Comments on: CIA memos say ’specific intent’ of ‘pain and suffering’ necessary for interrogations to be considered torture. http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/ Thu, 26 Nov 2009 14:45:11 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: puddin head http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-5112946 puddin head Fri, 25 Jul 2008 12:54:48 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/#comment-5112946 By these standards, no prisoner anywhere in the world has been 'tortured' for information. If THE INTENT is to get information, then THE INTENT <em>must not</em> be to cause suffering. As long as you ask a question it is "for information gathering", by this argument. In reality, this argument is no more than "the ends justify the means". Proponents of this philosophy always use it when it is convenient. Saddam could argue that all of his activities were for a greater good. Bin Laden could also argue with this logic: the end that he seeks is the removal of all things that his belief sees as "evil", so the means to achieve the destruction of "evil" will justify his actions. This is the argument of the weak -- those who cannot choose the more difficult path of acting morally while being challenged by difficulties. Easier to say, "it will all be worth it <em>in the end</em>". To respond to #66 -- By this argument, as long as McCain's captors were seeking actionable intelligence their actions are justilfied and could not have been "torture". By these standards, no prisoner anywhere in the world has been ‘tortured’ for information. If THE INTENT is to get information, then THE INTENT must not be to cause suffering. As long as you ask a question it is “for information gathering”, by this argument. In reality, this argument is no more than “the ends justify the means”. Proponents of this philosophy always use it when it is convenient. Saddam could argue that all of his activities were for a greater good. Bin Laden could also argue with this logic: the end that he seeks is the removal of all things that his belief sees as “evil”, so the means to achieve the destruction of “evil” will justify his actions. This is the argument of the weak — those who cannot choose the more difficult path of acting morally while being challenged by difficulties. Easier to say, “it will all be worth it in the end“.

To respond to #66 — By this argument, as long as McCain’s captors were seeking actionable intelligence their actions are justilfied and could not have been “torture”.

]]> By: Quizmos http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-5112838 Quizmos Fri, 25 Jul 2008 05:34:46 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/#comment-5112838 This means that it is possible that those accused of tourturing John McCain may possibly be innocent since we do not know the intent of their actions? This means that it is possible that those accused of tourturing John McCain may possibly be innocent since we do not know the intent of their actions?

]]> By: Bad Eye http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-5112462 Bad Eye Fri, 25 Jul 2008 01:38:45 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/#comment-5112462 So typical of the Bush regime. Same with warrantless wiretapping; as long as he and DOJ lawyers convinced themselves that the program was legal, then they saw no issues. Remember that the telcos cooperated with the administration because he told them that it was legal; they in turn never questioned it. So typical of the Bush regime. Same with warrantless wiretapping; as long as he and DOJ lawyers convinced themselves that the program was legal, then they saw no issues. Remember that the telcos cooperated with the administration because he told them that it was legal; they in turn never questioned it.

]]> By: Hawkeye http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-5112416 Hawkeye Fri, 25 Jul 2008 00:58:25 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/#comment-5112416 History will not be kind. Nor should it be. History will not be kind. Nor should it be.

]]> By: Chocolate Jesus http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-5112346 Chocolate Jesus Fri, 25 Jul 2008 00:14:14 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/#comment-5112346 >the absence of specific intent negates wow. just wow. are these people deliberately playing stupid or did none of them actually go to law school? in the first year of law school we learned that if you undertake an act and you are "substantially certain" the given results will occur, its the equivalent of intending those results. morons. im beginning to lose more and more faith in my profession each day... >the absence of specific intent negates

wow. just wow. are these people deliberately playing stupid or did none of them actually go to law school? in the first year of law school we learned that if you undertake an act and you are “substantially certain” the given results will occur, its the equivalent of intending those results.

morons. im beginning to lose more and more faith in my profession each day…

]]> By: RUCerious http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-5111606 RUCerious Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:16:49 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/#comment-5111606 We should see if a good nut crunching for all the BushitCo clan would fall under the category of torture, cause it'd be some kinda fun for me! We should see if a good nut crunching for all the BushitCo clan would fall under the category of torture, cause it’d be some kinda fun for me!

]]> By: nycbassist http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-5111566 nycbassist Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:08:32 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/#comment-5111566 "Of course, I never intended any pain or suffering! My goal was to simply perform a science experiment, to see how human flesh would work as a conductant for a few thousand volts of electricty. Oh, and that wasn't waterboarding! I was just washing a towel, on top of his face." This is a nightmare. “Of course, I never intended any pain or suffering! My goal was to simply perform a science experiment, to see how human flesh would work as a conductant for a few thousand volts of electricty. Oh, and that wasn’t waterboarding! I was just washing a towel, on top of his face.” This is a nightmare.

]]> By: pete http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-5111526 pete Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:59:31 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/#comment-5111526 For those who haven't seen it, there's a very educational three hour documentary called The Power of Nightmares. Wiki has a good article here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_of_nightmares And it's on Youtube. It will never be broadcast in this Country! For those who haven’t seen it, there’s a very educational three hour documentary called The Power of Nightmares. Wiki has a good article here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_of_nightmares
And it’s on Youtube. It will never be broadcast in this Country!

]]> By: VerbalKint http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-5111508 VerbalKint Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:55:57 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/#comment-5111508 It is sad and frightening that many Republicans don't seem to understand basic differences between right and wrong. It is sad and frightening that many Republicans don’t seem to understand basic differences between right and wrong.

]]> By: Luis M http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-5111484 Luis M Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:49:17 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/#comment-5111484 <em>aceomalley7 Says: Never forget: get them before they get you… </em> Congratulations on adopting the same mindset as bin Laden. aceomalley7 Says:
Never forget: get them before they get you…

Congratulations on adopting the same mindset as bin Laden.

]]> By: pete http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-5111358 pete Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:22:17 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/#comment-5111358 Every U.S. citizen, military and civilian, who ever falls into the hands of a foreign power, can expect the same level of legality from their captors. Is ANYONE naive enough to think there are not many prisoners being held today? Meanwhile, the President of the Sudan is laughing at the ICC because Bushco is getting away with it, and Bob Novack is <em>driving away</em> from a hit and run. That's how much the bar has been lowered. That's the "Party of Accountability". That's Bush's legacy. Every U.S. citizen, military and civilian, who ever falls into the hands of a foreign power, can expect the same level of legality from their captors. Is ANYONE naive enough to think there are not many prisoners being held today?

Meanwhile, the President of the Sudan is laughing at the ICC because Bushco is getting away with it, and Bob Novack is driving away from a hit and run.

That’s how much the bar has been lowered. That’s the “Party of Accountability”. That’s Bush’s legacy.

]]> By: stateofthedivision http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-5111344 stateofthedivision Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:10:55 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/#comment-5111344 Next thing you know, the CIA will start hiring cannibals. Their intent certainly isn't "pain and sufering". Next thing you know, the CIA will start hiring cannibals. Their intent certainly isn’t “pain and sufering”.

]]> By: impeachcheneythenbush http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-5111334 impeachcheneythenbush Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:08:08 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/#comment-5111334 People, for the absolutely best information on this issue, <strong>please read Jane Mayer's new book, <em>The Dark Side</em></strong>. I guarantee you, it will blow your mind (it did mine). She puts the pieces all together with all the dots connected. Please get it from your local library if you don't want to purchase it. The Bush administration's highest level people are absolutely guilty of war crimes. No doubt about it! What worries me the most are the Democrats helping to cover this all up, and rolling over on any attempt to make them accountable. And I AM referring to the latest defection (FISA). Before that, it was the Military Commissions act. People, for the absolutely best information on this issue, please read Jane Mayer’s new book, The Dark Side. I guarantee you, it will blow your mind (it did mine). She puts the pieces all together with all the dots connected. Please get it from your local library if you don’t want to purchase it. The Bush administration’s highest level people are absolutely guilty of war crimes. No doubt about it! What worries me the most are the Democrats helping to cover this all up, and rolling over on any attempt to make them accountable. And I AM referring to the latest defection (FISA). Before that, it was the Military Commissions act.

]]> By: dbadass http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-5111254 dbadass Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:50:17 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/#comment-5111254 I really am starting to think he did tell the truth... I really am starting to think he did tell the truth…

]]> By: Zooey http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-5111246 Zooey Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:48:02 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/#comment-5111246 When other countries torture our citizens, all they have to say is "We didn't mean to hurt them," and it will be ok. Do I have that right? Senator McCain...? When other countries torture our citizens, all they have to say is “We didn’t mean to hurt them,” and it will be ok.

Do I have that right? Senator McCain…?

]]> By: Uncle Ho http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-5111234 Uncle Ho Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:45:55 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/#comment-5111234 <em>aceyducey says; get them before they get you</em> I'm sure Jesus is sooooo proud in the way you practice the Golden Rule aceyducey says; get them before they get you
I’m sure Jesus is sooooo proud in the way you practice the Golden Rule

]]> By: StratRat http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-5111232 StratRat Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:44:53 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/#comment-5111232 <em>Jim Wilke Says: I watched Letterman discuss the issue last night. As he said, ‘We’re talking about war here, not shuffleboard.’ July 24th, 2008 at 3:05 pm</em> And so you support torture because Letterman says it is ok? Geez, you are a pussy. Jim Wilke Says:
I watched Letterman discuss the issue last night.
As he said, ‘We’re talking about war here, not shuffleboard.’
July 24th, 2008 at 3:05 pm

And so you support torture because Letterman says it is ok? Geez, you are a pussy.

]]> By: GeeDubs http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/comment-page-2/#comment-5111168 GeeDubs Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:35:52 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/#comment-5111168 Ace - realistically, we're screwed with this. Can you imagine if any other government in the world tried to peddle this bullshit? This isn't realistic, this is justifying the un*ucking unjustifiable. Ace – realistically, we’re screwed with this. Can you imagine if any other government in the world tried to peddle this bullshit? This isn’t realistic, this is justifying the un*ucking unjustifiable.

]]> By: hussein toasterhead http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-5111160 hussein toasterhead Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:33:58 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/#comment-5111160 <i>Jim Wilke Says: I watched Letterman discuss the issue last night. As he said, ‘We’re talking about war here, not shuffleboard.’ July 24th, 2008 at 3:05 pm</i> ______ Exactly. Unlike shuffleboard players, prisoners of war are entitled to protection under the Geneva Conventions and the various other UN conventions prohibiting torture and mandating due process for detained persons. Shuffleboard is a game. Torture is not. Jim Wilke Says:

I watched Letterman discuss the issue last night.

As he said, ‘We’re talking about war here, not shuffleboard.’

July 24th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
______

Exactly. Unlike shuffleboard players, prisoners of war are entitled to protection under the Geneva Conventions and the various other UN conventions prohibiting torture and mandating due process for detained persons. Shuffleboard is a game. Torture is not.

]]> By: GeeDubs http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-5111154 GeeDubs Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:33:15 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/24/cia-memos-say-specific-intent-of-pain-and-suffering-necessary-for-interrogations-to-be-considered-torture/#comment-5111154 Gosh, I didn't specifically intend to kill you so I'm off the hook for murder... Aceomalley, we ARE the losers in this, at least you got that part right. I'm thinking McCain wants to actually get some info from those turrerists. He doesn't specifically intend on causing them harm, he's just having a flashback. Gosh, I didn’t specifically intend to kill you so I’m off the hook for murder…

Aceomalley, we ARE the losers in this, at least you got that part right. I’m thinking McCain wants to actually get some info from those turrerists. He doesn’t specifically intend on causing them harm, he’s just having a flashback.

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