Jonah Goldberg compares Obama’s national service plan to slavery.
Jonah Goldberg compares Obama’s national service plan to slavery.
Today in a LA Times op-ed, conservative columnist Jonah Goldberg compared Sen. Barack Obama’s (D-IL) plan to encourage volunteerism among students to a form of slavery, suggesting in the first sentence that “the black presidential candidate” might be violating the 13th Amendment:
There’s a weird irony at work when Sen. Barack Obama, the black presidential candidate who will allegedly scrub the stain of racism from the nation, vows to run afoul of the constitutional amendment that abolished slavery.
For those who don’t remember, the 13th Amendment says: “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime … shall exist within the United States.”
I guess in Obama’s mind it must be a crime to be born or to go to college.
Goldberg was angered by Obama’s pledge to “set a goal for all American middle and high school students to perform 50 hours of service a year, and for all college students to perform 100 hours of service a year.” Though Goldberg eventually admitted that “national service isn’t slavery,” he insisted that it “contributes to a slave mentality, at odds with American tradition.”
Jonah Goldberg is a nitwit.
July 8th, 2008 at 9:53 amYet another example of why Jonah Goldberg is known around the blogosphere as The Doughy PantLoad…
July 8th, 2008 at 9:54 amNational Service = Slavery
This explains perfectly, the Reich-wing world view of Patriotism, Nationalism, the Sovereign State and what it means to be an American.
Conservatives: Republicans, Libertarians and Neocons are not now, and never have been, Americans.
July 8th, 2008 at 9:56 amJohnny Gold is a a**hole, how he gets a platform to spew his crap is puzzling?
July 8th, 2008 at 9:56 amAnd Jonah’s “intellect” is compared to a retard.
July 8th, 2008 at 9:57 amHow do morons like this get a public microphone?
July 8th, 2008 at 9:57 amI guess the draft didn’t pass the “Goldberg” smell test either It’s amazing that repugs can shout about supporting the troops all the while unwilling to serve this country in an other way than to blather shit.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:01 amJonah enslaved himself by his own stupidity…and until he frees himself from such stupidity, his words will remain insignificant.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:02 amJonah Goldberg to America: “See, I told you the GOP have NOTHING for you. Besides, once Bush makes the tax cuts permanent, all will be well.”
July 8th, 2008 at 10:02 amIs it me or does Jonah look suspiciously like Hubert Humphrey?
July 8th, 2008 at 10:04 amMy high school aged daughter already does that much community service. Service has been advised for students along time to bolster their scholarship chances. This is an excellent idea. I have studied history and I don’t remember any slaves serving the poor dinner.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:05 am“..at odds with American tradition.”
Yes, with “tradition” being understood by Goldberg to mean “working for nothing, not contributing sweat equity or voluntering yourself to any common cause, yet having everything handed to you by your chain smoking haggardly lush of a mother”.
This lil’ chickenhawk needs a serious beat down into reality, without floozy momma being around to save his *ss..
July 8th, 2008 at 10:08 amIt does go against the American tradition of being snobish, fat, and lazy.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:09 amThat “doughy pantload” would do anything to avoid service or pay taxes to live in “his” country, that country that is so “free” for his taking. “Pantload” fits the bill here.
And the la times is obviously hard up to fill a page when they get the likes of this idiot to pen his republican fear and hate as part of our Constitution. Don’t they have a proof reader to dispell the lies they are printing? Or are lies their best selling point?
July 8th, 2008 at 10:09 amencourage volunteerism among students = slavery.
What a dolt.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:10 amGolberg is such an idiot, he thinks fascism is left-wing, not right-wing. Then he turns around and says we’re all fascist. Please don’t run anymore threads from people who write for the National Review, the National Enquirer is more believable.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:11 amConservatives are absolutists. Everything is either black or white because they are utterly color blind to every shade of grey.
To them, either you are free or you are enslaved. Volunteerism is one of those shades of grey that their tiny brains cannot comprehend.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:12 amMorons like Jonah get a public microphone because morons give them one. Newspapers sell more papers if morons write their editorials, apparently.
Need some click-thru’s? Hire a moron.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:12 amThe draft is slavery?
July 8th, 2008 at 10:13 amFor those who don’t remember, the 13th Amendment says: “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime … shall exist within the United States.”
If he believes that requiring citizens to do some sort of community work is slavery then what did he think about the draft? Was he out there protesting the draft? Does he protest the draft today?
What an a$$hat.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:13 amWe’ve long know that The Right is already unhinged.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:14 amThe nomination of Obama and their reaction to his inevitable election is going to make this fact more and more clear to the average American over the coming months & years.
“Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime … shall exist within the United States.”
Does this mean that if the next Administration does it’s job and all these neocon scumbags are convicted, we can punish them by forcing involuntary servitude into the armed forces upon them? I say we create a special corps of neocons called the Chickenhawk Brigade and drop them unarmed into Iran for a little neocon recon. They might be pretty easy to spot with the stench of doody in their collective pants, but that’s a risk I’m willing to take in the name of Freedom! I call this idea “A Return on Failure”. Better get that flight suit out of mothballs Georgie and polish up that shotgun Dick, onward Christian soldiers and all that.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:15 amIt’s called binary thinking. You’re either with them or against them. You’re either a homophobe or a homo. You’re either white or second class. You’re either kissing Bush’s a$$ or you’re a traitor.
They can’t handle anything beyond that. It’s why they ridicule “nuance” as if it was a bad thing. It’s why they don’t trust ‘intellectuals’ (people that read).
July 8th, 2008 at 10:15 amthe Lone Voice of Reason Says: My high school aged daughter already does that much community service. Service has been advised for students along time to bolster their scholarship chances. This is an excellent idea. I have studied history and I don’t remember any slaves serving the poor dinner.
When I was young, because my mother had grown up poor, was always cvolunteering us to help others through acts of volunteerism. As an adult, I continued to volunteer my time to help others. Never once did I feel like a slave, nor did I not enjoy the good that I was doing to help other people. It’s human nature to want to help others. These Cons are simply NOT human.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:16 amWhen times seem bleakest and hope seems out of reach, remember this one comforting fact:
Republicans are flammable.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:17 amHmmm, one wonders what Mr. Goldberg thinks of the national service criteria that nations like Israel expect from its citizens? Does he consider Israel a slave state because it requires its citizens to serve in the military?
July 8th, 2008 at 10:18 amJonah Goldberg: American Fascist TOOL or KNOB, take your pick!
July 8th, 2008 at 10:18 amBut it would be OK if Johnny Mac got elected and restored the draft, cuz he’s a republican and they know best about national security.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:19 amJonah Goldberg is a farking idiot. WTF is wrong with these people?
July 8th, 2008 at 10:19 amRantingTommy Says:
When times seem bleakest and hope seems out of reach, remember this one comforting fact:
Republicans are flammable.
They are? I’ve been trying to set these morons on fire with my mind for years now. No luck so far, but I’ll keep trying…
July 8th, 2008 at 10:20 amThe Health Benefits of Volunteering:
A Review of Recent Research has found a significant connection between volunteering and good health. The report shows that volunteers have greater longevity, higher functional ability, lower rates of depression and less incidence of heart disease.
Doesn’t sound much like slavery to me!
July 8th, 2008 at 10:20 amProgress Rocks Says:
——————————————————————————–
We must force people to do National service. That we we can show the youth the Progressive view of the world. I hope Obama makes this mandatory.
Please, just go away.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:20 amSilly person, NOTHING Israel does can be considered wrong by a right-wing fear mongering cowardly republican. The mere suggestion that they might must be labeled as anti-Semitic, quickly, before rational thought is allowed to take root.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:21 amObama’s college service plan provides $4000 per year for 100 hours of service each year you’re on the plan.
When did $40 per hour become slavery?
July 8th, 2008 at 10:22 amFreelancing in Corporate America IS akin to slavery. No benefits, no retirement match, no vacation days, no sick days.
And you can be replaced at the drop of a hat by a college grad who is willing to work for half.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:22 amRantingTommy Says: It’s called binary thinking. You’re either with them or against them.
They got that quote from Jesus. It’s in the bible(s) pretty much just like that.
They can’t handle anything beyond that. It’s why they ridicule “nuance” as if it was a bad thing. It’s why they don’t trust ‘intellectuals’ (people that read).
I’m related to people like this. They also never do any research, but spew their opinions like they are facts. No wonder America has become so divided over the years. There simply is no compromise with these people, as it’s also always ‘win’ or ‘lose’ and they can never accept defeat…
July 8th, 2008 at 10:22 amProgress Rocks Says: We must force people to do National service. That we we can show the youth the Progressive view of the world. I hope Obama makes this mandatory.
Oh please. You Cons force middle class people to work like slaves for slave wages and you then have the gall to knock volenteering? Scat!
July 8th, 2008 at 10:26 amOK, not slavery, that is strong language, I am getting paid, but Corporate America would love to have everyone freelance to save them boat loads of cash.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:26 amLet’s make a bet. I predict that Iraq won’t have a civil war, that it will have a viable constitution, and that a majority of Iraqis and Americans will, in two years time, agree that the war was worth it. I’ll bet $1,000 (which I can hardly spare right now).
Who could be so stupid to say that?
July 8th, 2008 at 10:26 amthe 13th Amendment says: “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime … shall exist within the United States.”
Sorry, Jonah, but both the draft and the stop-loss policy is actual involuntary servitude. Where’s your protest about those?
July 8th, 2008 at 10:27 amPeople like this are just dying to juxtapose the stereotypical ‘black culture’ with any fresh ideas coming from Obama. If they can’t do it directly, they’ll point out a perceived ‘irony’ or ‘hypocrisy’ that somehow is counter-productive to the out-of-reach equality. All because they’re scared.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:27 amThere is no draft for the military in the USA at the present time.
Public service slavery.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:29 amI wonder if dipshits like Goldberg and Progress Rocks know that actual slavery really does exist today in farms and factories in the United States and U.S. territories.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:30 amError in post 43:
Public service does not equal slavery.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:31 amYou know what’s funny?
This ‘progress rocks’ person really thinks they are successfully fooling people into believing that he represents the progressive viewpoint.
Anyone stupid enough to believe that was going to vote for McSame anyway.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:35 amGoldberg is a lot like O’Hanlon…blind obedience to the corporate machine is the only loyalty they can express.
I’ve believe for years that National service is an excellent option for kids that haven’t made up their mind on what they want to do with their lives.
I also believe 2 years of such service should equate to post-secondary tuition credits. A couple of years working will help our young determine what career track they prefer, while giving them valuable experience in the world of work.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:36 amSpoken by a spoiled, fat, lazy no-talent, rich kid who got where he is through his mother’s influence. He wouldn’t know the meaning of volunteering - he does nothing without pay.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:37 amProgress Rocks Says:
Unfortunately there’s no age limit to posting here.
Please come back when you’ve graduated from elementary school…
July 8th, 2008 at 10:37 amcaption contest:
J. Goldberg, “…and we’re back. I want to thank my special guests tonight here on my new cable access show “From the Basement”. Backup, Tanqueray(Progress Rocks), roger2x a special thanks for supplying the Cheet-os (official snack of the GOP)! Thanks again to our benefactors at the RNC for the koolaid and join us tomorrow where we’ll…”
Mommy Goldberg, “Jonah!! Come up here and clean your room right now!”
J. Goldberg, “Ma, I gotta do this! What am I your slave?Jeez! Sorry folks, join us next time where we’ll discuss the future of trolling for dimes under a Democrat presidency. Signing off for now, I’m jabberj…I mean Jonah Goldberg and remember Clinton did it too! Good night everyone!”
crickets chirping / fade to black
July 8th, 2008 at 10:38 amPR is an imposter, a troll.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:38 amIf this plan does go into effect, will the Heritage Foundation be considered a college?
July 8th, 2008 at 10:38 amNon College people?
Tell me, you’re from planet “dipshiticus” correct?
You sound like a 9 year old with a weak grasp on the English language. Would you like me to get my dog to post a reply, you’d probably make more sense to her.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:41 amRanting Tommy,
July 8th, 2008 at 10:41 amTry a Bic or a Djeep; works everytime…
That’s funny, because the “American tradition”, as I know it, takes pride in volunteerism.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:43 amNon college people? That means people who aren’t going to college. So my dog tells me.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:47 amAh, you can always count on the Doughy Pantload to inject a little comedy into the staid environment of what passes for conservative intelligensia.
The sad thing is, I don’t think he realizes how ridiculous he is. I think he believes he’s really making sense.
And you can usually count on our familiar fake “Progressive” troll to show up and pretend that progressives are as stupid as he is. Does HE really think he’s fooling anyone? Truthfully, I don’t think his intellectual capacity extends far enough that he can consider abstract concepts.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:50 amIn reich-wing world, volunteering for your country is “at odds with American tradition”. Thanks for clearing that up.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:51 amHere’s a little tip, silly little troll — we’re not mocking “those people”.
We’re mocking you.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:52 amYeah, because hard-charging corporate America isn’t a form of slavery, with its rampant discrimination in all forms.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:52 amI wasn’t mocking you, I agree with you. I just think people who attack other people’s grammar are petty. Anyway, he should have used a comma after the word dipshiticus. The guy shouldn’t throw stones.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:52 amProgress Rocks Says:
I am a Progressive. I voted for Obama in the Primaries and will vote for him in the general election.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:38 am
_____
I know progressives. I’ve worked with progressives. I’ve lived with progressives. You, sir, are no progressive.
You are an RNC-funded caricature placed here to post inflammatory “progressive” rhetoric that you can syndicate to Redstate and LGF.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:52 amHey Progress rocks, we understand being dumb is considered a good thing amongst your people, can’t be too careful not to appear “elitist” or as we call it “educated”. But really we can spot you idiots coming from miles away so if you’re going to pose as a progressive you’re going to have to try a little harder.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:53 amAs a person who wants to get back to following the COnstitution, I say I can not disagree with him.
I realize that progressives want to mandatory national service for our youth to better the world, but the man does have a point and I am a liberal.
With the fact that to get ahead in this highly competative world, young people need their degrees and get out in the workplace asap.
Who are we, the older generation, to say sorry about that but we have this new mandatory service thang.
The draft is one thing - that is instituted for protection. Mandatory community service is a whole different animal.
Progressives complain about how the fascist conservative tramp on the Constitution, maybe Progressives should take their own advice.
Mandatory service is against the Constitution - Period.
Give the Contard credit - he got that one right!
July 8th, 2008 at 10:54 amDon’t give the troll that much credit. It’s just another low-life troll that has already been banned a dozen times.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:54 amTime to *flag* this troll away.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:55 amIt appears the man has other faults besides his writing skills no?
July 8th, 2008 at 10:55 amProgress Rocks Says:
—-
hussein toasterhead,
Why the name calling? Aren’t we all here to discuss Progress? I want mandatory service for all people so we can extablish a Communitarian spirit as opposed to Individualistic thought.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:34 am
——
LOL, a Rand Parody Troll.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:56 amSpeaking of corporate hell, Rachael Ray Show Employee Suing for Discrimination
Mary C Kelly could use her own 100 hours of service.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:57 amProgress Rocks Says:
—
bryan hussein,
What about those that don’t want to go to College. We Progressive must realize not everyone is College material. We need Trade schools so that we can have Plumbers, Electricians and Mechanic. These are good paying jobs as well.
—-
I don’t see your point…
July 8th, 2008 at 10:59 amctcadguy Says:
The plan “encourages” national service it doesn’t “mandate” it. And it is intended to help fund college educations. And if you were in fact a “liberal” you would know that.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:59 amI don’t see your point…
You’re not looking in the right place, on top of it’s head, a pin-head, if you will.
July 8th, 2008 at 11:00 amADDdaddy: OK, not slavery, that is strong language, I am getting paid, but Corporate America would love to have everyone freelance to save them boat loads of cash.
Actually in my experience it all amounts to the same thing. As an agency IT contractor (1995 to 2000) I was paid by the hour and earned overtime by whenever the contract was up for renegotiation and my increasing skills demanded a higher pay rate I’d end up being replaced by another, cheaper temp (or just never replaced).
July 8th, 2008 at 11:01 amMy last job as a contractor was set up as a salaried position for a massive IT implementation project but as my end of it was understaffed my colleagues were working 100 hours a week but getting paid for 55–which was illegal–so it was pay-up or I quit. I was fired ( but I did get my OT in the end ).
When I finally got an “actual” job I found myself having to work 80-90 hours a week which translated to 10 dollars an hour. So there you go.
The guy was anorexic?
July 8th, 2008 at 11:02 amP-Rocks: “I was told that many of the older posters here had a snotty attitude towards newbies.”
By whom?
July 8th, 2008 at 11:02 amctcadguy Says:
The fewer money-hungry psychophants we can turn out through such programs, the better. Instilling hyper-capitalistic tendencies in our youth does not keep a democracy alive.
July 8th, 2008 at 11:03 amDo I really have to choose? Can’t he be both a Fascist TOOL AND a KNOB?
July 8th, 2008 at 11:04 amJonah Goldberg is a conservative fatshit. Ooops. I misspelled fascist.
-GSD
July 8th, 2008 at 11:08 amMe thinks the “progressive” troll doth protest too much.
July 8th, 2008 at 11:09 ampsst, ‘progress rocks’, you gave yourself away again
this time it was your capitalization of the word “Left”
wow, you really are not very bright, are you?
July 8th, 2008 at 11:09 am5th Estate Says:
——————————————————————————–
P-Rocks: “I was told that many of the older posters here had a snotty attitude towards newbies.”
By whom?
—-
By Whom? (x2)
July 8th, 2008 at 11:10 amDr. Hussein Matt Says:
The guy was anorexic?
July 8th, 2008 at 11:02 am
Apparently so. The fact that he was offered $4000 to go out the door, I believe strengthens his case because they may have realized they were culpable of getting hit with a suit asking for much more — the asking price is now $1.5M.
I don’t feel so sorry for Rachael Ray anymore, though she’s not individually named in the suit.
July 8th, 2008 at 11:11 amI have two flashdrives full of essays, prime research papers, and other projects I’ve had to write since I went back to school. Community service will seriously cut it to my partying time. Ouch!
July 8th, 2008 at 11:12 amI guess all the volenteers at hospitals are slaves….I guess all the daily food bank volenteers are slaves…..I guess meals on wheels volenteers are slaves…..I guess all aid orginizations that have volenteers are slaves…..I guess JESUS…who helped for no pay was a slave?????
YOUR A F’EN IDIOT SIR. YOU DO NOT BELONG HERE PLAIN AND SIMPLE. FASCISTS ARE AT THE FRONT DOOR!!!! AND GUESS WHO IS KNOCKING…..MR. McCain….anyone home????
July 8th, 2008 at 11:15 amctcadguy Says:
As a person who wants to get back to following the COnstitution, I say I can not disagree with him.
Another “strict constructionist” liberal? Busted.
You guys only believe that stuff when it suits your purposes, and jettison it when it doesn’t.
The draft is one thing - that is instituted for protection. Mandatory community service is a whole different animal.
You can’t pick and choose, Mr. Strict Constructionist. If the draft is constitutional, so is national service.
July 8th, 2008 at 11:16 amGoldberg is such an idiot that I actually ALMOST feel sorry for the fool.
July 8th, 2008 at 11:18 amProgress Rocks Says:
“What about those that don’t want to go to College. We Progressive must realize not everyone is College material. We need Trade schools so that we can have Plumbers, Electricians and Mechanic. These are good paying jobs as well.”
Nothing is stopping people from going to a trade school. I’m fairly certain that the qualifications for Obama’s college service plan would be similar to what would be required for a Pell Grant, which is that as long as the school is properly accredited, the credit would apply.
The big point of this is that the fundamental premise of Jonah’s essay is wrong. Although Obama’s campaign words it a bit funny, he’s not calling for mandatory universal service. He IS providing an incredibly good incentive for a pretty small amount of service. If it passes as is, it would certainly be enough incentive for me to go back to school and pursue my master’s degree.
July 8th, 2008 at 11:20 amminimum wage
July 8th, 2008 at 11:25 amSo, it appears that I missed the Trajan/Joker troll imitating a progressive. Darn.
July 8th, 2008 at 11:26 amWhat was it like?
A bunch of gargled words typed with the assorted Leftist, Iran, and Muslim thrown in with the occasional pseudo-Latin history references?
Not to mention, bryan hussein, our nation’s community colleges already do a good job promoting enrollment and educating those enrolled in trade programs.
Since when do neocons care for the labor of the blue collar workforce anyway? They want “those people” (i.e., illegals) to do those jobs for dirt-cheap wages so their kid can spend his free-time in the food court at Yale.
July 8th, 2008 at 11:26 amJonah, there’s a whale looking for a snack, go make yourself useful.
July 8th, 2008 at 11:27 amright to work
July 8th, 2008 at 11:28 amminimum wage
This young tub of lard has about as much credance as the next wino on the street. What life experience has he suffered through to be giving advice? Why does he get space on this or any site? Jonah missed his chance to grow up when he refused to join the military to fight the war he so supports.
July 8th, 2008 at 11:28 amso is goldberg’s reference to the “slave mentality” an explicit reference to Nietzsche? If he knew anything about Nietzsche, it seems he would realize that it’s pointless and counter-productive for him (presumably under the influence of the “master mentality”) to point out the existence of the slave mentality to the slaves. Though it would go a long way toward explaining neocons’ actual conduct.
And i wish we would stop giving these right-wing nutjobs so much credit as to believe that *they* believe the nonsense they’re spewing. He’s just a political sideshow, and not a very interesting one at that. What’s sad is that, of course, there are people who will listen to a Jonah Goldberg or a Sean Hannity or a Bill O’Reilly or a Rush Limbaugh, but none of these guys (well, actually, maybe Sean Hannity) actually believes the rancid tripe that comes out of their mouths.
July 8th, 2008 at 11:41 amDRxJ Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 11:41 amWhat was it like?
A bunch of gargled words typed with the assorted Leftist, Iran, and Muslim thrown in with the occasional pseudo-Latin history references?
Everything but the pseudo-Latin references…
there is nobody stupider than jonah goldberg.
July 8th, 2008 at 11:51 amI’m sure that Goldberg most likely thinks that Kennedy’s “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country,” also “contributed to a slave mentality.”
Calls for service are nothing new. Requirements for graduation (whether it’s from middle school, high school, or college) are nothing new. When I was in high school, I was required to perform service as part of a civics class. I didn’t feel any more like a slave doing that than I did while sitting in the classroom.
July 8th, 2008 at 11:55 amVerbal, I had an epiphany regarding the Doughy Pantload this morning; he’s not the idiot regressive that he appears to be. He CAN’T be. Nobody could be that stupid and still make a living as a pundit.
Nope, he must be an exquisite satirist.
It’s the only explanation that makes sense.
O’l Jonah, rather than being a lumpen camp-follower clinging to his mommy’s apron, is actually an iconoclastic pardoy-prone double agent, rebelling against his parents’ politics by ridiculing them from within.
He’s actually the most effective force the Left has at its disposal for winning the battle of ideas.
just think about it for a minute…
July 8th, 2008 at 11:57 amGoldberg is a typical selfish “every man for himself and screw the weak and poor” Republican. No sense of community or belief that all of us on this planet are inextricably linked and need to help one another.
I feel sorry for poor bastards like him, who will never get to enjoy life in a community of people with shared values who get satisfaction out of helping others.
July 8th, 2008 at 12:02 pmwwew Says:
“there is nobody stupider than jonah goldberg.”
Oh, I don’t know. He may have to fight Doug Feith for the title of stupidest motherf…er on earth.
July 8th, 2008 at 12:09 pmAll the posters on here who engage in name calling — “tub of lard”. . .”tool”…”idiot” — and your call yourselves progressives? Really?
You could go a long way to enhancing the discourse by addressing the ideas and issues, not the person and his physical appearance.
Meanwhile, let’s take a look at this Obama “idea”
First, while it isn’t compulsory, it is “contingent.” That is no federal benefit until you fulfill some requirement of an action. As a result, it does limit freedom. (By the way, this is different than receiving benefits like the earned income tax credit, which is purely a means test benefit).
Second, it requires that the State to make a judgment on the “worth” of your actions. Which action is acceptable? And which is not? What if I volunteer to counsel unmarried and pregnant teenagers to put a child out for adoption rather than abort? Is that OK? How about volunteering for Planned Parenthood, which provides information about safe abortions? Is that OK? And who should decide which is OK? Some bureaucrat?
Third, we have another layer of bureaucracy and monitoring. Somebody has to devise criteria for acceptability, create the list, monitor the list, change the list, publish the list, grandfather some service alternatives in, and grandfather some out. Meanwhile, suppose I find a community service alternative that isn’t on the “approved” list. How do I petition to get that alternative on the list? Who judges that alternative? Are there any avenues for appeal if that gets turned down? And what if I do really valid community service, and someone else skates along? Is that fair? Should I petition to the government to get more benefits since I worked harder than the other person?
Look, the Obama idea sounds all shiny and changey and all that, but in the end, volunteering should be VOLUNTARY.
July 8th, 2008 at 12:10 pmWell it’s nice to know that this wanker thinks volunteerism and community service is slavery. Please, tell me, what has the doughy pantload done to make the world a better place? Obama’s plan gives folks an opportunity to go to college and to make a difference in their community. It sure looks like a win win to me. I come from a family that has always volunteered - without an alterior motive - and welcome Obama’s ideas.
July 8th, 2008 at 12:14 pmAnd it still is VOLUNTARY. No requirement that you do it.
July 8th, 2008 at 12:21 pmExcept maybe some peer pressure, as the idea catches on, and young people recognize the value of service to their community.
And for the layers of bureacracy? States will figure it out, and minimize the cost. They’re better suited to do that than the feds, and that’s what Obama realizes.
Pity you don’t.
Thanks for the tips on etiquette. We’ll try to simplify our arguments when you’re around, as you seem to get distracted easily.
Simply put, presenting volunteerism as the moral and constitutional equivalent of slavery is absurd.
And anyone who argues this point announces clearly their unsuitability for reasoned debate.
July 8th, 2008 at 12:21 pmminarchist Says:
Second, it requires that the State to make a judgment on the “worth” of your actions. Which action is acceptable? And which is not? What if I volunteer to counsel unmarried and pregnant teenagers to put a child out for adoption rather than abort? Is that OK? How about volunteering for Planned Parenthood, which provides information about safe abortions? Is that OK? And who should decide which is OK? Some bureaucrat?
Third, we have another layer of bureaucracy and monitoring. Somebody has to devise criteria for acceptability, create the list, monitor the list, change the list, publish the list, grandfather some service alternatives in, and grandfather some out. Meanwhile, suppose I find a community service alternative that isn’t on the “approved” list. How do I petition to get that alternative on the list? Who judges that alternative? Are there any avenues for appeal if that gets turned down? And what if I do really valid community service, and someone else skates along? Is that fair? Should I petition to the government to get more benefits since I worked harder than the other person?
How about well-established systems already in place at the IRS and USA Freedom Corps and AmeriCorps to ensure that partner organizations are indeed legitimate nonprofit organizations? The government need not do anything beyond verifying the tax status of the organizations, which they already do. The NGOs themselves are perfectly capable of submitting the necessary paperwork to get themselves added to the “approved” list, as well as tracking the attendance and performance of their volunteers. The amount of government oversight needed is minimal.
July 8th, 2008 at 12:27 pmLast I heard, thousands of churches also encourage volunteerism– it’s good for the soul.
Last I heard, Volunteerism is voluntary, not mandated, which, I think is the definition of slavery — compulsory activities.
And what is so offensive about lending a helping hand to one’s fellow man? Oh that’s right, in Republican world, they only help those that can help them back fiscally and in the future. Everyone else is part of the ownership society — you are on your own.
July 8th, 2008 at 12:28 pmThat is no federal benefit until you fulfill some requirement of an action. As a result, it does limit freedom.
~minarchist
No, it doesn’t. It’s voluntary, which means that you don’t have to do it if you don’t want to. Nobody is arguing in favor of limiting that choice.
You want the reward? Then you will have to finish the job. A good idea because it will also encourage, you know, responsibility.
Or perhaps you have a fundamental problem with the meaning of the word voluntary?
July 8th, 2008 at 12:31 pmSomeone help me out here — is minarchist suggesting that federal benefits should be distributed without any “requirement of an action”? In order to maximize freedom, I mean?
Isn’t that the criticism that regressives lay on “librul” programs like welfare? That they provide a benefit without requiring any action?
I’m confused.
July 8th, 2008 at 12:37 pmWhat about Community Involvement do repukian “it’s all about me” scum do these guys not get?
It’s called “HELPING AMERICANS”, you fascist POS.
July 8th, 2008 at 12:38 pmstewarjt, #27
Definitely a knob. Tools can be useful things sometimes. Jonah, not so much.
Comparing volunteers to slaves makes just about as much sense as saying that liberals are fascists. Oh, wait…
July 8th, 2008 at 12:43 pmThat fat schmuck can even get off the couch let alone do any sort of national service.
July 8th, 2008 at 12:48 pmADDdaddy Says:
Freelancing in Corporate America IS akin to slavery.
OK, not slavery, that is strong language, I am getting paid, but Corporate America would love to have everyone freelance to save them boat loads of cash.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:26 am
Let’s see.. I’m not a libertarian, but let me give this a shot: You are free to negotiate with corporate america and what ever the agreed upon price is what the free market will bear.
Now the progressive side of me says: you should be paid what you are worth. Raise your prices. Don’t undercut your value. Trust your value. And for the kids that undercut your value, tell those corporations that they also will get what they pay for.
July 8th, 2008 at 1:02 pmIs this fat Reich Winger for real or what, more fearmongering from the Reich , maybe if college wasn`t damn exspensive people wouldn`t have the need for a little community service. Imagine that , a Reich winger using the 13th Amendment as a talking point, when usually they discard the Constitution…..
July 8th, 2008 at 1:02 pm.
Jonah Goldberg…Who?
Oh, the guy who thinks Liberals and Progressives are Fascists.
ROFLMAO!!!! Big Time!
.
July 8th, 2008 at 1:08 pmFat, stupid, and ugly is noway to go through life, Jonah!
July 8th, 2008 at 1:11 pmA couple of things.
First Mr. Wonder LLama, condescension is rather poor etiquette. Go back and read what you wrote.
Second, Mr. Toaterhead, Planned Parenthood has the right tax status. OK to use them? And can you really be assured that it will only take “minimal government” oversight?
Third, Mr. Wonder Llama again, government benefits should be designed to do two, and only, two things: (1) to help those who can’t help themselves; and (2) to ensure a broader public benefit.
Welfare reform was essential as AFDC was a completely broken system. Welfare as it was constituted was, as the economists say, a deadweight loss to our system. Giving incentives to citizens to be productive, as opposed to being leeches, was a broader public benefit.
But Obama’s contingent public service simply adds ANOTHER burden on an already productive activity. College loans and Pell Grants aren’t welfare — they are means by which folks become more educated and more useful citizens. They are in and of themselves good things.
July 8th, 2008 at 1:20 pmSo the National Guard soldiers sent to Iraq by Bush are slaves?
July 8th, 2008 at 1:22 pmFirst, while it isn’t compulsory, it is “contingent.” That is no federal benefit until you fulfill some requirement of an action. As a result, it does limit freedom.
Personally, I wouldn’t mind a few more parts of the government to be contingent… like the money the pentagon gets… I’d like to see the better benefits for the amount of money we spend there.
July 8th, 2008 at 1:22 pmPlease explain this “burden” of which you speak.
(You’ll forgive me if I read some condescension in your description of welfare recipients as “leeches”. But at least you weren’t calling anyone any unflattering names.)
July 8th, 2008 at 1:26 pmJonah Goldberg is to journalism what George Bush is to politics - another spoiled son given a privilege-boost to a position he has no business filling. Why on earth should this know-nothing have a national platform for his ill-informed and poorly-written screeds against people with genuine accomplishments, experience, and ethics?
Put a sock in it, Jonah, you moron.
July 8th, 2008 at 1:26 pmI wish conservatives would clarify their positions when criticizing affirmative action.
They’re clearly FOR it in certain cases, like the aforementioned Misters Bush and Goldberg. It’s only when those benefiting have dark skin that it’s an incentive-killing evil.
July 8th, 2008 at 1:33 pm“First, while it isn’t compulsory, it is “contingent.” That is no federal benefit until you fulfill some requirement of an action. As a result, it does limit freedom. (By the way, this is different than receiving benefits like the earned income tax credit, which is purely a means test benefit).
Second, it requires that the State to make a judgment on the “worth” of your actions. Which action is acceptable? And which is not? What if I volunteer to counsel unmarried and pregnant teenagers to put a child out for adoption rather than abort? Is that OK? How about volunteering for Planned Parenthood, which provides information about safe abortions? Is that OK? And who should decide which is OK? Some bureaucrat?“.
1) Since the program is being promoted mainly through AmeriCorps and the Peace Corps, it would be easiest to look for an affiliate near you or your school of choice and start that way. No one is stopping you from doing the volunteer work you want to do, but the government doesn’t have to jump to cater to your specific work. I don’t see how offering this money that wasn’t there before somehow limits your freedom to do what you want with your free time.
2) Actually, Article 1 Section 8 of the Constitution calls for just that. It is within the power of Congress to promote the progress of science and useful arts. Thus, if there is a need for accelerated development in a field of study or in an aspect of public work, then the government has a right (and I would say a responsibility) to provide extra incentive for people to go into that field as opposed to something else. So if an Obama administration decides to put a premium on research for renewable energy projects and educational outreach by putting an extra premium on volunteers ti the clean energy corps, I’m all for it.
July 8th, 2008 at 1:34 pmAre “opt out” forms for the military obtaining the data of students slavery?
July 8th, 2008 at 1:36 pmWhy do we still read about these stupid bastards?
Thx
July 8th, 2008 at 1:49 pmThe “burden” is simple: required service to get a loan or grant. There’s are reasons that judges require community service for some criminals, and not because it’s ONLY a good thing. It’s to take away some of their freedom.
Those who can work, but don’t, ARE leeches. And besides, I am talking about a group, not engaging in sophomoric insults about this person or that person. You may think Jonah Goldberg is a moron, but he has, you know, written a book, got it published by a reputable publisher, and sold quite a few copies to a audience interested in ideas. They may be bad ideas, but this all should be about ideas. He is also willing to promulgate his views and argue for them. And, as far as I know, he has never engaged in the kind of vulgar individual ad hominem attacks so prevalent on this board.
A person VOLUNTEERS for the National Guard. It is not compulsory or contingent service. If you don’t want to shoot or get shot out, don’t join the military (though the recent largest re-enlistment in history in Saddam’s palace proves we have folks who, thankfully, don’t mind either).
July 8th, 2008 at 1:59 pmOh we get in now minarchist. Jonah is free to express his opinion because you agree with his politics. But we should shut up because we don’t agree with your side. And if you’re looking for a group of people to be against Planned Parenthood you are definitely in the wrong neighborhood.
July 8th, 2008 at 2:03 pmShayne, where did I say you should “shut up?”
Au contraire…talk away. But don’t expect me, or a fairly large swath of the American public to necessarily agree with you.
Goldberg IS free to express his opinion, even if you don’t like it. So are you.
Finally I am NOT looking for people to be against Planned Parenthood (in fact, I have contributed to them in the past, and deducted it on my taxes).
July 8th, 2008 at 2:12 pmThat’s Largest re-enlistment ceremony. 1,215 military members re-enlisted. That’s less than 1% currently in Iraq.
Also, a person may volunteer for service but a stop loss order forces them to stay. What’s Mr. Goldberg’s thought on that?
July 8th, 2008 at 2:14 pmYes, Wonder, I was thinking about that just this morning. Can you spell ’social promotion?’ As a long-time volunteer math tutor for my local school district, I’ve always believed that the issue wasn’t nearly as clear-cut as politicians would have us believe. Being held back is a heavy burden for a kid to carry, and it sticks with him for the rest of his school career; but being promoted without mastering skills is a nearly insurmountable barrier to future achievement. There isn’t any simple answer to the problem of children who fail to learn.
My position is hardening, though. It’s awful watching these sons of privilege flounder around in jobs they thought they were entitled to, but for which they have no objective qualifications. They definitely provide an argument for ending social promotion altogether, and retroactively.
July 8th, 2008 at 2:16 pmThe “burden” is simple: required service to get a loan or grant. There’s are reasons that judges require community service for some criminals, and not because it’s ONLY a good thing. It’s to take away some of their freedom.
Good job completely misrepresenting the 13th amendment. I would ask you, who is being punished by being offered $4k to work in fields that serve the public interest at a pay rate that most would find quite enviable? A burden would be charging people for NOT serving, which is clearly not the case here.
A person VOLUNTEERS for the National Guard. It is not compulsory or contingent service.
A volunteer to the National Guard gets lots of benefits that are contingent on their continued service
http://www.dod.state.ga.us/pages/airgrdbenefits.html
And, as far as I know, he has never engaged in the kind of vulgar individual ad hominem attacks so prevalent on this board.
July 8th, 2008 at 2:17 pmhttp://mediamatters.org/items/200802250008?f=s_search
Does comparing someone to Hitler because they give good speeches qualify as an ad hominem?
Again, forgive my effrontery, but doesn’t the National Guard also come with benefits? And aren’t those benefits contingent upon completing service?
So you’re comparing two situations, both of them voluntary, both of them with benefits contingent upon completing service, yet for some reason you see one as “taking away freedom” and the other is voluntary. Odd reasoning indeed.
Also, I fully understand that you think calling an individual a “fat slob” is unkind but calling a group “leeches” is somehow justified, because you see it that way. What I don’t understand is why you make the distinction at whether the target is plural or singular.
Or perhaps it is because one is privileged and the other, impoverished? I’m trying to understand here.
On the plus side, I’m relieved to learn that calling a group of people “leeches” is not “name-calling”. I’m just puzzled as to why. I need to know so that I don’t make the same mistake that some posters here have made, but minarchist clearly has not.
July 8th, 2008 at 2:18 pmIf you don’t want to shoot or get shot out, don’t join the military (though the recent largest re-enlistment in history in Saddam’s palace proves we have folks who, thankfully, don’t mind either).
I don’t think that you’ll find very many active duty military members who WANT to get shot at and fewer and fewer who find any thrill in shooting, minarch.
But your ‘they volunteered to get shot at’ attitude is very telling…
July 8th, 2008 at 2:20 pmAcross the country hundreds of high schools and universities have made the completion of community service hours mandatory for students to fulfill their graduation requirements. Most programs require students to complete 40-60 hours of community service outside of school.Opponents of mandatory community service in schools have made the same arguments Goldberg has– they say it’s unconstitutional.
There have been several court cases that argue mandatory service violates a student’s 13th Amendment right against involuntary servitude by forcing them to work without pay. They also argue, that in some cases, it can violate students First Amendment rights by forcing them to engage in service that is contrary to their beliefs. Neither of the arguments have been upheld, and none of the challenges to mandatory community service have been successful. (See: Herndon v. Chapel Hill-Carrboro City Board of Education, Immediato v. Rye Neck School District, and Steirer v. Bethlehem Area School District)
Furthermore, the government has been providing educational awards for domestic service for some time now. I received one myself after successful completion of 1 year of service through Americorps. It paid for my first semester of graduate school, which in turn allowed me to only work part-time and concentrate on my classes. My grades where then better, and I was able to secure alternative funding the following semester. I believe Obama has crafted both strong education and national service policy, unlike President Bush and the republicans who have paid patriotic lip service to national service while cutting community programs and squandering Americans desire to serve domestically following 9/11.
July 8th, 2008 at 2:29 pmYou have done enough. Have you no sense of decency, Pantload, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?
July 8th, 2008 at 2:36 pmI stopped getting the LA Times when they hired this idiot and and got rid of Robert Scheer some years ago.
July 8th, 2008 at 3:19 pmImagine my surprise when I picked up the paper a few weeks ago and found he’s still employed.
I wrote to the editor originally and I wrote again this past time - and received no reply. Is it any wonder the Times has to keep laying people off?
Oh, I love this site!
Again, forgive my effrontery, but doesn’t the National Guard also come with benefits? And aren’t those benefits contingent upon completing service?
~ralph the wonder llama
Also, I was under the impression those who join the National Guard are required to complete their service.
Even if originally voluntary, National Guard members cannot simply get up and leave. Certainly not those who were sent by Pres bush to fight his pet war of choice in Iraq.
It’s laughable that the concern troll would have you believe Obama’s plan limits people’s freedom, but the Guard is 100%, no-strings-attached voluntary service. Right. And the WMD were found in Iraq. Sure.
July 8th, 2008 at 3:28 pmWell I must say I am learning a bit more than I realized when I first posted that “Mandatory Service” is against the Constitution.
I have since watched the debate go from it is to it is not Mandatory.
Apparently incentives are offered to do this inappropriately named “volunteer” service.
While I do know the details of all of this it sounds like it is indeed voluntary but their is payment involved.
This sounds like work for pay. What’s the voluntary thing about? Choosing this as your job?
The devil is in the details.
I am very wary of Liberals and Progressives legislating behavior. It is a free country you know.
Of course I would rather live with Socialists than what we have today - fascism. If your going to trash the Constitution, might as well do it for Socialist cause rather than fascist causes (the Cheney administration).
July 8th, 2008 at 3:30 pmRemember: The right side is serious and thoughtful - according to them. The progressives are DFH, hell bent on bringing democracy and order back to the country. We all know these things, but which voice gets put on a major newspaper? Is it the ’serious’ experts - who have been monumentally wrong about everything, or the proved correct DFH?
Of course, it is the ’serious’, and hugely wrong, right side voices. Thats stands as balance in todays beltway village.
July 8th, 2008 at 3:32 pmdidn’t folks in the Viet Nam era try the same dodge to get out of the draft ?
July 8th, 2008 at 3:45 pmWouldn’t Compulsory Schooling then be slavery ?
I can hear cheers from every middle school in America !
July 8th, 2008 at 3:46 pmMapleStreet Says:
Wouldn’t Compulsory Schooling then be slavery ?
July 8th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
—-
Interesting thought. I wonder if Jonah ever received any compulsory education?
July 8th, 2008 at 4:26 pmMy guess is that poor Jonah saw compulsory education as the slavery that it is, and escaped the plantation the first chance he got. Before they taught critical thinking, obviously.
What did it matter? His job prospects could only be damaged by education.
July 8th, 2008 at 4:31 pmCan the braindead trolls in this thread wrap their tiny little minds around the concept of a reward -which is basically what these incentives are?
Are they able to understand the concept of tax credit?
Apparently not.
July 8th, 2008 at 4:55 pmWho says it was broken? You? Who are you? Leeches, really? Broader public benifit….really?
Actually it has been one of the most successful programs in American history with tremendous benifits to our society….not the kind you want to see obviously. You are fine with people starving and dying of common disease while you drink your late’ bought with your trust fund money. Really who is the leech?
Second most sucessful program in American history is social security…..suck it up big boy, the days of death and destruction for the helpless will soon end, no thanks to you…..you probably tell folks you are a christain too…
July 8th, 2008 at 4:59 pm“I guess in Obama’s mind it must be a crime to be born….”
No Jonah, but in many people’s minds it was a crime for you to be born.
July 8th, 2008 at 5:01 pmMan, does this guy ever proof read his posts before hitting submit? What is he wary of? A strong economy and qualified managers for federal agencies such as fema, fda, etc.
Oh yeah, its welfare…..that’s breaking our country…..funny, you would have to have 1000 national welfare programs to equal our defense budget…guess which one I think should be cut?
July 8th, 2008 at 5:04 pmIt would appear that national service is for those who lack the foresight to be born into families with political connections and trust funds to be nurtured.
July 8th, 2008 at 5:04 pmWell, on Welfare Reform, BO seems to be all for it, though he was against it before he was for it.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/ politicalradar/ 2008/ 06/ obama-shifts-on.html
Barack Obama aligned himself with welfare reform on Monday, launching a television ad which touts the way the overhaul “slashed the rolls by 80 percent.” Obama leaves out, however, that he was against the 1996 federal legislation which precipitated the caseload reduction.
“I am not a defender of the status quo with respect to welfare,” Obama said on the floor of the Illinois state Senate on May 31, 1997. “Having said that, I probably would not have supported the federal legislation, because I think it had some problems.”
Obama’s transformation from critic to champion of welfare reform is the latest in a series of moves to the center. Since capturing the Democratic nomination, the Obama campaign has altered its stances on Social Security taxes, meeting with rogue leaders without preconditions, and the constitutionality of Washington, D.C.’s, sweeping gun ban.
July 8th, 2008 at 5:43 pmHmmm… an article on a political blog that cites a change from a 1997 position to a 2008 position constitutes a flip-flop, huh?
Jeez. You are desperate.
July 8th, 2008 at 5:56 pmJonah’s whole mindset can be summed up in one sentence: “A fascist is anyone who expects me to act like a grownup.” (Add appropriate whining noises, preferably at book length.)
One can only image what his relationship with his mother is like, behind closed doors.
July 8th, 2008 at 5:57 pmThis guy is a true poster child of the NeoCons; Who, me? Do anything? I just plot to get everyone else to do it, then I can relax and earn money off the results.
Chickenhawks and war-mongers.
July 8th, 2008 at 6:10 pmYep, if Obama keeps changing his positions to more sensible ones, I may have to vote for him!
July 8th, 2008 at 6:44 pmDear Jonah,
Go have another slice of pie and STFU!
July 8th, 2008 at 6:44 pmminarchist Says:
Yep, if Obama keeps changing his positions to more sensible ones, I may have to vote for him!
And if McCain ever makes a coherent statement - about anything - I might consider voting for him - but given the past few months, that ain’t likely.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:48 pmDraft Jonah!
July 9th, 2008 at 12:10 pmDoughy pantload is on Thom Hartmann right now discussing this issue.
July 9th, 2008 at 12:13 pmJonah doesn’t have a sister named Whoopie, does he?
July 9th, 2008 at 12:15 pmJonah may need to be reminded that freedom=responsiblity,
July 9th, 2008 at 2:55 pmmaybe it needs repeating to him over and over…
Jonah who? Never heard of this low life. There’s nothing barbaric about setting a goal and helping out college students who give back to their country. What may be barbaric is being forced to pay for a failing war and listen to scare tactics from Republicans like this idiot.
July 9th, 2008 at 7:10 pm