CIA memos say ’specific intent’ of ‘pain and suffering’ necessary for interrogations to be considered torture.
CIA memos say ’specific intent’ of ‘pain and suffering’ necessary for interrogations to be considered torture.
Today, the ACLU released a series of memos exchanged between the Justice Department and the CIA from 2002 through 2004. According to Raw Story, the memos effectively say that “as long as CIA agents could convince themselves they were not deliberately inflicting severe pain or suffering on detainees, they were free to do virtually anything in their questioning of suspected terrorists, including waterboarding.” Here’s an example from an August 2002 memo:
To violate the statute [against torture], an individual must have the specific intent to inflict severe pain or suffering. Because specific intent is an element of the offense, the absence of specific intent negates the charge of torture. As we have previously opined, to have the required specific intent, an individual must expressly intend to cause such severe pain and suffering.
The ACLU obtained the memos through a Freedom of Information Act request, but they were still heavily redacted. The government blacked out 10 pages of the 18 page August 2002 memo.
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Bradbury of the OLC told Congress this exact thing at his hearing a few months ago so this should come as no surprise.
July 24th, 2008 at 2:36 pm“Specific intent”? So, if they’re torturing someone in order to achieve some other mean, they’re not really torturing someone?
“Deliberately inflicting pain”? This isn’t accidentally hurting someone, anything they did to the detainees in order to obtain information was deliberate, no question about it.
July 24th, 2008 at 2:37 pmObviously the interrogators intended to cause severe pain and suffering – they were forcing prisoners to answer their questions.
So, there you have it. By their own definition, they tortured. Can we impeach them now?
July 24th, 2008 at 2:37 pmSo if I convince myself that I am not intent on inflicting severe pain and suffering on my crazy ass christian neighbor then I can kick the sh!t out of him and that makes it legal? Cool.
With the Bush Crime Mafia it’s all in the wording, black is white, war is peace, torture is college pranks.
Bush/Cheney
July 24th, 2008 at 2:37 pmHague Trials ‘09
So, the United States does torture.
July 24th, 2008 at 2:39 pmThat’s the biggest load of crap yet.
July 24th, 2008 at 2:39 pmIntent is the difference between Murder 1 and Murder 2…. it doesn’t really make much of a difference to the victim…
July 24th, 2008 at 2:40 pman individual must expressly intend to cause such severe pain and suffering.
Oops, my mistake, I didn’t intend for you to think you were suffering from lack of oxygen due to all the water we poured over your face.
Thanks for making our country a laughing stock.
July 24th, 2008 at 2:40 pmIn other words, “severe pain or suffering” just happens? Like shit happens?
July 24th, 2008 at 2:41 pmThis shouldn’t hurt a bit.
Oh, it does? Oh well, I didn’t mean to, really.
July 24th, 2008 at 2:41 pmI avoided a head on collision this morning on my way to work from a woman who fell asleep at the wheel after a night shift.
Even though I was actually driving in the ditch as she continued at me, she still clipped my driver’s side mirror.
Killing or injuring me wasn’t her specific intent.
Does this mean she’s innocent for the damages? I think not.
Torture is a War crime. War crimes are punishable by death.
July 24th, 2008 at 2:46 pmIn other words, “severe pain or suffering” just happens? Like shit happens?
And sometimes, while unintentionally suffering severe pain, a person can ‘let go’ and shit themselves!
July 24th, 2008 at 2:46 pmThat is pure, unadulterated bullshit.
July 24th, 2008 at 2:46 pmThis is how twisted your logic has to become to be able to say that the “U.S. does not torture.”
Heckuva job, Bushie.
July 24th, 2008 at 2:46 pmMan I wish I could call in at work. I really really wanna see how the oddballs try to justify this BS
July 24th, 2008 at 2:48 pmOur goverment by the people, for the people, in tatters.
July 24th, 2008 at 2:48 pmI find it sickening how far these people are willing to go to justify torturing people. I also find it sickening that they don’t seem to realize, or care, that they have opened Pandora’s box and we are going to have a very difficult time closing it. Anyone who signs up for the military today needs to be warned that because of the actions of this administration, they will most likely be tortured if they are captured by an enemy.
July 24th, 2008 at 2:49 pmLike the doctor “You may notice some discomfort ” sniggle sniggle as
July 24th, 2008 at 2:49 pmTeleman says:” thanks for making our country a laughingstock “
Torture, like battery, is a general intent crime. Unless the Perp is as dumb as W, he knows the nature of his acts.
I wonder if whoever wrote that memo had the specific intent to torture logic.
July 24th, 2008 at 2:53 pmZimzone Says:
July 24th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
I’m glad you’re ok, Zimzone.
July 24th, 2008 at 2:53 pmI’ve heard this before. It’s the George Costanza defense.
“It’s not a lie if you believe it”
July 24th, 2008 at 2:58 pmWas it that “intent” that caused McCain to make those statements? Again I ask does torture work or doesn’t it?
July 24th, 2008 at 2:59 pmIn the theocracy of America faith is the most important thing to have. Faith is belief. If you believe that you are not torturing someone, regardless of what THEY think about your actions, then YOU must be correct because you stand on the high moral ground. Therefore it is all okey-dokey. In addition, they are not ‘torturing’ — they are ‘interrogating’. Sadists torture for amusement, but these people are ‘interrogating’ for information. If you can’t see the clear difference then you must not be a good member of the GOP.
July 24th, 2008 at 2:59 pmGOP to Americans: “Shut up and drink the damn koolaid.”
This is to be expected; an interrogation policy based on every abusive, paranoid drunk’s excuse: “I didn’t mean to break her leg…I mean, yeah I hit her with the bat, but I didn’t mean to hurt her….”
Inspired, no doubt, by our Dipsomaniac-in-Chief.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:02 pmWelcome to Bush/Cheney’s blue dress.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:02 pm…they believed `in good faith’ that harsh techniques used to break the will of prisoners, including waterboarding, would not cause ‘prolonged mental harm.’
They also couldn’t be prosecuted if they crossed their fingers behind their backs.
This is the biggest load of hooey I have ever read. And I’m betting it will be ignored by the MSM. All this says is that our government knew they were breaking the law by using torture and they were looking for a “get out of jail free” card.
I wonder if the men in the CIA who conducted the torture have continued nightmares about what they did. If they don’t, that can only mean that they do not have a conscience or a soul.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:06 pm“Enhanced interrogation techniques” are like extreme sports. Next year instead of bungee-jumping everyone will be going to water-boarding camps. It’s fun! Bring along grandma, she’ll have a blast (and in the process she’ll tell you all those sorrid family secrets she’s been keeping to herself). Fun AND informative! Yay!!
July 24th, 2008 at 3:08 pmHi Jim:
July 24th, 2008 at 3:08 pmI assume Vietnam was the same. Did McCain tell the truth? I figure he said anything to stop it. What do you think?
Zooey Says:
I’m glad you’re ok, Zimzone
Thanks, Zooey…one never knows what one’s day holds in store, eh? (I was the most upset about spilling my tea.)
July 24th, 2008 at 3:10 pmBush’s torture deals with “intent,” while Clinton’s sex centered around the word “insert”, both stupid in the eyes of the world. Unfortunately, Bush’s blue dress began in 2005 and continues today. Someone clean up the stain on our reputation!
July 24th, 2008 at 3:11 pmWhat comes to mind is Samuel L. Jackson in “Pulp Fiction.” After he shoots and kills an unarmed guy, he turns to another guy he’s questioning and says, “Oh I’m sorry, did I hurt your concentration?”
July 24th, 2008 at 3:13 pmOf course the government knew they were breaking national and international law — that’s why we have the Yoo document and the continued arguments and redactions and on and on….
Those 25 White House lawyers must be working overtime to protect all the criminals and criminal activity in this administration.
I’d imagine that they’d have thrown SOMEONE under the bus on this if they thought it would end there, but since the issue runs directly to the highest levels of government (i.e. Cheney’s office) there is really no one they can scapegoat on this and have it not continue up the ladder (though they tried with the AG torture-photo issue).
July 24th, 2008 at 3:14 pmZooey Says:
——————————————————————————–
That is pure, unadulterated bullshit.
You stole the words right out of my fingertips.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:14 pmGod. This makes me so sick. And so very, very angry.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:15 pmWith over 50% of this document redacted, one has to wonder what the rest of the text actually approved…
July 24th, 2008 at 3:15 pmJim Wilke Says:
I watched Letterman discuss the issue last night.
As he said, ‘We’re talking about war here, not shuffleboard.’
What a big ol’ MAN you are, Jim! The Chimperator can always count on you to defend the indefensible.
Heckuva job, Jimmy.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:17 pmGet over it losers…
July 24th, 2008 at 3:18 pmCIA memos say ’specific intent’ of ‘pain and suffering’ necessary for interrogations to be considered torture.
– - This is the (il)logical extension of “If the President does it, it’s not a crime.”
July 24th, 2008 at 3:18 pmNever forget: get them before they get you…
July 24th, 2008 at 3:20 pmEven a lawyer from Regents University should know that this is bullshit.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:22 pmaceomalley7 is silly.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:23 pmaceomalley7 Says:
Never forget: get them before they get you…
– - We have met the enemy, and he is us.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:24 pmI’d say I’m a realist…
July 24th, 2008 at 3:24 pmaceomalley7 Says:
Never forget: get them before they get you…
The right side. Once thought of as brave and courageous, has been turned into a small, pathetic group of bedwetters.
I’m looking at you Ace! Find your backbone, man….
July 24th, 2008 at 3:25 pmaceomalley7 Says:
I’d say I’m a realist…
And anybody with an IQ higher than a foot stool would obviously disagree with your position. Find your backbone!
Got platic sheets?
July 24th, 2008 at 3:27 pmAnd the fix is in with the Supremes…
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/03/05/scalia-tortures-bad-but-not-unconstitutional/
July 24th, 2008 at 3:29 pmGosh, I didn’t specifically intend to kill you so I’m off the hook for murder…
Aceomalley, we ARE the losers in this, at least you got that part right. I’m thinking McCain wants to actually get some info from those turrerists. He doesn’t specifically intend on causing them harm, he’s just having a flashback.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:33 pmJim Wilke Says:
I watched Letterman discuss the issue last night.
As he said, ‘We’re talking about war here, not shuffleboard.’
July 24th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
______
Exactly. Unlike shuffleboard players, prisoners of war are entitled to protection under the Geneva Conventions and the various other UN conventions prohibiting torture and mandating due process for detained persons. Shuffleboard is a game. Torture is not.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:33 pmAce – realistically, we’re screwed with this. Can you imagine if any other government in the world tried to peddle this bullshit? This isn’t realistic, this is justifying the un*ucking unjustifiable.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:35 pmJim Wilke Says:
I watched Letterman discuss the issue last night.
As he said, ‘We’re talking about war here, not shuffleboard.’
July 24th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
And so you support torture because Letterman says it is ok? Geez, you are a pussy.
July 24th, 2008 at 3:44 pmaceyducey says; get them before they get you
July 24th, 2008 at 3:45 pmI’m sure Jesus is sooooo proud in the way you practice the Golden Rule
When other countries torture our citizens, all they have to say is “We didn’t mean to hurt them,” and it will be ok.
Do I have that right? Senator McCain…?
July 24th, 2008 at 3:48 pmI really am starting to think he did tell the truth…
July 24th, 2008 at 3:50 pmPeople, for the absolutely best information on this issue, please read Jane Mayer’s new book, The Dark Side. I guarantee you, it will blow your mind (it did mine). She puts the pieces all together with all the dots connected. Please get it from your local library if you don’t want to purchase it. The Bush administration’s highest level people are absolutely guilty of war crimes. No doubt about it! What worries me the most are the Democrats helping to cover this all up, and rolling over on any attempt to make them accountable. And I AM referring to the latest defection (FISA). Before that, it was the Military Commissions act.
July 24th, 2008 at 4:08 pmNext thing you know, the CIA will start hiring cannibals. Their intent certainly isn’t “pain and sufering”.
July 24th, 2008 at 4:10 pmEvery U.S. citizen, military and civilian, who ever falls into the hands of a foreign power, can expect the same level of legality from their captors. Is ANYONE naive enough to think there are not many prisoners being held today?
Meanwhile, the President of the Sudan is laughing at the ICC because Bushco is getting away with it, and Bob Novack is driving away from a hit and run.
That’s how much the bar has been lowered. That’s the “Party of Accountability”. That’s Bush’s legacy.
July 24th, 2008 at 4:22 pmaceomalley7 Says:
Never forget: get them before they get you…
Congratulations on adopting the same mindset as bin Laden.
July 24th, 2008 at 4:49 pmIt is sad and frightening that many Republicans don’t seem to understand basic differences between right and wrong.
July 24th, 2008 at 4:55 pmFor those who haven’t seen it, there’s a very educational three hour documentary called The Power of Nightmares. Wiki has a good article here:
July 24th, 2008 at 4:59 pmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_of_nightmares
And it’s on Youtube. It will never be broadcast in this Country!
“Of course, I never intended any pain or suffering! My goal was to simply perform a science experiment, to see how human flesh would work as a conductant for a few thousand volts of electricty. Oh, and that wasn’t waterboarding! I was just washing a towel, on top of his face.” This is a nightmare.
July 24th, 2008 at 5:08 pmWe should see if a good nut crunching for all the BushitCo clan would fall under the category of torture, cause it’d be some kinda fun for me!
July 24th, 2008 at 5:16 pm>the absence of specific intent negates
wow. just wow. are these people deliberately playing stupid or did none of them actually go to law school? in the first year of law school we learned that if you undertake an act and you are “substantially certain” the given results will occur, its the equivalent of intending those results.
morons. im beginning to lose more and more faith in my profession each day…
July 24th, 2008 at 8:14 pmHistory will not be kind. Nor should it be.
July 24th, 2008 at 8:58 pmSo typical of the Bush regime. Same with warrantless wiretapping; as long as he and DOJ lawyers convinced themselves that the program was legal, then they saw no issues. Remember that the telcos cooperated with the administration because he told them that it was legal; they in turn never questioned it.
July 24th, 2008 at 9:38 pmThis means that it is possible that those accused of tourturing John McCain may possibly be innocent since we do not know the intent of their actions?
July 25th, 2008 at 1:34 amBy these standards, no prisoner anywhere in the world has been ‘tortured’ for information. If THE INTENT is to get information, then THE INTENT must not be to cause suffering. As long as you ask a question it is “for information gathering”, by this argument. In reality, this argument is no more than “the ends justify the means”. Proponents of this philosophy always use it when it is convenient. Saddam could argue that all of his activities were for a greater good. Bin Laden could also argue with this logic: the end that he seeks is the removal of all things that his belief sees as “evil”, so the means to achieve the destruction of “evil” will justify his actions. This is the argument of the weak — those who cannot choose the more difficult path of acting morally while being challenged by difficulties. Easier to say, “it will all be worth it in the end“.
To respond to #66 — By this argument, as long as McCain’s captors were seeking actionable intelligence their actions are justilfied and could not have been “torture”.
July 25th, 2008 at 8:54 am