Conservative Lawyers Urge Bush To Issue ‘Pre-Emptive Pardons’ To Officials Involved In Illegal Programs
Conservative Lawyers Urge Bush To Issue ‘Pre-Emptive Pardons’ To Officials Involved In Illegal Programs
The New York Times reported this weekend that “[f]elons are asking President Bush for pardons and commutations at historic levels as he nears his final months in office, a time when many other presidents have granted a flurry of clemency requests.” However the Times noted that despite commuting Scooter Libby’s prison sentence, applicants “should expect to be disappointed” because Bush “has made little use of his clemency power” compared to past presidents.
Except perhaps if you participated in any illegal activity involving the Bush administration’s controversial counterterrorism programs. According to the Times, “several members of the conservative legal community” in Washington D.C. are urging Bush to issue “pre-emptive pardons” to those involved so as to “not be exposed even to the risk of an investigation and expensive legal bills”:
Such a pardon would reduce the risk that a future administration might undertake a criminal investigation of operatives or policy makers involved in programs that administration lawyers have said were legal but that critics say violated laws regarding torture and surveillance.
Some legal analysts said Mr. Bush might be reluctant to issue such pardons because they could be construed as an implicit admission of guilt. [...]
“The president should pre-empt any long-term investigations,” said Victoria Toensing, who was a Justice Department counterterrorism official in the Reagan administration. “If we don’t protect these people who are proceeding in good faith, no one will ever take chances.”
Stuart Taylor, Jr., a constitutional law fellow at Brookings, agrees, saying in a recent Newsweek column that investigations into the Bush administration’s “high level ‘war crimes’” are a “bad idea” and instead called for a “truth commission“:
A criminal investigation would only hinder efforts to determine the truth, and preclude any apologies. It would spur those who know the most to take the Fifth. Any prosecutions would also touch off years of partisan warfare. [...]
Absent pardons, pressure to go after GOP “war criminals” would make it very hard to unite Americans of all stripes behind solutions to the many economic and social challenges facing the country.
In fact, the conservative D.C. lawyer circuit may just get its wish. The White House “would not say whether the administration was considering pre-emptive pardons, nor whether it would rule them out.” (HT: Dan Froomkin)
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Shorter Bush: Go forth and sin some more.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:06 pm“Begging your pardon, sir…”
“Oh, alright. You’re pardoned.”
“But you don’t know what I did.”
“Doesn’t matter. Wait until I tell you what I did…”
July 21st, 2008 at 10:09 pmHow the fsck is this even legal?
July 21st, 2008 at 10:13 pmI have no doubt that Bush will pardon anyone who might be bothered by excessive legal bills. It’s all about their precious money. Victoria Toensing is an apologist of the first order and she needs to be investigated herself.
Pardon me, but I think millions of people will take great exception to a pardon for KKKarl or the Dick. There are many others, who if they were now under impeachment, couldn’t be pardoned. But of course, Pelosi will stand in the way. Call me fried.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:15 pmI don’t remember Saddam Hussein, who was supported by Reagan’s administration during the Iran-Iraq war and supplied him various with chemical weapons which he used on Iranians and Kurds, getting a pardon for HIS war crimes, do you?
I don’t recall any US politicians insisting that Slobodan Milosevic be pardoned so that “the truth” could be properly discovered instead of being hidden, do you?
July 21st, 2008 at 10:17 pmThey make me want to take my American flag and hide it. I’m ashamed of the continued abuse of power and law breaking.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:19 pm“The president should pre-empt any long-term investigations,” said Victoria Toensing, who was a Justice Department counterterrorism official in the Reagan administration. “If we don’t protect these people who are proceeding in good faith, no one will ever take chances.”
“Take chances”? On what, Vicky? On getting caught breaking the law? because there should never have been any question that these people broke the law, so on what were they taking chances?
Absent pardons, pressure to go after GOP “war criminals” would make it very hard to unite Americans of all stripes behind solutions to the many economic and social challenges facing the country.
With all due respect, Mr. Taylor, there are some people in this country who I don’t want standing behind my back. And most of them have been standing behind this president’s back. And some of them are standing behind McCain’s back right now.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:20 pm“If we don’t protect these people who are proceeding in good faith, no one will ever take chances.”
Even in her ‘argument’ for wholesale pardons, Ms. Toensing’s words “take chances” negates the idea of “good faith” innocence. Particularly in the telecoms cases: Qwest’s lawyers said ‘no’ because they believed that it was unConstitutional. And they were right.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:26 pmIf we accept that ANY President can exercise ultimate “decidin’” and all acts become “legal” with the knowledge that “pardons all around” will cover any actions seals the complete loss of any pretense of “Democracy” . . . why bother with elections, decrees will do – seems to have worked under Bush . . .
July 21st, 2008 at 10:30 pmDoesn’t any of this cross the line into Obstruction of Justice at some point?
July 21st, 2008 at 10:30 pmCan he pardon himself?
July 21st, 2008 at 10:31 pmBush’s legacy is already one on par with Nixon, what’s the issue with one more open sore on the body politic? Bush can pardon all he wants–his whole tenure has been one crime and cover-up after another–but history will not be kind to war criminals like him.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:32 pmZooey Says:
“…Doesn’t matter. Wait until I tell you what I did…”
July 21st, 2008 at 10:09 pm
Zooey, if you don’t mind, I’d like to offer a minor variation: “…It can’t be as bad as what I did!”
July 21st, 2008 at 10:32 pmBushHater Says:
Can he pardon himself?
July 21st, 2008 at 10:31 pm
Not even Nixon dared try to do that. But my own fear is that Bush will pardon Cheney for any and all crimes he may have committed (in or out of office, as Bush will “forget” to stipulate that it was while serving as VP, just like Ford did for Nixon) on Jan 19, 2009, and then he will resign his presidency effective immediately. Cheney will take the “Oath” of Office, and then, during his one-day presidency, he will give Bush the same kind of pardon. And there’s nothing anybody can do about it as long as they remain in office until then.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:35 pmWhats to worry about if you’ve done nothing wrong? We let these bastards off 80’s (Iran-Contra) and the 90’s (BCCI)….if we do it again, the next time struggle back and recover, they’ll be back to kill this country for good. Time for some serious justice and accountability to be applied to the war criminals and the war profiteers.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:41 pmWayne A. Schneider Says:
Doesn’t any of this cross the line into Obstruction of Justice at some point?
Well, sure, but only if you have an impartial judiciary.
Wait, isn’t impartiality the basis of justice?
Sorry, asked and answered my own question.
PEACE
July 21st, 2008 at 10:44 pmPardon my Bush, sounds like something I’d say to a foreign acquaintance.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:48 pm“The president should pre-empt any long-term investigations,” said Victoria Toensing, who was a Justice Department counterterrorism official in the Reagan administration. “If we don’t protect these people who are proceeding in good faith, no one will ever take chances.”
I think she meant that if they don’t protect the law breakers no one will ever want to break the law again. What a novel idea.
In this country if you, for example, smoke the crack that the government allowed to be brought into this country you end up in a penitentiary for a long time. But if you violate the constitutional rights of those you’ve sworn to serve you end up a highly paid lobbiest.
http://progressiveworldreview.com
July 21st, 2008 at 10:50 pm” a future administration might undertake a criminal investigation of operatives or policy makers involved in programs that administration lawyers have said were legal but that critics say violated laws regarding torture and surveillance. ”
Geez and I thought when the legality of policy or action is questioned it can be and often is argued through the court system.
This pre-emptive pardoning crap isn;t just an attempt to keep likely criminals out of jail, it’s an attempt to prevent any investigation and to sideline the judicial system.
If these administration lawyers arguments are so effing good that they can assure high officials all the way down to the minions that torture is A-OK, then they can damn well make their case in court!
And if the judges opinions go against them the officials can say it;s the lawyers fault!
And the judges can then say “ignorance of the law is no excuse”.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:58 pmDick Morris seemed overly-coked up tonight on Fox. He’s really afraid of Obama, called him a socialist. I think this is code for “Negro”.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:07 pmIf we want America`s good name restored the SHRUB shouldn’t`t be allowed to pardon anyone else no matter what.Ti`s time for Pelosi to strap on the BRASS and stick it to the Fascist PIGS on the right………
July 21st, 2008 at 11:08 pmOh, well if Ken Starr crony Stuart Taylor says we should pardon a whole bunch of people to avoid messy disagreements, then Bush definitely should not pardon anyone.
Stuart Taylor says the nation can’t stand all that justice of bringing torturers to the bar. But the same guy was knee deep in blow job politics.
More on hypocrite Stuart Taylor:
July 21st, 2008 at 11:19 pmhttp://www.slate.com/id/2085/
http://www.observer.com/node/40428
http://www.observer.com/node/40386
Technical question…if IMPEACHMENT charges are filed in the HOUSE, does that NOT prevent Bush for issuing Pardons for anyone who may be involved in the crimes surrounding those charges? Kucinich laundry list should apply here…
Just fricken charge him already…prevent any pardons.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:27 pmSorry for the OT, but, Wikipedia ran an article on a BBC documentary called The Power of Nightmares. It will never be broadcast in this country but the whole three hours is on YouTube. It is, far and away, the best examination of the origins of the “war” between neocons and whoever they hate at the moment.
The Wiki article is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares
And the first YouTube installment is here:
July 21st, 2008 at 11:31 pmhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjY_E7bYDVw
Conservative Lawyers Urge Bush To Issue ‘Pre-Emptive Pardons’ To Officials Involved In Illegal Programs»
And I suppose We the People who have also been ‘Shocked and Awed’ by the gangsters that have taken over the White House, now see this attitude as business as usual. Is there no hope… where is Reid and Pelosi?
In order to begin the healing process of our country and others around the world…
July 21st, 2008 at 11:32 pm
pete…
I watched Nightmares last year (?) ages ago anyway.
A great site is “The Dossier”–tons of brilliant documentaries, investigative journalism and brilliant and extremely well informed satire by John Bird.
P.S. I’ve been really enjoying your longer comments on some of the other threads. Smart stuff.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:43 pmWhat are we supposed to do with the anger accumulated over this continued crime of every degree including mass murder from this thug administration? We hopelessly watch Pelosi illegally take impeachment off the table… Let us not forget
Looking the other way, having no hope and waiting for the next administration to do better is not healthy.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:45 pmAHEM,
The Hauge cares not for our pardons.
Off to the ICC for WAR CRIMES, the bunch of ya.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:49 pmIf BushitCo issues pardons, they’re only good for a get out of prosecution in the US..
Nothing about Den Hague.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:51 pmhere’s a to the serious videos http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk/video_iraqwar.htm
and for the amazingly informed hilarious stuff, look for ” Bird and Fortune ” on the Dossier site or Google video that name
the best are on the Iraq War and the Sub-Prime Market ( also on the British Army). The subprime one is breathtaking in that it explains how the subprime market worked and what it scam it was but it was made practically BEFORE anyone here in the US had even heard of it.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:51 pmIf the repugs abuse the 5th can they be charge with contempt?
Will the “pre-emptive” pardons (another ridiculous term) include their names or is it fill-in the blanks?
The House’s job is to defend the constitution. If they can’t do their job then they are complcite in the repugs crimes. I can stand a long criminal investigation.
What the hell if chimpy can give up 5 yrs of golf the least the House can do is to take at least 5 yrs to put crooks in jail. We have a time horizon.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:52 pmAnd BTW, you cannot pardon TREASON.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:54 pmbumpkis,
July 21st, 2008 at 11:59 pmUnfortunately, the President has full powers until actually convicted and removed from office. It is one of the holes in the balance of powers created by technology. When the Constitution was written, it took weeks to carry a message across the Atlantic. Now it takes mere hours to deliver a devastating strike against a foe half a world away without Congressional involvement.
From what I have heard, Bush will lose all powers of pardon if going through impeachment and/or is indicted. Also, could it be Conyers will look at Kucinich’s article of impeachment later this week.. heard something of this today on AAR. Never get my hopes up anymore.
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:07 am5th Estate Says:
July 21st, 2008 at 11:43 pm
July 21st, 2008 at 11:51 pm
Thanx for the link and kind words. I try to do what I can.
My dad always said I was good at spotting obscure connections. Of course he also said I have a knack for “making the unpleasant sound downright excruciating” and “tripping on my foreskin”. He was pretty damn smart himself.
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:26 amHi Jim
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:42 amJim Wilke Says: Reapeatedly moronic shit.
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:43 am.
Preemptive Pardons…?
Pardoned for what offense or criminal act…
They now have legal immunity!
To pardon is to excuse a criminal offense committed. Is Victoria Toensing asserting a crime WAS committed that needs a pardon? REALLY!!!! What is that crime Vickie…?
Q U E S T I O N:
WHY HAS QWEST NOT BEEN SUED BY THE ADMINISTRATION TO COMPLY WITH THEIR DIRECTIVE TO ASSIST IN SPYING ON AMERICAN CITIZENS…?
… Perhaps Qwest was obeying the law and a lawsuit would easily be defended and expose the crime syndicate for what THEY(sic) are… THEY(sic) WHO HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOMS AND SEEK TO UNDERMINE AND UNDO AMERICAN’S RIGHTS, FREEDOMS and LIBERTIES!
QUESTION FOR THE PEOPLE
HOW MUCH ARE YOU WILLING TO FORSAKE FOR THIS FALSE SENSE OF SECURITY? WHAT DO YOU DESERVE? WHEN WILL YOU KNOW THAT YOU’VE HAD ENOUGH? HOW MANY MORE ELECTIONS ARE YOU WILLING TO B!TCH ABOUT BEFORE YOU DEMAND YOUR VOTE BE COUNTED PROPERLY? WHEN WILL YOU BE WILLING TO ACTUALLY SPILL YOUR BLOOD FOR YOUR COUNTRY?
.
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:47 amI don’t care if chimpy gave out the Medal of Honor. Pardons and medals mean nothing in this reckless admin to me. They’ll still be crooks and liars.
I hope when they present their damn piece of papers it will not be worth the paper its printed on.
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:48 amSuch blanket, pre-emptive pardons will open the door for INTERNATIONAL WAR CRIMES TRIBUNALS.
One of the prerequisites for international jurisdiction is clear and convincing evidence that the individual’s own country is unwilling or unable to conduct domestic tribunals for war crimes committed by the individual. Should Bush issue such pardons, that would be conclusive evidence as to that issue.
Anyone Bush issues such a pardon to would be subject to universal jurisdiction. And ‘merika has already established a precedent of kidnapping individuals around the globe and holding them indefinitely without charges….these people are going to have to watch their backs for the rest of their lives – and so will their children and grandchildren. Karma is patient, and her debt will be repaid.
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:59 amUm Jim? Bill Clinton is no longer President and never will be again. Chimpy, however, is still in office and just may be able to give his new partner in crime, McPander Bear, the Presidency. This would be a tragedy of epic proportions and could very well be the final chapter in the Great American Experiment.
Though, even if the Republicriminals hold the White House, a Democratic super majority just might be able to mitigate some of the damage.
July 22nd, 2008 at 1:00 am(R) after the name is enough to warrant a pardon. They are all crooked bastards.
July 22nd, 2008 at 1:01 amJim Wilke Says:
How many criminals were pardoned in the Nixon, Reagan, Bush I administrations? How many of those thugs are wanting to be pardoned again by this crime family.
Get your sh!t straight, Jim. The rethuglicans hold the record.
July 22nd, 2008 at 1:06 amHey Jim,
July 22nd, 2008 at 1:20 amHow many “inside of his administration” pre-ordained criminals did Clinton pardon? Hmmmm? None.
Where were the truth commissions when you guys (the government) spent the past 20 years locking up almost two million african americans, mostly on non-violent offenses. Where was the truth commission to expose the Reagan administration and CIA’s direct involvement in sending drugs into urban cities in the 80’s, which the government then used to justify the “War on Drugs” and that resulting 2million+ incarcerated.
We need NUREMBURG. Imagine a “truth commission” exposing the Bush administration designing, orchestrating, and carrying out the 9/11 attacks..and then letting them all go! Thats not all. The same folks who brought you 9/11 were also responsible for the Bali attacks, the london 7/7 attacks, the Madrid bombing, and a host of other attacks we don’t even know about. The global community would DEMAND war crimes trials. The people at the top should go to jail. The little guys who were following orders, yes I could see them maybe getting some kind of public mark on their car license or house and life parole, but there are people at the top who knowingly orchestrated the deaths of thousands..of Americans. This ain’t the kinda place that forgives something like that. Come on America….make us proud…
July 22nd, 2008 at 1:22 amThe very same CONservatives who gave Clinton hell for his pardons…especially to Marc Rich…
How rich and how ironic, oh maybe not ironic, they are conservatives devoid of principle after all…
July 22nd, 2008 at 2:07 amOf course conservatives are hoping for pardons but so are the Democrats in Washington. That way they won’t have to keep saying that impeachment is off the table because they allowed the President to take the table.
It’s fantasy to think that any criminal charges are going to be brought against anyone in the Bush admin. It just isn’t going to happen. We can all thank the Republicans AND the Democrats for that.
July 22nd, 2008 at 2:26 amYES, the House Judiciary Committee can stop pardons just by STARTING impeachment hearings. They don’t have to actually issue articles of impeachment, vote on them, or have a trial in the Senate. This also lets Pelosi off the hook, because she can say “impeachMENT” is off the table, not investigation. It’s a win-win. But will they do it? Probably not. The other thing is, since these guys are so averse to admitting fault, a pardon is de facto an admission of guilt from the pardoned. And it doesn’t look good for Bush to take such a craven act, but I fully expect it from him. The difference between this and Clinton pardoning Mr. Rich is that Mr. Rich WASN’T A CO-CONSPIRATOR with the pardoner.
July 22nd, 2008 at 2:45 amStill confused Jim?
Once again, the actions of past administrations don’t mitigate the scandals of the current one. Also, I’m pretty sure that previous Presidents, with the exception of Ford’s pardon of Nixon, have not handed out preemptive pardons to administration officials. And I’m dead certain that no past President has been offered a list of people to pardon in order to ensure their silence and prevent civil litigation.
July 22nd, 2008 at 3:00 amI posted this on another site but it fits here.
I am a new member and registered to post this.
Gun
Whoever takes over for Herr Bush(feel sorry for him) after the next election has got the work cut out.
1) To reapir a failing US Local economy
2) To repair the rep of the US in World View..
Not trying to flame anything here..but the actions of the private contractors
(and what the hell are private contractors interogating prosiners for anyway..but that aniother fish to fry)
in Abu Ghraib and the inaction(and actions) of the military personel there who were supposed to be protecting the POW as well as guarding POW…refer to Vietnam for mistreatment experience of POW and sometimes how effective it was and how Commanders know this in gather intelligence.
(waterboarding was a normal and effictive tatic of the NVA…showing my age here)
Also as well shipping them to Gitmo for interrogation instead of a Military Base in the US(where they would have had rights the second they touched US soil..as POW instead of “Enemy Combatants”) did more moral damage to future Americans in a War Situation than anything else… “waterboarding” actions aside”
Lets say for example we have a WW III…what is to stop the “enemy” from using these tatics …we did… womens panties on the head of a Muslim or dominance by a woman over a man is so unclean as to deny them admittance to “Heaven”( I am generalizing here for laymen)…that is just cold blooded toture
<>Example of the oppisite extreme here…someone said to a Catholic that Mary was a whore before she had Jesus(end hypothosize there)
3) Social Security and the other normal “background noise” they have to look at at least.
4) Enviromentialists concerns..Global Warming…ect…carbon emissions
I am just glad that it is not me running for all this stress…give me a large computer network and I can walk you thru it as I would show you my tattoos
July 22nd, 2008 at 4:44 amSorry My typing is rough…it is 5am
July 22nd, 2008 at 4:48 amwhy does bush just start handing out get out of jail cards as christmas gifts
July 22nd, 2008 at 5:08 amI really don’t think this will hold up. The minute Bush is out of office, any pre-emptive pardons he might have issued won’t be worth the paper they’re printed on.
July 22nd, 2008 at 5:15 am*clears my throat*
July 22nd, 2008 at 5:22 am[official newscaster voice]
“Bush was then quoted saying, ‘Screw that! I’m pardoning myself!’”
Please, Bush, use the same clemency you granted the inmates in the death row when you were Governor!
July 22nd, 2008 at 7:09 amronguell Says:
IT’S A WAR!!!!!
July 22nd, 2008 at 6:40 am
Congress has NEVER declared a war. So, no, it’s not a war.
July 22nd, 2008 at 7:18 amDon’t you have to be convicted of a crime first before you can be pardoned? I can see this as an admission of guilt as well as an admission of knowing they should not have been engaging in the questionable activities to start with.
July 22nd, 2008 at 7:50 amronguell Says:
Congress voted to support it. What would you call voting to support it? Semi-declaring? Almost-declaring? Silly boy.
July 22nd, 2008 at 7:39 am
You don’t know the proper proceedings in your own political system to declare a war, but I’m the silly boy?
A declaration of war has a precise format, and the Patriot Act NEVER doesn’t fit that format, because a declaration of war defines both rights and OBLIGATIONS of the CiC, and Bush wasn’t willing to be restricted in any way back in 2003.
July 22nd, 2008 at 7:51 amronguell Says:
July 22nd, 2008 at 7:44 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Powers_Resolution
The War Powers Act of 1973 (Pub.L. 93-148), also referred to as the War Powers Resolution, is a resolution of the Congress of The United States of America that stated that the President of The United States of America can send troops into action abroad only by authorization of Congress or if the United States of America is already under attack or serious threat. The War Powers Act requires that the president notify Congress within 48 hours of committing troops to military action and forbids troops from remaining for more than 60 days without an authorization of force or a declaration of war.
July 22nd, 2008 at 8:01 amWhy is this “legal”?
I think there should be a movement to BAN pardons.
A pardon is basically a “get out of jail free” card….literally.
As we see with immunity given to law breakers by those we elect to represent us, something needs to be done.
What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
I do not care if the “powerful people” get away with murder and breaking laws, I call for all people to do the same things they do….just do it more secretively!!!!
Corey Mondello
July 22nd, 2008 at 8:07 amBoston, Massachusetts
http://www.CoreyMondello.com
7-22-08
awww, poor little scared ronguell
shorter ronguell: “I’m too scared to be free! take my rights please!”
Republicans are such sissies.
July 22nd, 2008 at 8:08 amHow could Bush pull this off you might ask. Well, it is spelled out pretty well right here.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Time%20for%20change/337
Good old-fashioned corruption can do wonders when in the right hands.
July 22nd, 2008 at 8:21 amIf Bush pardons all these people, could any of them are lawyers, be dis-barred?
July 22nd, 2008 at 8:25 amWhy are right wingers such sissies?
Is it just that they watch too much tv and listen to too much AM radio that is always telling them they need to be afraid?
July 22nd, 2008 at 8:27 amronguell Says:
OK children. Lets start from the beginning. What law was broken? Comeback!
July 22nd, 2008 at 8:23 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preventive_war
Criticism
July 22nd, 2008 at 8:33 amLegal scholars generally agree that preventive war is not legally distinct from aggression, “the supreme crime” in international law. Commentators as diverse as Dwight Eisenhower and Noam Chomsky have argued that accepting one preventive war would open the floodgates to all preventive wars, reducing the world to “the law of the jungle”. Critics argue this ‘war-at-will’ society creates an environment where war can be easily justified.
hey ronguell, BOO!
now go clean out your pants and grow a pair
if you’re too cowardly to live in the Land of the Free and Home of the Brave, then take your pansy quivering self to some authoritarian country that you can feel safe in.
i am sooo sick of these right wing cowards
July 22nd, 2008 at 8:33 amIf it was, you’d be lost. The kindergarten classroom is down the hall. Try to keep your diaper dry on the way, coward.
July 22nd, 2008 at 8:35 amronguell Says:
also….”or if the United States of America is already under attack or serious threat.” Thanks again.
July 22nd, 2008 at 8:30 am
Too bad the USA used a terrorist group in Afghanistan without any connection with Iraq to begin hostile actions agaist the later as an excuse, contravening international law, international law that bonds the USA, because international law becomes USA law, as the USA is signatory of such treaties. Oh, sorry that your “high school” education doesn’t grasp this.
July 22nd, 2008 at 8:39 amWronguell, the legallity for the conflict of Iraq is at best, foggy, and if we are realist, its d#mned illegal, and accomplished in the interest of Bush and his cronies, both economical and political, not the nation’s one.
But you’re a puppet, and enjoy it, isn’t?
July 22nd, 2008 at 8:45 amThe Busheviki will ALL walk.
July 22nd, 2008 at 8:50 amPardons will be unnecessary.
Even with BHO in the ShiteHouse, these vicious, murdering rascist fathermuckers will walk.
Why?
1) No newly seated President is going to set the dire precedent of beiung the First Preznint to prosecute her/her predecessor. That’s a gayronTEE that the sam treatment will be visited upon them.
2) Blanket pardons. The Chimp can pardon ANYONE for ANYTHING and there is NOTHING anybody can do about it.
3) The sonorities of “We Must Look Foreward,” that great hymn of political expiation, will toll from the very bell-towers of DC on Inauguration Day.
no, wronguell, people like you that support the destruction of American ideals just to make you FEEL safer are the TRUE COWARDS
You make me sick, you pathetic little wimp.
Why are you convinced that AMERICA is too weak to defeat a few rag tag “terrorists” without resorting to “war” (illegal invasion and occupation)?
Why are you such a sissy?
July 22nd, 2008 at 8:57 amIt is on the record that Bush, in a meeting with Tony Blair, suggested a plan to paint a spy plane in UN colors and provoke Saddam into shooting it down in order to use the incident as justification for war. This one fact, by itself, makes George W. Bush guilty of 1st degree murder of more than 4100 US service members.
The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder
There is one criminal that George W. Bush cannot pardon. Himself.
July 22nd, 2008 at 9:08 amRongie, why are we in Iraq?
July 22nd, 2008 at 9:17 amRUCerious Says:
Rongie, why are we in Iraq?
Because the Iraqis hijacked those planes on 9/11?
July 22nd, 2008 at 9:22 amwe’re waiting for you to get bored and leave
July 22nd, 2008 at 9:41 amThe Corporate Fascists that gave us unending war based on that false flag incident, 911, are destined to burn in hell for their sins.
Despite that fact we should investigate, impeach and indict.
Of course that will not happen as the power in this country is with said Corporate fascists.
Guess we have to go thru what the Germans did.
Why does history repeat itself all the time?
July 22nd, 2008 at 9:43 amronguell Says:
——————————————————————————–
IT’S A WAR!!!!! Liberals seem to view the Constitution as a suicide pact. There is only one war crime commited associated with 911. William Jefferson Blythe Clinton’s neglect in office caused 911 to happen. He knows it. That is why he sent, signed a letter of authorization, Sandy Burgler to the archives to steal alter and destroy certain 911 documents. Imagine a Republican former president getting caught doing that. Media bias? Liberalism is a cancer.
This man is a Dittohead fascist traitor. He supports torturing of prisoners, false flag incidents, attacking countries for Corporate profits, warrantless wire-tapping of Americans, trashing the Constitution and many many other crimes against humanity.
He is no better than a Nazi of the 1930’s.
He and millions of angry white christian Dittoheads started this Corporate Fascism movement and they will have a hard time at the pearly gates.
July 22nd, 2008 at 9:52 amThank the lord, there are no fascists in heaven!
What makes you think I am a Bill Clinton fan?
What does he have to do with you being a Dittohead (synonomous with the word fascist).?
You Dittoheads support fascist ideals because your Mentor, Rush, fills you full of hate and makes you do stupid shit.
911 was an inside job and most Americans are aware of this fact.
According to the new New York Times/CBS News poll, only 16% of Americans think the government is telling the truth about 9/11 and the intelligence prior to the attacks:
“Do you think members of the Bush Administration are telling the truth, are mostly telling the truth but hiding something, or are they mostly lying?
Telling the truth 16%
Hiding something 53%
Mostly lying 28%
Not sure 3%”
The 84% figure mirrors other recent polls on the same issue. A Canadian Poll put the figure at 85%. A CNN poll had the figure at 89%. Over 80% supported the stance of Charlie Sheen when he went public with his opinions on 9/11 as an inside job.
You Dittoheads can deny this shit but the rest of us know.
So do the world a favor fascist, Jump off a cliff and go to hell!
July 22nd, 2008 at 10:01 amThis knucklehead is worried about a couple of scraps of paper, which were found to be of little consequence, and of which there were copies. Meanwhile, he isn’t the least bit concerned about George W. Bush wiretapping his political opponents for 7+ years in violation of the 4th Amendment.
ronguell Says:
It doesnt matter if the piolets of 911 were Iraq born. It’s radical muslim extremists who are the terrorists.
Translation: Brown people must die because I’m afraid.
Get help you sick bastard.
July 22nd, 2008 at 10:02 amronguell Says:
the wacky lefts…..
Clinton did it……
Sandy Burger….proof if your going to make accusations please
hillary’s crimes..she’s not in the game so why is this relevant?
muslim extremists ……
war was not for oil…..
If I edit out the childish smack talk your comment is left with “I support the destruction of american ideals to feel safe”.
Just a reminder, the topic of the thread is “bush pre-emtive pardons……key word is pre-emtive, you know, like before they are charged.
Any civil discussion about that will be better recieved among the thinking people here who have not been rude to you, yet. If you continue to act like there is nothing wrong with the world today because of actions by the bush administration however, that could change.
we’ve heard all of this bullsh!t before.
July 22nd, 2008 at 10:03 amguess no one here can take you seriously…I know I don’t. Have a nice day.
Bush has to pardon all the criminals in his administration. We can’t afford to build another federal prison.
July 22nd, 2008 at 10:05 amThen they could be compelled to testify without 5th amendment rights and be in jeopardy of perjury if they lie.
July 22nd, 2008 at 10:12 amronguell Says:
Told you why we are in Iraq shoeless. What up?
Yes, and I counted six lies in your list of excuses, and one lie twice.
1. Well it’s not for oil
2. The best place to strike a blow against terrorism
3a. a country that supported terrorism,
4. made wmds,
5. was reforming it’s wmd manufacturing capacity,
6. threw inspectors out
3b. while supporting the terrorism flourishing in the region.
Since you are a liar yourself, you cannot recognize that Bush and his cronys are a bunch of lying criminals.
July 22nd, 2008 at 10:12 amHey Shoeless – did you know the wire-tapping started before 911.
911 was definitely an inside job – no question about that.
I hate Dittoheads!
Most respectable Conservatives will vote for Bob Barr or will not vote.
They know fascists when they see them.
I am sick and tired of the dumbasses who think their government is pure as driven snow.
Yet we are surrounded by these Dittohead fascist types who think Sadam did 911.
It amazes me that people never question anything about this government?
July 22nd, 2008 at 10:14 amCongress should draft a bill that strips the power of Presidents from issuing pardons to people within their Administration or with anyone that has had a private business relationship with anyone in the President’s Administration. The pardoning of anyone involved with the Bush Crime Syndicate would be tantamount to obstruction of justice as was clearly seen in the pardoning of Libby. This buffoon who has run amok through our legal system for almost eight years has used his flunkies in the OLC and Justice Dept.s to bend and twist the definitions of many laws to a point where they no longer resemble the original laws. The spirit of these laws has been twisted into whatever the President’s lawyers decided in order to make illegal actions legal. This legal mess will take years to unravel but it needs to be done with great attention to motive and detail.
July 22nd, 2008 at 10:17 amExcuse me, it has never been done before, by anyone and indicates that they know that they have broken the law and expect someone to point that out……small point that I can understand how you, with such a narrow vision could grasp.
em hmm, like ollie north, poindexter, nixon….those types of sandwiches?
July 22nd, 2008 at 10:23 amGuess you forgot the millions spent by the gop invesigating and destroying people with the whitewater investigations that never found any wrongdoing……got mirror.
What about the impeachement of Bill Clinton…..that was justified….not…..just the gop trying to crush people with their investigative powers.
you have squandered your credibility here and I am done with you. If you post off topic again I will flag your lying ass.
July 22nd, 2008 at 10:29 amronguell Says:
Bush’s pre-emptive legal move will also protect, possibly I’m out of the box now, Our victory in Iraq. Why would I speculate on that?
Because you aren’t very smart, and you don’t mind making a fool of yourself.
July 22nd, 2008 at 10:34 amctcadguy Says:
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Hey Shoeless – did you know the wire-tapping started before 911.
Yes, I know. It is on the Congressional record from testimony by telecom CEOs. It would be very easy to prosecute this case, as no one in the Bush administration even denies this crime any longer.
July 22nd, 2008 at 10:38 amYou still here fascist?
Isn’t time for the Rush Limbaugh show?
I do not have to prove shit to you moron.
Go worship a flag lapel pin or go wrap yourself in a flag or something traitor.
Go to a GOPwarpig website buffoon, this website is for Progessives, not Dittohead fascist types.
Thank God Dittoheads are not allowed in heaven!
July 22nd, 2008 at 10:46 ameveryone agree we should just flag the spammer ronguell?
July 22nd, 2008 at 10:48 amThe reality challenged flying monkey, Wrong-L should honestly cut back on the cocain. It’s been ranting nonsense here all morning, foaming from it’s mouth and has thrown so much of it’s feces around this thread that Faiz is going to have to call in a few extra interns with mops and disinfectant to clean it up. The troll must suffer A.D.D. as it can’t manage to stick to the subject of the thread. It spends so much time with it’s tongue up bush’s ass that they appear to have let it move in to his bubble permanently as it seems to have about as much of a grasp on reality as the Chimp does. It laughably thinks that this president should be able to offer pre-emptive pardons to members of it’s own Administration. What’s the matter wrongy, are you on his pardon list?? Are you getting scared of the prospect of prison for the years you’ve spent adoring the chimp at the expense of our nation? I thought you conservatives supported the rule of law at one time. I guess that’s all over, right? If you can’t do the time don’t do the crime, right wrongy?
July 22nd, 2008 at 10:49 amwronguell, why do you hate the 4th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America?
July 22nd, 2008 at 10:54 amronguell Says:
What law has been broken
U.S. Constitution: Fourth Amendment- Search and Seizure
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
July 22nd, 2008 at 10:58 amMaybe the troll should consider that one of the reasons that Bush WILL NOT end the occupation in Iraq despite all reason is that his lawyers have made him feel that as long as we’re at war, he can disregard the law to his own selfish means. It stands to reason that if you are under the delusion that in a time of war anything the president does is justified legally, why would you end the war? Anyone got a better justification for Herr Bush’s endless occupation? Oil, lucrative contracts for his friends, being a “war president” gives him a boner? Yes, these are all valid reasons for Bush but IMHO covering his own ass is objective # 1! Everything else is just gravy.
July 22nd, 2008 at 11:03 amIt would be a waste of time to list the crimes that have been broken by the Bush Crime Family. I won’t justify the trolls request with a response other than to say that you could ask virtually any Senator, Congressman, pundit, newsman or average American if Bush has commited any crimes and even the staunchest Republicans will give you a sneer or a chuckle and say yes. It’s no secret troll, no matter what bubble you surround yourself in, this Administration is corrupt to the core. It is a blight on our nation that has pulled out all stops to thwart any oversight. I’ll use your master’s own assertion that if you have done nothing wrong then you have nothing to hide. Then why exactly are they trying to hide everything they have done??????? A pre-emptive pardon implies guilt. Retroactive immunity implies guilt. This Presidents actions and words imply guilt. I’m certain that if a true investigation were to be undertaken it wouldn’t take long to find the proof of many various crimes, considering that despite this Administrations award winning secrecy, the evidence is right there for the world to see. All it will take is an Attorney General that cares more about the law than they care about protecting a corrupt president.
July 22nd, 2008 at 11:15 amI think the average American is much more aware of the price of gasoline, heating/cooling, utilities in general, health care crisis, etc. than they are about these pardons and hopefully that will be enough to wake them up and see the rest of what has been going on…….
republicans can rest assured that thier little run is just about over……they better start planning for much further down the road. It is over for them and they have no one to blame but themselves.
July 22nd, 2008 at 11:25 amronguell Says:
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I support the 4th.
No you don’t. You support Bush. It is impossible to support both the Constitution and the foremost violator of the Constitution.
July 22nd, 2008 at 11:33 amDems like Hardon and Rockefeller are complicit in the FISA crimes.
Also the 911 false flag incident was also a crime in which powerful Dems are also complicit.
Rethugs may up to their necks in war crimes, but make no mistake, some powerful Dems are also up to their necks in war crimes as well.
Hence the no impeachment ruling by Pelosi.
These crimes are well known to most in the know. They will all burn in hell for their mortal sins.
The average Dittohead supporter will also burn. Ignorance is no excuse for supporting Mass Murder.
How many Nazi’s made it thru the Pearly Gates – NONE did!
The absolute denial these people are in amazes me.
To this day, old Nazi’s still are trying to deny the holocost ever happened or they are justifying it.
It is no different with the Dittohead fascists.
July 22nd, 2008 at 11:49 amAnd this is the person who was going to restore dignity and accountability to the WH.
Is there any doubt that the rest of the world will look at this and have a much lower opinion of the US of A ?
July 22nd, 2008 at 11:50 amI got into this late, but here’s my two cents on the original topic from before the trolls took over.
“pre-emptive pardons” is an oxymoron. You can’t pardon a crime that hasn’t happened yet. If you could, a president could pardon his whole administration on inauguration day and then go wild. Pardoning someone is an admission of their guilt. He would have to describe what he is pardoning them for. Legally, the president can probably only pardon someone who has been convicted by a court.
Enough already. Impeachment needs to start now.
Article 2, Section 2 of the US Constitution:
“[The President] shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.”
So, since pre-emptive pardoning is nonsense, Bush can’t pardon Cheney or any impeachable staff member if they are impeached and the constitution says they can’t pardon them if they are then convicted.
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:25 pmWhat’s the big deal about having the government listen in on your conversations, read your email or monitor your buying patterns? If you don’t talk to terrorists, or use words that could be construed to imply that you are un-American, what do you have to hide?
And when the government wants to do random car searches to see that I am not smuggling a WMD in the trunk, I am ok with that, because I don’t have anything to hide.
When they come to my house in the middle of the night to see that I don’t have anything illegal stashed somewhere, what’s a little inconvenience when it comes to keeping the piss soaked trolls sleeping sounder?
When they do cavity searches of the family, they sure aren’t going to find anything, because, like wrongashell, I don’t have anything to hide.
It’s a scary world out there folks and there are people out there (brown, Muslim) that want to do us harm. There might have been some in Iraq before the invasion, can you prove that there weren’t? Well can you????
sarc/off
There sure as hell are enemies in Iraq now, thanks to Bush’s War. There are tenfold more people in the world who want to do us harm because of the illegal actions of that smirking POS. He and his sycophant whiners like wrongashell are not Americans. We are stronger and prouder than those weak cowards.
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:30 pmronguell Says:
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:31 pmmccain is the next bob dole. maybe mccain can make some viagra commercials after he spends all of cindy’s money on his fools errand.
Holy crap! A troll exploded. I hope there isn’t anything good buried under the debris.
I would like to take this opportunity to point out that various Bushco members have, apparently, committed crimes which have nothing to do with Iraq. They are equal opportunity Republicriminals.
P.S. Clinton is out of office, so, any damage he did is in the past. Chimpy, on the other hand, has a half a year to screw things up.
July 22nd, 2008 at 1:25 pm——————————————————————————–
RantingTommy Says:
——————————————————————————–
no, wronguell, people like you that support the destruction of American ideals just to make you FEEL safer are the TRUE COWARDS
You make me sick, you pathetic little wimp.
Why are you convinced that AMERICA is too weak to defeat a few rag tag “terrorists” without resorting to “war” (illegal invasion and occupation)?
Why are you such a sissy?
AMEN!
July 22nd, 2008 at 1:31 pmdon’t worry, if bush doesn’t, obama will,
then we can look forward to platitudes like: ‘heal the nation’ …..’get over it’ ….’bipartisan healing’ …’time to move on’ …..’so we can get to the problems at hand’ ///you know, searing rhetoric to protect power brokers & the ruling class/junta from us commoners!!!!!!
July 22nd, 2008 at 2:19 pmGetting back to the original article, as asked above, Is it legal to issue a blanket pardon ?
It seems to me that a pardon would have to enumerate what it is a pardon for. Of course, I am proudly NOT a lawyer.
July 22nd, 2008 at 2:42 pmAs I read it, Toensing eagerly anticipates the future presidint saying things like: here’s your pardon, and here’s your orders. Your pardon means you never have to tell anyone what your orders are, or even that you received orders.
Do I have that right?
July 22nd, 2008 at 4:26 pmNo Justice. No Peace.
Letting the Bushists walk would solidify a massive resistance. If armed revolution is what the mollifiers want then there would be more than enough citizenry to satisfy their desire.
To our “law makers:” Don’t even think about breaking the law by committing acts of criminal negligence in our face.
Do not tread on me. Do you remember? For each member of Congress and every American, I recommend the HBO series John Adams. Don’t force the People to act alone. Again.
http://www.light-to-dark.com/war_on_democracy.html
July 22nd, 2008 at 4:47 pmLamp posts…..rope…..
July 23rd, 2008 at 4:00 amThis is almost certainly a signal that this is a lie and deceit-ridden administration, running scared. Bribing anyone it can to cover the trails, pulling whatever strings the different outsourced actors of the PNAC New World Order could manage to cover their tracks, their bloody footprints.
Personally, I am surprised if the Bush administration leaves office. Perhaps there will suddenly be another attack on American soil, necessitating the declaration of martial law. No doubt, many here are already familiar with the KBR’s “detention camps”. We do need to ask – and answer! – who those camps are really intended for, considering that much protest has been declared as illegal, even as a “terrorist”, according to the Green Scare doctrine of domestic “engagement”.
Given the laws and Presidential Signing Orders that have come to pass in recent years, all citizens of America (and the world, on the basis of the global reach American economically-driven politics expose) need to be especially cautious. In the UK, the western capitalist model has taken the form of intrusive state and third party surveillance, a breakdown of accountability where murderers are actually promoted within Scotland Yard, where warfare to release oil is spun as an ethical imperative.
The time for words is truly over. We can debate these issues until the cows come home. It is definitely time now for the words to find expression through actions, through deeds.
We must each pick, and define, a line in the sand. That is what we must each defend.
July 23rd, 2008 at 7:34 pm