ThinkFast: July 21, 2008
ThinkFast: July 21, 2008
“Bush administration officials agreed that greenhouse gases could endanger the public and should be regulated under clean-air laws, but later reversed course amid opposition from Vice President Dick Cheney’s office and the oil industry, a congressional report said. The “report is inaccurate to the point of being laughable,” said White House spokesman Tony Fratto.
“Britain should no longer rely on assurances by the United States that it does not torture terrorism suspects,” concluded a report released yesterday by an influential committee in Britain’s parliament. Citing “clear differences in definition” between the two countries about whether waterboarding is torture, the Foreign Affairs Committee recommended that U.S. assurances no longer be taken at face value.
The first military commissions trial at Guantanamo Bay begins today, with the trial of Salim Ahmed Hamdan. “Unlike a civilian trial, even if the defendant is acquitted of conspiracy and material support of terrorism charges, he probably will not be released.”
Associate counsel Leslie Fahrenkopf is the second Bush administration official, after speechwriter Bill McGurn, this year “to switch bosses from Bush to Rupert Murdoch.” “After stepping down from the White House on July 11, Fahrenkopf starts in September as vice president and associate general counsel of News Corp.”
On the trail today: Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) meets with military commanders and officials in Iraq. Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) is in Maine, appearing at private receptions at the Nonantum Resort, the Walker’s Point summer home of former President George Bush, and the Maine Military Museum.
A new study, by the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law finds that “poorly designed ballots continue to plague U.S. elections, even after Congress set aside $3 billion to overhaul voting systems.” Since 2000, various problems have “led thousands of voters to skip over key races or make mistakes that invalidated their votes.”
On Friday, the Senate plans to begin debating the “Coburn Omnibus,” a set of bills “that have broad bipartisan support but have been held up” by Sen. Tom Coburn’s (R-OK) objections. Some of these measures include funding for stroke prevention legislation, lateral sclerosis legislation, the Christopher Reeve Paralysis Act, the Emmitt Till Unsolved Crimes Act, and the Mentally Ill Offender Treatment Act.
“United States and NATO missile and mortar strikes continued to exact a heavy toll on Afghans over the weekend, killing at least 13 in two attacks that Afghan officials said were mistakes.”
“The principal source of funding for highway projects will soon hit a big financial pothole” due to rising fuel prices. With motorists cutting back on driving and buying more fuel-efficient cars, “the government is taking in less money from the federal gasoline tax,” which means that “the federal highway trust fund could be in the red by $3.2 billion or more next year.”
And finally: Jenna Bush’s ex moves into the White House. Despite being a college dropout, Blake Gottesman, 28, returns to the White House today as deputy chief of staff. Gottesman had worked as Bush’s personal aide for four years, and had dated Jenna Bush in high school.
What did we miss? Let us know in the comments section.
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Jenna’s ex might not want to get too comfortable — he’ll be out in another six months.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:04 amOn Friday, the Senate plans to begin debating the “Coburn Omnibus,” a set of bills “that have broad bipartisan support but have been held up” by Sen. Tom Coburn’s (R-OK) objections. Some of these measures include funding for stroke prevention legislation, lateral sclerosis legislation, the Christopher Reeve Paralysis Act, the Emmitt Till Unsolved Crimes Act, and the Mentally Ill Offender Treatment Act.
If the Republicans can’t make a nickle off of it, then they don’t want to pass legislation that will help millions of Americans. Greedy b@stards.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:05 amSen. John McCain (R-AZ) is in Maine, appearing at private receptions at the Nonantum Resort, the Walker’s Point summer home of former President George Bush…
There you have it, folks. John McCain IS Bush. He’s using W’s Daddy’s ‘Summer Home’ in Maine for ‘private’ receptions.
In realspeak that means the Bush’s are allowing him to use their private property to hold meetings to raise cash.
McChimp owns 7 houses himself; why the Hell would he need to ‘borrow’ a house to raise money? Because Bush OWNS him.
Of course, the fact Obama raised $52Million in June has them a little scared, I guess.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:06 amHey, Brits, what took you so long? Empiricism should have long ago told anyone watching that the Cheney admin cannot be trusted with anything, foreign or domestic. In fact, no admin official should be allowed to speak in public without a mandatory laughtrack in background.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:07 amRice Says Iran Not Serious At Weekend Nuke Talks
Iran not serious? Well neither were you! We know you only went there so you could say “See, we tried diplomacy and it didn’t work, so now we have to blow them up.”
Sheesh! How stupid do these people think we are?
July 21st, 2008 at 9:09 amI look forward to the “no one could have expected” memo from our petro-government.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:09 amWhat did we miss?
A great concert Saturday by Crosby, Stills, & Nash at Meadowbrook.
Good morning, campers.
I trust the regulars did well this weekend doing whack-a-troll.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:10 am“Unlike a civilian trial, even if the defendant is acquitted of conspiracy and material support of terrorism charges, he probably will not be released.”
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So lemme get this straight — even if acquitted, you’re still guilty? Of what? Being in the wrong place at the wrong time? Being Muslim? Or just being brown?
Obviously, if there is evidence that the defendant has committed conspiracy amd material support of terrorism, he should be held. But holding somebody who’s been acquitted of these charges (and I imagine that in this “guilty until proven innocent” climate that getting an acquittal isn’t easy), won’t win us any hearts and minds in the Middle East.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:11 amFahrenkopf is merely changing divisions in the same organization.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:11 am“The principal source of funding for highway projects will soon hit a big financial pothole” due to rising fuel prices. With motorists cutting back on driving and buying more fuel-efficient cars, “the government is taking in less money from the federal gasoline tax,” which means that “the federal highway trust fund could be in the red by $3.2 billion or more next year.”
As long as Exxon and BP are making their billions in profits, none of our “Representatives” will care. They’ll just ‘borrow’ this money from Social Security or Medicare or the Chinese…
July 21st, 2008 at 9:11 amAmericans United, ACLU Ask Court to End Public Funding of Discriminatory Kentucky Baptist Homes for Children
Appeal of Lawsuit Asserts That Publicly Funded Baptist Facility Proselytizes Children in Its Care
Americans United for Separation of Church and State and the American Civil Liberties Union today urged a federal appeals court to deny tax funding to a Baptist childcare agency that proselytizes youngsters in its care and fires gay employees. The lawsuit, Pedreira v. Kentucky Baptist Homes For Children, Inc., asserts that Kentucky Baptist Homes has no right to accept public funding while imposing religious dogma on the children in its programs, and that the Homes’ religion-based anti-gay employment policy violates civil rights laws.
The lawsuit was filed on behalf of a group of Kentucky taxpayers, including Alicia Pedreira, an employee at the Louisville home who worked with troubled young people. Despite her excellent performance reviews, Pedreira was terminated in 1998 after officials at the facility learned she is a lesbian. A federal district court dismissed the case earlier this year, ruling that the plaintiffs do not have legal standing to bring it. Americans United and the ACLU have asked the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals to reinstate the case and strike down public funding for Kentucky Baptist Homes.
“Kentucky Baptist Homes is on a mission to evangelize on the taxpayer’s dime,” said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, Americans United executive director. “The Constitution simply does not allow this. Faith-based charities that want to indoctrinate youths should not get public funds.” Added Americans United Senior Litigation Counsel Alex J. Luchenitser, “The trial judge was way off base in dismissing this case on legal technicalities. If this wrong-headed ruling is allowed to stand, it will eviscerate the rights of taxpayers to challenge public funding of religion.”
Ken Choe, a senior staff lawyer with the American Civil Liberties Union’s Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Project, said, “This case illustrates the all-too-real dangers of the government funding religious organizations without adequate safeguards. The Constitution’s promise of religious freedom guarantees that the government won’t preference one form of religion over another. Yet that’s exactly what happened to Alicia Pedreira, who was fired because she didn’t conform to the religious beliefs of her government-funded employer.”
In the appellate brief filed with the 6th Circuit today, Americans United and the ACLU note numerous examples of the religious nature of the childcare agency. Its president has touted the Homes’ success in converting children, and the agency calls itself “Christ centered.”
The document also cites a report by the Children’s Review Program, a private contractor hired by Kentucky officials to monitor programs for children. The report noted numerous instances where young people complained about being forced to attend Baptist services or said they were not permitted to attend services of other faiths.
Asserts the brief, “Baptist Homes uses its public funding to indoctrinate youths who are wards of the state in its religious views, coerce them to take part in religious activity, and convert them to its version of Christianity, and does so in part by requiring its employees to reflect its religious beliefs in their behavior.”
http://www.commondreams.org/
This is a shining example of why we can’t allow government support of religious groups. There is no oversight into these programs, children are forced to adher to the religious programs beliefs and practices. Far too many of them break civil rights laws by demanding that employees follow their doctrine.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:12 amZimzone Says: There you have it, folks. John McCain IS Bush. He’s using W’s Daddy’s ‘Summer Home’ in Maine for ‘private’ receptions.
I beg to differ. I think McCain is WORSE than Bush. Bush was really just Dick Cheney’s puppet. McCain is Dick Cheney…
July 21st, 2008 at 9:13 ambush has made it clear to the world that we are mean and we will kick anyones ass that crosses us.
The last 8 years have been violent and counterproductive. bush and his admisistration are responsible for it.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:15 amAl Gore did a great job explaining his energy efforts on Meet the Press Sunday morning.
No matter what the Republics call him or how they smear him, his message is pertinent, his goals make sense and…he’s right.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:15 amunbelievable Says
July 21st, 2008 at 9:05 am
If the Republicans can’t make a nickle off of it, then they don’t want to pass legislation that will help millions of Americans. Greedy b@stards.
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Normally, I’d agree with you, but it appears that Coburn (on the face of it) is the sole villain on this one if these bills have the widespread bipartisan support they are believed to have. I’m not ready to tar all the Republican senators yet.
On the other hand, if the GOP bands together in lock-step to oppose the bundled package, then they really ARE greedy b@stards.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:18 amI find it very sad & indicative of the mind-set of this country right now, we have a Presidential nominee over in the Middle East keeping us MIRED in the Middle East.
Since 9/11 our civilian economy has morphed into just a Military Economy. Everything these days is about security, terrorism, fighting Al-Queda, the military.
As our Civilian Economy sinks at the hands of the elite — the banks are being rescued. But, Poor Joe Schmoe is trying to deal with the soaring costs of energy, food, health care.
People are losing their homes left and right.
But we don’t have leadership, we don’t have a Anti-War Candidate to stand up against this phony “war on terror”. Maybe the reason Afghanistan has an uprising of the Taliban is because we are there.
I wish we had real leadership that questioned what really happened on September 11, 2001.
This was a all a PNACian planned ruse to make our military stronger. Haliburton, Bechtel, Blackwater USA are all raking in the dough under this Military Economy.
While everyone shops are friggin Walmart (which I don’t) –
July 21st, 2008 at 9:19 amwhen will real leadership stand up?
First, let me defend college drop-outs. It’s no disgrace to forgo the perfessers and seek learning on one’s own; you don’t have to resign yourself to being a fawning lickspittle the rest of your life. As Blake-boy shows, you can do that with or without sheepskin.
Doesn’t “Gottesman” translate to “God’s fellow?” Does Jenna utter, “Mein Gott, mein Gott?” How about, later, “Heckuva job, Gotty?”
July 21st, 2008 at 9:19 amZimzone Says
July 21st, 2008 at 9:15 am
Al Gore did a great job explaining his energy efforts on Meet the Press Sunday morning.
No matter what the Republics call him or how they smear him, his message is pertinent, his goals make sense and…he’s right.
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There must be something very liberating about not running for office. No matter what sticks and stones are thrown at you, you can stay on the message you want. Kudos to Gore for staying the course, even though the oil machine wants to shut him down.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:22 amThe first military commissions trial at Guantanamo Bay begins today, with the trial of Salim Ahmed Hamdan. “Unlike a civilian trial, even if the defendant is acquitted of conspiracy and material support of terrorism charges, he probably will not be released.”
Then what’s the point of a trial to begin with ?
July 21st, 2008 at 9:22 amSo…….so did bush and he shows no signs of intelligence whatsoever unless you count the dark cunning of a fox in the henhouse as a sign of intelligence.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:22 amWhen I talk about a Presidential Nominee keeping us MIRED in the Middle East: I am talking about a resurgence of troops to Afghanistan.
I just think it’s sad that we have traded our basic Constitutional Rights for “security”. (see: FISA Amendment Act of 2008 ETC..)
This constant military interventionism is Killing this country. How many more levees need to burst before we really start to look at this country?
Instead of touring Afdghanistan, how about an unflinching look at New Orleans?
July 21st, 2008 at 9:25 amtruther21 Says:
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And finally: Jenna Bush’s ex moves into the White House. Despite being a college dropout, Blake Gottesman, 28, returns to the White House today as deputy chief of staff. Gottesman had worked as Bush’s personal aide for four years, and had dated Jenna Bush in high school.
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Although Gottesman took time off from college, he graduated from Harvard Business School in 2008.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:18 am
Time off for what ?
To enlist and serve in Iraq ?
Yeah , I didn’t believe so ; we all know those Young Republicans are too cowardly………
July 21st, 2008 at 9:25 amNo defense for this bratboy getting his job through the cheap way of dating the bosses’ daughter, but isn’t calling a recent HBS grad a “college dropout” a little bit of a stretch?
Er, maybe in literal terms TP is right. He’s a college dropout, but completed graduate school.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:25 amtruther21 Says:
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Open Question:
Do TP’s progressives posters support “redeploying” our troops to Afghanistan where hundreds or thousands will likely die fighting al Qaeda and the Taliban, or should they all be brought home?
July 21st, 2008 at 9:25 am
They should all be brought home , with you 19% Chimpy Adoration Brigade morons replacing them…….
July 21st, 2008 at 9:26 am“Bush administration officials agreed that greenhouse gases could endanger the public and should be regulated under clean-air laws, but later reversed course amid opposition from Vice President Dick Cheney’s office and the oil industry, a congressional report said.
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Don’t these Bush administration officials know they are supposed to run EVERYTHING through Cheney and the oil industry before they speak? Cheney appears to be losing his grip on the puppet.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:26 amIs Blake Gottesman THE FUTURE of the republican party? Find out on tonight’s edition of Young Republicants.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:28 amtruther, do you have a pimple on your butt you should disclose?
July 21st, 2008 at 9:30 amtruther21 Says
July 21st, 2008 at 9:25 am
Do TP’s progressives posters support “redeploying” our troops to Afghanistan where hundreds or thousands will likely die fighting al Qaeda and the Taliban, or should they all be brought home?
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We still have some unfinished business in that part of the world — Osama bin Laden has yet to be brought to justice for 9/11. Even though Bush hardly thinks about him anymore, there is no statute of limitations on this kind of crime.
While I doubt that it will take ALL of our Iraq troops to take care of this detail, it will take some. The rest should come home — especially our National Guard forces. Their absence leaves us vulnerable in times of disaster here at home.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:31 amtruther21 Says:
Open Question:
Do TP’s progressives posters support “redeploying” our troops to Afghanistan where hundreds or thousands will likely die fighting al Qaeda and the Taliban, or should they all be brought home?
Open question:
When will you and the rest of the conservatives apologize for the huge mistake that is Iraq?
Progressives mostly consider 9/11 if not an inside job to be a crime and requires police action, nationally and internationally…..no war was necessary.
Afganistan did not declare war or strike us….just a few criminals that live there. If British citizens had set off a bomb in New York City would we have invaded Britain?
July 21st, 2008 at 9:33 amMcWars Says
July 21st, 2008 at 9:25 am
No defense for this bratboy getting his job through the cheap way of dating the bosses’ daughter, but isn’t calling a recent HBS grad a “college dropout” a little bit of a stretch?
Er, maybe in literal terms TP is right. He’s a college dropout, but completed graduate school.
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Furthermore, I believe that his “dropout” status is irrelevant at this point. I doubt he got his job because of his college transcript, or his dating history with Jenna. I suspect he got it because he’s the kind of bootlicking sycophant they like to have on staff.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:34 amWe still have some unfinished business in that part of the world
True.
To continue our reckless foreign policy which has done nothing but make the Military Contractors (Haliburton, Bechtel etc) Wildly Rich beyond their dreams….
Our Hubris-filled ethnic cleansing crusade ain’t over yet. Lots more profits to be made.
Wasn’t that Bin Laden playing golf with Clinton, Bush I up in Maine the other day?
July 21st, 2008 at 9:35 amGottesman still does not have a college degree. Connection got him admitted, not scholarship.
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=513563
July 21st, 2008 at 9:36 amtruther21 Says:
bla bla bla…..clinton(Obama) did it too, ect.
America trusted bush to lead us in America’s best interests and he failed, period. That is why the elections in the fall are headed in the obvious direction.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:37 amtruther21 Says
July 21st, 2008 at 9:32 am
So let me try to get this straight MCMetal (although that is quite difficult with your posts): You support sending troops to die in Afghanistan fighting al Qaeda and the Taliban, but only if those troops have answered in polls that they support the current President? Should those troops be replaced in January 2009 by Obama supporters since he supports “redeploying” the troops to Afghanistan?
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I believe McMetal was being facetious. I doubt he was handing you a straw man. Not that it stopped you from grabbing onto it and attempting to turn it into a debate.
Grab another cup of coffee. Once you wake up fully, you might be better able to recognize a snark post when you see one.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:40 amtruther21 Says:
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So let me try to get this straight MCMetal (although that is quite difficult with your posts): You support sending troops to die in Afghanistan fighting al Qaeda and the Taliban, but only if those troops have answered in polls that they support the current President? Should those troops be replaced in January 2009 by Obama supporters since he supports “redeploying” the troops to Afghanistan?
July 21st, 2008 at 9:32 am
I don’t support sending our troops anywhere to die ; and those of us who have always known what an incredible joke and clod that Chimpy is , have had to endure being wiretapped , lied to , watching our surplus be pissed away , and countless other indignations.
It is time for you 19%’ers , in “honor” of your loyalty to the worst president and a traitorous , treasonous piece of garbage by repaying Americans and US for your lack of honesty and complete lack of intelligence and putting party before country , by stepping up…….
July 21st, 2008 at 9:41 amKay Says:
Clinton did not lead us into an illegal war. He precided over the most prosperous decade in American history.
Obama is not a war monger as bush is.
they are not the same.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:41 amtruther21 Says:
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Thank you for an honest answer MissMolly. The liberal/progressive message on this subject has been unclear as the protest signs and chants talk of bringing the troops home, while the liberal politicians, including Obama, talk of redeploying the troops to Afghanistan.
But what if Bin Laden is not in Afghanistan?
July 21st, 2008 at 9:36 am
And when the hell was Bin Laden ever in Iraq ?
July 21st, 2008 at 9:42 amThe last 8 years was a set up.
Get Mired in Afghnaistan and Iraq.
Attack Iran — or, come to the defence of Isreal. Of course, don’t rule out a false-flag attack.
Obama gets elected. Now we are Mired in 3 Wars — all started under Bush.
So, not to be “soft” on terrorism, Obama joins the hubris-filled ethnic cleansing crusade.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:45 amBased on reports around the globe, Obama could run for President of the World & most likely win right now.
How’s that sit with you cherry pick’n Trolls?
July 21st, 2008 at 9:45 amThanks for the clarification, Miss Molly. Good morning.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:45 amtruther21 Says
July 21st, 2008 at 9:36 am
But what if Bin Laden is not in Afghanistan?
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Then obviously, we should go where he is (do you REALLY need this explained to you?).
When a suspected murderer is on the loose, law enforcement relies on tips and detective work to find him. It’s pretty much the same with an international criminal of this magnitude, and our intelligence suggests he’s hiding out in the mountains between Afghanistan and Pakistan, so logic would dictate we follow up on those “tips”. If he’s not there, we should continue looking wherever the trail leads until we find him — even if he turns out to be relaxing in a hammock at Kennebunkport.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:46 amFor the record, we should get the hell out of Iraq and Afghanistan.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:46 amtruther21 Says:
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So far we have:
McMetal: in favor of sending troops to Afghanistan, but only if the troops are George Bush supporters. Bring all non-Bush supporters home.
MissMolly: in favor of Obama plan to send more troops to Afghanistan because we have “unfinished business” there.
Fred: against sending more troops to Afghanistan.
Kay: unclear, but appears against US having troops in Afghanistan.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:44 am
And we have you , d-bag , who believes everything the most dishonest and worst president in US history farts out his stupid mouth , along with the presumptive GOP presidential nominee , who claims he knows all about “winning wars” , when he was never in a war that the US won , nor could he ever keep his goddamn plane from crashing ; and what ‘plan’ does McStupid favor ?
Do you even know ?
Hell , does HE EVEN KNOW ?
July 21st, 2008 at 9:47 am“Unlike a civilian trial, even if the defendant is acquitted of conspiracy and material support of terrorism charges, he probably will not be released.”
So, why are they bothering with this Kangaroo Court? It is going to be a total embarrassment for the US. Imagine other countries watching us hold a trial where the defendant is not allowed to defend himself. Just another blot on the US reputation.
Hopefully when Obama takes office he will look at any “evidence” they have against these guys and lets go the ones where we have nothing. The problem will be finding someplace to send them. These people have forever been ruined and no country wants them as citizens.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:48 amRepublican credo:
Ask not what you can do for your Country, but what you can do for yourself.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:48 amThe lawsuit, Pedreira v. Kentucky Baptist Homes For Children, Inc., asserts that Kentucky Baptist Homes has no right to accept public funding while imposing religious dogma on the children in its programs, and that the Homes’ religion-based anti-gay employment policy violates civil rights laws.
This is their most reliable method for getting new believers – get them when they are young enough to believe in anything (what grown adult would buy into Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy or an Invisible Sky Daddy without having had the indoctrination as a child).
The Religious organizations are getting desperate as the younger generations are significantly less religious. I hope they lose this lawsuit, and my tax dollars.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:49 amQ: According to the FBI’s website, Bin Laden is not wanted for the crimes on 9/11?
why is that?
July 21st, 2008 at 9:49 amtruther21 Says:
One would wonder why you would be parsing our possible future actions…..
Could it be to avoid discussion your past mistakes?
July 21st, 2008 at 9:49 am“Britain should no longer rely on assurances by the United States that it does not torture terrorism suspects,”
I’m sure that Britain has known this for a long time now. I can’t believe that Bush’s poodle Tony Blair didn’t know we were torturing people. Also, I hate the obsession with waterboarding. It sounds like that is the only torture technique that we use. We all know that the US uses many more torture techniques as heinous as waterboarding is. They all need to be publicized so we will stop.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:50 ammisshusseinmolly Says: On the other hand, if the GOP bands together in lock-step to oppose the bundled package, then they really ARE greedy b@stards.
They did let Coburn hold those bills up this long without pressuring him to release them. It’s one thing to be silently complicit so that you don’t have to actually vote ‘no’…
July 21st, 2008 at 9:51 amtruther21 Says:
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I recognized it as a snark MissMolly. But sometimes, the only way to get a better, non-snarky answer on follow-up is to treat the snark as true.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:48 am
You peddle GOP/FAUX Comedy Channel/wrong wingnut talk radio/White House talking points and outright bullshit rhetoric ; you believe you’re worth a decent , honest response , you sorry sack of shit ?
July 21st, 2008 at 9:52 amI think it’s extremely unsettling to watch the reich-wing troll argue against finishing the unfinished conflict that had the meaningful and honorable use of our forces, while having no shame for a dishonorable conflict that he and his 19% supported, taking 4,000 of our troops; injuring and maiming tens of thousands of them; forcing 10% of Iraq’s population into exile; killing, maiming or disfiguring millions of Iraqis; and obliterating their logistical needs.
Think of the surviving Iraqi children, troll, who will grow up with mental and physical scars, who will plot a revenge attack against the United States.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:53 amA new study, by the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law finds that “poorly designed ballots continue to plague U.S. elections, even after Congress set aside $3 billion to overhaul voting systems.”
For the life of me I don’t understand why Congress doesn’t pass a law making vote by mail the law of the land. I really can’t see any downside to it. Oregon has been voting by mail for a long time and recently Washington adopted it too.
There is no way you can set it up so that people misinterpret what they have to do, people don’t have to worry about waiting in line to vote, and there will always be a paper trail for the vote. The only down-side I can see is that we probably would not know who won on the night of the election, but.. hey, it will just draw out the suspense!
July 21st, 2008 at 9:54 amunbelievable Says:
I think McCain is WORSE than Bush.
Agreed. Carol Kreck’s sign should have read “McCain < Bush”.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:54 amtruther21 Says:
Open question for you: Knowing what you now know,do you think invading Iraq was a mistake?
July 21st, 2008 at 9:55 amOn Friday, the Senate plans to begin debating the “Coburn Omnibus,” a set of bills “that have broad bipartisan support but have been held up” by Sen. Tom Coburn’s (R-OK) objections.
What I don’t understand about this guy is that he is a physician. So why does he hold up all those bills that have to do with saving lives? I also think that the time has come for the Congress to rewrite its rules so that one person can’t possibly hold up a bill.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:56 amI’m sure that’s not the only thing that Britain shouldn’t trust us about.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:58 amtruther21 Says:
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Update:
So far we have:
Fred, Kay and McMetal: want all US troops out of Afghanistan and Iraq.
MissMolly and McWars: appear to be in favor of Obama plan to send more troops to Afghanistan because we have “unfinished business” there.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:57 am
And we still have you doing a roll call that is meaningless .
July 21st, 2008 at 9:59 amBilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
On Friday, the Senate plans to begin debating the “Coburn Omnibus,” a set of bills “that have broad bipartisan support but have been held up” by Sen. Tom Coburn’s (R-OK) objections.
What I don’t understand about this guy is that he is a physician. So why does he hold up all those bills that have to do with saving lives? I also think that the time has come for the Congress to rewrite its rules so that one person can’t possibly hold up a bill.
(whispers)
Health Care Agency Dollars.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:59 amI’m done with truther…..he has nothing to contribute. I’m flagging the troll.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:00 amZombie Jesus for President
Suppose you are an American voter who doesn’t particularly care for McCain or Obama. You are no libertarian, and you cannot imagine voting for the Green Party candidate. Fortunately, you have another option besides simply staying home on election day. You can join a group of crazed evangelical Christians and vote for a corpse. But this isn’t just any corpse – this one has either been dead for over 2,000 years or never existed at all. Oh yeah! We’re talking Zombie Jesus for President.
Not exactly known for embracing reality, a group of evangelical Christians in Pennsylvania are campaigning for Jesus. To lend credibility to their cause, they are led by a white guy with dreadlocks (photo here). Surely that will help.
http://www.atheistrev.com/
July 21st, 2008 at 10:01 am“United States and NATO missile and mortar strikes continued to exact a heavy toll on Afghans over the weekend, killing at least 13 in two attacks that Afghan officials said were mistakes.”
Ok, can someone tell me why they are making so many “mistakes” in Afghanistan? By the time we leave, they will hate us as much as the Iraqi’s hate us.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:02 amtruther21 Says:
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Why do you feel your opinion is meaningless, MCMetal? I think it is important to understand how progressives think on the subject.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:01 am
I didn’t claim my opinion is meaningless ; your posts are ……
July 21st, 2008 at 10:02 amYou Say You Want a Revolution?
This is the next American revolution, said Dr. Grace Lee Boggs, 93, a long-time Detroit activist. “We are at a stage in human history that is as monumental as changing from a hunter/gatherer society to an agricultural society and from an agricultural society to and industrial society. Where we’re headed now will be different because we have exhausted planetary space and human space.” In other words, a new epoch is emerging that emphasizes relationships and communities more than the accumulation of things — and the counting of profits.
The industrial society also skirted social justice concerns. It didn’t face the fact that the workers were demeaned and deskilled or that some of the products they made (like military equipment) or some of the processes they used (which involved dangerous chemicals) could be harmful.
Jobs led people to believe that anything they did for pay was good — no matter how destructive it was to the person, the community or the environment. Their work eventually planted the seeds for “Detroit Summer” in 1992 where young and old would re-generate their neighborhoods by developing community gardens and producing public works of art.
This effort further blossomed into forming a local agricultural network that is now impacting the city’s food system by growing thousands of pounds of fresh, nutritious produce through organic agriculture techniques, finding alternative uses of blighted spaces, creating income generating activities, and diversifying crops and products for market.
This revolution urges citizens not to stand around and wait for leaders to initiate needed changes. Instead, individuals are learning that they can enlist others to help them rebuild their communities. “We have the opportunity to take a great leap forward in these very challenging times,” said Grace. “We need to change our institutions and ourselves. We need to seize opportunities. We need to launch our imaginations beyond the thinking of the past. We need to discern who we are and expand on our humanness and sacredness. That’s how we change the world, which happens because WE will be the change.”
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/07/20/10481/
I agree with the author, Olga , that it will be up to us to make the changes in our own communities for the better. Attachment to materialistic values or possessions is part of the downfall of this country. A great lesson can be learned by our grandparents and great-grandparents that lived through the depression. They would never think to wait in a line for two days to get the next generation of X-Box, IPhone, or WII, nor would they have wanted one. What they did was take care of one another. Somewhere along the way that has been forgotten. We teach our children how to share at an early age, it is a valuable lesson that we need to start embracing for a brighter future.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:03 amMcCain gets $1,930 a month from ‘broken’ Social Security system, which he called a disgrace. In 2007, he received benefits of $23,157 from Social Security, approximately $1,930 a month. In 2006, McCain’s wife Cindy earned $6 million, and has a net worth of approximately $100 million. He has the option of turning down the payments, but still pockets the money.
http://www.buzzflash.com/
July 21st, 2008 at 10:04 amBilbo, these republican doctors are not doctors in the sense that we have always thought of them as being. Their motivation is money. They became doctors for the money.
I recently finished a search for a democratic doctor because all of the doctors I had been dealing with were more concerned with whether I could pay than what was wrong with me physically.
I was happily sucessful. There are some dedicated doctors out there but none of them are republicans. I’m not saying that they are bad doctors, just that their priorities do not match mine.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:05 amCaption: Cheney overdresses for his spot in Eternal Hell.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:05 amtruther21 Says
July 21st, 2008 at 9:49 am
Do you support sending U.S. troops into Pakistan if Bin Laden is there, even if the Pakistani government has told us to stay out?
____________________________________________________________
Pakistan’s wanting us to “stay out” is based on their not wanting to turn into another Iraq. And I don’t blame them for that.
Pakistan, however, has indicated a willingness to talk with us about working with us in getting rid of the terrorist nests and zeroing in on OBL. That is, if they have any trust for us remaining at all (our credibility IS sort of shot).
I don’t support a full-scale invasion of Pakistan in the same way we have invaded Iraq, or the way we are beating the drums for bombing Iran. That would be unnecessary and stupid. But if we know that OBL is in Pakistan, and we know where he is, I support getting him ourselves if Pakistan won’t turn him over to us. This is what we SHOULD have been working on for the past seven years, not getting bogged down in Iraq on a wild petroleum chase.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:05 amHow many would agree with me that we really don’t need a
‘Troll Poll’ this early on a Monday morning.
It can’t answer if it supported the Iraq invasion, but still tries
to suck posters into a false opinion poll.
I don’t take opinion or poll calls at home, why should I have to
read it’s bullshit here, too?
July 21st, 2008 at 10:05 amMissMolly and McWars: appear to be in favor of Obama plan to send more troops to Afghanistan because we have “unfinished business” there.
The fact that you have such resistance to the US going after the source of terror, and the fact that the reich is so drawn to preemptive strikes again shows how foreign you idiots are to the concept of fighting terrorism.
The reich authorizes strikes on perceived enemies so when they actually attack (strike back) out of frustration of being attacked, the reich can claim, with adornment, “Aha! They were a threat after all!”
Your kool-aid damaged brain isn’t our problem, troll.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:06 amThis will make you want to puke.
http://www.atlargely.com
Bush Dictator for life.
We are on the verge of full-fledged fascism if “good Germans”(us) allow this to happen.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:06 amtruther21 Says: Why do you feel your opinion is meaningless, MCMetal? I think it is important to understand how progressives think on the subject.
Unlike you cons, Progressives don’t share one brain, opinion, ideology, etc.
You even listed several opinions in your responses to people, while faling to recognize this.
Go educate yourself and stop bothering us with your ignorance.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:06 amAfter completing his freshman year at Claremont in 1999, he left to join the Bush presidential campaign and later served as a junior aide to former White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card. In February 2002, he became the president’s personal assistant.
In his current role, Gottesman performs a wide range of duties, from dog-sitting the president’s Scottish terriers, Barney and Miss Beazley, to carrying the president’s speeches and giving him the “two-minute warning” before a speech begins.
This joker got into Harvard Business School, even though he dropped out of college after his freshman year! Now he is using his Harvard business education as a dogsitter.
This is the same school which gave an MBA to George W. Bush, who then proceeded to go bankrupt, because he couldn’t find oil in Texas, went into a partnership with Osama bin Laden’s brother, used his daddy’s connections to get a sweetheart job with Harkin, where he cooked the books, so he could steal a few hundred grand, and used those ill-gotten gains to get in on a baseball deal to rip off the taxpayers of Arlington, Texas for $150 million.
Boy, Harvard Business School is building quite a reputation.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:07 amUncle Ho Says:
What did we miss?
A great concert Saturday by Crosby, Stills, & Nash at Meadowbrook.
Good morning, campers.
Oh…I’m so jealous. The only thing I miss about moving from Northern California to Oregon is the music. I used to go to a great music festival up by Yosemite called the Strawberry Festival. It was held on Memorial Day and Labor Day. God how I miss them! Some day before I die I’m going to make it back there.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:10 amtruther21 Says:
——————————————————————————–
Your flag is showing your true colors Fred. Afraid of open discussion on an open thread. Afraid to do anything but criticize. Afraid to reveal your proposed answers/solutions on anything. MissMolly showed no such fear. Although we disagree on many subjects, I admire her for that.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:06 am
I’m certain Miss Molly is doing cartwheels and somersaults after reading your post…………
BTW
You and those you idolize have been 0-for-8 years ; accomplishing absolutely nothing but screwing everything up royally.
What is with you feeble minded twits believing you know anything at all , much less laughably believing you and the garbage GOP and this administration have the answer(s) to everything ………?
July 21st, 2008 at 10:10 amBreaking: Undercover Investigation Shines Light on Bush Appointee’s “Dark Shadows.”
Today it was confirmed, by administration insiders — quoted anonymously, due to the sensitive nature of the allegations being made — that since April 2006, the Bush Administration official responsible for revision and oversight of federal funeral industry licensing standards, has in fact been a vampire.
In response to, and on the basis of a six-month undercover investigation (which will be comprehensively covered in Sunday’s Washington section), it also now has been confirmed by corporate officials of Internovix, the Sweden-based international medical-supplies conglomerate (whose American subsidiary is the Denver-based Purple Heart Products), that Hans-Neil Grolschlapper, naturalized American citizen, former lobbyist for the consortium, and a confirmed political appointee of the Bush administration, is of the undead.
Individual eyewitness accounts vary, however Under-Secretary Grolschlapper has been seen (but never photographed) on numerous occasions in the company of suspected “twilighters” — or, those individuals rumored to be in the beginning stages of vampirism.
Accessing confidential Maryland police records spanning a six-month period, private investigators also were able to uncover numerous detailed explanations, made to municipal prosecutors by the Under-Secretary’s Administration-appointed attorneys, covering “accidental” late-night meetings with the aforementioned, “coincidental” police discoveries of exsanguinated corpes, found in the nearby vicinity of his Silver Springs home, and even Grolschlapper’s possession and use (according to neighbors), of a large, acetylene-fired, “backyard bar-b-que pit,” capable of reaching temperatures in excess of two thousand degrees fahrenheit.
Confronted last night by reporters, outside the office of his wife’s private Lamaze instructor, Grolschlapper termed the claims, “preposterous; allegations [spun] from environmentalist wholecloth [. . .]” — but his unauthorized autobiography does include mention of a lengthy stay at an Amsterdam address, short blocks from the location of another, recently-discovered pit, containing the identified remains of several missing young women, two members of the local clergy, and an as-yet anonymous, one-legged, male dwarf. (Due to the on-going nature of the investigation, their names have yet to be released to the general public.)
At Grolschlapper’s confirmation hearings, the nominee seemed at times combative: “I don’t agree that the terms of my service specifically dictate what hours I must physically be present…” and at others, conciliatory — near to the point of obsequiousness:”My records will be open to all of you, should you need further reassurance of my performance while in office. I predict you will see an unswerving commitment the agency’s stated goals, and a willingness to employ all assets at my disposal to accomplish these goals” — an inconsistent attitude, that left a bad taste for many Senate democrats.
Further doubts arose, when the administration nominee refused to appear before Senate committee members except by video-feed, due to a claimed “highly-contagious skin disease” contracted while on a recent trip to Manila. In the poorly-lit video, little can be seen of the nominee’s features, as he is near-totally obscured by medical monitoring equipment, and heavy layers of cotton gauze.
Committee Democrats at first seemed in no hurry to confirm, given the nominee’s apparent physical condition, and seeming disdain for committee members — but they were swayed by the impassioned, last minute pleas of Sen. Joe Leiberman: “Friends and collegues, in this vote today, we seek to bury the mistakes of the past; to approve the president’s nominee, and let voters see the… to see that bipartisan compromise is still a hallmark of the US Senate. [. . .]”
Keeping true to form, Administration officials have yet to publicly acknowledge the raised suspicions (and mounting material evidence), of this, and other subsequently-related investigations. Seemingly, since the presidential finish line is so near, they intend to cross it at all costs — with their political enemies grasping at their heels, if need be.
_____________________________________________________________
Good morning, and just kidding, folks.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:10 amUnbelievable, good morning.
I strongly believe that the way to save social security is to enact income caps in receiving benefits. The dynamic of government programs as a whole is to pay into them even if you don’t qualify to benefit. Why should social security be any different? Social Security was clearly a program designed to facilitate the retirement of middle class Americans.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:10 amWhen did you answer our questions or enter into discussion? Did I miss something?
July 21st, 2008 at 10:12 amFred Says:
When did you answer our questions or enter into discussion? Did I miss something?
You didn’t miss it, Fred. It’s just trolling for a reaction.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:13 amtruther21 Says:
Do TP’s progressives posters support “redeploying” our troops to Afghanistan where hundreds or thousands will likely die fighting al Qaeda and the Taliban, or should they all be brought home?
July 21st, 2008 at 9:25 am
______
Considering that al-Qa’ida is a continuing threat to the United States and the Taliban is a continuing threat to Afghanistan, yes. As many troops as are needed to stabilize and develop Afghanistan should be redeployed there.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:14 amKay Says:
I find it very sad & indicative of the mind-set of this country right now, we have a Presidential nominee over in the Middle East keeping us MIRED in the Middle East.
Ok, I’ll bite. How is Obama being in the middle east “keeping us mired” in the middle east? Do you think that Obama should ignore the middle east?
July 21st, 2008 at 10:15 amUncle Ho @ 81 – thanks for that link. I hadn’t gone to Larisa’s site in awhile. She’s brutally fabulous.
A good line from it:
“This article shows that today’s neo-conservative is nothing more than the 21st century equivalent of a Nazi in pre World War II Germany.”
July 21st, 2008 at 10:15 amMcWars Says: Social Security was clearly a program designed to facilitate the retirement of middle class Americans.
Seems that if the Federal Government would stop robbing its coffers for the sake of funding the Iraq Occupation and Corporate Welfare, SS wouldn’t be a broken system in teh first place, and we’d probably not even notice that McCain is being a greedy little pig taking money he doesn’t need (by the way – he’s not even retired yet, so why is is drawing on it? Isn’t that illegal?)
Republicans valu themselves in terms of how much money they have. How sad is that?
July 21st, 2008 at 10:16 am#Kay Says:
When I talk about a Presidential Nominee keeping us MIRED in the Middle East: I am talking about a resurgence of troops to Afghanistan.
Ok, I get it. You think that we should just up and bring all our people home from both Iraq and Afghanistan right now. I don’t want to see our troops stay in Afghanistan any more than I want to see them stay in Iraq. But, we have created a huge mess in both places and it is our moral duty to try to clean up the mess as best we can. If that means sticking around for a while in Afghanistan to push back the Taliban, that’s what we should do, assuming that is what the people and the government of Afghanistan want. If they want us gone like Iraq, then we should leave. The other reason for being in Afghanistan is that it brings us closer to Osama and I, for one, would like to see him caught.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:19 amI think robbin that bank was a mistake but killing the bank tellers finally brought it around and made it a success?
July 21st, 2008 at 10:19 amunbelievable Says:
Not exactly known for embracing reality, a group of evangelical Christians in Pennsylvania are campaigning for Jesus.
Update:
Today, the Zombie Jesus for President Committee announced that their Vice Presidential candidate will be Zombie Elvis.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:21 amtruther21 Says:
Do you support sending U.S. troops into Pakistan if Bin Laden is there, even if the Pakistani government has told us to stay out?
July 21st, 2008 at 9:49 am
______
We already have special forces in Pakistan working with the ISI. Pervez Musharraf is not going to tell us to “get out” because he needs us to keep his counry together. If and when someone succeeds him, that’s a
Now, there are some caveats to this. I would not support a full-scale military invasion of Pakistan, as the result would be a quagmire that makes Iraq look like a beach party. And I trust the ISI about as much as I trust al-Qa’ida, so I do worry about over-relying on them. But a small contingent of special forces could do quite a lot to disassemble the al-Qa’ida network.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:21 amtruther21 Says:
——————————————————————————–
I also happen to agree with most of what MissMolly has said on this post. I think that going into Iraq without more international support was a mistake, and that once we were there, many more mistakes were made. However, I think that the Surge has been a success and has turned things around to the point where we can continue to withdraw troops as the Iraqis become more and more able to stand up for themselves. While I hope that this can be accomplised in the next 18-24 months, conditions on the ground will have to dictate the actual time line. In the end, what we will have is a free democracy in Iraq, rather than the dangerous, brutal dictatorship that was there before. That is a success. As for Afghanistan, I agree with MissMolly.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:14 am
Stop your nonsense , turdburglar……..
The “Surge” is not the deciding factor in why violence has dropped in Iraq ; stop trying to continue that lie ……
July 21st, 2008 at 10:22 amBHB:
By, saying we are going to send more troops to Afghanistan and saying that Iran is a “threat” is continuing our presence in the Middle East. Obama has joined “The Israeli Lobby” by coddling Isreal.
Isreal is more of a nuclear threat than Iran will ever be. I am not saying Obama should ignore the Middle East, but he is )albeit a shade less hawkish than McBomb, but still it’s far from the foreign policy I would like right now. Obama is pandering to the right.
I know my words will be picked apart.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:22 am31. truther21 Says:
Ok, which former troll is this reincarnation? It makes no more sense than many of the others who come here so I’m having a hard time trying to identify it.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:22 amA new study, by the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law finds that “poorly designed ballots continue to plague U.S. elections, even after Congress set aside $3 billion to overhaul voting systems.”
________________________________________________________
I sense this is a harbinger of things to come. If the election is stolen this time, it will be blamed on “poorly designed ballots”.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:22 amBilbo Hussein Baggins Says
July 21st, 2008 at 10:22 am
31. truther21 Says:
Ok, which former troll is this reincarnation? It makes no more sense than many of the others who come here so I’m having a hard time trying to identify it.
____________________________________________________
I suspect this is just the latest incarnation of good_golly. Either that or Trajan. It doesn’t really matter — they’re interchangable.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:24 amtruther21 Says:
But what if Bin Laden is not in Afghanistan?
I believe that Obama still would send troops there. We have made a real mess out of Afghanistan and if the people and the government want us there to sort out the mess, then we have the moral obligation to go and help them. But, if they also don’t want us there, like Iraq, then we should come home and let them sort things out for themselves.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:25 amRepublicans valu themselves in terms of how much money they have. How sad is that?
As you previously stated, capitalism puts money first and people second. Money is allowed to define the person. The broader implications of capitalism are disturbing.
Full SS retirement for someone of McCain’s decade was 66 or 67. If you’re still working after that age you can still draw full benefits w/o any offset. Working before the full retirement age, to my knowledge, would reduce benefits $1 for every $2 earned if the income is above $12,000 annually.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:25 amLet’s see
mccain: Iraq 100 years
Obama: Leave Iraq within 16 months
yep, they are the same.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:28 amunbelievable Says
July 21st, 2008 at 10:16 am
Republicans valu themselves in terms of how much money they have. How sad is that?
_________________________________________________________
I agree that’s the number one measure they use. But let’s be fair — there are some other factors. Not too far down the scale are how green and nicely landscaped their lawn is, and how low their golf game is.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:28 am#Fred Says:
Kay Says:
Clinton did not lead us into an illegal war. He precided over the most prosperous decade in American history.
Obama is not a war monger as bush is. they are not the same.
Hi Fred…don’t waste your breath with Kay. It has gone over to the darkside of trollism and is so virulently anti Obama, it will come up with anything to try to convince us that Obama is evil incarnate. It is starting to take on the fanaticism of RHF.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:29 amObama is not saying 16 months in Afghanistan. Where did you read this?
Obama is saying 16 months for Iraq (which is still too long)
This is another open-ended financial adventure for the Military Industrial Entertainment Corporate Complex.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:30 ammisshusseinmolly Says:
unbelievable Says
I agree that’s the number one measure they use. But let’s be fair — there are some other factors. Not too far down the scale are how green and nicely landscaped their lawn is, and how low their golf game is.
I think that you have both missed the most important thing to a Republican and that is how much POWER they have.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:31 amWanting Peace and Upholdinog the Constitution = darkside of trollism
July 21st, 2008 at 10:31 amHaving a different point of view = darkside of trollism
July 21st, 2008 at 10:32 amGoing after Bin Laden is the goal. But when we have the added inconvenience of rebuilding our forces to take on the cause, the loudmouths who wasted their lives in Iraq will start screaming, “What are you waiting for, why haven’t you kept your word and caught Bin Laden!?!?!” in a rage purely motivated by politics.
The strategy is the right, part of the us vs them doctrine, is to dig a hole, turn out the lights, watch the opposition fall into that hole, point the finger, laugh, and say “Look what you’ve gotten yourself into!”
July 21st, 2008 at 10:33 amit will come up with anything to try to convince us that Obama is evil incarnate
Since when is a person an “it”?
July 21st, 2008 at 10:34 amGoing after Bin Laden has never been the goal. Bush himself has said this.
The goal : Financial Boom for the Military Industrial Entertainment Corporate Complex.
Congress and it’s member’s investments in this Military are making a fortune!
July 21st, 2008 at 10:35 amMcWars Says: As you previously stated, capitalism puts money first and people second. Money is allowed to define the person. The broader implications of capitalism are disturbing.
A friend of mine says that Capitalism would be a good system if it weren’t for greed. Unfortunately, Capitalism is fueled by greed.
Europe is beginning to show signs of full-scale Socialism (not the theoretical brand that Cons like to vilify, but the modern and reality-based brand that Capitalism evolves into when people get tired of money being the main priority).
Seems Marx and Engles were far more prescient than they are given credit for being…
Full SS retirement for someone of McCain’s decade was 66 or 67. If you’re still working after that age you can still draw full benefits w/o any offset.
That’s ridiculous. He definitely should have been cut off by the cap you suggested. He’s never been a part of the hardworking middle class.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:36 amYour heads up appears to be correct. Thanks…moving on.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:37 amKay Says:
BHB:
By, saying we are going to send more troops to Afghanistan and saying that Iran is a “threat” is continuing our presence in the Middle East. Obama has joined “The Israeli Lobby” by coddling Isreal.
Do you really think that Obama would be elected if he told the voters that Iran was not a threat and that he would immediately withdraw all forces from the ME? I don’t even think that your beloved Cynthia McKinney believes that. I went to her Presidential website. Guess what. Nothing on the issues there. Then I went to her congressional website and nothing about Iran there.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:37 amBilbo Hussein Baggins Says: I think that you have both missed the most important thing to a Republican and that is how much POWER they have.
But in a Capitalistic society, doesn’t money = power?
July 21st, 2008 at 10:39 amI think Obama is trying as hard as he can to gather the facts while working in an extremely difficult setting. When the reich causes a problem, you know the solution’s going to be a tough one.
Add to the JCS Chairman’s skepticism yesterday about a “General Time Horizon” and emphasizing troop withdrawals based on a strong assessment system of evaluating conditions on the ground.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:40 amKay Says:
Obama is saying 16 months for Iraq (which is still too long)
This is another open-ended financial adventure for the Military Industrial Entertainment Corporate Complex.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:30 am
______
Short of someone inventing the teleporter, 16 months is about the fastest withdrawal from Iraq that’s physically possible.
The open question, of course, is whether that includes all the security contractors, a number of which will almost certainly be left in-country to provide dipsec for the embassy and aid personnel. Obama’s answers on this question so far have been a bit evasive, in my opinion. I’m hoping that he will return from Iraq with a better sense of how to deal with Blackwater et al as troops are withdrawn.
Still. As hawkish as Obama has sounded in his recent slide towards the center, he still frightens me a crapload less than McCain.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:41 amYes. I will vote for Obama.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:45 amYes. I will vote for Obama.
Yes. I will ignore the fact that he is pandering to the Right.
Yes. I will ignore the fact that he trashed the 4th Amendment.
Yes. I will to conitnue this Military Economy.
Yes. I don’t have a mind of my own.
Kay, I understand your depression but they have spent all of the money and all of the money that we could borrow.
Now, even republicans are ready for someone to get us back in the black.
bush II had to raise taxes at the end of the raygun era because they had nearly broke the country…….same thing now.
The wars will end because there is no more money. This whole thing was for profit as you say but it is over.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:46 amKay,
I wasn’t referring to the goals of the chimp.
You’re progressive with a lot of deep suspicion, obviously. But I believe the best strategy is to make sure this democratic candidate takes office next year so he can start dealing with the laundry list of problems plaguing our country. This is only the campaign trail. If anyone deserves the benefit of the doubt right now, it’s Barack Obama.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:48 amKay Says:
Going after Bin Laden has never been the goal. Bush himself has said this.
The goal : Financial Boom for the Military Industrial Entertainment Corporate Complex.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:35 am
While at the same time fully privatizing the military. Don’t forget who the #1 threat to America was on 9/10/2001:
July 21st, 2008 at 10:49 am
Kay, I have tried to reason with you as others here have tried but your defeatism is exactly what got us here in 2000.
Take your black attitude somewhere where it will be appreciated.
You offer no realisic solutions, just darkness and defeat. Either Obama or mcinsane will be elected in the fall, those are the facts…..deal with it.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:50 amOh. I guess I have my head in the sand:
July 21st, 2008 at 10:54 am2 stolens elections
2 illegal preemptive wars
our State Sponsored Terrorism (see 9/11)
4,000+ men and women dying in 2 illegal Oil Wars
a crumbling infrastructure
a tanking economy
a Million+ dead Iraqis
the Millions of displaced Iraqis
Katrina and it’s continuing aftermath
Our disgraced Moral Standing in the World (secret prisons, prisoner abuse)
The Patriot Act
The Military Commissions Act
The Homegrown Terrorist Prevention Act
The FISA Amendment Act
HELL on earth unleashed in the Middle East
People losing their homes left and right
$4+ a gallon for gas
skyrocketing food prices
US Attorney Scandal
lowered FDA standards
A dumber society
Greater disparity between rich and poor
A Disgraceful Environmental Policy
A Complicit Corporate Controlled Media
Manipulating Science
Executive Power Grab thus eliminating checks and balances
Disdain for the Constitution and The Bill of Rights
This “Phony War On Terror”
Kay Says:
Yes. I will vote for Obama.
Yes. I will vote for Obama.
Yes. I will ignore the fact that he is pandering to the Right.
Yes. I will ignore the fact that he trashed the 4th Amendment.
Yes. I will to conitnue this Military Economy.
Yes. I don’t have a mind of my own.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:45 am
I don’t like to provoke fellow progresive posters. It’s a wasted good relationship, especially aince there’s a common ideological ground. But I think it’s wholly unnecessary to mock supporters of our nominee.
Because, let’s face it, if McKinney can’t even state her positions on her website, as Bilbo noted, than she may have less than no chance in hell of winning.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:55 am. No one doubts that he is brighter and more charismatic than the irritating senator from Arizona. And no one underestimates his Pied Piper ability to galvanize crowds and stir up national pride. But what good is that? Obama works for the same group of venal plutocrats as Bush; a fact that was made painfully clear just last week when he voted to approve the new FISA bill that allows the president to continue spying on American citizens with impunity. Obama is a constitutional scholar; he understood what he was voting for. He was sending a message to his supporters that they don’t really matter; that what really counts is the small gaggle of powerful corporatists who run the country and believe the president is above the law. That’s what his vote really meant.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:00 amJuly 21, 2009:
US at war with Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:02 amCongress approval at 4%.
Gas at $12/ gallon.
Your laundry list is an endictment of the republicans. Thier power coup left the democrats powerless. Whether you believe that they fooled the American people or whether you believe that they stole the election……they have had the power. They are the one you should be hating and wanting out of power.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:03 amGood Morning poster’s, I send Blessings only…..To tired to comment and spend endless hour’s here or signing patition’s that have no effect….Hope you all have a wonderful day….Remember to give some one a hug, tell some one you love them and try to get away from your computer’s long enough to hug or plant a tree…Blessings~Peace~
July 21st, 2008 at 11:06 am-or-
July 21,2009:
Wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran are over.
Gas at pre-war levels.
President Obama’s approval rating : 92%
Congress approval rating: 75%
which is it going to be?
July 21st, 2008 at 11:06 am“The principal source of funding for highway projects will soon hit a big financial pothole” due to rising fuel prices. With motorists cutting back on driving and buying more fuel-efficient cars, “the government is taking in less money from the federal gasoline tax,” which means that “the federal highway trust fund could be in the red by $3.2 billion or more next year.”
See, now if we would have just listened to McCain and had our “gas tax holiday” then more people could afford more gas this summer and we would’ve raised.. more.. tax.. money… wait…
Nevermind.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:09 amKay Says:
Obama is a constitutional scholar; he understood what he was voting for. He was sending a message to his supporters that they don’t really matter; that what really counts is the small gaggle of powerful corporatists who run the country and believe the president is above the law. That’s what his vote really meant.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:00 am
______
True, he’s a constitutional scholar. Obama is also a Chicago Boy. This is an important detail of his economic philosophy that I’m certainly not overlooking in making my choice for November.
The plain and inconvenient truth of the matter is that no President of a major party has the power to overthrow the corporatocracy that runs this country, and no minor party candidate has the ability to overthrow the two-party system. The President is, unfortunately, a product of that system.
The only people who have to power to fight the corporatists who run this country are us. The 300 million of us who use their services and buy their products and invest in their companies. We can’t expect Washington to fix everything – we have to be taking on the corporatocracy at the same time that we change the Washington political climate.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:12 amKay Says:
Obama is saying 16 months for Iraq (which is still too long)
You think 16 months is too long to bring home 150,000 troops and their equipment?
That would be 9,375 a month or 313 a day. And then there are the 160,000 private contractors who need to get out. The American troops alone would be something like 6 flights a day.
The fact of the matter is no one can bring all our troops immediately. It took us a long time to get them there and it will take a long time to get them home responsibly and safely.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:13 amTeleMan Says:
Don’t worry, mccain has a solution. Make up the shortfall from the social security fund.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:14 amOpen Question:
Do TP’s progressives posters support “redeploying” our troops to Afghanistan where hundreds or thousands will likely die fighting al Qaeda and the Taliban, or should they all be brought home?
July 21st, 2008 at 9:25 am Recommend (0) | Report Abuse
I cannot speak for others, but for myself I share this Path:
July 21st, 2008 at 11:15 am
RE: Jenna’s Husband in White House Job
Let’s see: Boy of priviledge gets into Harvard on that priviledge. Graduates with a business degree.
1) Is this some kind of Oedipus / Electra complex on Jenna’s part?
2) Now working as aide for Bush: While Bush has thoroughly vetted and considered the skills of all of his appointments, can someone say ***NEPOTISM*** ? (Not that I would imply that other appointments were made on the basis of political factors.)
July 21st, 2008 at 11:17 am#McWars Says:
Kay Says:
blah…balh….blah
I don’t like to provoke fellow progresive posters. It’s a wasted good relationship, especially since there’s a common ideological ground. But I think it’s wholly unnecessary to mock supporters of our nominee.
Because, let’s face it, if McKinney can’t even state her positions on her website, as Bilbo noted, than she may have less than no chance in hell of winning.
Hi McWars…. I suggest we ignore Kay the way we ignore other irritating trolls. And it has definitely become a troll on the hand of RHF. It is going to come here every day to denigrate Obama, as long as we keep responding to it. So, I say we ignore our newest troll and maybe it will get bored and go away.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:17 amI will never get bored.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:19 amI will never go away.
Fred Says:
Don’t worry, mccain has a solution. Make up the shortfall from the social security fund.
Only if McCain gives back his monthly $1,930 SS.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:20 amI will never go away
…unlike our 4th Amendment Rights which have gone away…
July 21st, 2008 at 11:21 amTell me 10 damn good reasons why Obama voted in favor of the FISA Amendment Act of 2008?
July 21st, 2008 at 11:24 amKay Says:
Sorry Kay, your game is for losers and I don’t want to play. Try suggesting something that might help that can actually be accomplished by this fall.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:28 amDearest Fred,
You are in denial about Obama. He’s going to further ruin this country just like McCain will. But, with more flair and bigger words.
sincerely,
July 21st, 2008 at 11:31 amKay
You guys are horrible to other progressives who don’t have the same view as you. No wonder they get a tad defensive. This is why I don’t come here very often. Instead of debate, you just eat those whose opinion is different and get the rest who feel the same to back your bully-ish behavior.
Opps, I am about to get flagged for off topic…..
July 21st, 2008 at 11:34 ammore from Counterpunch:
Many of us who have criticized Obama are being dismissed as cynics, but that’s nonsense. The truth is that the left Obama supporters have projected their own values onto their candidate and are trying to make him out to be something that he is not. They put words in his mouth so they can continue to hold on to the crazy notion that the system really isn’t broken and that it can be fixed by simply pulling a lever on election day
July 21st, 2008 at 11:36 amIt’s possible, but I doubt that he had the mendacity to accomplish what bush has in the last 8 years. We are left with little choice but to see if he will do better. He cannot possibly do worse in my opinion.
peace and good luck to us all.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:36 amPoint well taken, Bilbo.
We’ve discussed Obama and FISA on all ends, Kay. The strategy of the members of a party, in case you haven’t noticed, is to get behind their nominee. We’ve thrown in constructive criticism of our nominee, unlike our opponents.
I hope your goal isn’t to come here everyday to convince posters here to turn on the democratic nominee. I wouldn’t understand the timing or the benefit of having that goal.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:38 amWHY?
July 21st, 2008 at 11:38 amThat’s fair enough. Obama has changed his position on his “support of a filibuster of any bill that includes retroactive immunity for telecommunications companies”. He has wormed his way out of a definite commitment on withdrawing the troops from Iraq. (which was a real lesson in Clintonian triangulation) He’s backed off on his promise to rewrite the NAFTA free trade agreement. He’s thrown his support behind Bush’s “faith-based” social programs which provide state money for religious organizations. He’s sided with the majority on the Supreme Court on gun rights and whether to ban the death penalty for rape. How can anyone support a candidate who is on the same ideological side of legal issues as Antonin Scalia?
Kay Says:
You are in denial about Obama. He’s going to further ruin this country just like McCain will. But, with more flair and bigger words.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:31 am
_______
Only if we let him.
The President of the United States is not some wind-up toy that we put in the oval office and forget about for four years. I plan to be just as critical of President Obama as I am about President Bush – criticizing bad policies, watching for abuses of power, and voicing my disagreement with his statements whenever we disagree. I believe a great many other posters on this site will be doing the same thing.
We’re not a bunch of pro-bama cheerleaders over here. We recognize that there’s a shitload of work to be done to fix this country and even among progressives we have disagreements about how to do it.
What I will guarantee you is that I, too, will never get bored, and I, too, will never go away.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:39 amBut, can you give me, ok, 5 good reasons why Obama voted for the FISA amendment?
July 21st, 2008 at 11:41 amLike we didn’t let Bush? You all have this illusion of control. We the people have no control. We have the illusion of control.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:42 amHe’s going to further ruin this country just like McCain will
Alright, either big pharma has you down on the side effects, or you’re too cynical in the face of the hell of the last eight years. A person recovering from depression, for example, can find it difficult to imagine life w/o being depressed, so they opt to defer treatment.
Whatever your motivation, it isn’t acceptable to post this borderline absurdity every day during an election cycle.
Please criticize constructively and stick to your strong suit of discussing the real issues.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:47 amKay Says:
But, can you give me, ok, 5 good reasons why Obama voted for the FISA amendment?
July 21st, 2008 at 11:41 am
______
Actually, he vote for the FISA bill, but against the telecom immunity amendment. Just to clarify. But to answer your question:
1. He wants to be president
July 21st, 2008 at 11:49 am2. Democrats are constantly criticized by the right as “weak on defense”
3. A vote against FISA would be spun as him being “weak on defense”
4. IF 1=”true” THEN { 2=”true” AND 3=”true”}
5. GOTO 1
I just peaked back in and noticed we now have 2 with great comment’s and question’s….Well ladies I;m with you today and alway’s if not here, in spirit…Thank you for your comment’s and question’s Kay and Bluedahlia…
I keep asking the same question’s and wondering how far to the right the chosen dem. is going to push the libral’s before they wake up and I also wonder how many constitutional law’s will be broken before they realise what they have given up for a false win on their side.
Perhap’s the most sad of all is the fact so many good poster’s have now joined like the right with a group think of attacking some of their own because they question the blind loyalty of the many…Also why I have left many site’s….I send Blessings, we really need them now…
July 21st, 2008 at 12:01 pmWitch1, Kay and Bluedahlia
Where do you guys get the energy to beat a dead horse for so long?
I have been polite to you all and will continue to do so but until you offer a serious alternative then you are just farting in the wind and helping the republicans while doing it and that is just unacceptable to me.
Please state succintly exactly what you think should happen. It has to be viable and a revolution is not viable.
It has to be something that can actually happen.
If you think that taking your marbles and going home and taking as many people with you as you can will help us then I am afraid that you are just being petulant.
July 21st, 2008 at 12:15 pmI just had my meds adjusted — and I can clearly assert this country needs another revolution.
July 21st, 2008 at 12:15 pmHi McWars…. I suggest we ignore Kay the way we ignore other irritating trolls. And it has definitely become a troll on the hand of RHF. It is going to come here every day to denigrate Obama, as long as we keep responding to it. So, I say we ignore our newest troll and maybe it will get bored and go away.
Bilbo and others, ignore Kay and Bluedahlia at your own peril. While we know what we will be getting with McCain, we have hopes of what we will be getting with Obama. But if we cling to those hopes in spite of reality, are we no better than those who cling to supporting Bush&Co?
Kay and Bluedahlia are giving you a reality check. We and the world are looking for a charismatic leader, and we have found on in Obama. But the question is, will he be another Ghandi, or another Hitler? How long will you continue to support him should he continue the path towards authoritarianism and totalitarianism? I’m not saying that that direction is a foregone conclusion, but Kay, Bluedahlia and I all see that as a possibility.
Will you ignore me as well?
July 21st, 2008 at 12:19 pmRegarding the former progressive Kay now turned troll.
Just out of curiosity, I checked the last couple of days and it appears that the only time Kay posts to TP any longer is on the Think Fast Threads and only to slam Obama. I suggest that we just ignore Kay and let him rail in silence. Maybe he will get bored and go away.
July 21st, 2008 at 12:24 pmFred, it is not a matter of offering a serious alternative. Our “choices” present us with nothing but an illusion of representative democracy.
Those of us who have seen through the illusion will be the first to disappear. The mechanisms are in place. Purges are coming.
July 21st, 2008 at 12:24 pmIt’s coming. It won’t be a violent one though. Capitalism has just about run it’s course here as it already has in Europe.
The system is damaged but it is not broken. The reason it didn’t work in 2000 is because the republicans convinced enough people that there was no point….that Al Gore was just like bush that democrats stayed home….
the system is still in place and it can work if enough people engage it.
Record numbers of democrats and liberals will be hitting the polls this year. That is our revolution.
If we show them that we have to be considered in their decisions or they will be replaced then things will change.
July 21st, 2008 at 12:26 pm#162,
Boy you must have a lot of time on your hands.
July 21st, 2008 at 12:29 pmYour assertions about my posts are untrue.
This will be my final post today on this issue Fred….With all due respect I have stated before with the internet and our capabilaties of today all voter’s could join together and pick a better suited candidate..One who is for the constitution, not against it..Someone who is anti war’s and continued support…
There are many, not counting the 105 in the house and 68 in the senate that voted with the reich to pick from….May I suggest you all are the one’s farting in a wind storm as you so clearly said we were doing…You all have hitched your wagon’s to a horse that has shown you before the election he will do as he chooses, just as the last bunch did…He is also going with Israel 100% to bomb the shit out of Iran…
I ask you all how far are you willing to go, how much are you willing to give up all with the thought you are winning back the white house?..Pick someone else that want’s to save our country and constitution not like the one’s you now have chosen that can’t or won’t even honor their present oath of office to protect our constitution from all enemy’s foreign and domestic…We are not your enemy either but just maybe your chosen one has joined those rank’s…To give up all our right’s to win an office at all cost is giving us nothing but more misery…If you can’t get a candidate to vote for the constitution now what the hell do you think will happen when you appoint him as another king?..
Love you all but do not agree with your group think that you have no choice..As long as you think that way you are correct, you don’t…Blessings.
July 21st, 2008 at 12:37 pmRumor Debunked: No Flip-Flop on Global Warming
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20080718/sc_livescience/rumordebunkednoflipfloponglobalwarming;_ylt=AvLYqz35GQy2Xi47S4Z1zQSs0NUE
Andrea Thompson
Senior Writer
LiveScience.com
Fri Jul 18, 2:10 PM ET
Claims are floating around the blogosphere that the American Physical Society, the leading professional organization for physicists, has reversed its position on global warming.
But on its Web site, the APS has reaffirmed that it supports the consensus view that human-caused greenhouse gas emissions are warming the planet.
Ammunition agaisnt GW deniers…
Yusuf Islam wins damages for “veiled women” slur
Fri Jul 18, 2:16 PM ET
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080718/od_nm/stevens_court_dc;_ylt=AqIxXsMr3Tgz58L5toM2JqCs0NUE
LONDON (Reuters) – British folk singer Yusuf Islam, formerly Cat Stevens, accepted libel damages and an apology on Friday from a news agency that reported he had refused to talk to women at an awards ceremony who were not wearing a veil.
The artist, who changed his name after becoming a Muslim in the late 1970s, will donate the “substantial” payout to Small Kindness, a U.N.-linked charity he chairs.
Adam Tudor, the singer’s attorney, told London’s High Court that the story behind the legal action was published by World Entertainment News Network and was used on Contactmusic.com, a website said to have 2.2 million page views a month.
And against christian fundamentalists…
Clinton vows to fight “insulting” abortion plan
By Michelle Nichols
Fri Jul 18, 7:59 PM ET
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080718/hl_nm/abortion_usa_clinton_dc;_ylt=ArT4eKK8gMaCBu0uPB0IvRus0NUE
NEW YORK (Reuters) – A Bush administration plan to define several widely used contraception methods as abortion is a “gratuitous, unnecessary insult” to women and faces tough opposition, Sen. Hillary Clinton said on Friday.
The former Democratic presidential candidate joined family planning groups to condemn the proposal that defines abortion to include contraception such as birth control pills and intrauterine devices.
She’s not my favorite Democratic politician, but this effort is worth the fight, IMHO.
Soldier in famous photo never defeated ‘demons’
By ALLEN G. BREED and KEVIN MAURER, Associated Press Writers
Sun Jul 20, 5:34 PM ET
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080720/ap_on_re_us/military_the_enemy_within;_ylt=AiPy2unZ8017UjZD3cNyd9ys0NUE
PINEHURST, N.C. – Officers had been to the white ranch house at 560 W. Longleaf many times before over the past year to respond to a “barricade situation.” Each had ended uneventfully, with Joseph Dwyer coming out or telling police in a calm voice through the window that he was OK.
But this time was different.
The uncounted victims of the war. A heart breaking history of a good person willing to help…
Right and Wrong: How War Changes Children
Meredith F. Small
LiveScience’s Human Nature Columnist
LiveScience.com
Fri Jul 18, 9:16 AM ET
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20080718/sc_livescience/rightandwronghowwarchangeschildren;_ylt=AgG3DGIAQxC8onxkuYBdqo.s0NUE
Childhood is the happiest, most carefree of times. That is, unless your country has been torn apart by war.
The United Nations estimates that children in 50 countries are currently growing up in the midst of war or its ugly aftermath. In the past decades, 2 million children have been killed and 6 million injured in war-torn places. And 23 million children have been forced from their homes.
…and the fate of the children in the countries were war is waged. Why war must be the VERY LAST option.
July 21st, 2008 at 12:44 pmYour points are valid, Witch. I do apologize if I my posts became too combative.
But my view is that there’s a line to cross, and Kay has crossed it with a an arrogant style in mocking Obama supporters. For him to cite the neocon damage of the last eight years as evidence that Obama will potentially destroy the country is over the top.
To me it makes no sense to rub a long-shot third-party candidate in the face of the supporters of the presumptive democratic nominee. Kay’s been doing this well before Obama voted against FISA.
July 21st, 2008 at 12:46 pm*voted for FISA
July 21st, 2008 at 12:47 pmFred Says:
Witch1, Kay and Bluedahlia
Where do you guys get the energy to beat a dead horse for so long?
The 4th is hardly a dead horse, unless we the people let them get away with trashing it, yes Obama voted for trashing it too.
I canceled my monthly donations to Obama for this issue. Yes I may vote for Obama this Nov, because no viable alternative candidate is really available.
After Nov, I will be trying to push to create a viable 3rd party or remove all Bush lapdogs ( DINOs ) and replace them with real progressive candidates.
It is high time to get rid of the neocons and Bush lapdogs from the Democratic party. Let them go to the failed Republican party, which they have actually been supporting in reality.
Dead horse, hardly. These are issues all Progressives should be talking about
Calling other progressives trolls because they don’t follow “your opinions” is total bullsh!t though, Fred and others
July 21st, 2008 at 12:48 pmIf you had taken the time to read the posts you would know that I have not called them a troll once.
monitor your own behavior before you start policing mine.
July 21st, 2008 at 12:58 pmThank you BnF, Wayne and McWar for your comment’s.I send Blessings to all here..The witch is now flying away on her tired little broom….
July 21st, 2008 at 12:58 pmPick 10 names from Chimpy’s administration and use those powers on these enemies of the Constitution. I know it will be tough to pick 10, so feel free to expand the list as necessary.
July 21st, 2008 at 1:16 pmFred Says:
monitor your own behavior before you start policing mine.
Maybe you check on your dead horse, Fred. It be stinking up the place.
July 21st, 2008 at 1:17 pmOne of the biggest differences between “Progressives” and Neo-Cons has been the willingness on the part of progressives to entertain opposing points of view, while Neo-Cons seek to silence opposing points of view.
If you hold to the belief that to criticize Obama is to undermine him, then you are really no different than those who hold that to criticize Bush is to undermine him.
The fact of the matter is, the only politician totally aligned with (my perception of) progressive points of view is Dennis Kucinich. The powers in charge marginalized him, and are attempting to get him voted out of office. He is too much a threat to their continued rule.
The strings thus pulled, progressives rush to support Obama, throwing blind trust behind a charismatic candidate. Why is it Kucinich garnered so little support? Because he is wrong on the issues? Hardly. It is precicely because he is right on the issues that he did not draw much support.
Blind trust is never wise; not when picking a spouse, and not when picking a leader who will control enough military might to destroy the entire world.
July 21st, 2008 at 1:36 pmtruther21 Says
July 21st, 2008 at 12:59 pm
However, Obama still has the edge in the Electoral College which so many progessives have argued should be eliminated. Perhaps now their views on the Electoral College will change?
_____________________________________________________________
Not as fast as the Republicans’ views on the Electoral College will change if for some reason Obama wins on EC votes only.
July 21st, 2008 at 1:38 pmWe have been talking about it. At some point you have to make a decision and move on….forward hopefully.
Please explain what you think can be done about this realistically in the next 6 months that Americans will embrace.
If you think Obama will be replaced as the democratic nominee then you are not living in the real world.
If you think the fisa law will be changed in the next 6 months then you are not living in the real world.
If you think there will be a revolution in the next 6 months then…..well you get the drift.
I have asked repeatedly for someone to suggest what the answer might be but a revolution or brow beatings from the likes of you is all I get…….
It is not progressive to help move us backwards. That is my opinion and just as I have not denied anyone here their opinion, I will not be denied mine just because you assume some kind of authority here.
Try entering the discussion instead of coming in swinging. You are just looking for a fight and I am not interested.
July 21st, 2008 at 1:39 pmPerhaps those who are voting against Obama because of his FISA vote should contact him. I have before and gotten answers to my concerns.
Today McCain is with Bush Sr. and while some feel Jr. has been working for Cheney all this time, I think Cheney has been working for Bush Sr. And Bush Sr. was a around when Kennedy was shot and his long arm seems involved in every evil deed since.
Deny it all you want but either McCain or Obama will be president next year. And I for one have had enough of letting stupid people embarrass us all in front of the world. McCain would have been thrown out of the Naval Academy if it wasn’t for the admirals in his family and even with those connections graduated 3rd from the bottom of his class.
People should vote for who ever they want, that’s their right. But some of us believe at this point that Obama needs to make concessions to get elected. Most people who vote will not have as much information as we have and so they will believe the crap the media feeds them instead of looking for the facts. Therefore it is necessary for a candidate to play defensively to protect himself from the MSM conspiracy to keep the reich in power.
And I personally believe that Obama as a constitutional lawyer knows there are loopholes in that bill that can be redresses. I could be wrong but I’m willing to take that chance.
July 21st, 2008 at 1:41 pmMy purported arrogance is debatable; if it comes across that way — I do apologize. And if certain people want to characterize me as a troll, so be it. I am here as a tax payer of this country with opinions.
I am very angry about the past 8 years and the direction this country has taken. I vascillate between my concscious (Cynthia McKinney) and how to destroy McBomb (Obama) —
Certain people on this site subscribe to a very dangerous groupthink.
I hope Obama prosecutes the Bush Admin for War Crimes. I really hope he restores the 4th Amendment.
Is all this Military/Tough on “Terroris” Bluster just to get
elected?
God I hope so.
July 21st, 2008 at 1:46 pmI meant:
Is all this Military/Tough talk on “Terrorism” Bluster just to get elected?
July 21st, 2008 at 1:47 pmAt some point it becomes more of a detriment unless you can suggest a way around the realities that exist.
It’s also not like we are not fully aware either. I have not heard one single person here say they liked the fisa decision….not one.
My hope is to get democrats elected and then hold their feet to the fire or get rid of them. If republicans remain in control this will not be possible.
July 21st, 2008 at 1:54 pmWhile I support the right of the anti-Obama folks to express their views here I also feel that we have the right to say that it hurts Obamas chances for winning the election. And when McCain is sitting in the White House we are all going to wish we’d done more.
July 21st, 2008 at 1:59 pmI am OVERJOYED that my phone calls and e-mails can be read and heard without a warrant!
I am THRILLED that the telecoms received immunity from prosection!
July 15th: What a Great Day for the Constitution!
July 21st, 2008 at 2:01 pmLong live The Empire!
Kay, you use the word groupthink about us like it actually applies to us as it does to the gop kool aid drinkers.
Groupthink is accepting what they say without question. We question and we will continue to question but unity and groupthink are not the same.
Right now the die is cast for the next 6 months and you have to be an adult and be patient. These things take time. You can’t always have what you want right now and to make it all or nothing reflects immaturity.
democrats and republicans are not the same.
remember that the republicans have banked on the religious right to vote with them over wedge issues for years. Abortion and gay rights drive good people to vote against their own best interests. I see this issue as the same type of divisive issue.
you are basically carrying water for the republicans in my view right now. I’m not saying there won’t be a time to bring this back up but now is not the time.
Yes!
July 21st, 2008 at 2:07 pmKay, are you so naive to believe that if this FISA bill hadn’t passed that you wouldn’t be listened too. I believe the one comment Obama made was that this bill at least insisted that they use the FISA court when before they weren’t using FISA at all just spying with no oversight.
July 21st, 2008 at 2:10 pmOn July 10th, Bush has signed into law the FISA Amendment Act. The law allows the government to spy on emails, phone calls, web surfing, and other communications without warrants. The law also includes immunity to telecommunication companies who participated in an illegal spying by the government. An older version past by the House was threatened to be veto by President Bush for not including this immunity.
The ACLU has issued a statement calling the law unconstitutional, while others have pointed that this law is an assault on fundamental rights such as the first and fourth amendments.
According to Mark Klein a person who worked for AT&T for 22 years, the government built secrets rooms in communication companies across the U.S. and have been monitoring countless citizens in all forms of internet communications.
Numerous democrats have voted for the bill, among them Nancy Pelosi and Barack Obama. Obama voted for the bill, although he had promised to oppose the bill if it guaranteed immunity to the telecommunication companies. Obama has justified this by stating that the government should have the ability to defend the American people from terror attacks and that the newer version of the FISA bill allows a secret court, not the president, the right to decide who can be spied on.
July 21st, 2008 at 2:14 pm1/21/09:
Day ONE: Hold Obama’s feet to the fire.
July 21st, 2008 at 2:16 pmIt will be challenged. Who do you want appointing the next supreme court justice? mccain or Obama?
July 21st, 2008 at 2:22 pmNeither….Based on the recent voting against the constitution you are merely adding one more right leaning polatician to the pool of 105 in the house and 68 dem’s. in the senate that think the constitution and country should be run by another dictator..Likely either would support another roberts or scalia….Blessings and Peace..
July 21st, 2008 at 2:34 pmWitch1 you better be careful. How dare you come here and express your opinions! How dare you express a wish to have our elected officials uphold the Constitution and The Bill of Rights!
What! You want to be called the “t” word?
July 21st, 2008 at 2:40 pmet al -
Briseadh na Faire Says:
If you hold to the belief that to criticize Obama is to undermine him, then you are really no different than those who hold that to criticize Bush is to undermine him.
i haven’t read anything that suggests anyone believes that…
… it isn’t about the criticism… gripe and groan all you want…
but when it comes to the talk of 3rd party or otherwise wasting votes, there is no excuse.
it’s selfish and self-serving.
narrow-minded and short-sighted.
but, mostly selfish.
.
July 21st, 2008 at 2:41 pmKay, this is from your comment. The new bill says they have to use the FISA court instead of the administration spying on everybody. That was Obama’s reason for voting for it so that at least they’d have to use the FISA court instead of ignoring that step like they had been doing. They spying was going on totally unregulated.
July 21st, 2008 at 2:41 pmKay Says:
1/21/09:
Day ONE: Hold Obama’s feet to the fire.
Great. But could you wait until then?
July 21st, 2008 at 2:41 pmfred and shayne have spoken well…
with more patience and good will than i have…
thanks to them.
July 21st, 2008 at 2:42 pmWe need to remember that the “average” voter is a low information voter and probably more right leaning than we are. That’s why while we all like Kucinich and would be happy to vote for him he would never be elected. There’s a lot of thinking around here that the entire country thinks the FISA bill is as important as we do but the fact is most of the country doesn’t know what it is. And if they said Obama doesn’t want to spy on terrorists because he voted against the bill and with the ACLU many on the middle would believe it. Sometimes the people on this site give way to much credit to the average American for their knowledge and intelligence on the facts.
It isn’t HOW you play the game it’s whether you WIN or lose.
July 21st, 2008 at 2:46 pmAnd to a point we will have the ability to do that. But if McCain wins all is lost.
July 21st, 2008 at 2:47 pmhere’s the enemy:
The Real Reason For McCain’s Friday Night Phil Gramm Dump
http://drinkliberal.blogspot.com/2008/07/real-reason-for-mccains-friday-night.html
amazing…
July 21st, 2008 at 2:54 pmShayne, I love and respect you but I do not share your thought on this one…Having spent my entire life for civil right’s, the constitution and country what I saw on the senate floor that day was betrayal…It was the worst betrayal of all to me and my buddie’s that worked our entire live’s for Obama to be in the position he is in and then break his oath of office and vote against the constitution and people of our country…There are only 6 of us. 3 black’s from the MLK marche’s in the south 2 latinos from Calif and 1 old witch from calif. and we will not under any circumstance vote against our country or constitution….No man is above the law, country or constitution….The worst is he didn’t need to vote that way, they already had enough vote’s, even I added it up while watching…Even I could of over looked his speeche’s of backing Israel and their war like way’s along with several other thing’s in the week’s before the FISA vote, but this one I will not….I did write and was on his mailing list and blog’s….I got no response of value for his huge betrayal..
Maybe what everyone should be spending their time on is finding a better candidate..I’m not saying Obama is a bad person, I’m saying he’s NOT GOOD ENOUGH…Not even close.
For year’s now I get the same thing, now is not the time….Every time I said if not now when?…..Well we are way past time…Perhap’s another loss will wake the uninformed voter’s up, who know’s….
I do know if Obama looses it will not be because of our 6 vote’s, it will be because he condoned law breaking and betrayed us and the law of the land..It will be because people like Ron Paul, Mkinne(sp), Nadar look better standing with the constitution…It will be because the voting machine’s still are not fixed, the war is going to continue and many other reason’s…I have read lately all the old time dem’s have left him
because he has made a hard right, well, there ya go….
Shun us, call us troll’s, what ever…Just remember those of us that are critical and unmoving now are the very one’s that helped get all these right’s in place and keep them….I will never vote for a man or woman who is working to dismantel those right’s…..Blessings~Peace…Sorry for the length..
July 21st, 2008 at 3:24 pmNice link, katy. Now waiting for the MSM to jump on this and ask McIIIrd point blank.
“Can you assure us that your wife doesn’t hold one of the accounts in question in the UBS Lichtenstein inquiry?”
(**crickets**), (***chirping***)
July 21st, 2008 at 3:25 pmBriseadh na Faire Says:
Kay and Bluedahlia are giving you a reality check.
At some point it becomes more of a detriment unless you can suggest a way around the realities that exist.
July 21st, 2008 at 1:54 pm
The way around the realities we are facing is the same route taken during the French Revolution: genocide committed against the aristocracy. I am not advocating such a course of action, but it is inevitable, when things get bad enough for enough of the masses.
The wheel has already been set in motion for a third or more of the global population to not survive the next 50 years. Nothing manunkind can do will stop that from happening. Roughly 5% of the global population has amassed such vast wealth that they believe they can weather the storm behind their fortresses.
Those of us who criticize Obama here are nothing compared to those who manipulate the masses through the mainstream media.
Do you want a reality check? Ask Obama and McCain under which circumstances would they authorize the use of microwave or plasma weapons against civilian populations. Ask if they have any contingency plans should Yellowstone erupt in a supervolcano. Ask what infrastructure plans they will initiate to move coastal cities to higher ground over the next 50 years. Ask how they plan to deal with the health crisis of superbugs created by years of antibiotic use; and the effects of chemicals and genetic engineering on our food supply.
While our government can eavesdrop on us at will and we argue over FISA and other crimes against the Constitution, the above issues and more go unanswered. No one wants to look at the hard questions. We’re far more interested in Britteny’s lack of undergarments.
While those on the Right and those on the Left are becoming more and more polarized, the average ‘merican doesn’t give a damn. They will continue to make do with less and less, as long as they have the illusion that all is right in their world. ‘merican Idle gives them that illusion…
sorry about the rant….
July 21st, 2008 at 5:23 pmShayne, and everyone: this is the same argument-er, DISCUSSION – I have with a friend of mine. She’s sure that America as we know it is dead, and she had resigned from the system. She’s waiting for it to collapse totally so it can be rebuilt from the ground up.
I’m not so sure that I’m ready to let it go yet, nor am I sure that we’re at that point where I believe that America *is* dead.
America is most certainly gravely ill; most likely on life support, and I haven’t much hope that she will recover.
However, I still have hope (there’s that word!) that we *can* change things (there’s that other word!) – and I’m not willing to say “Screw it” and stop being a part of the system.
That’s why I remain committed to Obama – in spite of the anger I feel over what I (and lots of you) saw as a betrayal in his “yes” vote on the FISA bill. But I, like Shayne, got an answer that, if it didn’t calm my fears completely, it at least got me to the point where I can reserve judgement.
And right now, people, unless you believe that our system is broken beyond repair and all that’s left for you is to say “Screw it” – our only other choice is to make damned good and sure that Obama gets elected in November — along with a Democratic House and Senate so we can start undoing all the damage done by the Chimperor and his criminal cronies.
If Obama doesn’t get elected, or he proves to be just another corporately owned poltician…well, then we’ll have to go to Plan B: the Second American Revolution.
~A
July 21st, 2008 at 6:47 pmYou guys seem to be ok with war, death and destruction. In fact it seems to be something you crave. Too bad. It’s not what I want to see happen.
Violence and war are poor excuses for solutions and they are doomed to fail unless you want domination…..
I’m not sure what you guys want but I don’t want the same things.
Besides, there are only a handful of you that are willing(you say you are) to take to the streets with your guilliotines on wheels and met out your own special type of justice to whoevever YOU decide warrents it.
I am against that course of action. It seldom has worked out in history. Look at the revolution in 1917 in Russia. It was a workers revolution against an Emperial Ruler…..it gave them Stalin….
Look at the French revolution that you quote as if you think it is a real solution. France was decimated for 100 years.
Look at the peoples revolution in Cuba. Castro wasn’t such a great guy after the dust settled either.
Do you really advocate this as a solution? Seriously?
Do you really want a reality check? I don’t think you have thought this all the way out.
Katy said it best….it is shortsightedness.
July 21st, 2008 at 6:53 pmFred,
I am not saying a Revolution is desirable, I am saying it is inevitable if we continue down the path we are upon. That’s a big difference.
July 21st, 2008 at 8:30 pmFred and all,
July 21st, 2008 at 9:16 pmI didn’t mention a revolution today either, I clearly stated I would not vote for Obama because of his vote on FISA along with many other thing’s now….You can’t “hold his feet to the fire now, many of us tried, there is no way you are going to once he is in and helping Israle bomb Iran and maybe vote against other item’s in the constitution..You all continue with your group think, I choose my country and constitution first….The rule of law and oath of office must be and is my main concern…Blessings
I remember back in 2006 when we just knew the Dems were going to do something then. The system wasn’t broken and our representatives were going to impeach and get our country back on track. Look how well that turned out. But, hey, let’s do the same thing with this election and hope our representatives will do the right thing this time. (Because they didn’t have the last 2 years to do anything, now did they?) This time will be different, I can just feel the hope in the air….How many “this time”s are there going to be, people? Seriously, wake up and learn from history. (even immediate history should tell you something if long term doesn’t!) If they can’t vote for the constitution now, what the hell makes you think they will later?
July 22nd, 2008 at 2:22 pm