Gitmo Detainee’s Lawyer ‘Not Allowed To Tell Him’ He’s No Longer An ‘Enemy Combatant’
Gitmo Detainee’s Lawyer ‘Not Allowed To Tell Him’ He’s No Longer An ‘Enemy Combatant’
Nearly two weeks after the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that detainees held at Guantánamo Bay have the right to habeas corpus and can thus challenge their detention in civilian courts, a U.S. Court of Appeals dealt another blow to the Bush administration’s detention policy.
The appeals court ruled that the Pentagon improperly designated Huzaifa Parhat, an ethnic Uighur Chinese national, an “enemy combatant” after being swept up by the U.S. military in Afghanistan in 2001 and then sent to Guantánamo Bay, where he has been held since.
Despite the ruling, Parhat has yet to see any of its benefits. In fact, he doesn’t even know about it. Parhat’s lawyer told CBC radio’s As It Happens last night that Parhat is currently being held in solitary confinement and “has no idea” the appeals court ruled in his favor because, he added, “I’m not allowed to tell him”:
DEREK STOFFEL, CBC HOST: Mr. Willett, what’s your client’s reaction to this ruling?
SABIN WILLETT (PARHAT’S LAWYER): Boy what a great question that is because my client doesn’t know about this ruling because I’m not allowed to tell him. [...] He’s sitting in solitary confinement today. He has no idea what’s happened as far as I know.
Listen here:
Indeed, it is unclear what the appeals court’s ruling actually means for Parhat. The New York Times noted that the U.S. “said it will not return Uighur detainees to China because of concerns about their treatment at the hands of the Chinese government, which views them as terrorists.” Thus, as another one of Parhat’s lawyers noted, the “court victory may not mean freedom for him.”
For now, Willett said that “we’re going to file a motion with a judge to order them to let us call him on the phone and take him out of solitary confinement.” He added, “We’ve got a man in solitary confinement that they’ve got no authority to hold at all. Its unbelievable.”
Transcript:
DEREK STOFFEL, CBC HOST: Mr. Willett, what’s your client’s reaction to this ruling?
SABIN WILLETT (Parhat’s Lawyer): Boy what a great question that is because my client doesn’t know about this ruling because I’m not allowed to tell him.
STOFFEL: He doesn’t know?
WILLETT: We’ve asked — the first thing we did was ask the government for permission to make a phone call and they haven’t given it to us. Now we have a way to send him a letter that goes through clearence and we’ve sent it and maybe in three weeks he’ll get it.
He’s sitting in solitary confinement today. He has no idea what’s happened as far as I know.
STOFFEL: Well let me ask you then, what’s your reaction to this ruling?
WILLETT: Well I’m thrilled except for the constant vexation of the inablitiy to bring this thing to a real and human close. Huzaifa Parhat
has now been determined by about as conservative a court as there is not to be an enemy combatant — this is what we’ve been saying for years — and yet I can’t get him out of solitary confinement in the hands of my own government. So it is a frustrating but somewhat thrilling moment for us. [...]STOFFEL: I suppose the next thing you need to do is to let your client know what’s happened.
WILLETT: Thats what we’re trying to do. I mean, we’ve sent him a letter. We’re going to file a motion with a judge to order them to let us call him on the phone and take him out of solitary confinement. I mean we’ve got a man in solitary confinement that they’ve got no authority to hold at all. Its unbelievable. So we’ll be in court pretty soon, trying to get some more relief but it was a good day to get that notice.
Sort Comments By: Top Rated | Date
196 Responses to “Gitmo Detainee’s Lawyer ‘Not Allowed To Tell Him’ He’s No Longer An ‘Enemy Combatant’”
Topic Cloud
ArchivesBlog Roll
The New York Times noted that the U.S. “said it will not return Uighur detainees to China because of concerns about their treatment at the hands of the Chinese government, which views them as terrorists.”
Yeah , I'm sure he's just thanking his lucky stars right now at the treatment he's currently receiving..............
June 25th, 2008 at 12:10 pmthe U.S. “said it will not return Uighur detainees to China because of concerns about their treatment at the hands of the Chinese government, which views them as terrorists.”
You mean, like they might imprison him indefinitely with no charges filed? Even put him in solitary confinement?
Yeah, that would be bad.
We'd better keep him here so we can be sure that doesn't happen to him.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:11 pmThis story should be front page of every paper in America. Think about why the worlds perception of the US is in the dumper.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:14 pmI have been at odds with most US administrations in my lifetime. But I had a core belief that there was a line that the worst would never cross. This chapter is one of many that did that. I now believe we've forfeited our right to criticize any government for human rights abuse.
I can quickly think of a couple of jerkoffs that deserve inhabiting that cell, can you?
And, as McMetal & Ralph state above, how could China treat them any worse than we already have?
Bush 'Gitmo' Cheney should be nervous; the walls are closing in...
June 25th, 2008 at 12:15 pmWe've become a nation of War Criminals.....just saying.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:18 pmThe w administration reaction to the ruling was "SO?"
June 25th, 2008 at 12:19 pmLesson here is that next time the marines should simply shoot enemy combatants dead on the battle field and leave them for the crows to pick at. This is whole situation of extending US Constitutional rights to captured foreign enemy terrorists is utterly ridiculous. The US constitution is obviously only intended for Americans, not foreign terrorists. Well, judges are just people, and they are often quite wrong.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:19 pmWhat is with the Bush Administration? We invade Iraq to stop Saddam Hussein from torturing & killing his own people; so that WE can now torture and kill the Iraqi people. And we have to keep people imprisoned & torture them, so that their own contry can't have that privilege? Are we now taking upon ourselves all the sins of the world in order to, in some perverse way, redeem every other country and save them from their worst selves? This is bizarre......
June 25th, 2008 at 12:25 pmI can't believe this F*** S***
Maybe if we were living under a Stalinist regime, I could believe that such things happen, but come on. We live in a country of laws
June 25th, 2008 at 12:26 pmTom Hanks' movie about being stranded in an airport was based on fact - I can't wait for the one to come out about how some 'terrorist' was stranded in solitary confinement for no reason other than someone turned them in for a reward. Serious black humor there.
Worse than that is the true situation of Bush and his administration so totally mishandling the 'war' on terror that we've become an international joke (albeit a poor one).
June 25th, 2008 at 12:27 pmI'm first in line to rip the conditions at Gitmo, the B-Team's conduct of the war in Iraq, etc.
That being said, and not to defend the B-Team, but what SHOULD be done with people like him?
I don't think that there is any question that he was in Afghanistan to fight with the Taliban. That's where he was captured.
Maybe the solution is to simply make him officially a POW, with the full protections granted POWs.
But let's not fool ourselves -- this guy wanted to kill Americans. Let's not get too weepy. Our government, which should have treated him humanely as a POW, failed. But that doesn't make this guy a good guy and sure as heck doesn't mean he should be allowed to go free.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:27 pm.
So the US CAN hold you for an undetermined time, refuse you counsel... even when you're NOT guilty?
.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:28 pmMr.NiceGuy Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lesson here is that next time the marines should simply shoot enemy combatants dead on the battle field and leave them for the crows to pick at. This is whole situation of extending US Constitutional rights to captured foreign enemy terrorists is utterly ridiculous. The US constitution is obviously only intended for Americans, not foreign terrorists. Well, judges are just people, and they are often quite wrong.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Huzaifa Parhat was captured in Pakistan , you nitwit ; since when has the entire country of Pakistan been quantified as a "battlefield" , you stupid shit ?
June 25th, 2008 at 12:28 pmI can't believe that we built a gulag...If you told me 10 years ago that we would build a prison, better yet, an internment camp, I would have called you crazy
June 25th, 2008 at 12:28 pmIt appears that Mr.NiceGuy has figured out that the whole "Concern Troll" thing didn't look good on him after all. He's decided to go "all-in" with BushCo.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:28 pmAmong the many, many concepts rog fails to grasp is the universal applicability of judicial principles.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:29 pmSkeeter1 Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m first in line to rip the conditions at Gitmo, the B-Team’s conduct of the war in Iraq, etc.
That being said, and not to defend the B-Team, but what SHOULD be done with people like him?
I don’t think that there is any question that he was in Afghanistan to fight with the Taliban. That’s where he was captured.
Maybe the solution is to simply make him officially a POW, with the full protections granted POWs.
But let’s not fool ourselves — this guy wanted to kill Americans. Let’s not get too weepy. Our government, which should have treated him humanely as a POW, failed. But that doesn’t make this guy a good guy and sure as heck doesn’t mean he should be allowed to go free.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
The only one here being fooled , is yourself ; Parhat was captured in Pakistan , not Afghanistan..............
June 25th, 2008 at 12:30 pmThus, as another one of Parhat’s lawyers noted, the “court victory may not mean freedom for him.”
They never quit do they? It makes absolutely no difference to them what the law says they do whatever they want anyway.
Mr. NiceGuy said:
The US constitution is obviously only intended for Americans, not foreign terrorists. Well, judges are just people, and they are often quite wrong.
Aside from where the Constitution actually applies, and regardless of whether you think the judges are wrong, their rulings still apply. Or do you think you can willfuly break any law you desire because you don't agree with it.
http://progressiveworldreview.com
June 25th, 2008 at 12:31 pmSkeeter1 Fools himself.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:31 pmfunny, yet really sad
June 25th, 2008 at 12:31 pmFollowing this thread's troll "logic" McCain would have been shot on the spot and not here today to shuffle his way through this election. Hmmmmm.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:31 pmMCMETAL,
Did you bother to read the article before you started jerking your knee?
It clearly says he was captured in Afghanistan.
"The appeals court ruled that the Pentagon improperly designated Huzaifa Parhat, an ethnic Uighur Chinese national, an “enemy combatant” after being swept up by the U.S. military in Afghanistan in 2001 and then sent to Guantánamo Bay, where he has been held since."
June 25th, 2008 at 12:31 pm> The US constitution is obviously
> only intended for Americans
Please offer us your best legal explanation as to why this is the correct constitutional interpretation.
ps. how do we know everyone they claim are terrorists are really terrorists? what if they are as wrong about that just like they were wrong about how they knew where saddams wmd was?
June 25th, 2008 at 12:31 pmIs that a new euphemism for "shaking the devil off"?
June 25th, 2008 at 12:32 pmanyone seen the footage of Mike in Philly talking about Real Democracy ?
June 25th, 2008 at 12:32 pmcan you believe the audacity of these a**holes
June 25th, 2008 at 12:33 pmRalph,
June 25th, 2008 at 12:35 pmI thought that devil was the last drop...
The rethugs, beginning with reagan, have no problem with killing and torture for all. It was just that it took 9/11 to give them the excuse to move it to all situations. They had no real dislike for Saddam except that he was getting away with things that they wanted to be able to do without constraint. They used removing him for an excuse to move into the torture game more openly. This allows them to hold torture over the heads of any dissidents. Actually the Feds don't have to do it, they simply allow the locals a lot of leeway.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:35 pmIt appears that Parhat was in fact captured in Afghanistan, but he was not there to, as Skeeter claims, fight with the Taliban.
From a memo released in response to a habeas corpus request in the case:
He claims to have fled the Xinjiang province, China to train in Afghanistan and return to fight Chinese oppression of ethnic Uighurs.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:37 pmMr.NiceGuy Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MCMETAL,
Did you bother to read the article before you started jerking your knee?
It clearly says he was captured in Afghanistan.
“The appeals court ruled that the Pentagon improperly designated Huzaifa Parhat, an ethnic Uighur Chinese national, an “enemy combatant” after being swept up by the U.S. military in Afghanistan in 2001 and then sent to Guantánamo Bay, where he has been held since.”
June 25th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
Did you bother to pause to consider how foolish I have made you look before posting the stupid shit you did above ? (I would guess you didn't , as usual)
Summary of Evidence memo
A Summary of Evidence memo was prepared for Hozaifa Parhat's Combatant Status Review Tribunal, on 8 November 2004.The memo listed the following allegations against him:
a. The detainee is associated with al Qaida and the Taliban:
The detainee departed China in May 2001 and traveled to Tora Bora, Afghanistan via Pakistan.
The detainee received training on the Kalashnikov AK-47 assault rifle and other light weapons at a Uighur training camp in Tora Bora, Afghanistan.
The training camp was provided to the Uighurs by the Taliban.
The East Turkistan Islamic Movement (ETIM) operated facilities in the Tora Bora region of Afghanistan in which Uighur expatriates underwent small arms training. The camps were funded by Bin Laden and the Taliban.
The detainee lived at the Uighur training camp from early June through mid-October 2001 until the United States bombing campaign that destroyed the camp.
b. The detainee participated in military operations against the United States and its coalition partners.
The detainee stated that the Uighur training camp was destroyed during the first night of the United States bombing campaign.
The detainee fled along with others farther into the mountains of Tora Bora with the initiation of the United States bombing campaign.
The detainee was captured in Pakistan fleeing Afghanistan with other Uighur and Arab personnel in 2001.
http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Huzaifa_Parhat
See the last line , jackass , before the link addy ?
Pipe down , junior , before I internet slap you around again...........
June 25th, 2008 at 12:37 pm.
When will Loyal Christians(R) learn it was Christ that was tortured?
.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:37 pmUm... not if the judicial ruling applies to their circumstances, as this one does.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:38 pmNicely done, MCM. I stand corrected. Will Skeeter so stand as well?
June 25th, 2008 at 12:40 pmMCMETAL,
June 25th, 2008 at 12:41 pmIt is not my fault that TP.org can't get its facts straight. There's no reason for you to be all rude and angry with me.
No Child Left Behind
Peacekeeper Missle
Protect America Act
Mr.NiceGuy
These people are good at opposite-naming, aren't they?!
June 25th, 2008 at 12:42 pmMr.NiceGuy Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MCMETAL,
It is not my fault that TP.org can’t get its facts straight. There’s no reason for you to be all rude and angry with me.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
Sure there is
We do not get to decide that the entire world is our "battlefield" ; Congress is the only ruling body that can declare "war" , which legally creates a chosen "battlefield".
We are not currently at "war" with Afghanistan ; and yet , you're suggesting US troops arbitrarily shoot and kill everyone anyway.
What kind of a weasel are you ?
June 25th, 2008 at 12:44 pmMoments later...
Mr.NiceGuy plays the victim card very smoothly, but unfortunately, it runs into the buzz saw of previous statements.
hate it when that happens.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:46 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
"Nicely done, MCM. I stand corrected. Will Skeeter so stand as well?"
For what?
Just because the B-Team was wrong to treat the person as it did, doesn't mean that the person should go free.
Too many on the left really have their heads in tne sand. Wake up. There are people in the world who want to kill Americans, and Americans need to do something to stop them. The fact that the conduct by the B-Team was a disgrace doesn't make America's enemies better. It just makes the B-Team bad.
I stand on my prior statement: This guy was in Afghanistan to train to be a terrorist. He needs to be locked up.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:47 pm>There called extra judicial prisoners…
let me know where in the constitution it talks about these folks, ok? Also, can you give me a definition of "victory over terror" that would bring an end to this "war"?
June 25th, 2008 at 12:50 pm> This guy was in Afghanistan
> to train to be a terrorist.
Do you have so little faith in our justice system that you dont think anyone could actually PROVE that, with like, facts n stuff??
June 25th, 2008 at 12:52 pmQuestion:
June 25th, 2008 at 12:52 pmHow much do they pay trolls now a days?
Skeeter? rogerse? Darryll? Mr. Guy?
Including imprisoning people who weren't training to kill Americans?
Good plan.
The ol' Republican "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" Plan, huh? Brilliant. That won't make terrorism worse. Nosireee.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:52 pm>There are people in the world who want to kill Americans
and most of them ARE americans.
you have any idea how many americans die by the hand of their fellow american every week? dare to guess?
June 25th, 2008 at 12:53 pmCJ,
You ask: "Also, can you give me a definition of “victory over terror” that would bring an end to this “war”?"
How about "When people stop trying to blow up Americans?"
There is a difference between "War in Iraq" and "War against terror." One needs to end now, and for the other, we are in it for the long term.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:53 pmSkeeter,
June 25th, 2008 at 12:54 pmI hate getting stung by bees...
When should I take my hand out of the nest?
Skeeter1 Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralph the wonder llama Says:
“Nicely done, MCM. I stand corrected. Will Skeeter so stand as well?”
For what?
Just because the B-Team was wrong to treat the person as it did, doesn’t mean that the person should go free.
Too many on the left really have their heads in tne sand. Wake up. There are people in the world who want to kill Americans, and Americans need to do something to stop them. The fact that the conduct by the B-Team was a disgrace doesn’t make America’s enemies better. It just makes the B-Team bad.
I stand on my prior statement: This guy was in Afghanistan to train to be a terrorist. He needs to be locked up.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
You believe that the urge to kill Americans is going to be extinguished by idiotic statements like the ones you have just made ?
"Wake up" ?
I was raised in a Muslim household , you moron ; you have no idea what the hell you're babbling about , let alone someone that is from the opposite side of the planet , both geographically and spiritually , is all about.
You cannot deem anyone that this garbage and untrustworthy administration has deemed an "enemy combatant" , as anywhere near factual or even acceptable ; they have proven nothing other than their insatiable desire to spout ridiculous stereotypes , propoganda and outright lies..........
Now , go stand with the other retarded 19% of the American populace.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:55 pmOur best intelligence says that they don't get paid a daily rate -- when they tried that the trolls only worked for about fifteen minutes in eight hours and spent the rest of the time polishing off the donuts in the break room, playing Second Life and trolling craigslist for dates.
Now they're paid piecework. 10 cents a post is our best estimate.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:55 pmBush Premise: The terrorists monitor our political discourse
Bush Premise: A terrorist attack helps the Republicans win
Bush Premise: Terrorists should be locked away without trial
Fact: Skeeter1 and Mr.NiceGuy are monitoring ThinkProgress
Fact: Skeeter and Mr.NiceGuy want to help the Republicans win
Conclusion: Skeeter1 and Mr.NiceGuy are terrorists
Conclusion: Skeeter1 and Mr.Niceguy should be sent to Gitmo
I stand by my conclusions unless Skeeter1 and Mr.NiceGuy can prove their innocence...even when I now refuse to read anything more they post.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:55 pmLlama,
June 25th, 2008 at 12:56 pmEither MCMETAL or TP.org is wrong. One of them doesn't have their facts straight.
Mr.NiceGuy Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Llama,
Either MCMETAL or TP.org is wrong. One of them doesn’t have their facts straight.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Well , that still leaves either myself or TP about 1,100 errors behind the Chimpy administration............
June 25th, 2008 at 12:58 pmSkeeter,
Is it terrorism when Americans blow up your neighborhood?
Is it terrorism when Americans break down your door?
Is it terrorism when Americans kidnap your father?
Is it terrorism when Americans torture?
Is it terrorism when Americans overthrow your way of life?
Is it terrorism when America does it?
...just asking.
June 25th, 2008 at 12:58 pmMax --
YOU ARE BLAMING AMERICANS FOR TERRORISM???
IT IS OUR FAULT THAT BIN LADEN ATTACKED US?
Please tell me you are not an American. What a disgace!
MCM:
Why was the guy there? Was he a tourist, seeing the sights? Or was he there to learn how to kill people?
And Ralph: You are a coward. A bit of debate is going to destroy you? Pathetic. Stand up and debate back. If I'm wrong, point it out. But stop crying "TROLL" just because somebody tells you that you are wrong.
And I always thought that all the uneducated twerps were on teh right . . .
June 25th, 2008 at 1:01 pmSome of you extreme lefties are so brilliant and its clear you have all the answers. Yes, of course it makes perfect sense to lawyer-up the enemy combatants captured in battle. Actually, let's get them OJ's lawyers. After all, we would be ridiculous not to extend constitutional rights to the enemy. Their VIP treatment is far more important than keeping Americans safe. No, its really brilliant.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:01 pmSkeeter1 Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MCM:
Why was the guy there? Was he a tourist, seeing the sights? Or was he there to learn how to kill people?
June 25th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
Yes , but which "people" ?
Americans ?
No............And there is no evidence that proves otherwise.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:03 pmWell, since MCM linked to an extensive report on the case that specifically said where the detainee was captured, I would lean on that and judge that TP has its facts wrong, since its statement was far more general.
Either way, it appears that Parhat was training to fight the Chinese government, not Americans. You can say that "terrorists are terrorists" but our record over the past twenty-five years has been so clear-cut. And, you know, even Pat Buchanan has asked "Is it then true that "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"? "
Of course, that was Pre-9/11, and 9/11 changed everything, right?
June 25th, 2008 at 1:05 pmMr.NiceGuy Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some of you extreme lefties are so brilliant and its clear you have all the answers. Yes, of course it makes perfect sense to lawyer-up the enemy combatants captured in battle. Actually, let’s get them OJ’s lawyers. After all, we would be ridiculous not to extend constitutional rights to the enemy. Their VIP treatment is far more important than keeping Americans safe. No, its really brilliant.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
If those on the "right" were so blindingly brilliant when it came to protecting Americans from terrorist attacks and death , how come more Americans have perished during GOP presidencies than Democratic ones as a result of terrorist activities ?
June 25th, 2008 at 1:05 pmMCMetal,
June 25th, 2008 at 1:09 pmMore Americans perished during GOP presidencies. You mean like during the civil war when Lincoln was president and the democrats were the party of slavery. Yes I see your point.
Skeeter1 Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And I always thought that all the uneducated twerps were on teh right . . .
June 25th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
They've got you , don't they ?
June 25th, 2008 at 1:09 pmMethinks Skeeter is a little unstable this morning...
Can you point out where I called you a troll?
Or where I intimated that "a bit of debate" is going to "destroy" me?
'Cause your cry of "coward" seems to depend on these assertions being real. Otherwise, it just sounds like standard-order projection to me.
Thanks.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:09 pmMr.NiceGuy Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MCMetal,
More Americans perished during GOP presidencies. You mean like during the civil war when Lincoln was president and the democrats were the party of slavery. Yes I see your point.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
What does our Civil War have to do with illegally invading a sovereign nation , arbitrarily arresting anyone for any concocted reason , and then torturing them and keeping them locked up indefinitely ?
BTW
Those racists who were Dems were "Dixiecrats" ; who have since joined your beloved GOP , skid mark..............
June 25th, 2008 at 1:12 pmMNG confuses "VIP" treatment with simple "P" treatment.
Somehow, treating detainees like People is the same as treating them like Very Important People.
But it's true, all of that "proving guilt" crap is a big inconvenience. So what if they're guilty of nothing more than having bad blood with a neighbor who wanted to collect a bounty? They're brown, right? Isn't that enough reason to dehumanize them? THEY WERE IN THE WRONG PLACE. That should be reason enough to torture them and imprison them indefinitely without any recourse.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:15 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
Max-1 Says:
Question:
How much do they pay trolls now a days?
Skeeter? rogerse? Darryll? Mr. Guy?
June 25th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Our best intelligence says that they don’t get paid a daily rate — when they tried that the trolls only worked for about fifteen minutes in eight hours and spent the rest of the time polishing off the donuts in the break room, playing Second Life and trolling craigslist for dates.
Now they’re paid piecework. 10 cents a post is our best estimate.
And it has been off-shored, so the work we are seeing here is another result of the BushCo outsourcing policy.
Also shows in the quality of the work. My initial guess is is was off-shored to Crawford, TX.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:16 pmskeerer,
comprehension is not your strong suit... eh?
Where did I say:
Nope, never said it, but you did.
Look, exceptionalism is a disease that permits immoral behavior to become justified through a mind set of superiority. But I have news for you, Americans are not superior on the world's stage in the realm of terrorism when the policy is about echoing the same tactics back at who we seek to destroy. It does not make for a strong set of principles or strong character, both for the people or the Nation.
You don't see the world laughing at us?
Oh, that's right, you're an exception... NO?
.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:17 pmSome people think 911 was a false flag incident to give the fascists in this country a chance to colonize an oil colony (Iraq) and to build a oil pipeline thru Afganistan. It was all about giving fascists free reign.
Since these two things are in the process of happening, maybe they are correct.
After all torturing prisoners, ignoring provisions in the Constitution and opting out of the Geneva Conventions are fascist ideals.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:17 pmSo, Max, you claim now that Americans are not the cause of terrorism?
Is somebody posting under your name? If not, perhaps you can explain this comment?
"Max-1 Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skeeter,
Is it terrorism when Americans blow up your neighborhood?
Is it terrorism when Americans break down your door?
Is it terrorism when Americans kidnap your father?
Is it terrorism when Americans torture?
Is it terrorism when Americans overthrow your way of life?
Is it terrorism when America does it?
…just asking."
Or perhaps this one:
Max-1 Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skeeter,
I hate getting stung by bees…
When should I take my hand out of the nest?"
What DID you mean, if you didn't mean that American deserved it?
June 25th, 2008 at 1:20 pmSheesh
These GOP/Chimpy tools really need to be slapped and then deported.............
June 25th, 2008 at 1:22 pmctcadguy Says:
After all torturing prisoners, ignoring provisions in the Constitution and opting out of the Geneva Conventions are fascist ideals.
And since this now puts all our troops (and foreign traveling civilians) at greater risk to the same or worse treatment, anyone who supports this behavior by the US government is a traitor by definition.
I am glad I did my military service in Vietnam, when we still generally adhered to the Geneva Convention, the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:23 pmJeebus H. Christ!
You do NOT imprison someone INDEFINITELY because you THINK they are “enemy combatants”, terrorists or whatever the hell you want to call them!
Civilized societies don’t do these kind of things!
What the FU(K have we become?!?!
-Livid Ashamed-to-be-an-American Lib
June 25th, 2008 at 1:24 pmMetal,
Dixiecrats were indeed democrats and you are unable to change the historical fact that democrats were the party of slavery. Not to mention the party of Jim Crow. Trust me, you don't want to go there. This is a huge stain on the democrat party that will never fade.
Yes, it has nothing to do with extending US constitutional rights to enemy combatant terrorists. Although neither did any of your silly comments regarding the americans dying in greater numbers during GOP presidencies. Do you know how many american's died during WW2, Korea, Vietnam? All those wars started during democrat presidencies. You really make no sense.
Btw, for the millionth time, I'm not part of the GOP. So your insults are misguided.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:25 pmOk, so let me get this straight: We will not release a guy who we have been unjustifiably treating as a terrorist for several years because if we send him back to China, they might treat him as a terrorist. Is that about it?
Feh.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:30 pmMr.NiceGuy Says:
Metal,
Dixiecrats were indeed democrats and you are unable to change the historical fact that democrats were the party of slavery. Not to mention the party of Jim Crow. Trust me, you don’t want to go there. This is a huge stain on the democrat party that will never fade.
And guess what; the Democratic Party has changed since then. They are now on the side of social decency and human rights. While the Repugs (Which, of course, you don't support) has become the party of terrorists, imperialists and hypocritical war-mongers, run by the NeoCons and are now the Spend and Indebt experts.
So, tigers DO change their stripes. Sometimes for the better, and then as BushCo has shown, not so much.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:30 pmMr.NiceGuy Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Metal,
Dixiecrats were indeed democrats and you are unable to change the historical fact that democrats were the party of slavery. Not to mention the party of Jim Crow. Trust me, you don’t want to go there. This is a huge stain on the democrat party that will never fade.
Yes, it has nothing to do with extending US constitutional rights to enemy combatant terrorists. Although neither did any of your silly comments regarding the americans dying in greater numbers during GOP presidencies. Do you know how many american’s died during WW2, Korea, Vietnam? All those wars started during democrat presidencies. You really make no sense.
Btw, for the millionth time, I’m not part of the GOP. So your insults are misguided.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
The horseshit GOP is now known as the party of racism and intolerance ; something you nor anyone else can or would want to change , because it is fact.
And your US history knowledge is the equivalent of your political acumen ; Vietnam started under a GOP president , you dummy.
As for my "silly comments" , only 19% of the most stupid Americans , including yourself (regardless how much you want to claim otherwise) , DO NOT BELIEVE IN THIS GARBAGE AND IMBECILIC PRESIDENT , nor his definition of what does or does not constitute an "enemy combatant terrorist: ; his track record proves he is an unintelligible imbecile and habitual liar and failure.
You are nowhere near on target in any of your posts ; please refrain from trying to critique mine.
You're clearly out of your league..............
June 25th, 2008 at 1:36 pmIt's sad when GOP apologists have to reach back forty years or more in order to impugn their rivals.
It's also funny, though, because this particular "Democrats were racist way back then!" theme can only bite them in the butt because the immediate aftermath of LBJ's signing Civil Rights legislation was to push those racist southern Democrats into the Republican Party, where they continue to find a comfortable home today.
One wonders why wingnuts keep throwing this one at the wall.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:37 pmLividLib Says:
Jeebus H. Christ!
You do NOT imprison someone INDEFINITELY because you THINK they are “enemy combatants”, terrorists or whatever the hell you want to call them!
Civilized societies don’t do these kind of things!
What the FU(K have we become?!?!
Unfortunately, this administration has become Nazi-like, and the sheeple (ditto heads) have become it's followers.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:38 pmThis is racial profiling, pure and simple. If you ain't white and (c)hristian, then you are the enemy!!!
And yet, 23% think it's the right thing to do. And a majority of those are (c)hristians. How is that possible?
skeeter,
you can quote me all you want...
Where did I say America deserves this?
You're putting words in my mouth...
Joe Biden
MTP 06/22/08
"You're entitled to your own opinion, just not your own facts."
He was addressing Sissy Grahm at the time, but heed his words... mmmm K?
.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:40 pmMr.NiceGuy Says:
"Yes, of course it makes perfect sense to lawyer-up the enemy combatants captured in battle. After all, we would be ridiculous not to extend constitutional rights to the enemy."
I'm sure that you are aware that the Bush Administration can label an American Citizen as an "enemy combatant". Do you also no longer believe that American citizens deserve Constitutional protection?
"Their VIP treatment is far more important than keeping Americans safe."
Their treatment is what makes America, America and you obviously want to take that away because you are scared of whoever the President tells you to be afraid of.
You are putting your personal safety above what makes us who we are and the founding fathers would be so utterly ashamed of your cowardice. Why do you hate America so much that you would rather her become the terrorist she portends to fight than maintain her status as a beacon of freedom and liberty throughout the world?
June 25th, 2008 at 1:41 pmMr.NiceGuy(and Not a GOP Guy),
Just a little bit of history from your misguided post:
The United States of America, with a Democrat as president, did not start WWII.
WWII started with this little country in Europe. Maybe you've heard of it. It's called Germany.
The United States (whether right or wrong) did not become an active participant in WWII until a little event propelled us into full war. It's called Pearl Harbor.
But please, continue to construe facts, and play the victim. It's so becoming of you.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:42 pmMax,
June 25th, 2008 at 1:43 pmI note your non-response.
Enlighten me.
What did you mean by those posts?
MCMETAL,
June 25th, 2008 at 1:44 pmJFK was president when the vietnam conflict started. Just so you know.
OH, and Mr. Nice (but not a GOP) guy,
June 25th, 2008 at 1:45 pmplease feel free to ignore the fact that when the Democrats actually fought for civil rights, the Dixiecrats abandoned the party.
Oh wait, too late.
My bad.
Mr.NiceGuy,
June 25th, 2008 at 1:45 pmThat's not true. It escalated under JFK, but it started with Ike. Read some history.
DRxJ asks:
Because they forgot it was Christ that was tortured and that it was Barabas that was set free.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:47 pmMr.NiceGuy Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MCMETAL,
JFK was president when the vietnam conflict started. Just so you know.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
Just so I know what ? Your version ?
The Vietnam War, also known as the Second Indochina War, the Vietnam Conflict, and, in Vietnam, the American War, occurred from March 1959 to April 30, 1975.
Tough for Kennedy to be president when it 1st started , seeing as how he wasn't even elected until 8 months later ........Feel stupid yet ?
You should.........I warned you that you were way out of your league.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:48 pmLlama,
June 25th, 2008 at 1:49 pmAgain, I'm not a republican. That party obviously has its problems just like the democrat party obviously has theirs. Not sure why you think that you are scoring debate points when you trash the republicans.
Well, thank goodness Nixon came along and ended it all, right?
June 25th, 2008 at 1:49 pmMr.NiceGuy Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Llama,
Again, I’m not a republican.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Yeah , you're just a moron.................
June 25th, 2008 at 1:51 pmMCMETAL,
June 25th, 2008 at 1:52 pmI know you are clearly quite impressed with yourself, however I'm not at all. You've demonstrated that your are juvenile, rude, and an angry know-it-all with no tolerance for alternative views. You need to respect other posters. By the way, your revisionist history is slightly amusing.
Mr.NiceButNotARepublicanGuy,
(YAWN)
He comes in here, attacks, belittles progressives, then proudly proclaims, "I'm not a GOP!"
Sorry, little dude, I gotta call Bull$hit on that one!!!!
June 25th, 2008 at 1:53 pmBy the way, your revisionist history is slightly amusing.
Snort!
June 25th, 2008 at 1:54 pmReality check:
The president of South Vietnam, Ngo Dinh Diem, declined to hold elections. This called into question the United States' commitment to democracy in the region, but also raised questions about the legitimacy of any election held in the communist-run North. President Dwight D. Eisenhower expressed U.S. fears when he wrote that, in 1954, “80 per cent of the population would have voted for the Communist Ho Chi Minh” over Emperor Bao Dai.[24][25] However, this wide popularity was expressed before Ho's disastrous land reform program and a peasant revolt in Ho's home province which was bloodily suppressed.
The cornerstone of U.S. policy was the Domino Theory. This argued that if South Vietnam fell to communist forces, then all of South East Asia would follow. Popularized by the Eisenhower Administration,[26] some argued that if communism spread unchecked, it would follow them home by first reaching Hawaii and follow to the West Coast of the United States. It was better, therefore, to fight communism in Asia, rather than on American soil
* * * * *
The Eisenhower administration began giving Diem financial support and began training an army in Vietnam loyal to Diem.
http://www.fsmitha.com/h2/ch26.htm
June 25th, 2008 at 1:55 pmSkeeter,
I'm asking rhetorical questions that seem to skip off the top of your head.
Let me be clear...
When the policy states, walk like a duck...
When the policy states, quack like a duck...
When the policy states, dawn feathers...
IT IS THEN A DUCK!
If ONLY terrorists blow up innocent people in neighborhoods, what is it called when America engages in the very same act?
If ONLY terrorists torture prisoners and kill them, what is it called when America does it?
When the policy is about justifying these exceptions, then the policy is to allow America to act like terrorists. Doesn't mean WE are, just that the policy ALLOWS for such actions when and if it can be called by another name. Thus, harsh interrogation techniques... isn't torture because the policy says so... an EXCEPTION granted... doesn't change the results though.
When your Bushie Boy(s) and girlz are wanted people... you'll understand.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:55 pmDRxJ,
June 25th, 2008 at 1:55 pmCall what you like. I'm not a republican and I strongly disagree with neocon attitudes. So many assumptions are made here. I'm actually an independent and I would have no problems voting for a Truman or a JFK democrat, although the party is far too left to allow for those types of voices these days.
Mr.NiceGuy Says:
"I’m not a republican. That party obviously has its problems"
Like what?
June 25th, 2008 at 1:56 pmMNG, no one is buying your concern troll act anymore.
No one who is not a Republican (or at least a "conservative") calls it the "democrat party".
You're not fooling anyone.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:57 pmMr.NiceGuy Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MCMETAL,
I know you are clearly quite impressed with yourself, however I’m not at all. You’ve demonstrated that your are juvenile, rude, and an angry know-it-all with no tolerance for alternative views. You need to respect other posters. By the way, your revisionist history is slightly amusing.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
Who gives a shit what you're impressed by ?
You're posting outright lies about my "revisionist history" , when everyone here has told you that you are categorically WRONG , and that VIETNAM 1ST STARTED UNDER A GOP PRESIDENT.
I don't need to "respect" some sorry little pissant who cannot admit when he's clearly wrong , and then tries to lie about it by calling the other person a name that clearly does not fit . That , little guy , is the height of juvenile behavior.........Respect is earned ; you don't even have a Confederate penny , yet.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:57 pmMr.NotARepublicanGuy Says:
MCMETAL,
I know you are clearly quite impressed with yourself, however I’m not at all. You’ve demonstrated that your are juvenile, rude, and an angry know-it-all with no tolerance for alternative views. You need to respect other posters.
Just because someone confronts you and your beliefs does not make him a narcissist.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:58 pmYes MCMETAL can be juvenile, rude, and angry, but who can blame him for the last 7 and 1/2 years. And it appears he does know more than you.
As for respect, that's something you earn, not demand.
But, you have played the concern, not a republican, victim troll to a "T"( as in tea bag).
and I would have no problems voting for a Truman or a JFK democrat, although the party is far too left to allow for those types of voices these days.
Double snort!
June 25th, 2008 at 1:58 pm.
Joe Biden
MTP 06/22/08
To: Sissy Grahm...
"You're entitled to your own opinions, just not your own set of facts."
Trolls, take heed. Would ya?
June 25th, 2008 at 1:59 pmNot fooling anyone.
Except possibly yourself.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:59 pmDRxJ Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes MCMETAL can be juvenile, rude, and angry, but who can blame him for the last 7 and 1/2 years. And it appears he does know more than you.
June 25th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
Shit
The same can be said about the average pet rock compared to that chump.............
June 25th, 2008 at 2:01 pmMr.NiceGuy Says:
MCMETAL,
I know you are clearly quite impressed with yourself, however I’m not at all. You’ve demonstrated that your are juvenile, rude, and an angry know-it-all with no tolerance for alternative views. You need to respect other posters. By the way, your revisionist history is slightly amusing.
I know that McMetal needs absolutely no backup from me, but it is clear to most of us that you are way out of your league here at TP. McMetal has been a very good blogger as long as I have been reading TP - almost 4 years. You, a right side newbie, whose only goal is to distract thoughtful bloggers from their comments and points of view. You do use the GOP playbook of projection quite well, but it is apparent to all that you earn your keep by wasting our time.
Your side is losing, and your world is crumbling around you. Your little king has no clothes and history will reflect he and his supporters as enablers of the worst kind. Frankly, you offer nothing which would make us want to enage in dialog with you; so you deserve the derision and dis-regard.
Don't cry here about bad service; go to another restaurant if you don't like what's on the menu. I'll give you busfare.
June 25th, 2008 at 2:02 pmMax,
Let me get this right.
You are not claiming that America deserved it because we are America. You are claiming that America deserved 9/11 because it engaged in bad acts?
But 9/11 was before the B-Team started engaging in most of those acts.
Get your story straight.
Most of us, when we read something like:
"I hate getting stung by bees… When should I take my hand out of the nest?”"
interpret that as "our hands are stung because we are doing something bad."
Is that your point, or not?
Does America deserve the attacks?
Please tell me that you are not an American.
And if you think I'm a "bushie" just because I think that people who shoot at Americans and train in Taliban camps should be treated as POWs, then you are either a friggin idiot or the 98% of the county is "Bushies." Since Bush is polling about 23%, I doubt the second option is true. That makes the answer clear.
June 25th, 2008 at 2:03 pmDo you see what I mean 'no more mr nice guy'?
No one who is not a Republican (or at least a “conservative”) calls it the “democrat party”.
You’re not fooling anyone.
Its the DEMOCRATIC PARTY - At least show some respect for the party of about 84% of Americans. You may like fascism, we don't.
June 25th, 2008 at 2:05 pmThis is my favorite from Mr.NiceTeaBagGuy,
I would have no problems voting for a Truman or a JFK democrat, although the party is far too left to allow for those types of voices these days.
Yeah, because the Clintons are sooooooooo far left, and the current administration is soooooooo middle of the rode moderate conservative.
June 25th, 2008 at 2:05 pmGotta agree with barfly:
double snort!!!
Hey Mr Nitwit Guy
Are we all supposed to be dazzled with your display of brilliance when proclaiming (basically) on this thread/topic :
Fu(k'em all ; lump 'em all together , whack 'em out , and sort through the mess or ask questions afterward ........???
There are cave men (and women , of course) , that had an IQ far superior to yours................
June 25th, 2008 at 2:06 pmralph the wonder llama @ #97 said:
No one who is not a Republican (or at least a “conservative”) calls it the “democrat party”.
You’re not fooling anyone.
Not to mention, Ralph, that he also said he'd consider voting for a "Truman or a JFK democrat", but that the Democratic party was too far left now. Because, as I think most of you here will agree, if the Democratic party veered any more to the right it would BE the Republican party!
Thanks to Bill-"Centrist"-Clinton there is almost no representation for Progressives right now.
June 25th, 2008 at 2:07 pmmary Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralph the wonder llama @ #97 said:
No one who is not a Republican (or at least a “conservative”) calls it the “democrat party”.
You’re not fooling anyone.
Not to mention, Ralph, that he also said he’d consider voting for a “Truman or a JFK democrat”, but that the Democratic party was too far left now. Because, as I think most of you here will agree, if the Democratic party veered any more to the right it would BE the Republican party!
Thanks to Bill-”Centrist”-Clinton there is almost no representation for Progressives right now.
June 25th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
Do we really need to be blaming Clinton for anything here ?
Isn't that what the GOP is for ?
June 25th, 2008 at 2:10 pmI dunno about you Skeeter but I assign no moral judgement to the statement:
“I hate getting stung by bees… When should I take my hand out of the nest?”
It isn't that I'm doing something 'bad' and 'deserve' to be stung... it's that getting stung is to be expected as long as your hand is in the hive...
BTW... the 'Bushies' have resisted every effort to classify the prisoners in Gitmo as POW's... they don't want POW's 'cause there are rules governing the treatment of POW's...
The problem is that the 'B-team' wants a special set of rules that they make up as the go along for these 'detainees' and that is un-American and illegal... the Supreme Court agrees.
June 25th, 2008 at 2:10 pmBelac,
So you are saying that the U.S. CAUSED 9/11?
Is that your point or not?
That sure seemed liked Max's point.
With regard to POWs: That was exactly my point. They should have been treated as POWs from the start, with the Geneva Convention, etc.
We didn't release the Nazi prison guards, and we shouldn't release most of the captured Taliban fighters. But needless to say, "not releasing them" does not equate with "put them in secret prisons and torture them."
June 25th, 2008 at 2:15 pmDRxJ,
It seems some are desperate to classify what kind of troll a poster is if they don't toe the liberal line on these issues. I don't have to be a GOPer to disagree with the decision to grant constitutional rights to terrorist. That doesn't make me a troll, although I see that the word troll is misused here as a means of dehumanizing anyone who disagrees.
MCMETAL,
June 25th, 2008 at 2:18 pmThe vietnam conflict wrt America indeed started under JFK. Your technical jibber about Eisenhower is obviously well known but it doesn't change that fact that JFK greatly escalated the situation in 1961. Honestly, you could trace the vietnam issue back to the 30's with Ho Chi Minh organizing the communists if you wanted, but it won't change the fact that JFK made it an American war. Let it go, its ok to be wrong sometimes.
Mr.NiceGuy Says:
"I’m actually an independent and I would have no problems voting for a Truman or a JFK democrat, although the party is far too left to allow for those types of voices these days."
SAY WHAT?
June 25th, 2008 at 2:19 pmFar too left?!?! These days?!?!
How's the view from your rectal vault?
By today's standards, Gerald Ford would be considered a liberal! The Democratic party has drifted so far to the right during the past 25 years or so that all too often it's difficult to distinguish it from the repugnican regime.
McMetal - I'm not allowed to say anything bad about Clinton? What? Are you serious? You don't think he swung the party too far to the right?
Hey, whatever, go back to troll bashing and have fun.
June 25th, 2008 at 2:20 pmWow. Self-contradiction in two sentences.
What an amazing display of troll agility.
Not. Fooling. Anyone.
June 25th, 2008 at 2:22 pmmary,
June 25th, 2008 at 2:22 pmI think MCM was just kidding around with you.
Ralph,
June 25th, 2008 at 2:26 pmThe time you spend parsing, you could pick up a history book and read for yourself about how the war started. Its not a secret.
liberal traitor Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mary,
I think MCM was just kidding around with you.
June 25th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
That I was
There is no one that is beyond reproach ; hear that , GOP/Chimpy stooges ?
June 25th, 2008 at 2:28 pmSkeeter-
No, I am not saying that at all... should the U.S. have prevented 9/11? Absolutely, I'll say that. Was 9/11 forseeable? Yes, I believe it was...
You said that people read Max's statement as 'the U.S. deserved it!'
I said that I didn't... still don't. Ithink he's saying getting stung is a natural consequence of sticking your hand in a bee hive...
So the question then becomes, 'Is getting stung worth sticking your hand in the Hive?' I would argue that it is if we are exterminating the bees... Afghanistan. And not worth it if we're just exchanging queens... Iraq.
(Especially if the Bees were ready to give up that old queen all on there own... Iraq, again.)
With regard to POW's... it sure seemed like your point was, 'This isn't how I would have done it but it's stupid to release someone just 'cause holding them is illegal.' Which I find to be an odd additude...
If all the detainees are so dangerous and definetly guilty why is the Government so reluctant to let anyone see/hear/represent them?
Again, this 'I'd rather 10 innocent men be tortured than 1 guilty man go free!' logic confuses me and makes me unsure if people understand the 'freedoms' that 'they' supposedly 'hate us' for... we're better than this.
June 25th, 2008 at 2:29 pmMr.NiceGuy Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MCMETAL,
The vietnam conflict wrt America indeed started under JFK. Your technical jibber about Eisenhower is obviously well known but it doesn’t change that fact that JFK greatly escalated the situation in 1961. Honestly, you could trace the vietnam issue back to the 30’s with Ho Chi Minh organizing the communists if you wanted, but it won’t change the fact that JFK made it an American war. Let it go, its ok to be wrong sometimes.
June 25th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Do you now need a dictionary , to decipher the difference(s) between "initiating" and "escalating" ?
BTW
I have "let it go" ; I forgive you for being wrong , but not for being a bullshitter...........
June 25th, 2008 at 2:30 pmMr.NiceTeaBagGuy Says:
DRxJ,
It seems some are desperate to classify what kind of troll a poster is if they don’t toe the liberal line on these issues. I don’t have to be a GOPer to disagree with the decision to grant constitutional rights to terrorist. That doesn’t make me a troll, although I see that the word troll is misused here as a means of dehumanizing anyone who disagrees.
Hey, you're the one that came out swinging. Don't get upset when you get beyatch slapped back and end up battered and bruised!
June 25th, 2008 at 2:31 pmAnd you do know that the "prisoners" being held at Gitmo are enemy combatants, not terrorists. And our great nation was founded upon due process! They must be proven to be terrorists, not designated as such because the administration says so.
But, you still play the victim very well.
And your still a mucking foron!
Careful, MCM, it seems that insisting on using the correct connotation for words is "parsing" to our troll guest.
The implication being, I think, that "initiating" and "escalating" mean exactly the same thing. I mean, obviously.
Is that where you're going with this, Mr. Independent-Who_Calls_it-The Democrat_Party?
June 25th, 2008 at 2:35 pmDRxJ,
June 25th, 2008 at 2:38 pmI would say that KSM is a terrorist, not a combatant.
I would say that KSM is a terrorist, not a combatant.
But the law requires a little more proof than your say so... more proof than even Bush's say so... that's the point.
June 25th, 2008 at 2:41 pmMr.NiceGuy'sATeaBag Says:
DRxJ,
I would say that KSM is a terrorist, not a combatant.
PROVE IT!!!!
June 25th, 2008 at 2:42 pmMr.NiceGuy Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DRxJ,
I would say that KSM is a terrorist, not a combatant.
June 25th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
You've also (erroneously) claimed that Kennedy was president at the outset of the Vietnam War , so that really means as much as a cup of spit...........
June 25th, 2008 at 2:44 pmBelac,
With regard to the "bee" comment -- I'm not clear on your distinction. It remains my interpretation that the comment was to state that the U.S. actions caused 9/11. I disgree. 9/11 was caused by the fact that Bin Laden is mass murderer. The U.S. didn't cause him to be a mass murderer. He did. He and the 18 caused 9/11. To suggest that some action by the U.S. "caused" him to act is ridiculous.
With regard to the prisoner at issue: I'm not supporting the B-Team conduct. Far from it. I have no doubt that the conduct at Gitmo and the black site harmed American interests and failed to stop terrorism. However, I am saying that the prisoners should not be released. If you are training in a Taliban camp, you need to be treated as a POW.
With regard to your final question: The answer is obvious. The B-Team did very bad things to the prisoners. They likely were tortured. Of course the B-Team doesn't want them to be interviewed. But just because the B-Team did bad things doesn't make these people good guys. Most of the people at Gitmo are murderous thugs. We need to accept that, and accept that for American security they can't go free, while at the same time also standing up and saying that the way they were imprisoned and the way they were interrogated violated the standards on which our country was founded.
June 25th, 2008 at 2:44 pmSkeeter1 Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
9/11 was caused by the fact that Bin Laden is mass murderer. The U.S. didn’t cause him to be a mass murderer. He did. He and the 18 caused 9/11. To suggest that some action by the U.S. “caused” him to act is ridiculous.
June 25th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
What's Chimpy excuse ?
Did 9/11 cause him to become a mass murderer ?
June 25th, 2008 at 2:47 pmThis is what the goverment calls "lawyer client privilege"?
June 25th, 2008 at 2:49 pmWith regard to the “bee” comment — I’m not clear on your distinction.
Skeeter-
http://allaboutfrogs.org/stories/scorpion.html
Now, is it the Frog's fault that the Scorpion stung him? NO.
Should the Frog have known that the stinging would be a natural consequence of giving the Scorpion a ride? YES.
That, illustrated in another fable, is the distinction between... 'deserving' it and 'not forseeing natural consequences and preventing them'
That's my point...
June 25th, 2008 at 2:52 pmDRxJ, belac,
June 25th, 2008 at 2:52 pmAsk Daniel Perl's widow if KSM is a combatant or a terrorist.
Besides enjoying beheading Jews, KSM also admits to being the mastermind behind the 911 operation. He also admits to a whole list of other deadly terrorist attacks and US presidential assassination plots. Do you even realize who we have in Gitmo?
MCM,
Are you really claiming an equivalance between Bush and Bin Laden? If you think things are bad under Bush, you should try to live in the society that Bin Laden wants. But idiots like you can't see the difference.
This is what is great about America -- people can say anything, even stuff as stupid and offensive as your comment.
June 25th, 2008 at 2:53 pmMr.NiceGuy Says:
Wanna see KSM locked up for all time? CONVICT HIM of SOMETHING, ANYTHING!
or classify him as a POW and hold him until the 'war' is over...
but ya don't get to lock people up and throw away the key with no trial in the U.S.A.
that's un-American and illegal, that's the issue we're discussing.
I'm sure he's a bad guy- should be easy to convict him of something, no?
June 25th, 2008 at 2:57 pmBelac,
But that's different from the bee comment in question.
"We need better intelligence or this is going to happen"
is a heck of a lot different from
"We should remove troops from Saudi soil and start demanding that women be covered head to toe or some murderous thug will blow us up."
Should the B-Team have made better use of intelligence? Of course, and for that to a large degree I blame Condi Rice.
But that is far different from the original post, which said "we should get out of the hive" -- i.e. our actions caused (rather than just failed to prevent) the attacks.
June 25th, 2008 at 3:01 pmMr.NiceGuy Says:
Do you even realize who we have in Gitmo?
Yes.
"Suspects"
June 25th, 2008 at 3:03 pmNot quite getting the concept, are ya?
I thought you would have gotten it from bleac's very eloquent response to your last attempt at this gambit:
But the law requires a little more proof than your say so… more proof than even Bush’s say so… that’s the point.
Similarly, the Law requires more than Daniel Perl's widow's say-so as well.
June 25th, 2008 at 3:03 pmSorry, I meant to type "belac" who was the author of the well-delivered rejoinder that I quoted above. My apologies.
June 25th, 2008 at 3:04 pmSkeeter1 Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MCM,
Are you really claiming an equivalance between Bush and Bin Laden? If you think things are bad under Bush, you should try to live in the society that Bin Laden wants. But idiots like you can’t see the difference.
This is what is great about America — people can say anything, even stuff as stupid and offensive as your comment.
June 25th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Oh ye of little faith (and even less brains) ; didn't I warn you about responding willy-nilly , to a background and society and realities you don't have a goddamn clue about ?
Whose family is the Shrub family close to ; even being in business with them ?
That's right , the Bin Ladens.
What country are they from , BTW ?
That's right , SAUDI ARABIA ; THE WORST COUNTRY IN TERMS OF SUFFOCATING RELIGIOUS PRACTICES AND NEVER-ENDING BACKING OF TERRORIST GROUPS.
And hell , at least Chimpy has a great time dancing with them when he visits there , right ?
Trying to talk issues with them ?
Not so much.....................You are a moronic Chimpy apologist stooge ; it is those like your imbecilic self that should be thankful for a place like TP.
If you spewed half the stupid shit in public that you have here , you'd get your rube ass kicked all over the country..........Stupid ass.
June 25th, 2008 at 3:05 pmSkeeter-
I repeat...
You said that people read Max’s statement as ‘the U.S. deserved it!’
I said that I didn’t read it that way… still don’t. I think he’s saying getting stung is a natural consequence of sticking your hand in a bee hive…
So the question then becomes, ‘Is getting stung worth sticking your hand in the Hive?’
I would argue that it is if we are exterminating the bees… i.e. Afghanistan.
And not worth it if we’re just exchanging queens… Iraq.
(Especially if the Bees were ready to give up that old queen all on there own… Iraq, again.)
That's how I read it...
June 25th, 2008 at 3:07 pmbelac,
June 25th, 2008 at 3:12 pmI would agree Bush made a big blunder with Gitmo. He should have just kept KSM and friends in a foreign prison, insulated against all the ACLU types who want to lawyer them up and extend our constitution to these foreigners. But, what's done is done. No one will accuse Bush of being a brilliant war tactician. At any rate, the problem I have is that now we may as well read these terrorists their miranda rights on the foreign battle field.
btw, belac,
June 25th, 2008 at 3:13 pmNo I don't want to see KSM locked up for a long time, lol. I want to see him executed.
Mr.TeaBagANiceGuy Says:
Ask Daniel Perl’s widow if KSM is a combatant or a terrorist.
Besides enjoying beheading Jews, KSM also admits to being the mastermind behind the 911 operation. He also admits to a whole list of other deadly terrorist attacks and US presidential assassination plots.
Asking Daniel Pearl's widow is not proof. Admission under torture is not admissible in a court of law.
June 25th, 2008 at 3:16 pmBring him to court. Present the evidence. Then judge.
This, my non GOP friend, is called due process. This was founded by our fore-fathers who were tired of the tyrannical regime of England, who believed all were equal, and all should be treated fairly under law.
But, I see you completely ignore the subject of the thread. An individual of non white skin, and a non (c)hristian, is being held in solitary confinement with NO DUE PROCESS, who has committed NO crime!!!!!!
Mr.TeaBagNiceGuy'sFace Says:
belac,
I would agree Bush made a big blunder with Gitmo. He should have just kept KSM and friends in a foreign prison, insulated against all the ACLU types who want to lawyer them up and extend our constitution to these foreigners. But, what’s done is done. No one will accuse Bush of being a brilliant war tactician. At any rate, the problem I have is that now we may as well read these terrorists their miranda rights on the foreign battle field.
Spoken like a true non GOP.
June 25th, 2008 at 3:17 pm(snort)
Mucking Foron!!!
Mr.NiceGuy Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No one will accuse Bush of being a brilliant war tactician.
June 25th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
Or of being anywhere near competent at anything.............
June 25th, 2008 at 3:18 pmIs Mr.NiceGuy fooling anyone yet?
June 25th, 2008 at 3:20 pmSkin color? Are you kidding me DRxJ?
June 25th, 2008 at 3:21 pmI don't need a lecture on due process for captured foreign combatants. That is, after all, there classification. I'm all for due process for these guys in Gitmo. Military tribunals are what is appropriate.
Mr.NiceGuy Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
btw, belac,
No I don’t want to see KSM locked up for a long time, lol. I want to see him executed.
June 25th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
Based upon what ?
Claims by the most dishonest and criminal president and administration in US history ?
Your IQ is somewhere between seaweed and a prophylactic......
June 25th, 2008 at 3:21 pmMr.NiceGuy Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Military tribunals are what is appropriate.
June 25th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Claims Dana Perino's twin brother......Did you both cut history classes together , btw ?
June 25th, 2008 at 3:22 pmAt any rate, the problem I have is that now we may as well read these terrorists their miranda rights on the foreign battle field.
If only there were some way to deal with Prisoners you captured during a 'war'... oh wait, didn't we have a whole Convention about that a while back...
No I don’t want to see KSM locked up for a long time, lol. I want to see him executed.
LOL! Executions are funny! ROTFL... you wanna execute him? CONVICT HIM OF SOMETHING!!!
What is hard to understand about this concept?
YOU don't get to decide who to execute... neither does Bush or anyone else.
Only the courts get to do that... convict him in VA or TX and you'll get you wish, but first ya gotta convict him.
Either KSM is a POW and deserves detention until the 'war' is over or he's an accused murder who deserves a fair trial... either/or, not a made up designation... that's our system.
That's the American Way! Don't like it? Leave!
June 25th, 2008 at 3:23 pm(hey, I can see why you guys like saying that so much- it's kinda fun! LOL!)
Skeeter1 Says:
"Are you really claiming an equivalance between Bush and Bin Laden?"
Why not? They used to vacation together. When was their falling out, exactly? Where was Bush's full-disclosure? I must have missed it.
June 25th, 2008 at 3:27 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
Is Mr.NiceGuy fooling anyone yet?
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and leaves deposits of duck poop all over the lawn . . .
June 25th, 2008 at 3:27 pmbelac, your great effort notwithstanding, I think the problem with non-Republican Mr.NiceGuy is that he seeks to solve an emotional problem rather than a legal one.
He wants blood. He's mad, and someone's got to pay for it. NOW.
But we shouldn't confuse him with a Republican. He's an "independent".
June 25th, 2008 at 3:28 pmFor those of you sanctimonious folks who love to evoke America's forefathers, you should know that holding military tribunals was good enough for George Washington during the revolutionary war, they're certainly good enough to deal with scum like KSM.
June 25th, 2008 at 3:29 pmJ,
June 25th, 2008 at 3:31 pmGo live in the society that Bin Laden seeks and then tell me about how equivalent they are.
Why aren't you praying now? Bin Laden would have you strung up for typing here rather than not praying.
But idiots like you claim they are equivalent.
belac,
June 25th, 2008 at 3:31 pmI'm afraid Mr.TeaBagNiceGuy'sFace will never get it.
It's like if a horrific crime happened in your neighborhood.
The victim can only remember that it was a white male, around 30 years old.
The police round up all white males in the neighborhood aged 20-40, torture them, and keep them in solitary confinement indefinitely, all the while not allowing them a lawyer, or contact with family, or even a reason why they are incarcerated.
Nice system you have there, Mr.NonGOP
Skeeter1,
Nice dodge.
June 25th, 2008 at 3:32 pmJ,
June 25th, 2008 at 3:34 pmIt is not a dodge at all.
If you think they are equivalent, I invite you to live in a Bin Laden society.
Are they the same or not?
Llama, still obsessed about my political party? I told you I don't have one. What is it with this obsession with political parties? I reject them. I can think for myself, I don't need party talking points.
Llama, I am mad, sure. You should be mad too, we all should. Its ok to be mad about 911. As far as wanting blood? Yes, I do want to kill the enemy. This is not a legal episode of JAG or whatever, this is a war. War is about killing people and breaking their things, something some on the left can never accept.
June 25th, 2008 at 3:34 pmThe 'independent' doesn't have to get it, just accept it. The law is there to protect fools like him from getting exactly what they wish for...
June 25th, 2008 at 3:35 pmMr.NiceGuy Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For those of you sanctimonious folks who love to evoke America’s forefathers, you should know that holding military tribunals was good enough for George Washington during the revolutionary war, they’re certainly good enough to deal with scum like KSM.
June 25th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
George Washington admitted to cutting down a cherry tree ; what has this heinous group of jackals and d0uchebags ever admitted ?
June 25th, 2008 at 3:35 pmSkeeter1 Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
J,
Go live in the society that Bin Laden seeks and then tell me about how equivalent they are.
Why aren’t you praying now? Bin Laden would have you strung up for typing here rather than not praying.
But idiots like you claim they are equivalent.
June 25th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Thanks to idiots like you , we're all getting spied upon , typing here .........Is that better ?
June 25th, 2008 at 3:37 pmMr.NiceGuy,
Then why did Washington bother to sign the Constitution a few years later?
June 25th, 2008 at 3:37 pmWar is about killing people and breaking their things, something some on the left can never accept.
War is about achieving your objectives through force when all other means have failed... killing people and breaking their things is a consequence of war but not the objective.
Your problem, and Bush's and the WOT in general, is that you have no objective in mind, ya just wanna kill and break stuff, and that's the kind of war no one ever wins...
You are a sad, sad human being and I hope you never have to experience what you so blithely wish on others.
June 25th, 2008 at 3:39 pmMr.NiceGuy Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Llama, still obsessed about my political party? I told you I don’t have one. What is it with this obsession with political parties? I reject them. I can think for myself, I don’t need party talking points.
Llama, I am mad, sure. You should be mad too, we all should. Its ok to be mad about 911. As far as wanting blood? Yes, I do want to kill the enemy. This is not a legal episode of JAG or whatever, this is a war. War is about killing people and breaking their things, something some on the left can never accept.
June 25th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
Justice is about harmony and righteousness ; revenge is about making yourself feel better.
This country was founded upon the ideals of justice , not revenge ; don't ask anyone to share your moronic sentiment(s)............There is a retarded 19% of the American population that does ; go irritate them with your idiocy.
June 25th, 2008 at 3:40 pmMCM,
June 25th, 2008 at 3:40 pmDo you view them as equivalent or not?
Skeeter1 Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MCM,
Do you view them as equivalent or not?
June 25th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
No
I know for a fact that Shrub is much , much worse.
And those like yourself should be imprisoned and psychologically evaluated for continuing to blindly , stupidly , and stubbornly support the moronic lying piece of crap...........
June 25th, 2008 at 3:43 pmSkeeter1,
I'll just go ahead and throw it out there for you, in case this is the first time you've heard it: They are not equivalent in that Osama Bin Laden was (and is) a CIA asset. Interesting how he mostly only seems to pop up wherever the oil/oil pipeline that we want is, no?
Read a map.
But, if I follow your fantasy, the only difference would be that Bin Laden wants me to go pray whereas Bush wants me to go shopping.
p.s. it is well documented that al qaeda was working with us as recently as kosovo in the 90's. When did it change and why did they all of a sudden 'hate our freedoms' only once Bush took office?
June 25th, 2008 at 3:46 pmMr.NiceGuy'sNonGOPTeaBaggedFace Says:
War is about killing people and breaking their things, something some on the left can never accept.
Okay, I'm done with this mucking foron.
June 25th, 2008 at 3:49 pmWar is about killing people and breaking their things, unless it's us, and our things, right Mr. NON GOP????
Then, of course, it's wrong.
I would love to know how Mr. Independent (snark-who still argues against "the left") would feel if his son or daughter was captured overseas, and held in solitary confinement for no crime committed?
belac,
June 25th, 2008 at 3:50 pmI actually don't have a "problem", we just disagree. You can come off a bit sanctimonious at times, just so you know. I don't wish bad on people, I do however understand the difference between captured enemy combatant terrorists and arrested criminal suspects. You can't prosecute a war by giving the terrorists the royal treatment. You sometimes gotta get your hands dirty. Remember how Truman nuked a couple of Japanese cities back in the day? Yea, that's how America deals with its enemies when we're attacked. We didn't give them lawyers, we eliminated them.
Mr.NiceGuy Says:
"War is about killing people and breaking their things, something some on the left can never accept."
Exactly! Now, You're catching on! Except, just a little while ago, I thought that we had the war party... which is it?
June 25th, 2008 at 3:50 pmMy point, Mr.NiceGuy, is that you seek an emotional solution rather than an rational one.
Imprisoning and executing bad guys makes sense -- if you've got the bad guys.
If, however, you have a few bad guys and a bunch of hapless cab drivers or vegetable vendors, and you imprison and execute them along with the bad guys, and fail to prove to a court or to the world that they were actually bad guys, then you've done something very stupid. You've created even more suspicion of your motives and methods than existed before, more reason for relatives of the vegetable merchant to want revenge, and basically more enemies than you had before.
This strikes me and most thinking people as counter-productive.
If these bad guys are so bad, why the reluctance to put them on trial and expose their evil acts as evidence in a proceeding that can be trusted?
Why do right-wingers think so poorly of our national institutions? You think a trial is the same thing as releasing terrorists, you think "talking without preconditions" means we'll get taken to the cleaners by another regime.
And by the way, the only reason I mention your lack of party affiliation is because you insist that you're "independent" but everyone here can see that you're a right-wing troll. You may not be a registered Republican -- there are fewer of those these days than there were two years ago -- but the "independent" disguise is a familiar trick. No one's falling for it, especially when it's a s transparent as yours.
June 25th, 2008 at 3:51 pmBin Laden has led a privileged life ; but , unlike the chimp , he is still a Muslim , which requires an unmatched (except maybe by Hassidics)discipline.
Chimpy was a silver-spoon-in-his-mouth , irrespsonsible rich boy who has never worked a day in his life ; who purposely and illegally invaded a blameless sovereign nation and has , as of this date , caused over 1 million deaths .
Has Bin Laden extinguished anywhere near that number of lives?
June 25th, 2008 at 3:51 pmJ, perhaps you have the far-left confused with the democratIC party.
June 25th, 2008 at 3:53 pmMr.NiceGuy Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
belac,
I actually don’t have a “problem”, we just disagree. You can come off a bit sanctimonious at times, just so you know. I don’t wish bad on people, I do however understand the difference between captured enemy combatant terrorists and arrested criminal suspects. You can’t prosecute a war by giving the terrorists the royal treatment. You sometimes gotta get your hands dirty. Remember how Truman nuked a couple of Japanese cities back in the day? Yea, that’s how America deals with its enemies when we’re attacked. We didn’t give them lawyers, we eliminated them.
June 25th, 2008 at 3:50 pm
The "slight" differences ?
Japan attacked us ; Iraq didn't.
And you simply cannot invade "terrorism" ; it's an ideal , not a country , clueless wonder...........
June 25th, 2008 at 3:54 pmLlama,
"If these bad guys are so bad, why the reluctance to put them on trial and expose their evil acts as evidence in a proceeding that can be trusted?"
One reason is that the whole discovery issue would likely present national security concerns. However, I'm all for closed door military tribunals, as I've said before.
June 25th, 2008 at 3:55 pmI'm far-left and I identify (more) with the Democratic Party and earlier you said that you would vote for a JFK or Truman candidate, but we were too "far-left" to allow that. If you can conflate the two, than so can I. No?
June 25th, 2008 at 3:56 pmbelac "comes off as sanctimonious"?
Only if what he says threatens your worldview.
belac has made several excellent points here, expressed with patience and clarity.
You have ignored them, pushed back or dodged around them. The only reason you would have to see belac as "sanctimonious" is because you need to tag him with something negative so that you can dismiss his arguments.
Exactly like wingnuts who accuse Obama of being "elitist".
Ridiculous.
June 25th, 2008 at 3:56 pmMr.NiceGuy Says:
"However, I’m all for closed door military tribunals, as I’ve said before."
Ok, great! We'll keep that in mind when your neighbor turns you in as an enemy combatant.
June 25th, 2008 at 3:58 pmOh, forgive me for misinterpreting your support for due process. I may have been confused by your saying this:
Yea, that’s how America deals with its enemies when we’re attacked. We didn’t give them lawyers, we eliminated them.
My bad.
June 25th, 2008 at 3:59 pmLlama,
June 25th, 2008 at 4:03 pmYes belac makes very polite and thoughtful conversation, unlike many here.
I haven't ignored any of belac's points. On the contrary I've discussed, challenged and often disagreed with them. That's the point of the comments right? Or.. is intended to be nothing more than a place to hear your own ideology simply regurgitated back to you?
J,
June 25th, 2008 at 4:05 pmYes, that's why we disagree. I understand that we are not locking up any of our neighbors in Gitmo. If we were, I would be livid. Foreign terrorists are not our friendly American barbecuing neighbors, they're ideological killers who murdered your neighbors in NY.
My comment was deleted, but the comments by people claiming that Bush is the equivalent of Bin Laden were left up?
Classic.
June 25th, 2008 at 4:06 pmMr.NiceGuy Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Llama,
Yes belac makes very polite and thoughtful conversation, unlike many here.
I haven’t ignored any of belac’s points. On the contrary I’ve discussed, challenged and often disagreed with them. That’s the point of the comments right? Or.. is intended to be nothing more than a place to hear your own ideology simply regurgitated back to you?
June 25th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
You want that you should be treated nicely here after outright lying ; yet believe that those being held unconditionally somehow "deserve it" or that their incarceration is somehow justified ?
Could you be a more selfish , pathetic worm ?
June 25th, 2008 at 4:08 pmMR.NG of no particular party~
I'm hypocritically pious?
Well, I find you blithely and willfully ignorant with a tendency to over-siplify complex world affairs...
The fact is we are a country of laws... being attacked shouldn't be used as an excuse to dismiss those laws, even if the attackers are really, really bad. And especially not if, as many have claimed, those laws and protections are the very thing our attackers despise most about us.
June 25th, 2008 at 4:09 pmMr.NiceGuy Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
J,
Yes, that’s why we disagree. I understand that we are not locking up any of our neighbors in Gitmo. If we were, I would be livid. Foreign terrorists are not our friendly American barbecuing neighbors, they’re ideological killers who murdered your neighbors in NY.
June 25th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
No , gullible clueless wonder
Those that killed my neighbors in NY were from Saudi Arabia ; we're not in Saudi Arabia , in case you didn't know that (and judging by your ignorance , you don't know that).
June 25th, 2008 at 4:11 pmSkeeter1 Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My comment was deleted, but the comments by people claiming that Bush is the equivalent of Bin Laden were left up?
Classic.
June 25th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Chalk it up to TP's new "bullshit and stupidity meter" that nabbed you before you burnt it out..........
June 25th, 2008 at 4:12 pmBullsh!t. For starters, you completely ignored belac's response to your "I would say that KSM is a terrorist" bit. belac astutely pointed out that your say-so carries no weight with the international community. You followed up by demanding that we ask Daniel Perl's widow if he's a terrorist.
You never acknowledged that due process demands proof -- evidence that must be examined and a judgment reached. You continue to offer emotional points instead of dealing rationally with the arguments that belac has soberly offered up -- frustration with your slowness of comprehension notwithstanding.
If that's how you "discuss and challenge" I'd hate to see you throw a tantrum.
June 25th, 2008 at 4:13 pmMr.NiceGuy,
"I understand that we are not locking up any of our neighbors in Gitmo. If we were, I would be livid."
The Patriot Act currently allows for it, though. I think we actually disagree because you trust our Government to use the same discretion that you personally would in their position.
Also, if all of the people in Gitmo are guilty, evil terrorists, then why have so many been released? You can't put the cart before the horse. They're not guilty just because they're in Gitmo... especially without a proper trial or being allowed to question the evidence of their detention.
June 25th, 2008 at 4:13 pmJ,
Actualy , no I do not trust my government at all. The way they let us down pre-911 was atrocious. But that's not the only reason. I could go on all day about all the ways my government lets me down. The people in our government are generally pretty awful, regardless of their party affiliation.
Anyway I understand your concern however it is thus far unwarranted because we aren't locking up our neighbors nor are we holding American people without trial. I would hope that our pathetic media would help shed light on it if the government was doing these things to Americans, but the media seems more concerned over treatment of the terrorists. Perhaps there no smoke because there's no fire.
Enemy combatant terrorists captured on the battlefield, that's who were talking about. We aren't talking about someone down the street pulled out of their bed and whisked away in a van like in the former soviet union.
belac,
Your of course correct; we're a nation of laws. We agree. We simply may disagree about with whom our constitution actually applies. I think it applies to US citizens and people arrested on US soil and I would never think that we would be so silly as to extend our constitutional rights to enemy combatants on a foreign battlefield.
Llama,
June 25th, 2008 at 4:35 pmDaniel Pearl was beheaded by this KSM guy who's currently in Gitmo, at least according to his own admission. He's clearly a terrorist. He bragged about holding the guys bloody severed head. Its a legit point to bring up. Just deal with it.
Mr.NiceGuy,
Well, I'm glad that we can agree on something, but I guess you've never heard of Jose Padilla.
"We aren’t talking about someone down the street pulled out of their bed and whisked away in a van like in the former soviet union."
Actually we are. Many of the people in Gitmo were there because a neighbor had a grudge and they were rounded up in a raid with no real evidence against them. Not everyone was on a "battlefield" per se. That's where your argument falls apart. The "legal" term "enemy combatant" does not simply pertain to an enemy on the battlefield as it seems to imply. The actual language applies to whoever the State Dept (Bush Administration) labels as such. That's why we are so "livid" and you should be as well. Why wait for it to happen to more American citizens, on a much grander scale?
June 25th, 2008 at 4:58 pmJ,
June 25th, 2008 at 5:12 pmI recall the case of the "American Taliban" John Lindh, who indeed was granted his due process after being captured on the foreign battle field. That made sense to me. He's an american after all and he deserved his due process. Although the Jose dirty bomber guy, he was actively plotting to dirty-nuke one of our cities and was an al-queda operative, which puts him into another class, imo. However even he was convicted by a federal jury, so he too had due process. I understand that he was held for a time in a navy ship's brig, iirc. Not sure what that was about.
Mr.NiceGuy Says:
"Not sure what that was about."
It was about holding an American citizen, for years, without trial, as you claimed we weren't.
Who should get to decide which "class" of American citizen has the right to a trial?
June 25th, 2008 at 5:17 pmDeal with what? You seem to have misread what I and others have been saying.
No one has said that KSM should go free or that he is not a bad guy.
What we have been saying over and over is that you claiming on a blog that "He bragged about holding the guys bloody severed head" is not proof in a court of law. It's proof of nothing.
He's a bad guy, sure. People like that should be easy to convict. Why should this nation squander what's left of the international respect we once held over pieces of filth like that?
June 25th, 2008 at 5:28 pmJ-
June 25th, 2008 at 5:30 pmYea I must admit that was a weird case. Jose did have his due process, though delayed indeed. I don’t agree with the Govt on that one although I’d like to think that they held him because they suspected there were other dirty-bomb plots that he knew about. Clearly it wasn’t a perfect situation but in the end he was tried and convicted. Iirc, that was the case where the court actually affirmed that the President could indeed legally declare US citizens enemy combatants provided that they could challenge that status. Weird case though. I’m not sure who won there. Seems like everyone lost.
Llama,
June 25th, 2008 at 5:31 pmKSM *is* being tried right now. He is getting his process. What's the problem?
The problem, MNG, is that you continually ignore or misrepresent what other posters have said, and then try to claim that you've engaged in "debate".
WTF were you trying to say with this:
Llama,
Daniel Pearl was beheaded by this KSM guy who’s currently in Gitmo, at least according to his own admission. He’s clearly a terrorist. He bragged about holding the guys bloody severed head. Its a legit point to bring up. Just deal with it.
How did this further debate on the question of due process?
And WTF am I supposed to "deal with" in that?
Is that "debate"?
June 25th, 2008 at 5:53 pmAt least when McCain was captured his family knew where he was! Is McCain the only POW in military history! What makes him so smart on Defense Issues? He was shot-down, captured and spent 5 years in a prison cell. Did the NVA send him to Defense School during the day?
June 25th, 2008 at 6:16 pmIn closing, where's his "Band of Brothers?" You know like Bush's "Band of Brothers" who flocked to his side during the '04 election!
If Mr. Parhat had been fighting the Chinese in the sixties, the CIA would have have trained him. Wow in the "school" in Afghanistan he learned to fire a rifle and a pistol. I guess we should hunt down and lock up every foreigner that ever attended "The School of the Americas" at Ft. Benning Ga....and maybe all the 11B20's too. We are the worlds worst allies--we supported Saddam against Iran, and then turned on him over Kuwait. We supported anyone willing to fight the evil Chinese Communists in the fifties and sixties, and now we imprison people that fight the good Chinese trading partner Communists. At the end of WWII, The Republic of China (Taiwan) was a PERMANENT member of the UN Security Council. Now Red China has that seat, and Taiwan isn't even a member of the UN at all. Not that other countries don't do the same stuff. As peeved as I was at our "losing" S. Vietnam, I can be near as peeved as one of those NVA guys that humped 122 kaytusha rockets down the Ho Chi Minh Trail to shoot at me at Phu Bai. He fought to make all of Vietnam Communist, and now his grand kids get to work in factories for wages to produce for the US market.....
June 26th, 2008 at 11:00 pm