O’Reilly, Ingraham: Saying That U.S. Tortures Is ‘One Of The Most Hateful Stereotypes About America’
O’Reilly, Ingraham: Saying That U.S. Tortures Is ‘One Of The Most Hateful Stereotypes About America’
Last night on the O’Reilly Factor, host Bill O’Reilly and guest Laura Ingraham slammed Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) for declaring in Berlin yesterday that the U.S. will “reject torture and stand for the rule of law.” “Enough is enough with this torture nonsense,” O’Reilly whined, declaring it “rank anti-American propaganda” to claim the U.S. has tortured people.
Ingraham agreed, calling the claim “ridiculous.” She was furious he mentioned torture while abroad:
INGRAHAM: He got up there in front of 200,000 people and he glommed on to one of the most ridiculous and one of the hateful stereotypes about America, which is that we torture. The fact that he did that on foreign soil I think is absolutely atrocious.
O’REILLY: I pointed it out and I feel the way you do. He should absolutely not mention — that’s ridiculous.
IGRAHAM: I mean, come on! That was torture, thank you very much.
Watch it:
It is ironic that O’Reilly and Ingraham dismissed claims of torture as a “ridiculous” “stereotype” and “rank anti-American propaganda” yesterday, when just hours before broadcast, the ACLU had released yet another White House legal memo that specifically authorized torture of detainees. The 2002 memo describes a “loophole” determining that torture is only illegal if the interrogator has a “specific intent” to cause severe pain.
In fact, the memo’s author, Jay Bybee, declared that as long as an interrogator acted with a “good faith belief” that his actions would not cause torturous pain and suffering, he has not violated the law. What’s more, Bybee wrote, “an honest belief need not be reasonable.”
O’Reilly’s own views on torture notwithstanding, it’s clear that torture constituted the express policy of the Bush administration — and whether Obama discusses it or not won’t change that fact.
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Translation:
“hateful stereotype” = “inconvenient truth”
July 25th, 2008 at 11:35 amThe entire planet knows we torture, but this is news to the right side? They are a slow bunch of learners.
July 25th, 2008 at 11:38 amIt’s not a stereotype, but a consequence of specific and intentional policy by the Bush administration.
It’s evidence the world paid attention to Bush’s acts. barack’s acknowledging this view could be seen as courageous, especially in the continent that held secret CIA prisons.
July 25th, 2008 at 11:40 amO’Reilly keeps using that word “stereotype.” I do not think it means what O’Reilly thinks it means.
July 25th, 2008 at 11:41 am.
Too bad the Administration stereo-typped themselves…
.
July 25th, 2008 at 11:41 amBilldo & Lowly Larua’s ranting is the real torture to many.
Hey Billdo, just give her a call, get our the falafel & do what you do best.
Hint: It’s NOT journalism…
July 25th, 2008 at 11:41 amIMPEACHMENT HEARINGS UNDERWAY…
… SHhhhhhhh!
July 25th, 2008 at 11:42 amTell a lie, and stick to it…. tell a lie and stick to it…..
If you say it enough, it will become truth….
There really IS an easter bunny…..
July 25th, 2008 at 11:43 amstateofthedivision Says:
barack’s acknowledging this view could be seen as courageous, especially in the continent that held secret CIA prisons.
July 25th, 2008 at 11:40 am
_____
“The” continent that held secret CIA prisons? I’m pretty sure they were on more than one continent…
July 25th, 2008 at 11:44 amHay! TP, ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT HEARING’S IS ON C-SPAN..IMPEACHMENT..HOW ABOUT SOME COVERAGE HERE……BLESSINGS
July 25th, 2008 at 11:45 amINGRAHAM: “The fact that he did that on foreign soil I think is absolutely atrocious.”
And the thundering applause after Obama’s comment shows us that many around the world feel as strongly as those here do about torture. It also shows that the rest of the world isn’t buying what Bush is selling either. I’ve posted this quote several times but since it is appropriate to the thread:
“I call on all governments to join with the United States and the community of law-abiding nations in prohibiting, investigating, and prosecuting all acts of torture … and we are leading this fight by example.”
George Bush Quoted in “The Dark Art of Interrogation,” The Atlantic Monthly, October 2003
July 25th, 2008 at 11:45 amMentions of “torture” in Obama speech?
1
This is it: “Will we reject torture and stand for the rule of law?”
So when Ingraham says:
“…he glommed on to one of the most ridiculous and one of the hateful stereotypes about America, which is that we torture”
She’s lying.
As usual.
July 25th, 2008 at 11:45 amO’Reilly and Ingraham are more absurd than you claim. First they call an undeniable truth rank propaganda. Second they falsely claim that Obama uttered that truth. Obama’s statement on torture is essentially identical to statements made by uhm George Bush. Their complaint is that he used the future tense and did not assert that the US currently doesn’t torture (note he also didn’t state that we do).
This complaint was made at about the same time as the right wing complaint that Obama is acting like a President without being elected.
It would be improper for Obama to use the present tense when discussing a possible future Obama administration. Now I know that McCain has trouble with the concept of time. I forget who said that his surge caused awakening argument shows pre hoc ergo propter hoc logic and I recall the McCain campaign complaining about nit picking about exact verb tenses when he said the surge troops had been redeployed out of Iraq when in fact they were being redeployed out of Iraq). It seems to be spreading.
So what do they want ? For Obama to say what he is doing as President ? Or for Obama to be humble and talk about what he would do if he were elected ?
July 25th, 2008 at 11:45 am“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
-Joseph Goebbels-
I’m not saying… I’m just saying…
July 25th, 2008 at 11:46 amIGRAHAM: I mean, come on! That was torture, thank you very much.
Sorry, Laura, but it wasn’t even a fraternity prank.
July 25th, 2008 at 11:48 am…hateful stereotypes about America, which is that we torture. The fact that he did that on foreign soil I think is absolutely atrocious.
– - Since we torture on foreign soil, Obama was just being consistent.
July 25th, 2008 at 11:49 amStereotype?
Wow. I knew it was a truth. I didn’t know it had become a stereotype.
Bush has done more damage than we thought. We’re no longer a nation of John Waynes. We’re now stereotyped a s nation of Torquemadas.
July 25th, 2008 at 11:49 amI see facts are now “stereotypes”. Oy.
July 25th, 2008 at 11:49 amSeems the wingers wanted Obama to go abroad but to say nothing. When the U.S. government is sued for its practice of extraordinary rendition of people who turned out to have no connection to terrorism and when the U.S. government admits to using a technique on at least three prisoners which it previously prosecuted as a war crime it is not surprising that the world as a whole would be sensitive. I would also expect both candidates to assure the world that the U.S. will not use torture even if McCain waffles on whether certain methods constitute torture. Perhaps Bill-O and what’s her name are being a little sensitive. Then again, perhaps Bill-O needs something on every show to raise the decibel level enough to wake up his geriatric viewers in time for the commercials.
July 25th, 2008 at 11:51 ambut i thought they were so proud of their torture.
July 25th, 2008 at 11:51 amwhat?
no torture loving trolls
out there to defend billy
and ilsa?
*
backup?
tracy5?
pmvrk?
trajan?
and his minions?
:)
good luck.
*
July 25th, 2008 at 11:53 amThe Most Hateful Stereotypes About America….so they are admitting that it is true, that the Bush Criminal Administration does indeed “TORTURE”.
Well, these scum bags have been so proud about it in the past, why are they upset now? Is it because Obama looked very presidential over there, drawing huge crowds, and their McSame is looking that presidential and can’t fill a sausage house?
I love the smell of repuke desperation in the morning.
July 25th, 2008 at 11:56 amtheir McSame is not looking that presidential…
oppsie
July 25th, 2008 at 11:57 amUsing the word “stereotype” to complain about a black Presidential candidate? This wouldn’t be an appeal to any bigots, would it?
McCain and his “media mouthpieces” challenged Obama to prove his foreign policy bonafides and now they are panicked because Obama is doing just that. Too bad.
July 25th, 2008 at 11:57 amThey didn’t have issue with the brief comment itself — they had issue with WHO said it (Democrat, intelligent, charaismatic, well-spoken, young black man). They hate him because he embodies a large portion of their deep-seated fears (and they live on fear and hate). They NEED to discredit him, and he is not giving up any substantial fodder for their unreasoning hate, so they must create “issues” and try to spread them among the sheeple. Some great Christians: can’t see or accept any hope or brilliance that does not neatly goosestep in line with their twisted ideology.
When can we execute the traitors in our government for their unpardonable crimes against humanity and their treason against America and its principles (oh, and their callous misuse of religion, disregard for any sort of justice or law….etc ad infinitum….)????????
July 25th, 2008 at 11:59 amO’Reilly and Ingraham, bashing Obama for talking about Bush torturing people?
No one…could have…predicted…
July 25th, 2008 at 12:03 pmWaitaminnit — When BUSH says “America does not torture”, that’s OK, but when OBAMA says that the US will reject torture, he’s perpetuating a hateful stereotype? Huh? WTF?
Oh yeah, I forgot. IOKIYAR.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:09 pmI just hope they don’t kill him. That’s all.
But assassinating Obama would be so easy, and take care of every problem the GOP has. It’s in the back of every person’s mind who thinks about this Presidential race, and most folks do not want to be reminded.
Like 9-11, assassinating Obama would set a chain of events loose that would only profit the GOP and conservatives. It would be more controllable than even the aftermath of 9-11 was. A race war, riots in the streets, internment camps, suspension of the elections, President-for-the-time-being Bush, nuking Iran and any other ‘good’ targets, habeus suspended for the domestic rebellion…the upsides for the neocons and GOP haters are endless, really.
In my worthless opinion, it’s only a matter of time. And they have proven, if nothing else for the last seven years, that they are capable. Wellstone…JFK Jr…Carnahan…Bixby (CFO of Enron found ’suicided’ right after they declared bankruptcy)…
Interesting times to be alive, fer sure.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:09 pmCome on! We are in a time of war coupled with growing sentiment abroad against America and Obama goes overseas and is critical of the United States? Whether we should torture or not is beside the point. For Obama to do this is unspeakable. You can parse the words of O’Reilly and Ingraham, but what Obama said – whether it is true or not – is propaganda. Also, do any of you find it a little ridiciulous that he is going to Germany, Israel, etc. and giving “State of the World” speeches when he really has little to no experience in foreign affairs? What, exactly, is he basing his speeches on? His lacking experience or his “good” judgement?
July 25th, 2008 at 12:16 pmMcCain harangued Obama about not traveling to Iraq. Well he did and they’re still complaining. I notice though that McCain isn’t pushing to have debates every week with Obama in a town hall setting. I guess his people finally told him he is going to look like an idiot there too. Is he going to have lunch in a French bistro today ala yesterdays sausage factory jaunt. Of course the MSM is giving him credit for being “snarky”. That would be true if snary=loser.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:17 pmAt Fox News, telling the truth is considered propaganda.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:19 pmOnly to you fascists on the right.
Read the foreign newspapers. The rest of the world KNOWS we have tortured and most of us would like to get our reputation back. You people only hold allegiance to your party not your country.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:19 pmThe trolls and many others are watching the Judiciary Committee hearing. I hear throught the grapevine that there is a problem at Troll Central: Some trolls are hoping Bush will be impeached so McSame can cut himself free from that burden while others are still blindly goose stepping to the party line.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:20 pmindyjones:
July 25th, 2008 at 12:20 pmWhat do you believe are the root causes of the “growing sentiment abroad against America” that you mentioned? I assume by America you mean the US and not the rest of the Americas
unspeakable? maybe over here where people like O’reilly and Ingrahm can choose an alternate reality where anything spoken by the foul, foul ACLU is instantly dismissed.
it’s not unspeakable in the rett of the world. you either want to throw off George W.’s bubble or you don’t. I do. somebody speaking to his FAILURES and our position in the world as a result is a TONIC to a guy like me.
the world wants us to END THIS CRAP. well paid people like Bill and Laura say “WHAT CRAP?”
July 25th, 2008 at 12:21 pmsure, maybe it pays the bills but where do they get the idea that they have some high moral ground? they don’t.
And indyjones, when you’re as dumb as McCain apparently is all the experience in the world won’t help you learn to do things that are outside the realm of your intellectual abilities.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:22 pmShayne,
Get your facts straight. McCain wanted to participate in ten town hall debates with Obama before the convention and Obama agreed to only one – and to be held on Independence Day…a day which would have had low viewership given the holiday.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:22 pmindyjones Says He’s a Good Little Nazi
July 25th, 2008 at 12:22 pmindyjones Says:
Come on! We are in a time of war coupled with growing sentiment abroad against America and Obama goes overseas and is critical of the United States? Whether we should torture or not is beside the point. For Obama to do this is unspeakable. You can parse the words of O’Reilly and Ingraham, but what Obama said – whether it is true or not – is propaganda.
Unspeakable? Propaganda? To suggest that this country rejects torture and embraces the rule of law is “unspeakable”? That’s a remarkably stupid thing to write.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:22 pm“… America, which is that we torture. The fact that he did that on foreign soil I think is absolutely atrocious. …”
i KNEW that would get the fright wingers screamin’…
YOU all knew it…
BARACK OBAMA knew it… and he said it anyway… THE TRUTH… as he should.
thank you, sir.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:26 pmdbadass Says:
indyjones:
What do you believe are the root causes of the “growing sentiment abroad against America” that you mentioned? I assume by America you mean the US and not the rest of the Americas
There are many causes and I could list those, which would take the discussion in an entirely different direction and off-topic. You can try to avoid my assertion by trying to take everything back to the gaffe made in invading Iraq. And, of course I mean the U.S.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:27 pmindyjones Says:
Come on! We are in a time of war coupled with growing sentiment abroad against America and Obama goes overseas and is critical of the United States? Whether we should torture or not is beside the point. For Obama to do this is unspeakable.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
______
No, it’s not unspeakable. He spoke it yesterday. And bloviators like O’Reilly are speaking about it in shitloads today. It is in fact quite speakable.
Now, as for the anti-American sentiment that’s out there in the world, you seem to be a little confused. In my experience travelling around the world in the past few years, there isn’t a whole lot of “anti-American” sentiment out there. People around the world generally like American people, even with our weak dollar.
What they don’t like is the absolute, brutish arrogance of our foreign policy, particularly under the Bush administration. It’s our government they don’t like. Not our country.
What Obama is doing is what U.S. leaders should have been doing years ago – admitting our past mistakes and pledging to be a better global citizen.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:28 pmThey are right in one respect, America does not torture, but the Bush administration has sure as heckfire tortured. Anyone who says otherwise is ignorant of the facts.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:29 pmGummitch,
Do you think there is a country in the world, who in a time of war, does not or would not torture?
July 25th, 2008 at 12:30 pmIt’s funny that they complain about this and then refer to the speech itself as “torture”. They can bandy the word about sarcastically for any reason, but actually discussing that it’s happening is just plain wrong.
Foreign papers have been reporting on these things. People there aren’t unaware of it. Why shouldn’t it be brought up? I think, in the long run, this is the issue that’s going to be on the US’s back for decades… not the war itself.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:31 pmindyjones:
July 25th, 2008 at 12:31 pmWhy the dodge? When won makes a definitive statement, I think it is reasonable to ask for the supporting evidences/thoughts behind that statement. It is really hard to respect the words of those who can not or will not do that.
indyjones Says:
——————————————————————————–
Gummitch,
Do you think there is a country in the world, who in a time of war, does not or would not torture?
—
July 25th, 2008 at 12:33 pmWhich brings us back to the question of whether or not it works. If it does than John McCain told the truth. If it doesn’t why do it?
hussein toasterhead Says:
What they don’t like is the absolute, brutish arrogance of our foreign policy, particularly under the Bush administration. It’s our government they don’t like. Not our country.
Okay – but it all effects how we are viewed as country. This whole notion of spearating ourselves from our gov’t is dividing this country. United we stand, remember? Divided….? Look at the Sudan: we have great empathy for their people yet understand the corruption and problems that plague the gov’t. How is the Sudan viewed in the world, Toasterhead?
July 25th, 2008 at 12:35 pmindyjones Says:
Gummitch,
Do you think there is a country in the world, who in a time of war, does not or would not torture?
July 25th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
_______
As of 2004, all 136 of these countries, including us, have pledged not to in a binding convention under international law.
If any of these countries DO torture, in a time of war or otherwise, their leaders are liable to be prosecuted for war crimes.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:36 pmdbadass Says:
indyjones:
Why the dodge? When won makes a definitive statement, I think it is reasonable to ask for the supporting evidences/thoughts behind that statement. It is really hard to respect the words of those who can not or will not do that.
It is hard to respect you, dabadass, when you ask me to state the obvious and to inform you of facts you already know. I know why the United States of America is viewed negatively throughout the world and you do too. I find it to be a waste of time to write a lengthy post describe all of these to you so you can take the words to direct the dialogue away from my original claims.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:38 pmindy,
you’re all over the map.
try to stay focused.
*
take your ritalin.
:)
thank you.
@
July 25th, 2008 at 12:38 pmhussein toasterhead Says:
As of 2004, all 136 of these countries, including us, have pledged not to in a binding convention under international law.
Yeah, and Clinton and Bush both “pledged” to uphold the constitution. A pledge is a promise and promises are all too often broken.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:40 pmTo hop on the wagon:
indyjones: “we are in a time of war” — however, let us note that this is not a “US war”, as Congress never declared WAR. This is a “war” in the same ideological sense as the “war on poverty” or the “war on drugs”. Of course, it is THIS fake “war” that is killing thousands of people and destroying the American economy and way of life. In a republican business sense, where is the bottom line? Unless you are of the select few, you make nothing and lose a lot because of this “war”. You can’t even claim it upholds American honor and values, because the evaluator of those is the rest of the world — who all say (even our allies) that we have little honor or values left. We were disliked before this debacle, but with a hidden envy. Now we are just disliked (with an overt hatred).
Now, “Whether we should torture or not is beside the point” is silly. That is the whole point! But you suggest that it is irrelevant as to whether or not we DO torture, and since the situation is as you described it and the sentiment is against us on that point then we should be telling the rest of the world what they want to hear — what makes the US sound the best and most honorable and virtuous REGARDLESS OF WHETHER IT IS TRUE OR NOT (your explicit implication here) — now that is precisely what propoganda is: alter perception in a particular direction with no regard for the truth. Now, if you insist that there has been no torture…. well… I invite you to volunteer for some waterboarding. You know it’s not torture, and you even could go in to it knowing that they did not intend to kill you. SO it would be some great fun, no?
July 25th, 2008 at 12:40 pmWhy can’t these two come up with concrete arguments to defend their remarks? Oh yea, because they have no concrete arguments or facts to back themselves up….all they have is their opinion and thats not enough! But, the drones who watch this show think opinion matters more. This is why neo-conservatives are becoming less and less popular, because people like me and others have awaken to the lies that have been spoon fed to us for so long.
Never again.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:42 pmEasy there indyjones:
July 25th, 2008 at 12:42 pmHave you never engaged in dialogue in which you are asked to support your ideas or are you only used to trying to cram them down the throats of others? When we are asked to examine closer our thoughts it tends to force us to look more critically at those thoughts and often to come to higher understandings. I quess you are much for metacognition
indyjones Says:
dbadass Says:
indyjones:
Why the dodge? When won makes a definitive statement, I think it is reasonable to ask for the supporting evidences/thoughts behind that statement. It is really hard to respect the words of those who can not or will not do that.
It is hard to respect you, dabadass, when you ask me to state the obvious and to inform you of facts you already know. I know why the United States of America is viewed negatively throughout the world and you do too. I find it to be a waste of time to write a lengthy post describe all of these to you so you can take the words to direct the dialogue away from my original claims.
translation:
“i’m afraid of the truth.”
so many words
so little to say.
*
thank you.
@
July 25th, 2008 at 12:42 pmaren’t
July 25th, 2008 at 12:43 pmindyjones Says:
Okay – but it all effects how we are viewed as country. This whole notion of spearating ourselves from our gov’t is dividing this country. United we stand, remember? Divided….? Look at the Sudan: we have great empathy for their people yet understand the corruption and problems that plague the gov’t. How is the Sudan viewed in the world, Toasterhead?
July 25th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
______
The whole notion of “separating ourselves from our government” is the very basis of our constitutional democracy. Ours is a government of, by, and for the people, and when our government fails to represent the people, it is our absolute DUTY to voice our opposition, both at home and abroad.
“United we stand” is just your fascist shorthand for “shut up and don’t question authority.” The world NEEDS to see that the American people are not behind our corrupt government. The world NEEDS to see that we oppose this administration and its policies. The world NEEDS to see that we’re aware how wrong we have been in the last seven years and that we are trying to change it.
How is Sudan viewed in the world? Depends who you ask. To some people, it’s a human rights violator. To others, it’s an oil tap. To others, it’s a border violator. To others, it’s an inevitable product of colonialism.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:43 pmjoe cantwell Says:
——————————————————————————–
indy,
you’re all over the map.
try to stay focused.
*
take your ritalin.
:)
thank you.
Joe, my friend, I am hardly all over the place. If I am, please let me know how. In fact, I had to reign in a few other posters who tried to take me off topic. It was a nice try and probably fooled a few of your fellows here, but attacks based on false premises do not work. They might fool a few of the misinformed, but anyone who cares to review my posts in this thread will certainly see the err of your smear.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:43 pmindyjones Says:
Yeah, and Clinton and Bush both “pledged” to uphold the constitution. A pledge is a promise and promises are all too often broken.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
______
Thank you for your support for the impeachment of President Bush.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:44 pmindyjones Says:
joe cantwell Says:
——————————————————————————–
indy,
you’re all over the map.
try to stay focused.
*
take your ritalin.
:)
thank you.
Joe, my friend, I am hardly all over the place. If I am, please let me know how. In fact, I had to reign in a few other posters who tried to take me off topic. It was a nice try and probably fooled a few of your fellows here, but attacks based on false premises do not work. They might fool a few of the misinformed, but anyone who cares to review my posts in this thread will certainly see the err of your smear.
translation:
“my comments are entirely fact free.
no carbs, no calories.
just corn textured fecal matter from
the colon of right wing talking points.”
*
good luck.
$
July 25th, 2008 at 12:48 pmI’ll step in here,
indy, you’re beating a dead horse. Defending Billdo & lowly Laura was your first mistake; they’re indefensible.
You also lose credibility by supporting Fright Wing Whackos.
Obama said we ‘reject’ torture…what part of that don’t you understand?
You can scream, holler & spit all you want, but you’re wrong; just like your President.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:49 pmOh, I think you misread indy here, HTH.
I believe indy is saying that “it’s all good” and to be expected when presidents break their oaths of office. So he’ll have no problem if Obama decides to imprison Karl Rove as an “enemy combatant”.
Do I have that right, indy?
July 25th, 2008 at 12:50 pmdbadass Says:
Easy there indyjones:
Have you never engaged in dialogue in which you are asked to support your ideas or are you only used to trying to cram them down the throats of others? When we are asked to examine closer our thoughts it tends to force us to look more critically at those thoughts and often to come to higher understandings. I quess you are much for metacognition
Dbadass, my friend, I am certainly familiar with dialogue and will list for you – to qualm your ongoing petition for these “facts” which elude you, but which I suspect will be used by you to take the dialogue in a different direction. Prove me wrong on this. (1) invasion of iraq (2) suppoprt for Israel (3) overall use of eneregy (disproportionate to the world’s use (4) lack of support for humanitarian causes
July 25th, 2008 at 12:51 pmindy — Did you sing the “United we stand” song when Clinton was in office? Will you sing it when (yes, when) Obama is in office? Or do you mean “United we stand… in line with the neo-conservative/PNAC ideology”? You are a “with us or against us” kind of person, aren’t you? Only two sides to any issue?
July 25th, 2008 at 12:51 pmFor indyjones to use the word “gaffe” to describe the debacle in Iraq shows just how out of touch the right has become. To them torture is just something we should forget about. To them Bush/Cheney propagandizing us into an illegal pre-emptive war that has cost this nation over 4,000 people, a trillion BORROWED dollars and the unfortunate result of years of lost time and resources battling the actual terrorists in Afghanistan and along the Pakistani border is no more than a faux pas. These neocons deserve no less than the torture and death that they have wrought upon the world in the pursuit of their warped/evil ideals. They have absolutely no sense of right and wrong, no sense of responsibility for the litany of aggregious mistakes in their most unpatriotic of schemes. The neoconservative wing of the Republican Party are nothing more than a pack of bloodthirsty chickenhawks who have unfortunately held the power with the go ahead of George Bush for the last seven and a half years. Hopefully the American people and the rest of the civilized world are waking up to just what a dangerous group of un-democratic deviates are involved with the neocon movement.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:52 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
——————————————————————————–
hussein toasterhead Says:
indyjones Says:
Yeah, and Clinton and Bush both “pledged” to uphold the constitution. A pledge is a promise and promises are all too often broken.
Thank you for your support for the impeachment of President Bush.
Oh, I think you misread indy here, HTH.
I believe indy is saying that “it’s all good” and to be expected when presidents break their oaths of office. So he’ll have no problem if Obama decides to imprison Karl Rove as an “enemy combatant”.
Do I have that right, indy?
If it is proven in a court of law that Rove is guilty, then I would have no problem with it. No one, HT, is above the law? Wouldn’t you agree?
July 25th, 2008 at 12:53 pmbut attacks based on false premises do not work.
And yet you attack Obama saying he criticized America. LOL I read what Obama said and it seems to be a very diplomatic way of ensuring other countries that America will return to the standing it had before Bush screwed it all up. The world knows America is screwed. If Obama was critical, he was critical of the current admin. YOU are being led by propoganda “Obama criticizes America” said by idiots like O’Rielly.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:53 pmindyjones Says:
If it is proven in a court of law that Rove is guilty, then I would have no problem with it. No one, HT, is above the law? Wouldn’t you agree?
July 25th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
______
Thank you for supporting habeas corpus rights for detainees and “unlawful combatants.”
July 25th, 2008 at 12:54 pmindyjones Says:
dbadass Says:
Easy there indyjones:
Have you never engaged in dialogue in which you are asked to support your ideas or are you only used to trying to cram them down the throats of others? When we are asked to examine closer our thoughts it tends to force us to look more critically at those thoughts and often to come to higher understandings. I quess you are much for metacognition
Dbadass, my friend, I am certainly familiar with dialogue and will list for you – to qualm your ongoing petition for these “facts” which elude you, but which I suspect will be used by you to take the dialogue in a different direction. Prove me wrong on this. (1) invasion of iraq (2) suppoprt for Israel (3) overall use of eneregy (disproportionate to the world’s use (4) lack of support for humanitarian causes
indy,
big mac,
medium fries
and a medium coke.
*
don’t forget the napkins.
see you at the window.
%
thank you.
@
July 25th, 2008 at 12:55 pmpuddin head Says:
indy — Did you sing the “United we stand” song when Clinton was in office? Will you sing it when (yes, when) Obama is in office? Or do you mean “United we stand… in line with the neo-conservative/PNAC ideology”? You are a “with us or against us” kind of person, aren’t you? Only two sides to any issue?
Will I be happy that a Liberal is Pres shou;ld Obama win? NO. But I will not threaten to leave the country, nor will I hope that he is unsuccessful as President. I am an American First and a republican second.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:55 pmhussein toasterhead Says:
O’Reilly keeps using that word “stereotype.” I do not think it means what O’Reilly thinks it means.
and yet, stereotypes exist for a reason…
which is why it’s so easy to stereotype oLIElly as a jerk…
July 25th, 2008 at 12:56 pmindyjones Says:
Gummitch,
Do you think there is a country in the world, who in a time of war, does not or would not torture?
Absolutely. And up until Bush got into office, one of those countries was ours. In fact, we prosecuted the Japanese after WWII for this very thing and have, in the past, prosecuted our own military members.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:57 pmJoe, my friend, you do not add anything to the dialogue. You only attack people who may disagree with the positions that you fail to support. If you don’t mind, could you please refrain from posting so that those who do seek truth can have an uninterrupted dialogue? In all due respect, would you mind?
July 25th, 2008 at 12:57 pmThanks for that indyjones!
July 25th, 2008 at 12:58 pmRemember I never claimed to not have ideas of why of my own. What I asked for was your ideas. Don’t be so afraid of people asking for your opinion. I myself am careful of the use of the word “facts” as in most cases most confuse them with opinion. This may be why a concrete definition of truth is so difficult.
Gummitch,
Do you think any enemy or foreign combatants were tortured during the Clinton administration?
July 25th, 2008 at 12:59 pmWhat a spectacular misreading (or failure to comprehend) what i was saying, indy!
You saw “Karl Rove” and completely missed the “enemy combatant” part. Or the “it’s all good” part.
Have you had your morning orange juice yet, indy? It’s brain food, you know.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:01 pmdbadass Says:
Thanks for that indyjones!
Remember I never claimed to not have ideas of why of my own. What I asked for was your ideas. Don’t be so afraid of people asking for your opinion. I myself am careful of the use of the word “facts” as in most cases most confuse them with opinion. This may be why a concrete definition of truth is so difficult.
yes, but again, it’s not like these are things you did not know so I wonder why you even asked me to citew these. It only wasted my time.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:01 pmindyjones Says:
Joe, my friend, you do not add anything to the dialogue. You only attack people who may disagree with the positions that you fail to support. If you don’t mind, could you please refrain from posting so that those who do seek truth can have an uninterrupted dialogue? In all due respect, would you mind?
got an issue?
have a tissue.
:)
don’t cry indy
(my friend),
it’s beneath you.
#
good luck.
*
dialogue.
learn, do.
#
July 25th, 2008 at 1:01 pmindyjones said: “…nor will I hope that he is unsuccessful as President.I am an American First and a republican second.”
Kudos. I hope you are serious. Best wishes.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:02 pmIf it is proven in a court of law that Rove is guilty, then I would have no problem with it. No one, HT, is above the law? Wouldn’t you agree?
Your king George seems to disagree with you. How can you honor a petulant little man who thinks he is above the law? You said you were an American first, but this is not true. I still read you support and defend the criminal administration, so your words are false.
Party over country – always…..
July 25th, 2008 at 1:02 pmindyjones Says:
dbadass Says:
Thanks for that indyjones!
Remember I never claimed to not have ideas of why of my own. What I asked for was your ideas. Don’t be so afraid of people asking for your opinion. I myself am careful of the use of the word “facts” as in most cases most confuse them with opinion. This may be why a concrete definition of truth is so difficult.
yes, but again, it’s not like these are things you did not know so I wonder why you even asked me to citew these. It only wasted my time.
watch the typos.
$
July 25th, 2008 at 1:02 pmSo what do they want ? For Obama to say what he is doing as President ? Or for Obama to be humble and talk about what he would do if he were elected ?
Obviously, they want him to STFU, and preferably, to drop dead. They’ve been *very* clear about that.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:02 pmI completely disagree.
joe adds a great deal to the dialogue. His free verse illuminates things that mere prose cannot touch.
And joe does not “attack” those he disagrees with.
He makes fun of them. Big difference.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:03 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
——————————————————————————–
indyjones Says:
Oh, I think you misread indy here, HTH.
I believe indy is saying that “it’s all good” and to be expected when presidents break their oaths of office. So he’ll have no problem if Obama decides to imprison Karl Rove as an “enemy combatant”.
Do I have that right, indy?
If it is proven in a court of law that Rove is guilty, then I would have no problem with it. No one, HT, is above the law? Wouldn’t you agree?
What a spectacular misreading (or failure to comprehend) what i was saying, indy!
You saw “Karl Rove” and completely missed the “enemy combatant” part. Or the “it’s all good” part.
Have you had your morning orange juice yet, indy? It’s brain food, you know.
Ralph, paramount to all good writing is clarity. If the reader fails to understand the message or has to work that hard to decipher, the onus is on the writer.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:04 pmWhy, indy? Do you have any evidence that they were?
July 25th, 2008 at 1:04 pm“It only wasted my time.”
I don’t believe that it did. So having cited these items, what in your mind could/should be done differently by the US to alleviate these causes of anti-US sentiment overseas?
July 25th, 2008 at 1:05 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
——————————————————————————–
indyjones Says:
Joe, my friend, you do not add anything to the dialogue. You only attack people who may disagree with the positions that you fail to support.
I completely disagree.
joe adds a great deal to the dialogue. His free verse illuminates things that mere prose cannot touch.
And joe does not “attack” those he disagrees with.
He makes fun of them. Big difference.
Being quite familiar with contemporary poetry, it is not a stretch for me to say that Joe’s free verse is lacking. And, sure, he can make fun of me – that’s what you do when you can do nothing else.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:07 pmAnd joe does not “attack” those he disagrees with.
He makes fun of them. Big difference.
But the is the MO of the right side – whine, whine, whine…If you disagree – and even if the facts support your position, that is overlooked by the right side and they feel as though you are ‘attacking’ them.
The GOP has no policy to stand on, so they throw rocks and rumors around so the Low Information Voters (our indyjones) can feel superior and important. It’s their little club type approach to defending their imperial dufus.
Besides, with Bush at 27%, they will be able to hold their next meeting in a phone booth.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:08 pmThere is certainly some truth to that.
Tell me, indy, how could I have phrased “if Obama decides to imprison Karl Rove as an “enemy combatant” to clear up your conclusion that “proven in a court of law” was mentioned in my comment?
I’m trying to improve my communication skills. Thanks for your help.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:08 pmindy, please explain what Obama said that was critical of America: “Obama goes overseas and is critical of the United States?”
July 25th, 2008 at 1:09 pmPerhaps, but that’s a matter of subjective judgment, is it not? Many of my classmates got nothing from the work of e. e. cummings. Perhaps you are one of those, only with joe’s work?
Consider it.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:11 pmThis needs a repeat -
indyjones Says He’s a Good Little Fascist Nazi.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:11 pmindyjones Says
July 25th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Also, do any of you find it a little ridiciulous that he is going to Germany, Israel, etc. and giving “State of the World” speeches when he really has little to no experience in foreign affairs? What, exactly, is he basing his speeches on? His lacking experience or his “good” judgement?
___________________________________________________________
Actually, as a Senator who has served on the Senate Foreign Relations committee, he has considerably more “foreign affairs” experience than George W. Bush did at this point in 2000.
Furthermore, Obama does his homework before he opens his mouth. Which is a good thing.
In fact, because Obama seems to have managed to conduct himself in a statesmanlike manner and hasn’t given Chancellor Angela Merkel any shoulder rubs or done anything else uncouth, he actually appears more experienced than Bush is now.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:11 pmAnd, sure, he can make fun of me – that’s what you do when you can do nothing else.
But, you invite this type of response with your thoughts and words. It would be impolite of us not to provide it.
We’re just trying to help you out during this dark time in your life.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:12 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
——————————————————————————–
indyjones Says:
Ralph, paramount to all good writing is clarity. If the reader fails to understand the message or has to work that hard to decipher, the onus is on the writer.
There is certainly some truth to that.
Tell me, indy, how could I have phrased “if Obama decides to imprison Karl Rove as an “enemy combatant” to clear up your conclusion that “proven in a court of law” was mentioned in my comment?
I’m trying to improve my communication skills. Thanks for your help.
Obama would need to prove that Rove was an enemy combatant. Do the detainees at Gitmo not go on trial?
July 25th, 2008 at 1:12 pmindyjones Says:
Ralph, paramount to all good writing is clarity. If the reader fails to understand the message or has to work that hard to decipher, the onus is on the writer.
because?
you must support your thesis
with at least three convincing and
factual arguments. then sum up
with a logical conclusion.
*
this may help.
learn, do.
and watch the typos.
@
good luck.
:)
July 25th, 2008 at 1:12 pmHi TripleKick2:
I sort of think your characterization of these events is grossly exagerated but I understand that you have an agenda. Wanna discuss the pros/cons of torture?
Indyjones with all respect, I disagree that satire is what you do when you can do nothing else. Satire requires complex higher thinker skills
July 25th, 2008 at 1:12 pmWell, then you have every right not to accept it, TrickleDick.
But can you please post an excerpt of this “Anti-American torture propaganda” for us? I’m not sure what you’re speaking of. I like to judge based on facts, not people’s impressions of things.
Thanks.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:13 pmI’m very disappointed in Obama.
Ouch! Please re-consider, please. Obama doesn’t want to lose you of all people. Oh the humanity!!!
July 25th, 2008 at 1:13 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
——————————————————————————–
indyjones Says:
Being quite familiar with contemporary poetry, it is not a stretch for me to say that Joe’s free verse is lacking. And, sure, he can make fun of me – that’s what you do when you can do nothing else.
Perhaps, but that’s a matter of subjective judgment, is it not? Many of my classmates got nothing from the work of e. e. cummings. Perhaps you are one of those, only with joe’s work?
Consider it.
All art is subjective but technique is certainly open to criticism. The value of the criticism is based on the qualifications of the critic. Let me guess, those classmates of yours who took anything from cummings were Bukowski disciples who took “risks” by inconsistently omitting punctuation?
July 25th, 2008 at 1:15 pmThe US doesn’t torture? I’m currently reading a book called “Standard Operation Procedure” and there are a whole bunch of soldiers that can set O’Lielly and Ingraham straight on this matter.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:15 pmTripleidiot says:
What he should have done was come out against torture in Cuba, the Middle East, and Africa where actual torture occurs daily.
Wouldn’t that make him a hypocrite then? To accuse others of what our government does, and has admitted doing?
108 beating deaths in Afgan, Iraq, Gitmo prisons since the start of this criminal administration amounts to abit more than just 3 (or as you say 5) water tortured prisoners.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:15 pmOh? And when did that happen?
I thought that the White House was arguing that they didn’t need to go on trial. That was what we were talking about — the President’s ability to dispose of his oath of office and your support for it.
Now you’re saying that the Bush White House must offer detainees due process?
July 25th, 2008 at 1:16 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
It is wholly unacceptable for Barry Obama to be reciting Anti-American torture propaganda, especially on foreign soil. Five reported cases of waterboarding 911 mastermind KSM and friends not withstanding, there is still no evidence of wide spread torture in the US.
Translation: Eh – so we tortured a few terrorists!! What’s the big effin’ deal????
In other words, TK, if we only tortured a few people – who cares? It’s not big deal, right?
Good grief.
TK, if you don’t know what the big deal is, nobody on the friggin’ PLANET is going to be able to get it through your sadistic skull.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:17 pmtk,
you contradicted your
own argument if your
second sentence.
*
you need help too, here.
$
this song will inspire you.
*
good luck.
@
July 25th, 2008 at 1:17 pmYou guessed wrong. Should that failure damage your credibility?
July 25th, 2008 at 1:18 pmTorture is listening to Ingraham’s whiny voice.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:18 pmJoe,
In an ongoing, free-flowing chatroom, there really is no need to “watch the typos” as long as they do not confuse the message. I find that people who are unqualified to dissect language and rhetoric instead try to assert some mastery of the English language by nitpicking others on a few rules of grammar. Joe, you do not want to get into with me on grammar and punctuation. It is abattle you will lose.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:18 pmindyjones fancies himself a grammarian.
His contributions to this forum suggest otherwise.
But perhaps we should judge him by what he says, not by what he does. After all, he is a conservative.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:21 pmIt is “abattle” you will lose.
Not likely.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:22 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
It is wholly unacceptable for Barry Obama to be reciting Anti-American torture propaganda, especially on foreign soil. …Obama trashed the US, calling us torturers.
According to 3K this is propaganda and trashing the US:
July 25th, 2008 at 1:23 pmdeclaring that the U.S. will “reject torture and stand for the rule of law.”
What our idiotic friends from the Reichwing fail to note is: the World takes note of our actions and it matters little what anyone says.
And I’m really sick of the Faux morons throwing out the “anti American” crap when we are trying to fix what has gone wrong in our, once great, nation.
What’s unAmerican? Torture!
PS. To anyone who thinks it’s unacceptable to criticize Bushco’s torture policy on the international stage. I sincerely hope your Mother, Wife, or Daughter falls into “enemy hands” while Bush is still in office. Perhaps the tender mercies of their captors would provide a lesson in humanity.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:23 pmndyjones Says:
Joe,
In an ongoing, free-flowing chatroom, there really is no need to “watch the typos” as long as they do not confuse the message. I find that people who are unqualified to dissect language and rhetoric instead try to assert some mastery of the English language by nitpicking others on a few rules of grammar. Joe, you do not want to get into with me on grammar and punctuation. It is abattle you will lose.
with your help
how can i lose?
#
thank you.
:)
soar indy,
soar like you’ve never
soared before!
^
thank you.
#
July 25th, 2008 at 1:23 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
——————————————————————————–
indyjones fancies himself a grammarian.
No, I don’t – and I don’t try to assert my knoweldge of English by attacking posters for typos. On a message board, that is just petty and dumb.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:24 pmjoe cantwell Says:
ndyjones Says:
Joe,
In an ongoing, free-flowing chatroom, there really is no need to “watch the typos” as long as they do not confuse the message. I find that people who are unqualified to dissect language and rhetoric instead try to assert some mastery of the English language by nitpicking others on a few rules of grammar. Joe, you do not want to get into with me on grammar and punctuation. It is abattle you will lose.
with your help
how can i lose?
#
thank you.
:)
soar indy,
soar like you’ve never
soared before!
thank you.
Joe, my friend, with your inspriational verse as my guide, the stars are the limit …. are they not?
July 25th, 2008 at 1:25 pmindyjones Says:
Obama would need to prove that Rove was an enemy combatant. Do the detainees at Gitmo not go on trial?
July 25th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
______
They’re finally starting to, after five or six years of detention. You’d have no objection to the same treatment for Karl Rove, right?
July 25th, 2008 at 1:25 pmAccording to 3K this is propaganda and trashing the US:
declaring that the U.S. will “reject torture and stand for the rule of law.”
That’s because TripleKick 2 doesn’t reject torture and has no use for the rule of law. He is all for Bush putting through signing statements like they were notes passed to his buddy in grade 4. PNAC requires that the rule of law be changed to suit their needs.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:26 pmindyjones Says:
ralph the wonder llama Says:
——————————————————————————–
indyjones fancies himself a grammarian.
No, I don’t – and I don’t try to assert my knoweldge of English by attacking posters for typos. On a message board, that is just petty and dumb.
indy,
go ahead and
cry it out if it
makes you feel better.
*
good luck.
:)
did you enjoy the song?
#
did i attack you?
*
July 25th, 2008 at 1:27 pmTripleKick2:
July 25th, 2008 at 1:27 pmSorry I must have been unclear. I was not suggesting anything regarding the underlying premises of torture as expressed by Mr. Obama’s words. I was asking your opinion on torture. Do you think it works or not? Now it also seems to be that you are saying a little torture is cool? Is that your point? I sort of think no torture might be the way to go…
Indy sez:Being quite familiar with contemporary poetry, it is not a stretch for me to say that Joe’s free verse is lacking.
Indy also sez:
On a message board, that is just petty and dumb.
belac is confused…
July 25th, 2008 at 1:28 pmhussein toasterhead Says:
——————————————————————————–
indyjones Says:
Obama would need to prove that Rove was an enemy combatant. Do the detainees at Gitmo not go on trial?
July 25th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
______
They’re finally starting to, after five or six years of detention. You’d have no objection to the same treatment for Karl Rove, right?
This would assume I have no objection to delays in trying the detainnes at Gitmo/Guantanamo, which is false.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:28 pmNah, indy-baby, when we trash your ignorance, your bad spelling and your lousy grammar, we’re simply appealing to the HUGE inferiority complex that you should rightfully have.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:29 pmindyjones, You are a scrapper! Rock on!
July 25th, 2008 at 1:29 pmCan you provide a quote?
Thanks.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:29 pmFrom unknown Afghan woman quoted on local radio:
“When the Americans take our young men, they don’t come back”.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:29 pmjoe cantwell Says:
——————————————————————————–
indyjones Says:
ralph the wonder llama Says:
——————————————————————————–
indyjones fancies himself a grammarian.
No, I don’t – and I don’t try to assert my knoweldge of English by attacking posters for typos. On a message board, that is just petty and dumb.
indy,
go ahead and
cry it out if it
makes you feel better.
*
good luck.
:)
did you enjoy the song?
#
did i attack you?
“Attack” is too strong of a word. How about “mocked”?
July 25th, 2008 at 1:29 pm*
I don’t condone waterboarding, however there are FAR worse things happening to innocent people in Africa, the Middle East, Cuba and elsewhere, so your selective outrage at BushCo only makes you look disingenuous.
Your selective acceptance of torture only makes you look ridiculous… when did any one here say that they were okay with rape and torture as long as BushCo wasn’t doing it?
July 25th, 2008 at 1:30 pmjoe cantwell, I like your posts. Call it poetry or whatever, it’s individual and you do it well. I have only one bad thing to say to you: WHY THE HELL DID YOU PUT A LINK TO JOHN ASHCROFT SINGING!!!!!! AAAAHHHHHHHH Un hear, un hear…too late.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:30 pmTeleMan Says
July 25th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
According to 3K this is propaganda and trashing the US:
declaring that the U.S. will “reject torture and stand for the rule of law.”
____________________________________________________
Do you think that it’s the “propaganda” that’s upsetting to Trippledickle? Or is it the concept of rejecting torture and standing for the rule of law that has his panties in a wad?
July 25th, 2008 at 1:31 pmIndy, you have NO friends here.
The invasion of Iraq was a “gaffe”? STFU
July 25th, 2008 at 1:31 pm127. I think the outrage directed at Bush has something to do with him being our president.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:31 pmHi Shayne!! It’s good to see you.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:32 pmindyjones Says:
Joe, my friend, with your inspriational verse as my guide, the stars are the limit …. are they not?
good, no more crying.
let’s get on to a happier subject.
$
tk, do you agree with indy?
*
you two have a dialogue.
enjoy.
*
July 25th, 2008 at 1:32 pmSo, TK2, tell me: we’re just peachy because we only torture a little…?
OK. So according to you, if someone else tortures more, it’s ok for us to just torture a little. Am I right?
If that’s your logic, you’re the one who’s being disengenous, NOT I.
Moron.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:32 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
German’s don’t vote for our president but you can bet that the folks watching back home will indeed remember how Obama trashed the US, calling us torturers. What he should have done was come out against torture in Cuba, the Middle East, and Africa where actual torture occurs daily. I’m very disappointed in Obama.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
_______
How can Obama criticize “actual torture” that’s happening every day in Cuba, the Middle East, Africa, and other places in the world WITHOUT addressing the “actual torture” that we, the United States, have sanctioned, enabled, contracted, and conducted?
The short answer is “he can’t.” It is the pinnacle of arrogance and hypocricy to criticize another nation or even a terrorist group for engaging in the same illegal and immoral behavior that we ourselves have done.
I salute Obama’s courage and honesty in bringing this issue to the world stage. It’s about time.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:33 pm134. ditto
July 25th, 2008 at 1:33 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
TripleKick 2 Says:
dbadass
I don’t think Obama was talking about pros/cons of torture. He was simply calling America a torturing country
Can you provide a quote?
Thanks.
TripleKick and indyjones don’t seem to have an answer. It’s been asked but ignored.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:33 pmTripleKick2:
July 25th, 2008 at 1:34 pmMaybe I am misreading you but it sort of sounds like you are saying that you don’t condone torture but you don’t mind a little bit and hey look over there at places that the US government isn’t in charge of. Am I following you?
joe cantwell Says:
——————————————————————————–
indyjones Says:
Joe, my friend, with your inspriational verse as my guide, the stars are the limit …. are they not?
good, no more crying.
let’s get on to a happier subject.
$
tk, do you agree with indy?
*
you two have a dialogue.
enjoy.
*
Joe, I would like to think that, through it all, we – you, me, Shayne, et al. – have laughed a little, cried a little, and have engaged in dialgoue that has helped us move beyond our rigid idealogoies.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:35 pmConsistency is the key to being taken seriously.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:35 pmTK-
Which is EXACTLY why the US torturing ANYONE completly undermines our stand against torture anywhere… see why I’m against ALL torture but especially outraged that WE torture?
HEY! O’Whiney! You want torture? How about sticking your flag pin up the tip of your…. Never mind, you might just enjoy that…
July 25th, 2008 at 1:37 pmJoe, I would like to think that, through it all, we – you, me, Shayne, et al. – have laughed a little, cried a little, and have engaged in dialgoue that has helped us move beyond our rigid idealogoies.
So, with some dialogue and no ideaologies, let me understand how Obama criticized America.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:37 pmShayne Says:
indyjones Says:
Joe, my friend,
Indy, you have NO friends here.
The invasion of Iraq was a “gaffe”? STFU
indy says i “mocked” him.
(i disagree, he calls me “my friend”)
friends don’t mock friends.
:)
LL & prosper.
they have ashcroft,
but we have mc5!
“kick out the jams, motherf**ker!”
*
thank you.
@
July 25th, 2008 at 1:38 pm“Attack” is too strong of a word. How about “mocked”?
But a ‘mock’ in the hands of a poet is a thing of beauty…
I always think of this when I hear idiots laughing about torture or war…
July 25th, 2008 at 1:39 pmindy, indy, indy… I know it works for you to drive the discussion further and further away from its origin, but let’s keep our eye on the ball here.
You suggested with a rather cavalier air that all presidents break their oaths. You showed no concern about that circumstance.
The logical extension of that attitude is that Bush’s transgressions of Constitutional constraints (being comparable in your mind to Clinton’s) are No Big Deal. When this was suggested, you voiced no objections.
That was extended further to consider your attitude toward “enemy combatants”, using the convenient example of Karl Rove under an Obama administration. After all, if it’s cool for Bush, then it’s cool for Obama, right?
Are you following me so far?
Now you are implying that you DO in fact object to the treatment of detainees, although your use of litotes in your statement effectively distances you from an affirmative statement to that effect.
Do you understand why people are confused?
After all, the onus is on the writer to express himself clearly, right?
July 25th, 2008 at 1:39 pmJoe says:
indy says i “mocked” him.
(i disagree, he calls me “my friend”)
friends don’t mock friends.
Joe, I am sorry. I misinterpreted your intentions. Still friends?
July 25th, 2008 at 1:40 pmOf course. It doesn’t matter what they say on Faux. It matters less what kind of feces the trolls fling out there. The World knows we have grossly mistreated prisoners since the first captive. And every indignity creates more enemies.
An entire generation of Muslims will now need to be convinced that WE don’t want to wipe THEM out. The first step in that process is admitting what we’ve done. And, unlike Bushco, the rest of the World will insist that the statements match the facts.
Trust me folks. The rest of the World is not fooled in the least. And only a true 20%er is stupid enough to think the World is buying the Reichwing BS.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:40 pmWhere were the reich wing nut jobs when the SHRUB atttacked Obama from Israel and calling him an appeaser, well look who`s doing all the diplomatic talking now!The right is upest at the fact that Obama is doing what the SHRUB and his crime family refused to do, and that is to sit down and talk instead of starting a WAR that can`t be won no matter who`s president.Billo and loser Laura are trying to justify absolutely nothing…..
July 25th, 2008 at 1:41 pmTrippleTroll 2
I don’t condone waterboarding, however there are FAR worse things happening to innocent people in Africa, the Middle East, Cuba and elsewhere, so your selective outrage at BushCo only makes you look disingenuous.
I’ll cover this again for you – very slowly this time.
This entire debate about torture has always and I mean always centered on whether or not the USA is better than the ‘evil doers’ on this planet who do engage in torture. Are we a better people and government for turning away from, and prosecuting those who torture. That has been the argument – as well as the efficacy of torture – all along: Are we better than the countries we used to condemn for torture? Russia, China, Syria, Iran, etc…
So I ask you: Is the United States better than the countries we accused of being torture states, or have we merely become those very same regimes? I’ll await your answer.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:42 pmindyjones Says:
joe cantwell Says:
——————————————————————————–
indyjones Says:
Joe, my friend, with your inspriational verse as my guide, the stars are the limit …. are they not?
good, no more crying.
let’s get on to a happier subject.
$
tk, do you agree with indy?
*
you two have a dialogue.
enjoy.
*
Joe, I would like to think that, through it all, we – you, me, Shayne, et al. – have laughed a little, cried a little, and have engaged in dialgoue that has helped us move beyond our rigid idealogoies.
my “rigid idealogies”
are for chicks
not trolls.
*
you and tk are stuck
with “purity balls.”
;)
thank you.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:42 pmSimply holding enemy combatents at Gitmo doesn’t constitute torture.
The Red Cross and the rest of the world disagree with you…
…it alienates the rest of the constituency who actually love their country and who understand what real torture is and where it happens.
Torture alienates those who truly love their country from their renegade government… pointing out that it is wrong only makes the guilty or the gullible uncomfortable.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:44 pmfeed into this propaganda that America is some nasty torturing country
Those pictures from Iraq are real TripleKick 2. It’s not propaganda. America has tortured people in the last 5 years, there is NO DOUBT about it. The propaganda is that America doesn’t torture.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:46 pmRalph says:
You suggested with a rather cavalier air that all presidents break their oaths. You showed no concern about that circumstance. I am concerned but I also accept it as fact
The logical extension of that attitude is that Bush’s transgressions of Constitutional constraints (being comparable in your mind to Clinton’s) are No Big Deal. When this was suggested, you voiced no objections. What were you looking for me to say ?
That was extended further to consider your attitude toward “enemy combatants”, using the convenient example of Karl Rove under an Obama administration. After all, if it’s cool for Bush, then it’s cool for Obama, right? I already answered this
Are you following me so far?
Now you are implying that you DO in fact object to the treatment of detainees, although your use of litotes in your statement effectively distances you from an affirmative statement to that effect. Why would I not object? If they are guilty they will be rightfully detained. If they are innocent, they will go home to be with their families.
Do you understand why people are confused? NO.
After all, the onus is on the writer to express himself clearly, right? This is still true. So, where is the problem? It seems you wanted me at some point to state the obvious or to reaffirm what I had already said. Some of this stuff is common sense.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:47 pmYeah, TripleKick, We haven’t even gotten into how the U.S. has been outsourcing it’s torture. Thanks for bringing it up.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:47 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
Belac,
Show me one single story TP has featured about torture abroad, unrelated to Gitmo. Give me a break, you know exactly what I mean about selective outrage. Consistency is the key to being taken seriously.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
______
What does that have to do with anything? This blog isn’t run by Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International, it’s the Center for American Progress. This site doesn’t cover international news unless it’s related to U.S. policy.
TP doesn’t need to write about torture in Egypt or Syria or Saudi Arabia or Belarus to prove that torture is illegal. It’s just as illegal wherever it happens in the world. It’s just as much an abominaton on humanity wherever it happens in the world. Torture is just as wrong if it’s being done by a CIA contractor or an al-Qa’ida operative.
Why, then, do we or TP need to express our outrage at every incidence of torture everywhere in the world? There’s no fairness doctrine on outrage to torture. It’s understood (except by a few morons like yourself) that we oppose torture EVERYWHERE, by WHOEVER DOES IT.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:47 pmindyjones Says:
Joe says:
indy says i “mocked” him.
(i disagree, he calls me “my friend”)
friends don’t mock friends.
Joe, I am sorry. I misinterpreted your intentions. Still friends?
sure bygones are bygones.
*
friends, are you sure?
i don’t think it’s a good idea,
i think tk’s the jealous type.
*
let’s see how he reacts first.
@
good luck.
!
July 25th, 2008 at 1:47 pmHell – The US and it’s very ethical god-fearing businessmen have done much worse to many more throughout our history. Pinkertons, union-busting massacres, latin american death squads trained and equipped by the CIA, the list goes on and on.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:48 pmjoe cantwell Says:
——————————————————————————–
indyjones Says:
joe cantwell Says:
——————————————————————————–
indyjones Says:
Joe, my friend, with your inspriational verse as my guide, the stars are the limit …. are they not?
good, no more crying.
let’s get on to a happier subject.
$
tk, do you agree with indy?
*
you two have a dialogue.
enjoy.
*
Joe, I would like to think that, through it all, we – you, me, Shayne, et al. – have laughed a little, cried a little, and have engaged in dialgoue that has helped us move beyond our rigid idealogoies.
my “rigid idealogies”
are for chicks
not trolls.
*
you and tk are stuck
with “purity balls.”
;)
thank you.
You failed to answer my question: still friends?
July 25th, 2008 at 1:48 pmPage 87-88 Standard Operating Procedure
Wonder what the rest of these people in this book have to say about the fact that we don’t torture.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:48 pmMy question to you is why does the extreme leftist propaganda sound remarkably similar to the propaganda of America’s enemies?
Why did the US government use military personnel to push their view of the situation in Iraq? Sound like you have no clue as to what the word propaganda means.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:49 pmA verse for the trolls. I tend to be more lyrical than Joe.
Mix the Kool-aid
July 25th, 2008 at 1:49 pmDrink it deep
God will fix things
As you sleep
TripleKick – yes there IS selective outrage regarding the UNITED STATES torturing people. We are supposed to be a country above that sort of thing. You can talk all you want about DEGREES of torture, but they all produce the same thing…people degraded, torturers degraded, morality degraded, truth degraded, justice degraded, and our standing in the world degraded.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:50 pmI see there’s a Righty here trying to make a moral equivalency argument to excuse our leaders’ very bad choices and policies. That’s cute, and it would probably win an argument on a jr. high playground, but people who can think for themselves will invariably see it as the big honking red herring it really is.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:50 pmJoe C. you are TP’s Poet Laureate and for that we thank you.
However, how can TK and Indy have “purity balls”? Wouldn’t that require them to have “balls” in the first place. And if they had those they wouldn’t condone torture because they’re scared little wusses.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:51 pmWhat’s my issue, TK2?
My issue is apologist idiots like you, who defend torture and the Monkey King who ordered it.
Clear enough?
And I reserve my courtesy for those who deserve it.
You do not.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:51 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
What I’m saying is that its outrageous for Barry to go overseas and feed into this propaganda that America is some nasty torturing country, while at the same time not condemning countries who routinely torture all day, every day. Obama really screwed up there. This rhetoric only appeals to far left wingers like yourselves but it alienates the rest of the constituency who actually love their country and who understand what real torture is and where it happens.
It’s Barack. You’re constantly complaining about the tone around here and yet you consistently mock the presumptive Democratic candidate with your pet name.
You also, apparently, cannot read or hear. Obama said the U.S. will “reject torture and stand for the rule of law.” You accuse others here of “parsing” O’Reilly’s words and yet you are the one completely distorting what Obama said. There’s nothing “far Left” about the rule of law. It used to be that the Right supported the rule of law, but obviously this is no longer true. The real un-American stance is yours.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:52 pmp.s. Moron.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:52 pmhussein toasterhead Says
July 25th, 2008 at 1:33 pm
It is the pinnacle of arrogance and hypocricy to criticize another nation or even a terrorist group for engaging in the same illegal and immoral behavior that we ourselves have done.
________________________________________________________
So THAT’S the legacy Bushco is going for? The “pinnacle of arrogance and hypocrisy”?
July 25th, 2008 at 1:54 pmNo, indy, the point was, you never voiced concern. “reaffirm what I already said” requires that it have been said already. That never happened, until you were pushed to take a stand in favor of the rule of law.
See, the time to have said something was when I mentioned Karl Rove as an enemy combatant. Instead of saying, “I object to the administration policy on Habeas Corpus, all detainees should get prompt and fair trials, regardless of their political ideologies”, you pretended that I had said something about “proof in a court of law”. It was almost as if you assumed that detainees had the same rights that you support in Rove’s case. I didn’t say “arrested”. I said “enemy combatant” which to the Bush Administration, means pretty much anything goes.
See my point?
July 25th, 2008 at 1:54 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
The US of course has always had and will continue to have the moral high ground against terrorists and states who sponsor terrorism.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
______
There are quite a lot of people in Chile, Guatemala, Argentina, Colombia, Indonesia, El Salvador, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Angola, Rwanda, the DRC, and all the other countries where we’ve sponsored terrorism, who would disagree with this.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:54 pmYou can have any apologists you want trying to defend the indefensible, but PAYBACK for September 11 is all this amounts to. It isn’t about ‘getting information from enhanced interrogation techniques.’ It’s being cheerleaders for screwing over others for the crimes committed against us. Yes, the United States SHOULD be rejecting torture in ANY form…in ANY guise, because we are SUPPOSED to be a nation of LAWS, not MEN. But ButchCo has decided to turn that on its head and take us back before the American Revolution when the King of England decided what the laws were and what they meant. Over 225 years of experimentation are now going down the drain because of people like TripleKick and his…(dare I say it?)…ILK.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:54 pmmisshusseinmolly Says:
So THAT’S the legacy Bushco is going for? The “pinnacle of arrogance and hypocrisy”?
July 25th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
____
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED
Or, if we want to be Perinoesque revisionists:
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED BY THESE NEOCONS IN THEIR SPECIFIC MISSION TO DESTROY THE MORAL AND ECONOMIC STANDING OF THE UNITED STATES
July 25th, 2008 at 1:57 pmMy gawd, is TrickleDick still here arguing about “the hateful left” and Obama’s “Anti-American torture propaganda” with having produced a single quote to support his accusation?
Used to be trolls at least had the good sense to slink away when they had nothing. Or at least they’d try to change the subject.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:58 pmindy Says:
still friends?
will put off that subject for
another time.
*
what i don’t understand is why
tk is still here while two new posts
about michael savage and bush have
been published and he has ignored them.
*
is he fighting a losing battle?
is he stuck in a quagmire?
*
thank you.
@
July 25th, 2008 at 1:58 pmmisshusseinmolly Says:
Do you think that it’s the “propaganda” that’s upsetting to Trippledickle? Or is it the concept of rejecting torture and standing for the rule of law that has his panties in a wad?
I think it’s because McCain looks like a putz in a little German restaurant while Obama is being cheered by 200,000 Germans.
The right wingers are majorly jealous and have a case of sour grapes. Whine anyone?
July 25th, 2008 at 1:59 pmreal accountability would require real impeachment.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:59 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
livelongandprosper
You seem to have forgotten that seven people were convicted in the Abu Ghraib case and one general was demoted.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
______
Yes- seven people took the fall for a torture policy issued at the highest levels of our government. Scapegoating is not justice.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:59 pmSo, TK, I’m glad to hear that you’re all for accountability!!
So tell me ….when are we going to hold accountable THE ONES WHO ORDERED THE TORTURE, i.e., Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Rice et. al…?
July 25th, 2008 at 1:59 pmTrippleScared 2 says:
Its amazing to me that you actually question this. My question to you is why does the extreme leftist propaganda sound remarkably similar to the propaganda of America’s enemies?
Don’t try this with me, man.
Firstly, you didn’t answer the question of us beig better than those who torture. You answer was inane and incomplete.
Secondly, you do the ‘rovian’ thing by turning the question back to the questioner – rather than claim a position on the question posed to you. Can’t you take a stand on this topic?
Lastly, you again use the ‘rovian’ tactic of questioning the motivation/patriotism of the questioner instead of taking a position on the topic.
We have continually attempted to understand your position and provide evidence why we claim our position. But you have a loyalty to the criminal regime currently squatting in our WH, so it makes sense you would defend them to our brave soldiers deaths, rather than look at what is happening to your country.
I do feel sorry for your children – they deserve much better than a bedwetting coward as a parent and torture advocate.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:00 pmIn the most just of societies you can’t stop people from doing bad things, but you can hold them accountable.
LOL Like Bush has been held accountable! Just like the rest of his NeoCon buddies. You are a hypocrite. Just like Bush.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:01 pmThen why can’t we hold Bush responsible and accountable for those *ahem* few instances of torture? Oh, because he didn’t actually inflict the blows? Neither has Sudan’s President, and he’s being sought for genocide…
July 25th, 2008 at 2:01 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
hussein toasterhead
However, on a broader (and off topic) point, I would prefer that the US not get involved with any of that garbage abroad.
We agree 100% on this.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:03 pmAt least McCain knows where he’s needed.
Yeah, the cheese aisle at the supermarket. A little whine with that cheese Mr. McCain. Good stufffffffff.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:03 pmGood point. I know I always hang around for an hour or two after a free rock concert, especially if there’s a politician speaking.
Y’know, all that traffic leaving the venue and everything…
July 25th, 2008 at 2:03 pmindy,
tk is stuck in a quagmire,
fighting a losing battle.
*
good luck.
:)
July 25th, 2008 at 2:03 pmpete Says:
The World knows we have grossly mistreated prisoners since the first captive. And every indignity creates more enemies.
Hear, hear!
July 25th, 2008 at 2:04 pmPerhaps McStake should have hired an oompah band to warm up for him at the German Restaurant in Ohio. Perhaps he could have reached the fire marshal’s capacity limits for the space.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:05 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
Its not always cut and dry.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
______
True. It’s not always cut and dry. The line between “good guys” and “bad guys” is usually quite blurry.
However, in cases where the CIA overthrows a democratically-elected government and touches off a 40-year civil war in order to protect the profits of United Fruit, or where we pressure a government to displace 200,000 people so we can flood a valley, build a dam, and make a profit for Bechtel, it is pretty cut and dry. And there are quite a lot of those cases in the second half of the 20th century.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:05 pmThere is no effing “moral high ground” when innocent civillians are reduced to collateral damage. The U.S. military has killed/maimed more innocent civilians in 6 years than the all members in good standing of the U.N. combined for the previous twenty.
Bushco, largely by creating the disaster in Iraq and by arming all sides in Iraq’s civil conflict, has made US the leading “exporter of terror”. How many of the foreign fighters flooding Afghanistan are carrying guns the U.S. military “lost” in Iraq? How many of the “Iranian” EFDs are packed with American C4. How many people have been killed by the weapons WE GAVE TO OUR ENEMIES?
And I haven’t seen a “far left” in this country since 1969.
Anyone who thinks they are protecting the “moral high ground” from the “far left” is so delusional that it’s pointless to argue.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:05 pmGood point. I know I always hang around for an hour or two after a free rock concert, especially if there’s a politician speaking.
Y’know, all that traffic leaving the venue and everything…
Touche…Game, set, and match. Time to rebrand yourself Mr. TrippleScared 2. Who can guess what his next moniker will be?
July 25th, 2008 at 2:05 pmAnd stop trying to change the subject. Obama drew the crowds, the rock concerts were gravy. You’re grasping at staws (and straw men) and it’s getting very pathetic.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:05 pmHowever, on a broader (and off topic) point, I would prefer that the US not get involved with any of that garbage abroad.
Nice. Let’s just write off the rest of the world.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:07 pmDid you know that there were two free rock concerts held before Obama spoke? Hmm your media failed to report that one eh?
The headliner always goes on last… and if people are only there to hear the bands they generally leave after they play… McCain’s problem is that he won’t let anyone but the Big Bopper and Buddy Holly open for him and no one has the heart to tell him that you don’t ALWAYS walk away from plane crashes…
July 25th, 2008 at 2:07 pmindy,
tk writes,
“If you have an actual case against GW for torture, go for it.”
i guess he is giving up.
*
are you surprised?
i am.
*
July 25th, 2008 at 2:09 pmindyjones Says:
——————————————————————————–
Gummitch,
Do you think there is a country in the world, who in a time of war, does not or would not torture?
First of all, we are not in a war. The war was won years ago. We are in an occupation.
Second, just because our enemy may torture doesn’t make it OK if we do. Doesn’t it bother you that by Bush’s action, any US soldier serving today can expect to be tortured if captured and we won’t be able to protest that action?
July 25th, 2008 at 2:10 pmI was going to say, ‘Then perhaps we should waterboard YOU, TrippleAss,’ but since every elected government in our country prior to this has said it was an illegal, TORTUROUS act, I wouldn’t even want that to happen to you…even if the CIA said it WAS legal.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:10 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
TeleMan thinks 200,000 germans cheered Obama.
Did you know that there were two free rock concerts held before Obama spoke? Hmm your media failed to report that one eh?
At least McCain knows where he’s needed.
I bet the photo here makes you cry. Because none of those people left after the “free rock concerts”, did they? You’re a total eejit if you’re trying to claim they didn’t come there to hear Obama. McCain couldn’t pull 200,000 without a Beatles reunion.
Was McCain “needed” in Colombia?
July 25th, 2008 at 2:11 pmMore TrippleScared 2 words….Blah, Blah, Blah….On and on with the nonsense and obfuscation.
Geez…How out of it does a person have to be to wave off fact after fact after fact? Then to top it all off, instead of defending his idiot king, he again just spews crap at Kucenich and George Tenent. Blah, Blah, Blah…..
BTW TrippleBedWetter 2, impeachment would tell the planet that we understand how to operate and comport ourselves as a mature and adult nation – as opposed to the frat house hijinks carried on by the squatter in the WH. It wold be very helpful, but not for you – so you claim it is useless.
Blah, Blah, Blah……
July 25th, 2008 at 2:11 pmDid you guys catch that? Our pet troll/harpy has convinced itself that the crowd wasn’t cheering Sen. Obama, despite the video, because there was entertainment!
100% delusional. Get the padded cell ready. This one is bound to end up naked and confused in a shopping mall looking for it’s “blanky”.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:12 pm#TripleKick 2 Says:
Honestly,
If you have an actual case against GW for torture, go for it.
Hey troll, we don’t have proof of any of the crimes that GW has committed. And it’s not because he hasn’t done the deed, it is because we can’t get anyone to testify due to Bush declaring EP for anyone who ever came close to working for him.
But, the truth is going to come out after Obama is elected and it’s not going to be pretty. The people who are too scared to tell the truth now will feel confident to tell the truth once Bush is gone.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:12 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
At least McCain knows where he’s needed.
Now that’s funny. McCain knows where he’s needed and it apparently isn’t in the Senate since he hasn’t shown his face there since early April.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:14 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
Joe cantwell
I’m not here to defend GW Bush in any way. Just so you know, that’s not where I’m coming from on this Obama/Torture thing.
tk,
it’s not where you coming from,
it’s where you going to.
we all know that.
*
good luck.
!
July 25th, 2008 at 2:15 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
Honestly,
Besides, its very unclear whether or not waterboarding was actually illegal at the time it was used. I understand the US military thought it was illegal when Japanese soldiers did it to our guys, however the CIA’s rules were ambiguous at best.
Ever notice that when someone starts out by saying “honestly”, they usually proceed to lie.
The Japanese soldiers who waterboarded Americans were EXECUTED FOR TORTURE! What is unclear or ambiguous about that?
July 25th, 2008 at 2:15 pmMeanwhile. The President of the Sudan is indicted for genocide by the ICC. His response is to laugh at the charges because the ICC isn’t going after Bushco.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:17 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
Bilbo,
Actually its congress who would be in charge of that, not Obama if he’s elected president. Given that liberal dems control congress for nearly two years, it seems they aren’t able to get the job done.
Two words: special prosecutor. It’s the executive branch that will be responsible for investigating the crimes of this administration. Congress has that role only when the issue is impeachment, and the Bushies will be out of office. No impeachment necessary.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:23 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
Joe cantwell
I’m not here to defend GW Bush in any way.
Then stop defending GW Bush in every way.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:23 pmTripleKick 2 Says
Consistency is the key to being taken seriously.
shoeless Says:
The Japanese soldiers who waterboarded Americans were EXECUTED FOR TORTURE! What is unclear or ambiguous about that?
pete Says:
Meanwhile. The President of the Sudan is indicted for genocide by the ICC. His response is to laugh at the charges because the ICC isn’t going after Bushco.
TripleKick 2 Says
Consistency is the key to being taken seriously.
You’re right TK… we need to be consistent, so no more okaying torture for any reason, okay?
July 25th, 2008 at 2:24 pmIt is clear from all the posts that TripleKick and Indy are not true Americans or believers in the Constitution and the Rule of Law. They are supporting the destruction of both and don’t care, it is ALWAYS Party before Country.
I would love to see them squawk if their precious 2nd Amendment was stripped away like BushCo did to the Right of Privacy, Habeas Corpus and war profiteering by favored companies.
It is only wrong if a Dem does it.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:26 pmIts not as if the Democrats ever had their own plan to deal with the war on terror.
Let’s look at Bush’s plan: Osama bin Ladin, mastermind of 911, is at large. The country he hid in is going back towards Taliban chaos. Bush goes into Iraq – no connection to 911 – no WMD. Disbands the Iraq Army creating thousands on new terrorists.
Yeah, maybe you should shut up about what a democrate President would do about the “war on terror”.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:26 pmNo more torture, TK.
Not even if Jack Bauer is POSITIVE he can find the bomb before the last episode if he beats it out of the Royal Shakespeare Company member playing the ‘brown terrorist’ this week…
July 25th, 2008 at 2:27 pmLogic exercise.
The eastbound train, full of Bush appointees, is scheduled to leave the station at 2:23.
The westbound train, full of trolls and harpies, is scheduled to leave at 2:34.
Flip-flop McSpin, while buzzing the station to impress the common folk, crashes into the station. The nuke he’s carrying goes off.
Question: Are any animals, of above average human intelligence, killed?
July 25th, 2008 at 2:28 pmIt seems that the government corrected itself yes?
TK… it is not simply enough to stop doing something illegal and immoral if you are a government agent. Authorizing illegal acts should be punished with at least losing your government job, yes?
July 25th, 2008 at 2:30 pmTK, you’ve had some lame posts this morning, but this one takes the cake as a lazy right-wing fabrication with no tether to reality.
It’s so fu(king stupid when wingnuts say “the Democrats have no plan to deal with terrorism”. It’s a flat lie. Democrats for years have been backing the law-enforcement path to combatting terrorism while the Right bear-hugs the military approach, which only serves to validate the terrorists’ efforts.
Every victory over terrorism in the last decade has come from law enforcement — the Millenium bomber. Richard Reid. The plot thwarted in Britain. The Lackawana cell. And every prominent terrorism expert (outside of BushCo, that is) acknowledges that the most effective way to combat terrorism is by stepping up law enforcement measures. Invading other nations is a sure way to fuel it.
Yet Kerry was ridiculed by the Foxperts on the Right in ‘04, who were just jonesing to see Dumbya in his codpiece again.
That IS a plan, bonehead. You only reveal your ignorance (not that it was much of a secret) when you claim otherwise.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:32 pmAfter all, the Japanese Government corrected itself and agreed to stop waterboarding Americans- that’s what that signing ceremony on the boat was about… why the war crimes trials then?
July 25th, 2008 at 2:32 pmI still wanna know if torture works. What do you think TripleKick2?
July 25th, 2008 at 2:33 pmMeanwhile. Bob Novack drives away from a hit and run, with injuries, with a $50.00 ticket. BTW, has he managed to get that ticket fixed yet? It wouldn’t look good if a man of his standing were forced to submit to a common fine.
NOTE: Don’t walk around Washington till the neocons are banished from the beltway.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:34 pmI’m gonna go out on a limb here and say, “no need”.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:34 pmI may support that yes. I’m no fool. I do realize that governments can and will become corrupt and require constant oversight from their bosses: we the people.
However, again I think the villain here is George Tenet
Great! Let’s have a trial… an open and honest airing of who knew what, when they knew it and who okay’d it.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:36 pmYou wanna start with Tenet- I approve… I’m not sure you’ll be happy with where that trial leads, though…
TripleKick 2 Says:
I guess after Bush beats back all the terrorists and makes it safe for you to come out from under the rocks, then you can criticize his methods.
Invading Iraq = Beat back all the terrorist?
All Bush has done is legitimize Al Qaeda, terrorize the middle east and help recruiting for new extremists!
Its not as if the Democrats ever had their own plan to deal with the war on terror.
Clinton caught, tried and jailed the first twin tower bombers. Where’s Osama?
Clinton and Richard Clarke passed on a plan to handle terrorists to Bush when he came in. Clarke, and the terrorist threat, were completely ignored by the Bush Admin until 9-11.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:41 pmSo the poster who is now famous for saying, “Consistency is the key to being taken seriously.” claims that “torture can work, yes” but he doubts that “the information gotten from torture is credible”.
Strange.
What does torture “work” for, then? Getting your rocks off at the thought of brown people suffering?
July 25th, 2008 at 2:42 pmTripleKick:
1. George Bush is a war criminal and deserves to be tried, convicted and executed. Only others who are criminals, like yourself, attempt to defend waterboarding and other such tactics as something other than the war crime that it is. Indeed, it is not US law that has been violated. It is international law. The Japanese who were executed for waterboarding did not violate any statute. They committed a crime mala in se. Just as the US officer utilizing waterboarding during the suppresion of the Phillipine insurrection.
2. Let me spell it out for you: THERE ARE JUST SOME THINGS WHICH HAVE BEEN ACCEPTED ACROSS THE WORLD AS BEING SO WRONG, SO EVIL THAT THEY ARE UNIVERSALLY CONDEMNED AS CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.Water boarding is one such act and those who have argued for its legality in the past were condemned by international tribunals as international criminals. Indeed, the recognition that such people are nothing more than evil was the basis of the Nuremburg trials. You have now proven yourself to be on the level of Hitler, Mussolini and such others.
3. A simple response to your statement:
I am sorry, but I am a man. You are nothing but a little, wet diapered sisssy. I did not hide under a rock nor did others who had any real courage. No, the ones who wetted their panties and showed themselves to be true cowards are the ones who thought like you. There were never any hordes of terrorists ready to strike and bring the US to its knees. Only a little faggot like bush would think so. We would have been struck repeatedly in the days immediately after 9/11 had this been such a strong, well endowed and potent enemy. Do project your impotence and performance failures to other US citizens. Many of us have backbone, something you are sorely lacking.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:43 pmTriplekick,
Why should my comment bother you? I think most constitutional scholars would agree that if you don’t support the Constitution and the Rule of Law and support War-profiteering (Treason), covering up illegal wiretaps, sending American troops into Harms way under false pretenses (treason), holding foreign citizens for over 6 years with no designation as POW or charging them with any crime (illegal impresionment).
I don’t need to call you a Nazi, just un American.
And, why didn’t you respond to my comment about the 2nd Amendment? A little too close to home?
July 25th, 2008 at 2:46 pmYou just lost me.
You’ve been lost for a long time.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:48 pmBin Laden was also tried in absentia, during the Clinton administration, for his role in the 98 attacks. Why has he not been tried for 9/11? Would not “shoot to kill” rewards be more legitimate if he were convicted of the crime?
It makes one wonder. Can Bushco build a case that would stand up in a court of law?
July 25th, 2008 at 2:49 pmLet me help you. Torture likely does work if the goal is intimidation, suppression of dissent or pure sadistic enjoyment. However no I don’t think that confessions or information gotten from torture should be considered credible. Does that clear it up?
Which of those describes why the US tortures?
And how does that fit with this statement…
TK sez:
the closest Gitmo has come to torture was allegedly waterboarding *5* of the worst terrorists we’ve captured, including one who claims to have been the 911 mastermind and who personally cut the head off Daniel Pearl and killed dozens of people. I am not excusing waterboarding him but I don’t feel sorry for him either.
why waterboard if the information we’d recieve would be tainted?
July 25th, 2008 at 2:49 pmDone. Those responsible are rotting in prison.
I wasn’t aware that we had law enforcement jurisdiction in these locations.
You might recall that, in 1998 Clinton had credible information on the whereabouts of bin Laden, the man behind the attacks you cite. He launched cruise missiles intended to “punish” bin Laden. Reportedly, he missed his target by mere hours.
The stateside response? Republicans roundly condemned his action, screeching “Wag the dog! Wag the dog!”
False. Clinton got confirmation in December that Al Qeada was behind the attack. Rather than take action in the last month of his presidency, he handed it off to the incoming president, who did nothing. At all.
Got any more? Perhaps you’d like to offer evidence about how the invasion of Iraq has diminished terrorist activity across the globe? I’m sure the patrons of the London underground would be grateful to hear it, as would train riders in Madrid.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:50 pmRemeber Tk…
Consistency is the key to being taken seriously
July 25th, 2008 at 2:51 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
I’m no fool.
People who are not fools seldom feel the need to make this claim.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:51 pmralph the wonder llama:
What you fail to grasp is that TripleKick2 is simply invoking the McCain clause of the torture conundrum. “It can work but not if it is our guy thing.” In fairness to TripleKick2,this is the closest we have come to an answer as too just how they can play both sides of the torture coin.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:51 pmThanks for your honesty. I agree with that.
Unfortunately, I suspect a lot of torture apologists agree with it as well. Says a lot.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:52 pmremove the “thing”
July 25th, 2008 at 2:52 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
Let me help you. Torture likely does work if the goal is intimidation, suppression of dissent or pure sadistic enjoyment. However no I don’t think that confessions or information gotten from torture should be considered credible. Does that clear it up?
I see. So it’s okay if we just torture a little since we’re not looking for reliable information. We just want to intimidate and suppress dissent for our pure sadistic enjoyment. Yup. That sounds like Bushco.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:53 pmVoters won’t like that.
Who cares what you 25 percenters like? You have shown yourselves to be greedy untruthful bastards.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:54 pmPLEASE EXPLAIN WHAT OBAMA SAID TO LEAD YOU TO CONCLUDE THAT OBAMA ELUDED (sic) THAT THE US DOES INDEED TORTURE.
PLEASE CITE THE PASSAGE FROM HIS SPEECH.
How difficult is this?
July 25th, 2008 at 2:54 pmIt becomes more clear, with every post, that our pet troll likes physical cruelty. Just so long as it doesn’t need to risk it’s precious self.
Though I daresay it would enjoy watching it’s master, the Chimp, branding young boy-flesh. It would get off on the whole sight, sound, and smell of the experience. But…
Faced with the awesome presence of it’s master, would it drop trou and submit?
July 25th, 2008 at 2:55 pmThe US doesn’t torture as policy.
I hear that over and over but then I hear about more torture and how it’s ‘unfortunate but needed…’
July 25th, 2008 at 2:56 pmThat’s like pointing to the No Smoking sign in your office and saying, ’see, it’s policy’ with a lit cigar hanging from your mouth… ‘oh, this!?! It’s unfortunate but needed… and besides- I don’t see you getting this upset about all the people smoking in other offices!’
belac:
“why waterboard if the information we’d recieve would be tainted?”
I am gonna have to go with TripleKick2’s pure sadistic enjoyment option
July 25th, 2008 at 2:58 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
I’m not here to defend GW Bush in any way.
…its very unclear whether or not waterboarding was actually illegal at the time it was used. I understand the US military thought it was illegal when Japanese soldiers did it to our guys…
However, again I think the villain here is George Tenet.
Consistency is the key to being taken seriously.
Honestly,
I’m no fool.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:59 pmBack to “It’s Clinton’s fault”. Hell let’s just go with “Reagan brought down the USSR.”
July 25th, 2008 at 3:03 pmLet me ask you, TrickleDick… how much lead time do you think Bush needed before he was fully ready to deal with an attack? Obviously nine months wasn’t enough, right? Would an entire year have been enough time for Bush to get his sh!t together so he could stop a terrorist attack?
How about if he’d had more than a month advance warning? Would it have helped if he’d gotten the PDB titled “Bin Laden determined to Strike in US” in July instead of August?
I’m just trying to get a gauge of how much of a grace period you give to new administrations before you’ll hold them accountable.
If we’re attacked in August of next year, that will clearly be Bush’s fault, right? How about October? Are we getting into a gray area there?
July 25th, 2008 at 3:04 pmNo less bloodthirsty a man than George S. Patton was asked about getting information from prisoners.
“Hell! There’s no reason to rough ‘em up. If you give them a hot meal? They’ll give you Hitler’s address. If you give them a beer? They’ll introduce you to their sister”.
George S. Patton, N Africa, 1943
July 25th, 2008 at 3:04 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
Honestly,
The US doesn’t torture…
I’m no fool.
July 25th, 2008 at 3:05 pmUpon hearing of abuses in German POW camps, Gen Patton said;
“I’ll gut every one of the Nazi bastards with my bare hands”.
George S. Patton, France 1944
July 25th, 2008 at 3:09 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
The US doesn’t torture as policy.
Yes, but there’s is a difference between Practice and Policy… and while I support the policy, I’d be happier if the US didn’t torture in Practice… I think alot of voters would agree with me.
July 25th, 2008 at 3:09 pmUpon seeing a British soldier aim a kick at a German prisoner Gen Patton said;
“Arrest that (bleep) or I’ll shoot him where he stands”!
George S. Patton, France, 1944
July 25th, 2008 at 3:12 pmPerhaps the Reichwingers of today would consider Gen. George S. Patton a lefty? A traitor? Anti-American? A “phony soldier”?
If FDR’s government had treated prisoners in the manner of Bushco? Ol’ Blood-n-guts would swim to the U.S. and strangled the lot of them.
July 25th, 2008 at 3:16 pmTriplekick,
We have asked you repeatedly here to give us the place where Obama “was reckless and foolish to feed anti-american torture propaganda in Germany”.
Please quote it from his speech and explain how it fits your description.
July 25th, 2008 at 3:19 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
Barry made a strategic blunder by stoking anti US sentiment…
Did you hear those 200,000 Germans cheering “Yes we can”?
Such anti US sentiment.
July 25th, 2008 at 3:20 pmOnce again, HOW DID HE DO THIS?
WHAT DID HE SAY TO THIS EFFECT?
CAN YOU POST A TRANSCRIPT?
Thanks.
July 25th, 2008 at 3:21 pmTripleKick2:
In ligtht of these words:
“Only the far left extreme communities would not think that Barry made a strategic blunder by stoking anti US sentiment at the expense of alienating US voters.”
Might you provide some links to any recognized party/pundit which lacks a right agenda who has made this claim? Thanks!
July 25th, 2008 at 3:22 pmTK, you haven’t given me a time frame for new administrations.
How long did Bush need to bring his anti-terror tactics up to speed?
Thanks.
July 25th, 2008 at 3:22 pm“Far left extreme communities”? “Stoking anti US sentiment”?
HAhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
In Germany? The country which has been apologizing for the holocaust for 60 years? A nation who’s children regularly use three languages? Does the Reichwing really think it can BS the Germans?
Pure delusion!
July 25th, 2008 at 3:23 pmGuys, we can (and have) beaten TrickiePrick right into the ground with facts and logic.
Obviously, since FickleDick continues to argue with made up crap, Snopes fodder and erroneous BS, this is a complete waste of time.
There’s no convincing the leghumpers and apologists for torture.
July 25th, 2008 at 3:23 pmI can post a transcript – here ya go, PickleDick, point out to us where Obama utters all this anti-Amurkin sedition:
“A World That Stands as One”
As Prepared For Delivery
Berlin, Germany
July 24th, 2008
Thank you to the citizens of Berlin and to the people of Germany. Let me thank Chancellor Merkel and Foreign Minister Steinmeier for welcoming me earlier today. Thank you Mayor Wowereit, the Berlin Senate, the police, and most of all thank you for this welcome.
I come to Berlin as so many of my countrymen have come before. Tonight, I speak to you not as a candidate for President, but as a citizen – a proud citizen of the United States, and a fellow citizen of the world.
I know that I don’t look like the Americans who’ve previously spoken in this great city. The journey that led me here is improbable. My mother was born in the heartland of America, but my father grew up herding goats in Kenya. His father – my grandfather – was a cook, a domestic servant to the British.
At the height of the Cold War, my father decided, like so many others in the forgotten corners of the world, that his yearning – his dream – required the freedom and opportunity promised by the West. And so he wrote letter after letter to universities all across America until somebody, somewhere answered his prayer for a better life.
That is why I’m here. And you are here because you too know that yearning. This city, of all cities, knows the dream of freedom. And you know that the only reason we stand here tonight is because men and women from both of our nations came together to work, and struggle, and sacrifice for that better life.
Ours is a partnership that truly began sixty years ago this summer, on the day when the first American plane touched down at Templehof.
On that day, much of this continent still lay in ruin. The rubble of this city had yet to be built into a wall. The Soviet shadow had swept across Eastern Europe, while in the West, America, Britain, and France took stock of their losses, and pondered how the world might be remade.
This is where the two sides met. And on the twenty-fourth of June, 1948, the Communists chose to blockade the western part of the city. They cut off food and supplies to more than two million Germans in an effort to extinguish the last flame of freedom in Berlin.
The size of our forces was no match for the much larger Soviet Army. And yet retreat would have allowed Communism to march across Europe. Where the last war had ended, another World War could have easily begun. All that stood in the way was Berlin.
And that’s when the airlift began – when the largest and most unlikely rescue in history brought food and hope to the people of this city.
The odds were stacked against success. In the winter, a heavy fog filled the sky above, and many planes were forced to turn back without dropping off the needed supplies. The streets where we stand were filled with hungry families who had no comfort from the cold.
But in the darkest hours, the people of Berlin kept the flame of hope burning. The people of Berlin refused to give up. And on one fall day, hundreds of thousands of Berliners came here, to the Tiergarten, and heard the city’s mayor implore the world not to give up on freedom. “There is only one possibility,” he said. “For us to stand together united until this battle is won…The people of Berlin have spoken. We have done our duty, and we will keep on doing our duty. People of the world: now do your duty…People of the world, look at Berlin!”
People of the world – look at Berlin!
Look at Berlin, where Germans and Americans learned to work together and trust each other less than three years after facing each other on the field of battle.
Look at Berlin, where the determination of a people met the generosity of the Marshall Plan and created a German miracle; where a victory over tyranny gave rise to NATO, the greatest alliance ever formed to defend our common security.
Look at Berlin, where the bullet holes in the buildings and the somber stones and pillars near the Brandenburg Gate insist that we never forget our common humanity.
People of the world – look at Berlin, where a wall came down, a continent came together, and history proved that there is no challenge too great for a world that stands as one.
Sixty years after the airlift, we are called upon again. History has led us to a new crossroad, with new promise and new peril. When you, the German people, tore down that wall – a wall that divided East and West; freedom and tyranny; fear and hope – walls came tumbling down around the world. From Kiev to Cape Town, prison camps were closed, and the doors of democracy were opened. Markets opened too, and the spread of information and technology reduced barriers to opportunity and prosperity. While the 20th century taught us that we share a common destiny, the 21st has revealed a world more intertwined than at any time in human history.
The fall of the Berlin Wall brought new hope. But that very closeness has given rise to new dangers – dangers that cannot be contained within the borders of a country or by the distance of an ocean.
The terrorists of September 11th plotted in Hamburg and trained in Kandahar and Karachi before killing thousands from all over the globe on American soil.
As we speak, cars in Boston and factories in Beijing are melting the ice caps in the Arctic, shrinking coastlines in the Atlantic, and bringing drought to farms from Kansas to Kenya.
Poorly secured nuclear material in the former Soviet Union, or secrets from a scientist in Pakistan could help build a bomb that detonates in Paris. The poppies in Afghanistan become the heroin in Berlin. The poverty and violence in Somalia breeds the terror of tomorrow. The genocide in Darfur shames the conscience of us all.
In this new world, such dangerous currents have swept along faster than our efforts to contain them. That is why we cannot afford to be divided. No one nation, no matter how large or powerful, can defeat such challenges alone. None of us can deny these threats, or escape responsibility in meeting them. Yet, in the absence of Soviet tanks and a terrible wall, it has become easy to forget this truth. And if we’re honest with each other, we know that sometimes, on both sides of the Atlantic, we have drifted apart, and forgotten our shared destiny.
In Europe, the view that America is part of what has gone wrong in our world, rather than a force to help make it right, has become all too common. In America, there are voices that deride and deny the importance of Europe’s role in our security and our future. Both views miss the truth – that Europeans today are bearing new burdens and taking more responsibility in critical parts of the world; and that just as American bases built in the last century still help to defend the security of this continent, so does our country still sacrifice greatly for freedom around the globe.
Yes, there have been differences between America and Europe. No doubt, there will be differences in the future. But the burdens of global citizenship continue to bind us together. A change of leadership in Washington will not lift this burden. In this new century, Americans and Europeans alike will be required to do more – not less. Partnership and cooperation among nations is not a choice; it is the one way, the only way, to protect our common security and advance our common humanity.
That is why the greatest danger of all is to allow new walls to divide us from one another. The walls between old allies on either side of the Atlantic cannot stand. The walls between the countries with the most and those with the least cannot stand. The walls between races and tribes; natives and immigrants; Christian and Muslim and Jew cannot stand. These now are the walls we must tear down.
We know they have fallen before. After centuries of strife, the people of Europe have formed a Union of promise and prosperity. Here, at the base of a column built to mark victory in war, we meet in the center of a Europe at peace. Not only have walls come down in Berlin, but they have come down in Belfast, where Protestant and Catholic found a way to live together; in the Balkans, where our Atlantic alliance ended wars and brought savage war criminals to justice; and in South Africa, where the struggle of a courageous people defeated apartheid.
So history reminds us that walls can be torn down. But the task is never easy. True partnership and true progress requires constant work and sustained sacrifice. They require sharing the burdens of development and diplomacy; of progress and peace. They require allies who will listen to each other, learn from each other and, most of all, trust each other.
That is why America cannot turn inward. That is why Europe cannot turn inward. America has no better partner than Europe. Now is the time to build new bridges across the globe as strong as the one that bound us across the Atlantic. Now is the time to join together, through constant cooperation, strong institutions, shared sacrifice, and a global commitment to progress, to meet the challenges of the 21st century. It was this spirit that led airlift planes to appear in the sky above our heads, and people to assemble where we stand today. And this is the moment when our nations – and all nations – must summon that spirit anew.
This is the moment when we must defeat terror and dry up the well of extremism that supports it. This threat is real and we cannot shrink from our responsibility to combat it. If we could create NATO to face down the Soviet Union, we can join in a new and global partnership to dismantle the networks that have struck in Madrid and Amman; in London and Bali; in Washington and New York. If we could win a battle of ideas against the communists, we can stand with the vast majority of Muslims who reject the extremism that leads to hate instead of hope.
This is the moment when we must renew our resolve to rout the terrorists who threaten our security in Afghanistan, and the traffickers who sell drugs on your streets. No one welcomes war. I recognize the enormous difficulties in Afghanistan. But my country and yours have a stake in seeing that NATO’s first mission beyond Europe’s borders is a success. For the people of Afghanistan, and for our shared security, the work must be done. America cannot do this alone. The Afghan people need our troops and your troops; our support and your support to defeat the Taliban and al Qaeda, to develop their economy, and to help them rebuild their nation. We have too much at stake to turn back now.
This is the moment when we must renew the goal of a world without nuclear weapons. The two superpowers that faced each other across the wall of this city came too close too often to destroying all we have built and all that we love. With that wall gone, we need not stand idly by and watch the further spread of the deadly atom. It is time to secure all loose nuclear materials; to stop the spread of nuclear weapons; and to reduce the arsenals from another era. This is the moment to begin the work of seeking the peace of a world without nuclear weapons.
This is the moment when every nation in Europe must have the chance to choose its own tomorrow free from the shadows of yesterday. In this century, we need a strong European Union that deepens the security and prosperity of this continent, while extending a hand abroad. In this century – in this city of all cities – we must reject the Cold War mind-set of the past, and resolve to work with Russia when we can, to stand up for our values when we must, and to seek a partnership that extends across this entire continent.
This is the moment when we must build on the wealth that open markets have created, and share its benefits more equitably. Trade has been a cornerstone of our growth and global development. But we will not be able to sustain this growth if it favors the few, and not the many. Together, we must forge trade that truly rewards the work that creates wealth, with meaningful protections for our people and our planet. This is the moment for trade that is free and fair for all.
This is the moment we must help answer the call for a new dawn in the Middle East. My country must stand with yours and with Europe in sending a direct message to Iran that it must abandon its nuclear ambitions. We must support the Lebanese who have marched and bled for democracy, and the Israelis and Palestinians who seek a secure and lasting peace. And despite past differences, this is the moment when the world should support the millions of Iraqis who seek to rebuild their lives, even as we pass responsibility to the Iraqi government and finally bring this war to a close.
This is the moment when we must come together to save this planet. Let us resolve that we will not leave our children a world where the oceans rise and famine spreads and terrible storms devastate our lands. Let us resolve that all nations – including my own – will act with the same seriousness of purpose as has your nation, and reduce the carbon we send into our atmosphere. This is the moment to give our children back their future. This is the moment to stand as one.
And this is the moment when we must give hope to those left behind in a globalized world. We must remember that the Cold War born in this city was not a battle for land or treasure. Sixty years ago, the planes that flew over Berlin did not drop bombs; instead they delivered food, and coal, and candy to grateful children. And in that show of solidarity, those pilots won more than a military victory. They won hearts and minds; love and loyalty and trust – not just from the people in this city, but from all those who heard the story of what they did here.
Now the world will watch and remember what we do here – what we do with this moment. Will we extend our hand to the people in the forgotten corners of this world who yearn for lives marked by dignity and opportunity; by security and justice? Will we lift the child in Bangladesh from poverty, shelter the refugee in Chad, and banish the scourge of AIDS in our time?
Will we stand for the human rights of the dissident in Burma, the blogger in Iran, or the voter in Zimbabwe? Will we give meaning to the words “never again” in Darfur?
Will we acknowledge that there is no more powerful example than the one each of our nations projects to the world? Will we reject torture and stand for the rule of law? Will we welcome immigrants from different lands, and shun discrimination against those who don’t look like us or worship like we do, and keep the promise of equality and opportunity for all of our people?
People of Berlin – people of the world – this is our moment. This is our time.
I know my country has not perfected itself. At times, we’ve struggled to keep the promise of liberty and equality for all of our people. We’ve made our share of mistakes, and there are times when our actions around the world have not lived up to our best intentions.
But I also know how much I love America. I know that for more than two centuries, we have strived – at great cost and great sacrifice – to form a more perfect union; to seek, with other nations, a more hopeful world. Our allegiance has never been to any particular tribe or kingdom – indeed, every language is spoken in our country; every culture has left its imprint on ours; every point of view is expressed in our public squares. What has always united us – what has always driven our people; what drew my father to America’s shores – is a set of ideals that speak to aspirations shared by all people: that we can live free from fear and free from want; that we can speak our minds and assemble with whomever we choose and worship as we please.
These are the aspirations that joined the fates of all nations in this city. These aspirations are bigger than anything that drives us apart. It is because of these aspirations that the airlift began. It is because of these aspirations that all free people – everywhere – became citizens of Berlin. It is in pursuit of these aspirations that a new generation – our generation – must make our mark on the world.
People of Berlin – and people of the world – the scale of our challenge is great. The road ahead will be long. But I come before you to say that we are heirs to a struggle for freedom. We are a people of improbable hope. With an eye toward the future, with resolve in our hearts, let us remember this history, and answer our destiny, and remake the world once again.
July 25th, 2008 at 3:25 pmTripleKick, why do you hate the people of Germany?
July 25th, 2008 at 3:26 pmWe’ll wait.
Moron.
July 25th, 2008 at 3:26 pmTK, it’s just a thought, but since you brought up the subject — perhaps “consistency” includes consistently addressing serious questions posed to you, rather than simply picking and choosing the ones you’re happy to deal with.
Make sense?
July 25th, 2008 at 3:26 pmAnnie — tell me it’s not true…
that gooey puddle on the floor over there…
that’s not…
it can’t be…
TrickleDick, is it?
say it’s not, Annie! Please say it’s not TrickleDick!!!
July 25th, 2008 at 3:28 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
TK, it’s just a thought, but since you brought up the subject — perhaps “consistency” includes consistently addressing serious questions posed to you, rather than simply picking and choosing the ones you’re happy to deal with.
TripleKick Says:
I’m no fool.
July 25th, 2008 at 3:30 pmThanx Annie. That should keep Tribbleprick busy for a couple days. It will take at least a day just to banish preconceptions. I mean, he’s going to make sure he reads and comprehends every sentence before he jumps to any conclusions. Right?
July 25th, 2008 at 3:34 pmSomeone who intends to vote for McSpin using words like “consistency”?
Priceless!
July 25th, 2008 at 3:36 pmI was reading on another site, and those people are having a discussion about Obama being the Anti-Christ.
Oh. My. God.
July 25th, 2008 at 3:39 pmOr maybe his speech was anti American after it was translated? That must be what our resident troll is talking about.
They must have used al-Maliki’s official translator and he told Germany they should Hate us for our Freedom! That dastardly translator wants Europe to Hate America!
July 25th, 2008 at 3:40 pmI told you, LickieDick, you idiotic assw*pe, I reserve courtesy for those who deserve it.
YOU do NOT deserve it.
Any questions?
Moron.
July 25th, 2008 at 3:41 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
Bilbo,
Actually its congress who would be in charge of that, not Obama if he’s elected president. Given that liberal dems control congress for nearly two years, it seems they aren’t able to get the job done.
Obama will appoint an Attorney General who is not a partisan hack and that Attorney General will investigate the Bush Crime Family. I’m betting that people will be lining up asking to testify against the Crime Family once they know that Bush can’t have them fired or even killed for testifying against the “family”.
The Democrats have “controlled” Congress for almost two years, but due to the obstructionist Republicans who never met a filibuster they didn’t love, they have not been able to get much accomplished. That problem will go away with the new Congress when the Democrats have a larger majority and when many Republicans realize what their fate will be in the next election if they continue to obstruct Congress. The Republicans in Congress have filibustered more bills thus far in the 110th Congress than they have in the history of Congress. Since the year is not over, I’m sure they will continue to add to that statistic.
July 25th, 2008 at 3:44 pmTrip,
If you are voting for Barr, why are you so down on Obama? Any vote leakage will come over from McDepends, not from Obama’s side.
This couldn’t be a smokescreen, could it?
July 25th, 2008 at 3:44 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
None of you can prove the US tortures,
Caution! These pictures are not for the faint of heart or Republicans
July 25th, 2008 at 3:44 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
Leftside Annie
People who can’t debate or form a thoughtful opinion generally get frustrated and lash out with juvinile curse words and name calling. This essentially sums up 95% of the TP community.
Unlike the whiners like you. The Republicons are becoming such whiners. It’s really kind of funny, they are so jealous their eyes are all green with envy. And how they deal with their jealousy is to whine, whine, whine.
Too bad so sad. Your day is done and on November 3, 2008 the Republicons will wake up to their permanent minority status. Some Republicons heads will explode, which can only be seen as an added bonus.
July 25th, 2008 at 3:46 pmOh, thank god! TricklyDick isn’t a puddle on the floor.
Now, let me see if I’ve got this straight:
TricklyDick makes repeated claims along teh lines of “Obama was reckless and foolish to feed anti-american torture propaganda in Germany.”
he has repeatedly, by multiple posters, to provide some form of transcript of Obama’s remarks that would support his claim.
he fails to do so, or even acknowledge the requests.
leftside Annie pastes the entire transcript of Obama’s speech.
And yet TK says of Annie: “You never saw a fact that you didn’t run away from.”
Have I about got that right? Because it doesn’t seem to add up.
July 25th, 2008 at 3:48 pmWaterboarding is not the same as a daily beating or watching your wife be raped.
…its very unclear whether or not waterboarding was actually illegal at the time it was used. I understand the US military thought it was illegal when Japanese soldiers did it to our guys…
The US doesn’t torture as policy.
The CIA can no longer waterboard. It seems that the government corrected itself yes?
I am not excusing waterboarding him but I don’t feel sorry for him either.
However no I don’t think that confessions or information gotten from torture should be considered credible.
Triple, you’re on a roll…
July 25th, 2008 at 3:49 pmBilbo, be fair; Republicans don’t love filibusters when they’re in the majority. I think they call those filibusters “anti-American”.
July 25th, 2008 at 3:50 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
Please provide this “trashing” that you feel was done.
July 25th, 2008 at 3:50 pmdbadass Says:
TripleKick2:
In ligtht of these words:
“Only the far left extreme communities would not think that Barry made a strategic blunder by stoking anti US sentiment at the expense of alienating US voters.”
Might you provide some links to any recognized party/pundit which lacks a right agenda who has made this claim? Thanks!
It won’t be able to meet that challenge. Any American with an IQ out of the room temperature range (I suspect that’s TK’s problem, a room temperature IQ) knows that we have tortured people. They also know what that has done to our reputation in the international community. The only people who are going to by the BS that TK is selling are people in his group, the low-information voters who get all their “news” from Fox and a few right wing websites.
Their day is done and they are starting to see it. That’s why they are whining so much.
July 25th, 2008 at 3:53 pmWe don’t need to, individually, prove the U.S. tortures. Bushco has already admitted it. Remember the infamous “three, specific, instances” admitted in front of Congressional Committee? Remember the Yoo letters? Remember the Friday meeting where Bush “signed off” on enhanced interrogation? And on, and on…
The authoritarian mindset just doesn’t allow reality to penetrate their consciousness. Or conscience, for that matter.
They are utterly incapable of the realization that Uncle Sugar is in the wrong. And what’s worst? Bushco has admitted their crimes and refused to hold ANYONE accountable. Until We the People do that? There will be no shortage of,righteously, pissed off people who will be willing to do it for us.
Has it not occurred to Bushco that they will be susceptible to all the horrors of the new paradigm they created?
Much like they have condemned current and future U.S. citizens to the same “lawful” treatment they have inflicted on others, current and future U.S. leaders will be susceptible to assassination and regime change.
And that is why previous, sane, Presidents have not engaged in the overt overthrow of foreign governments. Do Reichwingers really think it can’t, now, happen here?
July 25th, 2008 at 3:53 pm(sigh) we’re not gonna get any sense out of you, are we, TK?
One more time: how did Senator Obama “trash his country in Germany”?
And please, be specific.
Thanks.
July 25th, 2008 at 3:53 pmRalphie, he’s askeered of me – because I’m a mean old LIBERAL woman.
He’d rather chastise me for being all unladylike and stuff than address the facts I’ve repeatedly posted.
Poor little StickiePrick. Did your mother drop you on your head when you were a baby?
July 25th, 2008 at 3:54 pmJebus, you are stupid, aren’t you, OneTrickie?
I’m so very sorry for your parents.
July 25th, 2008 at 3:57 pmIf Barr won’t win, then I’d rather have a proven man with a great personal story rather than an empty suit Barry who trashed his country in Germany.
Ok, that makes a lot of sense, you are going to vote for Barr but if he can’t win then you want McCain to win. Pretty much proves my point about this idiot troll’s IQ.
Don’t you just love people who admire people with a great personal story that includes being fifth from the bottom of his class, crashes 5 planes, gets taken as a prisoner of war, abandons his crippled wife who waited for him while he was a POW for a rich Stepford wife. Yes, that’s certainly someone who should be admired by people with IQ’s in the room temperature range.
July 25th, 2008 at 3:57 pmLeftside Annie Says:
Guys, we can (and have) beaten TrickiePrick right into the ground with facts and logic.
Obviously, since FickleDick continues to argue with made up crap, Snopes fodder and erroneous BS, this is a complete waste of time.
There’s no convincing the leghumpers and apologists for torture.
Ha! FickleDick. I like that one. Chalk one up for Leftside Annie. And you are so right, there’s no convincing them.
July 25th, 2008 at 3:57 pmYou like dealing with congressional approval ratings, huh?
The text of Obama’s speech? Not so much.
And the amount of time Bush needed to prepare for a terrorist attack, not at all.
Remember, TK, “Consistency is the key to being taken seriously.™”
July 25th, 2008 at 3:58 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
Bilbo,
I’d take McCain’s story of heroism and bravery under capture and torture over Obama’s empty resume any day.
But you feel Barr’s story is even better than McCain’s?
Yea, right! Your true colors have now come out, quit pretending to be a non-Johnny Boy licker, OK? We’ll still love you!
July 25th, 2008 at 4:04 pmChimpy’s legacy will include:
The right of a government to bomb residential areas in an attempt to kill suspected criminals.
The right of a government to use white phosphorous on cities.
The right of a foreign government to topple another regime for making inflammatory remarks.
The right of a government to invade a sovereign nation which can’t provide proof of a negative (which is logically impossible).
The right of a government to kidnap and imprison foreign nationals based on the unsubstantiated tips of paid informants.
The right of a government to ignore inconvenient portions of international accords.
Crap! I could go on for days. But those are some of the big ones that Bushco has opened up. It will take many generations to undo the damage, if it ever becomes possible.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:04 pmShoeless,
Thank you for sharing the link to the pictures. I don’t see a good majority of this as torture in the historical sense. It is certainly demoralizing and just stupid, but, on the other hand, I do not feel one bit sorry for the detainees. Remember that a good number of the susepcted terrorists would have no problem kneeling you down in fron of a camera and cutting your head off with a knife in brutal fashion. I won’t post the link here but if you do a google search I am sure you would be able to find some of the videos of American’s being decapitated.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:05 pmtk,
still stuck in the quagmire?
*
July 25th, 2008 at 4:06 pmYou think TP is bad now, TK, wait for the meltdown after the November elections!
July 25th, 2008 at 4:06 pmI think TK should be applauded. After all, his reluctance to provide facts or deal with pointed questions, and his willingness to spew unsupported claims about Obama have played major roles in pushing this thread above 300 posts.
Well done, TK. Mission Accomplished™!
Now, about those transcripts…
No?
How about the Bush terrorism thing?
No?
Well, at least you’re consistent in ignoring or avoiding questions for which you have no answer. So you’ve got that going for you.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:07 pmindyjones Says:
And what proof do you have that all the people in those pictures are “terrorists”?
Even our own government say over half of them are innocent and were ’sold’ to us because there was a bounty.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:08 pmAnd your proof of this is…?
Testimony from court proceedings?
Eyewitness accounts?
Oh, it comes from your own twisted prejudices! Okay, that makes sense now.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:10 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
That should speak volumes to you about how effective your congress is. Then again a 17% approval rating may be still too high.
Wow, I didn’t know that the congress was now 100% Democrats. When did that happen. This brain dead troll thinks that the 17% approval rating only applies to Democrats. When the fact is that when you break Congress down to Democrats and Republicons, the Democrats score MUCH higher than the Republicons. The public is mad at congress because the Republicons filibuster and obstruct and because the Democrats don’t stand up to them. If the Democrats were to start playing hardball with the Republicons, Congress’ approval ratings would skyrocket.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:12 pmThose waskily republican in the minority are somehow able to render your democrat congress impotent.
D’s have a slight majority. The obstructionist Republicans are doing everything they can to stop progress by requiring a filibuster proof 60% passage.
And, yes, it doesn’t help that many of the D’s are spineless wimps.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:12 pmRalph, Are you suggesting that they are innocent until proven guilty? And that, no matter, what is at stake, we should treat them with dignity and respect?
July 25th, 2008 at 4:12 pmDo people really need to be reminded that we DO condemn torture? Do people need to be reminded that Cuba has been under sanctions since 1961?
Do people need to be reminded about “cloture votes”? Do people need to be reminded that Sen. Cornyn (r) Tex. has, single handily, effectively blocked over forty pieces of legislation? Do people need to be reminded that EVERY SINGLE REPUBLICRIMINAL, and their little dog Lieberman, has voted lock-step against virtually every piece of legislation sponsored by a Dem?
Nope. People don’t. Only trolls.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:13 pmBilbo, if I may… I’ve been working with TK for a while now, so I think I have a handle on how he thinks.
See, when he says , “your congress” he’s not saying it’s all Democrat; he’s saying that he’s not an American.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:14 pmRadical lefty concepts, I know, indy. but what can you do? That’s the legacy our Founders left us with.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:15 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
Bilbo,
I’d take McCain’s story of heroism and bravery under capture and torture over Obama’s empty resume any day.
Go figure. There is nothing “heroic” or “brave” about surviving being held captive for 5 years. It’s simply a fact. And if you chose to admire someone who treats women the way McCain does, I feel very sorry for any women in your life. But, listening to you talk here, I suspect no woman would give you the time of day.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:15 pmindyjones Says:
Ralph, Are you suggesting that they are innocent until proven guilty? And that, no matter, what is at stake, we should treat them with dignity and respect?
Yes. Absolutely.
Any questions?
July 25th, 2008 at 4:16 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
Leftside Annie
People who can’t debate or form a thoughtful opinion generally get frustrated and lash out with juvinile curse words and name calling. This essentially sums up 95% of the TP community.
I was waiting for this. Is this why you keep referring to Obama as “Barry”? Because you’re so mature?
July 25th, 2008 at 4:16 pmPerhaps you ought to clean the sh*t out of your ears, Trickie.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:18 pmindyjones Says:
Ralph, Are you suggesting that they are innocent until proven guilty? And that, no matter, what is at stake, we should treat them with dignity and respect?
Ok, I have a question for you. Your brother is in Iraq. He is captured by the insurgents. Now, would you like him to be considered innocent until proven guilty and would you want him to be treated with dignity and respect? Or would you rather the insurgents immediately start torturing him?
July 25th, 2008 at 4:18 pmindyjones Says:
Ralph, Are you suggesting that they are innocent until proven guilty? And that, no matter, what is at stake, we should treat them with dignity and respect?
Wboa… I’m speechless.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:19 pmIndy actually gets the point… well done Indy! You’re growing and learning to be an American at long last!
Hey, Trickie, you do know that your hero, Johnny McBush, sold out America for medical treatment, right?
July 25th, 2008 at 4:21 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
gummitch,
Barry is his name. Barry Hussein Obama. Get over it.
He used to go by Barry up until a few years back when he wanted to sound more statesmanlike, however I think “Barry” its a perfect tribute to his lack of experience in general.
No moron, his name is Barack Hussein Obama. Barry was his nickname until he graduated from College. That was quite a few years ago. But, then, with your IQ one can understand why you can’t differentiate between a given name and a nick name and between “a few years back” and 20 years ago when he came out of college.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:21 pmFair enough, TK, What words did “Barry” (real mature, by the way, but then gummitch already pointed that out) use that you heard as “trashing the US”?
If you are so certain, it shouldn’t be much of a stretch to explain to us what you heard and why you heard it that way, right? I mean, jeez, Annie’s already poste the whole text of the speech. Just copy-and-paste the really offending parts.
Deal?
July 25th, 2008 at 4:23 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
Barry’s comments speak for themselves. You can watch his speech with your lovesick eyes and hear what you want. I listened and I clearly heard him feed the anti-american torture propaganda.
If that’s the case, then you should be able to tell us what was anti-american about his speech. Annie very kindly provided the speech for you, so read it and post here what was anti-american in the speech. Or is your IQ too low to allow you to do that kind of critical thinking? Because up until now you have shown zero critical thinking skills. You can take a class at your local JC to help you with it if you care.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:23 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
——————————————————————————–
ralph
Barry’s comments speak for themselves. You can watch his speech with your lovesick eyes and hear what you want. I listened and I clearly heard him feed the anti-american torture propaganda. I thought Barry would be smarter than that, but I guess he’s really not about change afterall. He’s about appeasing the liberal left who pulls his strings. Change indeed. Wasn’t it John Kerry who loved the idea of warming up to Europe? Wasn’t it he who wanted to have a “global test” on whether America can defend herself? Yea, that kind of thinking obviously didn’t sit too well with the voters. Barry should have been smarter not to follow in Kerry’s footsteps.
John Kerry reporting for duty….but all joking aside: I think barack is going to have a heck of time this fall. If he were a white candidate (and this is not a racial slam), he would have a much easier time connecting to a good number of voters. I am not sure America is ready to vote in a black president or a woman president. Again, I don’t agree with a voter who votes based on the color or gender of a candidate. But, with these obtsacles facing barry, coupled with a need to “connect” with mainstream America, it’s going to be a tough road with little room for error. It’ll be interesting to see how it plays out, but it has to be very discouraging to the Obama camp to be in such a tight race right now against a campaign that is poorly run and a candidate who has yet to inspire his base.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:25 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
gummitch,
Barry is his name. Barry Hussein Obama. Get over it.
He used to go by Barry up until a few years back when he wanted to sound more statesmanlike, however I think “Barry” its a perfect tribute to his lack of experience in general.
I’m sorry, but I didn’t realize you two were old friends. And you have some proof about this, right? Because otherwise it just looks like you’re being (hmmm, how did you put that?) juvenile.
And “lack of experience” probably means that he wasn’t really president of Harvard Law Review, a lecturer in Constitutional Law at University of Chicago Law School, a state senator and then a US Senator. Not to mention all the other work done along the way in community organizing.
No, you’re going with “experience”. Bob Barr, who served eight years in the House. Whew. What a guy!
July 25th, 2008 at 4:25 pmindyjones…are you going to answer the question I posed to you in my post 337? What’s the matter, cat got your tongue, or is it that you can’t answer the question without looking like the low-life that you are?
July 25th, 2008 at 4:25 pmBarry should have been smarter not to follow in Kerry’s footsteps.
Your desperation is valid. You’re going to lose anyway, so if this little bit of fiction makes the impending loss less psychologically damaging for you, embrace it with both arms!
July 25th, 2008 at 4:25 pmindyjones Says:
I do not feel one bit sorry for the detainees. Remember that a good number of the susepcted terrorists
Suspected is far different than convicted. (After five years, how many have we convicted?) None of those people in the photographs have been convicted on anything. Is this how the US should treat people?
Just like our killing innocent civilians while bombing of suspected terrorists only serves to create more terrorists.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:26 pmAND, you still haven’t provided us with the quote from Obama’s speech where he recited the anti-american torture propaganda.
Bilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
——————————————————————————–
indyjones Says:
Ralph, Are you suggesting that they are innocent until proven guilty? And that, no matter, what is at stake, we should treat them with dignity and respect?
Ok, I have a question for you. Your brother is in Iraq. He is captured by the insurgents. Now, would you like him to be considered innocent until proven guilty and would you want him to be treated with dignity and respect? Or would you rather the insurgents immediately start torturing him?
Do you think insurgents adhere to international law?
July 25th, 2008 at 4:27 pmindyjones Says:
It’ll be interesting to see how it plays out, but it has to be very discouraging to the Obama camp to be in such a tight race right now against a campaign that is poorly run and a candidate who has yet to inspire his base.
“Tight”? Keep in mind that the president is selected by the Electoral College and pay attention to this. 292 to 195 is not “tight.”
July 25th, 2008 at 4:28 pmindyjones Says:
I am not sure America is ready to vote in a black president or a woman president.
America will prove you wrong. Then you will come back here and acknowledge the fact that you were wrong. America is so fed up with the crimes committed by the right, they will be more than happy to vote for a black man, even if they are prejudiced. I happen to know a couple like that. They are total bigots, but they are going to vote for Obama anyway. They are doing it because they know that this country can’t survive another 4 years of Republicon rule.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:28 pmDo you think insurgents adhere to international law?
Do you think that the United States should?
July 25th, 2008 at 4:29 pm(I know you’re new at this patriotism thing so I’ll help… the correct answer begins with ‘Y’ and ends with ‘es’)
——————————————————————————–
TeleMan Says:
——————————————————————————–
indyjones Says:
I do not feel one bit sorry for the detainees. Remember that a good number of the susepcted terrorists
Suspected is far different than convicted. (After five years, how many have we convicted?) None of those people in the photographs have been convicted on anything. Is this how the US should treat people?
Just like our killing innocent civilians while bombing of suspected terrorists only serves to create more terrorists.
AND, you still haven’t provided us with the quote from Obama’s speech where he recited the anti-american torture propaganda.
You must mean someone else
July 25th, 2008 at 4:29 pmindyjones Says:
Do you think insurgents adhere to international law?
Do you think insurgents are effected by the treatment of other insurgents?
July 25th, 2008 at 4:29 pmindyjones Says:
Bilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
Ok, I have a question for you. Your brother is in Iraq. He is captured by the insurgents. Now, would you like him to be considered innocent until proven guilty and would you want him to be treated with dignity and respect? Or would you rather the insurgents immediately start torturing him?
Do you think insurgents adhere to international law?
That was not my question. My question was, would you want your brother to be considered innocent until proven guilty and would you want him to be treated with dignity and respect. That sounds like a pretty easy question to me. Why are you having such a tough time answering it.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:30 pmBilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
indyjones Says:
I am not sure America is ready to vote in a black president or a woman president.
America will prove you wrong. Then you will come back here and acknowledge the fact that you were wrong. America is so fed up with the crimes committed by the right, they will be more than happy to vote for a black man, even if they are prejudiced. I happen to know a couple like that. They are total bigots, but they are going to vote for Obama anyway. They are doing it because they know that this country can’t survive another 4 years of Republicon rule.
Well, I most certainly do not want to see BO win, but I do hope I am wrong about voter sentiment toward blacks and women. I suspect, however, that November will prove me right.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:31 pmindyjones Says:
Do you think insurgents adhere to international law?
Are you suggesting that we let the insurgents set the terms and dictate our behavior?
July 25th, 2008 at 4:33 pmIsn’t that playing right into their hands?
Are you suggesting that the United States should explain it’s torturing of ’suspected terrorists’ with the age old line, ‘Everyone was doing it.’
Did your mom let you get away with that?
Didn’t think so…
Bilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
——————————————————————————–
indyjones Says:
Bilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
Ok, I have a question for you. Your brother is in Iraq. He is captured by the insurgents. Now, would you like him to be considered innocent until proven guilty and would you want him to be treated with dignity and respect? Or would you rather the insurgents immediately start torturing him?
Do you think insurgents adhere to international law?
That was not my question. My question was, would you want your brother to be considered innocent until proven guilty and would you want him to be treated with dignity and respect. That sounds like a pretty easy question to me. Why are you having such a tough time answering it.
This is a dumb question. You figure out the answer. If my brother, however, places himself ina bad position, say, like, attacking inncoent civilians overseas through terrorist attacks or joins a terrorist network, I would think that he made some poor choices.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:33 pmindyjones Says:
Well, I most certainly do not want to see BO win, but I do hope I am wrong about voter sentiment toward blacks and women. I suspect, however, that November will prove me right.
We are all allowed our little fantasies.
Now, answer the simple question I asked you.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:33 pmDo you think the standards that our nation adheres to and projects to the world should be determined by how insurgents act?
July 25th, 2008 at 4:35 pmWow…
Talk about yer primo Whack-a-Troll™ territory…
An’ I hafta go back ta work…
Dang!!!!!!
Save a couple a big, fat, juicy ones fer me, boys!
July 25th, 2008 at 4:35 pmDo you think insurgents adhere to international law?
Of course they don’t, sweetheart.
That’s why we call them “terrorists,” after all, right?
If terrorists don’t adhere to international law, and WE don’t adhere to international law, what does that make US…?
That makes US terrorists too, doesn’t it…?
Or is that concept too much for you to understand?
July 25th, 2008 at 4:36 pmJeezus, indy, take a fu(king stand.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:36 pmindyjones Says:
This is a dumb question. You figure out the answer. If my brother, however, places himself ina bad position, say, like, attacking inncoent civilians overseas through terrorist attacks or joins a terrorist network, I would think that he made some poor choices.
Our government has admitted that more than 50% of the people they are holding at Guantanamo were not captured by us but were sold to our government. What if your brother was one of those people. Would you think it’s OK that we torture him because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time? Would you think is is OK that we hold him indefinitely and not even give him the chance to prove his innocence.
I doubt that you can answer this question any more than you could answer the last question because you are lacking in humanity. May god have mercy on your soul and on those who are forced to be in your presence.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:37 pmOh, now, Ralph, don’t *curse* at the poor little troll!!
They’re sensitive that way, you know.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:38 pmSuppose your brother drove a cab to make ends meet, and one night he asked his neighbor to turn down his music. The next morning, the neighbor points out your brother to the police, they arrest him on “information” that he’s a terrorist.
The occupying force takes him away to a part of the world he’s never heard of.
NOW would you want that occupying force to presume him innocent until proven guilty? Or would you just chalk it up to the “bad decision” of asking his neighbor to turn down hi music?
July 25th, 2008 at 4:39 pmTripleKick 2 Says:
Gummich
Your “experience” regarding Obama is laughable and pathetic:
Hey, you’re the one voting for Barr. I notice you skittered right around that. The point with Obama is that he is smart, very smart, and that’s something that has been in mighty short supply around the White House the last seven years. And belittling his experience appears to be all you’ve got.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:40 pmPssst, Bilbo – great post, but T-O-O M-A-N-Y B-I-G W-O-R-D-S…
July 25th, 2008 at 4:40 pmTRoS! Yer missin’ it!
We’ll try to save a couple for ya!
July 25th, 2008 at 4:40 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
——————————————————————————–
indyjones Says:
This is a dumb question. You figure out the answer.
Why don’t you answer some dumb questions for me then, ok:
1) How did you feel when your Dem Pres. Bill Clinton lied under oath?
2) I am looking at a map and can only identify 50 of the 57 states. Where are the other seven located?
3) How much money did Al Gore make from his invention the Internet?
4) when was the first time in Michelle Obama’s adult life when she was proud to be an American?
5) What hursat worse – a hangnail or a migraine headache?
July 25th, 2008 at 4:41 pmAnd they continue to believe that it’s OK to commit crimes as long as the “bad guys” commit crimes they think are worse. And they can’t get it through their thick heads that we treat prisoners with respect to protect US.
And cluster bombs, Willie Pete, and collateral damage doesn’t register because our guys wear the right clothes. $^&^%&%^!!!
I can’t be any clearer than to say; the crimes committed by other people do not excuse the crimes we commit ourselves. If one is on trial for theft, “that guy killed someone”, is not a defense.
Revenge is not a legitimate justification for war. Neither are political, ideological, economic or religious disputes. And no World Court, past present or future, would find otherwise.
It doesn’t matter, to the rest of the World, if Bushco rides into the sunset without admission or punishment. The rest of the World has seen the preponderance of the evidence and will exact payment in blood. Even our trolls will, one day, see that refusing to admit wrongdoing does not equate to a presumption of innocence.
Fools! Childish, simplistic, pig-headed, sociopaths. Just like the mythical masters they worship. And Bushco is no more real to them than they are to the Chimp in Chief.
That vacant look is not, just, stupidity. They look through people because they aren’t “real”. Only their partners and members of the club. They don’t even hear voices from outside their little worlds. I can hear their little brains churning…
“Mommy said that Jesus loves me. I love my country so God must love it too. No country that I/God loves could EVER do anything as bad as a Bad Country!!! It can’t happen. Don’t tell me about it”!!
And then they, finally, have the gall to accuse the opposition of being “too frightened to face facts”.
Sometimes one has to sit back and just appreciate the depths of the irony and hypocrisy. Ya’ gotta give them some credit. It takes either a commitment to stupidity, or a devotion to ignorance, to fail so utterly at grasping the universal concept of justice.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:41 pmRalph – it would depend on what music he was playing. If it was the Dixie Chicks, they can render his ass anywhere they want. ;o)
July 25th, 2008 at 4:41 pm#indyjones Says:
John Kerry reporting for duty…
Ok, this slid by me the first thing. Looks like JK is back with a new moniker. When did it finally get banned?
Sheesh TP, the fact that you won’t ban these cretins by their IP address just tells me that you want them to keep coming back. Why is that?
July 25th, 2008 at 4:42 pmIndy, sweetheart, we asked you a simple question.
We aren’t talking about Bill Clinton or Al Gore or Michelle Obama.
Obfuscation isn’t going to help you.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:43 pmBy the way, George W and his admin has been convicted of nothing but yet there are those of you who call for multiple executions. But strip down some suspected terrorists and we have an international situation. Is there any problem with this reasoning?
July 25th, 2008 at 4:45 pmindyjones Says:
ralph the wonder llama Says:
——————————————————————————–
indyjones Says:
This is a dumb question. You figure out the answer.
Why don’t you answer some dumb questions for me then, ok:
1) How did you feel when your Dem Pres. Bill Clinton lied under oath?
2) I am looking at a map and can only identify 50 of the 57 states. Where are the other seven located?
3) How much money did Al Gore make from his invention the Internet?
4) when was the first time in Michelle Obama’s adult life when she was proud to be an American?
5) What hursat worse – a hangnail or a migraine headache?
Proof positive this one’s IQ is less than 80. It totally lacks critical thinking skills. Troll, do yourself a favor and go to your local JC and take a course in critical thinking. It will serve you well and you may be able to enter into discourse with people and not end up in sounding like a total moron.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:45 pmBilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
——————————————————————————–
#indyjones Says:
John Kerry reporting for duty…
Ok, this slid by me the first thing. Looks like JK is back with a new moniker. When did it finally get banned?
Sheesh TP, the fact that you won’t ban these cretins by their IP address just tells me that you want them to keep coming back. Why is that?
Come on, even you have to laugh at John Kerry for saying that.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:46 pmUh, Bilbo, it’s already waaaaaaaaay too late for that. Our trolls have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they ARE total morons.
It’s sad, really.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:47 pmBilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
——————————————————————————–
indyjones Says:
ralph the wonder llama Says:
——————————————————————————–
indyjones Says:
This is a dumb question. You figure out the answer.
Why don’t you answer some dumb questions for me then, ok:
1) How did you feel when your Dem Pres. Bill Clinton lied under oath?
2) I am looking at a map and can only identify 50 of the 57 states. Where are the other seven located?
3) How much money did Al Gore make from his invention the Internet?
4) when was the first time in Michelle Obama’s adult life when she was proud to be an American?
5) What hursat worse – a hangnail or a migraine headache?
Proof positive this one’s IQ is less than 80. It totally lacks critical thinking skills. Troll, do yourself a favor and go to your local JC and take a course in critical thinking. It will serve you well and you may be able to enter into discourse with people and not end up in sounding like a total moron.
Why do you refuse to answer my questions? They are not that difficult
July 25th, 2008 at 4:47 pmindyjones Says:
Why don’t you answer some dumb questions for me then, ok:
In other words, no, you can’t answer Ralph’s question. Why not just say that instead of throwing out your silly bait?
July 25th, 2008 at 4:48 pmYou first.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:48 pm#indyjones Says:
By the way, George W and his admin has been convicted of nothing but yet there are those of you who call for multiple executions. But strip down some suspected terrorists and we have an international situation. Is there any problem with this reasoning?
So cretin, are you willing to have Bush prosecuted for the crimes he has “allegedly” committed? If not, why.
Everyone who has advocated executing Bush/Cheney has preceded it with “brought to trial”. No one has advocated executing them without giving them their day in court. And yet that’s what you and your ilk want to happen. You want these people to never be given their day in court.
You are a cretin and no longer worth expending time on. I’m done with you and out of here. I feel like I need to take a shower to wash off the stench you and yours have brought here.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:51 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
——————————————————————————–
indyjones Says:
ralph the wonder llama Says:
——————————————————————————–
indyjones Says:
This is a dumb question. You figure out the answer.
Why don’t you answer some dumb questions for me then, ok:
You first.
Okay, Ralph. Then you. Big surprise here: I would want the insurgents to presume my brother innocent until proven guilty. Now, how many of the families of those killed in Iraq are complaining about the terrosists and insurgents violating International law? we don’t expect that from them yet they expect it and use it against us. Now answer my dumb questions.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:51 pmIndy-
July 25th, 2008 at 4:51 pmBTW the suspected terrorists have been convicted of nothing and ’stripping them down’ is a violation of International Law, US Law and common decency as well as being incredibly counter-productive. Yet you excuse it by arguing that, ‘insurgents don’t abide by International Law’… Is there any problem with this reasoning?
By that logic, Cops are allowed to beat law-breakers senseless because they have no respect for the law.
By that logic, I shouldn’t be prosecuted for stealing a Gulfstream from Kenneth Lay ’cause he’s a thief and therfore has no repect for laws of property.
Again I ask, did your mother allow you to get away with this, ‘everyone else is doing it’ argument?
Okay, I’ll play. But then you hafta answer, right? You promised.
1. It was embarrassing for the nation.
2. There are only 50 states. Sheesh. I’d figure you’d know that. But keep in mind that if you’re going to indict Obama for a slip of the tongue, it would only be right to acknowledge that McCain must actually believe that January 2007 came before September 2006, and that Czechoslovakia is still a single country — and that wouldn’t do his foreign policy credentials much good.
3. This is a right-wing myth, based entirely on a deliberate smear of Al Gore’s justifiable pride in his role championing the development of what would become the commercial internet.
4.I suspect she has been proud to be an American most of her life, adult and otherwise, as are most of us. For most of us, however, there are only a few moments when we are REALLY proud of our country.
5. Don’t know — never had a migraine. Hangnails don’t really hurt.
See? That wasn’t so hard. Now you try it.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:55 pmAnswers:
1. Bad
2. I assume someone misspoke. I’m not aware of a 57 state gaffe.
3. non sequitur
4. Ask her.
5. Assuming hursat is a typo, I would say an average migraine hurts more than an average hangnail.
Do I win a prize?
July 25th, 2008 at 4:56 pmindyjones,
Sorry, all you trolls sound alike.
TripleKick 2,
July 25th, 2008 at 4:58 pmYou still haven’t provided us with the quote from Obama’s speech where he recited the anti-american torture propaganda.
McCain recently boasted (again) of having given the names of the Pittsburgh Steelers (or Green Bay Packers) instead of providing the information his interrogators tried to get out of him while he was in captivity.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:59 pmDon’t his own words therefore prove that torture doesn’t work, because the prisoner will say anything, lie, and mislead just to give the interrogators something that sounds good?
I think our trolls are afraid that Sen Obama is going to promote: atheism, immorality, communism, lycanthropy, Islam, black racism, Ebonics, white racism, radical black Christianity, free-love, unilateral disarmament, abortion, vegetarianism, mopery and dopery, gay marriage, polygamy, pacifism, bestiality, voodoo, pedophilia, misogyny, miscegenation, kiddie-porn, socialism, globalization, isolationism, high taxes and foreign languages.
But where, I ask, would he find the time?
July 25th, 2008 at 5:00 pmTriple, indy, You boys get out there and whup’em. Mama didn’t raise no quitters.
July 25th, 2008 at 5:01 pmMarie, that’s only if THEY do it.
When WE torture, we save American lives!
July 25th, 2008 at 5:03 pmI’m worried he’s not going to find the time investigate all the criminal activity of the former administration.
July 25th, 2008 at 5:03 pmTeleMan Says:
You still haven’t provided us with the quote from Obama’s speech where he recited the anti-american torture propaganda.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
And they also need to produce, at least, one foreigner who thought his speech was full of anti American propaganda. Preferably one of the 200,000 Germans who were cheering him.
Please keep in mind, a large proportion of the German public is, unlike some trolls, proficient enough in English that they probably have the skill to check for errors in translation.
July 25th, 2008 at 5:05 pmAnd your average German, if interested at all, would read the whole transcript with a critical eye.
July 25th, 2008 at 5:08 pmbelac Says:
Indy-
BTW the suspected terrorists have been convicted of nothing and ’stripping them down’ is a violation of International Law, US Law and common decency as well as being incredibly counter-productive. Yet you excuse it by arguing that, ‘insurgents don’t abide by International Law’… Is there any problem with this reasoning?
By that logic, Cops are allowed to beat law-breakers senseless because they have no respect for the law.
By that logic, I shouldn’t be prosecuted for stealing a Gulfstream from Kenneth Lay ’cause he’s a thief and therfore has no repect for laws of property.
Again I ask, did your mother allow you to get away with this, ‘everyone else is doing it’ argument?
July 25th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
I’ll go one better.
Suppose two suspected, heavily armed, bank robbers were alleged to run into a Detroit apartment building and, upon hearing a shot, the Police called the local air base and ordered a couple thousand pound bombs on the building. Dozens of women and children, killed and maimed.
This scenario has been playing out for over five years in Afghanistan and Iraq and our trolls think it will take a confession from Bushco to find them guilty?
July 25th, 2008 at 5:17 pmHave our trolls become harpies? Content with crapping on a blind man’s dinner, are they frightened away by anyone who can SEE them?
July 25th, 2008 at 5:33 pmThat’s weird Pete… I was just reading a lecture on Phineas… our trolls also seem interested in punishing those who have too acurately predicted events… Harpies it ie!
July 25th, 2008 at 5:38 pmthis needs a repost -
indyjones Says He’s a Good Little Fascist Nazi
July 25th, 2008 at 5:39 pmOver 400 posts, and in almost everyone TrippleBedWetter and indyjohnson writes, no facts or evidence is offered.
We provide evidence, and they write “Well, what about Clinton?”. We provide links, and they ask why Michelle Obama is not proud of America. We move the discussion forward, and they wonder why Obama thinks we have 57 states…
No refutation of our positions, only distractions away from the facts. They can’t explain what they stand for, because they stand for nothing: except an imperial King Bush.
July 25th, 2008 at 5:48 pmbelac Says:
That’s weird Pete… I was just reading a lecture on Phineas… our trolls also seem interested in punishing those who have too acurately predicted events… Harpies it ie!
July 25th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
What is sad is that; to anyone with a bit of a Classical education there’s nothing new about what Bushco has done, or how it’s punished. I thought Bush was an idiot the first time I heard him speak, and I was surprised the (Bleeps!) actually did what we know they did. To say nothing of our suspicions.
And they blunder along oblivious to history. Don’t they know the fate of the proud and disdainful? It’s hard to think of a story, fiction or historical, where hubris is not a capital crime. Do they really need to hear Prometheus groan to realize what it means to defy the will of higher authority?
Because they have obviously forgotten that the Will of the Citizens, of the United States of America, is the Highest authority. And a great many Citizens are just remembering that fact.
The good news is that those citizens are not of the group who are willing to trust our fate to gods or despots. They are not Moral Majority, Young Republicriminals, trolls, or harpies (who I suspect find voting too overwhelming, so they don’t vote). They are people who are sick of this crap and aren’t going to take it anymore.
July 25th, 2008 at 6:06 pmBTW. Someone who heard, somewhere, that the Romans “kicked @ss so they’re cool” has not benefited from a Classical education.
July 25th, 2008 at 6:13 pmIt is obvious that indyjones was never in the military, (unless firing from behind his M-79 Keyboard/Grande launcher counts).
His total exposure to combat is from movies and torture is from watching “24″.
Unlike him, those of us who have been in combat have been grateful that, until Dubya’s clusterfu(k, the US has followed the Geneva Convention.I just hope none of his kids ever have to serve, because he is helping to put them in Harm’s Way, just like all the Chickenhawks have, none of which have ever served.
July 25th, 2008 at 7:13 pmSince our trolls haven’t answered one question , I must assume they are hiding something . They must be terrorists. I say send them to Gitmos.
July 25th, 2008 at 7:33 pmOh, and triple prick, we know Leftside Annie, and you,troll,are no Annie.
atony and guidedog Lido
Since our trolls haven’t answered one question , I must assume they are hiding something . They must be terrorists. I say send them to Gitmos.
Oh, and triple prick, we know Leftside Annie, and you,troll,are no Annie.
atony and guidedog Lido
July 25th, 2008 at 7:33 pm
Isn’t the neocon creed, “a lack of evidence for anything is proof of something”?
They can’t prove they are not hiding something so, by Reichwing “logic”, they MUST be hiding another thing. Otherwise we would be offered proof that they’re not hiding something. Which would prove we were right all along.
I think I need to throw up and lie down now. But, I begin to understand “The Power of Nightmares”.
(Note: Look up the Power of Nightmares on YouTube. It’s three hours but well spent.)
July 25th, 2008 at 7:44 pmI believe that waterboarding is torture and Americans shouldn’t be doing it.
Christopher Hitchens (and others) have volunteered to undergo waterboarding, to better determine if waterboarding is torture.
If Bush really believes that waterboarding isn’t torture, he should volunteer to undergo it himself.
It might give people more confidence that Bush knows what the technique entails. And it might make his claims that he believes the technique is not torture, more credible.
If waterboarding isn’t torture, there should be reason for Bush to avoid having it done to him.
President Bush, please consider it.
July 25th, 2008 at 9:01 pmIt was supposed to read:
If waterboarding isn’t torture, there should be no reason for Bush to avoid having it done to him.
July 25th, 2008 at 9:03 pmbackup Says:
If waterboarding isn’t torture, there should be no reason for Bush to avoid having it done to him.
Aren’t you a little late to the party, with this opinion? Like about five years too late? Do you think this absolves you of supporting this administration’s policies for that period of time? You’re opinion sounds like an attempt to whitewash your former support for this administration, and it’s pretty transparent. If you wanted to sound believeable, you should have prefaced it with a little disclaimer, about your former support, or other posters might mistake you for a liberal, and we both know that’s not the case, so next time, start by mentioning your (former) position.
July 25th, 2008 at 10:59 pmSpeaking only for myself, I find b-kup refreshing after the Invasion of the Sock Puppets over the last few days. I gotta give credit where it’s due.
Backup, if you’re there, I recommend reading this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_of_nightmares
I had read about it once and then forgot all about it.
And the next time you have three hours, check out The power of Nightmares at You tube. Even though I don’t share all the opinions and conclusions reached, (I take everything with some salt), I found it tremendously informative. Lots of stuff I had forgotten or hadn’t realized in the first place.
July 25th, 2008 at 11:43 pmbarfly. I am late to the party. I was convinced by the TP thread that linked to a vanity fair article where Hitchens underwent waterboarding. I said so at the time. Maybe a month ago.
I don’t claim to be a liberal or a progressive. But, I will adopt what I feel are the best ideas regardless of who claims them. The progressive view on waterboarding is the stronger view.
Peace, my friend.
July 25th, 2008 at 11:51 pmpete. Thanks. I’ll try to check it out.
Leftside Annie. Thanks for linking the Obama speech in Berlin. Great speech.
July 25th, 2008 at 11:53 pm