Spanish Embassy: McCain still holding Bush’s grudge against Spain for withdrawing troops from Iraq.
Spanish Embassy: McCain still holding Bush’s grudge against Spain for withdrawing troops from Iraq.
When asked if he would meet with Spanish Prime Minister José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero earlier this week, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) appeared confused as to whom Zapatero was and would not commit to a meeting if he is elected president. But McCain’s top foreign policy adviser has said McCain was not confused — he was simply articulating his policy. Assuming this is the case, ThinkProgress argued yesterday that McCain would be carrying forth President Bush’s grudge against Zapatero for withdrawing Spain’s troops from Iraq. Today, MSNBC reports that the Spanish Embassy in Washington, D.C. agrees:
The only plausible explanation for McCain not wanting to meet with Zapatero, is that, like Bush, he is still angry about Spain pulling its troops out of Iraq in 2004. If McCain carries that much of a grudge then how in the world will he rebuild our relationship with Europe, as he has said he would do.
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McWorse clearly holds his old grudge against Spain. When he was a child he served with Sir Francis Drake in fighting against the Spanish Armada and defending England! He managed to sink an English ship during the engagement! Seriously, can this innane, insane idiocy of a campaign get much worse? I join the refrain in asking, why is this race even Close?
September 19th, 2008 at 11:47 amImpeach Pelosi, Cheney and Bush and Restore the Constitution!
Impeach Palin and Restore the Rule of Law!
Shiver me timbers, matey! Arrrggghhh!
Such straight talk from the Embassy! Whatever happened to diplomatic nicety’s. God, if more diplomats spoke that honestly, we could have some major breakthroughs in the worlds hot spots.
September 19th, 2008 at 11:51 amMcPutz & Bush think Zapatero Look French.
September 19th, 2008 at 11:51 amFreedom fies anybody?
Senility. It’s what’s for breakfast.
September 19th, 2008 at 11:52 am“The only plausible explanation…” ?
That may be so , but he could ALSO be not fully compus mentis as he didn’t even acknowledge hat the subject was SPAIN after the interviewer stated that the subject was SPAIN, FOUR TIMES!
September 19th, 2008 at 11:53 amIf McCain’s posture seems like an adolescent temper tantrum aimed at a critical member of Washington’s Atlantic alliance, it’s hardly an isolated episode. With his vitriolic Paris and Berlin-bashing in the run-up to the Iraq war in 2003, John McCain stood shoulder to shoulder with the France-hating purveyors of “freedom fries” and “old Europe.”
For the details, see:
September 19th, 2008 at 11:53 am“Snub of Spain Just McCain’s Latest Europe Bashing.”
“…as he has said he would do.”
Since when has the senile (not Crusty) old bastard ever done as he said he would do? He has an excuse, however, he can’t remember what he said.
September 19th, 2008 at 11:54 amNot sure, but I believe the post contains an error:
If I’m not mistaken, Spain only pulled it’s troops out THIS year (part of Zapatero’s re-election campaign promise), not 2004.
September 19th, 2008 at 11:54 amBut McCain’s top foreign policy adviser has said McCain was not confused — he was simply articulating his policy.
_______________________________________________________
If THAT was “articulation”, then McCain needs some elocution coaching. Unless his “policy” is to confuse Spain with Latin America, say things like, “what about me what?”, and when all else fails, blither some meaningless boilerplate.
September 19th, 2008 at 11:54 amIt’s like I said yesterday. Fixing the policy around the gaffes.
September 19th, 2008 at 11:54 amLeftside Annie Says: Senility. It’s what’s for breakfast.
Now fortified with irrational hatred and TWO scoops of wing-nut clusters!
September 19th, 2008 at 11:55 amAngryOne Says:
John McCain stood shoulder to shoulder with the France-hating purveyors of “freedom fries” and “old Europe.”
September 19th, 2008 at 11:53 am
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So what’ll it be this time? I’m guessing tapas will become “freedom apps” and tortillas will become “freedom omelettes.”
September 19th, 2008 at 11:56 amActually McCain did not seem to know Zapatero was. He is not holding a grudge, he seriously did not know who the hell the reporter was talking about.
Having a president showing signs of dementia or Alzheimers at the helm of this country is the last thing we need, especially after having a drunk wreck everything for the last 8 years.
September 19th, 2008 at 11:57 amChorizo -> liberty sausage?
September 19th, 2008 at 11:57 amPaella -> “cockney stinking eel pie”?
September 19th, 2008 at 11:59 amMugsy: If I’m not mistaken, Spain only pulled it’s troops out THIS year (part of Zapatero’s re-election campaign promise), not 2004.
Nope. April 28th 2004. YOu must be thinking of another one of the coalition of the not so willing anymore.
September 19th, 2008 at 12:00 pmIf Keating Five McCain holds grudges for pulling out of Iraq, these allies are next on his shit list:
Slovakia
September 19th, 2008 at 12:01 pmLithuania
Italy
Netherlands:
Spain
Japan
Thailand
Honduras
Dominican Republic
Hungary
Nicaragua
Norway
Portugal
New Zealand
Philippines
Iceland
Georgia(!)
McCain says “Thanks, but no thanks” to having a fu(king clue. He’s adrift in a sea of lies and knee jerk crapola. He has no idea how to get back to land.
September 19th, 2008 at 12:02 pmNOPE! Still not buying it!
McStain didn’t have a clue who, what or where he was referencing, but it didn’t cause him to even pause to consider before speaking. And all that came out of his mouth was Neocon tough talk.
McStain shoots from the hip, is impulsive and thoughtless, and that, my friends, is the most dangerous approach to foreign policy I can imagine.
I want to see his current medical records, his medical and mental evaluations, and his debriefings following his return from Vietnam. Given that the ‘Nam conflict has been over for 34 years, there is nothing in there that is a threat to today’s national security.
McStain’s physical and mental health, however is a huge threat to our national security, should he manage to win in November.
NOW! I want to see the records NOW!
PEACE
September 19th, 2008 at 12:02 pmjeez. don’t know which is worse…
i still think it dementia… but to look like a tough guy, he’ll go with the grudge…
gawds help us… all.
September 19th, 2008 at 12:03 pm5th Estate Says:
Leftside Annie Says: Senility. It’s what’s for breakfast.
Now fortified with irrational hatred and TWO scoops of wing-nut clusters!
Yummm-O!! ;o)
September 19th, 2008 at 12:04 pmSpain is the new France.
September 19th, 2008 at 12:07 pmGOP reduced to a freak show, kind of funny except nearly half the citizens are falling in line for a parade of stupidity.
September 19th, 2008 at 12:08 pmCan we please elect a POTUS who’s brain functions at least on a normal level?
September 19th, 2008 at 12:10 pmThis just shows how sensitive the McCain campaign is to the charge that McCain is haveing “senior moments.” Instead of just admitting that McCain was confused, they actually go with it and insult a NATO ally. Un-fricking-believable!
September 19th, 2008 at 12:10 pmOkay. We’ve got a serious problem here.
Did McDementia actually not know who the reporter was referring to?
Or does he indeed hold a grudge.
Because, if I remember correctly, isn’t Spain a democracy?
And didn’t it’s people elect Prime Minister José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, who campaigned for troop withdrawal, to which he fulfilled his promise?
Which is it?
September 19th, 2008 at 12:15 pmSenility and forgetfulness, or does McDementia hate democracy and freedom?
And why the hell am I, a simpleton, asking these questions, and not the media????
This is both sad and frustrating. Mccain (to me) didn’t seem to know to whom the interviewer was referring or even which country she was talking about. Sad that he is so out of touch and seemingly on the verge of complete senelity and frustrating that so many people still refuse to see him as he is.
September 19th, 2008 at 12:15 pmjb Says:
GOP reduced to a freak show, kind of funny except nearly half the citizens are falling in line for a parade of stupidity.
___________
Woo hoo! I’m No 1!
Evvverybody… fall in and form a conga line!
One-and-two-and-three-and-four… booma-chaka-booma-chaka…
September 19th, 2008 at 12:17 pmUncle Ho Says:
McPutz & Bush think Zapatero Look French.
Freedom fies anybody?
September 19th, 2008 at 11:51 am
Mc and Shrub probably don’t know that most Spaniards are wither than Bohner any day. But hey, South America = Spain = Latins = Italians, isn’t? Probably The Joker is their foreing relations advisor for Hispanic relations.
hussein toasterhead Says:
Paella -> “cockney stinking eel pie”?
September 19th, 2008 at 11:59 am
In fact, paella has no eels. The traditional recipe hasn’t even any sort of fish. But I must admit that as of today, the most popular variety contains varied shellfish, and other varieties include other fishes, or a mix of rabbit and shellfish (mar y montaña, sea and mountain).
But I’ll add my own contribution to your list:
Sangria can be renamed as
“Freedom cheap wine with a lot of fruits, sugar and ice to hide its lack of quality” :D
September 19th, 2008 at 12:22 pmWell that’s a policy the free world can live without. Fascism is a boil not just on Liberty’s ass but the world’s ass. Just because Spain “got it” and moved away from the center of war criminality is no reason to begrudge them. Rather, Spain should be applauded for recognizing where the real threat to world peace comes from.
McCain betrays America with every breath by supporting wars of aggression and bald-faced nationalist socialism. He’s impeached even before attempting to extend the illegal Bushist coup.
http://www.light-to-dark.com/McBush.html
September 19th, 2008 at 12:25 pmNot if it’s a GOP candidate. (See 1960 – present)
September 19th, 2008 at 12:26 pmhussein toasterhead Says:
I know, I know… I was quoting Manuel from Fawlty Towers. :)
Hah, I loved that soap opera, a great example of british humour. Anyhow, I didn’t find the Manuel’s character very accurate as satire of a Spaniard ;) . I think he was even “original” from my own city.
I recall specially the scene of John Cleese marching as a nazi in front of a german family who had lost members in the concentration camps. How dumb was Mr Fawlty?
I think I’ll buy the remastered DVD tomorrow!
What else is there – is picadillo originally a Spanish dish? If so, it’s now “patriot chili.”
Yes, it’s originally Spanish, and the basis for chorizo, and probably the mexican picadillo or chili is derived from it, but probably it has differences (specially the hot chili peppers). We use garlic to enhance the taste.
September 19th, 2008 at 12:29 pmEvil Spaniard Says:
In fact, paella has no eels.
I know, I know… I was quoting Manuel from Fawlty Towers. :)
Sangria can be renamed as
“Freedom cheap wine with a lot of fruits, sugar and ice to hide its lack of quality” :D
September 19th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
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Ha – good one! I forgot about sangria – consider it renamed.
What else is there – is picadillo originally a Spanish dish? If so, it’s now “patriot chili.”
September 19th, 2008 at 12:31 pmThere is a more disturbing aspect to Flippy’s rambling than just disrespecting Spain/Zapatero. While it’s true that GOoPers routinely ignore the meaning of words, much of the World tends to take things literally. And Flippy’s stated intention to only meet with heads of state who are, “allies” and “democratic” rules out much of the World.
I would guess that foreign governments are busy drawing up contingency plans to deal with, another, insane U.S. President. My question is, “how much longer will civilized nations tolerate this kind of crap”?
September 19th, 2008 at 12:31 pmhussein toasterhead Says: Chorizo -> liberty sausage?
Doesn’t Mann Coulter have one of those? (Whatever happened to her anyway? Did she move to Dubai?)
September 19th, 2008 at 12:36 pmOoh!
I note that Spain hasn’t been attacked since 3/11/04 so I guess the policy of NOT BEING IN IRAQ must be keeping that country safe?
“We’re not fighting them over there so we don;t have to fight them over here”
Viva Zapatero!
September 19th, 2008 at 12:40 pmpete Says:
I would guess that foreign governments are busy drawing up contingency plans to deal with, another, insane U.S. President. My question is, “how much longer will civilized nations tolerate this kind of crap”?
With more countries gathering evidence of war crimes by the
NeoconBush malAdministration, interviewing victims of rendition, etc. I suspect most of the world is growing tired of what this country has been doing.History shows the world does not tolerate usually a malevolent hegemony for long before trying to take them out.
September 19th, 2008 at 12:41 pmcorrection: History shows the world does not usually tolerate a malevolent hegemony for long before trying to take them out.
September 19th, 2008 at 12:43 pmToaster Head observes:
“Doesn’t Mann Coulter have one of those? (Whatever happened to her anyway? Did she move to Dubai?)”
I’ve wondered about the rebot’s state of mind since the outing of her anti-democracy ideology. It’s so messy, the truth.
http://www.light-to-dark.com/ann_coulter_republican.html
September 19th, 2008 at 12:44 pmEvil Spaniard Says:
Yes, it’s originally Spanish, and the basis for chorizo, and probably the mexican picadillo or chili is derived from it, but probably it has differences (specially the hot chili peppers). We use garlic to enhance the taste.
September 19th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
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Yah, that’s how we do it, too. (And by “we” I mean Cubans-by-osmosis). Garlic, onions, bell peppers, olives, cumin, oregano, and bay leaves. Some people add raisins but I usually leave them out.
September 19th, 2008 at 12:54 pmEvil Spaniard: “Anyhow, I didn’t find the Manuel’s character very accurate as satire of a Spaniard ;)”
Ah but Manuel wasn’t just Spanish, he was from Barcelona. which according to Mrs. Fawlty. explained everything!
:D
P.S. You really aren’t very evil at all.
September 19th, 2008 at 1:01 pmSo we will not talk to members of NATO now? Spain was smart enough to keep out of Iraq and McCan’t is being a bully by not talking to Spain? Please. He didn’t even know who they were talking about. For someone who’s been in the business of politics for so long he is woefully under-prepared for the job.
September 19th, 2008 at 1:20 pmOh, God, not Freedom Fries again!
September 19th, 2008 at 1:22 pm5th Estate Says:
Evil Spaniard: “Anyhow, I didn’t find the Manuel’s character very accurate as satire of a Spaniard ;)”
Ah but Manuel wasn’t just Spanish, he was from Barcelona. which according to Mrs. Fawlty. explained everything!
:D
P.S. You really aren’t very evil at all.
September 19th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
Well, if you watch the last movie of Woody Allen, “Vicky Cristina Barcelona“, prolly you can see me at one or other scene, walking down the street. They filmed less than a block away from my job :D
(I wear no moustache and my tan is frankly inexistent).
I don’t get what everything explains ;)
Oh, and the “Evil” part of the apellative comes from the video game Pirates from MicroProse, where all Spaniards where described as “Evil”, and all French affected and effeminated, etc.
September 19th, 2008 at 1:22 pmHe sounds so old and tired and confused. I almost feel sorry for him. (Almost.)
September 19th, 2008 at 1:31 pm5th Estate Says:
Ooh!
I note that Spain hasn’t been attacked since 3/11/04 so I guess the policy of NOT BEING IN IRAQ must be keeping that country safe?
“We’re not fighting them over there so we don;t have to fight them over here”
Viva Zapatero!
September 19th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
In fact, there have been a series of terrorist complots since then, but our police has disbanded and arrested them. Today, a pakistani integrist organization has aknowledged they’re the instigators of the last one:
http://es.noticias.yahoo.com/vocento/20080919/video/vwl-los-talibanes-se-responsabilizan-del-060abc3.html
BTW, we believe the police actions, not military ones, are the best answer to terrorism.
September 19th, 2008 at 1:42 pm“Spanish Embassy: McCain still holding Bush’s grudge against Spain for withdrawing troops from Iraq.”
Gee, ya think? McCain = McBush. Both McCain and Bush are two peas in a pod. They both have temper tantrums and they hold grudges on people that won’t give them their own way. McCain just showed Spain that he is more of the same Bush regime: Same gender with the same agenda.
September 19th, 2008 at 1:42 pmEvil Spaniard: “we believe the police actions, not military ones, are the best answer to terrorism.”
Exactly! Terrorists are criminals, not soldiers.
September 19th, 2008 at 2:27 pmSubject: Is McCain the real-life Manchurian Candidate – or worse
Please pass this email along to your friends and anyone that votes.
We all know that John McCain spent 5 ½ years as a POW in North Vietnam. But do we know what happened during that time? There are closely held rumors that McCain was subjected to intense brain-washing by North Vietnam and Russian KGB agents. You may be aware of the movie The Manchurian Candidate which tells the story much like this rumor. As a POW, the character of the movie was brainwashed by his captor in a plot to ultimately control the outcome of an election.
September 19th, 2008 at 2:33 pmThere has been debate for years as to the extent of Soviet KGB and GRU (Soviet military intelligence) involvement in attempts to “turn” American POWs, with attempts by the Pentagon, supported always by McCain, to deny that the Soviets were involved in any such activity. Nevertheless, there was extensive testimony in Congress that POWs were interrogated and possibly recruited.
Events that provide credence to this rumor that McCain may be under foreign influence include his time on the United States Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs. On this committee, McCain was an attack dog against the POW/MIA activists that were pushing for a resolution to the status of POW/MIAs. McCain attacked anyone and everyone working to keep the search alive. McCain demanded and received a U.S. Justice Department investigation of two major POW/MIA activist groups..McCain showed more interest in bettering relations with Vietnam, in consort with greedy U.S. big business interests, than resolving the POW/MIA issue by accounting for the missing men; in McCain’s case his FELLOW POWs
More recently, McCain abandoned his hard-felt beliefs as a maverick and independent as soon as he was a serious candidate for president. These examples of 180 degree flip flops can only be explained by some force greater than that of a man of principal. Some examples of this include the following.
McCain authored a bill in 2005 that would provide a path for illegal immigrants to obtain a legal status. Then once in the presidential race he said he would not vote for his own bill – what kind of a man feels so strong about a topic that he would introduce a bill and then later say he would not vote for his own bill – did circumstances change? Only the fact that he needed to be accepted by the right-wing to get elected and he was willing to sell his soul to the devil – or the KGB to get there. Must-get-elected- must-get-elected ….
McCain really wanted to have his friend (and fellow hawk) Senator Joe Lieberman as a running mate. But because Lieberman was not acceptable to his base, he picked an unknown, unqualified, and scandal-ridden Sarah Palin as his running mate in a desperate attempt to pull an upset. As a 72 year-old man with a history of cancer, McCain has a nearly 30% chance of dying during two terms in office –leading to a high probability that someone with no national experience, no foreign relations experience, and the belief that Iraq is a Holy War, would end up as president AND Commander and Chief. Who in their right mind would do this? Must-get-elected.-Must-get-elected…
As you might guess, McCain was against torture prior to becoming a contender. In fact, in 2005 he added an amendment to the Defense Appropriations bill that would prohibit inhumane treatment of prisoners, including prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. McCain even fought and prevailed against a threatened veto by the Bush white house. But candidate McCain voted for an intelligence bill that sanctioned torture. McCain of all people – after suffering 5 ½ years of beatings in North Viet Nam – is now OK with torture. How –and better yet WHY – would someone with his background and such strong beliefs that he would fight the white house – all of a sudden change his mind on such a fundamental subject? This isn’t a choice between Pepsi and Coke – I’ll have no torture – no I changed my mind – I’ll have the torture. First McCain sponsors a bill to prevent torture then candidate McCain declares the supreme court’s decision that habeas corpus protections apply to detainees held at Guantanamo Bay, as “one of the worst decisions in the history of this country.” Would a man of principals simply change his mind on such a fundamental topic? What would cause such a severe about-face? All I can think of is such an unbridled drive to become president that he would do ANYTHING to get there. Must-get- elected-must-get-elected-must-get-elected…
In 1999 and during the 2000 Presidential campaign, McCain scolded the “special interests in Washington” that sought offshore drilling leases. Today candidate McCain says drill-drill-drill. Must-get-elected- must-get-elected…
In 1999, McCain saw no need to overturn Roe Vs Wade. Later, Candidate McCain said “I do not support Roe Vs Wade, it should be overturned. In ‘00 and ‘07, McCain Called for Exceptions in the GOP’s Platform on Abortion for Rape, Incest, and potential issues related to the Mother’s Life. Today candidate McCain who is charge of that platform and in a position to make these exceptions is full-bore pro-life with no mention of exceptions. Furthermore, he selected Sarah Palin who is a right-to-life hawk. Must-get-elected-must-get-elected.
Other examples:
• Against Warrantless Wiretapping – now he’s for it.
• Against Privatizing Social Security – now he’s FOR it.
• For Liberman-Warner to curb Global Warming – now he’s Against it
• McCain promises “not to take the low road to the higher office in the land”, then turns so negative that Karl Rove said he went too far—Karl-the-king-of-slime-Rove
The list goes on and on.
So back to the question at hand. Why is a self-professed maverick –someone that has a reputation of fighting his own party, suddenly abandoning hard-felt fundamental principals? Many brainwashing victims become fractured personalities – and clearly John McCain is a fractured personality.
But to answer the question – he is doing these about face flip flops to get elected at any cost. So the possibilities for this are:
1) McCain was brainwashed by communists and was a sleeper agent for years then activated by becoming the party’s nominee for president,
2) He really has changed many deep fundamental beliefs, or
3) He’s just doing whatever it takes to get elected because he wants to be ppresidet.
Let’s look at these possibilities. If #1 above is true, we really can’t blame McCain. He was literally beaten and brainwashed. This is bad for the US, but McCain is not culpable. If #2 is the case, then McCain has a real case of Schizophrenia. In this case, the person you think you are electing will probably have really different beliefs by the time he is in office-God knows what he will be for next year. As further proof, Schizophrenia is characterized by disorganized speech and thinking-I think these symptoms are obvious. If #3 is the case, then Country First is bullshit- Its McCain first at any cost –even to the point of abandoning his most fundamental stances and selling out his own views for the support of the far right to get elected.
I’m not sure which is worse!
Note that McCain’s slogan “Country First” doesn’t say which country!
And this is going to help our diplomatic efforts ***HOW*** ??????
Nothing like burning a bridge before it is even constructed.
September 19th, 2008 at 3:32 pmMapleStreet Says:
Nothing like burning a bridge before it is even constructed.
September 19th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
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Hey Spain – thanks, but no thanks!
September 19th, 2008 at 3:51 pmIts obvious that the McLame campaign is engaging in damage control. They had only two options: acknowledge that he misspoke or acknowledge the content of what he said. So the decision had to be made, which is worse, a senior moment revealing McLame’s mental incompetence or a foreign policy slight that can be papered over if he’s lucky enough to get elected. Obviously the second option seemed less damaging. Bluster thus led the way. In either case McLame comes up smelling like a turd blossom.
September 19th, 2008 at 4:36 pmMcCain knew what he was saying. This is no gaffe. He thinks Spain is soft on terror, and this is why:
He knew 1) that Spain threw out Azaria, a Bush-supporting rightwing Spanish pol, after Azaria tried to blame 3-11 on Basque terrorists instead of al Qaeda. It was a naked propaganda/lying power grab, and Zapatero won–just barely.
And about three months after Zapatero took office, he pulled EVERY troop out of Iraq, all 3 thousand of them. And he’s enjoyed popular approval ever since.
2) Did you know that they’re members of a SOCIALIST party, a left wing party that makes the Democrats look like Bush loyalists?
3) Did you know that Zapatero’s Defense Minister is not only a woman, but she’s a PACIFIST? This is no exaggeration, and believe it or not, not only are Spaniards pleased with HER job, but they’re crazy about her.
A country with a PACIFIST in the equivalent of DONALD RUMSFELD’S JOB? How is that even possible? We need to invade SPAIN, right away, and John McCain believes that–although he can’t come right out and say it without THIS kind of a brouhaha.
Spain is a worse threat to us than Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia and Canada combined.
September 20th, 2008 at 2:43 amI think that MacCain is “confused”, but the things are not so simple in real life.
http://www.redstate.com/diaries/spaniardformccain/2008/sep/20/tha-spanish-prime-minister/
September 20th, 2008 at 6:02 amRE: Daddy-O, 20 Sep
I am not sure you are not confused?
Are you referring to the ex-PM Sr. Aznar. I have never heard of “Azaria” as significant person in Spain.
Spain did not “throw out” Sr. Aznar as you indicated; he simply decided not to run for a third term. There is a slight difference!
Where do you get the information that the Spanish citizens are pleased with the female defense ministers performance? She has not even been holding that post long enough to evaluate her “performance.” She has not one iota of qualification for the job, and was only appointed by Zapatero because she is a female! But, that is like many of the Zapatero appointees, they have no academic training and little, or no, experience for the posts they occupy. The speaker for the party (PSOE) was a PLUMBER, before being elevated to that position!
And, no we do not need to invade Spain: after all, I LIVE HERE and would not welcome that at all.
But, maybe your post was just satire? If so, I can forgive your off-base comments otherwise.
Take care, OK?
September 21st, 2008 at 12:15 pm