Suskind: White House Ordered Forged, Backdated Letter After Invasion To Concoct Saddam-9/11 Link
Suskind: White House Ordered Forged, Backdated Letter After Invasion To Concoct Saddam-9/11 Link
A new book by Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Ron Suskind claims that, after the Iraq war began, the White House ordered the CIA to forge a “backdated, handwritten letter” from the head of Iraqi intelligence to Saddam Hussein, in an attempt to tie Hussein to the 9/11 attacks. Here’s what Suskind reports:
– Saddam Hussein’s intelligence chief, Tahir Jalil Habbush al-Tikriti, told U.S. and British officials there was no WMD in Iraq, “intelligence they received in plenty of time to stop an invasion.”
– In the fall of 2003, the White House ordered CIA Director George Tenet to forge a “fake letter from Habbush to Saddam, backdated to July 1, 2001,” Suskind writes. “It said that 9/11 ringleader Mohammad Atta had actually trained for his mission in Iraq” and that Iraq bought yellowcake uranium from Niger with the help of al Qaeda.
– The letter was commissioned “from the highest reaches of the White House.” “It would have to come from the very top,” Suskind told NPR today.
After the fake letter was released in late 2003, press outlets reported it as evidence of a Saddam/al Qaeda link. “Now, if this is true, that blows the lid off al Qaeda—Saddam,” said Bill O’Reilly at the time.
“The White House plans to push back hard,” Politico reports. Former CIA Director George Tenet today called the charges “ridiculous” and questioned whether Suskind is a “serious journalist.” “There was no such order from the White House to me,” he said. On NBC’s Today Show, Suskind said Tenet simply does not remember the letter — but Tenet’s staff does:
I think this is part of George’s memory issue. … He seems not to remember it. That’s at least what he claims. In this book, instead of going to George, I went to all the people around George, close to George, who remember because they were involved in the thing, and they remember what George says to them.
Watch it:
After a White House meeting, Tenet went back to the CIA and ordered his staff to forge the letter. “Listen Marine, you’re not going to like this, but here goes,” Tenet told Rob Richer, former head of the CIA’s Near East Division, according to Richer.
Suskind also said he spoke with U.S. intelligence officials who stated that Bush was informed unequivocally in January 2003 that Hussein had no weapons of mass destruction.
White House press spokesman Tony Fratto attacked Suskind today, stating that he “makes a living from gutter journalism” and calling the book one of Suskind’s “bizarre conspiracy theories.”
Topic Cloud
Anyone surprised?
August 5th, 2008 at 10:24 amRichard Clarke noted that two days after his inaugeration, Bush began looking for a reason to attack Iraq. It was his goal to invade them no matter what he had to do to make it happen. Sociopath.
August 5th, 2008 at 10:26 amRe-investigate 9/11
Impeach.
Trial for Treason and Crimes Against Humanity.
(sometimes I feel like a broken record)
August 5th, 2008 at 10:29 amAfter a White House meeting, Tenet went back to the CIA and ordered his staff to forge the letter. “Listen Marine, you’re not going to like this, but here goes,” Tenet told Rob Richer, former head of the CIA’s Near East Division, according to Richer.
Military leaders also swear to uphold the Constitution and are just as criminal in this act as the man who told him to do it.
Time to bring Den Hague to America (or rather the Bush Regime to Den Hague so they get a valid trial).
August 5th, 2008 at 10:29 amCan you spell ‘Medal of Freedom’?
August 5th, 2008 at 10:31 amSaddam Hussein’s intelligence chief, Tahir Jalil Habbush al-Tikriti, told U.S. and British officials there was no WMD in Iraq, “intelligence they received in plenty of time to stop an invasion.”
4000+ dead soldiers later. Countless innocent Iraqi citizens killed. Untold number of injuries.
August 5th, 2008 at 10:36 amAll which could have been prevented????
I am truly saddened, but not surprised.
But, please, someone inform me, why does this administration always get a pass?
From the media?
From Congress?
From us?
“On the record”. Hard to dispute that, huh?
August 5th, 2008 at 10:37 amMeddle uv freedumb
August 5th, 2008 at 10:37 amWow. I bet the Corporate Media is all over this…
**crickets**
August 5th, 2008 at 10:39 amDRxJ Says: But, please, someone inform me, why does this administration always get a pass? From the media? From Congress? From us?
Fear. Al Gore said it best in “The Assault on Reason” - when you remove the middle class, who instigated the poor to revolution, you end up with no opposition, oversight r accountability.
It’s why we have $4 a gallon gas, Recession, job losses, inflation, housin crisis, and record Corporate profits and salaries - to keep us all impoverished, afraid of losing what little we do have, and silent.
August 5th, 2008 at 10:40 am#6 :
But, please, someone inform me, why does this administration always get a pass
I’ve been asking this same damn question every day Since Day One.
August 5th, 2008 at 10:41 amThe whole 9/11 and “War on terror” Nightmare was Cheney & The neoCON’s revenge for Watergate.
I guess elephants (GOP) never forget.
how long till someone mentions Sandy “Burgler” and somehow tries to tie him to this gross act of treason?
If congress had ANY b$lls, they’d pass the “war treason” act, which makes any fabrication of evidence intended to lead the country to war on false pretenses an act of treason.
Unfortunately, with spineless, crony hacks like Pelosi and Reid at the wheel, such a well needed bill would go nowhere.
August 5th, 2008 at 10:47 amTony Fratto : The perfect Sychophant and Yes Man.
August 5th, 2008 at 10:48 amAnd the best that clown Fratto can come up with is the absurd claim that Suskind, a Pulitzer winner and former reporter for the nation’s most highly regarded and very conservative business publication makes his living from “gutter journalism”. It’s as if they know they have gotten away with it. There is neither the time nor the will to impeach. Bush fatigue and the need to fix the mess they left will prevent serious governmental enforcement of their crimes. Be thankful for investigative journalists like Suskind. They are the only thing out there to counter the whitewash.
August 5th, 2008 at 10:48 amOnce again this brings to mind the phrase the intelligence is “being fixed around the policy” from the Downing Street Memo.
Whenever evidence of this obsession of going to war for fake reasons appears, I think of that poor 10 year old Iraqi boy who had both his parents killed and both his arms blown off during a US bombing raid at the war’s start.
August 5th, 2008 at 10:50 amAnother revelation and once again nothing will happen to anyone who was or is part of this warmongering corrupt dictator administration.
August 5th, 2008 at 10:53 am#2 unbelievable Says:
Richard Clarke noted that two days after his inaugeration, Bush began looking for a reason to attack Iraq. It was his goal to invade them no matter what he had to do to make it happen. Sociopath.
Good Morning unbelievable :)
Also we can’t forget Cheney’s famous quote either : “the campaign was over and that our actions in office would not be dictated by what had to be said in the campaign”. They both are true “Architects of Evil”. Hopefully they get adjoining cells, they deserve each other.
August 5th, 2008 at 10:59 am19 Hijackers with boxcutters is another conspiracy theory…
August 5th, 2008 at 10:59 amSo with georgie, nancy & harry, the precedent has been set:
August 5th, 2008 at 11:00 amFrom now on, the president of the United States and their administration can do anything at anytime and there will be absolutely no questions asked.
Themis Says:
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You can expect these types of conspiracy theory books to come out from registered Democrats like Suskind about once a week between now and the election in an effort to: (1) influence the election; and (2) make money.
You mean like Jerome Corsi’s “The Obama Nation” and David Freddoso’s ” The Case Against Barack Obana” ? Troll tool.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:02 amSometimes I think even if Bush & Cheney went on Live National TV and announced their guilt for all their crimes (9/11 etc)—-Certain (nameless) Morons still would not believe this.
jessh.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:04 amWow, you right wingers are such sissies that you will ignore the ever-growing pile of evidence against the administration that has you too terrorized to see the truth.
Why are right-wingers such massive cowards?
August 5th, 2008 at 11:05 amAnd?
Daily listing the litany of crimes this administration has perpetrated is entertaining but to what end? When will something be done about these criminals? My guess is never.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:07 amAnd we are to act as if we haven’t been saying that they lied us into Iraq? I have read no less than a half dozen books to this effect.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:07 amI posted this on Think Fast after reading it on Raw Story. Got to see Suskind this a.m. on Today and agree 100% with his comment quoted in this story. If you want the truth, go to the workers who were forced to pull this kind of crap off. Tenet, Gonzo, et. al. seem to have some serious memory issues and wouldn’t tell the truth if their lives depended on it. Nancy — get off your a$$ and get a committee together to investigate impeachment. Please don’t start another committee investigation that ends nowhere.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:10 amWas Nancy Pelosi wiretapped by the Republicans?
August 5th, 2008 at 11:12 amDid they find incriminating dirt on her?
Is this why she declared “imopeachment is off the table” so early on?
HOW MUCH evidence do we need to impeach bush and cheney? The only reason that congress won’t is because too many heads would roll. Every time something like this comes out they are called “conspiracy theorists”. “…conspiracy theories on 9/11 should not be tolerated”, says puppet bush. Yeah, HIDE IT HIDE IT
August 5th, 2008 at 11:14 amThey should ALL be tried for Crimes against humanity and HIGH TREASON. If not, we have deeper pits of hell to look forward to (NWO). WAKE UP!
Themis Says:
You can expect these types of conspiracy theory books to come out from registered Democrats like Suskind about once a week between now and the election in an effort to: (1) tell the truth; and (2) expose the war criminals.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:16 amWorth pointing out that Dennis Kucinich’s first article of impeachment reads as follows:
Article I
Creating a Secret Propaganda Campaign to Manufacture a False Case for War Against Iraq.
Well now, what was it Pelosi took off the table?
August 5th, 2008 at 11:18 amKay Says:
Was Nancy Pelosi wiretapped by the Republicans?
Did they find incriminating dirt on her?
Is this why she declared “imopeachment is off the table” so early on?
Of course they did. The only reasonable explaination for them bypassing the FISA court is that their list of wiretaps include every Democrat in Congress.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:18 amI don’t believe Tenet supported this idea.
I do believe he’s culpable, & did it against his best judgment.
CRS, (can’t remember shit) is the ‘disorder of the day’ now.
George, if you stepped in it, it’s on you.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:19 amYou can’t take back what you knew was wrong in the first place.
Where are the judges when it comes to investigating these allegations?? Why does it take the free press to do all the work?? WE need a major investigation into the Bush administration NOW. The people in this country deserve to have a transparent government that is open and accountable, not secret and sinister. Enough of this garbage, get on with the investigations!
August 5th, 2008 at 11:22 amI’m starting to think that Kucinich is the only real patriot left in Congress.
Kucinich ‘12!
August 5th, 2008 at 11:22 amRight(Reich) wingers are so totally engrossed in their NOBLE LIE that they can`t see the forest for the trees…… they make up for being cowards by being haters of the left because they know we are right(not reich).They are spewing forth so much hate towards Obama and scraping the bottom of the barrel to do so and the barrel keeps getting deeper and deeper.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:22 amMore skank on BushitCo. Drink deeply of that well, McIIIrd. You’re tied to this, in up to your flabby wattle.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:22 amSo what are you little sissy boys going to do about it? Bush makes Nixon look like a Saint with his Watergate. Reagan looks like Jesus walking on water even though he traded arms for hostages (undermining the foreign policy of a sitting president and committing treason) while defying a congressional ban on funding the contras. So what are you little girlie boys going to do about the big, bad Bush?
The Democrat party is impotent. Pelosi gives away the farm by taking impeachment off the table. Lie back and enjoy your rape Pelosi, one of the few times that it is true to say that she asked for it. Hey, we cannot go after any cabinet officials or other officers for their blatant violation of the law or contempt of Congress. After all, the Congressional Democrat party will just bend over, spread their cheeks and ask for it right up their collective ***. So what are you going to do about it little, little children? You obviously cannot play with the adults so go back to sucking your thumbs.
Obama, THE ONE,just proves that the Democrat party just does not want to win. Here we have the best conditions in the history of the party to take the presidency and expand the majority in both houses of Congress. What do we do? Well, we sure as hell will not fight for it. We will not fight fire with fire. Obama said that if they bring a knife to the fight, he will bring a gun. Look at what they have done to his lead in the polls with their negative and demeaning attacks. If they came with a knife, he sure as hell came with a limp d***.
Those of you who know me from my previous posts, know that I am a strong liberal and Democrat. But I am fed up with the party. They have been emasculated. The Republicans know that we will not fight. What I said above is exactly how the Republicans characterize us. Their contempt grows by the day because we refuse to fight. The Clintons knew how to fight. The biggest boost to the party in recent years came when Bill Clinton blew up during the FOX interview and took down Wallace. I fear for the party and even more so for the country. We need to put the pressure on although it may already be too late.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:23 amI think we need to compile a list of those awarded the Medal of Freedom by Bush. It seems to be a pretty good indicator of who was willing to do Bush’s bidding, no matter the legalities. A pretty piece of metal to hang around you neck so you’ll forget about eviscerating the Constitution and/or sending 4000+ American soldiers to die for a lie. In fact, we can pretty much add the 9/11 victims to Tenet’s culpability since he covered for Bushco’s incompetence during the 9/11 Commission hearings.
Friggin’ traitors, every one of them….if there were EVER a President who deserved to be impeached, its the clown we have in office now. If he doesn’t get it, then they should amend the Constitution to do away with impeachment altogether.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:24 amCall or email your ocngressman now and demand support for Kucinich’s articles of impeachment.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:24 amIf this is yellow journalism, it’s only reflecting the blinding streak found on these neocon’s backbone.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:26 amPNAC: One of the core missions outlined in the 2000 report Rebuilding America’s Defenses is “fight and decisively win multiple, simultaneous major theater wars.”[25]
The report also states:
“Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor”
REOPEN 911 investigations.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:26 amI don’t know that’s because they’re sissies. I think it has more to do with their lack of concern for objective reality.
They recognize that the Reality-based community is inherently liberally biased, as are the facts and logic on which that reality is based. So they refuse to give in to reality. It hurts too much.
Of course, they ARE incredible sissies. I just don’t think that’s the cause of the behavior you describe.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:26 amI agree, JMOHR. I’m ready to run on priciples. And if we can’t win I’m ready for the Republicans to finish destroying it. So we can start over.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:27 amObama has managed to flip flop his way to a dead heat with McCain. I can’t believe it. I’m stunned. Obama is getting bad advice from fake Democrats.
tenet wasn’t Bill Clintons first choice. Newt the lizzard was running congress then, remember him?
Maybe check your facts before lumping democrats in the same barrel with this bunch of criminals please.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:32 amRalph, perhaps you are correct, but one should never pass up an opportunity to point out the overwhelming cowardice of the right-wing.
It should be repeated over and over until EVERYONE knows just how fearful and cowardly the right wing is.
Maybe some of these insecure cowboy wannabees will decide they don’t want to be associated with the cowering, frightened, and weak Republicans any more.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:33 amLet’s play the America’s favorite neocon game: attack the messenger!
“It would have to come from the very top,” So, Bush? Oh, sorry, the very top, that’d be Cheney.
What a couple of buffoons our leaders are: Smirk & Sneer.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:34 amSuskind, a Pulitzer prize-winning journalist, tells Steve Inskeep that a secret mission was conducted in which a British intelligence agent met with the head of Iraqi intelligence in a secret location in Jordan, and the Iraqi conveyed that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:35 amIt’s all about scapegoating and distracting the population from the real issues. So they take the tactics from the Nazi’s and scapegoat a political group as the “radical far-left” bent on destroying this country with their Marxist ideology and hatred towards America. And you see, the right wing media repeats it over and over and over and over until you actually come to believe it’s true.
This neo-conservative movement knows what their doing (these propaganda tactics worked in the past) and between you and me, I have a really hard time believing Obama will be elected and that any justice will be served against these corrupt Republican establishment. Maybe I’m pessimistic, but just watch how effective this powerful GOP noise machine is. They may have no substance, but they are very loud and they get their message out.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:36 amI fear for this country. The stage has been set for neverending shenanigans that seem to carry no likelihood of accountability, let alone justice.
Anyone who still doesn’t believe that we were DELIBERATELY lied to about Iraq is a putz!
August 5th, 2008 at 11:37 amAnd then the metals were passed around to the deceiptfully corrupt who got many thousands killed for their dreamt glory.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:41 amThey are traitors who never will get the trial they so deserve because our Congress is so complacent to corruption.
cabbinbagger Says:
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Anyone here remember that George Tenet was appointed director of the CIA by President William Jefferson “Bill” Clinton?
If there’s any kind of criminal conspiracy, it goes back at least two administrations, one Republican, one Democrat.
**who gives a crap about who appointed this crook? The point is he broke the law at Bushies bidding. End of story. Your assinine comment just points out reich wingers ability to try to deflect the current problems by invoking “Bill Clinton”. Get over it and face facts. Impeach Bush and his whole crime family so we can all get past this 7 1/2 year nightmare!
August 5th, 2008 at 11:41 amcabbinbagger Says:
“Anyone here remember that George Tenet was appointed director of the CIA by President William Jefferson “Bill” Clinton?”
Wasn’t his first choice. Tenet got the nod only after the repugs blocked the nomination of Lake. Regardless, with a few notable exceptions, repugs and dems are one and the same. Enablers. Co-conspirators. The system is broken and if ya think Obama and dem-controlled house is gonna fix it, think again. It will take something far more radical than that.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:41 am(Actually, i’ll be surprised if Obama wins.)
Agreed. Very well put.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:42 amAfter a White House meeting, Tenet went back to the CIA and ordered his staff to forge the letter. “Listen Marine, you’re not going to like this, but here goes,” Tenet told Rob Richer, former head of the CIA’s Near East Division, according to Richer.
George Tenet is not going to admit to this letter. If he does, he will be admitting to the fact that he committed treason.
How do these people live with themselves seeing what their actions have done to this once great country.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:44 amJebus. These guys make Nixon look like a friggin’ SAINT.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:44 amALL OF THEM WITCHES!
August 5th, 2008 at 11:45 amSo, the truth finally starts coming out and some of you guys want to bail on the democrats because the bush crime machine has the goods on them, that about it?
Guess you think that by piling on the democrats that you will be helping change things.
I know our democratic party as a whole has an image problem, but I also know that there are some good people in the party. There are no good people in the republican party.
Until we get rid of these criminals we will have no chance to turn things around.
Just keep on helping the trolls trash the only opposition to what is happening in our country, that will help.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:45 amAnd the beat goes on Says:
If you want the truth, go to the workers who were forced to pull this kind of crap off.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:10 am
Yes, before there are too many more suicides.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:45 amFred Says:
“So, the truth finally starts coming out and some of you guys want to bail on the democrats because the bush crime machine has the goods on them, that about it?”
The dems have and will continue to get my full support. It would just be nice to get something in return, for a change. Justice, for example.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:49 amI disagree with you on this lividlib, sorry. The only democrat that has been totally on board with the bush admin has been lieberman who has had to change parties.
democrats and this pack of thug republicans are not the same.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:50 amFred,
“I know our democratic party as a whole has an image problem…”
No Fred it has a substance problem. All bluster and no action.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:51 amDRxJ said:
But, please, someone inform me, why does this administration always get a pass?
From the media?
From Congress?
Because they’re all bought and paid for.
From us?
Because herd mentality is far more prevalent than the type of patriotism the founding fathers championed.
http://progressiveworldreview.com
August 5th, 2008 at 11:52 amChocolate Jesus Says:
If congress had ANY b$lls, they’d pass the “war treason” act, which makes any fabrication of evidence intended to lead the country to war on false pretenses an act of treason.
trea·son –noun
1. the offense of acting to overthrow one’s government or to harm or kill its sovereign.
2. a violation of allegiance to one’s sovereign or to one’s state.
3. the betrayal of a trust or confidence; breach of faith; treachery.
I don’t think we need to pass legislation. I’m pretty sure that knowingly lying to this nation and creating false evidence, in order to justify invading a country, falls under #2 and #3 in the dictionary definition of “treason”. I’m thinking it would also meet #1, since the Bush Crime Family has effectively overthrown our government.
August 5th, 2008 at 11:52 amSorry Fred, you get no chance to change things unless you win the election and increase Democrat majorities in the Congress. However, your attitude shows why we will lose. Screw the Democrat party leadership. They are leading us down the path to defeat, ONCE AGAIN. It is time for a little tough love. Their stupid (if not insane) view of playing nice has to be changed. If it means threatening them with the loss of support, then so be it.
Fred, do you really want the Republicans to win? Come on, tell me? Are you really afraid of having responsibility so you want the Republicans to win? Seems like it. I do not give a shit as to how many good people we have in the party. It does not matter if we do not win. Get it through your thick head. The party has an image problem for the exact reasons I have stated and that you demonstrate. They attack and we roll over to take it. Well put this into your empty head, maybe it is time to change parties to try to usurp the ruling factions of the current Republican party because one more loss will show that you pukes are nothing more than a joke. Show get off your ass, get mad and do something other than whining.
August 5th, 2008 at 12:00 pmI guess raising minimum wage was something that the republicans would have eventually gotten around to, right?
Do you have any idea of what positive things the democratic party has done since 06 or is it just that they have been unable to put the criminals in jail that drives your desire to lump them all together?
August 5th, 2008 at 12:01 pmJMOHR Says:
I’ve always respected your posts until today. Your personal attack based on emotion shows me you are as capable as anyone of making mistakes.
Have fun guys I’m out for the day. Remember who the enemy is.
August 5th, 2008 at 12:04 pmThe truth is gradually coming to light and all the GOP can do is blame the guy holding the flashlight. These PIGS have no morals but faux morals for show only.
August 5th, 2008 at 12:08 pmOoooh the minimum wage, gosh that should really give a leg up to the working poor.
Wake up! The current administration is driving a wedge into the heart and soul of working class Americans through nefarious ways and the job of oversight by congress, arguably the reason I might add they were elected has gone absolutely nowhere.
August 5th, 2008 at 12:09 pmMinimum wage BFD! it’s completely coopted by the war/energy/banking juggernaut that is this corrupt administration and all the Democratic leaders can think to do is roll over.
Soory Fred: Wow, every major issue the Democrats lost to the minority party and came across as looking like wimps just like you. Gosh, lose on Iraq; lose on global warming; lose on telecom immunity; lose on the fourth amendment; lose on politicization of the DoJ; lose on getting anyone to comply with subpoenas. Oh, I am soooooo impressed with our victory on the minimum wage. Soooo manly, soooo impressive, soooo much more important than all those other issues. What else will you get on your knees and beg for from the massa party of Republicans?
Get mad you little whimp. Do something about it. Fight for your party, the liberal prinicples and your country. Or make your pathetic little noises, roll over and ask to kiss your new president McCain’s a**.
August 5th, 2008 at 12:10 pmI’m coming to hate the Democratic party. Christ this country is doomed.
August 5th, 2008 at 12:11 pmFred Says:
LividLib Says:
with a few notable exceptions, repugs and dems are one and the same. Enablers. Co-conspirators.
I disagree with you on this lividlib, sorry. The only democrat that has been totally on board with the bush admin has been lieberman who has had to change parties.
democrats and this pack of thug republicans are not the same.
Sorry Fred. Not so. Individually they may differ, a bit, but collectively, aas “parties” they are in lockstep agreement on the major issues: Both parties believ in and work assiduusly to increas corporate authoritarianism, the National Security State–with concomitant reductions in Constitutional liberties and personal civil rights–plus more surveillance, reduction in Govt. services, oversight and accountability. Bot are equally committed to continued USer military adventurism. Fer chrissake, Obama doesn’t want to END the ICORP of Iraq, he just wants to move it to Afghanistan.
They differ at the margins, on “wedge issues,’ where the heat and absence of light can create the appearance that the differences between them are significant, but they’re really only cosmetic, issues promoted to preserve the camouflage of seeming difference without any significant disagreement…
August 5th, 2008 at 12:15 pmJMOR, So we’d be just as bad off if the dems would’ve won in 2000 or 2004? You say “Get off your ass and do something.” What are you doing? Insulting Fred, is that an example of getting off your ass?
August 5th, 2008 at 12:18 pmBefore we have each other for lunch, here’s a thought…
The enemy is us!
YOU can take action without breaking laws.
YOU can call congress critters 10X day, if you feel it will help.
YOU can talk to neighbors, work associates & family.
YOU can vote for whomever you feel is the best candidate.
YOU can flip flop, roll over or just play dead…your decision.
YOU can make a difference.
Republics eat their own. Progressives work together for change.
I know these are difficult times. For everyone. But…
DON’T GET MAD. GET EVEN!
August 5th, 2008 at 12:24 pmI certainly do not want to derail this thread - So, when are Bush, Cheney and their willing co-conspirators going to be brought to justice?
But, there truly does seem to be less and less difference between the two parties these days. I heard a very disturbing story on Democracy Now this morning about lobbyists moving into government, and then moving back into the private sector, influencing foreign policy to their own ends and they spoke of people like Trent Lott and Sandy Berger re: China. Corruption abounds! In both parties and that includes an advisor to Obama as far as China goes.
I agree with JMOHR that we need to show more fight and the Dems need to show more fight.
Speaking of corruption, so when will Bush and Cheney face justice again?
August 5th, 2008 at 12:26 pmOk guys, one last post before I must run.
Let me pose a question to those of you who have come to hate the democratic party so much.
Do you think a democratic majority in congress and a democratic party will:
Ever invade a soverign nation unprovoked?
Destroy our economy intentionally?
Claim and support executive power to the point of dictatorship?
Help eradicate the middle class of America?
De-regulate corporations so they can gouge Americans instead of providing services for fair profit?
Give insurance and pharma the upper hand to gouge Americans?
Oil????
etc.
etc.
I have not seen one practical alternative suggestion so far. Just turn on the demoncrats……how is that going to help, please.
You guys act like everything should be fair and square and that there are no powerful opposition players. Remember, the republicans are killers. JFK, Bobby Kennedy, MLK, etc. These people were killed in America for political reasons. We are up against evil people with evil agenda’s.
To imply that the democrats are equal partners is just sad. Please note that all of the dead politicians are democrats.
To imply that I am a wimp just because I oppose your view is also, just sad. You don’t know me or what I do every day and to judge me on this is equivilant to saying that someone is a career criminal just because they smoke pot. Please keep your personal judgments to yourself and offer a real solution if you can.
August 5th, 2008 at 12:27 pmlink for that Democracy Now story:
American Foreign Policy Brought to You by China: Advisers to Obama, McCain Tied to US Multinationals that Profit from Beijing
August 5th, 2008 at 12:27 pmFred, I will apologize for making you the target of my attack. But you really do not seem to get it. This is what the Republican party does to the Democrats. They focus, they demean and they attack relentlessly. The purpose is to sway on those who are independent or on the fring of either party but not strongly attached to a candidate. Unfortunately, you respond the same way that we, as Democrats do. We simply fail to show that emotion.
There are three forms of persuasion: Ethos, pathos and logos. The Republicans are experts at the first two. They destroy the personal credibility for the candidate and then they destroy the natural sympathy (emotional connection) with that candidtate by making them look too weak or too unmotivated to fight. Logos does very little for you when no one listens.
Fred, I did not want you to tell me that that you respected my past posts or that you understand my personal attack as a mistake. You needed to tell me to go to hell. You needed to show some emotion. It is the same thing that the Democratic party needs to do and it will take all of us to move them in that direction.
Look, I was a litigator (criminal and later complex civil litigation) and a nationally ranked debater in college. I learned a little about persuasion. Hell, the last three presidential elections teach us what we need to know. Clinton got emotional and he connected, he was an attack dog when necessary and he won. We saw what happened to Gore (yes he won popular vote but should have done much better) and Kerry Obama has the policies, he has the intellect and he would be a better president than HRC. However, the Democrats need to pull together, focus on message and kick some butt.
So I am sorry for the attack since I really do respect you. However, we are in a knife fight and we really need to recognize that fact.
August 5th, 2008 at 12:28 pmIf this be true, it is prosectable–it is against the law for American intelligence to use deception such as this against the American people and needs be investigated fully. If, as Suskind asserts, it comes from the top of the WH, it is certainly impeachable.
August 5th, 2008 at 12:29 pmAccording to the original 2003 story,, the second part of the letter is even more interesting . . . the yellowcake / wilson issue.
“The second item explains how Iraqi intelligence, helped by “a small team from the al-Qaeda organisation”, arranged for an (unspecified) shipment from Niger to reach Baghdad by way of Libya and Syria.
Iraqi officials believe this is a reference to the controversial shipments of uranium ore that Iraq acquired from Niger to aid Saddam in his efforts to develop an atom bomb.”
August 5th, 2008 at 12:36 pmFred,
No one here hates the Democratic party. However, we really fear that those wonderful policy positions that you outlined will never see the light of day. The Republicans were successful in making the Democrats look obstructionist when they Democrats provided far more cooperation than Clinton received. The Democrats take control of congress and the Democrats are obstructed at every turn. However, other than press conferences and news releases, the Democrats fail to press the point home. How do I know? Look at the polls.
Fred, I know where you are coming from. This is literally one of those “form over substance” issues. Unfortunately, we may be good at governing but we suck at politics. The solution for the Democratic party is to learn how to campaign. We do not need to become the Republicans, but we do have to run the campaign and lead the people to our view. This is politics.
August 5th, 2008 at 12:38 pmJust to clarify, I gave + recommends for JMOHR for basic attitude, not for personal attacks against Fred.
It is time to get angry. The Democratic leadership has sacrificed so much (justice/impeachment) because they thought that it would help get a Democrat in the Whitehouse, but it does seem like they are risking it all by wrong-headedly taking the said “high-road” for yet another campaign.
It doesn’t matter which road you’re on when they’re leading us over a cliff.
This is not the time to remain “cordial” when the stakes are so high. It just defies common-sense to invite the thiefs in for tea. The more we roll over, the more it solidifies the perception that the general voting populace could have of the Republicans being right because they are louder when no Democrat is clearly standing up to defend the truth.
Being right is not enough. The Democratic Leadership has to fight for it too… At least as hard as the Republicans are and we seem so far from that.
August 5th, 2008 at 12:39 pmfrom allspinzone.com:
White House Ordered Forgery of Saddam / al-Qaeda Link?
In a new book hitting the stores, Ron Suskind writes that, post-9/11, the White House directed the CIA to forge a letter from Saddam’s security minister to create the impression of a link between Iraq and al-Qaeda. Bush administration spokesperson Tony Fratto characterized Suskind’s claim as “absurd” - and interestingly enough, Fratto is right.
Commentary By: Richard Blair
File this under “just another outrage”. Well, maybe not. According to Politico, author Ron Suskind claims in a new book that’s hitting the stores:
…the White House ordered the CIA to forge a back-dated, handwritten letter from the head of Iraqi intelligence to Saddam Hussein.
Suskind writes in “The Way of the World,” to be published Tuesday, that the alleged forgery – adamantly denied by the White House – was designed to portray a false link between Hussein’s regime and al Qaeda as a justification for the Iraq war.
The author also claims that the Bush administration had information from a top Iraqi intelligence official “that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq – intelligence they received in plenty of time to stop an invasion.” …
Normally, I’d just let such a report fall through the cracks of my mind (and ASZ). I mean, how many tell-all books have to be written to document the lies, secrecy and deceit that have become the legacy of George Bush’s presidency? There’s already a special library section dedicated to the genre, written by either former administration insiders (such as O’Neill, Clarke, and McClellan) or credible authors (like Suskind, Hersh, and Woodward), each of whom had unique access to the movers, shakers, and decision makers. So why am I picking on this particular instance? For instructional purposes.
Here’s how a “non-denial-denial” works:
The White House flatly denied Suskind’s account. Tony Fratto, deputy White House press secretary, told Politico: “The allegation that the White House directed anyone to forge a document from Habbush to Saddam is just absurd.” …
Damnation. Mr. Fratto is right. It is absurd. Which is why it’s probably true. Note that Fratto did not deny the allegation, only that it was absurd.
Absurd (?b-sûrd’, -zûrd’) adj: So senseless as to be laughable. Syn: foolish, harebrained, idiotic, imbecilic, insane, lunatic, mad, moronic, nonsensical, preposterous, silly, softheaded, tomfool, unearthly
Yep, I’d say that just about sums up the entire 7+ years of the Bush administration.
August 5th, 2008 at 12:40 pmJMOHR Says: So I am sorry for the attack since I really do respect you. However, we are in a knife fight and we really need to recognize that fact.
But it’s a knife-fight democrats must fight with one hand tied behind their backs: an electorally weak majority, that alone cannot successfully push for impeachment. When Clinton was impeached, he had few democratic supporters in the house and senate, because he’d been exposed lying to them about his consensual sexual exploits. Bush doesn’t have that problem, because republicans think if he lied, it must have been for a good cause, so they aren’t about to join the democrats in impeachment. This is political reality. All the talk of weak dems just obscures this fact. This is the hand we’ve been dealt. Now, you can go on badmouthing the dems all you like, but without that solid majority in both houses, it’s just talk, ungrounded in political reality.
August 5th, 2008 at 12:45 pm“This is political reality. All the talk of weak dems just obscures this fact. This is the hand we’ve been dealt.”
I just don’t personally accept that as an excuse for not even trying.
What indication have they given to their base that they’re even concerned about bringing justice to the Administration?(I’m open to hearing any, not just a snarky rhetorical question).
August 5th, 2008 at 12:58 pmIn honor of Lucille Ball’s birthday tomorrow — I am not reading anything remotely political. Sometimes I feel like my head is going to explode: everything from Abramoff to Zion.
I just need a break. See you folks on Thursday.
peace,
August 5th, 2008 at 1:03 pmKay
666lattes Says:
I don’t take the anger personally. I understand it and have plenty of my own. I am not any happier with the democratic party than you guys, I am however, terrified of the republicans.
This is an emotionally charged time. We have a black man running for president. Do you think the bigots are going to let this happen peacefully?
I totally agree with you on this JMOHR. We had a good campaigner in Clinton but poor bill was human and it cost us all. He was however, not evil.
By the way, all the tough talk and saying the right things and calling the republicans on thier bs does absolutly no good if it is not reported……people only hear what is allowed on thier tv. This is a problem that the democrats could fix if they had the upper hand….fairness doctrine.
I agree with most sentiment here that politicians are bought and paid for, I am not niave. It is much worse in our America since raygun released the lobbyists. Now our democracy is truly for sale to the highest bidder, another thing we need to push our democrats to fix after we wrest power from the crime cabel.
I still contend that we don’t stand a chance to change things though unless we get these republicans out of power. The democrats are the only opposition with a chance of doing that, that is the reality that we must live with.
Changes to the democratic party will not be made on the national stage, it will be done by dedicated progressives in local communitites around the country…..I am one of those agents for change but first we must change the overall direction that we are headed. First things first.
Peace to all. I understand your pain and anger.
August 5th, 2008 at 1:04 pmbarfly,
Good points about impeaching the President, now why is Karl Rove not in jail?
August 5th, 2008 at 1:05 pmGolly gee whiz Wally, really? The WHIG needs to be strung up on the White House lawn.
August 5th, 2008 at 1:10 pmrocks911 Says:
barfly,
Good points about impeaching the President, now why is Karl Rove not in jail?
Jeebus, do I really have to point out that Rove is Bush’s brain; that republicans view him as merely a political extention of their beloved president?
If you go after Rove, you’re merely attacking the president by the backdoor?
August 5th, 2008 at 1:54 pm.
Doan: “I don’t recall”
Gonzales: “I don’t recall”
Rumsfailed: “I don’t recall”
Cheney: “I don’t recall”
Rice: “I don’t recall”
Tenat: “I don’t recall”
THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION:“I DON’T RECALL“
What will the history books ever recall…
August 5th, 2008 at 1:59 pmbarfly,
He’s in contempt of Congress.
There is actually a process involved here, outside of loathing the president he’s not in contempt, Rove is. There is a process that the Democrats refuse to apply and that only serves to subvert our coequal branches of government.
It has nothing to do with dubya, it has to do with the lack of follow through with oversight. The Democrtas dont deserve the position, and history will be unkind as it should be to these lap dogs.
August 5th, 2008 at 2:02 pmI love the smell of medals of freedom in the morning…especially any issued by BushCo.
First the Niger forgery, which was revealed as a forgery before Bush launched the March 2003 invasion of Iraq.
Now another forgery from later in 2003.
Sounds like bookends to me, with the same lie about a connection between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda being offered, as well as the bogus claim that Saddam Hussein was seeking yellow-cake uranium from Niger.
The intense level of denial by BushCo indicates to me that Susskind’s information is correct.
August 5th, 2008 at 2:04 pmCan we impeach now, Ms. Pelosi?
August 5th, 2008 at 2:05 pm666lattes Says:
I just don’t personally accept that as an excuse for not even trying.
What indication have they given to their base that they’re even concerned about bringing justice to the Administration?(I’m open to hearing any, not just a snarky rhetorical question).
These are mostly professional politicians, who know electoral reality. Congressional inquiry is good at finding evidence, but without a solid majority, anything they find, they can’t act on.
Which is more damaging politically: trying and failing - and thereby showing just how little power they really have to affect change, or not attmpting anything until they have an unassailable majority? Both methods show political weakness, but one is born of political reality, while the other is a child of political perception.
Being a member of the reality-based legion, I acknowledge facts on the ground, not pie in the sky.
August 5th, 2008 at 2:05 pmNancy Pelosi: IS THIS NOT A CRIME????
August 5th, 2008 at 2:16 pmHe’s in contempt of Congress.
There is actually a process involved here, outside of loathing the president he’s not in contempt, Rove is. There is a process that the Democrats refuse to apply and that only serves to subvert our coequal branches of government.
It has nothing to do with dubya, it has to do with the lack of follow through with oversight. The Democrtas dont deserve the position, and history will be unkind as it should be to these lap dogs.
And without republicans to help, it’s doomed to failure, much as Watergate would have failed, were it not for members of Nixon’s own party, telling him it was over, and that he should resignfor the good of the country, and his party.
It has everything to do with W! The repubs know they’re about to be sent to political Siberia, yet they persist in supporting the administration. They do so, because they know they will be even more politically disenfranchised with their constituents, should they jump ship, and support the contempt citation. If there’s one thing republican voters despise, it’s a turncoat.
August 5th, 2008 at 2:17 pmThere is a process and you don’t seem to understand how it works very well. It requires a supermajority to get anything done.
Another thing you say is:
What the heck do you mean by that? Of course it has everything to do with dubya.
Think of it like this, a white supremist is charged with killing a black man. His jury is all white and fellow klan members. Will he be convicted? No, justice does not always prevail.
We have to give up this anger and vendictiveness and the search for justice where none will be forthcoming.
All we can do is change the way things are and blaming the democrats for the crimes of the republicans will not help.
Calling the democrats lapdogs is making them equal to the republicans who activly support anything bush wants. They are not equal and if you think they are happy about the current balance of power then you are very shortsighted and that is the kind of thinking that will keep the republicans in power.
August 5th, 2008 at 2:23 pmFred, they’re still in the anger and denial stage.
It appears you and I alone have moved on to acceptance.
Strange bedfellows eh?
But “acceptance” doesn’t mean aquiessence. Never forgive, and never forget.
August 5th, 2008 at 2:44 pm“claims”!!
OK, now how about something called…”PROOF”?????????
Oh sorry I forgot! All libs have to do is CLAIM something and it’s REAL!!!
August 5th, 2008 at 3:14 pmOh sorry I forgot! All libs have to do is CLAIM something and it’s REAL!!!
Like how Neo-Cons ‘claimed’ there was a link between 9/11 and Saddam and the Iraq war went from ‘nightmare’ to ‘reality?’
August 5th, 2008 at 3:22 pmbarfly Says:
“Both methods show political weakness, but one is born of political reality, while the other is a child of political perception.”
I want to believe that what you’re saying is true, but I just haven’t seen any reason to believe that they’re serious about any accountability. It seemed more to me that they took Impeachment off the table because they were afraid of what happened to the Republicans when they tried to impeach Clinton and it mostly back-fired.
The Democrats holding back does seem like a play for perception, to me. I hope that they’ll take their role more seriously when given the majority, but they need to do a little more to shore up my support and faith in them to do so. What have you seen/heard that leads you to believe that they plan on taking accountability seriously?
I keep being told not to worry… just look forward and ignore all of the corruption so that we can move ahead as a country, but I don’t think we can move forward as a nation without looking back and correcting all (or at least most) of this. They seem to be afraid of the perception that it would be simply to score political points and appear to have no regard for the actual rule of law that needs defending.
“These are mostly professional politicians, who know electoral reality.”
I don’t think they could really know the electoral effects of asserting accountability over this Administration because they haven’t even tried. What they’ve been doing hasn’t been working as you can see from the polls of approval of Congress. Yes, the Dems rank slightly better, but Pelosi was praising the 20% approval rating only because it’s better than the Republican’s, but it’s still so utterly pathetic. I believe that the country would be behind them once the facts were laid out for all to see, but they just won’t allow it to happen. They just keep letting outrage after outrage build up against the Republicans, but aren’t doing anything of substance about it. They are using it all for political points and don’t seem to be taking any of it seriously and this is what is hurting them.
You say that you think it would be worse if they tried and were ineffective, but I disagree. I think that they appear far weaker for not trying. If they did try, it would at least be obvious that the hold-up is with the Republicans which would give them far more ammo and the electorate far more reason to give them a solid majority.
I also consider myself a member of the reality-based legion, however, I do not see how doing the job that they were elected to do could be considered “pie in the sky”. If so, then why did they run on “pie in the sky” 2006?
As far as Fred and “lapdogs” go, the simple fact is that the Democratic controlled congress has given Bush things that he couldn’t get from Republicans (FISA telecom immunity etc.) It seems that the Republicans still have more control over what gets passed and that the Democrats are not even trying. It’s just been pathetic and I think that too many supporters are giving them the benefit of the doubt with nothing to base it on.
I’m going to vote Democratic, but I don’t see anything wrong with holding them accountable. What’s to stop them from getting too complacent, and not following through on anything, if we all just sit back and simply hope they do the right thing? I’m just not buying it.
August 5th, 2008 at 3:32 pm