Okay. Ware says that the 30,000 troops weren’t the main cause of the turn around in the situation in Iraq, but only ‘icing on the cake’.

He does recognize the success as being a change in U.S. policy towards engagement with the Iraqis, that happened two years ago, before the surge.

Okay. If we’re using Ware as a credible source, do we acknowledge that even though the additional troops may not have been significant, that there has been a successful turn around that can be attributed to a change in U.S. policy two years ago?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

NO you guys want to redefine a success here. Bush already defined what the surge was supposed to do. There were 18 benchmarks of which lowered violence was only one. Hardly ANY of the others have been reached so NO you dont get to redefine what a success is once the surge has demonstrably failed. IF all we wanted was less violence we didnt NEED more troops all we needed to do was wait till the ethnic cleansing was pretty much finished then start shovelling money to the competing sides to stop publicly slaughtering each other.

But, it was encouraging to see someone make that point, and decry the ineffectiveness of the media, and stick to his guns till they cut the mics.

Plus, it’s not much of an exaggeration to say that I can’t find a single statement in Ms. Palin’s record that I would call “dead-honest”. I’m sure there are a couple I missed in the miasma of crap but, I’m long past caring.

Her record is beyond damning. It’s disqualifying. I wouldn’t trust her to walk my dog and, she will NEVER gain my trust, and anyone who picked her is equally untrustworthy.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/gop_convention_spin_part_ii.html

Here’s what really turned things around:

Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bremmer, suffering from delusional thinking and illinformed arrogance, Made Two Huge Mistakes. They disbanded the Iraqi Military and they disbanded the Bathists.
Without the Military Officers and Bureaucrats to run things…CHAOS Ensued.
The Reversal of these Mistakes by Gen. Petraeus resulted our talking to the Sunni Insurgents and Coopting them. They were ready to talk with our military, because the Shias were ethnically cleansing their Buts right out of Baghdad, and the Sunnis were willing to take American Help.

Al Qaeda’s over the top Violent Methods, mostly killing other Muslims, also Caused the IRAQI Insurgents to turn against these foreigners.

It is a much more complicated situation than McCain’s Simplistic “Victory” rhetoric, but we are where we are because Gen. Petraeus used his Brain, and started TALKING with the Sunnis.

What the

Leaving the country at the request (or by the demands) of a more stable sovereign nation is a better situation than a premature withdrawal during the chaotic lawlessness of early 2007.

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Their parliament originally began asking us to leave, or to set a fixed date for withdrawal, in the spring of 2007. They have the same government now that they had in 2005. The only thing that has changed is that it is election time for them too. So it is now politically expedient for Maliki to take a strong stand against our occupation. Were it not for the election,he would not be asking us to leave. If we stay, we continue to pay for everything and he can keep tossing money into private banks.

However, I was calling for a pull-back to secure bases, eliminating offensive patrols, and taking a supporting position to Iraqi forces since it became apparent we invaded the WRONG EFFING COUNTRY back in 04.

False Debates like:
1. What to do about Saddam’s WMD.
2. What to do about “curveball’s” information which contradicts the inspectors.
3. How do we install Chalabi.

And a couple hundred others up to, and including, Sarah’s ridiculous lies. FACTS MATTER! Debates about imaginary subjects only do more harm. Check out this exchange b-kup.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/09/09/paul-begala-rips-msm-republican-operative-for-flat-out-lying-about-palins-record/

I would just add that it is the democratically elected government of Iraq that is in a strong enough position to make that decision.

Leaving the country at the request (or by the demands) of a more stable sovereign nation is a better situation than a premature withdrawal during the chaotic lawlessness of early 2007.

If the situation is more stable in Iraq, we should withdraw troops. I think the administration has said they support withdrawal based on conditions for quite a while.

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This is no longer our decision to make. The Iraqi government has made it for us. They originally asked for us to be completely out by 2010. The Bush administration pushed for 2015. The Iraqi government compromised at 2011, but stated that our troops will no longer be allowed to patrol Iraqi streets after July, 2009.

Bush announced 8,000 troop withdrawal yesterday, with more to come in 2009.

We should have debate about the causes for the turn around in security, but it is more secure and that situation enables troop withdrawal. Troop withdrawal that progressives have wanted for a long time.

“Because I know that as successful as I believe we will be, and I believe that the success will be fairly easy, we will still lose some American young men or women.” [CNN, 9/24/02]

On November 29, 2002 on CNN’s Late Edition, Sen. McCain said, “We’re not going to get into house-to-house fighting in Baghdad. We may have to take out buildings, but we’re not going to have a bloodletting of trading American bodies for Iraqi bodies….I don’t think it’s easy, but I believe that we can win an overwhelming victory in a very short period of time.”

“But the point is that, one, we will win this conflict. We will win it easily.” [MSNBC, 1/22/03]
Part of an Obama pre-war speech.
In contrast, Obama made a prominent speech around the same time, October 2, 2002, in which he said, “But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history. “I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a U.S. occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of Al-Qaeda.”
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Barack_Obama’s_Iraq_Speech
Who had it right 6 years ago?

John Kerry,

Chris,

After you have been around here a while, you will know that john kerrie is a drive-by troll; he/she/it throws out one post and then slithers off. Any response to it is a waste of time and energy.