TO THOMAS PAINE.
[Date uncertain.]

DEAR SIR,
I have read your manuscript with some attention. By the argument it contains against a particular Providence, though you allow a general Providence, you strike at the foundations of all religion. For without the belief of a Providence, that takes cognizance of, guards, and guides, and may favor particular persons, there is no motive to worship a Deity, to fear his displeasure, or to pray for his protection. I will not enter into any discussion of your principles, though you seem to desire it. At present I shall only give you my opinion, that, though your reasonings are subtile and may prevail with some readers, you will not succeed so as to change the general sentiments of mankind on that subject, and the consequence of printing this piece will be, a great deal of odium drawn upon yourself, mischief to you, and no benefit to others. He that spits against the wind, spits in his own face.

But, were you to succeed, do you imagine any good would be done by it? You yourself may find it easy to live a virtuous life, without the assistance afforded by religion; you having a clear perception of the advantages of virtue, and the disadvantages of vice, and possessing a strength of resolution sufficient to enable you to resist common temptations. But think how great a portion of mankind consists of weak and ignorant men and women, and of inexperienced, inconsiderate youth of both sexes, who have need of the motives of religion to restrain them from vice, to support their virtue, and retain them in the practice of it till it becomes habitual, which is the great point for its security. And perhaps you are indebted to her originally, that is, to your religious education, for the habits of virtue upon which you now justly value yourself. You might easily display your excellent talents of reasoning upon a less hazardous subject, and thereby obtain a rank with our most distinguished authors. For among us it is not necessary, as among the Hottentots, that a youth, to be raised into the company of men, should prove his manhood by beating his mother.

I would advise you, therefore, not to attempt unchaining the tiger, but to burn this piece before it is seen by any other person; whereby you will save yourself a great deal of mortification by the enemies it may raise against you, and perhaps a good deal of regret and repentance. If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it. I intend this letter itself as a proof of my friendship, and therefore add no professions to it; but subscribe simply yours,
B. Franklin

Early Americans address their president and their understanding of religion in the new nation…

Letter from the Danbury Baptists:

The address of the Danbury Baptist Association in the State of Connecticut, assembled October 7, 1801.
To Thomas Jefferson, Esq., President of the United States of America

Letter of Oct. 7, 1801 from Danbury (CT) Baptist Assoc. to Thomas Jefferson,
Thomas Jefferson Papers, Manuscript Division,
Library of Congress, Wash. D.C.

Many scholars count up to 250 individuals as founding fathers. These include signers of the declaration and the constitution, supreme court justices, state governors, and others.

If one were to reference the quotes of those who have remarked that there would not be a U.S. without the influence of Christianity, the remarks on the pro side would be overwhelming.

For instance, ( bit is working from memory here ) Newsweek magazine Dec 1984 p66 in an article entitled, or an article about, the “Origins of American Constitutionalism” says that in 15,000 documents written by the founders, the Bible is the most commonly references document.

TP readers might appreciate this work:

Donald S. Lutz, Colonial Origins of the American Constitution: A Documentary History [1998]

http://oll.libertyfund.org/index.php?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php%3Ftitle=694&Itemid=27

This is collection of government documents from early American, for the 1600’s, which display the thought and understanding of our predecessors. Throughout these documents uprightness – Christian religion – and commonality of experience are emphasized over and over.

TPers might note the laws against buggery and Catholic priests ( search the .pdf with bishop).

Bit is wrong, Bit is a moron. The word CREATOR is the way Deists refer to God. Benjamin Rush? John Dickenson?

Lets hear from some of the founding fathers we have actually HEARD OF.

How about John Adams?

“We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions … shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power … we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society.” (John Adams)

“The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses….” (John Adams, 1787)

“…Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.” (ibid)

Thomas Paine

“As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of government to protect all conscientious protesters thereof, and I know of no other business government has to do therewith.” (Thomas Paine, the Rights of Man)

“All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish [Muslim], appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine. But it is necessary to the happiness of man that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe. It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime. He takes up the profession of a priest for the sake of gain, and in order to qualify himself for that trade he begins with a perjury. Can we conceive anything more destructive to morality than this?” (Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason)

Every man “ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience.” – George Washington (Letter to the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789)

“Question with boldness even the existence of a god.” – Thomas Jefferson (letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787)

“Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error
all over the earth.” – Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)

“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.” – James Madison (Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 1785.)

“As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.” – (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 – signed by President John Adams.)

Not only is bit a moron bit NEVER knows what he is talking about

If bitblt was intelligent, bitblt would notice that the word “CREATOR” was deliberately used our Founders to infer beliefs of ALL origins, NOT JUST CHRISTIAN! Thus, EQUALITY to ALL belief systems. So your christofascist values, according to our Founders, have no ruling upon me or how I choose to live my life, especially when your christofascist belief system infringes upon MY INALIENABLE RIGHT to LIFE, LIBERTY and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS… K?

bit is sorry that Max-1’s understanding of U.S. religious heritage is so devoid of meaning.

Do you have any support for your assertion?
Do you have any references to any writing from any founder that remotely suggests that “…equality to ALL belief systems,” is what was meant in the Declaration of Independence?

In fact what is the earliest reference you can find in the U.S. that “…equality to ALL belief systems” is what was intended by the founders or by the document from which you quote?.

You’re using twentieth-first century understanding to read an eighteenth century work, and bit suspects that it’s an understanding that believes the Constitution was written to allow licentiousness.

bit thinks the word Creator is used because this is how Christ referred to God in Matthew 19. Creator is a good word because it addresses the relationship people have to God. Simply put the title Creator recognizes that God is the Creator of all we know. bit believes this is how Christ used the word and how the founders used the word.

The following from the will of John Dickinson illustrates what bit said:

John Dickinson
Signer of the Constitution
Rendering thanks to my Creator for my existence and station among His works, for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel and enjoying freedom, and for all His other kindnesses, to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity.
Will of John Dickinson

This quote is from

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=78

This web page has numerous quotes from founders about their Christianity.

Christianity has made the U.S. way of life work up to this point. If you have something better, something that will make the U.S. work better or hold it together or insure its future, just say what it is.

From the link above:

Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
My only hope of salvation is in the infinite, transcendent love of God manifested to the world by the death of His Son upon the cross. Nothing but His blood will wash away my sins. I rely exclusively upon it. Come, Lord Jesus! Come quickly!

Except those that are two thirds a man?

There are those that are blessed by God monetarily because they are royalty and thou shalt not question their words?

Oh boy………………

Digging a hole and digging it deep.

Its going to be expensive for the conservative wealthy donors to keep these neo cons on air for 8 years with poor ratings and poor advertising on their shows stations.

Maybe not. In case you didn’t, you do now. Did you know that Zionists believe that the goyim (all non-Jews) should serve them? The inequality that he is advocating has nothing to do with making more of yourself than another person, but to do with the assumed superiority of the Jews. They want you to accept their notion that you have masters. Them.

But don’t believe me. Google “Zionist philosophy.” It helps if you read their stuff with a stiff drink.

bitblt,
Since the modern Bible was translated by a Europeans, does that mean you follow European values, too?

.

If bitblt was intelligent, bitblt would notice that the word “CREATOR” was deliberately used our Founders to infer beliefs of ALL origins, NOT JUST CHRISTIAN! Thus, EQUALITY to ALL belief systems. So your christofascist values, according to our Founders, have no ruling upon me or how I choose to live my life, especially when your christofascist belief system infringes upon MY INALIENABLE RIGHT to LIFE, LIBERTY and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS… K?

Now, if you wish to disagree with the Founders of America, then you are free to go found your own country. Try the AIP, I hear they need new members… However, to attempt to impress your christofascist values upon Americans is… well… antithetical to what America was founded upon.

Simply put,
NO AMERICAN SHOULD HAVE TO BE MEASURED BY ANY RELIGIOUS COMMANDMENTS…
… IF YOU WANT TO LIVE IN A THEOCRACY, GO LIVE IN IRAN!!!

WHY DOES bitblt HATE AMERICAN VALUES?

Now, however if you wish to measure yourself to your christofascist values, where did Christ say we have to follow His Father’s Ten Commandments? I thought Christ was asked which commandment was the most important… NO? What then, did Christ say?

Sorry bitblt, you drank the tang. You judge and conditionally love. You get to deal with God on that one… Have fun arguing your defense!!!

.

mine at 128 (and 127, too) was a reply to that…

and i dint use the forbidden monosyllable…i have learned that lesson many a hard time…sometimes i have forgotten and rued my forgetfulness…mebbe i can smuggle it in this way?

Just out of curiosity? Too condescending?

Yo bitblt,
dbadass wonders why he always misses the amusing yet odd posts of bitblt. dbadass finds them sort of weird yet intriquing? dbadass wonders just what the hell bitblt is on…
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Bitbit is an idiot. He crawls in here spewing his false piety and psuedoreligious reasons why its SO moral to be a selfish goon then when you slap him upside the head with facts or logic he shifts to this passive-aggressive attack about what is wrong with YOU never coming within MILES of addressing the argument. I figure mostly because he is too stupid to even try

tokin librul Says:
I’m just not distracted or deluded by the smoke-blowing happy talk of hope, change, and all the rest of the transparent crapola that gets spread around as political discourse by star-struck sycophants of quite ordinary pols…

And your political discourse is that there is no point? How does that make you a superior debater? Are you really clairvoiant? Do you know what will happen tommorrow?

Will you admit you might have been wrong when we don’t remain the warring nation that we are under the bush administration.

or if civil rights in America start to be strengthened again…..will you admit it?

I could go on but what is the point. I will admit it when the time comes if I am wrong but I see no point in writing it before it happens.

I also strongly believe that these changes are coming. I have hope.

transparent crapola…..that’s your superior debating skill?