Hannity: No One At Fox News Has Ever Accused Obama Of Being A Muslim
Hannity: No One At Fox News Has Ever Accused Obama Of Being A Muslim
Last night on Fox’s Hannity and Colmes, right-wing host Sean Hannity angrily insisted no one at Fox News had ever insinuated that Obama was a Muslim. When his guest said that McCain did not “accuse [Obama] of being a Muslim,” Hannity jumped in: “Neither has anyone on Fox.” Watch it:
In fact, it was Fox News who originally gave a national voice to the whisper campaign about Obama’s religion. Last January, Fox’s Steve Doocy triumphantly declared that Obama “was a Muslim…raised as a Muslim, went to a madrassa.” He described the madrassa as “financed by Saudis, they teach this Wahhabiism, which pretty much hates us.” “The big question,” Doocy wondered, “is was that on the curriculum back then?”
What’s more, Hannity’s show has given ample airtime to Jerome Corsi, author of a factually inaccurate smear book about Obama, to repeatedly raise questions about Obama’s religion. Just last month on Hannity’s show, Corsi said, “When he [Obama] says he has never had Islamic instruction, that’s not true.” Watch it:
As Brave New Films has documented, Fox constantly raised questions about whether Obama is or was a Muslim — and it continues to do so. Just this summer, Laura Ingraham insinuated that Obama’s father being a Muslim was enough to prove the case: “I mean, because if your Jewish, your mother is Jewish, you’re considered Jewish, right?” she said. In June, Fox host Brit Hume used an unsubstantiated news article to declare that although Obama says he is a committed Christian, “Obama’s half brother is not so sure.”
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Fat, nauseating white men lying. It must be Fox.
September 9th, 2008 at 12:10 pmHmmmm. I think if anyone at FUX told the truth, their heads would explode – sort of like matter/anti-matter.
September 9th, 2008 at 12:11 pmSince when has Faux news has been truthful about ANYTHING?
Faux News = the Josef Goebbels Memorial Propaganda Ministry.
September 9th, 2008 at 12:12 pmFaux News –> Where the dervishes only spin the news to the right!
September 9th, 2008 at 12:13 pm“What do you say when caught in a lie?” asked the FOX exeuctive.
“Slime and innuendo, whoa! Not me!” said the interviewer to Roger Ailes.
“You’re hired…”
September 9th, 2008 at 12:13 pmDoocy wondered, “is was that on the curriculum back then?”
– - Geeze, proofread, spellcheck much?
September 9th, 2008 at 12:13 pmCan anyone explain how being a Muslim , which OBAMA IS NOT , makes a damn bit of difference , anyway ?
Has Representative Keith Ellison , a MUSLIM from the great state of Minnesota , been secretly aiding al Qaeda or the Taliban ?
And the GOP/Chimpy leg humpers here keep claiming that Christianity is persecuted ; wake up , shut up , and get a clue…….
September 9th, 2008 at 12:14 pmThese subhumans at Faux are the scum of the earth, may they get a vile sickness that rots their f’n faces off.
September 9th, 2008 at 12:15 pmAmericans would be better served wondering if their GOOP nominee is white, privileged and out-of-touch, with special interests running his campaign.
September 9th, 2008 at 12:20 pmYou want to see Little Seanie Hannity’s explode?
Just wait until someone “accuses” Failin’ Palin of being a Pentacostalist.
September 9th, 2008 at 12:22 pmHand Job is pretty clever for a high school graduate.
September 9th, 2008 at 12:23 pmCorrection:
You want to see Little Seanie Hannity’s head explode?
Just wait until someone “accuses” Failin’ Palin of being a Pentacostalist.
September 9th, 2008 at 12:23 pmMan, Obama needs a new set of surrogates. These guys STINK sticking up for him. It seems like a pretty obvious and easy answer to anytime shout out “Doocy” or Hannity’s infatuation with Corsi when Hannity makes these kinds of claims, which he does day after day, that ohhhhh, no one here at Fox or McCain’s camp would EVER stoop to such low tactics, never ever, ever!
September 9th, 2008 at 12:24 pmA(nother) pox of bedbugs on FOX’s house!
September 9th, 2008 at 12:25 pmToo bad Sarah Palin isn’t the Liar that Sean Hanratty is. Yet.
Scarier still – they’re all teaching their kids to lie as much as they do.
September 9th, 2008 at 12:26 pmNot sure. I’ll have to check with Glenn Beck. I believe Rep. Ellison was supposed to get back to him on that…
September 9th, 2008 at 12:31 pmThis is why America is in decline. The win at any cost, jock/cheerleader mentality that brought us the canary of Columbine is spreading through our society and is becoming prevelant.
September 9th, 2008 at 12:31 pmHannity: “No One At Fox News Has Ever Accused Obama Of Being A Muslim”
Many, however have accused Sean Hannity of being a lying sack of shit!
September 9th, 2008 at 12:32 pmWhy shouldn’t they lie? They have no scruples anyway, and their core audience either doesn’t know the difference, or doesn’t care, when they lie.
September 9th, 2008 at 12:36 pmMCMetal Says
September 9th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
Can anyone explain how being a Muslim , which OBAMA IS NOT , makes a damn bit of difference , anyway ?
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Maybe the alarmists are afraid that Muslims are too conservative? After all, Muslims tend to be anti-alcohol, anti-gambling, anti-gay, anti-abortion, pro-faith, pro-prayer, pro-family, and pro-personal responsibility. You’d think the rabid right would be embracing them.
September 9th, 2008 at 12:38 pmWhy shouldn’t they lie….there are no consequenses for it. Same with the gop in general. If they can lie and get away with it, why shouldn’t they continue?
September 9th, 2008 at 12:39 pmNo one there is a republican or promotes that party in a biased way, either. ‘Terrorist fist jab’ could’ve been describing any prez candidates that bumbed fists, right? It just happened to be the black democratic candidate, no religious implication there. The American dream is to own so many houses that you forget exactly how many you own, right? They didn’t need to have a brain-storming session to come up with a way to defend McCain for that, it’s so obvious.
September 9th, 2008 at 12:41 pmIf Fox is pressed on this issue (which I’m sure they won’t be), they will parse the word “accuse” and claim that all the blatant implications and insinuations aren’t the same as “accusing”.
Of course, this will have about the same credibility as when Bill Clinton tried to explain his sex life.
September 9th, 2008 at 12:42 pmMCMetal: Has Representative Keith Ellison , a MUSLIM from the great state of Minnesota, been secretly aiding al Qaeda or the Taliban ?
Ellison HAS to be a secret AQ operative because the Bush administration only tells us about terrorists that AREN’T secret AQ operatives! As soon as the DHS announces that Ellison is in league with AQ we’ll know that he in actual fact he isn’t–becasue that’s how things have worked out so far. a terrosist!
September 9th, 2008 at 12:43 pm.
FOXPRAVDA… Tabloid T.V. at it’s most fairly imbalanced.
.
September 9th, 2008 at 12:44 pmdoh!
# 25 is a snark and accidentally posted before completion!
September 9th, 2008 at 12:44 pmA republican prerequisite; the bigger the lie, the longer it can be maintained, the higher you will rise. Lying is life to these people.
September 9th, 2008 at 12:44 pmExactly right, Verbal. We struggle to rebut flat-out lies that are easily refuted, but they’re only refutable if both parties agree to certain ground rules governing objective reality.
For me, the most penetrating insight into the way these people think was the exchange reported by Ron Suskind in 2004:
It says so much about the disdain for objective reality that floats their world view.
Their attitude toward falsehood is just a derivative of this philosophy. If it serves its purpose, or if it is effective, then it’s justified, and objections are just “petty”.
Utterly psychopathic.
September 9th, 2008 at 12:47 pmDon’t forget faux news invented the “terrorist fist tap.”
September 9th, 2008 at 12:48 pmI would like to oufit the lying pukes at Faux News with a shock collar and everytime they lie, hit the bastards with a jolt. Keep increasing the amps until their ears are smoking and their eyes bulge.
Put an end to that shit in a hurry wouldn’t it?
September 9th, 2008 at 12:50 pmLaura Ingraham insinuated that Obama’s father being a Muslim was enough to prove the case: “I mean, because if your Jewish, your mother is Jewish, you’re considered Jewish, right?” she said.
This is so….oh , it’s not worth it!
September 9th, 2008 at 12:51 pmMCMetal Says:
Has Representative Keith Ellison , a MUSLIM from the great state of Minnesota , been secretly aiding al Qaeda or the Taliban ?
___________
Not that I’ve heard… but I feel safe saying that BotchCo has aided Bin Ladin immeasurably in his recruiting goals around the world…
September 9th, 2008 at 12:52 pmtombaker Says:
Scarier still – they’re all teaching their kids to lie as much as they do.
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Straussian real-politik at its finest, tom… the ends always justify the means…
September 9th, 2008 at 12:54 pmI believe the correct nomenclature is “Terrorist Fist Jab™”
September 9th, 2008 at 12:55 pmFred Says:
VerbalKint Says:
Why shouldn’t they lie? They have no scruples anyway, and their core audience either doesn’t know the difference, or doesn’t care, when they lie.
Why shouldn’t they lie….there are no consequenses for it. Same with the gop in general. If they can lie and get away with it, why shouldn’t they continue?
right said fred
September 9th, 2008 at 12:55 pmMaybe the alarmists are afraid that Muslims are too conservative? After all, Muslims tend to be anti-alcohol, anti-gambling, anti-gay, anti-abortion, pro-faith, pro-prayer, pro-family, and pro-personal responsibility. You’d think the rabid right would be embracing them.
Interesting list of qualities.
Since this list of qualities applies to a large percentage of the people in the world – there are about 1B Muslims, which Muslim nation, or which nation where the preponderance of belief is Islam, do we think the U.S. would do well to emulate?
September 9th, 2008 at 12:56 pmYou know, I think Hannity is one of the most disgusting cockroaches alive..he does 3 hrs of non stop obama bashing every blessed day… I can’t stand to look at that bastard..I just can’t believe people are that stupid to listen to his propaganda.
September 9th, 2008 at 12:58 pmralph the wonder llama
Yep. And it just shows the 18%ers that a little “terrorist” lives in all of us.
.:fist jab:. my man.
September 9th, 2008 at 1:00 pmMention InSannity & Trolls crawl out of the woodwork like roaches.
Hate Radio lies for a living. They are overpaid & over-rated.
If Hannity is Mr. American Family Values, why does he spend 7 days a week, 8-12 hours/day away from his family?
September 9th, 2008 at 1:02 pmEveryone at FAUX News should receive religious training. Then maybe they’d realize that Islam is not hereditary. But stupidity is…
September 9th, 2008 at 1:06 pmO.k., we know FOX is the worst network ever invented. But I read somewhere where more people trust CNN for fair and balanced coverage. Not FOX or MSNBC. However, I stopped watching CNN at least a year ago. They are a major right wing republican cheerleader, they just package it better so most can’t tell.
September 9th, 2008 at 1:09 pmIf you’ve noticed, the week after the Republican convention CNN (virtually 24 hours a day) ran clips of McCains and Palins speaches (along with others). After the Democratic convention, most of the air time was spent criticizing the democratic message.
FOX is a piece of sh** and everyone knows it, CNN is too, but is masquerading as fair. Many people avoid MSNBC even though they back up with facts.
This election is freaking me out. How are people going to vote when they don’t care to be educated? Will there be enough votes to sway the democrats way after the right wing has stolen as many votes as possible?
If the Obama campaign would grow some, I’d donate today.
Fox has tried to paint Obama as a Muslim.
This seems to be the game plan. Each party isn’t really interested in the truth. The plan is to demonize the opponent at all costs. At all costs, has come to include fabrication.
Fox definitely does it to Obama. Progressives definitely do it to McCain and Palin.
It’s not about the truth. The higher calling for partisan’s is not truth, but victory.
There’s a lot of ammunition to address, just on the issues.
Obama’s vision of who should be paying the taxes, vs. McCain’s. Obama’s budget priorities vs. McCain’s. Obama’s views on abortion vs. Palin’s. Obama’s worldview vs. McCain’s. Obama’s vision of the middle east vs. McCain’s. Obama’s energy plan’s vs. McCain’s. You get the idea.
Put, where we often go is this: Obama’s a muslim. Or he’s the anti-Christ. Or he’s in league with domestic terrorists. Or he thinks there are 57 states. Or McCain wants the war in Iraq to last 100 years. Or Palin’s son isn’t really hers. Or McCain thinks the threshold for wealth is 5 million dollars a year.
It’s noise that the partisan leaders of each movement wants us all to promote and believe. At the expense of what’s really important. The issues.
It’s not about the truth.
September 9th, 2008 at 1:11 pmNon-interesting non-response from bitblt.
The poster pointed out the striking similarities between the values embraced by fundamentalist Christians and fundamentalist Muslims. bit ignores this point and struggles to redirect.
bit must be unwilling to discuss the original point.
September 9th, 2008 at 1:14 pmFairly cogent anlysis, backup.
However, in establishing your convenient moral equivalency, you kind of gloss over the fact that it’s not only Faux News and right-wing commentators who have abandoned the Truth in this campaign; so have the Republican candidates themselves.
That should concern voters like you and me who care about the Truth.
September 9th, 2008 at 1:18 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
.
.
.
Since this list of qualities applies to a large percentage of the people in the world – there are about 1B Muslims, which Muslim nation, or which nation where the preponderance of belief is Islam, do we think the U.S. would do well to emulate?
.
.
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Non-interesting non-response from bitblt.
The poster pointed out the striking similarities between the values embraced by fundamentalist Christians and fundamentalist Muslims. bit ignores this point and struggles to redirect.
.
.
.
September 9th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
That question was the comment on the similarities,… and the differences. The attributes of the believers are so similar but the faiths are so different. The nations influenced by these two faiths are very different.
bit wonders why. Doesn’t RTWL wonder why?
September 9th, 2008 at 1:22 pmtom Says:
You want to see Little Seanie Hannity’s explode?
Just wait until someone “accuses” Failin’ Palin of being a Pentacostalist.
The Democrats need to get an ad together now showing Sarah Barracuda talking at her pentecostal church and listing the church’s beliefs, especially about Jews. Then they need to run the ad continuously in Florida.
September 9th, 2008 at 1:25 pmI’m a critic of Islamic fundamentalist intolerance. I’m also a critic of fundamentalist Christian intolerance.
It’s ironic that many fundamentalist Christians are the most ardent opposition to Islamic fundamentalists, when the two groups have much in common.
I saw an interview of an Arab man on CNN today. The story was about the resurgence of tourism in Lebanon. It’s a paraphrase, but the man said something like this:
“I love Lebanon, because it offers more freedom. If you don’t bother other people, you can get what you want.”
Religion offers something of importance to humanity (maybe some comfort or hope, although, I don’t get it). But, the monotheistic tendency to impose that belief on to others, whether they want it or not, seems to me the biggest impediments to real liberty that we have.
September 9th, 2008 at 1:27 pmBackup, that’s very idealistic, and the way it would be if the process worked correctly. However, it doesn’t. Please don’t compare the Obama campaign to the McCain campaign. One is built on what can be achieved, the other is built on fear and lies. Simple but true. The Republicans don’t have any issues to run on, they didn’t in 2004 (and Bush lied through his teeth in 2000).
September 9th, 2008 at 1:27 pmThe whole culture of the Republican party is based in deciet.
ralph. There has been a growing truth deficit. I have been relatively impressed with Obama’s effort to try to stay above it. (He’s obviously not perfect). I hope that he can stay the course in terms of his relative honesty. I also hope that if he does, that attempt to be more forthright, doesn’t cost him in the election.
September 9th, 2008 at 1:30 pmbitblt Says
September 9th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Since this list of qualities applies to a large percentage of the people in the world – there are about 1B Muslims, which Muslim nation, or which nation where the preponderance of belief is Islam, do we think the U.S. would do well to emulate?
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Huh? You’re making the assumption that if we elected a Muslim to high office that we would be required to emulate a different country? This makes about as much sense as us having to emulate Vatican City upon electing John F. Kennedy.
But since you are making this rather bizarre point, let’s go with it for a second. The rabid right wants us to be a theocracy, and would prefer that anyone who doesn’t embrace their ideology step to the sidelines and become invisible (or better yet, just disappear altogether). They would like to see all laws reflect their interpretation of the Bible, and they would like to see the U.S. Constitution conform more to God’s word (I believe Huckabee even made that last point one of the planks in his platform).
I believe there are indeed a few Islamic theocracies out there that the right-wingers might be interested in using as their model.
However, this is the United States of America. A country founded on the idea of liberty and personal freedom. I have yet to meet a Muslim in this country (and yes, I know quite a few American Muslims) who doesn’t cherish the opportunities in this country and value their freedoms as much as any other American.
My point is that conservative Muslims have much in common with conservative Christians. I made no such suggestion about emulating a Muslim theocracy, and that had nothing to do with my point. But I will point out that the Americans who are fighting for theocratic rule are Christian evangelicals.
September 9th, 2008 at 1:32 pmMCMetal Says:
Has Representative Keith Ellison , a MUSLIM from the great state of Minnesota , been secretly aiding al Qaeda or the Taliban ?
September 9th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
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No, but he did help get Amy Goodman released from jail last week.
September 9th, 2008 at 1:48 pmmisshusseinmolly Says:
Maybe the alarmists are afraid that Muslims are too conservative? After all, Muslims tend to be anti-alcohol, anti-gambling, anti-gay, anti-abortion, pro-faith, pro-prayer, pro-family, and pro-personal responsibility. You’d think the rabid right would be embracing them.
Anyone can say they are against alcohol and gambling, but almost no one is lobbying to shut down casinos and ban alcohol. How about pro-family values? I would like to see someone stand up for bringing back wholesomeness to primetime television, or for making women’s and girls’ clothing more modest.
Maybe the only fear is of people who actually would put their ideologies into action (whoever those people may be).
September 9th, 2008 at 1:50 pmbitblt Says:
That question was the comment on the similarities,… and the differences. The attributes of the believers are so similar but the faiths are so different. The nations influenced by these two faiths are very different.
bit wonders why. Doesn’t RTWL wonder why?
September 9th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
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ht wonders why. But ht is pretty sure that the primary driving forces are culture, geography, and economics, rather than religion. The Muslim World is not a monolith, and neither is the Christian World, which is why countries influenced by Christianity can be as varied as the United States and Germany and Kenya and Georgia, and why countries influenced by Islam can be as varied as Mali and Indonesia and Kazakhstan and Saudi Arabia.
The faiths of Islam and Christianity are more similar than you think. Yes, there are some rifts in doctrine and dogma, but the fundamental messages at the heart of both religions is the same.
September 9th, 2008 at 1:57 pmI think it may be a bigger insult to accuse someone of being a xtian.
September 9th, 2008 at 1:59 pmWell said, Toasterhead!
September 9th, 2008 at 2:06 pmScaryBrownHusseinChick (ThinkOutsideTheBush) Says
September 9th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
Maybe the only fear is of people who actually would put their ideologies into action (whoever those people may be).
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You raise an excellent point — one I hadn’t thought of. There are far too many people who are like a dog chasing a car — they wouldn’t be all that thrilled if they actually captured the target of the chase.
No, far more profitable to wail like a stuck pig and create boogeymen in order that they can serve up red meat on a regular basis to keep their base energized. And this is the basic business plan of Fox News.
September 9th, 2008 at 2:09 pmNo, far more profitable to wail like a stuck pig and create boogeymen in order that they can serve up red meat on a regular basis to keep their base energized. And this is the basic business plan of Fox News.
Bingo!
Once again, misshusseinmolly nails it. I would submit the stuck pig is the Republic Party & the boogeyman is Rove, Hannity, Limbaugh.
Fear is the mind killer -Frank Herbert / Dune
September 9th, 2008 at 2:15 pmRadical Islamic fundamentalist, radical Christian fundamentalist…
WHAT’S THE DIFFERENCE?
None. They’re all crazy, intolerant, God-smacked nutjobs.
September 9th, 2008 at 2:16 pmmisshusseinmolly Says:
There are far too many people who are like a dog chasing a car — they wouldn’t be all that thrilled if they actually captured the target of the chase
… And this is the basic business plan of Fox News.
September 9th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
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Case in point – the Fox Network. What happens to the racy reality shows on Fox when Fox News succeeds in putting social conservatives into the White House and FCC and Supreme Court?
September 9th, 2008 at 2:18 pmhussein toasterhead Says:
Case in point – the Fox Network. What happens to the racy reality shows on Fox when Fox News succeeds in putting social conservatives into the White House and FCC and Supreme Court?
A new reality show that will feature Supreme Court justices in a hot tub?
September 9th, 2008 at 2:28 pmThe faiths of Islam and Christianity are more similar than you think. Yes, there are some rifts in doctrine and dogma, but the fundamental messages at the heart of both religions is the same.
bit takes it that hussein toasterhead classifies himself as neither Christian nor Muslim.
This remark reeks, at least to bit, of too much diversity and too much tolerance. Otherwise, how could ht be so wrong about his assertion that “…the fundamental messages at the heart of both religions is(sp) the same…?” What fundamental messages are alike?
John 3:16 says you have to believe in Jesus to be saved. This is personal salvation through a personal saviour. Neither personal salvation nor a personal saviour are features of Islam – as far as bit knows.
Nonetheless, you make a good point about the different nations and different beliefs.
Taking Germany for example, doesn’t it seems that the government in Germany is more like the government in the U.S. than it is like the government in Saudi Arabia?
Would you consider that with the influence of Christianity you’re more likely to get a democratic, representative government than you would with the influence of Islam?
September 9th, 2008 at 2:35 pmI believe that the time that humanity is outgrowing monotheism is approaching. Just as we outgrew polytheism 1500-2000 years ago.
That being said, the religions have performed a function in organizing the world. And bitblt makes a point.
For whatever reason, Christianity enjoys close ties with the ideals of democracy.
I don’t know why that happen. Christian nations seem to be the most democratic.
But, of course, I’ll listen to those that disagree.
September 9th, 2008 at 3:00 pmbitblt Says:
bit takes it that hussein toasterhead classifies himself as neither Christian nor Muslim.
ht classifies himself as a Catholic with strong Unitarian and Bokononist leanings.
This remark reeks, at least to bit, of too much diversity and too much tolerance.
And this remark reeks of the usual hate-filled bigotry ht has come toe expect from bit.
John 3:16 says you have to believe in Jesus to be saved. This is personal salvation through a personal saviour. Neither personal salvation nor a personal saviour are features of Islam – as far as bit knows.
The shahadah, or first pillar of Islam, is a declaration that there is no god but God, and Muhammad is His messenger and servant. In Islam, it is only through absolute belief and acceptance of this statement that one can achieve salvation. In Islam, as in Christianity, your personal savior is God.
Would you consider that with the influence of Christianity you’re more likely to get a democratic, representative government than you would with the influence of Islam?
_________
Nope. Christian countries and Muslim countries are equally capable of democratic leadership. It’s just that most modern-day Muslim countries spent most of their histories under the thumbs of empires and colonialism and globalization. Their efforts at democracy have quite often been thwarted by a resource-hungry West.
September 9th, 2008 at 3:11 pmI think the spread of democracy or republicanism may have been the product of the Reformation. I’d be interested if anyone else has a different view.
Islam seems to be a more communal religion (the initial story is beautiful and less complicated than Christianity, IMO). Less focused on the individual.
September 9th, 2008 at 3:13 pmThey don’t have to say it, to merely suggest it is enough, and thats what they do, just throw out seeds and they grow .
Someone should check Hannity’s little piece of paper he reads from, it probably has official white house logos on it .
September 9th, 2008 at 3:28 pmbackup Says:
Islam seems to be a more communal religion (the initial story is beautiful and less complicated than Christianity, IMO). Less focused on the individual.
September 9th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
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I think the “individual focus” part of Christianity is more of an American value that’s been applied to the religion, rather than the reverse. The teachings of Jesus are quite communal as well, but it seems that this part of His message has gotten diluted by the Evangelical industry.
September 9th, 2008 at 3:29 pmbitblt Says:
This remark reeks, at least to bit, of too much diversity and too much tolerance.
Well, have you considered moving to a less tolerant, less diverse nation? We’ll all be glad to chip for your ticket!
September 9th, 2008 at 3:31 pmtoaterhead. I agree that Jesus was very communal and I agree with the assumption that evangelicals (or some other faction) may have changed the focus.
Maybe related to one or more of the movements within Christianity? I don’t know.
September 9th, 2008 at 3:50 pmbackup Says:
toaterhead. I agree that Jesus was very communal and I agree with the assumption that evangelicals (or some other faction) may have changed the focus.
Maybe related to one or more of the movements within Christianity? I don’t know.
September 9th, 2008 at 3:50 pm
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Possibly, though I think it’s still more of a function of culture and geography. Christianity tended to spread northeast into the agricultural societies of Europe, with its kingdoms and fiefdoms and empires and strong nationalistic identities, and eventually the birth of capitalism and the Industrial Revolution. Islam tended to spread southeast and southwest, into more nomadic and pastoral tribal societies in Africa and Asia and the Middle East, where communalism was necessary for survival. This, to me, accounts for a large part of the difference we see today, not something inherent in the religions themselves. In both cases, the religion morphed to fit the local area, rather than the reverse – that’s why you have Santeria in Caribbean Catholic culture and Animist-tinged Islam in West Africa.
September 9th, 2008 at 4:02 pmScaryBrownHusseinChick (ThinkOutsideTheBush) Says:
September 9th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
A new reality show that will feature Supreme Court justices in a hot tub?
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Ewww…
But I suppose it’s no worse than some of the fare our networks (yes, even the family values ones) put out to make money.
September 9th, 2008 at 4:16 pmtoasterhead. I think both religions are manmade constructs. And I don’t know how it applies, but I get the impression that Christians decided on a hierarchy to spread the religion (each city has a priest, that reports to a state bishop, that reports to the pope in Rome). A good organizational structure to spread and receive information. But a hierarchy.
I think Islam used the Hajj (pilgrimage to mecca). It was a brilliant way to spread the word. Pilgrims from thru out the Muslim world (I don’t know India to Spain?) would travel to Mecca bringing information (culture, technological advances, news, etc) and, of course, valuable trade. They would mix with the other pilgrims from across the world at Mecca. Compare notes and bring that information (and trade) back home. More of a hub and spoke approach – without the hierarchy. I believe that approach led to their relative advancement while Christians stalled out in the middle ages.
I think it’s possible the arrival of new sea craft and over water trade routes towards the end of the middle ages, may have lead to reversal of fortunes of the religions. But, that’s just thinking out loud.
September 9th, 2008 at 4:34 pmbackup Says:
I believe that the time that humanity is outgrowing monotheism is approaching. Just as we outgrew polytheism 1500-2000 years ago.
That being said, the religions have performed a function in organizing the world. And bitblt makes a point.
For whatever reason, Christianity enjoys close ties with the ideals of democracy.
I don’t know why that happen. Christian nations seem to be the most democratic.
But, of course, I’ll listen to those that disagree.
September 9th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
“I don’t know why that happen.”
bit has an idea as to why that happened.
It’s a simple idea because it’s the results of influence of perhaps one story, repeated over and over, but it’s .
a complex idea because the influence of this story has been so far reaching.
Use one image to focus this idea. It’s the image of Moses the Lawgiver on the façade of U.S. Supreme Court building.
According to the Old Testament Moses received the ten commandments from God on Mt. Sinai, but before that Moses had been in charge of leading the ancient Hebrews out of Egyptian bondage.
Remember this exodus from Egyptian bondage is one of the most recurring themes of the OT.
Likely every founder of the U.S. read this story from the OT when they were learning to read. The concept of freedom is so embedded in this account that it’s impossible to miss. What’s more in the OT account God made his people free.
Further, early primers from the late 16xx to the late 18xx taught by using stories from the Bible. Generations of American have been imbued with this Biblical account of a people being free because they relied on God.
September 9th, 2008 at 5:25 pmbit. It’s interesting. I’ll have to think about it. But, if it was due to Moses, why was it Greek pagans that came up with the idea in the first place. And why did Christian Europe wait until the 18th century to truly embrace it.
Emperors? Feudalism? Doesn’t fit.
September 9th, 2008 at 5:44 pmbackup Says:
bit. It’s interesting. I’ll have to think about it. But, if it was due to Moses, why was it Greek pagans that came up with the idea in the first place. And why did Christian Europe wait until the 18th century to truly embrace it.
Emperors? Feudalism? Doesn’t fit.
September 9th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
ht has pointed out somethings that are worth noting. For instance, early Islamic people were nomadic. bit believes he’s read someplace that part of the respect nomadic people had for books – nomads don’t tend to carry books – is expressed in the Quran phrase “people of the book” to mean Jews and Christians, who had religions books. You move around a lot and you don’t want to carry heavy books.
So to attempt an answer to your question: “And why did Christian Europe wait until the 18th century to truly embrace it?” When did books become readily available and wide spread?
That’s the simple answer to a very thoughtful question?
Another attempt at a simple answer might be this. For much of Europe’s history the church and the government were very intertwined. U.S. Constitution’s First Amendment says the government is not going to influence religion. bit believes that since the founders believed that the predominant religion in the U.S. would always be Christianity, the First Amendment is a one-way street. Government would not influence religion, but religion was expected to influence government. bit believes this because some of the early state oaths of office required the oath taker to affirm he was a Christian, and some oaths note that government leaders are accountable to God.
September 9th, 2008 at 5:58 pmbackup Says:
bit. It’s interesting. I’ll have to think about it. But, if it was due to Moses, why was it Greek pagans that came up with the idea in the first place. And why did Christian Europe wait until the 18th century to truly embrace it.
Emperors? Feudalism? Doesn’t fit.
September 9th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
As to the Greek pagans coming up with the idea, bit takes it that you mean the the idea of a representative democracy.
This very well may be the source idea of the government under which we live, but for implementation it apparently needed an ancillary idea.
Try this quote from Benjamin Rush-someone important in the early republic.
“Useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty.”
Apparently founder Rush believed only well-behaved people could maintain a republic.
All behaviour is based on belief.
You might search http://www.wallbuilders.com for the date of the quote.
September 9th, 2008 at 6:05 pmhussein toasterhead Says:
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September 9th, 2008 at 3:11 pm
bit respects ht understanding.
The shahadah, or first pillar of Islam, is a declaration that there is no god but God, and Muhammad is His messenger and servant. In Islam, it is only through absolute belief and acceptance of this statement that one can achieve salvation. In Islam, as in Christianity, your personal savior is God.
However, does ht have a reference to any Islamic document which says this:” In Islam, as in Christianity, your personal savior is God.”
If fact does ht have any reference to any Islamic document that uses the word “salvation”?
Nope. Christian countries and Muslim countries are equally capable of democratic leadership. It’s just that most modern-day Muslim countries spent most of their histories under the thumbs of empires and colonialism and globalization. Their efforts at democracy have quite often been thwarted by a resource-hungry West.
But, that doesn’t seem to be what has happen, does it?
Is it safe to assume that ht doesn’t believe that the predominant religion of a nation influences the form of government?
ht classifies himself as a Catholic with strong Unitarian and Bokononist leanings.
This statement makes no sense to bit. It’s a glass of water without the glass. It has no “shape.”
What is Bokononist?
September 9th, 2008 at 6:18 pmbit. obviously tom paine, someone at least as important would have exactly the opposite take as an atheist.
And I’ll have to research it some more, but I believe the French Republic was established without the foundation of religion. I’ve heard a story that French revolutionaries executed clergy and actually took a random hooker off the streets, dressed her in priest garb and put her on the altar of Notre Dame for a mock service.
That doesn’t make it sound like the French thought as Rush did, on the importance of religion as the foundation of a republic.
September 9th, 2008 at 6:46 pmbitblt Says:
However, does ht have a reference to any Islamic document which says this:” In Islam, as in Christianity, your personal savior is God.”
If fact does ht have any reference to any Islamic document that uses the word “salvation”?
The Qur’an says we are saved by a combination of God’s grace and mercy as well as our desire and attempt to do good deeds and be good people.
There is no such thing as original sin in Islam. Everyone is created with a clean soul without stain.
Are you saying that Christians are going to go to heaven just because they believe in Jesus and that whether or not they do any good deeds is irrevelant? So why bother being a good person at all if you are automatically saved?
By the way, Muslims believe in Jesus (peace be upon him) too. No one can be a Muslim without believing in him. Our prophets range from Adam to Muhammad, and include all the biblical figures such as Noah, Moses, John, Abraham, and Jesus (peace be upon all of them).
Why don’t you instead just agree to disagree and walk away? Is it necessary to constantly put down other people’s religion? No one is trying to convert you and you should at least extend the same courtesy to others.
September 9th, 2008 at 7:33 pmScaryBrownHusseinChick (ThinkOutsideTheBush) Says
September 9th, 2008 at 7:33 pm
The Qur’an says we are saved by a combination of God’s grace and mercy as well as our desire and attempt to do good deeds and be good people.
There is no such thing as original sin in Islam. Everyone is created with a clean soul without stain.
Are you saying that Christians are going to go to heaven just because they believe in Jesus and that whether or not they do any good deeds is irrevelant? So why bother being a good person at all if you are automatically saved?
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Unfortunately, there are all too many people who call themselves Christians who completely miss most of what Jesus was about. They focus on John 3:16 (the “salvation” verse) and Leviticus 18:22 (”proof” that God hates gays). Some, like Daryll, also focus on Acts 2:38 (the one about baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit). They don’t focus on anything Jesus actually said or did during His time on earth, and the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus clearly outlined how we should act and treat each other, is completely foreign to them.
They are anxious for a Saviour, but bristle at having a Lord. Because of this extraordinary emphasis on salvation and getting into heaven, they cannot accept that others are God’s people, too. And branding people of other faiths as scary boogeymen gives them some sense of justification for bigotry, something Jesus would never have condoned.
There are many Christians of the world who quietly try their best to live the way Jesus told us to, but they tend to become invisible next to the spectacle of the self-righteous ignorant.
It appears that bitblt is too focused on “salvation” to absorb the concepts that you and toasterhead are pointing out. But I applaud you for trying.
September 9th, 2008 at 7:53 pm