To clarify – I said, the JREF organization – non-ethical in the sense of being contrary to conscience, social and professional behavior.

I mean that specifically in the context of the rest of my comment at #183 – specifically the juvenile Freeper tactics used to denigrate people who have differing viewpoints.

Wow! I didn’t know this — I’m an expert on 9/11. I’ve been studying 9/11 intensely for the past 4+ years. I also have the advantage of having bona fide structural engineers in my family. They find the work by Journal of 9/11 Studies and Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth the most compelling.

Unfortunately, most of the evidence has been destroyed – a first for any major disaster in the US.

As I said, I’m extremely disappointed to find you, of all people, joined at the hip with the JREF organization. They are non-ethical in the sense of being contrary to conscience, social and professional behavior.

You, of all people :(

You run a website named for White Rose – a group of people who were dedicated to disseminating the truth while living underneath an oppressive society ruled by Goebbels’ Ministry of Propaganda.

Yet you, Ben Burch, are using the term “Truther” in a derogatory way – as a smear.

You, Ben Burch, delight in calling those of us who are seeking the TRUTH “Moonbats who poison the well.”

Moonbats – please. That’s straight out of Freeperville. You have joined forces with the Dark Side. You are truly a Left Gatekeeper as you proudly proclaim at JREF.

This is so anti-productive to any discovery of TRUTH. It is wrong to inhibit questioning on any subject that might come up – even ideas that may seem crazy to you. There’s a lot of CRAZY to explore in the DOD and elsewhere.

I will wear the badge of “Truther” with honor — even though I do not belong to any organization.

If you think “Truther” is something derogatory, what badge do you wear? Non-truther?

Thanks, but no thanks.

Assuming the top bit of WTC-1 weighed one-fifth of the total weight of the tower, or 100,000,000 pounds, and that the cross-sectional area in the direction of travel was 43264 sq ft (208 squared), that the drag coefficient was 0.7, and that the height of fall was 1,368 feet, we come up with a terminal velocity of 158 ft/second.

Your set of facts!

100,000,000 pounds…

Where did you get the weight of that “top bit”? That “top bit”… is it the top 1/5? Was the top 1/5 as heavy as the bottom 1/5? Or are you averaging your facts?

The lower sections were built with thicker, denser weight steel than the “Top Hat” or the upper third of the building just below the “Top Hat” section.

However so, you arrived at a number… and from THAT number, you calculated…

Please show me how you arrived at 100,000,000 pounds?

Or can we ASSUME that the top 1/5 was lighter than the base?
Would this change the velocity any?

benburch Says:

The standard estimate of the time of the tower to fall is 15 seconds. 15 seconds is NOWHERE near 11 seconds. Not even CLOSE to 11 seconds. In fact it is 36% more.

Link please

That is what I said. LONGER IN AIR.

Are you dense?

Assuming the top bit of WTC-1 weighed one-fifth of the total weight of the tower, or 100,000,000 pounds, and that the cross-sectional area in the direction of travel was 43264 sq ft (208 squared), that the drag coefficient was 0.7, and that the height of fall was 1,368 feet, we come up with a terminal velocity of 158 ft/second.

(Calculator is here; http://exploration.grc.nasa.gov/education/rocket/termvr.html )

Calculating the free-fall time with that terminal velocity we get a free fall time of 11 seconds.

The standard estimate of the time of the tower to fall is 15 seconds. 15 seconds is NOWHERE near 11 seconds. Not even CLOSE to 11 seconds. In fact it is 36% more.

So, I’ve just shot down the free fall argument.

And if you are gonna argue against it, you’d better find fault with that calculation. Anything else is the desperate attempt of a true believer resorting to the Gospel According To Jones.

-Ben

Mormans are racist, cult members founded in religious scams and crime in upstate NY!!! Their march to Utah was to out run the law!!!!!!!!

You’re wrong.
In a vacuum, it would have taken the towers 9.2 seconds to collapse in free fall, and it would take longer through air. I’m really surprised you didn’t know this. The towers took approximately 10 seconds to fall, which is a good estimate of free fall, when one allows for air friction. Hence they fell at roughly free fall.

The equation is not that hard.

Show us a link proving there was no power down. Here are some of mine:

http://69.28.73.17/thornarticles/powerdown.html
http://www.911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/339746/power_down_in_trade_centers_weekend_before_9_11/
http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/DemolitionWTC.htm

http://www.911blimp.net/prf_FreeFallPhysics.shtml

As for the kooks comment, I believe that there are just way too many things about 9/11 that don’t add up and more people are at least questioning the ‘official’ and inadequate investigation.

The WTC was designed to withstand a 707 fuel of fuel crashing into it. Not much smaller than a 757. Maybe if one tower fell that’s one thing, but 2 not withstanding the crash. WTC 7 is what puts me over to the top. And the fact that WTC7 contained offices of the FBI, Department of Defense, IRS (which contained prodigious amounts of corporate tax fraud, including Enron’s), US Secret Service, Securities & Exchange Commission (with more stock fraud records), and Citibank’s Salomon Smith Barney, the Mayor’s Office of Emergency Management and many other financial institutions. Remember all those put orders on Airline stocks prior to 9/11?

Is it odd that the FBI’s most wanted list has this to say about Osama? “Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. These attacks killed over 200 people. In addition, Bin Laden is a suspect in other terrorist attacks throughout the world.”

Wow, nothing about 9/11? Why?

And the towers were 35% slower than free-fall. You have to compute free fall IN AIR – go do it. The equations are not hard.

WTC7 did not fall in 7 seconds; The plaza-facing side was falling before it became obvious from the side the videos were taken from. You can clearly see that the penthouse structure disappears seconds before it looks like the building is coming down.

And Kira; Mark Roberts *is* an expert on 9/11 truth because he has taken the time to learn the actual truth. Anybody can be an expert on anything they set their minds to be an expert on. The JREF people are among the most honest folks I have ever run across; Utterly and completely ethical.

Sorry, folks, but the REAL story of 9/11 is exactly what Noam Chomsky says it is; Decades of US Imperialism coming home to roost, combined with an utter failure of government at all levels. (Not surprising when you consider that the government was being run by the stupidest man to ever hold that position.)

-Ben

And please identify what ‘demolition experts’ where in charge of removing the debris. Why would demolition experts be cleaning up/removing evidence?

And how coincidental that there was an exercise involving the scenario of highjacked planes hitting the WTC going on on 9/11. This confused air traffic controllers who asked, is this part of the exercise? Must have been masterful planning on the parts of the terrorists to know that would confuse them. Lucky FEMA was set up NYC on September 10th. Why?

Rudy Guliani being told the building would collapse, before it did?

Sorry, Ben, there are just way too many coincidences to not raise serious questions, especially when the buildings were designed to not only withstand sustained 120mph winds for 24 hours, to say nothing of a wayward jet from La Guardia, which is what it was designed to withstand.

Both Towers fell less than 2 hours of being hit. WTC 7 collapsed 8 hours 45 minutes after NOT being hit or burning intensely. 54 stories just collapse in 7 seconds?

A Presidential Daily Brief states “Bin Laden determined to Attack” US, planes may be used, WTC target. 35 days later, there is an attack of that very same nature?

The Project for the New American Century, members of which were at the core of this administration, stated regarding their desire to ‘transform’ (invade and occupy) Iraq and Iran, in the report “Rebuilding America’s Defenses” published in 2000, “…the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor”. Wow, not only later that year was a President ‘elected’ that shared these views, but less than 1 year from publishing the report, the very catalyzing event they sought occured, uniting the country. What are the odds?

Ben, whatever medication you are on, I would love some, because I would love to deny that something rotten has happened and the majority do not want to even contemplate that this could have happened.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/RIC111B.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/nov/01/afghanistan.terrorism

Yeah, that’s exactly the problem. You have answered nothing.

I had no idea you joined forces with the unethical James Randi bunch.

I’m sorry to hear this.