Are you better off than you were eight years ago?
By on Sep 29th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Are you better off than you were eight years ago?
Marcy Wheeler breaks down the numbers:
DOW January 19, 2001: 10,587.59
DOW September 29, 2008: 10,365.45NASDAQ Jan 19, 2001 = 2770.38
NASDAQ September 29, 2008 = 1983.73CPI, January 19, 2001: 175
CPI, September 29, 2008: 219Dollar exchange with Euro, January 19, 2001: 1.068
Dollar exchange with Euro, September 29, 2008: .695
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147 Responses to “Are you better off than you were eight years ago?”
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So? It's not like those numbers are the fundamentals of the economy or anything...
September 29th, 2008 at 5:03 pmGood point, HTH. Now, if you were to go insultin' the real fundamentals of the economy -- our workers -- then I'd hafta pummel ya.
September 29th, 2008 at 5:07 pmUm...it might be appropriate to include the price of a gallon of gas.
Eight years ago, a gallon of gas cost me about $1.50 and I got paid $14.98 an hour, so I had to work about six minutes to buy a gallon of gas.
Today, I get paid $15.25 an hour, and I can buy a gallon of gas for about %3.89. I now have to work just over 15 minutes to buy a gallon of gas.
Why haven't I had more of an increase in my pay in the past eight years? I got downsized, and wound up having to take a job that paid less than what I was making, I've only recently caught up to what I was earning eight years ago. This has happened to many Americans.
Too bad gasoline hasn't been doing that.
September 29th, 2008 at 5:08 pmChucky, you're full of shit, and you're making a mess.
Republicans own this cluseterf uck, in the name of deregulation.
Get on your knees and thank your Reagan god.
September 29th, 2008 at 5:11 pmIf Obama does not come out swinging for the fences after POW John and DUMBya laid a leadership egg, i will be pizzed.
The GOP is a joke and the only posative that will come of this is the GOP will go the way of the Whigs.
September 29th, 2008 at 5:12 pmThe GOP only likes affirmative action when it can help one of their unqualified hacks like Clarence Thomas or Sarah Palin.
-GSD
September 29th, 2008 at 5:14 pmChucky, lets compare all the filibusters, Veto and Veto threats, blockades, and obstruction tactics. Most in HISTORY !!! see how that works. It's just too bad that 23% of Americans are dumb as a bag of rusty hammers (Chuck) and are incapable of thinking for themselves.
September 29th, 2008 at 5:14 pmDemocrats insisted on forcing lenders to make loans to deadbeats?
September 29th, 2008 at 5:14 pmYou mean by deregulation? Phil Gram is a republican. Explain to me how lenders where forced to make a loan?
"The party is over." -- Chairman Nancy
====
September 29th, 2008 at 5:16 pmSept.2001 my wage 100K
Sept.2008 my wage 80K
Sept. 2001 wife doesn't have to work
Sept.2008 wife working 50 hour weeks
Sept.2001 4 rentals
Sept.2008 2 rentals
no, it has been 8 years of hell
September 29th, 2008 at 5:17 pmYeah, because all experts agree that everything was hunky-dory two years ago and problems like a fundamental instability in financial markets are the kind of things that can just pop up out of nowhere, with the simple change of power in one branch of the government, even if nothing substantial changes in the meantime.
Never are they the result of long-term trends, say, of deregulation or consolidation. Never are they the result of government policies like, say, deficit spending and costly war-making on credit.
Good point.
One question, though, Schmucky... eight years ago we were told that massive tax cuts were needed because a government that ran a surplus was "overtaxing" its people. Then we were told that tax cuts were necessary because of a mild recession. THEN we were told that tax cuts were necessary because we'd been attacked. THEN we were told tax cuts were necessary, just because. All along we were promised a bright, robust economic future as a result of these tax cuts.
Can you tell me, Schmucky, how long it's supposed to take for that robust economy to get here?
September 29th, 2008 at 5:17 pmZooey, Bingo! The Republicans own this clusterf uck and Reagan is the start of it. Now if only the Democrats would get the megaphone out and push it.
September 29th, 2008 at 5:17 pmHELL NO I'M NOT
strawmen are fit for feeding to livestock CHUCK - take it out to the barn and feed it to your trough-hog buds in the GOP.
September 29th, 2008 at 5:17 pmThe dates don't make a fair comparison. January 2001 was right before the dot-com bubble burst. Anyone with stock investments at that time was doing very well. Republican policies and a "free" market philosophy led to that bubble too, but we should be comparing apples to apples here.
I'd rather see Jan. 2000 vs now or Jan 2001 vs three months before the housing bubble or the credit bubble burst.
September 29th, 2008 at 5:18 pmNot entirely true. They also like it when it helps unqualified prep school grads gain admission to fancy Ivy League schools that their daddy went to.
September 29th, 2008 at 5:18 pmPoor people in their first homes have the HIGHEST rate of payment. Its the morons who thought the housing prices would increase forever that purchased house after house, took seconds and thirds out for boats, cars, vacations, etc... and thoe who lied on their application about their income, that are the problem. Who are they?? Oh yea GOP dirt bags.
Once again No questions for McBush. Did he just change his stance AGAIN??? of course he did.
September 29th, 2008 at 5:19 pmI believe this is called a report card.
September 29th, 2008 at 5:19 pmWrong. The dot-com bubble burst in summer, 2000. The stock market had already lost ground from its (then) all-time high of over 11,723 by the time Bush was selected by SCOTUS.
September 29th, 2008 at 5:20 pm#3 the aptly named ChuckySchmucky:
Let’s do a comparison of those numbers, pre-2006 and now.
Is the mortgage market better off now, after Democrats insisted on forcing lenders to make loans to deadbeats? Or was it better before affirmative action in lending?
What a pile'o'crap. When did Democrats require that loans be made to deadbeats? <*crickets chirping*>
FWIW, though, RW attempts to smear low-income applicants (read: "coloured folks") are inaccurate; see this study of low-income loans through the CRA. When done by community banks (as CRA loans are) -- and not by Wall Street backed financial institutions with "teaser rates and no money down", only to be sold as junk bonds the second the mortgage clears so that there's no incentive to put together a realistic loan -- the loan performance is actually pretty good. And in fact, community banks (who have an incentive in doing good loans for more than one reason) are not in trouble here.
Cheers,
September 29th, 2008 at 5:20 pmChucky, subprime mortgages increased significantly from 2001 to 2005, before backing down.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7302341.stm
It's the fourth graphic down the page.
September 29th, 2008 at 5:28 pm.
While most Americans aren't better off now than they were 8 years ago...
America is not safer either...
And while our boarders and ports seem to be a bit more secure...
Americans have less Freedom and Civil Rights.
.
September 29th, 2008 at 5:29 pmJust watched McCain's statement regarding the failure of the bill to pass. He is claiming credit for making ALL the changes to the original bill, which had already been hammered out before his Mighty Mouse dive bomb into D.C. He answered no questions from the Press, thus could not explain why he stated, just this morning in Ohio, that he'd saved the bill that was going to pass. I wouldn't vote for this guy for the position of local dog catcher...truth is NOT his "friend." God, what an awful man....and I actually used to admire him once upon a time. AGGGHHHH!
September 29th, 2008 at 5:29 pmChuckySchmucky has that boost of confidence after listening for days on end to Limbaugh, Levin et al. So he thought he'd stop by and test his newly acquired propaganda.
Test failed.
CRA never required risky and unsafe lending, and not all banks were bound by the legislation.
Idiot.
September 29th, 2008 at 5:30 pmDid Speaker Pelosi's "partisan comments" affect the text of the bill Republicans failed to pass? Why did these Republcan congressmen run from the Republican President and Republican presidential candidate? This was a Republican bill Republicans failed to pass.
September 29th, 2008 at 5:34 pmRisky and unsafe. Sounds like a certain Republican congressman, what was his name? Foley or something?
September 29th, 2008 at 5:35 pmNancy made poor widdle wepubwicans weep! Waah!
September 29th, 2008 at 5:36 pmThe "republican brand", officially S*T*I*N*K*S!!
September 29th, 2008 at 5:38 pmI was better off when Bill Clinton was in the White House.
Dumbya and friend's "war without end" policies led to a complete failure to do anything of substance in the domestic arena and has not only led to economic disaster, but the interior of our infrastructure...both industrial and technological, have slowed to a trickle.
If you have a Republican incumbent in your district, vote them out and keep voting "no" until the RNC shows some capability to function in this century!
September 29th, 2008 at 5:41 pmI think it's time for the party of "personal responsibility" to get off their asses, drop their gang involvement with the short sellers, etc. and accept that personal responsibility.
If the govt. is going to raid 1,000 illegals on any given weekend, raid an equal number of wall street honchos. There appears to be no shortage of them.
September 29th, 2008 at 5:41 pm“Are you better off than you were eight years ago?”
Phuck No!
September 29th, 2008 at 5:43 pmAbove the Clouds Says:
This was a Republican bill Republicans failed to pass.
#######
Good point. This bill was originally submitted by President Bush. McCain has been stating early on that he was rallying GOP support for the bill. So we have a bill submitted by a republican president, promoted by the republican presidential nominee, and yet only 65 (out of 198) republicans voted for it.
Personally, I don't want this bill to pass. It is a flawed bill from top to bottom. It doesn't do enough to protect the average taxpayer, prevent future occurrences of the same thing (how do we know they won't be asking for more down the road?), or punish the companies that caused this crisis. If they really want to send Wall Street the message "the party is over", a big fat check is not the way to do it.
September 29th, 2008 at 5:43 pmsectionop92 Says:
I was better off when Bill Clinton was in the White House.
How could you say that when everything is Clinton's fault? ;)
William J. Clinton, President of the United States (1993-present)
September 29th, 2008 at 5:45 pmChuckySchmucky is a lying POS troll.
September 29th, 2008 at 5:46 pmFlag it out.
Chucky, dear, get some help. Please. Mad cow (BSE) is a fatal disease - and you need to be tested for it. As soon as possible.
September 29th, 2008 at 5:50 pmGood old fiat currency and fractional reserve banking have made such a wonderful mess of things. Oh, if only non-greedy people had managed these trillions of dollars. Of course, that would never happen.
And if the DJIA is 10,500 now compared to 10,800 then, and it's based on de-valued 2008 dollars, that means it might be more like 7000 in 2001 dollars.
It's a pyramid scheme that can't keep going. The 'bailout' bill would have made matters worse, kicking the can down the road. But, collapse of a fiat money system is inevitable.
Do a google video search for: "Money As Debt." It's very eye-opening.
September 29th, 2008 at 5:52 pmA lot of people are less well off than they were eight weeks ago!
September 29th, 2008 at 5:55 pmThe economy was great under Calvin Coolidge, a believer in laissez-faire. The Great Depression started under Herbert Hoover, who denounced laissez-faire. So are you saying that these things are somehow related?
They're not really.
September 29th, 2008 at 6:01 pmThese aren’t MY words:
Of course not. You're part of the propaganda distribution team, you never have any words of your own.
Who WERE those people telling regulators to stop harrassing them? That they were doing such a good job and should be left alone?
Troll, what are you referring to? Wall Street went crazy. Interest rates were too low for too long. Capital was therefore too easy and the terms too tough. Business were in over their heads. People lost jobs. Those even with healthy incomes owe more than they can afford on their homes. Own up. Be that burly conservative man Reagan championed.
Get a clue, dude. Who was lowering lending standards over the last decade, and kept lowering them?
Venture a guess. I'm not doing your homework for you.
Who was buying up all those toxic mortgages and packaging them into securities and infecting every corner of the economy with them?
I recall the revocation of the glass-steagal act, enabling the collaboration of mortgage, securities and insurance firms. The failings concern these types of companies, hence the largest and storied American firms falling or needing government aid to survive. Top examples are Countrywide (mortgage), Merril Lynch and Bear Stearns (securities), and AIG (insurance).
September 29th, 2008 at 6:02 pmSo it looks like our troll is admitting bushbaby has a deviant agenda.
September 29th, 2008 at 6:04 pmI really don't think it's a good time to start a fight with the regualrs on the board, lest you end up crying like boner about how mean we were to lil chuckster.
tony and lido
this mess has phil ashhat grahms fingerprints all over it.
Wait... I'm confused. Chucky says the problem is the fault of Democrats since they took control of Congress in 2007.
But then he produces, as evidence, a video from 2004. Refresh my memory... who was in control of Congress, the White House and the Supreme Court in 2004...?
So, obviously, Chucky Schmucky realizes that the problem has been brewing for longer than the last nineteen months. This decapitates his original point: "Are you better off now than you were two years ago, when Democrats took over Congress?"
Let's move on.
We've established that Chucky Schmucky acknowledges that the problem has its roots well before January 2007 when Democrats took control of Congress. Does Chucky really expect us to believe that in the years 2001-2006 Democrats had any kind of power at all in Washington, let alone enough power to "force banks to lend to minorities" (not quoting Chucky here; just paraphrasing the latest wingnut lying point)?
If there were programs instituted or bills passed during the Clinton administration (when Republicans ALSO controlled the Congress), then surely Republicans could have seen the danger and reversed those policies in the six years they had complete control over government, no?
Oh, well. At least Chucky is getting exercise, spinning like a dervish. It's kind of like gymnastics, isn't it?
September 29th, 2008 at 6:05 pmMcWars
The Republicans like quoting all of these nice stats to keep from believing that the economy, Bush, etc. is completely screwed. Mark Twain's famous quote of the three lies being "lies, damn lies and statistics" applies to the GOP and all their surrogates/supporters. They are all team players who benefit from this type of incestuous glad handing and profiteering that is now the possible downfall of our great Republic. So when they tout "personal responsibility" as a core concept of their party, it does not apply to those at the top who have to cannibalize everyone else to save themselves for their false & hollow beliefs.
Unless you're at the top or "working" your way up there in the GOP, you're scum. It's just that the 85% of the rest of the party doesn't understand it in that context.
September 29th, 2008 at 6:05 pmNot sure where you're getting your figures, Chucky, but here's a recent Fox Opinion Dynamics poll that pegs Congressional approval at 17% (question 5). What's interesting is that Republicans give Congress higher marks than Democrats do (20% vs. 18%). How do you figure that?
September 29th, 2008 at 6:10 pmGreat summary, section92. An easy 'recommend'.
September 29th, 2008 at 6:16 pmAlejandro Says:
The economy was great under Calvin Coolidge, a believer in laissez-faire. The Great Depression started under Herbert Hoover, who denounced laissez-faire. So are you saying that these things are somehow related?
They’re not really.
Clinton had the tech sector grow by leaps and bounds under his watch, jobs grew, infrastructure growth and management mattered, there was a budget surplus. Now show me where Clinton had his Katrina, his 9/11, the economy crash in on him because he couldn't stop himself from lowering interest rates that have now come due. Please, tell me where the economic genius is in the last eight years where it wasn't in the eight years that preceded it.
You can not wage war without raising taxes...that's a fact of war history. Bush failed miserably to please his GOP base.
September 29th, 2008 at 6:16 pmralph the wonder llama,
i can tell you where he gets 'em.
he blows them out his cheeks.
*
ain't that right, chucky?
%
September 29th, 2008 at 6:18 pmralph,
and michelle malkin
helps him with his
homework too.
*
September 29th, 2008 at 6:19 pmChuckySchmucky Says:
Are you better off now than you were two years ago, when Democrats took over Congress?
Is the mortgage market better off now, after Democrats insisted on forcing lenders to make loans to deadbeats? Or was it better before affirmative action in lending?
Much more relevant question.
Right Chuckles. The Democrats have been able to do so much in the last two years with the Republicans filibustering every piece of meaningful legislation. Besides, this financial mess started a long time ago when the Republicans started passing laws deregulating and reducing oversight on the financial industry.
Also, please direct us to the law or regulation that required banks making loans based on affirmative action or requiring that banks loan money to deadbeats. I would be really interested in seeing that legislation.
It seems to me I remember George Bush and Alan Greenspan encouraging everyone to go out there and buy a home with all the new "creative" financing that was available.
No way you and your ilk can blame this financial mess on the Democrats and you know it.
September 29th, 2008 at 6:24 pmIs hanging still legal in Texas?
September 29th, 2008 at 6:24 pmMissMolly -- Today, I get paid $15.25 an hour, and I can buy a gallon of gas for about %3.89. I now have to work just over 15 minutes to buy a gallon of gas.
Sorry for the untimely response, missmolly.
Your case is proof that the US of A can't even compensate it's
September 29th, 2008 at 6:28 pmbest and brightest well, but failed butt-kissing CEOs receive undue concern for their welfare in the form of golden parachutes.
chucky what party will
you join when the republican
party collapses?
*
i see you in the
constitutional party.
^
rank and file, of course.
#
September 29th, 2008 at 6:29 pmherr dubyah, not only the single biggest failure in US history, but the biggest failure in WORLD history. There is no denying this fact.
September 29th, 2008 at 6:30 pmCould be the theme for a new movie fuked and fukeder!
September 29th, 2008 at 6:30 pmjoe, Chuckles is going to join the MeMineIGotMineSoGoCheneyYourself party.
September 29th, 2008 at 6:30 pmEvery low-life scumbag that voted for herr dubyah owes this country an apology.
September 29th, 2008 at 6:32 pmBilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
No way you and your ilk can blame this financial mess on the Democrats and you know it.
That hasn't stopped Chucky doll and his Republinuts from trying.
September 29th, 2008 at 6:34 pmI see Schmucky has resorted to name-calling in his desperate attempt to make his awkward pile of square lying points fit into the round holes that this crisis has provided.
He does assert his beliefs as "fact" with admirable bombast, however. Gotta give 'im that.
September 29th, 2008 at 6:34 pmCheap credit. Same with Silent Cal. Clinton had nothing to do with it. It was the Fed's artificially low interest rates. These things can't go on forever. They eventually burst. The dot com bubble was bursting in about 2000 and so the Fed simply tried to shift the bubble to something else. But that doesn't work. It makes matters worse.
Go to http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np
and look up any fiscal year in the Clinton presidency. You will find no year where the national debt went down. All years, the national debt goes up. Where is the surplus? Fact is Clinton merely shuffled some SS money into the public debt and voila, claims a surplus. But it wasn't really a surplus since the total debt increased.
Look, if you MUST be partisan about this, blame Republicans for passing the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act along party lines in 1999. But you also have to blame your hero Bill Clinton for signing it (and being ALL FOR IT).
September 29th, 2008 at 6:35 pmOh. I bet Chucky Schmucky can deny it 'til the cows come home.
-- Oh! You meant "There is no credibly denying this fact". That's different
September 29th, 2008 at 6:37 pmYou're poking more holes in the sinking GOP ship by expanding upon your rants, Chucky. I'll take the linked research from this very site over your ramblings. Spending time digging in your trash bin would only give the appearance that I'm looking for something to eat when I have food in the fridge (no pun intended against Americans struggling thanks to the GOP agenda).
Start here: http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2008/09/cra_once_again.php
If you refuse to read up and insist on whining continuously, that isn't our problem.
September 29th, 2008 at 6:37 pmthere's a fine line between ballsy and bull-goose loony, and chuckleberry has run waaayyyy past it.
September 29th, 2008 at 6:38 pmfollowing an article on realclearpolitics to the NY Daily News, there's a poll:
Experienced?
How much foreign policy experience do you think Sarah Palin has?
Plenty. 2%
Enough. 8%
Very little. 9%
None. 81%
BWAAAAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
September 29th, 2008 at 6:38 pmchucky's got some palin-like comments
today - they don't make much sense but
he ain't blinkin'!
*
if you really want to
see chucky dance around
like a high jumper with atom
balm in his jock strap just
wait until after the biden/palin
debate.
#
now that's gonna be funny.
:)
September 29th, 2008 at 6:41 pmYou're confusing budget deficit for national debt.
Clinton did in fact have budget surpluses in his last four budgets (page 29).
The national debt is a separate statistic, the total debt accumulated and currently owed. We were historically a creditor nation, until about 1984 when we became a net debtor nation.
September 29th, 2008 at 6:44 pmAmericans have known for 7 years that the GOP has lied, stole and cheated. All this was done in the name of God and Country. We've had many time had the chance to stop this but did nothing. Now the GOP is setting up the worse for the American people and the next President. Yes bring in Obama and in four years watch the GOP say all this was his fault. Look it works as now Republicans say it's Bill Clinton's fault even Blacks brougt down the Economy. The famous Republican Controlled Congress with those blank checks they gave Bush are all but forgotten. Yes even the 11 Trillion dollar debt was done by Bill Clinton over the past 7 years not Bush. Paulson stepped in and encouraged banks to make subprime loans to everyone now even he is lying. Americans don't care that this group of criminals are bringing down the USA just as long as Republicans are in office. Even Sarah who might be President will continue to say let me get back to you. McCain is just out there winging it.
September 29th, 2008 at 6:45 pmjoe, what do you think Chucky would look like in a stars-and-striped bikini?
September 29th, 2008 at 6:45 pmYikes!
September 29th, 2008 at 6:50 pmIntrade now showing Obama 62.5 to McIIIrd 37.4!
Hop on your unicorn and head on back to the Ponderosa, Chucky - I hear it's $3.99 Prime Rib night.
September 29th, 2008 at 6:56 pmCondensed Chucky:
"Welfare Queens wrecked the economy"
GFY - really.
September 29th, 2008 at 7:00 pmBecause, after all, one of the defining characteristics of the leftist is to use other people’s money to fund their favorite causes, so they can think of themselves as superior and generous and smugly look down their noses at others.
Oh man that's a laugher there chuckles. You know, when you look in a mirror your left side appears to be your right side? LOL
September 29th, 2008 at 7:01 pmIs Chucky even aware that Lehman Bros., Merril Lynch, Washington Mutual, Wachovia, and on and on have all failed, as well as his bugaboos Fannie and Freddie? "Two dead bodies"? Try dozens. And the blood trails all lead back to Bush's "ownership society", McCain's obsession with deregulation and Alan Greenspan's hard-on for low interest rates.
On the other hand, I do find Chucky's aggressive certitude quite comical. So I am enjoying his performance.
September 29th, 2008 at 7:02 pmcloset racist with a rented vocabulary
maybe you should run for office as a Republican Chuckles.
September 29th, 2008 at 7:03 pmThe news should be "OBL kicks Bush's a$$ by bankrupting USA"
September 29th, 2008 at 7:05 pmWhy talk to someone like chucky folks? he just called us stalinists? This from the party of gulags and torture and governance based on loyalty to the leader. Hey chucky, gas any mosques lately?
September 29th, 2008 at 7:08 pm#17 jaramilr:
The dates don’t make a fair comparison. January 2001 was right before the dot-com bubble burst.
As Hertz says, "not quite". The dot-com bust was in 2000 (particularly in IT/telecom stuff).
FWIW, the NASDAQ to a much bigger hit on the dot-com than did the DJIA. The DJIA bounced up and down for most of 2000, whereas the NASDAQ was off quite a bit for the year.
Cheers,
September 29th, 2008 at 7:10 pmHey, ya 'spose Chucky is a member of this group?
September 29th, 2008 at 7:12 pmChucky, you're not even close to the problem Congress is trying to deal with. Search credit derivatives, credit default swaps and off balance sheet items.
The crisis in lending is that the big boys don't trust each other anymore. They expect each other to welch on their loans. Thus, they won't make them or they're charging effectively pay day loan rates.
Of course, you believe Michele Bachmann's line. In that case, you should join the hunt for that Welfare mother who took down Wall Street.
September 29th, 2008 at 7:15 pmNo one in this country is better off than they were, whether they admit it or not. Bushco's failures have diminished us all and cursed our descendants.
September 29th, 2008 at 7:21 pm83 - so am i - you should've been called on it right off the bat.
GFY.
September 29th, 2008 at 7:24 pmChuckySchmucky Says:
Yeah, that’s right — just keep ignoring all the evidence, all the statements on the record, all those who pushed for lower lending standards, those who profited from it, those who protected it, those who refused to allow reform
Do you have any links proving your case, Smucky?
Or are you just pulling this from your a$$ and waving your stinky fingers about?
Lets see your "facts" you are basing your BS on Smucky.
September 29th, 2008 at 7:25 pmWhere is that "evidence" Smucky?
September 29th, 2008 at 7:26 pmoh god -here come the link to all the Righty Stink Tanks and Talk Shows - way to go Wayne!
September 29th, 2008 at 7:28 pm(s/b links, and sorry wayne, you know what I'm talkin about)
September 29th, 2008 at 7:28 pmjust keep ignoring all the evidence, all the statements on the record,
Let me guess Chuckles, when it comes to Iraq and WMD and 911 then you were all for ignoring all the evidence and all the statements on record?
September 29th, 2008 at 7:28 pmWayne Says:
Where is that “evidence” Smucky?
*
conservatives don't believe in evidence.
just the big lie.
repeated over and
over and over again.
*
chucky, show him
how it works.
^
thank you.
#
September 29th, 2008 at 7:32 pmSigh. They weren't "bad loans", even the relative few where the buyer unwisely overreached, when the loans were signed. They became "bad loans" when the ongoing economic collapse hit the housing market.
The percentage of people who are defaulting due to irresponsibility or excess hasn't changed. What has changed is the number of people who's banks have inflicted unreasonable interest and fees to make up for their bad investments combined with an historic economic slide.
And if you really want to declare a "ground zero" one could make a strong case for Bushco's hands off approach to commodities trading in general, and oil trading in particular. When did the panic really set in? When oil, which everyone was trading to cover their losses in real estate, started going down in price and demand.
September 29th, 2008 at 7:36 pmIs this a "fact" kind of like your assertion that it all began with the Democrats taking over Congress in January, 2007? Look like it.
In fact, the first failure of the subprime, as far as I can tell, was Ownit Mortgage Solutions, which filed for Chapter 11 on Jan. 3, 2007. They owed Merrill Lynch something around $93 million at the time. next up was Mortgage Lenders Network USA Inc. which had something like $8.3 billion on the books. That was in March of that year. The following month, New Century Financial, the nation's largest subprime lender, filed Chapter 11. Then a couple months later, bear Sterns halted redemptions in two of its investment funds. Bear Sterns, you might recall, was later to get fed funding to keep it alive and then was sold to JP Morgan Chase for $2 a share, earlier this year.
Yet somehow, to Chucky, this "infection began" with Fannie and Freddie.
You are entertaining, Chucky Schmucky.
Tell us again how this is all the fault of socialist values.
September 29th, 2008 at 7:38 pmHe's copying his Maverick Hero: "what you don't understand, etc...."
stick to selling used cars Chuck.
September 29th, 2008 at 7:40 pmHi ChuckySchmucky:
September 29th, 2008 at 7:41 pmSeems like you have spent the last few hours trying to sell your expertise in this area. I be curious to know what you think the fix is since you seem to feel confident in your assessment of faults and causes perhaps you'd share your suggested solutions.
Thanks...
Excellent suggestion, dbadass! I've been so wrapped up in trying to demonstrate the flaws in Chucky Schmucky's argument that Ii completely overlooked the value he might bring to the discussion, indeed, to the nation.
Pray tell, Chucky, what is the fix?
September 29th, 2008 at 7:44 pmStill no link from Smucky to back up his drivel?
Typical troll, no facts, just stinky fingers....
September 29th, 2008 at 7:46 pmWell, at least Schmucky licks his fingers clean before he pokes us with them.
I appreciate that.
September 29th, 2008 at 7:47 pmChuckySchmucky Says: Not so much.
September 29th, 2008 at 7:48 pmAnswer me this Troll, Do you support Bush and his policies? and therefore McCain?
And you believe you're the guy to move the merchandise?
September 29th, 2008 at 7:49 pmChuckySchmucky Says:
tombaker Says: “stick to selling used cars Chuck.”
Based on the fairy tales the lemmings in here are buying, this sure seems like a good place to sell em.
So when exactly are you going to provide a link to your "evidence" Smucky?
Put up or shut the f_ck up.
September 29th, 2008 at 7:56 pmActually ChuckySchmucky, Wayne's correct he did make his request prior to mine so feel free to respond to Wayne's query first before getting back to me with your informed suggested solution(s). I look forward to both...
September 29th, 2008 at 7:58 pmNo you stupid troll. The mortgage bubble burst because the general economy caught up with the housing market. And the immediate crisis started the day oil prices started down this spring. First the oil went down, then the banks couldn't produce equity. In order to produce equity, other commercial holdings, including mortgage bundles which included some defaulted loans, went on a fire sale.
Foreclosures are up and that's bad but, banks are not failing because of delinquent payments. They are failing because of stupid, greedy, irresponsible practices in which they have indulged for decades.
They haven't always all been Republicans but, the ones who's desks currently have a sign that says "Director" or "Secretary" you can bet they are beholden to Bushco and the lack of regulation and oversight.
Once again, banks are not failing because people are missing payments. Banks are failing because they put their equity in volatile commodities and lost. They are failing because gamblers are paying off oil futures that were purchased at $140,00 a barrel. And, by defaulting on their responsibilities, every mortgage they hold is in default even if it's being paid.
Get it through your skull: The crisis isn't that people are in default to the banks. The crisis is that banks are in default to each other.
September 29th, 2008 at 7:58 pmIf you hear someone try to blame the Democrats for the bailout failing, ask them: "Whose bill was it"? The idea for the bailout was 100% Republican. The Democrats did insist in instilling some sanity in the bill, but it was still the Republicans bill. Considering the fact that the Democrats were able to get way more votes for the bill than the Republicans were, I guess pointing the finger at the Republicans is a no brainier.
If the Democrats were smart, they should announce that they were, as of tomorrow, setting up a "think tank" with all the leading economists in this country and have Warren Buffet be the chair person of the think tank. Then they should invite the Republicans to send some representatives. This think tank should come up with a recommended solution to the problem.
I don't trust the Republicans. I find it highly suspicious that our economy went from "not doing too well" to "it's a crisis of epic proportions" in two days.
September 29th, 2008 at 7:59 pmWayne, Wayne, Wayne... you're taking Schmucky the wrong way.
Chucky Schmucky isn't here to convince us (if he were, he'd have better arguments). He's here to entertain us.
I find if you feed him certain lines -- facts, for instance -- he does the most amusing dance you've ever seen! Trying not to step on the facts, struggling to leap from one unwarranted conclusion to the next... it's really quite comical.
I suggest you relax, crack a cold one and enjoy.
Now DANCE, Schmucky! Dance!
September 29th, 2008 at 8:00 pmherr dubyah has been in office for 8 years and the reich-wingers still state every failure is Clinton's fault. Priceless
September 29th, 2008 at 8:08 pmIt all traces back, ultimately, to Reagonomics!
September 29th, 2008 at 8:09 pmOuch
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/
September 29th, 2008 at 8:09 pmWatching the troll try to discuss the economy is like watching Bush and McCain discuss the internets. Even though he may use "economic phrases" it is so utterly clear to anyone who actually works in finance that he doesn't have a clue what the hell he is talking about. But go ahead and embarrass yourself further, it's kind of funny to us who work on Wall Street (not all companies are stupid, corrupt and collapsing). You being on the membership committee of your trailer park, not the same thing. Sorry, just isn't Trollie.
September 29th, 2008 at 8:10 pmOh, good! Chucky's using his "McCain derision" technique, where he dismisses anyone else's ideas as "uninformed".
Heeheehee. Good one, Chucky!
I always love to see bathos in a troll's work. Some might call it irony, but I prefer to think of it as bathos.
September 29th, 2008 at 8:12 pmThings really took a turn for the worse in January 2007 when the Democrats took back Congress.
September 29th, 2008 at 8:13 pmOops, sorry about that. Thanks ralph the wonder llama (#21) and zuch (#84) for correcting my bad memory. Looks like a fair and scary comparison after all.
September 29th, 2008 at 8:14 pmChuckySchmucky:
September 29th, 2008 at 8:15 pmSo about those suggestions?
Seems like the trolls are really trying to get that $.10 a post, maybe they deep down know their illusion of GOP competence is crumbling and they will be some of the first casulaties of this new economy? Or they're just really dumb and crazy???
September 29th, 2008 at 8:19 pmPlease name the piece or pieces of legislation authored by the Democrats that is/are responsible for herr dubyah's failed economy.
We'll wait for your answer....
September 29th, 2008 at 8:23 pmPlease explain what practical effect this had on the situation, in your view.
If you choose to stick around and chat this time, that is.
Thanks.
September 29th, 2008 at 8:23 pmDemocrats have failed to open up new oil drilling for energy. Also, they have prevented new nuclear power plants. They have also failed to extend the tax cuts.
September 29th, 2008 at 8:28 pmdbadass Says:
ChuckySchmucky:
So about those suggestions?
*
he's still trying to recover from
Dr. Hussein Matt's #116 comment.
#
ouch is right!
*
September 29th, 2008 at 8:28 pmI don't need more oil...
September 29th, 2008 at 8:30 pmThe DOW is down 777 points isn't that a lucky number?
Don't we win a prize for that?
"Small Business Continues to Drive US Economy"
http://www.allbusiness.com/operations/3872647-1.html
Yea it's a few years old (2005) but ther are some good
September 29th, 2008 at 8:31 pmfacts there also, small banks are doing well regardless of
the tanking stock market.
Do we really to bailout the stock market?
Stupid troll:
How many major investment banks collapsed before oil started down? How many since?
Oil and commodity exchange isn't the only reason, any more than defaulted mortgages by single home owners. But, I must again remind you, most of the "bad paper" doesn't consist of defaulted loans. It includes all debt, including mortgages which have a balance exceeding the equity but are not in default.
Most people are still making their payments on time even if they, and their creditors, are losing ground to property value loss and other economic downturns. And the image you invoke, of squatters hunkered down in darkened houses they couldn't really afford, is a myth.
And placing a significant portion of the blame on people who got caught by circumstances for a world economic collapse is asinine. Especially when much of the blame for that collapse can be laid squarely on U.S. foreign policy.
And as for the Wall Street crisis? The problem is that banks can't pay each other. I have yet to see anything that convinces me that people have simply stopped paying their banks leading to collapse. Home foreclosures are a symptom, not a cause.
September 29th, 2008 at 8:31 pmWas this in response to Dr. Hussein Matt's and my questions above?
If so, can you explain how any of these energy issues could have affected the economy over the past two years?
And can you explain how long we should have to wait before the tax cuts will deliver the robust economy we've been promised for eight years?
Thanks.
September 29th, 2008 at 8:33 pmot but you have got
to check this out
on youtube.
fred and ginger they ain't
:)!
September 29th, 2008 at 8:34 pmHow come the GOPigs didn't do anything when they had the majority in the house and senate with a reich-wing president in the WH?
September 29th, 2008 at 8:34 pmdittohead jibberish.
rented vocabularies.
low-mileage, one-owner LeSabre - no money down.
September 29th, 2008 at 8:36 pmBy the way... did Chucky Schmucky ever say whether HE was better off than he was eight years ago?
I don't recall him saying either way...
September 29th, 2008 at 8:40 pmHey ralph, why is it they scatter when engaged politely...
September 29th, 2008 at 8:45 pmdbadass, I think it's because we're so kind and polite that we're cruel about it.
September 29th, 2008 at 8:48 pmTHanks for that link, joe cantwell.
Frightening, isn't it? A recorded conversation with a voter is "Gotcha Journalism!™"
I guess it is, when you're not really prepared to stand by your words.
That's some "Straight Talk!™"
September 29th, 2008 at 8:49 pmGooper ShmuckyUpChucky? No answers?
Let's make it simple.
1. DO YOU SUPPORT BUSH/MCCAIN?
2. ARE YOU BETTER OFF NOW THAN 8 YEARS AGO?
We will wait.
September 29th, 2008 at 8:50 pmChuckles must have been thrown off the computer, his mom needed it.
September 29th, 2008 at 9:00 pmOkay, but how does that explain marwick's sudden disappearance?
September 29th, 2008 at 9:06 pmMarkick is chuckles younger brother.....?
September 29th, 2008 at 9:11 pmI'm convinced it has more to do with the "killing them softly strategy" It seems to throw them
September 29th, 2008 at 9:15 pmWolf Blitzer called on financial expert Glenn Beck to explain the problem. Beck said there is nothing wrong with capitalism, the problem is GREED. I thought capitalism was supposed to run on greed.
September 29th, 2008 at 9:48 pmMcCain campaign said it was all Obama's fault. From Salon.com:
"Barack Obama failed to lead, phoned it in, attacked John McCain, and refused to even say if he supported the final bill," McCain senior policy advisor Douglas Holtz-Eakin said in an e-mail to reporters. "This bill failed because Barack Obama and the Democrats put politics ahead of country."
September 29th, 2008 at 9:56 pmIt is wondrous to watch the GOP trying to spin their long-deserved implosion. It might prove worth the price of a panic bailout just to watch the spectacle.
They try to pin bank collapses, banks who trade in billions of dollars a day, on people who are a few grand behind. Then they try to blame the failure of a bad piece of legislation on the Dems when they can't get half their own delegation to support it. And it's positively bizarre for the McSpin campaign to fault Obama's efforts when Flippy's own party voted against it in bigger numbers.
Another day in the United Surreal States of America.
September 29th, 2008 at 10:11 pmAnd ol' Flippy McSpin took credit for stopping the first vote on an unamended bill. Then he took credit for getting the compromise to the floor. Now he wants to blame the Dems for not passing it?
September 29th, 2008 at 10:16 pmpete,
the republican party
is no more.
just as chucky.
*
chucky?
#
see?
*
good luck.
!
September 29th, 2008 at 10:18 pmjoe,
the guilty
climbing the gallows
scream in impotent rage
at those who sought to save them from
their folly
September 29th, 2008 at 10:31 pmSorry about the OT but, this is too good. Flippy and Chippy decided to explain her Pakistan comment. It was a "gotcha question".
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/PALIN_PAKISTAN?SITE=PASCR&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
September 29th, 2008 at 10:38 pmpete,
i wish chucky was still here.
i want him to translate this for me.
from sarah:
"Yeah, well especially in that region, though, we have to protect those who do seek democracy and support those who seek protections for the people who live there. What we're seeing in the last couple of days here in New York is a President of Iran, Ahmadinejad, who would come on our soil and express such disdain for one of our closest allies and friends, Israel ... and we're hearing the evil that he speaks and if hearing him doesn't allow Americans to commit more solidly to protecting the friends and allies that we need, especially there in the Mideast, then nothing will."
anybody want a crack at it?
*
September 29th, 2008 at 10:44 pmMaybe the woman from the movie Airplane: "Excuse me stewardess, I speak jive" is available, perhaps she also speaks gibberish
September 29th, 2008 at 10:53 pmblue state bob Says:
Maybe the woman from the movie Airplane: “Excuse me stewardess, I speak jive” is available, perhaps she also speaks gibberish
oh no bob,
it's palinese.
and only the glue sniffing
right wingnuts respond to it.
*
September 29th, 2008 at 11:03 pmChucky, apparently you didn't look at the graph showing the relative contribution of subprime to other mortgage related securities. Regular mortgage, commercial and other asset backed securities make up over 80% securitized debt the last 8 years.
If the problem is restricted to sub-prime securitized mortgages as you suggest, then why is the Treasury bailout taking an "all of the above" approach to buying back distressed assets?
And why are they buying back credit default swaps? They're supposed to be the "peace of mind coverage" for securitized debt. The credit derivative market is unregulated.
Poor people didn't package and sell credit "coverage" and then bail on their commitments. The big money boys did.
Worldwide central banks pushed $200 billion into the markets today. But that money won't move around with the big money boys scared to loan to each other.
Pay day loan rates aren't just for poor people anymore. Goldman, Morgan, and Merrill now get their turn.
September 29th, 2008 at 11:13 pmjoe,
If I tried to make sense of Ms. Palin, even with the help of a troll translator, it would cause me deep psychological harm. Merely hearing, or reading, her words makes my brain cells threaten suicide.
September 29th, 2008 at 11:22 pmChucky, what did you find out about off balance sheet items, especially in regard to derivatives, all forms, not just credit.
And leverage, can you look that up as well? Publicly traded Carlyle Capital Corporation specialized in mortgage backed securities. They leveraged their equity 39 or so to 1. When trends turned unfavorable, that sharp edge turned inward.
Funny, their rollup has a chance of garnering more if the Treasury plan passes. Yes, that's the same Carlyle Group, Bush and his daddy once worked for. George W. was on the board of CaterAir, a Carlyle affiliate.
September 29th, 2008 at 11:30 pmIt looks like Schmucky disappeared. I hope he got renditioned.
September 29th, 2008 at 11:50 pmI bet he's trying to respond but has been rendered impotent. Fortunately that's a condition he's used to.
September 29th, 2008 at 11:51 pmChucky, more education on Carlyle. WaPo had a piece on how they plan to make money in the crisis:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/28/AR2008092802218.html?sid=ST2008092800943&s_pos=
September 29th, 2008 at 11:57 pmYes, I believe Grampy said this immediately before he said it wasn't time to cast blame.
September 30th, 2008 at 12:26 amKeith Says:
Wolf Blitzer called on financial expert Glenn Beck to explain the problem. Beck said there is nothing wrong with capitalism, the problem is GREED. I thought capitalism was supposed to run on greed.
The problem with asking Glenn Beck to talk about economics is that he's the Sarah Palin of money matters. It's like asking a drunk who isn't off the sauce what's wrong with drinking...and it's all the bottles fault for being there and going in the drinker's mouth.
Senator Glenn wants to blame every entitlement program that could be fixed with just a tenth of that bailout money, but blames those programs instead of his buddies he's enabled, drank with and played grab a$$ with. It's everyone else who screwed up and Glenn wants to make sure all the elderly and incompetent racist kool aid guzzlers and bible thumpers who watch his show don't hang a$$ clowns like Darrell Issa from a tree.
In Glenn's world, if you're a minority who defaulted on a home loan it's the minority family who is homeless and not the mortgage company, real estate agent, credit policies, slash and burn percentage cuts to "stimulate" the markets or the rampant deregulation that has gone unchecked. No. It's those crazy people of color and their home loan default pyramid schemes! If Glenn was any sharper, he'd be cutting playdough in a kindergarten class.
September 30th, 2008 at 1:10 amAre you better off than you were eight years ago?»
This means 'financial'... but 'well being' is most important therefore F NO is the answer. Never before have I felt so embarrassed, ashamed over what our country has done.
September 30th, 2008 at 1:56 amChucky, more education opportunities avail themselves daily.
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/research-markets-how-carlyle-fund/story.aspx?guid=%7BCC7AB341-931F-4ACF-ACBD-BD0DD3FE2422%7D&dist=hppr
September 30th, 2008 at 4:07 pm