ThinkFast: September 15, 2008
ThinkFast: September 15, 2008
Markets sank in Europe and Asia today, stock index futures slipped sharply on Wall Street, and the dollar plunged as two giant investment banks, Lehman Brothers and Merrill Lynch, collapsed over the weekend. Compounding the financial uncertainty, insurance giant A.I.G. “sought a $40 billion lifeline from the Federal Reserve, without which the company may have only days to survive.”
Former Fed chairman Alan Greenspan said the U.S. credit squeeze has brought on a “once-in-a-century” financial crisis that is likely to claim more big firms before it eases. “Indeed, it will continue to be a corrosive force until the price of homes in the United States stabilizes,” Greenspan said.
A new poll released by the AP and National Constitution Center finds “Americans strongly oppose giving the president more power at the expense of Congress or the courts, even to enhance national security or the economy.” Two-thirds of Americans oppose altering the balance of power to strengthen the presidency.
Last week, John McCain claimed that Sarah Palin had never sought earmarks as the governor of Alaska. But state records show that “Palin has asked U.S. taxpayers to fund $453 million in specific Alaska projects over the past two years,” including “more than $130 million in federal funds that would benefit Alaska’s fishing industry and an additional $9 million to help Alaska oil companies.”
On the trail today: Barack Obama will campaign in Grand Junction, CO, and Joe Biden will be in Michigan. McCain is campaigning in Jacksonville, the first stop on a two-day Florida tour. Palin is in Colorado.
The government announced yesterday that “it would not allow Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to pay their departing chief executives the separation payments, known as ‘golden parachutes.’” The decision deprives the departing chiefs of Fannie and Freddie of $9.8 million and $14.9 million respectively.
Before assuming his post as head of Central Command, Gen. David Petraeus drafted “a final letter of thanks” to the troops serving in Iraq in which he “underscored his view that the struggle to bring stability to Iraq is far from over.” In an interview with the Associated Press, Petraeus explained, “You don’t kill or capture your way out of an industrial strength insurgency.”
The location of a Bush fundraising event in Florida has been changed after event planners realized that the original host is under an IRS investigation. The event was originally scheduled to be at the home of John Boswell, whose Boswell House Ministries is undergoing an IRS probe.
Spanish diplomat Francesc Vendrell, “[o]ne of the most experienced Western envoys in Afghanistan,” yesterday said that conditions in that country are at the worst point since 2001. He “urged a concerted American and foreign response, even before a new American administration took office, to avoid ‘a very hot winter for all of us.’”
And finally: Former “Star Trek” crew member George Takei and his partner Brad Altman were “among the first gay couples to get a marriage license” after the California Supreme Court struck down the state’s gay marriage ban in May. Yesterday, the two men were finally married in a “Buddhist ceremony at the Japanese American National Museum in downtown Los Angeles.”
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We watch Lehman Brothers, who will file Chapter 11 today and see a second Wall Street titan 94 year old Merrill Lynch, after a frenetic 48 hours of negotiating, get bought by Bank of America. The collapse of these two Wall Street giants goes back to all the de-regulation and lack of oversight during the Bush presidency.
These two great firms are gone; this doesn’t happen overnight, and George Bush is to blame for all of it. Is it any wonder that McCain and Palin avoid talking about the economy.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:00 amHillary Backing Obama With Gusto
Ever since Barack Obama beat her to become the Democratic nominee, Clinton said she will do what it takes to help him win in November. I don’t think for a second Hillary is going to allow Sarah Palin to become the first female Vice-President.
Vanquished primary candidates usually go home to rest and ponder the high points and lows of their failed effort. Clinton, in contrast, raised more than $4 million for the Obama campaign and repeatedly urged her supporters to campaign for Obama and contribute to his cause. She hosted a reception in Denver for 250 of her donors and is scheduled to be in Chicago tonight for another fund-raising event. She has another fund-raising event scheduled for Sept. 22 in New York City, with the goal of raising $500,000.
In fact, Hillary’s advisors told the New York Times she would do everything she can to help. Mrs. Clinton’s friends said she was galled that Ms. Palin might try to capitalize on a movement that Mrs. Clinton built among women in the primaries. Guy Cecil, the former political director of Mrs. Clinton’s campaign, said it was “insulting” for Republicans to compare Ms. Palin to Mrs. Clinton.
He was very outspoken about Sarah Palin’s inexperience for Vice-President. Mr. Cecil said he believed that the McCain-Palin ticket might initially intrigue some Clinton supporters, but that they would ultimately choose Mr. Obama. “It is insulting to compare Hillary’s lifetime of service and her commitment to progressive causes with that of a novice, right-wing governor,” Mr. Cecil said.
Hillary Clinton is going to fulfill her role, by holding rallies in the major battleground states of Ohio, Florida and New Hampshire. She is going to let her supporters know in her “unique personal way” that the McCain-Palin ticket is wrong for them.
As she said in Denver, “I haven’t spent the past 35 years in the trenches advocating for children, campaigning for universal healthcare, helping parents balance work and family and fighting for women’s rights at home and around the world, to see another Republican in the White House squander the promise of our country and the hopes of our people.”
This presidential campaign isn’t about the “Mommy Wars.” It’s about preemptive war. If Palin needs a refresher course on the “Bush Doctrine” and its consequences in Iraq and elsewhere around the world, Clinton has the benefit of hindsight to make it, woman-to-woman.
They need Hillary to point out that Palin is the wrong woman with the wrong agenda. She will not further the cause on the issues that the Hillary supporters want; Palin will undo all the progress we have made on social issues in this country. I’m really proud of Hillary going out there and letting them know that Obama’s policies are the change this country needs to move forward. Obama also needs her to repeat often what she said to her supporters in Denver: “I want you to ask yourselves: Were you in this campaign just for me?”
September 15th, 2008 at 9:04 amMarkets sank in Europe and Asia today, stock index futures slipped sharply on Wall Street, and the dollar plunged as two giant investment banks, Lehman Brothers and Merril Lynch, collapsed over the weekend. Compounding the financial uncertainty, insurance giant A.I.G. “sought a $40 billion lifeline from the Federal Reserve, without which the company may have only days to survive.”
Black Monday? Thanks Greedy Republican pigs.
Anyone who votes for John McSame is trying to destroy America.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:04 amWho else beleives the that TROOPERGATE is NOT about Wooten having a messy divorce from Palin’s sister, but actually about WOoten ARRESTING track for Vandalizing the buses, which put him in Michigan for his last year of HS, and forced him to enlist in the Army to thwart jail time. He ain’t no patriot.
I love the comment:
“Republican efforts to delay the probe until after the Nov. 4 election were thwarted when GOP State Sen. Charlie Huggins, who represents Palin’s hometown of Wasilla, sided with Democrats. “Let’s just get the facts on the table,” said Huggins, who appeared in camouflage pants to vote during a break from moose hunting.”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/palin_troopergate
About Track’s problem:
September 15th, 2008 at 9:04 amhttp://www.the-peoples-forum.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=4216
The government announced yesterday that “it would not allow Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to pay their departing chief executives the separation payments, known as ‘golden parachutes.’” The decision deprives the departing chiefs of Fannie and Freddie of $9.8 million and $14.9 million respectively.
How the hell can anyone who bankrupts a company think they deserve a mui-million dollar reward in the first place? Appalling.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:05 amCan someone explain to me why, if we only get a very small fraction of our oil from the offshore Texas platforms and refineries, are gas prices a whole dollar higher than they were last week? Did Hurricane Ike hit Saudi Arabia and Canada also?
September 15th, 2008 at 9:07 amunbelievable Says:
Can someone explain to me why, if we only get a very small fraction of our oil from the offshore Texas platforms and refineries, are gas prices a whole dollar higher than they were last week? Did Hurricane Ike hit Saudi Arabia and Canada also?
Stock futures markets, I think.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:10 amGuido the Loving OBGYN Says: Someone needs to tell Obama and the Democrats, who have not denounced Bush/Cheney’s power grabs. Quite the contrary, they have been more than willing to turn a blind eye to their crimes.
They have been denoucing them, it’s just that they don’t surrently have enough veto-proof power to stop them while Bush is at the helm.
Obama has repeatedly said that he will investigate when he has the power to do so, and an AG who can focus on them, and that he will take action based on the findings.
We have to elect him first, and more Democrats.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:14 amThinkFast is quite depressing today — large financial companies biting the dust, McCain and Palin continuing to lie through their teeth, the struggle to bring stability to Iraq is far from over, and conditions in Afghanistan are at their worst since 2001. Score: Bushco = 0.
But it’s good news that Americans seem to be coming to their senses. They have reached their threshold on giving the President more power and on giving CEO failures golden parachutes. Score: American people = 1.
There’s some hope!
September 15th, 2008 at 9:17 amA question: what would be the political damage to McCain, if it were discovered that he’d voted against one of Palin’s $ 400 million in earmarks?
September 15th, 2008 at 9:17 ambarfly Says: Stock futures markets, I think.
I’m sure you’re right – but it’s still an illogical argument on tehir part when Texas oil is minisucule and oil dropped below $100 a barrel yesterday.
Besdies, why are they the only ones who don’t get to share in this pain? Why must the entire burden fall on us? How many freaking houses and cars and things can these greedy pigs actually own, and in the process bankrupt the country?
If we can’t afford $4 gas, what happens with $5 gas? Haven’t we seen that the consumers drive the market, not the corporations, and that when we don’t buy – everyone loses?
September 15th, 2008 at 9:18 amIt’s a shame politicians forced banks starting back in the 80s to give home mortgages to poor people who weren’t credit worthy enough. That’s where all this mess started. And also that they didn’t regulate Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac like they do other banks. The bulk of people at Lehman make $50k or less, plenty of ‘regular’ people will lose their jobs. But they will get new jobs.
.
if money were free
it would have no value
- extreme inflation
.
absurd thought –
God of the Universe says
forgive all debts
settle all accounts
no one owes anything
.
absurd thought –
God of the Universe says
make housing costs look cheap
go paint a rosy picture
September 15th, 2008 at 9:18 amjust get people to sign up
.
This has to be laid at the feet of Republicans, esp. Phoreclosure Phil Gramm and his two separate bills at the close of the last decade – the banking deregulation act and the commodity futures modernization act; the former allowed no regulations for mortgages inked by nontraditional lenders, the latter set up the credit default swaps which allowed this house of cards to gain such immense size that our entire financial system is on the verge of collapse.
Also, isn’t it strange no one seems to object that the Fed and Treasury are spending moneys without Congress signing on? I thought only Congress could spend money; I guess the piece of paper which assigns those duties truly is obsolete.
And ain’t it strange how the Fed or Treasury “invests” while Congress “spends,” even though the market basically wanted nothing to do with Bear, Lehman, Fannie, etc. Just as the Bush “tax cuts” were actually loans each future taxpayer unwillingly and without consent was burdened with, so these “investments” are actually spendings without the consent of that archaic term “We the People.”
September 15th, 2008 at 9:21 ambarfly Says: A question: what would be the political damage to McCain, if it were discovered that he’d voted against one of Palin’s $ 400 million in earmarks?
CNN, on their ‘Palin Revealed’ episode, actually pointed this out.
I imagine that the 23%ers will spin it in some absurb manner as they always do. Fortunately, from the comments from Republicans on MSM blogs, I think the rest of teh country is catching on, and while McCain may have appeased those 23%ers with his pick of Palin, he can’t win an election with them alone.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:24 amabsurd thought -
Shouldn’t that be “absurdist thought?”
September 15th, 2008 at 9:24 ambarfly Says:
absurd thought -
Shouldn’t that be “absurdist thought?”
I don’t know if it’s the most absurd, there are many absurd thoughts.
.
absurd thought –
God of the Universe says
live way beyond your means
just ignore reality
soon you will win lottery
.
All real freedom starts with freedom of speech. Without freedom of speech there can be no real freedom.
.
Philosophy of Liberty Cartoon
.
Help Halt Terrorism Today!
.
USpace
:)
September 15th, 2008 at 9:27 am.
A suggestion for the Obama campaign.
Support the bailout of these financial institutions with conditions:
1. As, per above, no golden parachutes.
2. LOAN these companies their bailout funds, due with interest from future profits.
3. Re-regulate the living sheist out of this industry
4. Homeowners who get bailed out should have their credit revoked, call it an idiot or sucker tax.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:29 amunbelievable Says:
CNN, on their ‘Palin Revealed’ episode, actually pointed this out.
Hopefully now that Obama has green-lighted the 527’s, we’ll be hearing this very-effective talking point soon.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:29 amUSpace Says:
You really are SUCH an idiot. No such thing happened. Rather the problem came when Glass Steagal was overturned. That allowed financial institutions to work hand in hand with banks to bundle and sell mortgages. Then the banks didnt CARE if the loans were good or not since they were going to bundle them and sell them to the financial institutions. Once the solid loans were all gone banks went aggressively after BAD loans, what did they care they werent keeping them. The financial institutions didnt care either because they KNOW there no risk. The US has always had socialism for the rich and just like the Savings and loan scandal the taxpayer will come to the rescue. Your stupidity is pathetic and as for your thoughts they are ALL absurd you worthless moron
September 15th, 2008 at 9:30 amOK, maybe #4 is too harsh. How about a five year credit hit, and call it a damnitsuckstogetduped tax.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:31 am#11 misshusseinmolly Says:
ThinkFast is quite depressing today — large financial companies biting the dust, McCain and Palin continuing to lie through their teeth, the struggle to bring stability to Iraq is far from over, and conditions in Afghanistan are at their worst since 2001. Score: Bushco = 0.
But it’s good news that Americans seem to be coming to their senses. They have reached their threshold on giving the President more power and on giving CEO failures golden parachutes. Score: American people = 1.
There’s some hope!
Good Morning :) I couldn’t agree with you more. That is why I posted the piece about Hillary. That was the only good news I could find anywhere….
The Wall Street tsunami has everyone stunned.. Another worry for all of us is the hit our 401k’s will take because of this. It’s not going to be pretty…
Have a good day missmolly !!
September 15th, 2008 at 9:31 amI don’t know if it’s the most absurd, there are many absurd thoughts.
You misunderstand.
“Absurdist,” as it originates in an absurd mentality.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:31 amAbout gas prices- 20% of our refining capacity is based in Texas. Since those refineries are shut down, due to Ike, the oil companies think they have free license to gouge us.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:33 amThe same corporate geniuses who are destroying the economy bear considerable responsibility for enabling Bush and the Republicans to gain control of our government and subvert the rule of law. At least you would think they were geniuses after witnessing their arrogance and contempt for the American people, and the huge payouts they earn in return for running their companies into the ground (Carly Fiorina, anyone?). Does anyone here want to defend the proposition that the Republicans know how to run the economy for the benefit of this country?
September 15th, 2008 at 9:33 amFormer “Star Trek” crew member George Takei and his partner Brad Altman were “among the first gay couples to get a marriage license” after the California Supreme Court struck down the state’s gay marriage ban in May. Yesterday, the two men were finally married in a “Buddhist ceremony at the Japanese American National Museum in downtown Los Angeles.”
Now I know the popping sound I heard was Daryll’s head exploding ……..
September 15th, 2008 at 9:33 amunbelievable Says:
How the hell can anyone who bankrupts a company think they deserve a mui-million dollar reward in the first place? Appalling.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:05 am
_______
I know, right? I mean, usually they only get rewarded for stuff like laying off a few thousand workers in order to boost dividends. What gives?
September 15th, 2008 at 9:33 amI don’t know if it’s the most absurd, there are many absurd thoughts.
You didn’t realize I was insulting you?
Poor guy…
September 15th, 2008 at 9:34 amFreedom Rebel Says
September 15th, 2008 at 9:04 am
They need Hillary to point out that Palin is the wrong woman with the wrong agenda. She will not further the cause on the issues that the Hillary supporters want; Palin will undo all the progress we have made on social issues in this country.
_______________________________________________________
Years ago, I worked in a warehouse. Back in the 70’s, it was dominated by males, and women were not permitted to drive forklifts, which kept them from many of the jobs that would lead to promotions and raises. The warehouse was managed by an “old school” male boss who didn’t think driving forklifts was “ladylike”, and relegated the few women who worked there to the bottom of the ladder — doing things like packing small orders into boxes for shipment and nothing else. As a result, promotions, raises, and career growth was out of the question for anyone who didn’t have a pen!s.
Eventually, pressure came down to the boss from corporate headquarters that he must give female employees the same opportunities as males — and they expected him to give the women forklift training. The boss’s response? Because he so desperately wanted to demonstrate that he was right about women and forklifts, he chose from among his ranks the most incompetent woman he had, and assigned her a position that required driving a forklift, but didn’t give her any formal training on it. Then he sat back and waited for her to fail, so he could say, “See — I tried it your way and it didn’t work!”
This is why I’m feeling a great sense of deja vu at the Palin pick. There are many women in politics (in both parties) who are ready for advancement. Yet the current woman positioned near the glass ceiling (and I’m getting tired of that metaphor) is someone incompetent and untrained. Her failure would set women back at least a couple of generations if she was elected — especially if tragedy struck McCain and she became President.
It’s understandable that Hillary is going to do everything in her power to make sure Palin doesn’t undo everything she has worked so hard for. I agree.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:35 amThe cost of crude is way out of line with the cost of the finished product: $96.79 for a barrel of light, sweet crude when gas prices are approaching or exceeding $5.00 a gallon. The barrel cost with these prices are usually $130-140. A gallon is $3.69 in my area, and shockingly, it’s now $.14 cheaper at $3.55 to buy at Exxon than it is the other convenience stores (Citgo, etc.) which can normally sell it for less because of convenience store sales.
Gouging?
September 15th, 2008 at 9:35 amEugeneDebs Says:
You really are SUCH an idiot.
You whining little Communist wannabe, we’re both right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_V._Debs
http://absurdthoughtsaboutgod.blogspot.com/
:)
September 15th, 2008 at 9:37 am#30 hussein toasterhead Says:
I know, right? I mean, usually they only get rewarded for stuff like laying off a few thousand workers in order to boost dividends. What gives?
Merrill’s CEO John Thain was the highest paid CEO last year, raking in $83 million in salary and they are writing off BILLIONS. That should have never been possible…. It’s sickening what these guys make as the firm is tanking..
September 15th, 2008 at 9:38 ambarfly Says:
I don’t know if it’s the most absurd, there are many absurd thoughts. You didn’t realize I was insulting you?
I knew you were trying to. You Libs are just too clever for words.
*BIG HUGS*
September 15th, 2008 at 9:38 amMcWars Says:
The cost of crude is way out of line with the cost of the finished product: $96.79 for a barrel of light, sweet crude when gas prices are approaching or exceeding $5.00 a gallon. The barrel cost with these prices are usually $130-140.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:35 am
_______
Well there’s the last nail in the coffin of the idea that “drill here drill now” will have any effect whatsoever on the price of gas at the pump.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:38 amUSpace Says:
*BIG HUGS*
September 15th, 2008 at 9:38 am
_______
Ooo, look everyone – a poetroll! He/she gets some points for innovation, but loses a few dozen for the usual mindless stupidity.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:40 amhttp://absurdthoughtsaboutgod.blogspot.com/
Absurdist “thoughts” confirms that it’s not an infrequent occurrence, hence “absurdist.”
It’s nice to see such refreshing honesty about one’s self.
I wish I had such courage.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:41 amUSpace Says:
——————————————————————————–
barfly Says:
I don’t know if it’s the most absurd, there are many absurd thoughts. You didn’t realize I was insulting you?
I knew you were trying to. You Libs are just too clever for words.
*BIG HUGS*
September 15th, 2008 at 9:38 am
It was you and your cancervative ilk that gave us 8 years of the worst presidency in US history ; really believe you have any credibility or leeway to talk about someone’s “cleverness” ?
September 15th, 2008 at 9:42 amRight wingers and their cowardice are going to be the ruin of this country if we don’t fight back.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:43 amI’ve been trying not to go there, hussein toasterhead… how does one point out effectively and tastefully that another poster isn’t making the least bit of sense, yet has themselves convinced that they are somehow quite witty and insightful?
September 15th, 2008 at 9:43 amI’m quite proud of Hillary. She’s really doing everything she can, even working against her own feelings, to put the bitterness of the primaries aside and raise money and vouch for Obama. She could be attending these fundraisers with her own debt in mind, yet in true get-up-when-you-fall-down spirit
she does what’s right.
I don’t know if you can count on Hillary taking a direct shot at Palin, though. Hillary knows that doing so will prompt the frat-types in the media to yell “CAT-FIGHT!”
September 15th, 2008 at 9:44 amOOoo – good Democracy Now today: Author Steve Coll on the bin Laden family ant its ties to the U.S.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:45 amant / and
September 15th, 2008 at 9:45 ambarfly Says:
I wish I had such courage.
____________
Or could afford the drugs…
September 15th, 2008 at 9:46 amWell, off to work.
Hey, hey, US; has your blog-whoring gained any money for your linked compendium of absurdities?
I’m betting not.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:46 amMcWars Says:
Hillary knows that doing so will prompt the frat-types in the media to yell “CAT-FIGHT!”
__________
I hate to admit it, but yer prolly right about that…
September 15th, 2008 at 9:47 amThe Republic of Stupidity Says:
——————————————————————————–
barfly Says:
I wish I had such courage.
____________
Or could afford the drugs…
September 15th, 2008 at 9:46 am
And/or go to overtime on a weekend drinking binge …….
September 15th, 2008 at 9:47 ambarfly Says:
I’m betting not.
__________
Yeah, but look at this this way, barfly… it keeps one more troll off the streets, where it might otherwise be out shaking down 2nd graders for their lunch money.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:49 amMcCain talks out of both sides of his mouth.
Listening to his speech this morning, when he spoke about the failure of the investment firms, he literally advocated for less and more regulation in one sentence.
Incredible !!
¶ AIO
September 15th, 2008 at 9:49 amMCMetal Says:
And/or go to overtime on a weekend drinking binge …….
____________
Given the tenor and tone of the posts, and the… huh… ***cough…*** “quality” and “originality” of the thoughts, I’m guessing cheap fortified wines are the favored booze du jour…
September 15th, 2008 at 9:51 amLooks like Boone’s Farm made a bundle ………
September 15th, 2008 at 9:52 amAll indicators showing that something is indeed wrong with the economy and specially in the banking busniess,that needed to be corrected soon.
Not trying to be pessimist,but rules have been looser these days in Wall Street due to deregulations.
-In May the government saved Bearn Stearns from total collapse.
-Last week the government took over Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac.
-Yesterday Bank of America worked a deal to rescue Merrill Lynch.
-And now the US government are faced with another giant financial institution Lehman Brothers (4th largest Investment Bank) ready to file bankruptcy.
It was unfortunate that Barclays Bank walked out of a takeover deal in the last 24 hours that would have avoided the markets today this problem,and saved Lehman Brothers.
Today US government is unable to rescue this giant bank.
We hope that something can be worked out,after all its the little guy’s money invested in stocks, bonds or retirement account that will be affected.
I believe in making profits by companies,but with fairness. There should be also good regulations, good periodical auditing of these institutions so we don’t have to see again in the future what’s happening today.
Greed is the cancer of all of this and must be eliminated.
I hear now J. McCain talking about this crisis on television..
September 15th, 2008 at 9:54 amI don’t think he knows the depth of the crisis.
He talks instead about himself taking advantage of the situation,and how great he is on economic issues ,how he has been the champion of economic ideas in comparison to Obama.
The country now and today in particular is looking for solutions,and not political speeches.
We must be looking to restore confidence again…but it all goes back to balancing the government budget,confidence in the dollar abroad,solving energy problems.
Let’s not forget that the backbone of US economy remains the consumer.
When the consumer is hurt..the economy will suffer.
The government needs to do whatever it can to help the average American.
To do that the government needs to help the average American in his health bill,gasoline bill,education bill..and many others,not by sending him a little check, but by protecting him from greed and corporate predatory behavior.
The Dow is currently down over 300 points…………
BTW
Tina Fey was hilarious on SNL portraying Caribou Barbie
September 15th, 2008 at 9:54 amThe event was originally scheduled to be at the home of John Boswell, whose Boswell House Ministries is undergoing an IRS probe.
___________
“An IRS probe”??? Hopefully this will be experienced by Mr Boswell as the financial equivalent of a prostate exam…
September 15th, 2008 at 9:55 amMcWars Says:
The cost of crude is way out of line with the cost of the finished product: $96.79 for a barrel of light, sweet crude when gas prices are approaching or exceeding $5.00 a gallon. The barrel cost with these prices are usually $130-140.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:35 am
The whole second quarter was out of kilter from a pricing, supply-demand standpoint. Throw in Hurricanes Gustav and Ike, which CNN said just minutes ago “didn’t hurt our oil infrastructure”, and the picture becomes more bizarre.
If the cost per barrel is low, gas prices remain high, and big oil gets insurance money for any hurricane damages, I feel another record profit quarter coming!
September 15th, 2008 at 9:55 amYou tolerant Libs are SO mean.
absurd thought –
God of the Universe says
blame Lehman on the Jews
for a few more thousand years
September 15th, 2008 at 9:56 amthey are Earth’s scapegoats
.
hussein toasterhead Says:
Well there’s the last nail in the coffin of the idea that “drill here drill now” will have any effect whatsoever on the price of gas at the pump.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:38 am Recommend (0) | Report Abuse
Good morning, H. Toasterhead.
Thanks for making that clear. One with a thorough knowledge of basic economics could tell you that you don’t reduce prices by meeting demand, you reduce prices by reducing demand. The free, unregulated markets do this in a painful way, and the most vulnerable Americans are affected. So when the right claims that we want to leave people in the dark, we respond that energy efficiency is not taking away one’s lifestyle. The proposals use less energy to maintain the average quality of life all Americans should enjoy. Curbing excesses will not leave anyone in the dark.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:56 ambarfly Says:
I don’t know if it’s the most absurd, there are many absurd thoughts.
You didn’t realize I was insulting you?
Poor guy…
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Sadly stupid. USMoron doesnt ‘realize’ anything he hasnt been TOLD to realize.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:56 amMCMetal Says:
Looks like Boone’s Farm made a bundle ………
______________
And poor USpace got left holding the bindle… ***sniff… sniff*** poor li’l feller.
Hmmm… Boone’s Farm… perhaps we should check out their stock and see what it’s selling for. Bidness would appear to be good.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:57 amMcMetal, mayhaps a gallon or so of Thunderbird?
September 15th, 2008 at 9:58 amUSpace Says:
——————————————————————————–
You tolerant Libs are SO mean.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
blame Lehman on the Jews
for a few more thousand years
they are Earth’s scapegoats
.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:56 am
Why should intentional ignorance and stupidity be tolerated ?
BTW
Want to know what “mean” is ?
Illegally spying on fellow Americans and torturing “enemy combatants” branded as such by the most dishonest president and administration in US history…….
September 15th, 2008 at 9:59 amUSpace Says:
EugeneDebs Says:
You really are SUCH an idiot.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You ignorant piece of human debris. You havent been right about ANYTHING and if it ever happens it will be an accident. I am not going to your stupid moronsite to read some opinion piece to tell me THEY are wrong too. Pull your head out of that dark dank part in your anatomy you keep it, turn off the radio and read a few dozen books then get back to us you worthless cretin
September 15th, 2008 at 10:00 am#32 misshusseinmolly Says:
Freedom Rebel Says
September 15th, 2008 at 9:04 am
They need Hillary to point out that Palin is the wrong woman with the wrong agenda. She will not further the cause on the issues that the Hillary supporters want; Palin will undo all the progress we have made on social issues in this country.
It’s understandable that Hillary is going to do everything in her power to make sure Palin doesn’t undo everything she has worked so hard for. I agree.
It sounds like a couple of jobs I had working in offices. I was a full charge bookkeeper. The only other tasks or responsibilities my bosses thought women were capable of doing was making coffee and fixing the copier. (None of the technicians could ever fix it that worked in the office) It use to drive them crazy to the point they would yell down the hall to me to help them out. Like it was my fault the damn thing jammed… and they couldn’t figure out what to do.
On a different note, I don’t blame Hillary for feeling insulted either. What she has accomplished in her life is incredible. The McCain camp drags about the crowd size that Palin draws, just wait til they see Hillary in full swing. She will be such an asset to this campaign, I can’t wait til she comes to my home state in Ohio. I would like to go to that particular rally…
Good to see you :)
September 15th, 2008 at 10:00 amThe Republic of Stupidity Says:
I’ve been trying not to go there, hussein toasterhead… how does one point out effectively and tastefully that another poster isn’t making the least bit of sense, yet has themselves convinced that they are somehow quite witty and insightful?
September 15th, 2008 at 9:43 am
I was just wondering that myself! :D
September 15th, 2008 at 10:00 amRUCerious Says:
——————————————————————————–
McMetal, mayhaps a gallon or so of Thunderbird?
September 15th, 2008 at 9:58 am
Looks more to be a vat of Everclear………..
September 15th, 2008 at 10:00 amMcMetal, would you say that Fey immortalized herself with that skit? Kudos to her, she quickly quenched the thirst of millions who wanted to see her accurately portray that lunatic.
September 15th, 2008 at 10:01 amSatirev @16, thanks for that link! When my brother told me a few months ago that he might vote for McCain I said that McCain has changed his position so many times in the past 8 years that probably even HE didn’t know where he stood on issues anymore! (Maybe that’s why there’re trying to make this campaign about personalities instead of issues?)
September 15th, 2008 at 10:01 amFey was terrific ……….Actually , if Fey was McDepends’ running mate , that ticket would have a lot more credibility than the current GOP ticket does.
September 15th, 2008 at 10:03 amUSpace Says:
You tolerant Libs are SO mean.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
And you brainwashed braindead hivemind wingnuts are SO pathetic. You have the IQ of grout fungus on a GOOD DAY.
September 15th, 2008 at 10:04 amRUCerious Says:
McMetal, mayhaps a gallon or so of Thunderbird?
________________
Ooooooo… the perennial crowd favorite, T-bird!!! Good bet.
Any takers on Night Train? Mogan David 20-20… the legendary Mad Dog?
I sense… a betting pool coming on!!! Place your bets now!
September 15th, 2008 at 10:04 amAh, thanks stateofthedivision for putting it into perspective like only you can do!
September 15th, 2008 at 10:04 amUSpace Says:
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
blame Lehman on the Jews
September 15th, 2008 at 9:56 am
_______
Phil Gramm is Jewish?
Who knew?
September 15th, 2008 at 10:05 amMCMetal Says:
… that ticket would have a lot more credibility than the current GOP ticket does.
___________
And be far funnier too. Can you imagine the kind of adlibs Fey could get off w/ McPain working as her straight man? Comedy… Gold!!!!
September 15th, 2008 at 10:06 amYa know, hussein toasterhead, if I didn’t know better, I’d say someone here is trying to indulge in a little anti-semitism and pretend its our fault at the same time…
September 15th, 2008 at 10:07 ammisshusseinmolly Says:
Eventually, pressure came down to the boss from corporate headquarters that he must give female employees the same opportunities as males — and they expected him to give the women forklift training. The boss’s response? Because he so desperately wanted to demonstrate that he was right about women and forklifts, he chose from among his ranks the most incompetent woman he had, and assigned her a position that required driving a forklift, but didn’t give her any formal training on it. Then he sat back and waited for her to fail, so he could say, “See — I tried it your way and it didn’t work!”
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Something similar happened in the operating dept of the railroad when they started hiring women in the late 70’s. In Barstow yard they hired really small women who had trouble with the more physical part of the job. Two problems many went out on the road and became engineers and were VERY GOOD engineers and they hired all over the system and other places didnt try to hire women that couldnt do the job so it just made the Superintendent look bad not the women.
September 15th, 2008 at 10:09 amUSpace Says:
You tolerant Libs are SO mean.
I’m not giving up brain cells to tolerate stupidity. Give it up, for peter’s sake. Free speech isn’t a one-way road. When you post, that’s free speech. When we respond, that is free speech.
September 15th, 2008 at 10:09 amMcWars Says:
When you post, that’s free speech. When we respond, that is free speech.
__________
I’m not sure which President originally said it, but I’ve always loved the quote:
“The right to be heard doesn’t necessarily include the right to be taken seriously”.
September 15th, 2008 at 10:13 amMcWars Says:
Thanks for making that clear. One with a thorough knowledge of basic economics could tell you that you don’t reduce prices by meeting demand, you reduce prices by reducing demand. The free, unregulated markets do this in a painful way, and the most vulnerable Americans are affected.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:56 am
_______
It’s also important to keep in mind that oil is, in many cases, a vertical monopoly. The same companies that own and operate the gas stations also lease the land they’re drilling on, own the drilling platforms, run the pipelines and shipping lines, and run the refineries to produce the gasoline. The price on the international market is irrelevant, since they’re just buying the crude from themselves (probably through some offshore holding companies to avoid taxes).
September 15th, 2008 at 10:13 am#43 McWars Says:
I’m quite proud of Hillary. She’s really doing everything she can, even working against her own feelings, to put the bitterness of the primaries aside and raise money and vouch for Obama. She could be attending these fundraisers with her own debt in mind, yet in true get-up-when-you-fall-down spirit
she does what’s right.
I don’t know if you can count on Hillary taking a direct shot at Palin, though. Hillary knows that doing so will prompt the frat-types in the media to yell “CAT-FIGHT!”
Good Morning McWars :) I think she will get her on policies, she won’t touch the personal issues. That way she can do a comparison of “what have the Republicans done for you lately”. Which we all know is absolutely nothing to benefit the middle class or the poor but they have hurt us in every conceivable way they can think of. Typical Neo con mentality.
I’m looking forward to seeing her in action in the battleground states she did well in all three states.
September 15th, 2008 at 10:15 amFreedom Rebel Says:
Merrill’s CEO John Thain was the highest paid CEO last year, raking in $83 million in salary and they are writing off BILLIONS. That should have never been possible…. It’s sickening what these guys make as the firm is tanking..
You know, Freb, I thought Mr. Thain (former CEO, NYSE) was supposed to be the guiding light with all the money they threw at him. Or maybe the conditions are so bad, one man with all his brainpower couldn’t stop the rolling snowball accumulating in size. De-regulation rewards stupidity and makes new leadership seem too little, too late.
Thanks for the Hillary column, and good morning!
September 15th, 2008 at 10:18 amMcWars Says:
USpace Says:
You tolerant Libs are SO mean.
I’m not giving up brain cells to tolerate stupidity. Give it up, for peter’s sake. Free speech isn’t a one-way road. When you post, that’s free speech. When we respond, that is free speech.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
It used to be I didnt understand why those living on Planet Wingnut thought that free speech was ONLY for them and their propaganda and if you criticised them that was, in some way discernable only to the truly idiotic, a violation of free speech. Then I realized they have never had a thought in their lives. They listend to their Limborg masters whining that THEIR free speech was being voilated by those criticising them. Even though the very concept is to dementedly stupid to be believed, they DONT THINK, they repeat and they naturally assumed that the same privelege, that is to disseminate propaganda without it being challenged was extended to them. Hivemind morons. Every one of them that whines about their free speech being denied because we disagree with them are just hivemind morons
September 15th, 2008 at 10:19 amMCMetal Says:
——————————————————————————–
RUCerious Says:
——————————————————————————–
McMetal, mayhaps a gallon or so of Thunderbird?
September 15th, 2008 at 9:58 am
Looks more to be a vat of Everclear………..
September 15th, 2008 at 10:00 am Recommend (0) | Report Abuse
Do they still make Ripple?
September 15th, 2008 at 10:27 am
bentley1 Says:
——————————————————————————–
MCMetal Says:
——————————————————————————–
RUCerious Says:
——————————————————————————–
McMetal, mayhaps a gallon or so of Thunderbird?
September 15th, 2008 at 9:58 am
Looks more to be a vat of Everclear………..
September 15th, 2008 at 10:00 am Recommend (0) | Report Abuse
Do they still make Ripple?
September 15th, 2008 at 10:27 am
If they do , looks like their entire stock has been purchased and consumed………
September 15th, 2008 at 10:31 amGreenspan’s monetarist policies deserve significant credit for where we are today–also his underwriting of Bush’s catastrophic tax cuts, inter alia, deserve a big hand.
September 15th, 2008 at 10:31 amMy friends gave me a bottle when I graduated with an AA degree in the 70’s.
September 15th, 2008 at 10:33 amKnock your socks off.
But the worst was sake. Like Fred Sanford said, sweat socky.
tony and lido
bentley1 Says:
Do they still make Ripple?
_____________
Geez… you guys talk big, but no one’s putting any money down on their picks.
So far, we have: Boone’s Farm, Thunderbird, Night Train, Everclear, MD 20-20, and Ripple… man, that is one tight field of contenders. We’ve prolly sent poor US inta a paroxysm of lust… hands shaking… searching, searching… for ONE bottle that’s not completely empty…
September 15th, 2008 at 10:33 amOBAMA TRIED TO STALL GIS’ IRAQ WITHDRAWAL
Obama insisted that Congress should be involved in negotiations on the status of US troops – and that it was in the interests of both sides not to have an agreement negotiated by the Bush administration in its “state of weakness and political confusion.”
Obama has violated the Logan Act and should be prosecuted by the Justice Department.
September 15th, 2008 at 10:34 amJohn McCain in 2000 (from Satirev’s link):
‘This was the first Republican who, on a national stage, was saying things like, “If we repeal Roe vs. Wade tomorrow, thousands of young American women will be performing illegal and dangerous operations,” and, “Neither party should be defined by pandering to the outer-reaches of American politics and the agents of intolerance.”‘
John McCain in 2008 (from his web site):
‘John McCain believes Roe v. Wade is a flawed decision that must be overturned, and as president he will nominate judges who understand that courts should not be in the business of legislating from the bench.
Constitutional balance would be restored by the reversal of Roe v. Wade, returning the abortion question to the individual states. The difficult issue of abortion should not be decided by judicial fiat.’
September 15th, 2008 at 10:36 amOh yeah, the NY Post… that’s a really credible source…
Nice to have someone from The Flat Earth Society check in this morning though…
September 15th, 2008 at 10:39 amA friend said the other day that she had heard that the sec of treasury was leaving in november and that she believed that his seat would mean there would be no one at the helm for 2 months , till the next president takes office .I haven’t been able to find anything on this ,but in light of the collapse of lehman bros and merrill lynch thought it might be of relevance !
September 15th, 2008 at 10:42 amAnyone heard anything about it ?
them_libs Says:
——————————————————————————–
OBAMA TRIED TO STALL GIS’ IRAQ WITHDRAWAL
Obama insisted that Congress should be involved in negotiations on the status of US troops – and that it was in the interests of both sides not to have an agreement negotiated by the Bush administration in its “state of weakness and political confusion.”
Obama has violated the Logan Act and should be prosecuted by the Justice Department.
September 15th, 2008 at 10:34 am Recommend (0) | Report Abus
September 15th, 2008 at 10:43 am
Ex-Clinton Aide Admits: Media Tougher On Palin
Mark Penn: Well, I think that the media is doing the kinds of stories on Palin that they’re not doing on the other candidates. And that’s going to subject them to people concluding that they’re giving her a tougher time. Now, the media defense would be, “Yeah, we looked at these other candidates who have been in public life at an earlier time.”
What happened here very clearly is that the controversy over Palin led to 37 million Americans tuning into a vice-presidential speech, something that is unprecedented, because they wanted to see for themselves. This is an election in which the voters are going to decide for themselves. The media has lost credibility with them.
Trouble!! HAHAHA
September 15th, 2008 at 10:44 amAnd where did you, Alan Greenspam, hide your so hard earned money? Overseas maybe?
September 15th, 2008 at 10:45 amThis capital thief knew what he knew long ago and stole your house and our country right out from under you.
You owe the debt, Alan gets a metal of freedom award and a gold bar for his contribution to the Bush legacy.
U space has gotten more press here than the impending collapse of wall street …. DON”T FEED THE TROLLS !
September 15th, 2008 at 10:45 ambentley1 Says:
Here you go!
According to Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari, Obama made his demand for delay a key theme of his discussions with Iraqi leaders in Baghdad in July.
September 15th, 2008 at 10:45 ami’m waiting for a troll
to show up and tell us
that the economy is fine and
not to worry.
*
oh look, here
he is now.
#
if you owned seven houses
you wouldn’t worry either.
$
thank you.
*
September 15th, 2008 at 10:45 amfreeman Says:
A friend said the other day that she had heard that the sec of treasury was leaving in november…
_________
Hmmm… just found this w/ Google:
Wall Street Rumor: Paulson leaving Treasury to run Citigroup
Posted Nov 28th 2007 12:20PM by Peter Cohan
http://twx.bloggingstocks.com/2007/11/28/wall-street-rumor-paulson-leaving-treasury-to-run-citigroup/
It’s almost a year old… don’t know anything else.
September 15th, 2008 at 10:47 amthem_libs Says:
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YOU are an idiot. NOTHING a Senator proposes in Congress can possibly be a violation of the Hatch act which is about PRIVATE citizens conducting negotiations with foriegn powers. Even for a troll you are an impressive imbecile
September 15th, 2008 at 10:47 amthem_libs Says:
“According to Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari…”
__________
Unfortunately for the Post, and you, this is called “hearsay”…
“Someone says that someone says” means NOTHING. Nice try, though…
Like I said before, go to credible source if you don’t want to get laughed off the thread.
September 15th, 2008 at 10:50 amthem_libs Says:
bentley1 Says:
Here you go!
According to Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari, Obama made his demand for delay a key theme of his discussions with Iraqi leaders in Baghdad in July.
Amir Taheri?
consider the source.
*
here you go!
;)
good luck.
%
September 15th, 2008 at 10:50 amMy point EXACTLY, joe.
“Someone said that someone said” is NOT news.
September 15th, 2008 at 10:53 am“Obama has violated the Logan Act and should be prosecuted by the Justice Department.”
Even if this were somehow true… why the sudden interest in the rule of law? Where the phuck have you been??!?
September 15th, 2008 at 10:53 amthem_libs?
them_libs…?
#
September 15th, 2008 at 10:53 amEugeneDebs Says:
Why do you think Obama is asking for a delay for withdrawal?? It couldn’t possibly be politically motivated could it? The messiah wouldn’t dare put his political position over country would he?
September 15th, 2008 at 10:53 amThanx R of S .that’s one more article than i could find this morning .I’ll ask my friend if she has other links on the subject.
September 15th, 2008 at 10:53 amthem_libs Says:
EugeneDebs Says:
Why do you think Obama is asking for a delay for withdrawal?? It couldn’t possibly be politically motivated could it? The messiah wouldn’t dare put his political position over country would he?
no more phony links?
#
September 15th, 2008 at 10:54 amtry newsmax.
or townhall.
*
good luck.
#
September 15th, 2008 at 10:55 amhere’s one you’ll
like.
+
September 15th, 2008 at 10:56 amthem_libs Says:
NYPost why not just link directly to the Limbaugh homepage? The Logan act says.
Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
So are you really going to claim that a Senator from the Senate foreign relations comittee DOESNT have the authority of the US? You wingnuts are so amusing
September 15th, 2008 at 10:56 amAh the little white guy afraid of the black guy. What up?…
September 15th, 2008 at 10:57 amthem_libs Says:
Why do you think Obama is asking for a delay for withdrawal??
____________
One more time… just because Amir Taheri made the claim, and you insist on repeating it, it doesn’t make it true…
Someone said that someone said… is NOT news.
September 15th, 2008 at 10:58 amthem_libs Says:
Obama insisted that Congress should be involved in negotiations on the status of US troops – and that it was in the interests of both sides not to have an agreement negotiated by the Bush administration in its “state of weakness and political confusion.”
Obama has violated the Logan Act and should be prosecuted by the Justice Department.
September 15th, 2008 at 10:34 am
_________
What part of the Constitution are you not clear on, chuckles?
Specifically, which part of Article II Section 2 are you not understanding:
A status of forces agreement is a treaty. Treaties must be approved by the Senate. Why is it wrong for a sitting U.S. Senator to point out this fact to a foreign head of state?
September 15th, 2008 at 10:58 amThe Republic of Stupidity Says:
Coming from someone who believes every word that comes from the football announcer Oberdork. Who needs to say it for it to be credible?
September 15th, 2008 at 11:01 amthem_libs Says:
The Republic of Stupidity Says:
Coming from someone who believes every word that comes from the football announcer Oberdork. Who needs to say it for it to be credible?
is that all you got?
#
good luck.
:)
September 15th, 2008 at 11:03 amthem_libs Says:
EugeneDebs Says:
Why do you think Obama is asking for a delay for withdrawal?? It couldn’t possibly be politically motivated could it? The messiah wouldn’t dare put his political position over country would he?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
First of all your weak NYPost article doesnt establish anything. Second you are a weakminded moron to be repeating the hivemind stupidity about Obama being a messiah and out yourself as a propaganda parrot without any possible crediblity just copious amounts of stupidity doing so. Third we dont know what was said, we dont know what was being discussed. What we DO know is it was McDufus saying we might be there another hundred years and Obama against the debacle that is Iraq from the beggining. You are a troll. Ya got nothin
September 15th, 2008 at 11:04 amthem_libs Says:
Coming from someone who believes every word that comes from the football announcer Oberdork. Who needs to say it for it to be credible?
_______
Huh? Who’s Oberdork? “Someone who believes everyword…???”
WTF are you talking about?
Before, you were trafficking in hearsay, innuendo, and gossip…
Now, you’re just spouting gibberish. You’re not very good at this, are you?
September 15th, 2008 at 11:05 amhussein toasterhead Says:
I thought Obama wanted the troops out ASAP? Why would he ask for a delay in troop withdrawal, even if he was legally in the right?
September 15th, 2008 at 11:05 amthem_libs Says:
The Republic of Stupidity Says:
Coming from someone who believes every word that comes from the football announcer Oberdork. Who needs to say it for it to be credible?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A moronic troll like YOU ought not to even TALK about credibility. You have none. You would need to gain a couple of dozen IQ points to qualify as for the marching morons society
September 15th, 2008 at 11:06 amthem_libs Says:
I thought Obama wanted the troops out ASAP? Why would he ask for a delay in troop withdrawal, even if he was legally in the right?
__________
Again, your own only source for this statement has no credibility.
This CANNOT be taken seriously, and therefore, your question is meaningless.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:06 amOh OT but I’ve tried a new approach in the battle of evil over the last few weeks. I’ve taken articles on warrantless wiretapping , signing statements,national security letters , torture and extraordinary rendition from major news outlets ,the ABA and the aclu , printed them and approached all the lawyers , prosecuters and ministers in my area and asked for 3 minutes of their time to put them in context .I allowed the articles to do most of my talking for me ,using only the titles and opening sentences to pique their interest.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:07 amI have had 100% success in alerting these citizens , held in high esteem in their communities to the threats to our constitution and our democracy .My speil takes 3 to 5 minutes and I leave them the articles as I go .Almost all of them are aghast at what they largely have had little knowledge of and thank me profusely.
them_libs Says:
hussein toasterhead Says:
I thought Obama wanted the troops out ASAP? Why would he ask for a delay in troop withdrawal, even if he was legally in the right?
uh oh, now you’re backtracking.
not good in a debate.
keep trying.
focus.
*
September 15th, 2008 at 11:08 amthem_libs Says:
Why do you think Obama is asking for a delay for withdrawal?? It couldn’t possibly be politically motivated could it? The messiah wouldn’t dare put his political position over country would he?
September 15th, 2008 at 10:53 am
_______
It’s not a delay for withdrawal. The Bush Administration can pull out as many troops as they like in the remaining 3 months of their administration, no matter what Obama says.
It is, however, a reasonable bit of diplomacy to delay negotiations over a final, long-term status of forces agreement at a time when our President is a lame duck, our Congress is gearing up for elections, and their Parliament is preparing for elections next year, rather than rush through a treaty that may not be ratified by the incoming Senate or their incoming Parliament.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:10 amA new poll released by the AP and National Constitution Center finds “Americans strongly oppose giving the president more power at the expense of Congress or the courts, even to enhance national security or the economy.” Two-thirds of Americans oppose altering the balance of power to strengthen the presidency.
Maybe they should have been paying attention for the last eight years while the very situation they oppose was actually happening.
http://progressiveworldreview.com
September 15th, 2008 at 11:11 amthem_libs Says:
I thought Obama wanted the troops out ASAP? Why would he ask for a delay in troop withdrawal, even if he was legally in the right?
September 15th, 2008 at 11:05 am
______
He didn’t ask for a delay in troop withdrawal. You seem to be making up the facts as you go along.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:11 amjoe cantwell Says:
uh oh, now you’re backtracking.
__________
When yer right, yer right, and joe, yer right. Poor li’l feller’s backed off his initial contention here. Means he’s in trouble, huh?
Hey, them_libs… call a time out, or use a life line… what ever you do, step away from the false premise, and try again.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:11 amhussein toasterhead Says:
You seem to be making up the facts as you go along.
____________
Gee… ya think?
On the other hand… or perhaps I should say, IN the other hand, he did read it in the Post… it’s GOTTA be true, huh?
September 15th, 2008 at 11:13 amMore Global Warming News!
A Melting Arctic: Happy News for Mankind
No change in sea level.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:13 amArctic ice, which floats rather than being anchored on bedrock, doesn’t influence sea levels at all. Antarctica and Greenland do, but with one on a long-term cooling trend, and the other melting at the infinitesimal pace of 0.25% per century, there doesn’t seem to be any call for alarm. Sea level has been rising for thousands of years; the increase over the next century is expected to be less than 1/3 meter.
ros,
i want some more
of his crack pot links.
they’re funny.
*
September 15th, 2008 at 11:15 amMadlibs no longer claims the Logan act was violated and is claiming that Obama tried to delay troop withdrawl which he cannot EVEN WITH HIS QUESTIONABLE LINK substantiate. He libby you do know you suck at this dont you?
September 15th, 2008 at 11:15 amthem_libs Says:
Is this thread about Global warming TROLL? Now you are thrashing around like the drowning moron troll you are. Go away, regroup. Try your best to come up with an actual thought. Recycling idiocy from rightwing websites is pathetic. I get that you are too stupid to even ATTEMPT an original thought and it you ever had one you would mistake if for an aneurysm, but at this point you are just humiliating yourself with this abject stupidity.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:19 amwish answered!
#
(there you go fella,
when you’re losing
change the subject)>
*
good luck.
:)
September 15th, 2008 at 11:19 amjoe cantwell Says:
EugeneDebs Says:
___________
Geez, guys, poor li’l “them_libs” has totally abandoned his Obama thingy…
***snicker…*** Well, we weren’t bein’ real nice ta the li’l feller, were we?
***snork…***
Better luck w/ yer globalb warming thingy, “them_libs”…
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA,,, whew… thas good exercise, huh?
September 15th, 2008 at 11:20 amLook at this idiot using the story of Reagan/Bush and the hostage crisis and putting Obama’s name to it.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:23 amThe Republic of Stupidity Says:
EugeneDebs Says:
___________
i say we keep him
here all morning.
it’s so easy, but fun.
*
thank you.
#
September 15th, 2008 at 11:24 amjoe cantwell Says:
wish answered!
#
(there you go fella,
when you’re losing
change the subject)>
*
good luck.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Those as ignorant as this moronic troll KNOW they are incapable of actual independent thought or actual higher brain function so they are limited to the talking points their hivemind masters have given them. So when one is shot down the only option left is to search their taperecorders that have replaced their brains for ANOTHER talking point. Its all they have pathetic creatures they are
September 15th, 2008 at 11:24 amI think you guys are forgetting that with 20 McCain Troll Points you probably have enough to go down to the convenience store and get one big bottle of malt liquor and take it back to the doublewide. Malt liquor is still a big favorite of the white trash demographic the trolls fit into.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:28 amStupid is as stupid posts. That is the very essence of trollwork.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:28 amAww, look, guys…
Tha li’l feller’s all tuckered out. He’s crawled into a corner and he’s taking a nap.
Musta bin all that thinkin’ he had ta do…
Pssst… joe… go poke him w/ this stick, ‘n wake him up… see what he says…
No… I’m not goin’ near him… he smells like stale pee… you poke him.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:29 ameugene,
where are you
coming from on
this one?
#
September 15th, 2008 at 11:29 amEugeneDebs Says:
Stupid is as stupid posts. That is the very essence of trollwork.
now that’s a quote
from “forrest gump”
right?
#
i know my movies.
*
thank you.
#
September 15th, 2008 at 11:31 amthem_libs Says:
More Global Warming News!
A Melting Arctic: Happy News for Mankind
No change in sea level.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:13 am
______
I consider this a victory – at least you’re not a complete science denier: you seem to agree that climate change is real, and that human activity is at least partially responsible. Good!
Now, let’s widen the scope a bit and realize that loss of Arctic/seal evel riseis isn’t the ONLY issue involved when modeling climate change. Melting Arctic ice changes the temperature and freshwater composition of the North Atlantic, which causes changes in water circulation patterns and currents. This, in turn, will affect global weather patterns, turning deserts into floodplains and arable land into deserts. This will cause mass migration, resource conflict, and potentially mass starvation. Even if sea levels don’t rise an inch, the consequences of rapid climate change will be catastrophic for nearly all living species on this planet.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:31 amFormer Fed chairman Alan Greenspan said the U.S. credit squeeze has brought on a “once-in-a-century” financial crisis…
And Mr. Greenspan played a big part in causing this financial crisis. I wonder how he’s sleeping at night.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:36 amjoe cantwell Says:
EugeneDebs Says:
Stupid is as stupid posts. That is the very essence of trollwork.
now that’s a quote
from “forrest gump”
right?
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Actually more of a paraphrase but YEAH.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:37 amThis site is nothing but recycled stale left wing ideology. The fact that every one on this board supports Obama with the hope that he something different is moronic and naïve. Until the Democrats get ride of the radical left it will continue to lose every election from this point on.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:37 amthem_libs Says:
This site is nothing but recycled stale left wing ideology. The fact that every one on this board supports Obama with the hope that he something different is moronic and naïve. Until the Democrats get ride of the radical left it will continue to lose every election from this point on.
not “every one on this board”
what about you?
*
you’re spinning in circles libby.
getting dizzier and dizzier.
:)
September 15th, 2008 at 11:44 amjoe cantwell Says:
you’re spinning in circles libby.
getting dizzier and dizzier.
:)
September 15th, 2008 at 11:44 am
_______
Cute, isn’t it? We’ve handily smacked him down on foreign policy and climate change, so he’s changing subjects yet again.
So sad. This recent batch of trolls is a pathetic lot indeed. Probably need an instruction manual to use a toothpick.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:46 amThis troll is too stupid to know that we think he’s a total nitwit. Obviously he’s clueless because now he’s giving us advice on how a Democrat could win the election. Do these trolls have no idea how much we loathe them and think they are poor excuses for human beings.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:49 amYou would contend that Obama voted with bush 95% of the time in 2007 and 100% of the time in 2008 as mccain did?
mccain = bush
Obama = change
change you can believe in.
If you can’t show where your statement makes sense then you must accept that you are the fool that everyone believes that you are. Just sayin it doesn’t make it so.
the right will fall into the darkness just as they have in the past….for a long time, again.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:54 amin the meantime the
economy goes down the drain.
bush speaks.
thank you republicans.
you’ve done enough.
*
September 15th, 2008 at 11:58 amHave you guys noticed….no trolls on the ecomony is in the dumps or even fox is calling mccain out on his lying?
Come to this thread to try to get our minds off of the failures of thier hero’s….heh.
the gop is like a deer that’s been shot with a broadhead arrow. Still running buy going to die eventually as the broadhead is shredding thier insides as they continue to run.
September 15th, 2008 at 12:03 pmFred Says:
Have you guys noticed….no trolls on the ecomony is in the dumps or even fox is calling mccain out on his lying?
Come to this thread to try to get our minds off of the failures of thier hero’s….heh.
the gop is like a deer that’s been shot with a broadhead arrow. Still running buy going to die eventually as the broadhead is shredding thier insides as they continue to run.
good post.
i would love to ask
libby the same question.
*
but it appears he’s run away.
#
September 15th, 2008 at 12:08 pmjoe cantwell Says:
You guys were on the mark too Joe. It’s just so easy to come in late and summarize the failure of trolls like this. Just think of one gop project and replace the republican with the trolls name and voila.
September 15th, 2008 at 12:12 pmFred Says:
Obama has no record! He has no record!
September 15th, 2008 at 12:18 pmthem_libs Says:
Fred Says:
Obama has no record! He has no record!
you have to say it three times
then it’ll come true.
:)
September 15th, 2008 at 12:20 pmjoe cantwell Says:
What has he done?
September 15th, 2008 at 12:21 pmWhat a childish thing to say. He has as much of a record as mccain.
You seem to be impotent.
September 15th, 2008 at 12:22 pmthem_libs Says:
What has he done?
________
Libby, yer behind the curve here. Yer fellow trolls have been trying that one for MONTHS now. Yer gonna hafta break down and subscribe to KKKarl’s Premo Platinum Talking Points Memo™. The free stuff is just too old, or flimsy…
And please, no more links to the NY Post…
September 15th, 2008 at 12:25 pmthem_libs Says:
Why don’t you try to tell us how mccain will be different than bush.
September 15th, 2008 at 12:27 pmFred Says:
them_libs Says:
Why don’t you try to tell us how mccain will be different than bush.
i got this one for you libby.
the answer is:
no difference!
#
thank you.
#
September 15th, 2008 at 12:29 pmjoe cantwell Says:
thanks for calling me a libby, made my day. Looks like the wingers would start cringing when you call them righties these days…….won’t be long before you won’t be able to find anyone who ever supported bush or mccain.
September 15th, 2008 at 12:40 pmFred Says:
What a childish thing to say. He has as much of a record as mccain.
In what reguard?
McCain is going Privatize social Security. He has a much more logical and sensible answer to disaster relief than Obama. McCain’s health care plan makes more sense, and will do far less damage to the quality of our health care system than Obama‘s. Obamas has never ran anything other than his campaign, and it’s funny that he uses it as a qualifier to say he suited for the presidency.
September 15th, 2008 at 12:44 pmthem_libs Says:
In what reguard?
another child
left behind.
*
ps – fred i wasn’t calling you “libbly”
i was answering your question for
our friend, libby.
#
thank you.
^
September 15th, 2008 at 12:48 pmsilly wabbit, is going is not a record.
September 15th, 2008 at 12:50 pmthem_libs Says:
even if you agreed with mccains failing ideas, which I don’t, is going is not a record……
September 15th, 2008 at 12:52 pmFred Says:
silly wabbit, is going is not a record.
That’s all Obama has is a “Going To” campaign. He does not have a record.
September 15th, 2008 at 12:55 pmgotcha joe…..works for me both ways but I understand that the fool on the hill can easily be spoken for….you just did it with truth and him….not so much.
I still take being called a libby, commie, etc. as a complement. It’s the same mentality the righties use for race, they like being called white, makes them feel special.
September 15th, 2008 at 12:56 pmthem_libs Says:
Fred Says:
silly wabbit, is going is not a record.
That’s all Palin has is a “Going To” campaign. She does not have a record.
*
fixed!
^
September 15th, 2008 at 12:59 pmthem_libs Says:
That’s all Obama has is a “Going To” campaign. He does not have a record.
__________
Siiiiiiiiiiigh… One. More. Time.
Yer fellow trolls have been here trying this tact fro MONTHS now. I’m not going to go back thru all of this again.
You really, really need to upgrade your talking points. Yer so far behind the curve, libby.
September 15th, 2008 at 1:00 pmthem_libs Says:
That’s all Obama has is a “Going To” campaign. He does not have a record.
September 15th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
________
So? All McCain has is a “Going Back” campaign. He’s just going to go back and repeat the same failed policies of the Bush Administration.
September 15th, 2008 at 1:03 pmjoe cantwell Says:
Palin has a much higher security clearance than Obama or McCain.
September 15th, 2008 at 1:04 pmThem_libs Says:
joe cantwell Says:
Palin has a much higher security clearance than Obama or McCain.
*
libby i bet you i have a much higher
security clearance then you.
*
here i’ll show you:
klaatu barada nikto!
see?
#
now what are your credentials?
!
September 15th, 2008 at 1:10 pmthem_libs Says:
This site is nothing but recycled stale left wing ideology. The fact that every one on this board supports Obama with the hope that he something different is moronic and naïve. Until the Democrats get ride of the radical left it will continue to lose every election from this point on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Like the Dems KICKED GOP BUTT IN 06? You are a liar and a fool. We understand anyone as ignorant as you couldnt possibly think for themselves so when you TRY you parrot US as if it what WE say about you is true about us, that is pure projection and astonishing self delusion. You are an ignorant troll, that is your lot in life. Nothing you can do about it you are too stupid to do anything else. I pity you
September 15th, 2008 at 1:11 pmthem_libs Says:
Obama has no record! He has no record!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
YOU have no BRAIN, no functioning grey cells WHATSOEVER. You poor pathetic deluded hivemind moron
September 15th, 2008 at 1:14 pmhussein toasterhead Says:
So? All McCain has is a “Going Back” campaign. He’s just going to go back and repeat the same failed policies of the Bush Administration.
Failed Policies? Are saying that Bush has caused the bank’s to go bankrupt? He, without the approval of Congress started the Iraq War?
September 15th, 2008 at 1:18 pmthem_libs Says:
McCain is going Privatize social Security. He has a much more logical and sensible answer to disaster relief than Obama. McCain’s health care plan makes more sense, and will do far less damage to the quality of our health care system than Obama‘s. Obamas has never ran anything other than his campaign, and it’s funny that he uses it as a qualifier to say he suited for the presidency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You are such a moron. Poor deluded moron. McCain will NOT privitize SS if he tried in the unlikely even he won he would be skewered like Bush was. His health plan is being eviscerated by health care experts. You really dont know anything at all do you? Obama has as much experience as Abraham Lincoln did when HE became president and he was a pretty good Pres. Meanwhile Bush ran Texas and is a catastrophe that walks like a man and is destined to go down in history as the WORST PRESIDENT in American history. You porr ignorant deluded fool. Your capacity for self delusion is astonishing
September 15th, 2008 at 1:19 pmthem_libs Says:
Failed Policies? Are saying that Hoover has caused the bank’s to go bankrupt?
*
americans have heard
this excuse before.
#
good luck.
*
September 15th, 2008 at 1:22 pmthem_libs
Tell us more about mccains record. Like the fact that he signed on to the de-regulation that has decimated our ecomony.
September 15th, 2008 at 1:23 pmEugeneDebs Says:
Your the problem with the Democrats. You can’t disagree with someone without trying to insult them. The libs get drunk with emotion and lose site of reality!
September 15th, 2008 at 1:33 pmhem_libs Says:
EugeneDebs Says:
Your the problem with the Democrats. You can’t disagree with someone without trying to insult them. The libs get drunk with emotion and lose site of reality!
*
the poor spelling is the clue.
the name changes but
it’s same troll over and over again.
*
you need a new line libby.
#
September 15th, 2008 at 1:39 pmsite?
+
September 15th, 2008 at 1:39 pmthem_libs Says:
EugeneDebs Says:
Your the problem with the Democrats. You can’t disagree with someone without trying to insult them. The libs get drunk with emotion and lose site of reality!
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Oh WWWWAAAHHHHHHHHH YOU call Obama the messiah and Olbermann Olberdork but WE have some obligation to treat YOU with respect? I know you hivemind morons think that God gave you conservapunks the exclusive franchise on personal attacks but its pathetic to see you snivel so piteously that WE treat you the same way YOU treat us. You are pathetic and ignorant. I cant POSSIBLY be what is wrong with the Democratic Party. I am not a Democrat. The Dems have disrespected true liberals far too long and arent even close to lefty enough for me. They just arent a bunch of plague rats like the GOP. Keep up the free clown show, insulting the left then crying WWWWWAWAHHHHHHHHH like a little six year old it is SO entertaining. You better wake up to the fact though that some of us liberals are DONE playing the punching bag. YOU bring unemotional, critical thinking based, cogent arguments (though you wouldnt be capable of such even in your dreams) I will respond in the same vein. YOU come in here tossing mud I am tossing back. Nothing in the entire world means less to me than what YOU think about that.
September 15th, 2008 at 1:45 pmsays the guy blogging from the insane asylum. You don’t think we forget who the origal muckrakers and mudslingers are do you? The republicans are totally responsible for the civil discourse and divisions in our country today.
remember when the republicans took power, they told the democrats to sit down and shut up that they were in power now and didn’t want any imput from the democrats.
blow your bullshit out your ass mr civil discourse victim, liar, whiner.
how does it feel to be part of a failed party?
September 15th, 2008 at 1:46 pmI think the reason the REALLY ignorant trolls like this one come in here breathing fire then whining so embrassingly when hostility comes back to them is they think the whole world is defined by AM hateradio. The are assimilated. They are OF the Limborg whichever screechmonkey is their personal hivemind master. They see their heros mocking and demeaning liberals day after day and they dont hear anyone throwing down on THEM. Since they screen the calls and dont allow any real leftys to take them apart so they naturally assume in their awesome stupidity that they should be treated the same. Its fine for them to attack us but how DARE we attack them back. Their side perfected HATE with Limbaugh, the Wienerdog and Ann Gangleskank Coulter. Yet they have the NERVE to snivel like little punks when WE get testy. Notice the rightwing meme about how angry the LEFT is. They want to be the exclusive distributers of insults and personal attacks and REALLY try to stop the left from fighting back. I tried the reasonable lefty for quite a while. NOW if they want to take the argument into the mud I will follow them there because our ideas are better. We can beat them in Harvard debate halls we can beat them in the pigsty. I am just committed to giving them a beating.
September 15th, 2008 at 1:54 pmEugeneDebs Says:
Fred Says:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!! I love it!
September 15th, 2008 at 1:58 pmthem_libs Says:
EugeneDebs Says:
Fred Says:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!! I love it!
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You are a liar a fool and a pathetic sniveller. I love that is the quality of trolls the right is left with. Beyond scraping the bottom of the barrel they have now lifted the barrel and the rocks beneath it to find cretins like YOU
September 15th, 2008 at 2:07 pmEugeneDebs Says:
Your phony outrage is comical at best. Liberal policies are as mindless as the people who support them. Nothing you support is for the betterment for society as a whole. Leaders that micromanage the country get bogged down in detail, like your daily thought process. A leader has to make decisions, not create decisions to make.
September 15th, 2008 at 2:08 pmEugeneDebs Says:
Eugene, it’s better to ignore to fool troll at some point. It wants to somehow, after destroying our society to take credit for being better managers than democrats.
history has never and never will reflect well on republican administrations or legislators…..
this fool knows that and doesn’t care. Didn’t even learn to spell as Joe has pointed out.
best to just let them rant and show thier foolish ignorance.
September 15th, 2008 at 2:15 pmEugene, you do what you feel is right though…..that’s just my take on it.
September 15th, 2008 at 2:17 pmthem_libs Says:
EugeneDebs Says:
Your phony outrage is comical at best. Liberal policies are as mindless as the people who support them. Nothing you support is for the betterment for society as a whole. Leaders that micromanage the country get bogged down in detail, like your daily thought process. A leader has to make decisions, not create decisions to make.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You have no idea what I support only that I take apart your weak and stupid arguments like a cheap watch. Did you think making these ignorant baseless assertions without even TRYING to make an argument why they MIGHT be true actually makes a point? You are a fool. You repackage the Rushingdownthedrugaddictionmountain show and run it by us. YOU wouldnt know a thought much less a thought process if it kicked down your door sat at your breakfast table and ate your cornflakes. The policies I support brought us the 8 hr work day, the weekend, vacations and end to child labor and Jim Crow and women the right to vote. I GET that to YOU none of that bettered society since it wasnt all about making the rich richer and killing brown skinned people wherever they may live. You just spew out stupidity and actually think we are going to take you seriously? You are a moron, get over it.
September 15th, 2008 at 2:21 pmFred Says:
EugeneDebs Says:
Eugene, it’s better to ignore to fool troll at some point. It wants to somehow, after destroying our society to take credit for being better managers than democrats.
history has never and never will reflect well on republican administrations or legislators…..
this fool knows that and doesn’t care. Didn’t even learn to spell as Joe has pointed out.
best to just let them rant and show thier foolish ignorance.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I understand what you are saying but ignoring Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter for a decade or so just because they were ridiculous didnt serve the left well. I think the American people as a whole arent all that interested in politics. I think powerful interests put a lot of resources into making us apathetic and it has worked to a large degree leaving the game to them. What the American people want to see is that you CARE that you are willing to fight for what you believe in. I think THAT is one reason they were willing to give the right power for a few decades to see what they could do. So while I understand your take, I dont agree and am in a fighting mood. When THEY bring it, its on, just that simple
September 15th, 2008 at 2:25 pmEugeneDebs Says:
Go getem Eugene, we need more progressives like you.
September 15th, 2008 at 2:59 pmThanks Fred, trollstabbing is a moral imperative
September 15th, 2008 at 3:09 pmTrollstabbing… I like that. Nice imagery.
September 15th, 2008 at 5:09 pmI prefer trollflushing, but trollstabbing, except for spreading greenish ichor all over your web page, is just fine.
September 15th, 2008 at 5:10 pmI prefer just to spin them around in circles and then watch them stumble about like kids having rolled down a good sized hill. I consider it more humane…
September 15th, 2008 at 5:22 pm>Petraeus explained, “You don’t kill or capture your way out >of an industrial strength insurgency.”
Right, you bribe your way out! 300$ a month for every petty thug, and multimillion dollar bribes for the logisitcal equivalent of the taliban…
Without massive bribes, Betrayus “surge” would have had zero successs..as it is, its just delaying the envitable choas that will ensue when the american taxpayer finally decides to stop paying for peace..
September 15th, 2008 at 8:46 pmUSpace Says:
EugeneDebs Says:
You really are SUCH an idiot.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You ignorant piece of human debris. You havent been right about ANYTHING and if it ever happens it will be an accident. I am not going to your stupid moronsite to read some opinion piece to tell me THEY are wrong too. Pull your head out of that dark dank part in your anatomy you keep it, turn off the radio and read a few dozen books then get back to us you worthless cretin
BOO HOO…LOL!
I said you so-called ‘Liberals’ were “SO mean”, I didn’t say you should be silenced, like so-called ‘Liberals’ say should happen to conservative Talk Radio.
Quite the contrary, we independents and those Right of Center would love to see the Left learn how to really debate, then your weak ‘Religion’s weak arguments can more readily be debunked for the lies that they are.
Don’t worry, you’ll like a McCain/Palin Administration, you’ll see. Get used to the idea. Accept reality.
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All real freedom starts with freedom of speech. Without freedom of speech there can be no real freedom.
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Philosophy of Liberty Cartoon
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Help Halt Terrorism Today!
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USpace
:)
September 17th, 2008 at 10:22 pm.