On Fox News Sunday this morning, Weekly Standard editor Bill Kristol said that President Bush is more likely to attack Iran if he believes Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) is going to be elected.
However, “if the president thought John McCain was going to be the next president, he would think it more appropriate to let the next president make that decision than do it on his way out,” Kristol said, reinforcing the fact that McCain is offering a third Bush term on Iran.
“I do wonder with Senator Obama, if President Bush thinks Senator Obama’s going to win, does he somehow think — does he worry that Obama won’t follow through on that policy,” Kristol added. Host Chris Wallace then asked if Kristol was suggesting that Bush might “launch a military strike” before or after the election:
WALLACE: So, you’re suggesting that he might in fact, if Obama’s going to win the election, either before or after the election, launch a military strike?
KRISTOL: I don’t know. I mean, I think he would worry about it. On the other hand, you can’t — it’s hard to make foreign policy based on guesses of election results. I think Israel is worried though. I mean, what is, what signal goes to Ahmadinejad if Obama wins on a platform of unconditional negotiations and with an obvious reluctance to even talk about using military force.
Kristol also suggested that Obama’s election would tempt Saudi Arabia and Egypt to think, “maybe we can use nuclear weapons.” Watch it:
Kristol’s belief that Bush might attack Iran before leaving office is not new. In April, he told Bill Bennett that it wasn’t “out of the question” that Bush would consider such a strike because “people are overdoing how much of a lame duck the president is.”
The claim that Obama’s potential election could force Bush’s hand also isn’t new. Earlier this month, far-right pseudo scholar Daniel Pipes told National Review Online that “President Bush will do something” if the Democratic nominee won. “Should it be Mr. McCain that wins, he’ll punt,” said Pipes.
Both Kristol and Pipes apparently agree with President Bush’s claim in March that McCain’s “not going to change” his foreign policy.
And look how Wallace’s father pushed ugly war propaganda. Send this to everyone you can. See video: Apologize to the World Mr. Wallace and Return that Emmy
June 22nd, 2008 at 10:58 amCode to nation: Elect John McCain or I’ll start another freaking war!
Bush couldn’t claim responsibility for his heavy handed, violent acts to safe someone’s life. Oooppss! He doesn’t care about that…
June 22nd, 2008 at 10:59 amThe problem, dear Billy, is that once we’ve seen how the magic trick works (fear-mongering in your case), it no longer has the name impact.
June 22nd, 2008 at 10:59 amKristol is nucking futs, and a sleazy fearmongerer, but I have little doubt he’s right about this.
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:01 amWhy does Bush have to? Obama said he would do it.
“I will do everything in my power to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon, everything in my power to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon - everything,” he said to a standing ovation.
Obama’s supporters, via their standing ovation, seem to agree with attacking Iran.
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:03 amWell of course he will. Like anyone DOESN’T know that
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:03 amBill Kristol is one of those people who should never be quoted in public. Or seen or heard in public, for that matter.
The only way to stop the coming war with Iran is to remove Bush and Cheney from office. The ONLY way.
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:04 amWayne A. Schneider Says:
The only way to stop the coming war with Iran is to remove Bush and Cheney from office. The ONLY way.
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:04 am
Then I guess war with Iran is inevitable…
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:08 amWhat I see as a problem is that despite the fact that Obama has said that he would do “everything in his power” to stop Iran from building nuclear weapons, the right wing believes that ONLY military action will stop Iran. So they reject any peaceful means that could spare lives and assume that nothing short of bombing them will persuade them. Because Obama has not proposed military action as a first step, the right wing assumes that he will acquiesce and give in to them to everything.
Furthermore, Bush doesn’t like or understand anything about diplomacy. His attitude is that he won’t sit down and negotiate with Iran about their nuclear programs until they stop with their nuclear programs. You don’t “negotiate” with someone by insisting that they give in to all your demands before you’ll even talk about it. Some might that call that “appeasement” on the part of the ones caving in.
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:09 amWhy does this make me think of the scene in “Blazing Saddles” where the black sheriff grabs himself by the neck, points a his gun at his head, and threatens to kill [himself] if the angry mob doesn’t give up?
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:09 amKristol’s a lunatic. We give the Saudi’s billions in military support and Egypt hundreds of millions.
Note Bill never once mentioned Israel’s 200 or more nuclear weapons and the impact of those WMD’s in the Middle East.
Obama pandered to AIPAC as pointed out in an earlier post by Marwick. The White House asylum is full, amped out, and ready for a melee. And, as usual, they can’t claim responsibility for their own violent intentions/actions.
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:11 amThat’s the main problem with Neocon absolutism. No middle ground. Either it’s full-blown war, or appeased capitulation.
They can’t see the middle ground of negotiation, compromise, and concessions that generally produce results. It’s why they are about to have their powers stripped from them in November.
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:12 amLittle Billy, please do us all a favor. Next Sunday, stay home and play with your Erector set.
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:13 amI wish Kristol Meth would start picking stocks on TV ….. I would short every pick he made. That guy is a full-out smirking NeoCon disaster.
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:18 amkaty posted this last night on another thread: Photo essay of life in Iran.
Well worth a look.
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:19 amNo. Let him talk. That way people can see how crazy these idiots are. Keep up the screaming Willies.
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:23 amThat’s so scary. It’s more scary than doing it for a good reason. I feel like everyone in the White House used to be bullies in high school that got somewhere because their parents were rich. Who does this sort of shit so lightly for such stupid reasons?
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:24 am*yawn*
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:27 amWhy is it that none of these fools Kristol, Wallace, Bush have edumicated ( Bush speak ) on what Obamas foreign policy actually is…? When I have posted parts of it for republicans to read. They say “great plan” until I tell them that it is Obamas plan. Then all of a sudden it’s a bad foreign policy plan. Heck even McCains own informal foreign policy advisor said it was a great plan. Pure J.F.K. is what he called it….Here’s a link to THE PLAN.
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:28 amOoop’s fotgot the link….
http://www.thechicagocouncil.org/dynamic_page.php?id=64
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:29 amWhat Billie is implying is that the American People are too stupid to elect the right man. I’m sick and tired of these holier than thou “we know what’s best” ignorant ass people. This is supposed to be a democracy for Christ’s sake.
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:40 amWith every war a country goes further into debt. The Federal reserves loves war. (if you think the fed reserve is owned by the gov., you have a lot learning to do) This is a manifestation of the industrialized military complex. The United States will see poverty for the next decade following the end of Irqa war…the end to be determined. In the mean time we keep pushing up the bills. Rememeber what the US was like after Vietname??? Learn the truth that Keith Oberman is not allowed to talk about on tv…..www.zeitgeistmovie.com Your attitude towards people in power will change for good.
Learn before it’s to late…you will see why It can be late.
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:40 amIs this why George continues to look so happy while his popularity continues to plunge. The sociopath in chief needs to do everyone a favor - he needs to resign NOW! And take the Dick with him.
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:42 amWhy would anyone consider anything Fox says to be factual????
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:42 amNOLIESPLEASE Says:
Why would anyone consider anything Fox says to be factual????
Well, there is ‘factual’ and then there is ‘Foxual’. And they are at opposite ends of the truthiness spectrum.
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:47 amYawn 2
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:49 amNap time 1…….Blessings
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:55 amdidn’t I just post something? It seems to have disappeared…
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:57 amActually, this is great material for the Democrats and progressives to use. Each Democrat should be using this in interviews and talk shows. The conservatives are threatening the American public with the certainty of a new war unless McCain is elected. The question should be posed by the Democrats and the press to Bush - KRISTOL HAS MADE THE STATEMENT THAT YOU ARE LIKELY TO ATTACK IRAN DURING YOUR TERM IF IT LOOKS LIKE THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE WILL BE ELECTED. IS THIS TRUE? DO YOU NOT AGREE THAT MR. KRISTOL’S STATEMENTS WOULD IMPROPERLY IMPACT THE ELECTION?
This is the time to attack, attack and attack,
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:00 pmKristol and all the whiny, lying, war mongering wingnuts always try to blame the Democrats. Truth is Bush is going to attack Iran anyway because he is a sick and insane. Bush believes he is the chosen one to start Armageddon.
“Bush’s Armageddon Obsession, Revisited
by MICHAEL ORTIZ HILL
“We are lived by forces we scarcely understand,” wrote W.H. Auden. What forces live us now as America again torques toward war?
George W. Bush is certainly the plaything of such forces as the geopolitics of oil but it seems that he is susceptible to other even darker archetypal concerns. Let me be blunt. The man is delusional and the shape of his delusion is specifically apocalyptic in belief and intent. That Bush would attack so many vital systems on so many fronts from foreign policy to the environment may seem confusing from the point of view of realpolitik but becomes transparent in terms of the apocalyptic worldview to which he subscribes. All systems are supposed to go down so the Messiah can come and Bush, seemingly, has taken on the role of the one who brings this to pass.”
http://www.counterpunch.org/hill01042003.html
.this also explains why Bush destroys every thing he touches…
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:00 pmmarwick and stateofthedivision are both right wing tools that would have you believe that Obama is no different than bush or mccain….sorry but we know differently.
marwick’s name is linked to a right wing propaganda site that is replaying the lies that the right is telling because they can’t live with the truth….it gets in the way of their warmongering agenda.
state of the division implies on the link to his name that bush really is a uniter because he has made everyone dance to his violent game…..sorry guys….we see through the fog.
stateofthedivision also implies that Obama will not improve the health care situation any more than bush has…..bullcrap….wait and see.
I call this the fog of war that the repubs throw up to cloud the issues….they want us to think the democrats are the same but we know differently.
They would have you believe that we would be in Iraq right now even if a democrat had been elected…..no way.
they would have you believe that the sub-prime debacle would have happened if a democrat had been elected too……bullcrap…..
they would have you believe that katrina would have been handled the same by a democrat as it was by this bunch of bunglers….in should say miscreants because it was on purpose, not because they are inept….
ect., etc.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:03 pmThis belief is not news, but it’s still mind-boggling that our president’s radical supporters think he will start a war in order to swing an election…and they love him for it!
Of the Republican soldiers and their parents, the ones who believe we kill and die in Iraq “to keep America free”, how many do you suppose approve of war as a campaign tool?
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:03 pmI can’t stand the liberal media anymore. When are we going to get some republicans into the liberal NYTs?
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:05 pmHey, don’t you see it’s the perfect framing:
The attack on Iran: If it goes well, it was the President’s insightful and strong decision, to protect democracy throughout the universe.
If it goes badly, it wasn’t his fault: The country was about to elect a Democrat.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:09 pmHey, someone give Captain Obvious a cookie.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:09 pmSorry…but there is NO WAY an attack on Iran will go Well. If it doesn’t touch off World War III, we’ll all be very lucky.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:11 pmSo let’s weigh the complaining about some made up vandalism by the out going Clinton team to this possibility…
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:14 pmSo he’s basically saying:
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:15 pm1. The Republican/Neocon establishment really really wants to bomb Iran.
2. John McCain, if elected, will definitely bomb Iran.
3. These people are desperate to bomb Iran. Damn the consequences.
Sweet Gentle Jesus, this guy is a nut bucket.
The chilling part of this is that he is probably not far from wrong.
If Shrub attacks, though, I think that the American people will have had enough and finally tear down the White House gates.
We forget Presidential National Security Directive 51 at our peril.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:19 pmAll the neoCons are sociopaths - ignorant, short-sighted, mean-spirited, xenophobic, juvenile schooyard bullies. I fart in your general direction.
By the way, Zooey, thanks for the link to katy’s Iran pictorial.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:20 pmThey would have you believe that we would be in Iraq right now even if a democrat had been elected…..no way.
Oh really? Listen to the Democrats on Iraq!
they would have you believe that the sub-prime debacle would have happened if a democrat had been elected too……bullcrap…..
Oh really? The sub-prime debacle came from greed. Greed was fed by Clinton making gains in real estate tax free.
they would have you believe that katrina would have been handled the same by a democrat as it was by this bunch of bunglers….in should say miscreants because it was on purpose, not because they are inept….
I thought Mayor Ray Nagrin and Governor Kathleen Blanco were Democrats?
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:24 pmI honestly can’t decide whether it would be more effective to ignore Kristol or to mock him.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:26 pm“After Meeting with President Bush on June 4, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said ….
“We reached AGREEMENT on the need to take care of the Iranian threat. I left with a lot less question marks [than] I had entered with regarding the means, the timetable restrictions, and American resoluteness to deal with the problem. George Bush understands the severity of the Iranian threat and the need to vanquish it, and intends to act on that matter BEFORE THE END of his term in the White House.”
BEFORE THE END OF HIS TERM! For once, I’m afraid Bill Kristol is correct.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:28 pmmarwick,
You can never convince rational people that we would have invaded iraq if a democrat had been elected.
The sub-prime debacle was a direct result of de-regulation just as the s&l debacle was under a previous republican. It is predicatble….
bush manages fema…..they are supposed to assist local governments when needed….did they? No.
You just throw up false flags because that’s all you got.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:30 pmQuestion:
Does The Fed Reserve and international bankers own our government ?
Abso-freakin’-lutely.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:32 pmmarwick says:
Obama’s supporters, via their standing ovation, seem to agree with attacking Iran.
AIPAC = “Obama’s supporters”?
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!
If Hitler were alive and said he’d bomb Iran, he’d get a standing ovation from them, too.
You’re goofier than Kristol. Lil’ wingnuts can’t even keep their lies and obfuscations straight.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:32 pmThe Busheviks will start a war with Iran on Jan 18, 2009, and there’s not a fuukin thing ANYBODY could do about it…
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:32 pmMy immediate reaction was: It’s Sunday, so it’s time for another stupid remark from Kristol.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:33 pmMy true reaction is that I put nothing past the lying basturds in the White House, and my only hope is that enough talk like this months in advance may actually serve to preclude the boy-king and his minions from actually doing what is suggested.
But that doesn’t mean Israel won’t - does it?
So what Kristol is implying is that the American people should elect the best president for Israel not the best president of ourselves. The economy and our infrastructure and our housing market are all in the toilet but we should only worry about how Israel is doing even though they have enough nuclear weapons to decimate the entire middle east.
The French beheaded a king for less than this. Maybe we need to storm the Bastille.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:33 pmAMcG773 Says:
I honestly can’t decide whether it would be more effective to ignore Kristol or to mock him.
best thing: mangle his fingers so he hasta type with a stick tied to his forehead…
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:34 pm#10 bartolo
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:35 pmThere has been more than one reference to Blazing Saddles in this current campaign. Yours is appropos as well.
And Fred when are we going to start discussing McCain’s role in the S&L debacle as one of the Keating 5. If we have to resort to swift boating McCain to guarantee these traitors are out of power then that’s what we need to do. The time for playing nice is OVER.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:35 pmAnd the Bushies whined about how when Clinton’s people left they stole the W keys from all of the keyboards. It wasn’t true but it was another propaganda point for the message of the day in 2001 which was “the grownups are in charge now.”
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:37 pmBush isn’t done screwing everything up. He’s got one more flaming bag of dog poop to leave on the doorstep of President Obama.
Bombing Iran is the biggest one yet. His oily friends make a killing when oil is over $200/barrel. His defense contractor friends make a killing. He sets up a new world of problems for the next president so that the GOP has something to attack on. The troops are further bogged down indefinitely in Iraq as Iran retaliates there, guaranteeing Halliburton, KBR and Blackwater more time to gouge the taxpayer. The AIPAC warmongers get their way.
There’s a famous National Lampoon magazine cover with the caption, “If you don’t buy this magazine we’ll shoot this dog”. So Bill Kristol believes that Bush is thinking, “If you don’t elect John McCain, we’ll bomb this country”? It’s nice to have insight into the sources that inspire Bush’s policy decisions.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:38 pmGood to know we don’t invade nations because we’re worried about our own national security. We go bomb nations to meet the political agenda of the Republican. Gotcha.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:38 pm“Maybe we need to storm the Bastille.”
I think the anniversary of that event is July 14th.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:39 pmPaul Craig Roberts [former Assistant Secretary to the Treasury Reagan Admin.] says: “As Israel has several hundred nuclear weapons, and a modern air force and missiles supplied by the US, the idea that Israel needs American protection from Iran is a fantasy.”
And:
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:39 pmI agree 100% except the part about the swiftboating. The swiftboaters used lies to change reality. mccain is actually guilty and it can be proven.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:39 pmBy bombing Iran won’t they be starting the next cold war and this time we’ll be up against China and Russia. And shouldn’t the man that facilitates this kind of destruction of our nation be hanged? And Ms. Pelosi wouldn’t it be better to remove this kind of crazy before rather than after the damage is done? And if you don’t, maybe you need to hang next to him.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:41 pmI like the old tradition of drawing and quartering.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:42 pmI don’t know Kira, on the John Adams miniseries on HBO they showed a guy getting tarred and feathered. Then again on the Tudors they boiled a guy live in oil. Decisions, decisions.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:45 pmImpaling on a stick?
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:47 pmThe problems is Fred I saw Lindsay Graham and Joe Biden on Meet the Press this morning and Biden fought fairly and Graham just made stuff up and Biden was still polite. That ploy doesn’t really seem to work with the low information voters in this country and there’s more of them than us. That’s why the swift boating style used with the facts might work better.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:47 pmI like tarring & feathering if it also includes going door to door to apologize to each & every American Citizen.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:48 pmKira, that’s why things can get so vicious when women are in power. Hell hath no fury …
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:48 pmSo Kira are you suggesting somebody can actually survive tarring and feathering? I’ll have to rethink this then.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:49 pmIt is depressing that week after week amoral shills like Kristol are given a platform to say anything they want and without any serious challenge. And look at Kristol’s face when he’s saying that crap. He absolutely knows it’s bullshit, but his little Bush-like smirk says “and there ain’t nothing you can do about it”
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:51 pmBastards.
Hehe :) Shayne, you just said being nice gets us nowhere with the returds.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:52 pmbeing polite does not work, does not win elections, does not carry debating points.
one has to beat the living shit out of ‘em, drive their wives and children into the streets screaming lamentations, slaughter their livestock…
The ol’ Hebrews knew how it worked…
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:53 pmJohm McCain can call the Keating Five S&L Scandal “Old News”…but he’ll have a harder time dismissing the ENRON LOOPHOLE.
http://www.baltimorechronicle.com/2008/051908Leopold.shtml
John McCain’s chief economic adviser Phil Gramm also wants to stop proposed regulation of energy futures trading, a market that was famously abused when Enron Corp. manipulated California’s electricity prices in 2001.
Clearing the way for that California price gouging, Gramm, as a powerful Texas senator in 2000, slipped an Enron-backed provision into the Commodities Futures Modernization Act that exempted from regulation energy trading on electronic platforms.
Then, over the next year, Enron – with Gramm’s wife Wendy serving on its board of directors – worked to create false electricity shortages in California, bilking consumers out of an estimated $40 billion.
Energy Traders are doing the same thing now with oil prices. Why is energy trading on electronic platforms Deregulated??
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:54 pmAsk John McCain’s Chief Economic Adviser.
I’ve got an idea … how about a few months of waterboarding … since it’s not torture, mostly just fun & games.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:55 pm“He absolutely knows it’s bullshit, but his little Bush-like smirk says “and there ain’t nothing you can do about it”
Bastards.”
if i lived in DC, i’d probably hang around that metro station at Columbus Circle, where they have those really long, steep escalators, and where I might happen to brush against Mr. Kristol, near the top of one, and send him careening down into the pit…
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:56 pmHas anybody noticed the underlying assumption here? They assumption that Iran has a nuclear weapons program in the first place?
This whole story is one of those evil lies that is intended to go under the radar by talking about a subject (”what should we do about the nuclear weapons”) when there is no substance to the subject in the first place.
And it’s working. Even on thinkprogress readers. Very scary. That’s how we ended up in the Iraq war in the first place.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:59 pmAnd what, pray tell, has bloody Billy ever been right about? Has he ever said anything that was true about the current quagmire in Iraq? Does the NYT have to correct his lies on a weekly basis? Bloody Billy is the world’s worst person in the whole world.
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:59 pmJohn Murtha (D-Pa.) Marines “overreacted” during the haditha incident and killed civilians “in cold blood.”
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:54 pm
There’s no one in the world with less conscience than a 19-year-old Murkin Marine with a gun.
The marines committed cold-blooded murder in Haditha, Falluja, and everywhere they have been stationin Iraq.
The real tragedy is that not a single one of ‘em will get the punishment they deserve…
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:59 pmI would like to apologise beforehand for posting a completely off-topic comments, but I don’t want to let the troll’s idiocy unchallenged:
Oh really? The sub-prime debacle came from greed. Greed was fed by Clinton making gains in real estate tax free.<?i?
~ marwick 12:24 pm
The current sub-prime crisis came from greed alright, but it was largely due to the relaxed lending standards: Lenders were giving credit to anyone who could breathe, regardless of their ability to re-pay the loans.
This is a very well-known fact to anyone who has been following the news:
Biggest Culprit: The Lenders
Most of the blame should be pointed at the mortgage originators (lenders) for creating these problems. It was the lenders who ultimately lent funds to people with poor credit and a high risk of default.
Who Is To Blame For The Subprime Crisis?
The mess was compounded by unscrupulous investing firms who re-packaged these loans in hedge funds, then lied to their investors about the risks:
The case against Mr. Cioffi and Mr. Tannin is based heavily on a series of e-mails that revealed intriguing behind-the-scenes disorder at the Bear Stearns hedge fund as its investments began to slide last year, setting off a state of panic among the defendants.
FBI charges pair in subprime debacle
All this information is widely available to anyone who can read. The inability of the Bush bootlickers to follow the news and deal with reality is almost pathological, and goes to their credibility to post opinion on this or any other topic.
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:00 pmALL 16 U.S. intelligence agencies concluded last November that Iran had stopped nuclear weapons-related work in 2003 and had not resumed it as of last year.
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:03 pm@ 78, Gregor Samsa says:…The mess was compounded by unscrupulous investing firms who re-packaged these loans in hedge funds, then lied to their investors about the risks.
these two seem to me to be likely candidates to test the theory that public executions have deterrent effect. Show trials, and live TV. Cap ‘em, and see if brings down the incidence of further corporate mal- and misfeasance.
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:07 pmWhy is it that there isn’t more outrage about the US starting another illegal war? Why are the trolls here seeming to be supportive? Are they in the defense contracting business or the oil industry?
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:11 pmheadybrew.net - yes it’s awful how the rw propaganda seeps into the subconscious mind. Their talking points have poisoned the well.
Actually, TP’s Amanda posted this in Dec. of last year: NIE: Iran ‘Halted’ Nuclear Weapons Program In 2003, Unlikely To Develop A Weapon In This Decade
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:13 pmI hope all those morons who voted for Bush remember it’s their fault when WWIII destroys what’s left of America.
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:19 pmDon’t hold yer breath, ThomasMc, you KNOW what One Trick Ponies they are doncha? “Clinton Did It” they will chant in unison.
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:21 pmlock_box Says:
this poster doesn’t make any sense to me. He tries to compare Murtha’s assesment of a nightmarish event that should never have happened to kristols war mongering???
Are you saying we should never have discussed whether a crime was committed and how did what Murtha said lead to the death of millions…..and if kristol has his way….many more millions of human beings?
When will you guys put your ego’s aside for the good of the country?
Al Gore will help when we retake power….heh.
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:24 pm#83, ThomasMc
Unfortunately by that time it will be too late. The time is now - and we are moving far too slowly.
I keep thinking of the post-apocalyptic end-of-the-world “On the Beach.”
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:25 pmThey are not all peaches. See Abu, guantanamo, torture, white phoshorus, etc.
Some are criminal minded, especially now that bush has had to lower standerds for recuitment to meet his heinous needs.
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:32 pmHi lock_box.
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:35 pmHow in your mind our service people stuck in Iraq putting their lives on the line for me and mine? Iraq wasn’t a threat to me. I am curious how you see this. Many of my former students are in the service and almost universally when they have dropped by while home they have expressed confusion as to what exactly the are doing there and why. Sure there have been a few exceptions but not many.
huh? guess I shouldn’t be too surprised. Since the first post didn’t make any sense I guess this one should follow suit….would you like to clarify why you would deny this when we all heard it?
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:36 pmlock_box Says:
What a pathetic sad excuse for a human being!!
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:22 pm
Yes, you are.
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:37 pmFred was kind to point out a few of my over 1,500 posts, but he mislabelled me a right wing nut job and there are way too many already!
My skepticism over the current Repugnicant Damnocrat plan to jettison health insurance responsibility to the employee comes from my indenpendent voter status and over 25 years in health care. Does anyone remember defined benefit pensions that went the way of the dinosaur? Just as you now provide for your own retirement (IRA’s, 401k’s, 403b’s, etc.), corporate America and their D.C. red & blue henchmen are planning for the next big profit boost. They’re salivating to ditch that pesky and expensive health insurance benefit.
While most of the dirt I’ve found the last four years has been red, I come across some blue and haven’t hesitated to call “a spade, a spade,” or “a buy, a Bayh.”
And Fred, how many right wingers have companion blogs that focus on private equity firms (especially The Carlyle Group)and Ari Fleischer’s Freedom’s Watch. They’re PEU Report and Aris Freedom Switch. It’s nice to know I’m an equal opportunity offender.
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:39 pmWell, if you epitomize free thought then I guess I was mistaken. I thought you were preaching the same tired lines for failure that we have heard the last 7 years.
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:40 pmlock_box Says:
dbadass Says:
Why don’t you ask your senators that voted for it?
Tell us again why you support the current occupation?
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:42 pmThis is so bizarre.
If Kristol is right, and he almost never is, we ought to prophylactically impeach Bush and Cheney to protect the country from an unauthorized declaration of war.
I never figured out why the New York Times hired this twit and I never read his op/ed piece. If I really had some respect for him, I’d use his column to line Midnight’s cat litter box but I figure ignoring him is enough.
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:42 pmlock_box Says:
——————————————————————————–
dbadass Says:
Why don’t you ask your senators that voted for it?
Because I am asking you to defend a statement you made. This looks weak.
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:44 pm#94 lockbox - why don’t you answer dbadass’ question?
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:45 pmWhatever you say state. Your status as bolded tells me all I need to know. While democrats may have not stood their ground on many things it is the republicans who push for the destruction of health care and pensions, not democrats.
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:45 pmTypical.
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:45 pmMy comment #102 should have been appended to comment #100.
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:46 pmAbsolutely, Fred #101. Michael Moore’s movie SICKO documents the continual republican war on healthcare.
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:49 pmFunny you should mention Katrina, Fred. Maybe you can get my question answered, as years of asking accountable elected officials produced not one answer:
Why did Fran Townsend’s White House Lessons Learned report omit the hospital with the highest number of patient deaths? LifeCare lost 24 patients from Katrina’s sideswiping New Orleans. Guess who closed their purchase of LifeCare just weeks before landfall? It’s a private equity underwriter with a Pennsylvania Avenue address. Ding, ding, ding. It’s The Carlyle Group.
As a health care leader, I endured in a dead river flooded Virginia hospital in the 1980’s. Later that decade I helped evacuate a Texas Gulf Coast hospital before then record Hurricane Gilbert. I wrote the White House hourly after Katrina made landfall. What this administration did in responding was criminal. Covering for their high dollar, politically connected friends might fall into the same category.
I realize you can’t read all a blogger’s posts before labelling them, so consider this a helpful summary. No, I don’t believe Democrats would have botched the Katrina response like George W. and his band of thugs.
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:49 pmBeing acquitted of a crime by a jury (or judge) and having charges against you dropped are not equivalent things. In both cases, it is entirely possible that you may also be guilty of the crimes. In the first case, you could not be tried again, and in the second case, you could.
The investigations themselves into the Haditha killings were highly criticized for being inadequate which, in itself, led to some of the charges being dropped. Also, Iraqi accounts of the incident often conflicted with Americans’ accounts of the incident. No surprises there. Five witnesses to the same car accident will give you five different stories about what happened.
All in all, in the end, many entirely innocent Iraqi civilians were massacred by American forces. The Iraqis want someone to be held accountable for that.
There is a difference between actually being in danger and simply believing yourself to be in danger. Remember that.
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:52 pmlock_box?
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:57 pmDid anyone read the recent WaPo piece on health care?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ wp-dyn/ content/ article/ 2008/ 06/ 16/ AR2008061602471.html?hpid=sec-business&sid=ST2008061602912
Sens. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) and Robert F. Bennett (R-Utah) are sponsoring the Senate’s first bipartisan proposal for universal coverage. It would encourage the demise of employer-based health insurance by creating a state-run system requiring insurance companies to offer basic coverage to all applicants and requiring individuals without employer-based coverage to buy in.
And Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus (D-Mont.) said he may offer his own plan later this year.
This is the same Max Baucus who accepted donations from eight for profit healthcare companies with no, as in zero, facilities in his state.
The head of the largest healthcare union, Andy Stern, called employer sponsored health insurance “dead and not coming back.”
I really don’t care what you call me Fred, but these are some of the things I’ve found in my four years as an independent blogger.
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:59 pmstate of the division,
Just because we agree about Katrina doesn’t mean we agree about dems being just like republicans. Sorry.
I am more than willing to discuss these issues and we will always disagree on some points but you can’t blame democrats for deregulation, financial disasters resulting from them and the Iraq war.
Also consider the many(not just fema) regulatory agencies that have been crippled by them because they can’t justify getting rid of them. Food supply….who’s watching it? Federal drug admin….works for pharma, etc. none of these issues are primary democrat venues……all of them are republican.
ps…many trolls who are righties come here and claim to be independants….heh…..
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:59 pmIt has been my fear that this is what Bush would do, and then he could cry, “Don’t change horses in midstream.” I worked for Roosevelt. However, I don’t think Bush would initiate the war. He would get Israel to make the first attack and then, in support of his ally, enter the fray. The best way to avert this catastrophe is to do what you are doing - keep it in the public eye. If he knows we are wise to him, he may have second thoughts. But, then, knowing Bush, he may not.
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:03 pmlock_box:
Did I or did I not ask you a simple question of your opinion?
by posting this
“I was taking about Rep. Murtha and stuipidass (dbadass) brings up the same argument that always gets thrown out there when someone talks about the war. When you lose an argument you just try to change the subject”
You seem to show yourself as potentially intectually fraudulent. Whereas we where in no argument as I only engaged you with this one question, the suggestion of anything lost is impossible. Now as to your poor manners, I think that may reflect poorly as well since you have been treated with dignity. Can you not simply answer the question posed to you?
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:04 pmLock-box says:
To accuse the people that are putting their life on the line for you to score some cheep political point is beyond sick, it’s disgusting, especially for an ex-marine to do this. What a pathetic sad excuse for a human being!!
Here is why we are asking you about the Iraq quagmire; YOU say our troops are fighting for US! They are not fighting for ALL of us, only the NeoCon BushCo scumbags getting rich off their blood.
We want them all home and NOW! They are doing nothing to make me safer, just the opposite.
But that isn’t their fault.
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:08 pmI’m just wondering if the rest of the world will stand by while we invade yet another country with no provocation. They didn’t really like it the last time and this time we will be directly crossing both China and Russia.
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:10 pmThanks lock_box but I still don’t see where that answers my question. The question was how are service people deployed in Iraq, risking their lives to protect mine? Certainly they are risking their lives no doubt but how is it protecting mine? I am also a little confused by the thinking that says risking more lives in the name of already lost lives makes cognitive sense. I have heard this idea thrown about but never gotten a coherent exaplaination of the logic behind it. Is it like the idea that homosexual marriage is a threat to heterosexual marriage? Things some feel sure of but just can’t explain?
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:17 pmThere’s that republican logic at work. Thanks for saying that, it all comes clear. We made a terrible mistake so we will make the old gamblers choice of chasing our losses……..send more to die by god.
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:18 pmFred, of course Democrats aren’t just like Republicans, but they took a big step in that direction the last decade and a half. Big corporate money turned alot bluer this election cycle, and believe me they expect value for their investment.
The subprime crisis was criminal. Speculation is responsible for 60-80% of the price of a gallon of gas. Wall Street’s financial “innovation” brought us both of these crises. They run a mostly fixed game where the last guy holding the bag loses big, but huge money was made in between.
I’m sure we agree on many things. That said, I find it helpful to research questions and sometimes the blue side has skeletons in their closet. I’ve found nowhere near as many, but I do chronicle them. If you looked over my blogs, you’ve found some sarcastic pieces. In that vein, I offer a link to Mark Twain quotes on politics:
http://www.twainquotes.com/Politics.html
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:18 pmLock-box sounds just like the wackos at the end of the Vietnam Clusterfcuk. Since we lost 58,000, we have to stay to lose more.
What is this dude smoking, anyway?
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:24 pmWhat exactly are “unconditional negotiations”? Isn’t the purpose of negotiations to set yet undetermined terms and conditions?
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:25 pmI know many are frustrated with the moderate democrats…..but you have to remember that Clinton was one of those right leaning dems and he still did not capitulate to corporate America.
Regulations remained in place and money was still made by all. Corps saw a chance to clean up with bush in office however and they have with republican help.
We have a struggle to swing our dems back to the left I agree. That movement has begun though and the republicans cannot stop it, even with a war…..might delay it but not stop it without destroying us all. I don’t think the money makers will go along with that scenario.
We have no hope with republicans to achieve our goals.
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:28 pmContrary to what we saw in the 1990s with Clinton, impeachment (and removal from office) doesn’t have to take months: It can happen in ONE DAY.
The House can take it up in the morning and send the referral to the Senate by noon. The Senate can hold the trial after lunch, finish all before dinner.
Joe Biden said months ago that the Kyl-Lieberman amendment did NOT authorize Bush to launch a war against Iran:
Unfortunately, that would happen after the fact, if at all. Can anyone imagine that after unleashing the dogs of war (again), Congress would go forward with impeachment when the argument against it would be “You can’t weaken an American President’s stature once a war has begun”?
But it might help explain Dennis Kucinich’s recent introduction of articles of impeachment. The Democrats may be lining up the ducks, getting them ready, and using it all to deter Bush from attacking (or getting Israel to do it).
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:40 pmAny thoughts lock_box?
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:41 pmOf course Bush will attack Iran. Lieberman, McCain and Bush have all been talking about it. The whole idea is to split the Gulf’s oil reserves amongs US, Europe, India and China. After Iran is defeated, all the oil fields will be divided up amongs the three or four major powers.
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:43 pmoh come now rogerse, that is so “old Europe”
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:55 pmClinton started two trends that Republicans wound into an obsession. First, spinning off government functions into private corporations. Bill spun off the security clearance arm as U.S.I.S. It ended up in the fold of The Carlyle Group, who later flipped it for huge profits. Sallie Mae, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac all went similar routes.
The other is contracting out government services to the supposedly, more efficient private sector. The military contracts out virtually every function but the fighting soldier and military brass. The Bushies perfected the government money push to their corporate friends with indefinite quantity, indefinite delivery billion dollar contracts.
The previously mentioned Carlyle Group plays into both trends. They see the blue writing on the wall and have Mack McLarty and David Marchick, both Clinton White House staffers on the payroll. David testified to Congress recently on the benefits of foreign government owned corporations buying big chuncks of American companies or U.S. infrastructure.
Carlyle also is buying Booz, Allen & Hamilton’s government services division which just got a $12 billion indefinite quantity/indefinite delivery Defense Department contract.
The struggle is getting elected leaders to act on behalf of all Americans. While no one party has a monopoly on bad management theory, following their various mantras causes America and its citizens suffering.
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:56 pmKristol: Bush Might Bomb Iran If He ‘Thinks Senator Obama’s Going To Win’
If there is any truth to this statement, and most of us tend to think so, then…
this is ONE more IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE to add to the list.
Get on it Congress!
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:59 pmThe fact Bush Might Attack Iran needs hearings, investigations… Where is Congress?
June 22nd, 2008 at 3:07 pmThis needs tying to the more recent TP story about Bolton’s remarks about bombing Iran.
I must have missed the news on the day that the Arab states became the 51st U.S. state. Who gives a @%!# about the Arab states “excitement”? If we really wanted to “excite the Arab states”, we could attack Israel instead of Iran.
If this story turns out to be true, this will be yet another sea change by the Bush administration, with regard to a President’s tenure and influence beyond his term.
Up to now, Presidents haven’t embarked on “new projects” in the waning days of their administrations (particularly militarily), doing only the bare minimum (defensive only, certainly not “actions of choice”) and leaving it for the next Commander-in-Chief.
All previous Presidents have recognized this as the territory of “stewardship” within the POTUS/CIC job description (and not “ego/legacy”). They had their chance to design and shape the direction they believed the country ought to be headed in during their years of working with the Congress and from their bully pulpit talking to the American people. They may not unilaterally commit the nation to an irreversible path, such as launching another “preemptive war” in the last days of their Presidency, dumping the repercussions on the next administration.
June 22nd, 2008 at 3:21 pmhttp://www.saudinf.com/main/011.htm
THE KINGDOM OF SAUDI ARABIA BELIEVES that disputes between nations should be resolved by negotiation and, if negotiation fails, by reference to international law, not by acts of aggression or violence.
THE KINGDOM OF SAUDI ARABIA BELIEVES that the best interests of all countries in the Middle East would be best served if all countries in the region obeyed the relevant United Nations Resolutions.
THE KINGDOM OF SAUDI ARABIA HAS CONSISTENTLY ARGUED that the Middle East should be free from all weapons of mass destruction.
June 22nd, 2008 at 3:42 pmKing Abdullah warned Bush that invading Iraq would destabilize the region:
http://www.saudiembassy.net/ 2005News/ Statements/ TransDetail.asp?cIndex=560
Other than having their sovereign wealth funds more full of cash, I can’t see why the Saudi King would want George W. to undertake round #2 in the neighborhood.
June 22nd, 2008 at 3:48 pmIs the tail wagging the dog to death?
Sunday, June 22, 2008
Kevin Barrett discusses “left gate keepers” and Israel’s influence over American media including Amy Goodman’s Democracy Now with Muhammad Idrees Ahmad.
June 22nd, 2008 at 4:14 pmIt certainly would be nice of Senator Obama to mention to the chymp & Company that an attack on Iran will not only trigger an impeachment, but all the neoclowns being sent immediately to Den Hague for war crimes trials on Jan 21, 09.
June 22nd, 2008 at 4:25 pmHmm,
June 22nd, 2008 at 4:28 pmComment about Cindy McCain’s beer company “awaits moderation”
what’s wrong with that - TP?
Sounds like a plan by Bush, Cheney and the neocon crowd to give the people of this country “an offer they can’t afford to refuse.”
Doesn’t this look like a roadmap for one monarch to designate who their successor will be and wasn’t this the same system that this country overthrew beginning in 1776?
June 22nd, 2008 at 4:56 pmstateofthedivision Says:
A lot, but this thread is about the likely attack on Iran if Obama gets elected. Not about healthcare right?
June 22nd, 2008 at 5:15 pmMarie, I have a harmless long post that has disappeared but the trolls always get to spew bigotry and insults no problem.
June 22nd, 2008 at 5:16 pmNice job of moderating TP.
Shayne, methinks the TP staff hired little Timmy Putz to do moderation on the weekends…
June 22nd, 2008 at 5:18 pmSo Kristol suggests that Bush will politicize the issue with Iran?
But…I didn’t think that Republicans did such things.
June 22nd, 2008 at 5:24 pmdoes TP offer a list of all the halfway words? I really think that a knoll eyes is ridiculous. b*itch gets me in trouble but I never use it in any usage except in the “to complain” context. D-bag is just a fun word and also should be lightened up on.
June 22nd, 2008 at 5:28 pmdbadass, look at the word I can get away with
McIIIrd’scu*trollopybytchofastepfordcashcow!
June 22nd, 2008 at 5:44 pmOr else RUC there’s nobody watching the site on Sunday and comments go into limbo and nobody rescues them.
June 22nd, 2008 at 5:50 pmMy apologies Shayne. I offered two comments, #2 & #11, before Fred decided I was a right wing troll. The rest has been a discussion between the two of us, which is off topic for the thread.
I thought I was posting #131 & #132 under the Bolton “secret Saudi joy” over an Iran attack piece, but erred. Some days are rough. Will try to do better in the future.
June 22nd, 2008 at 5:51 pmMcIIIrd’scu*trollopybytchofastepfordcashcow!
June 22nd, 2008 at 5:56 pm!!!!!!
excellent. It is all just so silly? Sort of Roberto Clemente has two balls on him type silly
Why is it that people like Kristol still have jobs? I mean, these neocon jerks have been wrong about everything since 9/12/01. Gereally, people who are that bad get fired, don’t they? Who could believe these wolf-criers?
June 22nd, 2008 at 6:16 pmdbadass, exactamento!
statediv ~ somedays we just get our corks screwed in either too tight, or busted up down in the bottle!
June 22nd, 2008 at 6:17 pmHensley & Co., one of the nation’s major beer wholesalers, has brought the family of Cindy McCain wealth, prestige and influence in Phoenix, but it could also create conflicts for her husband, Sen. John McCain, if he is elected president in November.
Hensley, founded by Cindy McCain’s late father, holds federal and state licenses to distribute beer and lobbies regulatory agencies on alcohol issues that involve public health and safety. The company has opposed such groups as Mothers Against Drunk Driving in fighting proposed federal rules requiring alcohol content information on every package of beer, wine and liquor.
Its executives, including John McCain’s son Andrew, have written at least 10 letters in recent years to the Treasury Department, have contributed tens of thousands of dollars to a beer industry political action committee, and hold a seat on the board of the politically powerful National Beer Wholesalers Assn.
And what were the repugs saying about Teresa Heinz Kerry and her ketchup/pickle company?
June 22nd, 2008 at 6:33 pmI’m confused. On the one hand, Bush is a nut lunatic who just might use his last gasps to start yet another war. But, then again Kristol has prety much been wrong on every statement he has made about the Middle East, especially Iraq. So, I’m not sure what to think. In any case, we should impeach the Boy President now before he can do any more mischief.
June 22nd, 2008 at 6:43 pmAnything coming from Fox News has now been recognized as coming down from the Council of Zionists Traitors.
The Zionists obviously don’t want Barack Obama in office. That fact alone will make Americans vote for him.
June 22nd, 2008 at 7:02 pmcontinuum Says:
I’m confused. On the one hand, Bush is a nut lunatic who just might use his last gasps to start yet another war. But, then again Kristol has prety much been wrong on every statement he has made about the Middle East, especially Iraq. So, I’m not sure what to think. In any case, we should impeach the Boy President now before he can do any more mischief.
June 22nd, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Actually, Kristol has often been right about what the Administration will do. He’s just been wrong about the results.
June 22nd, 2008 at 7:04 pmWe shouldn’t be surprised at what Kristol and Bolton are saying, and it’s a toss-up as to whether it’s just fearmongering.
But, something I would give very high probability to is that if Obama wins, or if it seems clear that he will win, the Bushies will finally make the effort to kill or capture Bin Laden. While Bin Laden has been very useful to the Bushies fear and propaganda campaigns since 9/11/01, they will not want to leave him out there beyond his usefulness. As the Bushies will not want Bin Laden to be killed or captured under the upcoming Democratic administration, they will do everything possible to get him by Inauguration Day, 1/20/09.
June 22nd, 2008 at 7:04 pmI think the Americn people should rise up and the Democrats get some back bone and try Bush and Chaney for WAR CRIMES.
June 22nd, 2008 at 7:07 pmBill Kristol disqualified himself from being allowed to speak in public when, in 2003, he told Terry Gross on NPR’s “Fresh Air” that it was nothing more than “pop sociology” that the Shiite and Sunnis in Iraq didn’t “get along.”
I’m so used to listening to Kristol’s lies that I’ve concluded that the opposite of what he says is the truth. For that reason, I am glad he is making this grotesque prediction about bombing Iran. That means it WON’T happen!
And what’s up with this condescending smile forever etched on his face? Is it botox or just part of his psychosis? Inquiring minds want to know!
June 22nd, 2008 at 7:16 pmRememberFlorida ~the condescending smile forever etched on his face
is just his little way of saying:
I know better than you do, nanner nanner boo boo.
In other words, he’s an arrogant, ill-informed, weasel.
June 22nd, 2008 at 7:30 pmRISTOL: I don’t know. I mean, I think he would worry about it. On the other hand, you can’t — it’s hard to make foreign policy based on guesses of election results.
Even harder to make foreign policy based upon the whims of dipshits…………….
June 22nd, 2008 at 8:06 pmlock_box Says:
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dbadass Says:
So badass are you suggesting we leave because we think it no longer makes any sense to finish what we have started?
June 22nd, 2008 at 8:09 pm
What exactly have we “started” in Iraq , besides a huge , unnecessary and needless clusterfu(k , GI Joke ?
June 22nd, 2008 at 8:18 pmRUCerious Says:
McIIIrd’scu*trollopybytchofastepfordcashcow!
June 22nd, 2008 at 5:44 pm
**snort**
June 22nd, 2008 at 8:24 pmKristol’s belief that Bush might attack Iran before leaving office is not new. In April, he told Bill Bennett that it wasn’t “out of the question” that Bush would consider such a strike because “people are overdoing how much of a lame duck the president is.”
The claim that Obama’s potential election could force Bush’s hand also isn’t new. Earlier this month, far-right pseudo scholar Daniel Pipes told National Review Online that “President Bush will do something” if the Democratic nominee won. “Should it be Mr. McCain that wins, he’ll punt,” said Pipes.
The above comments/statements , truly sums up the impossibly insane view the current GOP along with the loser NeoCons , actually possess.
Since when the hell does an outgoing/lame duck president , who simply happens to also be the worst in US history , in a position to determine direction or policy for the incoming one ?
That is one of the craziest and most illogical things I have ever read or heard……….
June 22nd, 2008 at 8:24 pmWe “finished what we started” in May of 2003 when we deposed Saddam Hussein, right?
What are you proposing we “finish” now? Securing the rights to the flow of Iraqi oil?
But since your side was WRONG about every prediction they made in the run up to war and its immediate aftermath, you don’t get to make predictions about the future and have them hold any weight. You guys talk about “backlash” as if it were a given, never considering the likelihood that the presence of a foreign occupying army gets in the way of every frickin’ step the Iraqis try to take toward establishing their own functioning government.
Not really sure what Europe has to do with your question, but “an all out collapse of Iraq” would make us look pretty stupid for invading in the first place, for ignoring the multitude of voices warning agains