AT&T Throws ‘Exclusive Party’ For Blue Dog Democrats Who Helped Pass Retroactive Immunity
AT&T Throws ‘Exclusive Party’ For Blue Dog Democrats Who Helped Pass Retroactive Immunity
The telecommunications giant AT&T is “virtually everywhere” at the Democratic convention this week, “wining and feeding delegates and members of Congress with a relentless schedule of luncheons and evening celebrations.” The Texas-based company threw a special party outside the Mile High Station for its biggest supporters:
On Monday, AT&T threw an exclusive party for the Blue Dogs, the House’s moderate and conservative Democrats, at the historic Mile High Station in downtown Denver. Among the guests was House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, D-Md., who in June led Blue Dogs in crafting a compromise bill that shielded telecommunications companies from lawsuits arising from the government’s terrorism-era warrantless eavesdropping.
Hoyer spokeswoman Stacey Bernards said Hoyer was not aware of any connection between the party and his work on the legislation.
“I’m sure Mr. Hoyer didn’t even know who the sponsor was,” she said.
Leading the Blue Dog Democrats, Hoyer was “the point man” in negotiations over the new FISA law that Congress passed and Bush signed last month. He helped secure retroactive immunity for the telecommunications companies (including AT&T), thereby condoning their participation in Bush’s illegal spying program.
The president paid “special tribute” to Hoyer for his work in passing the legislation. While Sen. Russ Feingold (D-WI) called the legislation “one of the greatest assaults on the Constitution…in the history of our country,” Hoyer heralded it as a “significant victory.” And he has earned the telecommunication companies’ special thanks this week at the DNC convention.
AT&T is also a major donor to the Republican convention next week, where it will also host a series of events.
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Watch out , If you even touch this you’ll be labeled a concern troll.
August 27th, 2008 at 12:45 pmRetroactive immunity is UNCONSTITUTIONAL !!!!!!!!!!!
August 27th, 2008 at 12:47 pmwho is above the law ?
If we had astute media, among tomorrow’s headlines would be: Hoyer Spokesperson Says Hoyer an Idiot
August 27th, 2008 at 12:48 pm“I’m sure Mr. Hoyer didn’t even know who the sponsor was,” she said.
He just saw the $100 a plate dinner and wandered in….
August 27th, 2008 at 12:48 pmfreeman, you concern troll!
lol
August 27th, 2008 at 12:48 pmEvery ‘Blue Dog’ DemoRAT should be voted OUT the next time they’re up for re-election.
Retroactive immunity is unconstitutional and immoral.
August 27th, 2008 at 12:49 pmMaybe when the elections are over it will be alright to ask what happened to our constitution , till then it’s half time and all about the cheerleaders and marching bands .
August 27th, 2008 at 12:51 pmI’d like to see a list of the Blue Dogs.
This is the same issue that saw Obama’s ratings begin to decline.
Bottom line: AT&T has enough money to buy both sides off.
August 27th, 2008 at 12:52 pmfreeman, as I understand it immunity protection is only for civil action because you’re right, immunity from criminal prosecution wouldn’t pass court review; even right wing judges would laugh at such a concept.
August 27th, 2008 at 12:53 pmThank you russ feingold , chris dodd, robert wexler and dennis kucinich , you are the only democrats attending the convention . I salute you !
August 27th, 2008 at 12:53 pmHow are we supposed to gain a filibuster proof majority with people like Hoyer around?
August 27th, 2008 at 12:53 pmThank you Faiz for covering this – this story needs a lot more exposure.
August 27th, 2008 at 12:57 pmUtter corruption: Blue Dog Dems and AT&T reward each other for committing crimes against the U.S.
August 27th, 2008 at 12:58 pmAs i understand it , without impeachment there will be no criminal charges it,as bush (and cheney) can not be brought up on any charges for crimes committed while the sitting president without it. Obama’s waffling on FISA was a major mistake among those who should be his greatest supporters and the logic escapes me in terms of his campaign .Did he pick up many votes through his breaking of a pledge as a candidate pursuing his parties nomination aside from a few telecom executives ?
August 27th, 2008 at 1:00 pmI think not .
Is russ feingold a troll ?
August 27th, 2008 at 1:01 pmDitto faiz , and thanx for all you do.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:02 pmHouse Majority Leader Steny Hoyer
House Majority TRAITOR.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:05 pmCavjam #9 but with the teeth removed from the law the best we will get to do is gum them to death.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:05 pmHEY FREEMAN — YOU arrogantly waltzed into an earlier thread proclaiming TP needed a hall monitor. “Bully now, act like a victim later” is a good republican tactic, something you should know.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:07 pmWars … if you have so much venom for a fellow progressive I’m sure you’ll do alot to convince others or bring the undecided hillary supporters around to your way of thinking by name calling .
August 27th, 2008 at 1:16 pmCivil discource and informed commentary are better ways to bring others around to your perspective than insults .
The strengths of your arguments are all you should need .
Among the guests was House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, D-Md., who in June led Blue Dogs in crafting a compromise bill that shielded telecommunications companies from lawsuits arising from the government’s terrorism-era warrantless eavesdropping.
Who says you can’t find good help these days. The telecoms certainly got their money’s worth.
http://progressiveworldreview.com
August 27th, 2008 at 1:17 pmYou keep talking about it……waiting to see something from you besides…..”are you going to call me a troll just because I act like one”
August 27th, 2008 at 1:21 pmfreeman Says:
Watch out , If you even touch this you’ll be labeled a concern troll.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And freeman repeats the refrain WAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH
August 27th, 2008 at 1:22 pm.
Watch Amy Goodman’s report…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anuwTWyqjvE
The age of Corporatism has arrived.
Fascist R USA!
.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:22 pmUncle Ho Says:
Every ‘Blue Dog’ DemoRAT should be voted OUT the next time they’re up for re-election.
Retroactive immunity is unconstitutional and immoral.
They are all up for reelection because they are all congresspersons. We will see if their constituents are mad enough at them to send them packing. I’m betting they don’t, though since most come from pretty conservative states.
All I want for the new Congress is for them to kick Reid, Pelosi and Hoyer to the curb and put in some real liberal representation. They have all been a miserable failure in their respective positions.
I found out yesterday that the 75 bills Coburn has a hold on is all a “courtesy”. There is nothing in the constitution or rules of the Senate that allows a Senator to block a bill like this. It’s up to the Senate Majority Leader to decide whether or not to honor the hold. Apparently Reid only honors Republican holds because the one time a Democrat put a hold on a bill, Reid ignored the hold and brought it to the floor where it was immediately “filibustered”. I put “filibuster” in quotes, because Reid has not had the courage to make the Republicans actually filibuster any bill. Thom Hartmann had it right when he said the new Senate Majority Leader (he’s assuming Reid will be gone) should announce that if the Republicans want to filibuster a bill, they better get out their porta potty’s and the phone book, because they will have to actually filibuster any bill they want to block. Wouldn’t that be grand!
August 27th, 2008 at 1:22 pmfreeman Says:
Retroactive immunity is UNCONSTITUTIONAL !!!!!!!!!!!
who is above the law ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That is certainly my understanding maybe we are misinterpreting Post ex facto
August 27th, 2008 at 1:23 pmit’s really great to see this story getting the proper send up here,
giant red headline, all the background and topical history all
laid out for an easy read…
gawd, the truth is sickening at times…
but, thank you, Faiz!
August 27th, 2008 at 1:25 pmI would also like to thank Faiz (Thank you Faiz!) for this thread.
I feel strongly that these so-called Blue Dogs are undermining the Democratic Party, have too much influence on party policy and represent a threat to what used to be the core beliefs of the party.
Maybe I’m old-fashioned but I still cannot believe how many Democrats voted to fund the Iraq war for example.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:27 pm.
R E M E M B E R:
IT TOOK A DEMOCRATIC MAJORITY TO PASS THE NEW IMPROVED FISA…
… Where your ability to seek Civil Justice should your privacy is violated, warrantlessly, has been denied! Thanks Democrats!
.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:27 pmTanqueray Says:
Is it too soon to start IMPEACHMENT proceedings against Obama for his support of FISA? Is it on the table yet? He has destroyed the constitution.
Impeach Barry America!!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Tank weighs in again doing his duty as a moron assimilated into the hivemind. Your ignorance is a stench to the board
August 27th, 2008 at 1:27 pmThat’s a heck of a prediction but I predict that it is wrong. Obama and all enablers should and will feel the weight of what they have done on this issue just as Bilbo Baggins points out, but it won’t change the election.
In fact most people outside the blogosphere are not even that aware of it.
What are you left with quido?
August 27th, 2008 at 1:30 pm“Off with their heads!” The Red Queen said.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:30 pm“I’m sure Mr. Hoyer didn’t even know who the sponsor was,”
Yeah, right….and I am actually Daryll under another name….
…looks like the Blue Dogs are easily bought and paid for by AT&T for pay back favors.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:31 pm.
When the Rights of Corporations trumps those of the People…
When The People’s elected Officials ignore their oath…
When Congress sells The People’s Rights out…
IT NO LONGER IS A GOVERNMENT OF, FOR AND BY THE PEOPLE!
.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:31 pmfreeman Says:
Wars … if you have so much venom for a fellow progressive I’m sure you’ll do alot to convince others or bring the undecided hillary supporters around to your way of thinking by name calling.
Civil discource and informed commentary
And what do either of the above have to do with you? You have shown neither.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:31 pmOr for telecom immunity.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:32 pm.
When and IF the Supreme Court rules of the warrantless immunity as being an unconstitutional act against the Republic, what does it make the lawmakers who passed said legislation?
.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:33 pmIt is beginning to look like freeman has gotten into RepublicansHateFacts’s secret stash today.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:34 pmTanquera likes to think he might be on good enough terms to use a name that Barrack reserves for friends. Oh that tang had just one friend.
There will be consequences if they don’t reverse this asap but first we have to get him in the white house.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:35 pmthose that know me are few
August 27th, 2008 at 1:35 pmthose that abuse me are honored
the sage wears rough clothing and holds the jewel in his heart.
Tao te ching
.
Amy Goodman interviews Glenn Greenwald…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC2ZTAKU_XA
Democrats know who’s sponsoring who.
And so does The People.
… Unfortunately, there is a vast majority of the People’s Representatives who have FAILED to FAITHFULLY do so, instead turning to support the violations of Constitutional Rights of The People.
Support and defend… my AS&!!!
.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:38 pmObama will not beat McCain because of his reversal on retroactive ummunity. Obama kicked America on the teeth and I washed my hands of him and the Democrats.
If you washed your hands of Obama, are you saying McCain will do you better? You’re kidding, right? Your other alternative is to move to Canada.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:39 pm11. Even if the Democrats had a 90 to 10 majority in the Senate, I would think they would cower before the 10 GOP senators for fear of looking un-American, unpatriotic, or like terrorist sympathizers.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:40 pmAugust 27th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
#freeman Says:
As i understand it , without impeachment there will be no criminal charges it,as bush (and cheney) can not be brought up on any charges for crimes committed while the sitting president without it.
Fortunately for us, concerned troll, you are wrong. The Obama administration can bring criminal charges against anyone they want in the Bush Crime Family. Hopefully he will go after each and every one of them to the full extent of the law. If he doesn’t, Pandora’s box will remain forever open.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:43 pmI always thought the Tao a shallow pool, try the Blue Cliffs record
August 27th, 2008 at 1:45 pm#Guido the Loving OBGYN Says:
I’m guessing the margin that Obama leads McCain is less than the percentage of people who say they will vote for Obama when in fact they will not. Obama should be blowing McCain away right now. He is not. Epic fail.
We don’t know that he’s not. The polls are being manipulated because the pollsters want to take as many polls as they can to continue to rake in the big bucks. Whose going to ask for weekly polls if the margin is a blowout.
The other thing that you and many other doom sayers don’t take into affect is that the polls can’t take into affect the fact that the Democrats outvoted the Republicans 4-1 in the primaries. If they do that in the General, it will indeed be a blow-out of epic proportions. So enough with the negativity.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:46 pmObama should be blowing McCain away right now. He is not. Epic fail.
Do we have a PUMA on our hands? If so, you do know that Senator Clinton further devalued your stock last night, right?
August 27th, 2008 at 1:47 pmFred,
There will be consequences if they don’t reverse this asap but first we have to get him in the white house.
and we will do that by name calling and insulting other progressives and hillary supporters ?
August 27th, 2008 at 1:50 pmIn an operation where the patients life is at stake , perhaps a blunt instrument is not called for .4 million people a month read this blog , you think I’m the only one here who find the vulgarities divisive ?
I’ve spent 2 1/2 years attempting to chronicle the destruction of our democracy by the neo cons , which are very well represented in the mccain political machine and laying the charges of treason and war crimes at the feet of this administration and I’m a troll ?
I’m not just singling you out fred , if I have been unkind I ask your forgiveness , but still maintain that if we resort to the same bad behavior that is so well displayed on the other side of the aisle than we become no better than those we are opposing , no matter how good a reason we seem to have to to so .The arguments are not advanced by lack of civility no matter how good it feels at the time.
Max-1 Says:
R E M E M B E R:
IT TOOK A DEMOCRATIC MAJORITY TO PASS THE NEW IMPROVED FISA…
… Where your ability to seek Civil Justice should your privacy is violated, warrantlessly, has been denied! Thanks Democrats!
Actually Max, you are wrong. The new FISA bill put warrants back into the hands of the FISA court where they belonged. It does NOT give the government the right to spy on you without a warrant.
Giving the telcoms immunity, on the other hand, was a real bummer and something that will forever haunt Barack Obama.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:51 pmWe need to send a strong message to the Democratic Party by supporting a third party candidate or the Republican candidate in Hoyer’s district. Hoyer deliberately delayed legislation granting immunity until after the primaries were completed. This ensured that he and blue dog Democrats would win reelection since nearly all incumbents who survive the primaries are successful. This would create a “significant emotion experience” for the Party and, especially, Speaker Pelosi.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:52 pmfreeman Says:
Please stop whining. Quote where I have been guilty of what you constantly accuse me of or stfu.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:53 pmWars
August 27th, 2008 at 1:53 pmHillary supporters are not the enemy and Obama will never be elected without them or the for that matter the progressive community.
Divisiveness is counter productive .
Well fred lets start with STFU , does that seem to you a friendly remark.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:54 pm53. freeman Says:
Nothing as usual. Go away freeman. You have nothing to contribute here. You sound just like RHF. Hey, did RHF finally get banned?
I am sick to death of former Hillary supporters acting like they were mistreated by Obama supporters. Apparently they have amnesia when it comes to remembering all the vitriol they aimed and are still aiming at Obama and his supporters. Both sides went over the top during the very emotional primary. The Obama people have pretty much gotten over their anger at how they were treated. The Hillary people, on the other hand, seem to want to keep this feud going until hell freezes over. That is why I question whether people like this current troll were ever Hillary supporters in the first place. My bet is that the only reason why they supported Hillary was because they figured she would be the easiest one to beat in the General.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:55 pmAnd according to a number of bloggers, a lot of the ‘guests’ were trying to sneak in and out and not be seen or identified. And what’s this stuff about “I’m sure Mr. Hoyer didn’t even know who the sponsor was,”…
Hoyer and his staff think we’re stupid! IF we are to believe that, it says even more about Hoyer.
But then WE already knew that. And I will at least give Nancy one thing; She had her problems with Hoyer even before she was elected Speaker and she was absolutely opposed to him being picked as Majority Whip because she didn’t trust him. This would be an example of why.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:55 pmThis is a big hammer which the gop has used relentlessly to advance their agenda in a criminal way.
Although it does not justify or excuse it, it does explain some of the votes that we don’t agree with.
Security is still a huge issue in America and it’s all the republicans have unless we can take it away from them, then they will have nothing.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:56 pmfreeman Says:
Wars
Hillary supporters are not the enemy and Obama will never be elected without them or the for that matter the progressive community.
Divisiveness is counter productive .
Once again, you are wrong. You are not a former Hillary supporter, otherwise you would be voting for Obama. Did you miss her speech last night?
Besides, we don’t need you and your ilk. Obama will have more than enough votes when the time comes. The Democrats outvoted the Republicans 4-1 in the primaries. If they do that in the general, it’s going to be a rout.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:56 pmPlease, you wanted it, you begged for it. You don’t even see the irony of it and you want to tell me that you are here for a serious discussion?
August 27th, 2008 at 1:59 pmAm I the only one who remembers that St. Barry, the Changer, promised to filibuster any bill in the Senate containing ‘retroactive immunity’ for the Telcos?
Yeah. Back in the old days, in 2007, September, iirc, he pledged that he’d go to the wall to prevent enactment of “any” immunity agreement in the Bill.
Remember?
No? Well, this is Murka, after all: The Alzheimer’s Nation…
August 27th, 2008 at 1:59 pmBilbo Hussein Baggins,
Immunity granted for what…? Getting warrants?
I THINK NOT!
Yes, the legislation puts the FISA court in charge of reviewing the warrants it receives, however this new and improved legislation also grants immunity to Corporations that spy on The People, warrantlessly. In effect, the president can order Telecoms to circumvent the FISA courts and there is nothing We, The People can do about it. And what the FISA court doesn’t know, THEY WON’T KNOW!
.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:59 pmNo I prefer Obama hands down to hillary but as with many other progressives I feel very let down with his FISA vote . I will be , as the campaign signs in my yard indicate be voting for him in any case because I prefer not to die in a nuclear war under a mccain presidency.
August 27th, 2008 at 2:05 pmMy ilk ? On the one hand I have my redneck neighbors telling me to leave the country because of my left wing politics and on the other your insulting me because I want the democrats to step up to the plate and restore the constitution and disavow corporate money.
“Security is still a huge issue in America and it’s all the republicans have unless we can take it away from them, then they will have nothing.
Murkins, the average, domesticated, cud-chewing, ruminant variety, slagged with Survivor on HDTV, Bud-Lite and Dominos, care only that their comfort not be disturbed…
August 27th, 2008 at 2:06 pmDid Nancy Pelosi jump out of a cake?
August 27th, 2008 at 2:07 pm“… Civil discour[s]e and informed commentary…”
yea… i’m wondering if i should take down my latest bumper sticker:
These days there are
2 Kinds of Republican Voters:
Millionaires & SUCKERS
…
August 27th, 2008 at 2:07 pmfreeman Says:
Wars
Hillary supporters are not the enemy and Obama will never be elected without them or the for that matter the progressive community.
Divisiveness is counter productive .
That’s why the Obama campaign has appealed to them. That’s why Hillary has slowly but successfully pushed for unity, and has gotten us past the unusual acrimony of the primaries.
That’s a broad derivative in saying “Hillary supporters are not the enemy.” Members of the democratic party at this point in our history who pledge to vote for McCain are the enemy, since they’re antithetical to Senator Clinton’s calls for party unity.
How many more rounds of “I’m the victim” will you play today?
Vitriol here is appropriate outrage. You want real vitriol? Scan redstate.
August 27th, 2008 at 2:07 pmFred,
Which works in your favor:
Using a gun to defend yourself, or a Law that says you may possess a gun and use it?
Being safe and snugly at night or being given a Lawful avenue to redress privacy violations?
They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security.
Benjamin Franklin
And I say, those that refuse to defend their essential Liberty never deserved it.
Fred,
We happen to think you deserve it.
YOU?
.
August 27th, 2008 at 2:08 pmTreason and war crimes aren’t a serious enough reason for a discussion Fred .How about divisiveness and it’s effect on the comng elections or the effectiveness of the progressive communties ability to get out it’s message .
August 27th, 2008 at 2:08 pmFrom your link: He pledged to support any fillibuster. There was none. Any democrat could have fillibustered it but not one single one of them did. Why, I don’t know.
I would love to know but I don’t think it was because they thought it was a good idea. More likely politics of this era….remember who has been in power?
If we don’t get to the root of the problem by getting rid of the republicans then this will continue. savvy?
August 27th, 2008 at 2:09 pmVitriol is divisive , counter productive and a very blunt instrument when applied to the rest of the voting population.You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar , or so goes the colloquialism.I am glad you are so confident of winning this election that you are not worried about alienating hillary supporters for instance or other progressives .I am not so sure I share your optimism and wonder if it wouldn’t be more prudent to attempt to gain their support.
August 27th, 2008 at 2:14 pmFred,
August 27th, 2008 at 2:14 pmActually Dodd and Feingild wanted to, but one can not filibuster in the Senate WITHOUT 40 other Senators supporting you. Remember the “it takes 60 votes in the Senate”…? THIS is what they mean.
Well, this thread is going to go to 400 but I have to go.
Please help us get rid of the real criminals and replace them with people we can infuence.
I agree with punishing those who supported the telecom immunity too but I want the republicans out of power and then we can begin to change the way things are done.
if we do that we can do something about the votes for sale lobby system, bring back the fairness doctrine, save our country. If not then all is lost. Be careful what you wish for.
August 27th, 2008 at 2:15 pmgot honey?
I no longer believe that you are a progressive at all. You have sucessfully convinced me that you are here to disrupt and divide and this thread was a gift from heaven for you.
August 27th, 2008 at 2:18 pmFred,
The Corporations are in the lead of the “INFLUENCE” department.
I prefer electing Representatives that Faithfully support and defend the Constitution without mental reservations or a purpose of evasion. Because if they did just that, the Constitution would be their only influence…
But that’s just me.
August 27th, 2008 at 2:19 pmFred ,
Please help us get rid of the real criminals and replace them with people we can infuence.
I was hoping you would share my remorse for the acrimony it’d disempowering and we need ALL the votes we can get .
August 27th, 2008 at 2:20 pmAgreed ?
Sure fred , my saying mccain will cause a nuclear war and that the neo cons in his administration have committed documentable treason and war crimes is somehow good for the mccain camp .
August 27th, 2008 at 2:22 pmfreeman Says:
I am glad you are so confident of winning this election that you are not worried about alienating hillary supporters for instance or other progressives .I am not so sure I share your optimism and wonder if it wouldn’t be more prudent to attempt to gain their support.
There’s a difference between holding your hand out and asking someone if they would like to come aboard and kneeling down and kissing someone’s feet. I get the impression that for some Hillary supporters there is literally nothing that will please them.
I personally find both Hillary and Barack too centrist. But I also think that we need to all get behind the Democratic nominee, which appears to be Barack.
August 27th, 2008 at 2:26 pmfreeman Says:
Vitriol is divisive , counter productive and a very blunt instrument when applied to the rest of the voting population.You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar , or so goes the colloquialism.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
And being boring on a message board is the ultimate sin REPENT SINNER. We actually read you the first thirty times or so you posted this. The Democratic Party is FAMOUS for their intaparty squabbling then they get over it. I suggest YOU get yourself a job as a schoolmarm if this pious scolding you keep droning on about is attractive to you.
August 27th, 2008 at 2:30 pmMary
August 27th, 2008 at 2:35 pmI personally find both Hillary and Barack too centrist. But I also think that we need to all get behind the Democratic nominee, which appears to be Barack.
ditto
The Blue Dogs are now the Azure Chupacabras. Corporate payolla is goat’s blood.
August 27th, 2008 at 2:38 pmVitriol is divisive , counter productive and a very blunt instrument when applied to the rest of the voting population.You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar , or so goes the colloquialism.
Karl, Mitt, and Rudy didn’t ride into Denver to spread honey.
August 27th, 2008 at 2:40 pmHey have at it if it makes you feel good about yourself but I believe it is doing great damage to the progressive message and the effectiveness of this site.
August 27th, 2008 at 2:40 pmstateofthedivision Says
Karl, Mitt, and Rudy didn’t ride into Denver to spread honey.
The days of polite discourse are pretty much over. Rove made sure of that. It’s not effective if we counter their hard ball with a nerf ball. It’s time for Democrats to take off the gloves and get bruised and dirty!
August 27th, 2008 at 2:46 pmWould y’all please refrain from calling these democrats ‘blue dogs’.
August 27th, 2008 at 2:58 pmIt reflects poorly on the rest of us blue democrats, and the dogs don’t like it either.
Mahatma gandhi and martin luther king played hardball too but refrained from lowering themselves to their opponents level . Treason , destruction of the constitution , and warcrimes are pretty hard ball . Insults ,name calling and personal attacks are weak at best.
August 27th, 2008 at 3:02 pmThe democrats best weapon is the words and deeds of republican party , the neo conservatives thirst for war abroad and their wholesale attack on the constitution of the United States at home.
Truth is a powerful weapon .Tell the truth democrats and inform the American public on the state of their democracy under the neo conservatives .
Mary says:
I personally find both Hillary and Barack too centrist.
Me as well, I was a Kucinich supporter.
Unfortunately the last president that could actually be called a “liberal” in the real sense of the word was Theodore Roosevelt, and even he was further to the right than I like on a lot of the issues. Almost every other president since him has actually been centrist or right of center in reality.
Even Clinton was more right of center, yet the Republinuts called him a liberal because he was still left of their Hitleristic world views. While Clinton was a fairly good president, his welfare “reform”, the DMCA act and many other things were corporate or right winged whoring.
This Country needs a real liberal president and congress elected eventually to stop the slide of “center” further and further towards totalitarianism.
Our “Center” would be considered right wing in most European countries.
August 27th, 2008 at 3:04 pmThis is a bit cynical by the telecoms. But FISA was about protecting the White House from jail and giving McCain a chance. Nobody in bushco cared about the telecoms, except for their ability to bury him.
August 27th, 2008 at 3:05 pmThe Republicans do not play “fair”. We need to fight back agressively with a sense of urgency. This fight is for keeps. When the Repblicans pull us into their nastiness we cannot stand back saying, “Eeew, that’s nasty!”. We have to deal with the nastiness and play to win.
Hopefully we can avoid using “insults,name calling and personal attacks” but, on the other hand, if that’s what it takes to win I don’t think we can afford to get all queasy about it.
If you, freeman, say that the Democrats’ best weapon is the “words and deeds of the republican party” then how to you propose using those weapons exactly?
August 27th, 2008 at 3:11 pmFred says,
I no longer believe that you are a progressive at all. You have sucessfully convinced me that you are here to disrupt and divide and this thread was a gift from heaven for you.
Oh no Faiz is a troll ?
August 27th, 2008 at 3:11 pmI quess anyone here that criticizes anything about the democrats is to be insulted off the site .Democracy does need any more robots fred , but it does need progressives and even the supporters of Hillary clinton to assure it’s healthy return.
Wayne Says:
Our “Center” would be considered right wing in most European countries.
That’s for sure!
People like Rove have managed to turn the word “liberal” into an egregious insult. As I’ve been saying, we need to fight back and in this case perhaps that means our own little campaign to turn the word “republican” into a dirty word. As in, “You’re not a REPUBLICAN are you?!” and say it with a look on your face that says something smells really bad.
I’m tired of liberals being afraid to proudly say that they are liberals. I’m tired of being portrayed as weak. We need a P/R campaign that portrays liberals as the brave ones, the ones willing to consider the world in shades of grey, the ones willing to sacrifice a little if it helps out the guy over there, the ones willing to educate themselves on issues rather than going the easy route with knee-jerk responses. The ones who are willing to do the work it requires to tackle our challenges.
August 27th, 2008 at 3:20 pmMary,
August 27th, 2008 at 3:25 pmVery good question , I think that giving any republican voter you know a copy of Pat Buchanan’s article last week entitled “McCains’s neo con war monger and none dare call it treason ” is a good idea .( this is what earned me my new title in the first place , I beleive )
Using the American bar assoc’s task force publication on Presidential signing statements is another and pointing out the facts of what has gone on without the knowlege of the American people .
Lies which have taken the lives of more than a million people,and left 4 million refugeed ,
The instability of the Mid east as a result of neo cons push to go to war for an enemy that advocated in a signed letter to Bill Clinton 4 years before 911 it wanted to remove inorder to control world oil .ect .
Faiz and TP have published a stream of very good articles ( without profanities ) on the crimes of the neo con’s whom are well invested in the mccain campaign , over the last few years .Maybe Obama should seek out their advice instead of appeasing the center .
Link Mccain to the neo cons and it is very likely that even staunch republicans will have a hard time voting the party line.
freeman Says:
——————————————————————————–
Mahatma gandhi and martin luther king played hardball too but refrained from lowering themselves to their opponents level . Treason , destruction of the constitution , and warcrimes are pretty hard ball . Insults ,name calling and personal attacks are weak at best.
The democrats best weapon is the words and deeds of republican party , the neo conservatives thirst for war abroad and their wholesale attack on the constitution of the United States at home.
Truth is a powerful weapon .Tell the truth democrats and inform the American public on the state of their democracy under the neo conservatives .
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I watched a DECADE of that advise play itself out when the Limbaughs and Coulters STARTED the flaming. Dems took the high road pointed out the lies and twisting of the facts and didnt fight fire with fire. That didnt work out to well for us. It got us labelled as weak. It got us portrayed as not having principles. So feel free to do what YOU think is best. As far as I am concerned I have seen what happens when you turn the other cheek to a bully, they smack that one too and keep pumelling you till you fight back. Its time to fight back. That doesnt preclude us from pointing out the disaster that the GOP is when they actually try to govern, nor does it stop us from telling the truth but when they lie, when they distort when they attack, hide under your bed if you want. For ME I am fighting back. I tried your way for quite a while and watched wingnuts become emboldened and nastier. The wingnuts dont WANT us fighting back its why they started the meme about the left being haters because they SO preferred when THEY had the exclusive franchise on vitriol. I think the American people overall arent that interested in politics and never really have been. They pick a side and see what they can do then if they dont like it they see what is out there but dont usually get all that enamored of policy. They want to see you CARE that you are willing to fight. Your advise is the rightwings fondest wish, it is a prescription for political suicide. Take the draught if that is what you want but you arent going to convince me to join you on the ash heap
August 27th, 2008 at 3:49 pmI also advocate fighting believe me , but name calling and insulting potential allies on this blog site is not an effective way of doing that .Save the venom for the opposition .
August 27th, 2008 at 4:13 pmMany posters here are generally unhappy with the democrat’s performance over the last 2 years but are far more unhappy with the republicans. Ron Paul and bob Barr’s candidacy is also proof that republicans are unhappy with their own party as Pat Buchanan’s articles are also proof of and the neo conservatives which still have a hold on it .
In Aikido you use your opponents weight against him and this opponent is ripe for a fall. Faiz and TP have done a great job of fighting without the gloves on for the past 3 years without resorting to name calling and adolescent bullying .
It’s hard to seem articulate if you use a profanity every 2nd word.
The truth will set you free.
August 27th, 2008 at 4:16 pmfreeman Says:
The truth will set you free.
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How would YOU know you wouldnt recognize the truth if it bit your sack. Keep advising us to take a knife to the ongoing two decade long gunfight I will pass. Nothing about passing on political suicide however stops us from telling the truth. In fact its part of the package.
August 27th, 2008 at 4:49 pmfreeman Says:
I also advocate fighting believe me , but name calling and insulting potential allies on this blog site is not an effective way of doing that .Save the venom for the
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Did you think you were telling me anything I didnt already know? I went to an Aikido studio for a taste but preferred my San Soo Kung Fu. I thought it had a better philosophy of defense. More aggressive. I am not dabbling in the infighting between the Obama and Clinton people. Again this kind of infighting has been seen before. The left thinks for itself. If THAT is your point fine I dont care but you seemed to come in whining about the tone of the posts in a thread about the GOP comparing the Dems to communist North Korea. I was a Kucinich guy. I like Obama better than Hillary basically because he is more liberal but was always going to vote for whoever had the D by their name mostly because the Republicans have gone insane. I have zero venom for Clinton or Obama supporters. What I am saying is when the RIGHTWING comes with their clockwork and constant attacks I AM FIGHTING BACK PERIOD
August 27th, 2008 at 4:56 pmEugeneDebs Says:
I AM FIGHTING BACK PERIOD
I’m with you!
In an ideal world I’d love it if we didn’t have to get nasty but if it takes a brawl to get to the White House then so be it! It’s on baby! Those right-wingers who think that all liberals are ‘vegetarian sandal-wearing, prius-driving’ wusses haven’t met me! (Not that there’s anything wrong with vegetables, sandals or priuses mind you)
August 27th, 2008 at 5:12 pmWell, it does appear that freeman is delighted to be the center of attention…
August 27th, 2008 at 5:25 pmmary Says:
EugeneDebs Says:
I AM FIGHTING BACK PERIOD
I’m with you!
In an ideal world I’d love it if we didn’t have to get nasty but if it takes a brawl to get to the White House then so be it! It’s on baby! Those right-wingers who think that all liberals are ‘vegetarian sandal-wearing, prius-driving’ wusses haven’t met me! (Not that there’s anything wrong with vegetables, sandals or priuses mind you)
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I have to admit I love my Birkenstocks. Doesnt mean I can’t or wont throw down.
August 27th, 2008 at 5:25 pmFred Says:
Guido the Loving OBGYN Says:
Obama will not beat McCain because of his reversal on retroactive ummunity. Obama kicked America on the teeth and I washed my hands of him and the Democrats.
That’s a heck of a prediction but I predict that it is wrong. Obama and all enablers should and will feel the weight of what they have done on this issue just as Bilbo Baggins points out, but it won’t change the election.
In fact most people outside the blogosphere are not even that aware of it.
What are you left with quido?
I think Guido is a Constitutionalist, as I am. When did “Progressives” think the 4th Amendment to the Constitution could be hammered? Obama is a sell out, and the country is being taken down a path while smiling and dancing.
When I hear Ed “Blowhard” Schultz saying, “Obama did it to not give ammunition to the right”, my skin crawls. Will the Left sell out the Constitution to get anyone in other than McBush? Will the Left OK taking on Russia since Obama lied about that? Why did Obama run to AIPAC the day after he accepted the nomination? Joe Biden is a big surveillance freak.
Of course, McNuts is worse, but stop with the Obama The Savior crap. Obama’s ratings fell right after his vote on 4th Amendment destruction, and even a 5 percent drop could be dangerous. Obama supporters have stars in their eyes, and refuse to see these things.
August 27th, 2008 at 6:17 pmBrain From Planet Arous Says:
No, we have sand in our eyes from our so called progressive brothers doing all they can to keep us from moving forward.
Forward is forward. If you can’t see that a vote for anyone other than obama at this point is going backwards then you don’t understand the definition of a conservative which as FDR put it is “a man with two perfectly good legs that refuses to walk forward”
The whining is starting to hurt my ears. Are you guys all alcoholics? Do you not understand that you must change the things you can and acknowledge the things you can’t?
Until you guys come up with a viable alternative to the duly elected nominee to the democratic party as a solution for your gripes then I just can’t take you seriously.
August 27th, 2008 at 9:59 pmFred Says:
No, we have sand in our eyes from our so called progressive brothers doing all they can to keep us from moving forward.
Forward is forward. If you can’t see that a vote for anyone other than obama at this point is going backwards then you don’t understand the definition of a conservative which as FDR put it is “a man with two perfectly good legs that refuses to walk forward”
The whining is starting to hurt my ears. Are you guys all alcoholics? Do you not understand that you must change the things you can and acknowledge the things you can’t?
Until you guys come up with a viable alternative to the duly elected nominee to the democratic party as a solution for your gripes then I just can’t take you seriously.
I love how “Progressives” like their Conservative Brethren/Sisters always label anyone an alcoholic, idiot, whatever that dares to point out how rigged the system is. The left loves to refer to Bill Clinton as a great president and the right gives praises to GW Bush. They both are globalists, corporatists, and warmongers. Obama sounded good until he started kissing AIPAC, Telecom, and Military-Industrial butt. You can spout all you want about “change”, but for this time, I will most likely vote with conscience instead of getting kicked in the stomach or punched in the head, and then vote for the one who kicked me in the stomach.
When you finally see that both parties are simply two sides to the same Corporate, Globalist, Military Coin, then perhaps there will be a chance for the USA to show its true Constitutional Colors.
Right now, Obama is another phony, with a VP who is a self-proclaimed Zionist and Surveillance advocate, as well as shutting Scott Ritter up and advocating invasion of Iraq BEFORE Bush and Cheney.
By The Way, the first change a person can make is to not accept in themselves, the attitude that one can’t change certain things. We can always move to Norway or Sweden. IT really is pitiful that the Pravda has more freedom than American media.
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