Pence: Conservatives Should Focus On Social Issues Like ‘The Sanctity Of Marriage’ While Rebuilding GOP
Pence: Conservatives Should Focus On Social Issues Like ‘The Sanctity Of Marriage’ While Rebuilding GOP
On Fox News Sunday yesterday, Rep. Mike Pence (R-IN) — who will soon be stepping into the No. 3 GOP leadership position in the House — said that social issues like “the sanctity of life, the sanctity of marriage” will be central for rebuilding the Republican party after the stinging losses of the past two elections. Pointing to the success on Tuesday of ballot initiatives that ban gay marriage, Pence claimed that “the vitality of the conservative movement around the country is very real.”
WALLACE: I had Karl Rove on on election night, and he said, It’s not enough to just go back and say, ‘Well, we’re the party of Ronald Reagan.’ He says you’ve got to come up with new conservative solutions to the problems that people face today.
PENCE: Right. But you build those conservative solutions, Chris, on the same time-honored principles of limited government, a belief in free markets, a belief in the sanctity of life and the sanctity of marriage.
You look at those social issues, Chris — you know, there were three state referendums on marriage. All three of them carried — I think in Florida, California and Arizona. You know, the vitality of the conservative movement around the country is very real.
Watch it:
Pence’s call for a continued emphasis on social issues conflicts with Sen. John Ensign (R-NV), who declared on the day after the election that “issues such as abortion or gay rights should not be at the core of the party.”
Pence appears to believe that the lesson of the ‘08 elections is that Republicans need to become more conservative in order to find more public support. But polling shows that voters actually blame the Republicans’ loss on them being too conservative.
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Does this mean they’re going to stop cheating on their wives and preserve the sanctity of their own marriages first?
November 10th, 2008 at 11:23 amPence is an excellent example of the dinosaurs in the republican party who will soon be extinct.
November 10th, 2008 at 11:24 amBack to the future!
The modern Republican party—at least as portrayed by its chosen leaders and public spokespersons—is the gift that keeps on giving.
Only in the face of overwhelming rejection could a party like this apparently flog itself by touting principles which have been soundly rejected by an increasingly progressive electorate. The ‘permanent majority’ has become the ‘loyal opposition’ and is slowly sliding into obscurity…
November 10th, 2008 at 11:28 am“Less government” means interfering in peoples love lives and sex lives?
November 10th, 2008 at 11:28 amrepublicans will never be in touch with reality.
who gives a shlt who is fu*king who….
i have some gay friends and what they do has ZERO impact on my life….
im glad they want to make this an issue, because its another LOSER for them.
see ya never again republicans!
November 10th, 2008 at 11:28 amSo, the idea then to advance the party is to “attack” gay people and women who find themselves in the unenviable position of needing to terminate a pregnancy? Nice. Just what I have grown to expect out of them.
November 10th, 2008 at 11:30 amRep. Mike Pence (R-IN) … said that social issues like “the sanctity of life, the sanctity of marriage” will be central for re-building the Republican party
So the Republicans are going to be demonizing adultery and divorce now, huh? Good luck with that.
—what? … they’re not saying a word about adultery? Or divorce?
Aren’t those issues the greatest threats to “the sanctity of marriage” out there?
Oh, that’s right… I forgot about gay marriage. I forgot that people who WANT to get married threaten “the sanctity of marriage” more than adultery or divorce do.
Silly me.
November 10th, 2008 at 11:30 amThis is yet more proof that the Republican party has NOTHING TO OFFER the American public except a desire to pry into the private lives of Americans.
November 10th, 2008 at 11:33 amThose “conservative solutions” of the “time-honored principles” of “limited government” and “free markets” is what got us into the economic bottomless pit that we’re in now. The American electorate soundly rejected those “conservative solutions” on Tuesday.
Obviously Pence and his ilk weren’t paying attention to the election results this year if they want to keep pushing the same old Friedmaniac economic theories — which is why they’ll continue to be wandering in the wilderness for decades to come…
November 10th, 2008 at 11:33 amIf these guys were truly interested in preserving the sanctity of marriage, they’d promote a constitutional amendment outlawing divorce. But then, they’d probably have trouble finding a qualified Republican candidate for elected office if they did that…
November 10th, 2008 at 11:35 amshouldn’t Rapture Ready or bitblt or both be here by now?
November 10th, 2008 at 11:36 amI looked in the dictionary for a definition of the word “dense” and there beside it was a picture of Pence.
November 10th, 2008 at 11:37 amI’m sure that when the Supreme Court ruled against Dred Scott in 1857, that the pro-slavery forces felt that the issue had been validated and slavery was here to stay. Never mind that the issue helped galvanize the abolitionists, helped ensure the election of Abraham Lincoln, and hastened the onset of the Civil War.
Now we see the same thing happening with the issue of gay marriage. The GOP will continue to use the issue as a wedge for all it’s worth, but attitudes are gradually shifting to the other side. Massachusetts has legalized gay marriage, and three other states have legalized gay civil unions. New York has promised to recognize any gay marriage or civil union performed in any states where it’s legal. Canada has legalized gay marriage throughout their country. And civilization hasn’t come to an end.
Each generation of Americans is more tolerant and understanding of gays than the generation before them. Legalizing gay marriage and ensuring they are entitled to all the civil rights any American gets isn’t a matter of “if” — it’s a matter of “when”.
Ballot issues like Proposition 8 serve very well to galvanize the pro-civil rights forces. Like the Dred Scott case, this will bring about equal rights faster than not.
November 10th, 2008 at 11:38 amPence: Conservatives Should Focus On Social Issues Like ‘The Sanctity Of Marriage’ While Rebuilding GOP»
– - So, Indiana voted Democratic this election, eh Mike? So yeah, you keep the focus on culture war issues.
November 10th, 2008 at 11:40 amYes Congressman Pence, I think you should focus more on non-issues like gay marriage and the right of a woman to choose. Please focus 110 percent of your energies on hot button issues like this and make sure that in 2012 you have Caribou Barbie at the top of your ticket. I’m salivating with glee already.
November 10th, 2008 at 11:40 am“Pence: Conservatives Should Focus On Social Issues Like ‘The Sanctity Of Marriage’ While Rebuilding GOP”
A better suggestion would be to focus on “morality”, “honesty”, “honor”, “fiscal responsibility”, “competence” and other things like that.
November 10th, 2008 at 11:44 amI know, it’s a stretch for the republiscum and their heads may asplode, but they can learn from the next administration.
Hmmmm, seems to me that after trashing the economy, job market, foreign relations, environment and numerous other critical quality of life issues, that the repubs have no choice but to dig into “sanctity” issues. After all, if they say, “We’re going to fix the economy, enviroment, jobs, etc. than it would be admission that gwb broke them.
November 10th, 2008 at 11:45 am.
Social issues like:
~ Pro-life… Protect the fetus to send it to the killing fields of war!
~ The sanctity of marriage… Prevent the gays who love from marrying so that the heteros who are married can still get a divorce!
~ Health care, feeding the homeless… Because wall street needs to be propped up with what taxes the poor can pay!
~ Fiscally responsible… Spend another TEN TRILLION DOLLARS on the Military Industrial Complex who’s life blood depends on war!
.
November 10th, 2008 at 11:45 amPENCE: Right. But you build those conservative solutions, Chris, on the same time-honored principles of limited government, a belief in free markets, a belief in the sanctity of life and the sanctity of marriage.
Limited government: like NSA wiretaps on American citizens, interfering in decisions between a woman and her doctor, seizure of Americans’ laptops at border crossings, FBI now going to be allowed to investigate ANYONE with no warrant and no just cause? Just a few examples.
Belief in the free markets: you mean the completely unregulated markets that resulted in the worst world-wide economic crisis since the Great Depression?
Belief in the sanctity of life: pro-death penalty, starving the S-Chip program for children, preventative war and the killing of civilians, torturing and killing prisoners? The only “life” they believe is sanctified is the embryo. After that, all bets are off.
Sanctity of marriage: Upstanding examples of this would be McCain, Vitter, Gingrich, all adulterous.
November 10th, 2008 at 11:45 ammaybe someone has a link to a demographic breakdown of voters in california, who voted for prop 8…
what was the proportion of blacks who voted in relation to other groups?
how much of an effect did the black vote of 70% FOR really have?
anyone?
November 10th, 2008 at 11:48 amLet’s face it, this is not a “conservative” country.
No matter how one spins it, the California Prop 8 outcome shows just how progressive that we are.
Less than 500,000 votes determined the difference between full equality and second-class status for same-sex couples. Also note that the vote in urban areas of the state voted against the ban. (See: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/CA2008Prop8.png)
The GOP can go ahead and stake its future on bigotry and hate, but in the end they will lose. When the No on Prop 8 crowd succeeds in getting same-sex marriage back on the ballot the outcome will most likely be different.
November 10th, 2008 at 11:50 amSarah Palin/Michelle Bachmann 2012!
November 10th, 2008 at 11:53 amGood grief, these people are stupid.
Litmus test for Republican Party membership has to be stupidity…
November 10th, 2008 at 11:54 amThe parents of the baby boomer generation are currently dying off.
November 10th, 2008 at 11:54 amWith them dies the majority of the 28 percent that still watch fox news and support the likes of john mcgoober.
Here’s the problem……time honored principals of limited government….since when?
sanctity of marriage…….can we say divorce and kids that have 2 or 3 dads, etc. please.
my kids came home from school once when they were small and one of them was upset……seems the kids at school had been making fun of them because they only had one mom and dad.
sick I tell ya.
November 10th, 2008 at 11:59 amThe first things they should do, particularly within the sanctity-loving Repub party, would be to totally ban divorce except in cases of abuse– no more letting people flit from spouse to spouse for, oh, 5-6 marriages; and of course outlaw all Mormons from having multiple spouses. And any Repub caught commiting adultery would be immediately removed from the party. Right, Mr. Pence?
November 10th, 2008 at 12:04 pm…and the wedge-issue 8-ball says: “Sanctity Of Marriage.”
‘Course, the entire republican party is basically composed of wedge-issue 8-balls…
*rimshot*
Thankyewthankyewverrymuch….
November 10th, 2008 at 12:04 pmAm I wrong for having a problem with men who have been caught cheating on their wives and having multiple marriages telling me that my faithful, monogamous same sex union of almost 7 years is blow to the sanctity of marriage and family? Clearly I must be missing something.
November 10th, 2008 at 12:05 pmThey really don’t get it, do they. If they can’t transform themselves into a party who cares about people problems like how are they going to feed their children and keep a roof over their heads, the Republicans will be doomed for a very long time. I truly believe that many people who voted with the Republicans in the past for God, Gays and Guns, did not do so this time. They woke up and realized it’s time to vote for the party that will do the most to improve their ability to support their families and maybe move up in the world.
The GOP really is leaderless and rudderless. It amuses me to no end.
November 10th, 2008 at 12:06 pmOh and how could I forget the ones who were caugt with prostitutes, other men, and minors?
November 10th, 2008 at 12:07 pmLet’s go really Bible old-school on this marriage thang.
Solomon. Great man o’ God. Built the temple. Had 700 wives and 300 concubines. Nothin’ in the Bible against it. Jesus didn’t even spank him for it.
So let’s have ballot measures for 700 wives and 300 concubines. It’s traditional.
November 10th, 2008 at 12:07 pmWALLACE: I had Karl Rove on on election night, and he said, It’s not enough to just go back and say, ‘Well, we’re the party of Ronald Reagan.’ He says you’ve got to come up with new conservative solutions to the problems that people face today.
What Wallace doesn’t seem to understand is that there are no new conservative solutions to the problems that people face today.
“We can’t solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.”- Albert Einstein
November 10th, 2008 at 12:13 pmThey want to take away the Equal Protection Clause, take away Privacy, and install discrimination into the Constitution?
It isn’t life or marriage that they are trying to prtect. It’s their intolerance and prejudice. Those particular issues really come down to forcing their religion onto everyone. They obviously have no respect for the First Amendment.
November 10th, 2008 at 12:14 pmBob Says:
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They want to take away the Equal Protection Clause…
Republicans think the Equal Protection Clause was written exclusively to protect George W. Bush from the voters of Florida.
November 10th, 2008 at 12:17 pmSince well over 50% of the people in this country are fine with gay marriage or civil unions, this will be another losing proposition for the loser party.
November 10th, 2008 at 12:19 pmdbadass raises a good point; where in the hell are Daryll and bitblt?
Or, more accurately, RaptureReady and THEN bitblt.
I hope they’re okay.
November 10th, 2008 at 12:27 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
dbadass raises a good point; where in the hell are Daryll and bitblt?
Or, more accurately, RaptureReady and THEN bitblt.
I hope they’re okay.
Maybe their heads did explode on November 5.
November 10th, 2008 at 12:30 pmRep. Mike Pence (R-IN) … said that social issues like “the sanctity of life, the sanctity of marriage” will be central for re-building the Republican party
You know that “sanctity of life” thing? Are they going to be lobbying for a ban on Capital Punishment? If not, they are total hypocrites (we all knew that anyway).
November 10th, 2008 at 12:30 pmHow about allowing three gays to be united in one marriage? This might appeal to the Mormons, who started up the notion of having multiple spouses back in the 19th century. And gays could hardly be against gay marriage Plus, either. It might be a win-win-win for all…
November 10th, 2008 at 12:32 pmDr. Hussein Matt Says:
Using Prop 8 as the litmus test to define this country as “conservative” is obtuse. If we put suffrage on a ballet, white men would still be the voting electorate.
Prop 8 was the conservative’s only winner in this last election. Several states had anti-abortion ballot measures that lost big. I also think one state approved a death with dignity act and one approved the use of Medical Marijuana.
All in all, prop 8 was their only winning issue. And now the want to define the party by that one issue. Go for it guys.
November 10th, 2008 at 12:34 pmUnphucking believable. Just after getting their asses waxed, and I mean WAXED in the last 2 elections, they are hellbent on ’staying the course’, right off the cliff.
I love the smell of extinction in the morning.
November 10th, 2008 at 12:34 pmOval12345678 aka James K. Sayre Says:
How about allowing three gays to be united in one marriage? This might appeal to the Mormons,
It is looking more and more like it was the Mormons that pushed Prop. 8 and financed it. They are trying really hard to put Mitt Romney forth as the savior of the Republican party and thereby their candidate in 2012.
November 10th, 2008 at 12:36 pmRight. But you build those conservative solutions, Chris, on the same time-honored principles of limited government
You had eight years, get over yourself. Big, inneffective government: GOP legacy. I don’t care whether government is big or small, just that it’s effective and representative to everyone.
, a belief in free markets
You can box yourself away from reality, you just gave $700,000,000,000 away to the coffers of screwed-up corporations. There’s nothing free about those markets.
, a belief in the sanctity of life and the sanctity of marriage.
Sanctity of life, coming from those who couldn’t care less about maintaining the health of that child, pre- and post- natal health care for the mother. Aerial bombing with no-strings-attached doesn’t help either, not that it’s stopping idiots like you.
I wouldn’t recommend going back to wedge issues if I were the GOP recovery consultant, neither would I openly court Newt Gingrich (serial adulterer, child-support and alimony evader) to plot the resurgence of the party. 1994 is over, and the contract-on-America FAILED.
November 10th, 2008 at 12:47 pmHere’s a little bit of deliciousness, courtesy of Americablog:
A friend tells me that there’s a BIG musical theater in Sacramento, California called the California Music theater. It’s been around for decades and, you might be shocked by this, but apparently there are gays who work in musical theater. Well, anyway, word get around in the past few days that the Artistic Director of the theater, one Scott Eckern, a nice Mormon boy, donated $1,000 to the hateful bigoted Yes on 8 campaign that repealed marriage for gay couples in California…
(check the link to see how this one turns out.)
November 10th, 2008 at 12:48 pmYyyyyeeeeah. That’s what they should do. Focus on more completely irrelevant things. That’ll work.
November 10th, 2008 at 12:56 pmPence will be a great leader to the bottom for the morons on the right. They can continue to operate in the ditch instead of the road that the rest of us on if they like. It would be the best thing for the rest of us. Goodbye GOP.
November 10th, 2008 at 1:09 pmI think Republicans live in a parallel universe from the rest of us. I read these statements and can’t believe they see what happened during this election.
I check into conservative websites now and then just to see what these folks are thinking and I have a hard time grasping how they come to their conclusions.
November 10th, 2008 at 1:09 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
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…RaptureReady and THEN bitblt.
I hope they’re okay.
When were either of them ever Okay?
November 10th, 2008 at 1:14 pmPENCE: Right. But you build those conservative solutions, Chris, on the same time-honored principles of limited government, a belief in free markets, a belief in the sanctity of life and the sanctity of marriage.
The belief in the free-market system that led to a trillion $ bailout that almost every American dislikes ?
The sanctity of life/abortion ballot initiatives , that DID NOT PASS IN ANY STATE ?
The belief in small government which the past 4 or 5 GOP presidencies have not come close to adhering to ?
Did anyone inform Pence that the GOP way of making up complete and utter bullshit is not working any longer on the American voting public ?
November 10th, 2008 at 1:14 pmSpence and the rest of the conservatives are welcome to ignore reality and history–indeed that is the whole point of conservatism, to resist change.
By sticking to that principle conservatives will continue to isolate themselves from the real world and thus continue to diminish over time.
If I recall correctly the genesis of the Democratic-Republican divide was the Civil War which was pretty much a fight over state versus federal power.
At the time it was Lincoln’s new Republican party that pushed for “big government” (central government) and universal rights and it was the Democrats who insisted on the primacy or at least the
maintenance of states’ rights for fear of too much consolidation of political power.
It would appear that the polar reversal of the two parties began in the Great Depression, was consolidated in the 40s and was ‘completed’ in the 60’s.
The electoral successes of the conservatives of the recent past has been due to their inherent acceptance of authority and ‘groupthink’. The Democrats have been less successful in national elections because of the freedom of thought and opinion liberalism allows and encourages, so its been like herding cats for them.
Conservatives follow orders and support whoever their party leaders choose on their behalf. Liberals make their own choices and if their options aren’t that good, then they lose interst and the conservative wins by default.
But lately there’s been demographic shift that the Republicans, being conservatives have disregarded and then underestimated—if they weren’t so blind to the present they would not have publicly trashed the Hispanic population as they did, but pandered to them instead.
So if the Republican leadership , like Spence, want to go back to their ‘roots’ to rebuild, they’ll be building themselves a smaller and even less relevant Party.
Go for it, i say!
November 10th, 2008 at 1:15 pmGlad to see they’ve yet to learn the lessons of 2006 and 2008. More of the same hypocrisy from the faux Party of Morality. Onward to 2010!
November 10th, 2008 at 1:18 pmThe Republican Party will become the party of the evangelical christians only. Theirs will be a push to create a theocracy around their interpretation of the Bible. Be very aware of what they say and do, for they are more like a cult than anyone wants to admit.
November 10th, 2008 at 1:24 pm5th Estate Says:
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So if the Republican leadership , like Spence, want to go back to their ‘roots’ to rebuild, they’ll be building themselves a smaller and even less relevant Party.
They are still working to do so. What choice do they have? Where would they find a new constituency?
They have shown their true colors to minorities. Can’t put that genie back in the bottle.
Young people don’t like Republican’s lack of concern for the future, and are repulsed by their intolerance.
Old, traditional conservatives have been leaving the party ever since it sold out to the religious nutcases and the leadership was taken over by imperialist neocons.
The GOP “big tent” is quickly becoming a pup tent with room only for a few bitter old white men and their Stepford wives.
November 10th, 2008 at 1:29 pmWho cares what these clowns have to say? The repukes are GONE and good riddence!
November 10th, 2008 at 1:37 pmMy take is that everyone is trying to push their own agenda as being the salvation of the repub party. An article yesterday had Gingrich as the rising star (sanctity of marriage Gingrich ?)
I really wonder which camp is going to be successful in hijacking the remains of the party.
In any case, they all seem to be talking more about window dressing than substance. (e.g.- promoting sanctity of marriage while in the background instituting fiscal conservancty as an unstated agenda). And this lack of clarity and forthrightness is, to me, a major reason NOT to go repub.
November 10th, 2008 at 1:47 pmIt seems like they will never learn! Most of these Republicans are such hypocrites! They need to stop trying to control every aspect of American’s lives.
November 10th, 2008 at 2:04 pmThese dumb mothers will keep talking about their so-called moral values and we progressives will continue to trounce them in the elections. We have come to a better day in this country where we will look to the future and not some neverwas “Leave It To Beaver” past.
First dirty words on television “Wally, weren’t you a little rough on the Beaver last night?”
November 10th, 2008 at 2:13 pmChrisSEA; I think I have the answer. Cognitive Dissonance is a prerequisite to be a party member in today’s GOP.
November 10th, 2008 at 2:17 pmPence: Conservatives Should Focus On Social Issues Like ‘The Sanctity Of Marriage’ While Rebuilding GOP
November 10th, 2008 at 2:22 pmHow about concentrating in WMD? Or mushroom clouds?
Yep. The GOP should absolutely do that. Keep moving in ever-shrinking circles. Clearly the American public is so much more concerned about the issue of the so-called “sanctity of marriage” (what are those divorce statistics again?) than the size of their retirement portfolio. Only they’re not.
November 10th, 2008 at 2:27 pmYankeluh Says:
These dumb mothers will keep talking about their so-called moral values and we progressives will continue to trounce them in the elections. We have come to a better day in this country where we will look to the future and not some neverwas “Leave It To Beaver” past.
.
.
.
November 10th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
So? Does this mean the real distinction between the parties will be one party believes in God and the other party doesn’t?
Or, is it already that way?
November 10th, 2008 at 2:44 pmMessage to the Dark Side:
“These are not the issues you’re looking for.”
November 10th, 2008 at 2:45 pmI think that the Republicans should focus on how Nixon’s invasion of Cambodia was a good thing. Deregulation of the financial markets should also proove useful. And if none of those work, then they should assure Americans that it’s their duty to go shopping. Actually, if they have footage from Palin at Saks, they could make it a national ad campaign. A four decade strategy.
November 10th, 2008 at 3:08 pmThe state should bow out of the whole marriage issue. Why is it a state matter? Why is a license necessary?
Define your own damned marriage.
November 10th, 2008 at 3:24 pmPlease, GOP, do keep pursuing this “winning” strategy.
November 10th, 2008 at 3:36 pmHey bitblt finally showed up.
Where’s Daryll today, bit? Is he feeling under the weather?
November 10th, 2008 at 3:50 pmChrisSEA Says:
I think Republicans live in a parallel universe from the rest of us. I read these statements and can’t believe they see what happened during this election.
I’m torn between the “parallel universe” theory or “separate species” theory.
November 10th, 2008 at 3:54 pmbitblt Says:
November 10th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
So? Does this mean the real distinction between the parties will be one party believes in God and the other party doesn’t?
Or, is it already that way?
Sorry to disappoint you, but lots of Progressives believe in God, many or most of those are even Christians. The difference between you guys and us is that we respect individuals’ right to choose their own beliefs, their own religion, including the choice to not believe at all. The real distinction is that many of those on the far-right who claim to be Christians, especially their leaders, are apostate and “false prophets,” and stand for the exact opposite. Unjustified war, support of torture, ignoring the poverty stricken and supporting a “prosperity” theology, and willingly allowing the environment to be despoiled. In my book, bud, that’s antichrist. Your “leadership” is interested in one thing: power..both political and economic, and they are using you and people like you to get it.
November 10th, 2008 at 4:16 pmwhy does bitblt always act like there is only one god? Hey bitblt just a heads up that their is a stem cell thread above. Maybe a good place to work in the abortion angle. Just trying to help…
November 10th, 2008 at 4:21 pmHi ralph, Daryll is upstairs worrying about KO rather than amusing us down here. Seems a big oversight on his part
November 10th, 2008 at 4:22 pm#67 – bitblt Says:
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“So? Does this mean the real distinction between the parties will be one party believes in God and the other party doesn’t?
Or, is it already that way?”
November 10th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
Well, the GOP seems to have divorced themelves from Christianity when they decided to ignore the teachings of Christ and NOT support the homeless and less fortunate.
You just might be right. The GOP has given up on the teachings of Christ, and turned their collective backs on God. ;-)
November 10th, 2008 at 4:24 pmralph the wonder llama Says:
Hey bitblt finally showed up.
Where’s Daryll today, bit? Is he feeling under the weather?
November 10th, 2008 at 3:50 pm
What touching concern…assuming it’s genuine.
You can ask him when he drops by?
impeachcheneythenbush Says:
.
.
.
Sorry to disappoint you, but lots of Progressives believe in God, many or most of those are even Christians. The difference between you guys and us is that we respect individuals’ right to choose their own beliefs, their own religion, including the choice to not believe at all. The real distinction is that many of those on the far-right who claim to be Christians, especially their leaders, are apostate and “false prophets,” and stand for the exact opposite. Unjustified war, support of torture, ignoring the poverty stricken and supporting a “prosperity” theology, and willingly allowing the environment to be despoiled. In my book, bud, that’s antichrist. Your “leadership” is interested in one thing: power..both political and economic, and they are using you and people like you to get it.
November 10th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
You may be correct on that, but the assertion you’re making about “your leaders” on the “…right” is not something bit indicated in his post.
Nonetheless, couldn’t the same thing be said about the left. bit believes the left has an interest in maintianing the category “poor.”
The difference between you guys and us is that we respect individuals’ right to choose their own beliefs, their own religion, including the choice to not believe at all.
November 10th, 2008 at 4:28 pmWhat belief could those on the left choose, other that Christianity, that would benefit the nation?
“religous bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise”
Was it “that” James Madison who said that?
November 10th, 2008 at 4:41 pmbitblt:
November 10th, 2008 at 4:50 pmDo you think Old Abe Lincoln benefitted the nation?
As a heterosexual male I’m disgusted by all these rethuglicans flaunting their sexuality. I don’t want to know that they engage in post-marital sex or the naughty things they do while consummating their relationship.
November 10th, 2008 at 4:59 pmdbadass Says:
“
Was it “that” James Madison who said that?
November 10th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Well. The founder were flesh and blood people for whom one isolated, 200+ year old quote, is probably not adequate.
He could have said that, but that’s not all he said.
from
James Madison and Religion in Public
David Barton – 09/2002
Third, Madison’s proposed wording for the First Amendment demonstrates that he opposed only the establishment of a federal denomination, not public religious activities. His proposal declared:
(Madison reemphasized that position throughout the debates. [5])
Fourth, in 1789, Madison served on the Congressional committee which authorized, approved, and selected paid Congressional chaplains. [6]
Fifth, in 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided a Bible Society in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible. [7]
Sixth, throughout his Presidency (1809-1816), Madison endorsed public and official religious expressions by issuing several proclamations for national days of prayer, fasting, and thanksgiving. [8]
These were the early actions of Madison. In later life Madison retreated from many of these positions, even declaring in his “Detached Memoranda” his belief that having paid chaplains and issuing presidential prayer proclamations were unconstitutional. Recent Courts have made a point of citing Madison’s “Detached Memoranda” in arguing against public religious expressions. [9]
Significantly, the “Detached Memoranda” was “discovered” in 1946 in the papers of Madison biographer William Cabell Rives and was first published more than a century after Madison’s death by Elizabeth Fleet in the October 1946 William & Mary Quarterly. In that work, Madison expressed his opposition to many of his own earlier beliefs and practices and set forth a new set of beliefs formerly unknown even to his closest friends. Since Madison never made public or shared with his peers his sentiments found in the “Detached Memoranda,” and since his own public actions were at direct variance with this later writing, it is difficult to argue that it reflects the Founders’ intent toward religion.
Quoted from
http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=105
BTW dbadass, do you suppose “…every noble enterprise…” would have included abortion and same-same gender marriage in Madison’s understanding?
November 10th, 2008 at 5:33 pmI think lincoln may have said…
“My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures have become clearer and stronger with advancing years, and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them.”
November 10th, 2008 at 5:37 pmunbiased linky?
November 10th, 2008 at 5:38 pmdbadass Says:
unbiased linky?
November 10th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
Wasn’t aware that “unbiased” was something in which you have an interest?
For bit, the only “unbiased” he’s looking for is this: What is it that’s better that Christianity? What belief would be better for holding the nation together?
November 10th, 2008 at 5:42 pmI am guessing that Madison probably would have seen the abortion thing as a private matter. Abortion is not new nor unique to the US. Cultures throughout time have dealt with the matter which is why so many aboriginal groups new the aborticidial agents found in native plants.
What is better than Christianity? Oh I don’t know… I figure it is no better nor worse than any other religion if your into religion.
November 10th, 2008 at 5:49 pmWow, so far today, I have managed to screw up the your/you’re thing, the new/knew thing, and the their/there thing. What’s next to, two, and too?
November 10th, 2008 at 5:59 pmConservatives should get out of people’s private lives. Same sex marriage does not hurt anyone. It is a civil right protected by the XIVth Amendment.
November 10th, 2008 at 8:06 pmbitblt says: What belief could those on the left choose, other that Christianity, that would benefit the nation?
Peace
Love
Understanding
Tolerance
Golden Rule-’Do unto others as you would have them do unto you’
Kindness
Charity
Humanism
Baseball
Basketball
Football
Education
Sex
Rock N Roll
Happiness
Did Christianity bring together:
The Inquisition?
1930’s Germany?
1930’s Italy?
The KKK?
Aryan Nation?
Jonestown?
Branch Davidians?
Salem?
The US 1861-65?
England during their Civil War?
France during their Reign of Terror?
Latin America during their revolutions?
Europe 1914-18?
Europe 1939-45?
Christianity did bring together Europe in the genocide of tens of millions of non-Christians in the New World.
November 10th, 2008 at 8:24 pmKeith, you have said more to my friend bitblt than I have ever hoped to.
November 10th, 2008 at 9:04 pmAwwww…you repubs have been working too hard, take a break. Sex-text some teenage boys for a while, tour some restroom stalls, and come back fresh, so to speak…
November 10th, 2008 at 9:10 pmdbadass, didn’t know it was your friend—I would have taken it easier on it. :)
November 10th, 2008 at 10:06 pmShould include the ENVIRONMENT in list of positive things. It’s pretty important.
November 10th, 2008 at 10:32 pmGood idea Pence. I really really really hope that you’re the best Republicans have to offer.
November 10th, 2008 at 11:31 pmBilbo Hussein Baggins says:
“…and one [state] approved the use of Medical Marijuana.”
It was Michigan, I believe.
Back to Pence, I think that he and a lot of other Republicans who exhibit such obvious denial of reality are in serious need of psychotherapy. I hope that there are enough shrinks in DC to handle them.
November 11th, 2008 at 12:23 amadd Nature to positive list.
November 11th, 2008 at 1:00 ambitmoron
So? Does this mean the real distinction between the parties will be one party believes in God and the other party doesn’t?
Or, is it already that way?
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No it isnt anywhere near that way. The way it is goes like this our side has a lot of really smart people and yours if full or REALLY stupid morons like YOU. Or as John Stuart Mills said while it is true that not all conservatives are stupid people it is true that most stupid people are conservatives. YOU are a stupid person who is conservative thus an incredibly ignorant post like this one.
November 11th, 2008 at 2:22 ambitblt Says:
Nonetheless, couldn’t the same thing be said about the left. bit believes the left has an interest in maintianing the category “poor.”
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bitmoron believes this because he is REALLY stupid and was TOLD to believe this by his Limborg masters. Its pure undistilled ignorance and makes no sense whatsoever but it is a really stupid way to bash the left. The kind of bashing ignoramuses like bit just love, that is the really stupid kind
The difference between you guys and us is that we respect individuals’ right to choose their own beliefs, their own religion, including the choice to not believe at all.
What belief could those on the left choose, other that Christianity, that would benefit the nation?
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A false dichotomy. Choosing things like tolerance, love for one another are not STRICTLY Christian. Ghandi was not a Christian and yet emulated exactly those qualities quite well. The left could do the same. Leaving Christianity out of it entirely many good beliefs can be chosen by the left. Egalitarianism. Supremecy of the rule of law. Helping the needy. How about no longer voting for the villiage idiot like Bush to run things, basic competence would be nice. None of these are STRICTLY Christian concepts nor are they rejections of Christianity. Stuff your false dichotomy
November 11th, 2008 at 2:30 ambitblt Says: 82
So your biased website says. Lets look at some REAL QUOTES by the founding fathers that show they didnt want religion within a country MILE of government
James Madison
In no instance have… the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.
The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries.
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/james_madison.html
“The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State.” (1819). James Madison
“How a regulation so unjust in itself, so foreign to the authority of Congress, and so hurtful to the sale of public land, and smelling so strongly of an antiquated bigotry, could have received the countenance of a committee is truly a matter of astonishment .” (Madison, 1785, letter to James Monroe, on a failed attempt by congress to set aside public funds to support churches) James Madison
“The appropriation of funds of the United States for the use and support of religious societies, [is] contrary to the article of the Constitution which declares that ‘Congress shall make no law respecting a religious establishment’” (James Madison, Veto, 1811)
Benjamin Franklin
Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.”
“I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.”
“Some volumes against Deism fell into my hands. They were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle’s Lecture. It happened that they produced on me an effect precisely the reverse of what was intended by the writers; for the arguments of the Deists, which were cited in order to be refuted, appealed to me much more forcibly than the refutation itself. In a word, I soon became a thorough Deist.” Benjamin Franklin, from his autobiography
John Adams
“The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.” John Adams
“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” John Adams, Treaty of Tripoly, article 11
“But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.” John Adams, letters to family and other leaders 1735-1826
Thomas Jefferson
“Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites.” Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia
“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
Give it up. There is NO WAY to read the founding fathers and believe a majority of them wanted Christianity to rule our government or to be PART of our government. This country was set up on enlightenment principles NOT religious principles. That is individual religious freedom should be respected. GOVERNMENT should be kept seperate from religion. It is just that simple
November 11th, 2008 at 2:51 ambitblt Says:
Wasn’t aware that “unbiased” was something in which you have an interest?
For bit, the only “unbiased” he’s looking for is this: What is it that’s better that Christianity? What belief would be better for holding the nation together?
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That is easy. That people and the CONSTITUTION are the proper repositories of power. That they should make up their OWN minds about religion and government. That religion is a PERSONAL choice and only those weak in their belief would demand that GOVERNMENT give THEIR religion some imprimatuer or official validation. That it is the HEIGHT of arrogance to demand that OTHERS conform to YOUR religious beliefs that to demand that is frankly un-American.
November 11th, 2008 at 2:56 amWhen the Republicans embraced Jerry Falwell and the religious right as Reagan came to power, they made a pact with the devil that is now coming to pass. They knew that they could never be the majority party unless they broadened their base because there would never get enough support from just the pro-big business crowd and foreign policy hawks. This has been an unholy alliance with all three groups in an uneasy coalition for years united just by the lust for power. With Atwater, Rove, et. al., they embraced win at all costs by promoting hate, fear, bigotry and greed. The anti-government, anti-tax mantra, along with the religious right’s insistence on and obsession with being in our bedrooms and doctor’s offices has proven to be hollow and morally bankrupt. Long ago they hung out a sign that said “Rich, White, Straight, Christian Males Only”. The American people have demonstrated with this election that they have moved beyond the destructive politics of greed and fear. If the Republicans can’t or won’t move to a pragmatic, center right conservativism that embraces diversity of ideas and people, and focuses on problem solving rather than adhering to rigid ideology, then they have no chance at becoming a majority again anytime in the foreseeable future. The Democrats don’t have all the answers but they mostly walk the talk about inclusiveness, concern for ordinary Americans, and a desire to make things better. They have their work cut out for them and if they fail to produce then they too will have to face the consequences. However, even if that happens, the Republicans should not assume that these old ways will be embraced again, because they won’t.
November 11th, 2008 at 9:20 am