda like Clinton” to be equating the two situations. Don’t know how that could have happened.”
I do.
Luckily for reason and sanity the JUSTICE system sees the two situations as entirely different. See why it’s important to have an independant judiciary, Tracy?
June 20th, 2008 at 3:17 pm“three functional branched again” slogan.
?
I have never done any of those things.
Libby is a convicted criminal, FYI. (just ’cause you don’t like it don’t make it so…)
June 20th, 2008 at 3:23 pm“Knock it off with the semantics”??? Really, T-5? This from the guy who complained “you need to slow down when you read because you are missing important information.”
So which is, T-5?
Am I reading too closely or not closely enough?
Let me type this slowly so you’ll be sure to understand.
You said Clinton was “supposed to be in jail”.
This implies that some system or authority decreed such a sentence.
Later, you insisted, “Didn’t say he was convicted, only the he should be in jail for it.”
Those are clearly two different statements. I understand how, with your limited understanding of language, you could equate the two, but you’re mistaken. Either that or you’re dishonest.
Given your penchant for insulting people with whom you disagree (ably demonstrated on this thread alone) I would guess it’s the latter.
June 20th, 2008 at 3:28 pmHmm… let’s see…
lying about a legal, consensual sexual affair in a civil proceeding
vs.
lying about a potential act of treason to a Grand Jury investigation…
Gee, I don’t know why one of these instances was deemed not rising to the level of perjury (and thus not indictable) and the other led to convictions on four counts and a prison sentence.
Can you explain it to me, T-5? Thanks.
June 20th, 2008 at 3:32 pmJeebus, T-5, use the google once in a while.
Libby was convicted of one count of obstruction, two counts of perjury and one count of lying to the FBI about how he learned Plame’s identity and whom he told.
June 20th, 2008 at 3:35 pmAhh… Mr. Llama you beat me to the punch again.
June 20th, 2008 at 3:37 pmT-5, understanding the nuances of language is not “nitpicking”, unless you’re seeking to hide those nuances and claim that one thing really means another.
You now what you meant, but we are not mind readers. All we have to go on is the words you type in the order you type them.
When you’re ready to take responsibility for that, and stop blaming me for what you typed, then we can have a conversation.
But knowing you, I have a suspicion that you’re not really here for a conversation.
June 20th, 2008 at 3:42 pmBut knowing you, I have a suspicion that you’re not really here for a conversation.
There you go nit-pickin’ again, Ralph. Conversation/Abuse, what’s the difference?
June 20th, 2008 at 3:45 pmI agree, Tracy. Scooter was a puppet (or was that a muppet) So you agree that Rove and Cheney should have been made to answer for their obstruction of justice?
June 20th, 2008 at 3:49 pmAh, so to you, the difference between a civil matter regarding consensual sexual activity and a federal Grand Jury investigating the compromise of a covert agent’s identity is, what?
“Negligible”?
Just trying to get your position clear in my head.
June 20th, 2008 at 3:49 pmYes, T-5, Clinton was accused of lying to a Grand Jury, in relation to a civil matter.
He was acquitted of that charge.
So, in the strictest understanding of our system of jurisprudence, no, Clinton did not “lie” to the grand Jury, just as Scooter did not “out” Valerie Plame because there was no conviction.
Understand?
June 20th, 2008 at 3:55 pmOkay, testifing under oath would be enough for me, too. Glad we got that cleared up. Wonder why they refuse?
June 20th, 2008 at 4:00 pmBecause I was responding to what you wrote, not to what you intended to say.
June 20th, 2008 at 4:02 pmAnd yet thay would be treated very differently by the justice system. I understand that you would imprison the five-year old gum thief for EXACTLY the same amount of time as the Bank Robber, but can you see how others might object?
June 20th, 2008 at 4:05 pmAnd how our legal system deals with them very differently?
Again I am not into moral relativism, but apparently you are. If you steal a 5 cent piece of bubble gum or if you steal a million dollars should be irrelevant.
So, lying to buttress a war claim is morally the same as lying about a blowjob?
June 20th, 2008 at 4:07 pmbarfly,
June 20th, 2008 at 4:11 pmTracy lives in a black and white world- he has no time for ’shades of grey’ and who can blame him?
After all, there are five year olds ripping gum off from mom and pop’s across America and Tracy won’t stand fot their laughter anymore… they’re mocking us with their sticky little faces and sticky little hands… PRISON, that’s the only answer- enough of this ‘moral relativism’!
What you call “moral relativism” I call weighing the costs and consequences to society.
You would put an eighteen year-old who stole, as you say “a 5-cent piece of bubblegum” in the same prison as a CEO who embezzled a million dollars, and for the same amount of time, apparently.
Never mind that the CEO cost the state untold times more money to prosecute and costs shareholders untold damages in lost funds and ruined company reputation. Never mind that the impact on the two lives is completely disproportionate or that the difference in abuse of trust is immense.
You go ahead and treat them both exactly the same. See how well that works for society.
Then, when you get to run for president, tell America that the treasonous outing of a covert agent is just as serious as a private sexual indiscretion. Yeah, that’s a winner, T-5. Run with that.
June 20th, 2008 at 4:12 pmThank you for admitting that you erred when you insisted that Clinton lied to the Grand Jury.
June 20th, 2008 at 4:13 pmThey have better things to do than let a bunch of vultures get their jollies off.
Really? They seem to have a lot of free time on their hands…
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/mason/5042364.html
June 20th, 2008 at 4:14 pmWhy does this comment make me think of Ken Starr breathlessly composing his report about what Bill and Monica did when no one was looking?
June 20th, 2008 at 4:15 pmMy mistake, T-5, I said “five-year-old gum thief” when I meant “eighteen-year-old thief of 5-cent piece of gum”.
Now is your response still the same?
June 20th, 2008 at 4:17 pmWhy do you have such a difficult time saying “Yes”?
June 20th, 2008 at 4:18 pmWho here wondered why we have a crime problem? I didn’t. I didn’t notice belac or barfly wondering.
Is this one of those clever wingnut tricks where you imagine the most extreme position possible, suggest as a form of hyperbole that someone holds it, then criticize that person for the imagined flaw that you projected onto them?
Seen it.
June 20th, 2008 at 4:25 pmAnd you cluelessly wonder why America has such a crime problem. Unbelievable.
When have I ever wondered why America has a crime problem? Is this projection a problem for you?
(See how lame that argument is when someone throws it back in your face, Tracy? We can both do better. Here’s my real answer…)
There are many factors that influence crime levels, poverty being chief among them. But ‘zero tolerance’ policies that have been tried have either no effect on crime or actually increase it… just sayin’
June 20th, 2008 at 4:25 pmi already explained why.
But I understand you’re not that quick on the uptake, so I’ll explain it again.
The social and economics of the two crimes are completely disproportionate, and the deterrent impact required for each case is completely different.
Thus, imposing the same sentence on an eighteen-year-old who stole a 5-cent piece of gum as you would impose on the embezzling CEO is counterproductive in terms of resources, impact on crime and social justice.
In short, it would inevitably make crime worse, not better.
Black-and-white, indeed.
June 20th, 2008 at 4:28 pmIn my youth, Tracy, I recieved a speeding ticket… I’m not proud of that fact but it is a fact nonetheless… Now, if I understand your new crime policy correctly (and please correct me if I’m wrong) I should have done EXACTLY the same sentence as a Drunk Driver?
June 20th, 2008 at 4:35 pmAfter all, they are both moving violations and both undoubtedly dangerous, am I correct?
Or maybe, a drunk driver is too much of a reach.
How about this… I was doing 70 in a 55 mph zone… (didn’t see the sign, I know excuses, excuses…) that’s 15 mph over… my fine should have been EXACTLY equal to the guy they just caught doing 180 in a 55 mph zone in his Ferrari?
Speeding is Speeding, after all…
Then do you agree or disagree that varying degrees of punishment for the same crime has led to high crime rates and repeat offenders?
Asked and answered (see #126) Your Honor, I move that Tracy be stricken from the record and ignored from now on…
June 20th, 2008 at 4:39 pmWow. This one has a real mental block. I don’t know whether it’s reading comprehension, a broader trouble with language in general, or an inability to reason efficiently, but something’s not firing on all cylinders.
June 20th, 2008 at 4:45 pmGood-day to you Tracy… I would like to take this opportunity to extend my condolences to your children, should you have any, as you sound like a real hard-*ss and unprepared parent.
I suspect that it’s mostly bluster now that you’ve painted yourself into this ‘moral relativism’ corner but your unwillingness to change your mind also does not bode well for your children’s future…
hopefully they won’t be to terribly mal-adjusted and can someday learn to forgive you… and see the frightened sheep inside of you that can’t EVER be wrong… I see him now and won’t challenge, or talk to you again… here’s hoping.
June 20th, 2008 at 4:58 pmYes. My opinion.
I doubt if I can “prove” it to you, since you seem pretty well set in your beliefs, but here’s some support for this particular opinion:
The American Bar Association talks about “Zero Tolerance” policies in schools:
“Schools are confusing equal treatment with equitable treatment. . . . Kids in middle school and high school care most about fairness. When they see two students whose ‘offenses’ are vastly different being treated exactly the same, that sense of fairness is obliterated and replaced with fear and alienation.”
Here’s a piece on Canada’s sentencing policies:
Canada ’s criminal justice system is highly effective in meeting the needs of the public for a safe and just society. Canada ’s approach to sentencing and corrections emphasizes fairness, effective protection of public safety, flexible and individualized approaches to sentencing and policy decision-making based on evidence of what works to reduce crime.
And, lest you complain about Canada’s crime rate:
The rate of property crime in the US and Canada are roughly on par. However, historically, the violent crime rate in Canada has been lower than the US and this continues to be the case. For example, in 2000 the United States’ rate for robberies was 65% higher, its rate for aggravated assault was more than double and its murder rate was triple.
I know it won’t convince you of anything, but you may learn a thing or two.
June 20th, 2008 at 5:00 pmI’m pretty sure I already answered it ,d!ck.
June 20th, 2008 at 5:01 pmWell, belac, there’s always the chance that his kids will one day have had enough and will brutally beat T-5 with baseball bats and douse his body with lighter fluid.
That sometimes happens with hard-a$$, unforgiving parents.
Then again, sometimes this happens to the kids:
A 13-year-old died Thursday after he was twice tied to a tree overnight for disobeying his parents, the Edgecombe County sheriff said today.
June 20th, 2008 at 5:05 pmTracy seems like a lost cause… I feel for those kids though, ralph, I really do…
June 20th, 2008 at 5:09 pmVery odd. Somehow T-5 read this passage:
When they see two students whose ‘offenses’ are vastly different being treated exactly the same, that sense of fairness is obliterated and replaced with fear and alienation.
and saw something that made his point.
Did he think this was some parent being quoted pushing “this BS relativism”? If so, it shows that he obviously didn’t follow the link and read the report.
Or did he just badly mis-read what was written and somehow convince himself that replacing a sense of fairness with “fear and alienation” is something to be pursued?
Very odd indeed.
I think belac is right. T-5 appears to be a lost cause. I too feel for those poor children, trying to grow up under the misguided tutelage of such a father.
Just don’t tie them to a tree when they misbehave, okay, T-5?
June 20th, 2008 at 8:06 pmThe funny thing is Ralph, I do have a son- he’s 5 and wants to be a paleontologist- so I’m pretty sure that I’m exactly as qualified as Tracy to dispense advice about parenting but I’m also wary of giving advice unless I feel that people really need help…
June 20th, 2008 at 8:19 pmand Tracy5 really needs help…
but I’ve read enough here today to know that I can’t help him… he needs to talk to a professional…
So I’ve decided to stop talking to him until he gets the help he needs- or at least can behave civilly on the threads.
So sorry ’bout the kids, though.
That’s funny, belac — I wanted to be a paleontologist when I was in first grade. When a sixth-grader came around to ask us what we wanted to be, for an article in the school paper (mimeographed, then), I had to spell it for her.
June 20th, 2008 at 9:39 pmNo President should be authorized to pardon any member of his/her own administration. PERIOD! Same goes for commuting sentences, or any form of clemency.
June 21st, 2008 at 2:14 am