Fact-Checking ‘Joe The Plumber’
Fact-Checking ‘Joe The Plumber’
During a campaign stop in Ohio this week, Ohio plumbing business owner Sam Joe Wurzelbacher questioned Barack Obama about his plan to increase taxes for the top five percent of income earners. Noting that he was planning to purchase a company that “makes” between $250,000 and $280,000, Wurzelbacher wondered what impact Obama’s tax plan would have on him.
Last night, “Joe the Plumber” was first invoked by John McCain to attack Obama’s tax plan. He was referenced 23 times by the candidates. After the debate, Wurzelbacher applauded McCain: “He’s got it right as far as I go.” But Joe is ill-informed.
Jake Tapper reports that it’s not even clear if the figures Wurzelbacher cited take expenses into account. If his net profit is below $250,000, “Joe the Plumber” would be eligible for an Obama tax cut. Dean Baker explains that, under Obama’s plan, the tax on income above $250,000 would increase by 3 percentage points from 33 percent to 36 percent — which means that, if his net profits are above $250,000, Wurzelbacher could expect to see his tax bill rise by between $0-$900, hardly a crippling blow to his small business.
Wurzelbacher told the CBS Morning News that he feels like he’s being “used by the Republican Party as a pawn to make their point.” During a press conference this morning, “Joe the Plumber” answered some questions from the media. He said he was “bothered” by the fact that his name was invoked so many times. “To be honest with you, I’m sure Obama didn’t want my name mentioned,” he said. “I wish they had talked about, you know, more important issues.” Watch it:
Wurzelbacher isn’t just wrong about Obama’s tax plan — he’s also misguided about a few other things. Here’s a sampling of what he told the press this morning:
– “Social Security’s a joke. I have parents. I don’t need another set of parents called the government. Let me take my money and invest it how I please. Social Security, I’ve never believed in, don’t like it, hate that it’s forced on me.”
– “I’m not sorry that we’re in Iraq. … We’ve liberated another country. I mean, you know, freedom. … I don’t know if you guys are Christians or not, but it’s like someone coming to Jesus and becoming saved. These guys have freedom. … Has it kept us safe? Absolutely. I believe in that 100 percent.”
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Holy crap! Joe's a nut job!
October 16th, 2008 at 11:19 amYeah, well, where's the part where Joe says that when Obama was talking to him he "tap danced more than Sammy Davis Jr."
UGH.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:20 am“I’m not sorry that we’re in Iraq. … We’ve liberated another country. I mean, you know, freedom. … I don’t know if you guys are Christians or not, but it’s like someone coming to Jesus and becoming saved.
Joe the Plumber is Parodyll?
October 16th, 2008 at 11:25 amAnd I thought he had a government job is West Virginia.
TP - Can anyone do a fact check on this guy? Is he actually a plumber? Bill Press said he had an interview posted on a right-wing blog already. Very suspicious that this guy's comments fit perfectly into McShame's messaging.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:27 amJoe the plumber has spent so much time smelling other people's shit that it has become natural for him to accept the GOP talking points and lies as something very familiar to him. On another note, McCain uses this guy as an example of the average blue collar worker?? Last I saw most plumbers, especially the ones running their own businesses make a heck of a lot more than this proud union worker. 280 grand a year? Poor, poor Joe the plumber. Hey Joe, why don't you go Cheney your uninformed self, you shit sniffing FOX watching wealthy LIV?
October 16th, 2008 at 11:27 amobviously, there's not a whole lot of nuance to a shit clogged drain.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:28 amThis was posted by someone (not me) over on Huffpo.
Check it out for yourself and see what you think.
*********Go to the below link & type in Joe's last name "Wurzelbacher" & find out how many Wurzelbacher's WERE and ARE licensed as a plumber in Ohio ...
http://elicense1-lookup.com.ohio.gov/SearchCriteria.asp
You"ll need to type in:
Board: Ohio Construction Industry Licensing Board
Last Name: Wurzelbacher
State: Ohio
Results: the ONLY Wurzelbacher is Lawrence NOT JOE (must be Joe's first name) and Wurzelbacher's license EXPIRED in 2002.**********
October 16th, 2008 at 11:29 amI don’t know if you guys are Christians or not, but it’s like someone coming to Jesus and becoming saved.
I assume Joe, being all Christian, considers Jesus to be a Savior.
Therefore, Joe essentially thinks George Bush is a savior.
Joe is brain damaged.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:29 amOdd that this illiterate moron would bring up christians and Iraq because under Saddam christians enjoyed peace and freedom now they are running for their lives I guess it depends on where the christian is located. If it's an american christian we doing good things in Iraq If it's an Iraqi christian screwum they just brown people anyway
October 16th, 2008 at 11:31 amMy money is on "Joe The Plumber" being just another Republican fraud.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:31 ameverybody should leave Joe alone. He is one man entitled to his opinion and pick on him and you're going to give life to a whole new round of distraction. He'll leave the scene on his own accord when he gets sick of it by the end of the day.
One funny thought I had, with all the original scuttle butt over his full name and whether he is registered, wouldn't it just be classic if he lost his right to vote in the Republican's attempted purge of 200k+ voters from the Ohio registration rolls. I'd love to see his interview after discovering that one.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:32 ami can haz toilet!
October 16th, 2008 at 11:32 amJohn McCain:
Keating
&
Cheating
Say it aint so, joe, please, say it aint so
October 16th, 2008 at 11:32 amThats not what I wanna hear, joe and I got the right to know
Say it aint so, joe, please, say it aint so
Im sure, theyre telling us lies, joe,
Please, tell us it aint so
I think Joe should plan his next vacation in Iraq, so he can witness first hand what liberation Bush-style has wrought there.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:34 amThe plumbing business must be real slow these days. Instead of spending all day complaining to the press about taxes, Joe should get to work if he wants to make enough money to buy that business.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:34 amJoe the Plummer can never replace Mike the Plummer from Desperate Housewives.
Now most McCain supporters are confused and say anything. Joe the Plummer got his 15 minutes of fame as McCain used him. If Joe really wants to buy the business he works for he will need a loan from the bank and that's not happening. I do feel sorry for Republican voters as their between a rock and a hard place. Voting for McCain the idiot and his side kick flirting Sarah or Obama/Biden who can get us out of this mess. Joe the Plummer will have to decide if he really wants that business he'll have to vote for Obama/Biden.
As to the note about being a Christian. All Chistians that have really read the Bible know that Judges 4;6 speaks of a Prophet name Barack.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:36 amshoeless Says:
The plumbing business must be real slow these days.
In reality I bet it is. Work in the building trades is rapidly drying up. Joe might find himself in a much lower tax bracket come next year.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:36 amjohnfyounger Says:
-------------------------------------------------------------...wouldn’t it just be classic if he lost his right to vote in the Republican’s attempted purge of 200k+ voters from the Ohio registration rolls.
Oh, I didn't know he is black.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:36 amjohnfyounger Says: everybody should leave Joe alone. He is one man entitled to his opinion and pick on him and you’re going to give life to a whole new round of distraction. He’ll leave the scene on his own accord when he gets sick of it by the end of the day.
But look what we did for Sarah Palin by picking her apart in public...
Ignoring the Conservatives is a dangerous mindset that has lost us too many elections. We must face them, expose their lies, and then offer viable strategies. There's a reason Obama is ahead in these Republican-biased polls. It's because he didn't tolerate their intolerance.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:38 amI also find it funny of the reports that he had tv crews in his home watching him watch the debate. How convenient.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:39 amHere's what else Joe the alleged Plumber said today: on NBC's Today Show this morning (but probably taped last night), he told David Gregory that he thinks that our borders should be closed, and that anyone here who doesn't belong here "should be bused back across the border".
It was at that point that I stopped having any sympathy for Joe the alleged Plumber and started realizing that he may easily have been nothing but a plant by the McCaign campaign -- planted in front of Obama during his Ohio swing earlier this week to talk to Obama on camera and thereby give Johnny boy something to talk about last night when he wasn't talking about Ayres and ACORN.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:39 amJackie Says:
As to the note about being a Christian. All Chistians that have really read the Bible know that Judges 4;6 speaks of a Prophet name Barack.
Yeah, isn't it funny that they make such a big deal about Obama's Arab middle name, but no one ever mentions the fact that Barack is a Jewish name.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:39 amtens of thousands of Expired Iraqi civilians are not really feeling saved at all Joe. I think the term they would use is dead! How is that freedom again? Or how about the millions displaced from their homes and living in other countries? They aren't very free Joe. Or do you not count those people because they do not actually live in Iraq anymore.
Whackadoodle! I hope you are better at plumbing than you are at listening, watching, and understanding! Otherwise don't bother buying that business. It will end up like McCain's campaign. In the toilet rather than fixing it!
October 16th, 2008 at 11:39 amYou think this is another Jeff Gannon in the making?? Seriously, I think this guy is a complete fraud.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:41 amshoeless Says: Yeah, isn’t it funny that they make such a big deal about Obama’s Arab middle name, but no one ever mentions the fact that Barack is a Jewish name.
That's because the Fundies don't read - bible(s) or otherwise :)
October 16th, 2008 at 11:42 amMy thoughts exactly. Why hasn't this obviously fabricated registration been purged from the rolls? Aren't Republicans in Ohio concerned with the "integrity of the vote"???
What?
You say, "IOKIYAR"?
I see. Thanks.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:44 amgitrdone Says:
You think this is another Jeff Gannon in the making??
___________
Don't forget Matt Sanchez... I'm sure O'Rally hasn't.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:46 amYou know, Joe, you are making a fool of yourself. Your 15 minutes of fame are up, now go back to clogged nozzles and other easy things.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:48 amI recall thinking last night that John McCain actually managed to get one thing right: Joe is rich. If he's making $250K, what income percentile does that put him in? Ninety-something I'm sure, quite likely ninety-five. That's rich. There's nothing wrong with being rich (by most definitions I'm rich too), I'm not saying we should soak the rich just on general principle, but when McCain tries to go to bat for Joe Plumber he only plays into the impression that he only cares about rich people. I thought it was a particularly stupid move on his part, and I was disappointed that Obama didn't capitalize on it.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:48 amJoe wants to buy $250,000 business to run it straight into the ground. Tax hike? Try write-offs. He doesn't appear smart enough to be even greedy.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:49 am“To be honest with you, I’m sure Obama didn’t want my name mentioned,” he said. “I wish they had talked about, you know, more important issues.”
Well, ok, he's not too stupid.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:51 ambeing conservative and expressing his opinion isn't a crime. -although John McCain's over reliance on the condescending reference might be ;). My point would be that the tactic didn't rate well last night because people felt they were being talked down to. Let it go, because people also don't like to see an "average guy" skewered for expressing himself, flaws and all. He's got a great story to tell his grand kids someday. Let's not give it any more power. Even he seems to think the whole thing is silly by this morning.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:52 amLike many "christian" plumbers I've seen advertised - dealing with the sewage of their fellow man really pegs the ol' sufferometer.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:52 amIt is people like him that vote John McCain. I don't know if there's anything that can be done to reverse it.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:52 amohnfyounger Says: everybody should leave Joe alone
Weeve mee awone. Weeve me awone. WAAAAAAAAAAAH!
It's an election season, STEWPID!
October 16th, 2008 at 11:53 amSay it ain`t so Joe, “I’m not sorry that we’re in Iraq. … We’ve liberated another country. I mean, you know, freedom. … I don’t know if you guys are Christians or not, but it’s like someone coming to Jesus and becoming saved. These guys have freedom. … Has it kept us safe? Absolutely. I believe in that 100 percent.”What does Jesus have to do with Iraq, Bushco shoved democracy down their throats at the point of a gun,did Jesus do that to his desciples or any of his follwers?
October 16th, 2008 at 11:56 amI guess it is appropriate that McSame used a "plumber" to try to get his campaign out of the toilet
October 16th, 2008 at 11:58 amjohnfyounger Says: Even he seems to think the whole thing is silly by this morning.
But only because liberal blogs spotlighted him and proved that he was little more than another desperate attempt by McCain to lose by something less than a landslide.
I think McCain knows he's going to lose. He's just trying to keep it from being a serious pounding. After all, he has to go back to the Senate and actually try to be relevent. That should be interesting.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:59 amWith the exception of his statement “I wish they had talked about, you know, more important issues.”, I don't give a fukc what Joe thinks.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:59 amcome shill with me, come kill with me
October 16th, 2008 at 12:00 pmjohnfyounger Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He’s got a great story to tell his grand kids someday.
Really? Do you think it's a good idea for him to tell his grandkids about the days when he was a stealth Republican operative posing as a plumber in order to fool the public. I guess if his grandkids turn out to be Republicans, they will enjoy the story.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:01 pm"If his net profit is below $250,000, “Joe the Plumber” would be eligible for an Obama tax cut."
Well Joe you better make sure your profits stay below $250K.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:01 pmIs his fifteen minutes of fame up now? Let's move on!
October 16th, 2008 at 12:02 pmPlease keep Joe far away from my pipes and toilet. He'd probably have the sewer running through the kitchen sink from the sounds of his logic. Wow, so that's a McCain supporter.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:02 pmSorry johnny, joe stuck his own nose into the fray. No one forced him to do that unless it comes out that he was actually a republican plant which I suspect is true.
Joe “the Plumber” Wurzelbacher related to Charles “the Crook” Keating. Oops.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Scalcar Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is people like him that vote John McCain. I don’t know if there’s anything that can be done to reverse it.
No, I don't think stupidity is reversible.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:03 pmJoe must work for the most successful plumbing business in the country if he and McCain think Joe will take in well over 250k a year in profits just from the plumbing business.
But this guy isn't a McCain plant. Noooo....
http://www.sunstateactivist.org/ssablog/
October 16th, 2008 at 12:03 pmI agree and think it is very important to provide context for "Joe the Plumber." But I also see too much hate spewing personal attacks about him in the comments. I like this blog and it is one of my frequent reads, and hope I am not considered a troll for pointing out the proclivity for ranting here. Maybe this is just people's outlet, but come on ...
October 16th, 2008 at 12:04 pmHilarious that the Repubs thought this guy wouldn't get exposed.
Are they still banking on the corporate media being in their pocket or are they really this incompetent?
BTW: Jazz Musicians for Obama
19 days!
October 16th, 2008 at 12:04 pm“Social Security’s a joke."
He will be singing a different tune when he is 65...Joe, you are an idiot.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:04 pmTracy, do you make more than $250,000/year?
October 16th, 2008 at 12:04 pmIs Joe a plumber? Or just plum loco...?
====
October 16th, 2008 at 12:05 pmTracy is a phony loser that likes to PRETEND he's rich enough to qualify for Republican Tax breaks
In reality, he will probably get a tax break from Obama.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:06 pmshoeless Says: Tracy, do you make more than $250,000/year?
shoeless, it depends on how many posts to liberal blogs he makes. Let's see, if the going rate is 10 cents per post... Oh well, maybe he can earn a McCain/Palin bumper sticker - made in China!
October 16th, 2008 at 12:07 pmObama is the man who supports those of us that are not rich enough for welfare from right wingers.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:07 pmTracy__5 Says:
Well Joe you better make sure your profits stay below $250K.
_____________
NET profits? That's AFTER expenses are deducted from gross income?
Well, shi'ite... there's good money in that thar crap...
Joe the Plumber ain't poor if his NET PROFITS are $250,000/yr.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:07 pmchristopher wiwi Says: did Jesus do that to his desciples or any of his follwers?
Well, actually:
October 16th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
i'm sure joe's a nice guy.
but he's an idiot.
*
October 16th, 2008 at 12:10 pmIf you think it's important then why are you so "concerned"?
By the way, who made our politics so bitter and nasty? Can we say lee attwater which is the playbook for the gop.
You really need to stick to an issue instead of wagging a finger at us.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:10 pmat first I thought he could be a plant, but remember, Obama showed up in that neighborhood unannounced. And while McCain's use of him is contrived, Joe is way to off message and has probably already outlived his effectiveness as a water carrier for painting Obama in a negative light.
Fred, Him voicing his opinion is no excuse to get out of line about the whole thing.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:10 pmYeah, those investments would be doing really well right now. Many people have seen all their investments become worthless and without SS, they would have nothing at this point.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:11 pmjohnfyounger Says: Maybe this is just people’s outlet, but come on …
After the last 8 years of Bush, I think this is tame.
We could compare this to a Sarah Palin rally. I think we know which side is known for resorting to the sword and which to the pen...
By the way, sarcasm isn't hate.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:12 pmAwesome! i HOPE they use him to death because he looks like a Right Wing nut, a plant, and it makes the Repugs look even more desperate. And the fact he is related to Charles Keating is just downright hysterical.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:12 pmRe: #7:
One more thing about the amazing, unlicensed Joe the "Plumber"--If you do a Yellow Pages search for the business listed for the only Wurzelbacher listed in the Ohio Board of Certification's Plumber data-base (Lawrence, the one whose license expired in '02), you'll find that the business, "Plumb Crazy" isn't there anymore. How many $250k-per year service businesses do you know that aren't listed in the yellow pages?
October 16th, 2008 at 12:12 pmRantingTommy Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tracy is a phony loser that likes to PRETEND he’s rich enough to qualify for Republican Tax breaks
I know. He claims to be an architect who refuses to hire union construction workers becuase he doesn't care if the workmanship is shoddy as long as he doesn't have to pay a decent wage. Even if he is an architect, I doubt that many people want to hire him. The lawsuits from your building falling down would be prohibitive.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:13 pmHe's purchasing a plumbing company?
October 16th, 2008 at 12:15 pmThat's not exactly the same as being a plumber.
If he were a plumber, wouldn't he just start his own company?
How much does a company with $250,000 of revenue a year cost? A million? Two million?
A companjy that made $250,000 PROFIT a year would have to cost at least 2.5M.
Soe 'Joe The Plumber" is spending millions of dollars to acquire a company --and he's a working class icon?
Something's not right here.
But he hasn't oulived his usefulness for us showing that he was just a watercarrier for mccain and injecting negativity into the campaign.
By the way, I am just voicing my opinion too and you are the one who is out of line not me. Please don't call me down again.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:16 pmRantingTommy Says: Tracy is a phony loser that likes to PRETEND he’s rich enough to qualify for Republican Tax breaks
In reality, he will probably get a tax break from Obama.
Architects only make that kind of money when they area partner is a substantial firm with private clientele. It's rare for architects to make that kind of money unless they are in high demand due to serious awards and connections.
Tracy already revealed that he works for someone else doing government military work. I'd bet he's in the $80k pay range.
I'd also bet that he thinks he'll one day be a partner is a substantial firm with private clientele (why he's Republican). The problem is, he's on the wrong path by doing government work. He should be working for S.O.M. pulling 70 hours per week, while majorily sucking up to the current partners, and not in here trying to argue over his intellectual level.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:17 pmWow. I knew right-wingers were selfish, but I didn't realize they were also so spiteful that they would rather make less money than give any of it to the government to help pay for, oh, I don't know... wars, maybe? Or corporate welfare?
Nope. If there is even the slightest chance that a poor person might somehow benefit from living in the wealthiest nation the world has ever known, then they're totally agin' it.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:17 pmIs Joe ex-military? Because then he could be come an uncredentialed teacher when the McBlinky adminstration implements its genius education plans.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:23 pmunbelievable, as I've stated in comments from previous posts, I would in no way equate negative comments here with what has transpired at Sarah Palin rallies. but bashing Joe the plumber feels pathetic to me (and just what John McCain would like for you to do, as it is the only type of behavior that can still give life to his hollow campaign).
Joe is a Christian, he thinks we should be in Iraq, that Barak Obama is going to tax him too much, that social security stinks, and that he might be being used for political purposes at the moment. He has some charisma, a ton of media on his lawn this morning, and some views that currently lay outside the mainstream at the moment.
There are a lot bigger, more important things to focus on- like the stock market tanking again yesterday, that recent reports have circumstances disintegrating in Afghanistan, that we have a President in office for another 100 days or so that is the worst in our history and I am still not convinced that something else cataclysmic might happen because of his ineptitude during that time ,,, whatever.
We are entitled to scrutiny based on how prominently Joe featured into last night's debate. Joe is entitled to his opinion without being slandered.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:26 pmJoe looks like a skinhead poster boy for the militia movement. After his comments there can be little doubt.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:28 pmjohnfyounger Says: (and just what John McCain would like for you to do, as it is the only type of behavior that can still give life to his hollow campaign).
I repeat myself - look what it did to Sarah Palin by exposing her for who she really was.
Pointing out McCain's lies is not bashing Joe the Plumber, who isn't exactly Joe-Sixpack if he's earning $250k, it's showing that McCain is lying, yet again.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:30 pm"joe the plumber"?... how apropos.
joe's sounds like textbook cointelpro working the neocon angle on foreign policy. notice how he self-edits based on broadcast region/demographic... "is any of this national?"
and spreading democracy in iraq? smells like victory?
wow, if i didn't think this guy was a cookie-cutter neocon shill, i'd say please give him his tax break now so he can run out and buy a clue.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:31 pmjohnfyounger Says:
Excuse me! You now accuse us of slander?
You seem to forget, John mccain used this mans name on a public debate forum before millions of people. Who the hell are you?
October 16th, 2008 at 12:31 pmImagine McCain sitting at the table with G8 leaders, rolling his eyes, throwing up his hands, and using sarcasm to dismiss others. ......................
October 16th, 2008 at 12:32 pmhttp://thefiresidepost.com/2008/10/16/note-to-mccain-sarcasm-is-toxic/
Joe shaves his head. A sure sign of madness...
====
October 16th, 2008 at 12:32 pmunbelievable,
and perhaps your comments were not slander, but I read here that he is a skinhead poster boy for the militia movement, a republican plant, a shit clogged drain, another Republican fraud, brain damaged ...
and to make clear my views on Sarah Palin's behavior: she has been disgraceful and shown a willingness to play to people's worst instincts by inciting hatred. I wouldn't vote for her for city dog catcher.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:35 pmFred Says: Excuse me! You now accuse us of slander?
Sounds like Republican tactics...
October 16th, 2008 at 12:36 pmjohnfyounger Says:
Change the subject johnny. Your concern wears thin.
joe was used as a political pawn. He is in the game. Blame mccain, not us..
October 16th, 2008 at 12:38 pmjohnfyounger Says: and perhaps your comments were not slander,
You've made your point. I've made mine. No need to keep repeating ourselves. There are there threads for discourse on TP if you don't care for the comments in this section.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:38 pmdood, (and when I say dood, I mean unbelievable and Fred)
I am as liberal as you get. I just get tired of all this echo chamber bs. hate is hate. intolerance is intolerance. Sarah Palin rally hate fests are not equivalent to ranting on liberal blogs. But for godsakes, you make me want to vote for Joe the plumber when you're through with him. And I don't agree with a single word that comes out of his mouth.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:39 pmenough from me, I am sick of Joe the plumber already. I bet the rest of the country is before the evening news.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:40 pmOver at Democratic Underground they are linking this guy to a member of the Keating 5. Poor old McCain just keeps crashing.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:41 pmWe can't let stupid inaccurate lies pass without being challenged. Joe is either intentionally misleading or a delusional fool. It is the responsible thing to do to point that out in no uncertain terms.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:43 pmJoe the plumber, Joe the plumber, Joe the plumber, Joe the plumber is a McCain campaign plant.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:45 pmjohnfyounger Says: dood, (and when I say dood, I mean unbelievable and Fred)
I'm not a dude.
Why do people automatically assume that about the women in here who have non-genderized names?
There are a lot of women who post here, but refuse to call ourselves 'political grrrl' or 'lady liberty' .
October 16th, 2008 at 12:46 pmJoe is one of the Americans that Bush lied to and still believes the lies.
Joe still believes that Sadam was behind 9-11.
Very sad how Bush was able to brainwash so many.
96 days to the end of bush-cheney-mccain et al.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:47 pmdood is meant as a term of affection. it is also (in my book anyway) gender neutral.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:49 pmEnough about Joe, already. Ohg Rea Tone, I'm also a bit surprised that McCain's demeanor during the debate hasn't been discussed more. Doesn't anyone remember how much trouble Gore got in for a few sighs and eye-rolls once? How it supposedly alienated viewers, made him seem like an elitist prig? So now McCain comes along, spends the whole debate exhibiting every kind of eye-roll, glare, sneer and grimace . . . and it's no big deal? Sure, a few people have pointed out that he was frustrated, that he's angry, but he's supposed to be angry, big deal.
Well, yes it is a big deal. He was ten times the jerk in that debate that Gore ever was. It's entirely reasonable to ponder whether he would be that much of a jerk in delicate presidential situations and whether it would turn otherwise productive sessions into war zones. Even people who intensely dislike Obama and what he stands for could probably at least tolerate being in the room with him, but even some of McCain's allies would probably find his childish behavior infuriating. That's a very serious liability for any management or leadership role, and the presidency of the US is the acme of such roles.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:54 pm#70
"Tracy already revealed that he works for someone else doing government military work."
I have done government military projects, but now I am in the most profitable architecture sector...healthcare.
"I’d bet he’s in the $80k pay range."
You are close...slightly low.
"I’d also bet that he thinks he’ll one day be a partner is a substantial firm with private clientele (why he’s Republican). The problem is, he’s on the wrong path by doing government work."
Again I said I did do government military work but after dealing with all the government wanna be development managers who know nothing about value engineering I decided it would be better to move on to better things.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:56 pmIf you guys don't want to talk about it then why are you here. The title of the thread indicates that joe is what this thread is about.....
Like it or not, joe is the story today. mccain made it so and we intend to use it against him if there is any way possible.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:58 pmTracy__5 Says:
uh, no one really gives a big rat's ass.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:01 pmpbg Says:
So ‘Joe The Plumber' is spending millions of dollars to acquire a company – and he’s a working class icon?
Something’s not right here.
_____________
My point EXACTLY...
October 16th, 2008 at 1:01 pmSo, T5... what was your last project...
A 2 seater, or a 4 seater?
October 16th, 2008 at 1:02 pmDiary in Kos says Joe is a registered republican. Big surprise! But even better apparently his name is slightly misspelled in the board of elections database so according to the republican party of Ohio's stringent standard is he even eligible to vote?
October 16th, 2008 at 1:03 pmJoe the Plumber is what is called "astroturf". Not real grass roots, just a shill, a prop to try to prop up McCain's fading populist cred.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:05 pmAre we really spending time smearing this guy? Come on this is a waste of time. This is a distraction. If he becomes part of the campaign then unleash, but don't give him a platform now.
Just my thoughts. Let me have it. : )
October 16th, 2008 at 1:06 pmTracy__5 Says:
"... I decided it would be better to move on to better things."
____________
Oooooooo... a six seater!
October 16th, 2008 at 1:13 pmI know I'm joining this little late. Did anyone mention he's related to Charles Keating?
October 16th, 2008 at 1:14 pmIs the business he works for even for sale? I'm sure his wanting to buy it was just more BS.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:15 pmIt's not a waste of time to discredit someone who is plain ignorante to the topics. As Joe said, we should check up on what the candidates say. Well Joe...You should take your own words to heart. And one other thing...I am left speechless everytime poor people vote against there economic interest???? We can clearly see that our education system has failed ( on purpose by Repubicans ). What better way of keeping your base...keep them stupid and to busy working 3 jobs to notice how bad they have it.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:17 pm#52
“Social Security’s a joke.”
He will be singing a different tune when he is 65…Joe, you are an idiot."
No, I am pretty sure he won't be depending on the government for his retirement income...thats of course if Obama's tax plan isn't put into effect.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:19 pmOMG. That guy's a Kool-aid swilling moron.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:23 pmThe point is (and I have heard both Obama and Biden say this) that it is the voter that loses when we grab on to this mindless crap, not the politician. Distract and divide is all he has left. Move on -just like the org ;).
October 16th, 2008 at 1:23 pm#67
"He claims to be an architect who refuses to hire union construction workers becuase he doesn’t care if the workmanship is shoddy as long as he doesn’t have to pay a decent wage."
Union doesn't mean good workmanship. Are you kidding? The one thing it does mean is higher construction costs. You aren't one of those people like MCMetal who claim to know something about the construction industry...are you?
October 16th, 2008 at 1:23 pm#55
"In reality, he will probably get a tax break from Obama."
As long as my income doesn't EVER exceed $250k per year.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:25 pmIs that story about Joe being related to Keating a spoof, a rumor or verified?
October 16th, 2008 at 1:26 pmTracy already revealed that he works for someone else doing government military work.
So did IRightI. Interesting. Perhaps coincidental.
Anyway.... this plumber fellow is NOT irrelevant. First of all, he is all over the news, he was mentioned over a dozen times by the presidential candidates in the last national debate... those things alone make him hugely relevant. Somehow he got face time with Obama and a camera rolling (how fortunate), and HIS opinion is being touted and printed and broadcast and discussed everywhere, not just here. The most relevant thing about this fellow, however, is the question of his integrity: is he who he claims to be and no more? Is he a shill (paid or not) -- and that is very relevant. If he was paid to do this, that makes a huge difference. And that he has a couple million, or is capable of getting a loan pretty soon for a couple of million to buy a business, I don't see him as being the "average guy" he is being touted as being. The "average person" in America these days cannot obtain a loan to buy an average priced home, much less a business that could turn a net profit of 250k+ within 4 years.
Yeah, he DESERVES to be talked about and investigated until we (being anyone interested) are satisfied. Don't step up to the presidental candidates on t.v., and discuss with a variety of reporters your politics unless you are man enough to take what will follow.
Those saying that we need to "get off his back" -- STFU. He asked for it.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:29 pmTracy_5, do you think it's patriotic to pay taxes?
October 16th, 2008 at 1:29 pmTracy__5 Says:
“… I decided it would be better to move on to better things.”
Had to get out of town when one of your buildings fell down, eh?
October 16th, 2008 at 1:33 pmjohnfyounger Says:
We are entitled to scrutiny based on how prominently Joe featured into last night’s debate. Joe is entitled to his opinion without being slandered.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
______
He's not being slandered. In fact, it'd be quite difficult for Joe the Plumber to be slandered or libeled. As someone who knowingly and willingly thrust himself into the public eye in order to engage public attention and influence the outcome of an election, he would most likely meet the legal definition of a vortex public figure.
As a public figure, the standard for proving libel or slander would be much higher for Joe the Plumber as it would be fr Joe Sixpack. He would have to prove that any defamatory statements made against him were made with actual malice.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:33 pmjohnfyounger Says:
One funny thought I had, with all the original scuttle butt over his full name and whether he is registered, wouldn’t it just be classic if he lost his right to vote in the Republican’s attempted purge of 200k+ voters from the Ohio registration rolls. I’d love to see his interview after discovering that one.
That's the point that Kos is making. He won't be purged because they are only doing it to newly registered voters. But if he had registered this year, he would be one the Republican party is challenging because his name was misspelled in the government's database. I would like to see the Democrats use "Joe the Plumber" the way the right is, but to point out how the Republicans are disenfranchising voters for things like misspelled names and missing middle initials.
Also, I thoroughly believe that this guy was a Republican plant. If not, how did he show up on Fox News within 20 minutes of the debate ending? And why would a McNasty adviser have been overheard saying "No John, don't do that, he's related to Charles Keating"? How would they know that if the guy wasn't a plant?
October 16th, 2008 at 1:34 pm#111 - Tracy__5 Says:
-------------------------------------------------------
#55
“In reality, he will probably get a tax break from Obama.”
As long as my income doesn’t EVER exceed $250k per year.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
And if it ever does, how will you ever be able to make ends meet on a $250k annual salary? ;-)
Seriously, is anyone claiming that a single person making $250k annually is somehow struggling to make ends meet? Assuming, of course, that they're not already in debt up to their eyebrows prior to making the leap from $249k to $250k.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:35 pmJoe the Turd Squeezer has been into the pipe dope again.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:35 pmHi Tracy_5:
October 16th, 2008 at 1:37 pmWhy would you ever want to make more than 250 K?
#63
"Yeah, those investments would be doing really well right now. Many people have seen all their investments become worthless and without SS, they would have nothing at this point."
If you dumb enough to have all of your investments tied up in stocks yeah. Money market accounts, like 401Ks are protected.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:39 pmTracy__5 Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“I’d bet he’s in the $80k pay range.”
You are close…slightly low.
Poor Tracy is a classic example of the fools who are taken advantage of by the cynical wealthy Republican elite. He lies awake nights worried about the tax burden on the oppressed upper class, and votes to help create an untaxed aristocracy in America. Meanwhile, the wealthy robber barons laugh heartily at his gullibility as they repeatedly rape him and his country. All poor dumb Tracy can do is ask to be screwed again and again.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:39 pmTracy__5 Says:
#55
“In reality, he will probably get a tax break from Obama.”
As long as my income doesn’t EVER exceed $250k per year.
You know idiot troll, if your taxable income is ever over $250,000 a year, you should be thanking your lucky stars and not b|tch about paying an extra 3% in taxes. If you are smart enough, you can find an accountant who can find loopholes for you so that you don't have to pay any income tax at all. After all, there are millions of Americans already doing that, not paying any taxes at all, but taking advantage of the things that taxes pay for.
Besides, all you righties complain because you want to keep your money, no matter that by your keeping more of your money the middle class is being bankrupted. So, when the middle class is no more, who is going to be there to buy your goods or services?
October 16th, 2008 at 1:39 pm#97
"So, T5… what was your last project…
A 2 seater, or a 4 seater?"
What are you talking about?
October 16th, 2008 at 1:42 pmThat seems a fair question, dbadass, and after studying Tracy's ideology as expressed in his various comments here, allow me a moment of punditry:
It seems that Tracy might be willing to make more than 250K in a single year, as long as the government agrees to not tax him more on it.
My guess is that Tracey has crunched the numbers and determined that the extra income he'd be left with is not worth the infuriating insult of being taxed at 39% rather than 36%.
You can see his point, right?
October 16th, 2008 at 1:43 pmI am and I do. Union members maintain a continuing education system specific to their trade. They are trained. You are just a republican that doesn't want to pay fair for a fair days work. You use illegal immigrants and deal with the lawsuits that follow.
We who work in construction have all seen the shoddy work done by non-union workers.
Evidence to anyone a highway that was done using non-union labor. It is an embarrassment when it is brand new.
don't try to bullshit an old bullshitter t5.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:45 pmJoe the Plumber, lol.
Can you smell the desperation?
October 16th, 2008 at 1:48 pm#114
"Tracy_5, do you think it’s patriotic to pay taxes?"
Sure.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:48 pmI can't tell you how many times a union contractor is called in to clean up after people like you. The unions should stop doing it. They should tell the contractor to get the slobes back that screwed the job up to start with.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:49 pmTracy_5, do you think that it is patriotic to pay enough in taxes to support our military in wartime?
October 16th, 2008 at 1:51 pm"Had to get out of town when one of your buildings fell down, eh?"
Never had that happen. The ones the did have some problems with moisture intrusion was probably one of the ones you worked on.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:51 pmDidn't they just dig up that Joe the Plummer is related to Charles Keating’s (Keating Five) son-in-law?
anyone else hear that?
October 16th, 2008 at 1:51 pmTracy, we're trying to have a mature, reasonable conversation here.
Please don't rely on your familiar "I know you are but what am I?" strategies.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:53 pm#118
"And if it ever does, how will you ever be able to make ends meet on a $250k annual salary? ;-)"
You work just to "make ends meet"? Are you serious?
October 16th, 2008 at 1:55 pmyou bid low and get the job, screw it up and leave, client has to call a union contractor to clean up your mess.
you got off cheap ok but the client is stuck with paying for the job twice. It's the republican way. I don't know how many times I've seen this happen.
You can blame it partly on the client for going for the low bid but don't try to claim that the union workers are the reason it cost so much.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:57 pmHi ralph. My point was what income is enough. Why does anyone need to make 200 k let alone 250. It is this nonsense which drives the greed and waste of resources to find crap to purchase so show some bullshit status which is the problem
October 16th, 2008 at 1:57 pmso = to
October 16th, 2008 at 1:58 pmHi, dbadass. I take your point, and I'm sure Tracy does as well, being the reasonable sort he has proven to be.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:58 pm#120
"Why would you ever want to make more than 250 K?"
One reason...to have enough money to put my kids thru college without them having to take out student loans and be in debt immdiately upon graduating. And other crazy questions you wish to ask?
October 16th, 2008 at 1:58 pmTracy__5 Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#114
“Tracy_5, do you think it’s patriotic to pay taxes?”
Sure.
He just doesn't think the wealthy should have to be patriotic. Tracy is a typical Republican in that he thinks the uber-rich are better than him. Due to his perception of their god-like status, Tracy does not think they should be required to contribute to society. The unwashed Republican proletariat are happy to support them in their luxury just for the honor of being allowed to inhabit the same planet with such superior beings.
October 16th, 2008 at 2:00 pmNow if Joe would lay some pipe with Bible Barbie, the GOP freak show could go on dancing around the room.
October 16th, 2008 at 2:01 pm#122
"He lies awake nights worried about the tax burden on the oppressed upper class, and votes to help create an untaxed aristocracy in America."
The upper class is untaxed?
"Meanwhile, the wealthy robber barons laugh heartily at his gullibility as they repeatedly rape him and his country."
Why are you so apparently obsessed with every one earning the same pay?
October 16th, 2008 at 2:01 pmI found being in debt after college to be a simple reality. Having it handed to me would have made it less valuable. So how much is enough Tracy-5?
October 16th, 2008 at 2:03 pmTracy__5 Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Had to get out of town when one of your buildings fell down, eh?”
The ones the did have some problems with moisture intrusion
Well, considering you hire nothing but cheap unskilled labor, you are lucky that your shoddy buildings just leak.
October 16th, 2008 at 2:04 pmTracy__5 Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“He lies awake nights worried about the tax burden on the oppressed upper class, and votes to help create an untaxed aristocracy in America.”
The upper class is untaxed?
Warren Buffett has exposed the fact that millionaires and billionaires pay a much lower tax rate than the average person. But this is not enough for Republican uber-wealthy. Their long term goal is to eliminate capital, dividend, and estate taxes. Then they and their descendants will live tax free in the U.S. forever. Your descendants will foot the bill, you fool.
October 16th, 2008 at 2:11 pm#123
"You know idiot troll, if your taxable income is ever over $250,000 a year, you should be thanking your lucky stars and not b|tch about paying an extra 3% in taxes."
Your attitude suggests that it should be far more.
"After all, there are millions of Americans already doing that, not paying any taxes at all, but taking advantage of the things that taxes pay for."
Yes there are a few "rich" people that don't pay income taxes and there are millions of poor people don't pay any either.
"Besides, all you righties complain because you want to keep your money, no matter that by your keeping more of your money the middle class is being bankrupted."
I think that McCain's tax cuts don't do far enough. I think that he should give the same middle class tax cuts that Obama proposes including the ones he proposes for those above $250k. I find it insulting that king Obama gets to decide who is "rich".
October 16th, 2008 at 2:12 pmIt looks like "Joe the Plumber" is starting to regret teaming up with the Republicans. He's already starting to say he feels "used". And then there is the inconvenient truth that all his customers now know that he isn't even licensed. Which brings up the question as to how an unlicensed plumber can make $250,000 a year?
October 16th, 2008 at 2:14 pmTracy__5 Says:
I find it insulting that king Obama gets to decide who is “rich”.
Yeah, where does Obama come off saying someone is rich just because they have lots of money!
October 16th, 2008 at 2:15 pmGood ol' Joe is a GOP plant! I'm not buying him nor his story. Although I won't be surprised if we hear that he's got his own reality TV show in the works!
October 16th, 2008 at 2:16 pmTracy__5 Says:
Yes there are a few “rich” people that don’t pay income taxes and there are millions of poor people don’t pay any either.
Sorry charley, it's way more than a "few" rich people who don't pay income taxes. And how can you equate those to the poor people who don't pay income taxes. Do you think the poor people are cheating by not paying income taxes on the pitiful amount of money they bring in? Do you think that someone who makes $10,000 a year (barely enough to live on) should pay the same amount of tax as someone who makes $250,000 a year?
An then there is the other inconvenient truth that 65% of the corporations in this country pay zero income tax. Most of them have their businesses set up off-shore purposely to avoid paying US income taxes. If all those corporations paid their fair share of taxes, we could pay off our national debt in no time.
October 16th, 2008 at 2:18 pmBilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which brings up the question as to how an unlicensed plumber can make $250,000 a year?
Tracy will hire him to install the plumbing in one of his buildings. He doesn't care if Joe knows what the hell he is doing as long as he works cheap. Besides, Tracy says his buildings already leak anyway.
October 16th, 2008 at 2:18 pmWATCH US EXPLODE Says:
Good ol’ Joe is a GOP plant! I’m not buying him nor his story. Although I won’t be surprised if we hear that he’s got his own reality TV show in the works!
He's going to need something soon to make money now that he has been exposed as a plumber who is not licensed and one that owes back taxes. Who will hire him now?
I think "Joe" didn't think through his 15 minutes of fame by agreeing to be a Republican stooge.
October 16th, 2008 at 2:20 pmTracy__5 Says:
“Why would you ever want to make more than 250 K?”
One reason…to have enough money to put my kids thru college without them having to take out student loans and be in debt immdiately upon graduating. And other crazy questions you wish to ask?
You can't afford to send your kids to college without a $250,000 net income? I put my kids through college on a net income that is much lower than $250,000 (actually less than half). You seriously need some money management advice if you can't send your kids to college unless you net $250,000 a year.
October 16th, 2008 at 2:23 pmOver on KOS, a diary by iceberglim is referenced by BarbinMD:
During last night's presidential debate, we heard a lot about "Joe the Plumber," also known as Joe Wurzelbacher, an average (ahem) Joe, who is really worried that a President Obama might raise his taxes. But does Joe really need to worry? Because if he's the same Joe that ABC News identified as Sam Joe Wurzelbacher, also of Toledo, Ohio, he doesn't always bother to pay his taxes.
LUCAS COUNTY COURT OF COMMON PLEAS
J. BERNIE QUILTER, CLERK
700 ADAMS STREET
TOLEDO, OHIO
MONETARY AMOUNT: $1,182.98
DEPT OF TAXATION STATE OF OHIO
Defendant 1:
WURZELBACHER SAMUEL J
...
So he doesn't bother to pay his taxes anyway, why should he give a shit one way or another. The Repukes can't even find honest shills....Kinda like the IcePrincess Sarah
October 16th, 2008 at 2:35 pmNews for Tracer ~ they have these nifty damn things like GET guaranteed Education Tuition accounts that you can sock away a couple of grand a year in, then in ten or twelve years, your kid has college tuition paid for.
See?
October 16th, 2008 at 2:36 pm#126
"I am and I do. Union members maintain a continuing education system specific to their trade. They are trained."
That doesn't automatically mean that you or your union members do good work.
"You are just a republican that doesn’t want to pay fair for a fair days work."
I don't pay the workers on the job site.
"You use illegal immigrants and deal with the lawsuits that follow."
If the subs are doing their job and watching over the construction with is usually low skill tasks like hanging drywall or painting there are no law suits. BTW those doing the complicated steel erection are union and they do good work, but having to pay a union crew to put up metal studs, drywall, and paint isn't worth the cost.
"I can’t tell you how many times a union contractor is called in to clean up after people like you."
October 16th, 2008 at 2:38 pmTrace? Don't you want to discuss things rationally anymore?
October 16th, 2008 at 2:39 pm#130
"Tracy_5, do you think that it is patriotic to pay enough in taxes to support our military in wartime?"
Sure, but you seem to be suggesting that the government shouldn't cut spending in other areas and shift it to the war effort. Do you think that the goverment spends too much?
October 16th, 2008 at 2:42 pm#133
"Tracy, we’re trying to have a mature, reasonable conversation here."
Cool. You let me know when shoeless wants to participate.
October 16th, 2008 at 2:43 pm#135
"you bid low and get the job, screw it up and leave, client has to call a union contractor to clean up your mess."
I am not a contractor. I don't participate in design build.
October 16th, 2008 at 2:45 pm#136
"Why does anyone need to make 200 k let alone 250."
Why does anyone need to make 70K per year?
October 16th, 2008 at 2:47 pm#140
"Tracy does not think they should be required to contribute to society."
You don't think that giving nearly 50% of your income to the government is enough?
October 16th, 2008 at 2:48 pm#143
"Having it handed to me would have made it less valuable."
Only to you.
"So how much is enough Tracy-5?"
It's not for you to make that determination. You seem to be advocating that everyone should be payed the same no matter what that they do for a living. Are you?
October 16th, 2008 at 2:56 pmPerhaps the government does "spend too much". It certainly spends more than it takes in.
Until George W. Bush, there was never a president who cut taxes during wartime. Taxes always go up during wartime because wars are expensive.
Yet you object to even a minimal (3%) increase in taxes on people who can well afford it -- we're not talking about people who will eat less because they can't afford groceries, or people who will be forced on the street because they can no longer pay their rent. But it seems that you feel even a modest increase in taxes is a worse course of action than borrowing more money from China to pay our military expenses.
Please explain this seeming lack of patriotism.
Is it really your contention that the federal government can close its budget deficit simply by cutting non-military discretionary spending?
October 16th, 2008 at 2:56 pmI have to say, Tracy, that this is a somewhat spurious accusation.
I read the comments of dbadass fairly closely and saw nothing that would suggest advocacy of the concept "that everyone should be payed (sic) the same no matter what that they do for a living."
This seems to me to be some sort of prejudicial distortion on your part, not evidenced in the progress of the thread.
October 16th, 2008 at 2:58 pm#144
"Well, considering you hire nothing but cheap unskilled labor, you are lucky that your shoddy buildings just leak."
I didn't hire anyone to work on my projects.
October 16th, 2008 at 2:58 pmTracy__5 Says:
nothing worth noting.
October 16th, 2008 at 3:04 pmYou start out making sweeping accusations about shoddy work done by union labor and then you spend 5 or 6 posts denying that you have anything to do with it. Which is it fool?
I'm starting to think that you just hang out at your daddy's jobsite and repeat what you hear......prolly get coffee and do lunch runs is my guess.
October 16th, 2008 at 3:10 pmI am not a contractor. I don’t participate in design build.
Of course not, a pussy repuke wouldn't want any of that sticky "liability" to deal with.
You're just another level of of "contractorship" which helps to drive up costs.
An elitist coward if you will, who doesn't take responsibility for anything beyond their own personal greed.
And your ivory tower attitude is exposing your frilly girlie panties you keep stealing from you poor old mother.
Thanks for the continued laughable look into the mind of a myopic pedant.
October 16th, 2008 at 3:24 pmTracy__5 Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#140
“Tracy does not think they should be required to contribute to society.”
You don’t think that giving nearly 50% of your income to the government is enough?
Boy, they sure have you suckered, don't they. Let me tell you a secret. The uber-wealthy do not pay the top tax rate. After all the loopholes, they pay a much lower percent than you do. Much of their income is sheltered off-shore tax free. Most rich people don't give a rat's ass about this country other than using it to protect their assets. They count on being able to fool gullible worshippers like yourself so that they will never have to pay their fair share.
October 16th, 2008 at 3:28 pmHey Tracy I have a big project for you to work on...will $10.00 cover it?
October 16th, 2008 at 3:36 pmTracy__5 Says:
I am not a contractor. I don’t participate in design build.
October 16th, 2008 at 3:39 pm``````````````````````````````````````````````````
I didn't think so, but you do participate in bull$hit build very nicely.
#145
"Their long term goal is to eliminate capital, dividend, and estate taxes."
I don't think that those should be eliminated either but I certainly don't think that the rate should be increased...they should be decreased. In market economy like ours raising these rates only deters investment. BTW no one is advocating eliminating the federal income tax.
"Then they and their descendants will live tax free in the U.S. forever. Your descendants will foot the bill, you fool."
Tax free?
October 16th, 2008 at 3:42 pm#134 - Tracy__5 Says:
------------------------------------------
“And if it ever does, how will you ever be able to make ends meet on a $250k annual salary? ;-)”
You work just to “make ends meet”? Are you serious?
October 16th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
Apparantly sarcasm is lost on you. That's what the little smiley-face at the end of this sentence denotes.
You seem to be claiming that higher taxes on someone who makes 20+ times the poverty wage is somehow a bad thing. Not sure why you think that.
I was raised by a family that believed that paying your taxes was supporting your country. I firmly believe that America is the better couintries out there, and I personally have no problems supporting my country. You seem to NOT want to support your country. Why is that?
October 16th, 2008 at 3:45 pmgod damn t5 you are just plain stupid. Do you honestly think that someones taxes are not going up after the last 8 years of deficit spending and tax cuts for the wealthy?
October 16th, 2008 at 3:49 pm#148
"Yeah, where does Obama come off saying someone is rich just because they have lots of money!"
Who is he to determine this?...or you for that matter. Please tell us why you and others here seem to be advocating capping people's income.
October 16th, 2008 at 3:58 pmFred, I've been saying that for months. I try to have a decent conversation with Tracist, but he inevitably starts saying really stupid things. It's sad.
October 16th, 2008 at 3:58 pmt5, we have to tax your ass because I want socialized medicine. I want to beef up the safety net for the impovershed and I want to put the money back in social security that your bunch stole from it.
I also want a real education system in America and investment in renewable energy.
These projects cost money. The American people agree. You are just along for the ride now so enjoy.
October 16th, 2008 at 3:58 pmUh, Trace... to lots of people, it makes sense that those who have plenty should bear a greater share of funding the protections that government provides them. This leads to the graduated tax scale we have today.
Therefore, someone will have to determine what income levels correspond to which tax rates. This will generally fall to the president or, more accurately, his staff.
And again, Trace don't make stupid arguments. "Capping people's income" is completely different than advocating that the trend of a tax burden that has been shifted from rich to middle-class over the past thirty years be reversed. It only makes you look foolish if you persist in using the concepts interchangeably.
October 16th, 2008 at 4:02 pmBoy, read a book. It's called democracy. You act like bush hasn't been making those very decisions for years.
You're out/we're in. You just get to ride and pay.
October 16th, 2008 at 4:06 pmTracy__5 Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Yeah, where does Obama come off saying someone is rich just because they have lots of money!”
Who is he to determine this?…
After Jan, 21 he'll be President.
October 16th, 2008 at 4:10 pmTracy is as well paid troll, obviously, and is delivering what his bosses want - a derailment of the topic at hand.
October 16th, 2008 at 4:16 pmTracy__5 Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#145
“Their long term goal is to eliminate capital, dividend, and estate taxes.”
“Then they and their descendants will live tax free in the U.S. forever. Your descendants will foot the bill, you fool.”
Tax free?
Yes, poor dumb Tracy, tax free. Let me spell it out for you. Once the uber-wealthy achieve their goal of eliminating capital gains, dividend, and estate taxes, they will pass on their vast fortunes to their children tax free. Those offspring will never have to work for income, so they will not pay income tax. They will not have to pay tax on dividends or capital gains of their inherited wealth. Thus, the fortunes will be passed down generation to generation with absolutely no taxation.
Your descendants, however, will get to pay to build infrastructure to support their investments, and armies to defend their capital. As a dumbass Republican, will be unwitingly complicit in this scheme to begin an untaxed aristocracy, and I hope your descendants understand what you have done, so they can curse your stupidity.
October 16th, 2008 at 4:22 pmThe entire original purpose of the income tax is to act as 'collateral' toward debt incurred by t he Treasury to the Federal Reserve.
People soon figured out that it could be a mechanism to help keep economic growth controlled. Instead of price controls, there would be income controls.
Tax Policies for Prospoerity by Beardsley Ruml
Federal Income Taxes serve four main purposes:
October 16th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
SKdeA Says:
I think all of the principal points about joe the plumber have been addressed.
This one makes blanket statements like he is knowledgable and expects us to not call him a lying little worm....which he is.
October 16th, 2008 at 4:22 pmI'll betcha Joe the plumber has never made close to $100k annually in his life! This is a typical fantasy often made by a McCain/Palin/Bush supporter. I was very impressed by how patient Obama was when spoke to this idiot. He demonstrated the patience of Jobe, which should impress many of the religulous nutballs in our society - if only they could think for themselves...
October 16th, 2008 at 4:27 pm#150
"Sorry charley, it’s way more than a “few” rich people who don’t pay income taxes."
Compared to the millions who don't it is a "few".
"And how can you equate those to the poor people who don’t pay income taxes."
I am not equating anything. I am just stating a fact.
"Do you think the poor people are cheating by not paying income taxes on the pitiful amount of money they bring in?"
Absolutely not. I think it's pretty fair that they don't pay any income tax, however I think we should have flat tax and do away will all the exemptions.
"Do you think that someone who makes $10,000 a year (barely enough to live on) should pay the same amount of tax as someone who makes $250,000 a year?"
I think everyone's RATE should be the same. To tax someone who earns more at higher rate is wrong and I don't want to hear the BS line "Well they can afford to pay more". Someone making $50k could afford to pay little more also, but what is the point of paying someone more if all you are going to do is tax them at a higher rate in order to make everyone equal? You could simplify the U.S. tax code tremendously and stop people from trying to find loopholes and sheltering their money if we would adopt a flat tax or maybe a consumption tax.
"Most of them have their businesses set up off-shore purposely to avoid paying US income taxes."
If we would lower the corporate tax rate to what it is in Europe then maybe these corporations wouldn't try to move their accounts off shore and uh you know move their manufacturing operations overseas. This is pretty basic economics.
http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=36986
"If all those corporations paid their fair share of taxes, we could pay off our national debt in no time."
You don't think 40% is enough?!!
October 16th, 2008 at 4:32 pm#151
"Besides, Tracy says his buildings already leak anyway"
It isn't because of the design.
October 16th, 2008 at 4:33 pmTracy_5:
October 16th, 2008 at 4:35 pmI am advocating no such thing. What I am advocating is that people elect to live a simple more frugal less resource intensive cooperative existence with their fellow man, and the rest of the planetary lifeforms solely because it is the right thing to do. The desire to want more and more serves no legitimate purpose.
#153
You can’t afford to send your kids to college without a $250,000 net income?"
Sure, but who are you to determine what my income should be?
October 16th, 2008 at 4:36 pmFred, Tracy is useful in that he provides a perfect example of the naive morons who are being used by the wealthy Republican elite to further their goal of turning our country into a third world oligarchy. He matters little, and I am not attempting to reason with such a pathetic sycophant. However, many people read these blogs who never post. I use Tracy as an example for those who might find it meaningful.
October 16th, 2008 at 4:36 pmTracy__5 Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#151
“Besides, Tracy says his buildings already leak anyway”
It isn’t because of the design.
I know. It's because you refuse to hire trained union workers, and instead you use low paid, unskilled labor which results in shoddy construction.
Aren't you proud!
October 16th, 2008 at 4:42 pmand who are you to consume beyond you needs?
October 16th, 2008 at 4:43 pmI absolutly agree with you shoeless.....we can't let him lie and get away with it.
The following ignorant statment by t5 is perfect to make your point:
Most companies in US avoid federal income taxes
cry me a river little t5. I'm starting to think that crow is a delacacy for you.
October 16th, 2008 at 4:43 pm#155
"News for Tracer ~ they have these nifty damn things like GET guaranteed Education Tuition accounts"
What is return on these accounts that I assume are government administered?
October 16th, 2008 at 4:45 pmTracy_5:
October 16th, 2008 at 4:50 pmWhy is it that those that wrap themselve tightest in the flag are the same that hate and fear their government the most?
Joe is exactly the type of person that Social Security was designed for ... He would be the last person to take the money that is paid into Social Security and invest it in himself.
Then the rest of society would end up having to take care of him in his old age when he made his way to the emergency room of the future because he didn't put anything away for a rainy day.
Too bad that he cannot see that every time he votes for a Republican with McCain's plan of tax cuts for the rich, that he is voting against his own best interest?
October 16th, 2008 at 4:50 pmWow Fred! That is amazing! Tracy says that corporations are moving overseas because US corporate taxes are too high. Yet, the great majority of corporations pay 0%!
Tell me Tracy, how low do you think US corporate taxes should be? Less than 0%?
October 16th, 2008 at 4:53 pmActually, many are paying less than zero....making a profit from taxpayers. If they are paying no taxes and receiving subsidies such as the big oil companies, etc.
It's really pretty appalling.
October 16th, 2008 at 5:18 pmjoe the plumber's tax bracket is relatively tiny in relation to the entire country.
by focussing only on this minority of people, the argument is weak.
joe the plumber is also dead wrong on social security and the war.
October 16th, 2008 at 5:26 pmYeah Fred, it is appalling that mega-national corporations doing busines in the U.S. pay no taxes, receive billions in taxpayer subsidies, and American troops protect their assets worldwide.
Yet, they still complain that the US corporate tax rate is too high. Methinks they doth protest to much. I'm sure they just complain in order to fool Republican dopes like Tracy into believing that they pay 40%.
October 16th, 2008 at 5:50 pm#164
"But it seems that you feel even a modest increase in taxes is a worse course of action than borrowing more money from China to pay our military expenses."
Obama isn't raising taxes just to pay for the increase military spending. I think the number was about $1 trillion in NEW spending.
"Is it really your contention that the federal government can close its budget deficit simply by cutting non-military discretionary spending?"
1/3 of the federal budget is devoted to this, so I think I couldn't hurt to take a look at ways to cut costs.
October 16th, 2008 at 5:54 pm#165
"I have to say, Tracy, that this is a somewhat spurious accusation."
Everyone here seems to be in favor of having higher tax rates on those who earn more. If you are in favor of a aerospace engineer earning more than a truck driver then why are you in favor of trying to make them more "equal" by taxing to higher earner at a higher rate?
October 16th, 2008 at 6:09 pmTracy__5 Says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#164
“Is it really your contention that the federal government can close its budget deficit simply by cutting non-military discretionary spending?”
1/3 of the federal budget is devoted to this, so I think I couldn’t hurt to take a look at ways to cut costs.
I guess math isn't your strong point. Let me help.
In 2007 total non-defense discretionary spending was $493 billion.
http://perotcharts.com/2008/05/non-defense-discretionary-spending-in-2007/
In 2008, the federal deficit is predicted to be $425 billion.
In order to balance the budget under your plan, non-defense discretionary spending would have to be cut to about $68 billion.
Good plan dumbass.
October 16th, 2008 at 6:12 pm#168
"You start out making sweeping accusations about shoddy work done by union labor and then you spend 5 or 6 posts denying that you have anything to do with it."
When I do my field observation reports relating to construction and it's progress I am simply making observations about who is doing what on the job site whether it be union or non union work. I have seen good union work and bad union work. Same for non union.
"I’m starting to think that you just hang out at your daddy’s jobsite and repeat what you hear..."
Sure and MCMetal couldn't or wouldn't answer a single construction administration question I posed to him a couple of month ago. What do you know about commercial construction?
October 16th, 2008 at 6:16 pm#169
"Of course not, a pussy repuke wouldn’t want any of that sticky “liability” to deal with."
Liability? Look you little runt the liablity for the integrity of the design rest with the architect and the engineers not the contractor, but considering you don't know anything about the profession you wouldn't know that. If the building falls down or fails in anyway it's the architect and the engineer who gets taken to court.
"An elitist coward if you will, who doesn’t take responsibility for anything beyond their own personal greed."
You don't know much about the construction business obviously.
"You’re just another level of of “contractorship” which helps to drive up costs."
Well once again you either are ignorant or have no concept about what it take to design a complicated building like a hospital. Maybe you are referring to a simple strip mall that any highschool graduate could design.
"Thanks for the continued laughable look into the mind of a myopic pedant."
You are a serious little ass-hole aren't you?
October 16th, 2008 at 6:30 pm#170
"The uber-wealthy do not pay the top tax rate."
I am not referring to the "uber-wealthy", i.e. those who make a millions each year.
"Most rich people don’t give a rat’s ass about this country other than using it to protect their assets."
They care more than you do considering you are nothing but a wart on the ass of humanity.
October 16th, 2008 at 6:34 pm#175
"You seem to be claiming that higher taxes on someone who makes 20+ times the poverty wage is somehow a bad thing."
It's a good thing then?
October 16th, 2008 at 6:38 pm#178
"t5, we have to tax your ass because I want socialized medicine."
So you want me to pay for your healthcare? Why stop there? Why not let me pay for all your other essential needs like food and shelter?
"I want to put the money back in social security that your bunch stole from it."
You think that the liberals in congress didn't steal from the laughable social security "lock box"? There was never any SS trust fund.
"I also want a real education system in America..."
We already spend more per student that just about every other country and they have better results and you want to spend more money?
"These projects cost money. The American people agree. You are just along for the ride now so enjoy."
The American people don't agree that the government should run all of these programs...at least those who haven't been brainwashed by Obama's wacked ideas.
October 16th, 2008 at 6:49 pm#180
"Uh, Trace… to lots of people, it makes sense that those who have plenty should bear a greater share of funding the protections that government provides them."
Who are you to determine who has "plenty"? Again what is the point of paying someone more if all you are going to do is try and make them more equal thru taxes to those who make less? This is pure income redistribution, i.e. socialism.
"This leads to the graduated tax scale we have today."
Yeah and it's in total logical opposition to the notion that you should be payed more based on your job skills.
October 16th, 2008 at 6:57 pm#196
"Why is it that those that wrap themselve tightest in the flag are the same that hate and fear their government the most?"
Because our constitution is basically list of things that the government is not allowed to do or impose on the people.
October 16th, 2008 at 7:00 pm#183
"Those offspring will never have to work for income, so they will not pay income tax."
You actually think that those who inherit money don't have to pay taxes on that money and every year after that? Just because they didn't work for it doesn't mean that the government won't get their slice.
October 16th, 2008 at 7:07 pm#189
"The desire to want more and more serves no legitimate purpose."
Who are you to determine legitimacy of anyone's wealth?
October 16th, 2008 at 7:11 pm#192
"I know. It’s because you refuse to hire trained union workers, and instead you use low paid, unskilled labor which results in shoddy construction."
How many time do I have to tell you that I am not a contractor? I think I am up to at least three.
October 16th, 2008 at 7:13 pm#193
"and who are you to consume beyond your needs?"
Who are you to determine what my "needs" are? BTW do you really "need" a computer?
October 16th, 2008 at 7:14 pm#194
"The following ignorant statment by t5 is perfect to make your point:
Tracy__5 Says:
“If all those corporations paid their fair share of taxes, we could pay off our national debt in no time.”
You don’t think 40% is enough?!!
Most companies in US avoid federal income taxes"
WHY DO YOU THINK THEY TRY TO AVOID FEDERAL INCOME TAXES????
Oh, look the U.S. corporate tax rate is near 40%. Get it?
Why is Europe's rate at about 20% on average?
October 16th, 2008 at 7:18 pm#198
"Tell me Tracy, how low do you think US corporate taxes should be?"
Well maybe just maybe if it were more in line with Europe's corporate tax rates they would probably stay in the U.S. Ya think?
October 16th, 2008 at 7:21 pm#204
"In order to balance the budget under your plan, non-defense discretionary spending would have to be cut to about $68 billion.
Good plan dumbass."
Did I say that cutting only discretionary spending would balance the budget? No I didn't. I said it would help. Sounds like we need to trim a little off of all those entitlements.
October 16th, 2008 at 7:26 pmAgain, Tracist's answer doesn't seem to match the question.
October 16th, 2008 at 7:27 pmCan anyone translate this for me please?
Did Tracist copy-and=paste a different question than he was answering?
October 16th, 2008 at 7:28 pm"Again, Tracist’s answer doesn’t seem to match the question."
How so?
BTW still waiting for that proof liar.
October 16th, 2008 at 7:31 pmTrace, do any community colleges near you offer any remedial reading comprehension courses?
It could help. I'm just sayin'.
October 16th, 2008 at 7:31 pm"Can anyone translate this for me please?"
Go ask your mother.
October 16th, 2008 at 7:32 pm"Trace, do any community colleges near you offer any remedial reading comprehension courses?"
Sure are you needing a referral?
October 16th, 2008 at 7:33 pmSee, Tracist, here's a good illustration of my point; someone makes a comment about corporate taxes.
Your retort is along the lines of the right-wing talking point that the US has among the highest corporate tax rates in the world.
Someone then points out to you that 66% of US companies pay no tax at all, which seems like it would fatally wound the argument you tried to make.
How did you respond? By basically excusing the avoidance of tax payments.
Not very sound logic, there, Trace.
October 16th, 2008 at 7:36 pmThat wouldn't work. My mother is a Republican, but she doesn't speak Gibberish.
Except occasionally after a few glasses of wine.
October 16th, 2008 at 7:36 pmNot really, but thanks for the concern. When people write in clear, cogent concepts in properly constructed sentences, I have no problem with reading comprehension.
I was asking for you, since you seem to have some trouble responding appropriately to comments, and in the past you've demonstrated a marked difficulty with both reading comprehension and expressing your thoughts clearly.
Actually, someone with a good sense of the written word would have been able to conclude from my inclusion of the phrase "near you" that I was not speaking of myself but rather for your own needs. Why would I ask about community colleges near you? I don't live near you, and I'm not planning to move to your area. This is what I mean by reading comprehension, Trace.
October 16th, 2008 at 7:42 pmThe proof is in the comment of yours that i copied, doosh.
October 16th, 2008 at 7:43 pm#226
"My mother is a Republican..."
Cool maybe you should start listening to her.
October 16th, 2008 at 7:46 pmI have listened to her, and decided that her views are formed largely from fear. I love her but I find her political views unconvincing and reflexive.
She's awfully good at self-delusion too.
October 16th, 2008 at 7:49 pmHow can you compare "liberating" Iraq to being saved my Jesus?
October 16th, 2008 at 7:53 pmOh, wait. He sounds like another Christian-right wing nut case like Palin and most of the GOP base. Justifying an unjust endless occupation by religion.
Sounds like fundamentalism.
#225
"See, Tracist, here’s a good illustration of my point; someone makes a comment about corporate taxes."
Yes and they fail to recognize that if the rate wasn't so high in the U.S. those corporations would stay here.
"Someone then points out to you that 66% of US companies pay no tax at all, which seems like it would fatally wound the argument you tried to make."
That would make sense to someone like you who wants to put the cart before the horse. That's not logical at all.
"How did you respond? By basically excusing the avoidance of tax payments."
They try and avoid the tax payments and move off shore because the rate is so high in the U.S. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
BTW you didn't explain what Europe's rate is around 20%.
October 16th, 2008 at 7:53 pm#228
"The proof is in the comment of yours that i copied, doosh."
No that proof that I am a racist...considering you insist to lie and infer that I am one.
October 16th, 2008 at 7:55 pm#230
"I love her but I find her political views unconvincing and reflexive."
You do know that liberalism is a gutless ideology...don't you?
October 16th, 2008 at 7:57 pm#227
"Why would I ask about community colleges near you?"
Maybe the ones near you don't have what you are looking for, i.e. those reading comprehension classes.
"I don’t live near you, and I’m not planning to move to your area."
Maybe you should reconsider.
October 16th, 2008 at 7:59 pmTo paraphrase you, Tracist, who are you to determine what liberalism is?
You don't practice it. You don't study it. You don't respect it. You can't even articulate what it is.
So, no, Tracist, I don't "know that liberalism is a gutless ideology". Since it is the ideology that guided our Founding Fathers in setting up this nation, I don't think they would agree with you, either.
You might want to read up on what you pretend to be able to judge:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/liberalism
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberalism/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
October 16th, 2008 at 8:09 pmTrace, even you have to see that your reply makes no sense.
Do you have any compelling reason to offer? Or are you just trying to get a date? "Cause I ain't interested.
October 16th, 2008 at 8:11 pmI started to respond to a few of t5's inane posts but you can't put toothpaste back in a tube.....he's out there ya see so I just picked this one to gouge the little pussy with...
huh, just kicked your conservative asses back to the stone age didn't we? HA HA.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:09 pmTracy__5 Says:
--------------------------------------------------
#175 - “You seem to be claiming that higher taxes on someone who makes 20+ times the poverty wage is somehow a bad thing.”
It’s a good thing then?
October 16th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
The person making 250k+ annually is gaining that salary due to the political, economic and regulatory enviornment which fosters the ability to increase their revenue. Paying a fair share towards the sustaining of that enviornment should be a patriotic thing to do.
For some reason, it's the neo-cons who want to destroy our government by reducing taxes to 0 and somehow, magically, mysteriously, we're supposed to remian a viable self governing country. Talk about la-la-land fantasies!
October 17th, 2008 at 6:21 am#237
"You don’t practice it."
I practice classic liberalism everyday far more than any wanna be here. By your definition....
"Liberalism is a broad array of related ideas and theories of government that consider individual liberty to be the most important political goal.[1]"
"Liberalism emphasizes individual rights and equality of opportunity. Different forms of liberalism may propose very different policies, but they are generally united by their support for a number of principles, including extensive freedom of thought and speech, limitations on the power of governments, the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, a market or mixed economy, and a transparent system of government.[2]"
Given this definition today's liberal in the U.S. emphasizes social liberalism which limits individual rights (ex. gun ownership, school choice, ect...) with more regulation and income redistribution thru tax policy. Individual liberty is made possible thru LIMITED GOVERNMENT intrusion into people's lives.
"You don’t study it."
I see social liberalism fail in practice every day.
"You don’t respect it."
I respect social liberalism in so far as I see fit to call out it's failings...which are vast and many.
"You can’t even articulate what it is."
No, I think you want to con us by pasting links to "liberalism" when you should be linking to "social liberalism".
"To paraphrase you, Tracist, who are you to determine what liberalism is?"
Who are you to know what liberalism is today in the U.S. considering you THINK it follows the lines of the founding fathers? Today's liberalism in the U.S. is not the classical liberalism that the fore fathers spoke of. It is more in line with social liberalism, i.e. more government control over the people thru taxes, regulation, and social services.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism
"Since it is the ideology that guided our Founding Fathers in setting up this nation, I don’t think they would agree with you, either."
The founding fathers would be more in line with Regan Democrats a type of liberal who is hard to find these days.
October 17th, 2008 at 11:55 am#237
"Do you have any compelling reason to offer?"
I just said that maybe the community colleges where you live may not have what you are looking for.
October 17th, 2008 at 11:57 am#238
"huh, just kicked your conservative asses back to the stone age didn’t we? HA HA."
Uh, no you guys didn't....especially you. You know that conservatives still run this country...right?...no matter who gets elected. If it ever got to a point where that actually looked like you guys were taking over, you would see a real revolution that would make you little demonstrations and protests look like a tea party.
October 17th, 2008 at 12:04 pm"The person making 250k+ annually is gaining that salary due to the political, economic and regulatory enviornment which fosters the ability to increase their revenue."
And the 70+ hours they work every week...don't forget.
"Paying a fair share towards the sustaining of that enviornment should be a patriotic thing to do."
Fair share? Why should a rich person pay more to drive on the same road? Once again if someone earns more income MOST OF TIME it's because the skills they possess are more valuable to society than someone earning less. It's called a market economy. People are paid what they market thinks their services are worth. As far as taxes are concerned the fair thing to do would have a flat tax and/or a consumption tax. The rich would still more and government would actually have to pay attention to how the revenue is spent instead of wasting billions each year.
"For some reason, it’s the neo-cons who want to destroy our government by reducing taxes to 0"
No we just want a government which is responsible with our tax dollars and to quit hearing reports that the DOE, the Pentagon, and other agencies who can't account for billions of dollars every fiscal year.
October 17th, 2008 at 12:20 pmThe way the liberal media went after Joe Wurzelbacher is a good indication of what average Americans have to look forward to in a Barrack Obama administration (God forbid). Access will be based on positive contributions to the Obama persona and Hollywood status!
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