http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/07/08/bill-o%E2%80%99reilly-says-it%E2%80%99s-all-liberal-policies-that-have-destroyed-americas-economy/

But still, they have misgivings……gimme a break.

helms was evil. So was Oliver north…a traitor. So was Ronald raygun, a corporate shill just as bush is.

I am sick of people like bill buckley et al being treated as if they were reasonable people operating in a democracy and that they represent what is best for our country.

The real, great Americans are villified by these people. People like FDR, Martin Luther King, JFK, etc.

Don’t try to tell me helms or the bug man from texas are great men, they are not.

Keltoi Says:
Anyone who doesn’t think Obama is shifting his Iraq position from bla, bla, bla….

Your clarvoiance is amazing. You can’t seem to see that the people who Obama is running against is taking us down a dark, deep hole and yet you can see clearly somehow that Obama, who is the anti what we have now, is going to do something much worse….please explain what that might be.

The corner is being turned and you just don’t get it.

I apologize, my friend, I did not mean to offend.

I do feel like I know you a bit. And you often ascribe to me beliefs or positions that I simply don’t hold – Republican, Bush supporter, whatever.

Snark has a way of cutting too deep at times. I don’t think you are a moonbat. I think you are extremely passionate about your beliefs and at times you really blast people who you could just as easily ignore. There is – occasionally – a stridency to your tone that perhaps make you seem more radical than you are.

But again, apologies if I mischaracterized you, you are one of my favorite adversaries.

Funny that, I hear Hitler was averse to negative feedback too. Notice how the farther out to the edges of the ideological spectrum you look, the more hard-line those folks’ positions seem to be?

Thanks for the input Huck, your opinions are noted, with amusement.

Have you lost it Keltoi? These people INVENTED CIVILIZATION. To them we are unclean, primitive, half-baked savages like every group of invaders in history. These people can name every family ancestor since before written language was invented. And you think we can impose our experimental concept of personal freedoms and national loyalties on them?

That would boarder on delusional.

The Iraqis, on the other hand, have already been overrun by us and have immense natural wealth we are trying to steal. Before our invasion they were a modern country. And, despite a despotic ruler and foreign sanctions, their standard of living was relatively high. We destroyed all that was once good about Iraq and are impeding it’s recovery by trying to rebuild it in our image and at taxpayer expense.

The Iraqis understand something you seem to miss. Namely that, to Iraq, the United States represents the same Imperial force that we protected Korea from. And the majority like us less than whatever religious/tribal rivals they may have.

We can’t offer security. They’re already conquered.

We can’t offer economic prosperity. We are stealing their wealth.

Iraq had not been invaded by a foreign power until WE invaded. We can’t offer Iraq what we offered Korea unless we withdraw.

We are not the conquerors of S Korea. We are their partners and protectors. And any assumption that has the Iraqi people forgetting that we ARE the conquerors of Iraq is based on ignorance of history and human nature. When it comes right down to it, they will most assuredly kick us out eventually. Just like they have with every foreign invader since civilization was invented. I hope they accomplish that with little additional death on either side.

Just sayin’.

In reality, I’m fairly centrist if you take each individual issue, so please, don’t think you know me – because you don’t.

All of us here have values that are in tune with the MAJORITY of Americans, taken issue-by-issue – without that scary “librul” label slapped on. I can back up this assertion with poll after poll: Abortion. Gun control. Taxes. Social security. You name it.

Only the 24/7/365 nonstop propaganda from the fascist reichwing mouthpieces like Hannity, Rush, O’Reilly et. al would have you believe otherwise. They speak for less than ONE QUARTER of Americans, Keltoi. Don’t you get that?

Obama – unlike Bush – will be the president for ALL AMERICANS. Bush only pandered to his sycophantic, leg-humping base.

I don’t have too much of a problem with the faith-based stuff – as Obama has promised to keep the proselytizing out of it. The thing is, the right doesn’t have a monopoly on Christianity any more, Keltoi.

More and more evangelicals are coming round to share the point of view that being a good steward to the Earth is part of being a good Christian. Furthermore, they are also coming back to the fundamental tenet of Christianity that instructs us to care for the poor, the sick, the hungry, etc.

Same thing with gays and lesbians. The MAJORITY of Americans believe that gays should be allowed to marry, serve openly in the military, not be discriminated against, etc. The reich is wrong on this – as they are on so many other things, which is why the GOP in it’s present Bush-regime incarnation is rapidly becoming extinct.

You were probably only being snarky, Keltoi, but I’m sick and tired of being portrayed as a fringie and a lunatic and a America-hating terrorist — when I’m every bit as mainstream America (if not more) than you are.

Fantasies. Facts on the ground don’t support this rosy scenario, and won’t, any time in the near (10 year) future.

The fantasy is to think that Obama is going to pull all our troops out in two terms, let alone one.

If the Iraqi parliament passes a resolution demanding we leave, then we will go. But they will only do that when they are totally convinced their collective necks are safe, and while they are getting there they aren’t there yet.

Just so we are clear, barfly, I am not for perpetual occupation. Once the ISF is really trained up with a solid corps of non-coms and junior officers that have bought into the US system of loyatlty to the constitution over sect or leader, then there will be no point in our troops staying in country. We have plenty of air bases in the Gulf to take care of any regional threats, we have no need for boots on the ground in Iraq in perpetuity if they don’t want us there.