Conservative Politicians Misleadingly Blame Labor Unions For Detroit’s Woes
Conservative Politicians Misleadingly Blame Labor Unions For Detroit’s Woes
Congress and the Bush administration are currently considering whether to spend $25 billion to rescue Detroit automakers. The proposal has generally been met with stiff resistance from conservatives, who have increasingly been pinning all the blame for the crisis in Detroit on labor unions:
Sen. Jim DeMint: “Some auto manufacturers are struggling because of a bad business structure with high unionized labor costs and burdensome federal regulations. Taxpayers did not create these problems and they should not be forced to pay for them.”
Sen. Jon Kyl: “For years they’ve been sick. They have a bad business model. They have contracts negotiated with the United Auto Workers that impose huge costs.The average hourly cost per worker in this country is about $28.48. For these auto makers, it’s $73. And for the Japanese auto companies working here in the United States, it’s $48.”
Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger: “You know, if you pay the auto workers or the benefits and all of those things, are maybe too high. … We have, like, in America, you sell a car, and you have $2,000 of each car just goes to benefits. So I think that there’s a way of reducing all of that, make them more fiscally responsible.”
Watch a compilation:
Unions do not deserve the blame placed on them by the right wing. In fact, unions have repeatedly made concessions to auto executives over recent years. Contrary to Kyl’s claim, new auto employees earn $25.65 an hour.
Big Three automaker CEOs and executives based their business model on a future of cheap oil, fighting fuel efficiency standards despite warnings against such a strategy. Detroit manufactured, as Tom Friedman pointed out, oversized gas-guzzling SUVs that reduced their competitive edge.
Financial firms AIG, Merrill Lynch, and Bear Stearns did not have unionized workers but still suffered economic collapses. Frozen credit markets and a spiraling recession were major contributors to Detroit’s current state. Today, the Center for American Progress urged Congress “to support legislation to grant a $25 billion bridge loan to the U.S. auto companies to ensure that they avoid bankruptcy” provided the automakers provide health and retirement security and invest in clean technology.
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Taxpayers did not create these problems and they should not be forced to pay for them.
LOL That’s funny… in a sad way.
November 17th, 2008 at 9:14 pmThe United Auto Workers Union, in fact, has made so many concessions to executives that workers would rather work for Japanese automakers even though they don’t have unions because the pay’s better and so’s the benefit package, as this article states.
November 17th, 2008 at 9:15 pmThat’s right. We need more deregulation and lower paid workers. And we’ve seen what that brings. Yeah, American auto manufacturers needs to be allowed to hire minimum wage workers to turn out 4-wheeled turds that break in half in 6 months. That’ll really turn around the auto industry. Republicans are the stupidest, most short sighted people on the face of the earth. They will go to their graves believing that paying 3 people $20-$30 million a year and the workers virtually nothing will solve the problem. Idiots!
November 17th, 2008 at 9:21 pmVery disingenuous of them to blame the unions for these problems. There are no unions in the financial industry. The auto mfrs. are guilty of shortsightedness and greed, they have become complacent; it is easier to sell Americans cars based on whatever psychological reason du jour.
November 17th, 2008 at 9:24 pmUnions drove hard bargains, but both parties signed on those contracts.
Repugs complaining and pointing figners today are just trying to create a public mindset that will further denigrate unions, and all the benefits that ALL workers have derived from the work of the unions will begin to evaporate. It will be unfettered management.
Republicans are really the Grand Oligarch Party.
What is the aggregate per hour for each of the CEOs and upper management of these companies?
November 17th, 2008 at 9:26 pmWhen they say $73/hour for auto factory workers, they are counting everything — what’s the per hour for those in the financial industry?
Republican means never having to blame any Republicans.
November 17th, 2008 at 9:30 pmOh, wait, unless you’re Sarah Palin– then you blame everybody but yourself.
November 17th, 2008 at 9:32 pmGee maybe making crappy gas guzzling cars no one wants to buy is to blame? Nah lets blame Obama instead.
November 17th, 2008 at 9:43 pmReally something wrong when the GOP begrudges union workers jobs that actually make a living wage (it’s not the workers responsibility that management made awful cars no one wants to buy and fought every safety standard and any raising of the CAFE standards) yet the dimest bulp in the GOP, Bible Spice is set to get $7 million for her book deal. I wonder if Piper will help her with the coloring….
November 17th, 2008 at 9:43 pmI can’t recall exactly who it was that was interviewed, but it was one of the top execs of the Big Three. In response to a question about sales of SUVs being hurt by the high price of oil and the negative overall effect that was having on their business, this guy responds “We never saw this coming.” And THAT is why the top executives of the Big Three need to go away. If the government either gives them another big loan or actually injects money into their businesses, that has to be a primary condition. (Many of us, who aren’t even connected in any way, to the auto industry “saw this coming.”)
November 17th, 2008 at 9:43 pmThis is the real class-warfare that the culture of corruption Republicans have been waging since the 1930s: white-collar versus blue-collar.
This is why U.S. Treachery Secretary Henry Paulson has thrown hundreds of billions of dollars at distressed Wall Street firms and banks (white-collar criminals) while he and Republicans are loathe to help Detroit and distressed U.S. automakers, because Detroit labor unions, like the United Auto Workers, are blue-collar.
And the culture of Republicans are pushing an alternative plan for Detroit automakers…bankruptcy and reorganization…which is another way of Republicans attacking the blue-collar labor unions.
So, the Republicans have brought us full-circle because of their conservative insanity…from the Herbert Hoover years to the George W. Bush years…leaving a huge mess to clean-up.
November 17th, 2008 at 9:45 pmO.T., but I gave up trying to watch the Maddow show with Huffington subbing for her. ARRRG!!! Ariena makes a good guest, but as a host….yikes! After 30 minutes, I was bored out of my skull. Rachel — have mercy!
November 17th, 2008 at 9:45 pmDAMN! Why doesn’t someone just put those ignorant Rethuglican scumbags out of their misery? It is bad enough to have to watch two Pop Warner East Coast frisby teams on Monday Night Football. It is another to have to be subjected to a whole lot of wailin’ by the failin’ Palin sniffers on my favorite blog. Conjecture on the White House Dog would be more informative and entertaining than the Repuke crying TP has posted all day.
November 17th, 2008 at 9:46 pmAnd the culture of Republicans are pushing an alternative plan for Detroit automakers…bankruptcy and reorganization…which is another way of Republicans attacking the blue-collar labor unions.
Their mantra is that the automakers should take Chapter 11 and reorganize. Yeah…but that assumes they could get any credit lines or loans that would enable them to do so. In other words, it ain’t gonna happen. If they go bankrupt, it will be Chapter 7 and complete liquidation.
November 17th, 2008 at 9:48 pmimpeachcheneythenbush Says:
“O.T., but I gave up trying to watch the Maddow show with Huffington subbing for her. ARRRG!!! Ariena makes a good guest, but as a host….yikes! After 30 minutes, I was bored out of my skull. Rachel — have mercy!”
Amen, Brother. That’s why I had the Bill Brown Comedy show on before I came here.
Rachel for President in 2016!!
November 17th, 2008 at 9:49 pmI’m so tired of the story that SUV’ss have destroyed Detroit. The profit margins from the trucks, SUV’s, and minivans have kept us alive for the last 15 years.
The really sad thing is the cost inequality between the transplants and the Detroit 3 has reduced the standard of living for the average worker in the US.
The only way to save GM, Chrysler, and Ford is to implement a single payer health care system. This will both level the playing field and provide a system where people don’t go bankrupt because they get sick. The other necessary change is a government takeover of the UAW pension system. This will leave the domestic automakers competitive.
The issue most don’t understand is that the suppliers, mostly un-unionized, are in desperate conditions as well. If GM, or anyone else, were to declare bankruptcy, the outstanding receivables will send the suppliers into bankruptcy as well. These are suppliers that provide parts to not only GM, Chrysler, Ford, but Toyota, Honda, BMW, etc. The effects will be catastrophic to the entire nation,
November 17th, 2008 at 9:51 pmFord just released images for the new 2010 Mustang.
Now, tell me with a straight face that I can’t have this car and that I must have a boring econobox. If the domestics are bailed out, the Dems have to realize that not everyone wants an econobox. There are plenty of people that want Mustangs, Corvettes, Camaros and Challengers, too.
November 17th, 2008 at 9:54 pmMust not have anything to do with building enormous gas guzzling status symbols instead of transportation units that minimize pollution, maximize efficiency and are kind to one’s wallet.
November 17th, 2008 at 9:57 pmWith a straight face, ferrariguy, get a car, not a toy.
November 17th, 2008 at 9:58 pmOh, and the Tesla roadster or sedan is not an econobox.
While you’re at it, buy six or seven ATVs, several personal watercraft, nine motor homes and a canoe.
November 17th, 2008 at 10:00 pmthere are also plenty of dudes with little dicks…
November 17th, 2008 at 10:01 pmLabor has taken all the hits that it can, giving tons of concessions to Big Business everywhere. Why do these cons think the economy is so bad? If union members were making hundreds of thousands a year, the Rust Belt would be just peachy…
http://www.sunstateactivist.org/ssablog/
November 17th, 2008 at 10:06 pmferrarimanf355 Says:
Ford just released images for the new 2010 Mustang.
__________
Can anyone explain what point this idiot thinks he’s making?
November 17th, 2008 at 10:12 pmAnother case of blame the workers. The CEO’s and CFO’s of the banking and credit industries FU big time and they run to congress begging for bucks and we give in and give them $700 Billion for their million dollar bonuses and dividends for their stockholders. That’s just BS!
I’m not saying that $25 Billion not a lot of money, but there are a shitload of jobs on the line. It’s not just the autoworkers. It’s the grocers and retailers and everyone that is in the autoworker’s economic sphere that’s going to be hurt if they fail.
Tha American auto industry won’t come back once it’s lost. We’ll all be driving cars with oriental or european names.
On the subject of the bank and credit market bailouts, how about we do a Trickle Up Bailout. The banks and the credit companies have to suffer along with the American people. The way it works is that banks MUST reduce interest rates on all mortgages by 2% and resign the mortgages at the current value of the properties. The credit companies MUST reduce the top interest of loans to 7% and credit cards to no more then 10%. Unless they agree to do so, they will receive NO bailout money. If there is no benefit for the American people, there’s no benefits for the banking and credit industry.
I’d rather see the banks and credit companies go under then the auto companies.
“We are here today to repeal Glass-Steagall because we have learned that government is not the answer. We have learned that freedom and competition are the answers. We have learned that we promote economic growth and we promote stability by having competition and freedom.
“I am proud to be here because this is an important bill (Gramm – Leach – Bliley Banking Modernization Bill); it is a deregulatory bill. I believe that that is the wave of the future, and I am awfully proud to have been a part of making it a reality.” – Senator and Lobbyist Phil Gramm
“Obviously, after setting out a dramatic change in public policy, it is fair to set out a test for determining its success. How will people judge whether we were successful in passing this bill today? My test is, What are we trying to do in the bill? Are we trying to benefit banks or insurance companies or securities companies, or are we trying to benefit consumers and workers?” – Senator and Lobbyist Phil Gramm
Uhhhh, the banks, insurance companies and securities companies!
November 17th, 2008 at 10:16 pmThey really understated their case. The auto industry could have started looking at sustainable transportation 20 years ago and taken the lead. Instead they have squandered their chance and now can only play a hectic game of catching up.
For 30 years the tree huggers have been warning of gas shortages and greenhouse effects and the auto execs fought it so they could sell the higher profit luxury cars – with car prices rising from a few thousand dollars when I was a kid to 30k and $ 40k not being totally out of the picture (I’d guess a midline car is now around $20,000 vs. $ 6.50 an hour for a year is only about $ 13k).
When gas prices in Europe were over a euro per liter, they did nothing.
Giving money to the Bush cabal, they did nothing when Bush’s rep said that Shrub supported the right of Americans to burn all the gasoline they wanted.
California had its energy brownouts, and they didn’t get the hint.
The repubs pushed through the SUV rebate.
Gas in the USA threatened $4 a gallon.
So now, the industrial stock market is in the sewer. Nobody wants to buy a Humvee that gets 8 mpg. So the value of the gas hogs has fallen.
And the poor schmuck making minimum wage is supposed to pay taxes to bail them out.
In the early Bush
In the last 8 years
November 17th, 2008 at 10:21 pmIn most acceptable accounting systems the total hourly labor wage consists of three elements: (1) Direct Labor (wages plus Government directed costs and directed benefits i.e. holiday pay, vacation pay, health insurance, etc. which are usually standard for a particular industry directly related to an employees time on the job); (2) Overhead (Those costs directly attributable to facilitating the employees in the completion of their job i.e. machine costs, facility costs, utility costs etc. associated directly with production); and (3) General and Administrative (Those costs associated with the CORPORATE thieves, including profit: i.e. CORPORATE GREED.) The first two elements are pretty much standard across any industry and much effort is put into reducing these costs. The third element is the one that drove the US Auto companies to the brink, not the UAW, which is only concerned with less than 60% of the direct labor costs. The difference between the “hourly wage” of the big three and Toyota is not the direct labor rate but the G and A (#3) costs or bluntly: CORPORATE GREED. A solution to the problem: the US Government take over the assets of the big three as Public Domain and contract with Toyota to run the business on an incentive fee contract.
November 17th, 2008 at 10:25 pmFerrariman has a point. We should be able to drive the cars we can afford and want to drive. Me, personally, have wanted a Challenger ever since they came out in 1970. Now I want one of the new ones. But, sadly, personal finances prohibit that at this moment.
If we convince the big 3 to make their cars flex fuel and promote more ethanol production they and we can stick it to the oil companies that have profited mercilessly on the backs of the automakers and us. Big oil made obscene amounts of money from the cars turned out by Detroit. Why don’t they help the automakers? Because they just don’t care. Well I say to hell with big oil. Make them understand the meaning of suffering. Ethanol all the way. Brazil did it. Why the hell can’t we?
We can make fast and good looking cars that get good gas mileage. I used to have a 1986 Buick LeSabre with a 3.0 V6. It got 31 mpg highway. My 1994 Chrysler LHS 3.5 V6 that had more power than most V8’s of it’s day also got 31 mpg highway. Today I have a 2006 Nissan Altima with a 2.5 4 cylinder that only gets 25 mpg highway. Why is that?
November 17th, 2008 at 10:27 pmMr. Evil Says: “Why is that?”
One word: GREED!
(See comment 26)
November 17th, 2008 at 10:33 pmSo f#cking obvious, who are these bastards spinning the union BS?
If auto manufacturers made cars with 40 MPG (like they could have if they weren’t in he pocket of Big Oil)they’d be selling like hotcakes.
We gotta get these Fascist conservatives out of our lives forever. They are so unbelievably stupid. That’s why they are labeled the ‘lunatic fringe’.
November 17th, 2008 at 10:45 pmThe definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again, while expecting a different result.
And we keep letting them do it…
November 17th, 2008 at 10:50 pmRUCerious,
I’m sorry, what were you saying about Tesla?
The Republic of Stupidity,
That song from Prince isn’t called Little Red Prius, bro. Nobody in their right mind puts up a poster of an EV1 in their dorm room. Some people like to have fun while driving.
Mr. Evil,
November 17th, 2008 at 10:52 pmHopefully, if the domestics survive, they accumulate enough fuel-sippers to get a high enough CAFE average to get the wiggle room needed for some muscle cars. That is, if they’re not stupid and kill off those legendary marques in the first place…
After 911 bush told Americans to go shopping. He defended the Suv marketing. The car companies listened and for several years did ok with the hummers, etc.
Reality is just something the republicans and their business partners don’t want to deal with but they have dragged us into their reality with them.
November 17th, 2008 at 10:54 pmWell football players don’t but then most of us had pictures of girls instead.
Of course football players have contributed significantly to the advancement of our society in many fields including art and science so of course they should be setting the pace for the rest of us…….oh yeah, they are.
Yeah, when you are raising a family and worrying about health care and retirement you must not forget how important that gas guzzling status symbol is even if your children must die of common diseases in order for you to have one of them.
November 17th, 2008 at 10:58 pmTaxpayers did not create these problems and they should not be forced to pay for them.
Neither did we, the taxpayers, create the subprime mess nor did we encourage Wall Street to speculate with *our* money on “hedge” funds and other equally ludicrous get-rich-quick-schemes.
Yet, here we are, paying for AIG’s we’re-in-the-money bash.
November 17th, 2008 at 11:00 pmferrarimanf355 Says:
Nobody in their right mind puts up a poster of an EV1 in their dorm room. Some people like to have fun while driving.
—-
November 17th, 2008 at 11:03 pmAre you that guy “Frances” aka “Cruiser” from Stripes?
A Union creates a safer working environment, qualified workers, professions, a secure legal grievance committee, better supervisors among other things.
November 17th, 2008 at 11:10 pmI hate to sound like a broken record, but if we had universal health care on a single payer system in this country, then “$2,000 of each car” wouldn’t have to go to worker benefits. Even if auto manufacturers paid higher taxes to pay for government-paid health care, it wouldn’t come close to what they’re shelling out for health care under our current system of for-profit greedhead providers.
And this would be true whether the workers were unionized or not.
November 17th, 2008 at 11:16 pmAnd the Republican Congress passed a tax law allowing huge deductions for businesses buying SUV’s.
My Representative, Mike Conaway, joined the union trashing. I chose to straighten out his erroneous statement.
November 17th, 2008 at 11:22 pmThe pay-off means the government will charge interest to the people who want to borrow their own damn money.
Sounds like a winning repug shituation.
chimpy made it difficult for US citizens to file bankruptcy but made it easier for the greedy fat cats to receive $849+b mulligan.
I watched a show about average citizens dying because of IRS intimidation but these cheats get a break and some don’t even pay taxes.
All awhile greedy oil barons get to brag about their huge profits.
And repugs what a comeback?
November 17th, 2008 at 11:25 pmFinancial rescue program (FRP) is now at $4.28 trillion. Goldman Sachs’ stock keeps nosediving because people don’t know how they will make money in the future.
How is this different from big auto?
November 17th, 2008 at 11:26 pmOn the other hand, nitwit, the systematic destruction of organized labor is a major contributor to the widening gap between the filthy rich and normal people. There is a glut of eight buck an hour jobs out there, but there isn’t anywhere that one can live on that wage.. Renegotiating the UAWs living wage is not an option, unless one is trying to turn the US into a feudal society.
November 17th, 2008 at 11:26 pmferrarimanf355 Says:
The Republic of Stupidity
That song from Prince isn’t called Little Red Prius, bro. Nobody in their right mind puts up a poster of an EV1 in their dorm room. Some people like to have fun while driving.
______________
Clearly, you DON’T UNDERSTAND the point of the thread. There’s no causal relationship between unions and what people drive, dumdum. You’re putting up a straw man w/ your comment.
I like driving too, and it’s also clear that you never drove an EV1.
November 18th, 2008 at 12:02 amFred,
Yeah, when you are raising a family and worrying about health care and retirement you must not forget how important that gas guzzling status symbol is even if your children must die of common diseases in order for you to have one of them.
Hey, leave the muscle cars out of this. You do know that a Corvette can get 26 MPG on the highway, and that owners are reporting that they can get 30 on the highway in light driving?
Don’t you dare tell me what cars to lust after…
November 18th, 2008 at 12:27 amGo play with your toys, ferrarifreak. We have a planet to clean up.
November 18th, 2008 at 12:30 amThe Republic of Stupidity Says:
ferrarimanf355 Says:
Ford just released images for the new 2010 Mustang.
__________
Can anyone explain what point this idiot thinks he’s making?
What was that line from Shrek? “Maybe he’s making up for something?”
Just saying the login says it all
November 18th, 2008 at 1:00 amIn all honesty, the existing union workers are sucking GM dry. $78.21/hour including union dues and benefits – that’s over $162k/year each one of those workers is costing GM (and by extension their customers) – and obviously no special skills are required or GM wouldn’t be able to and wouldn’t want to replace them with new hires at 1/3 the cost.
That’s beyond insane. Almost as insane as deciding that what America needed more than ANYTHING until a few months ago was more Hummers.
Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW, and the other well-managed car manufacturers will be happy to take on the extra business. They have American workers who need to make a living and have the advantage of working for companies that aren’t stuck in the 1950s.
Let GM die. I really don’t care. The free market seems to have made a decision on their fate anyway. The last thing we need is another “bailout” like the last one, and writing them a check isn’t going to change their seriously outdated business model.
November 18th, 2008 at 1:07 amHow about this–the OIL COMPANIES PAY TO BAIL OUT THE BIG THREE. They started this mess when they went out of their way to lobby for these massive gas guzzlers so they could make enormous profits. They have the money, make them pay. Windfall profits, my tush! And they should pay for all kinds of environmental clean up and flex fuel technology as well. NO MORE TAX BREAKS FOR THESE FREELOADERS–they should not be the giant talking head that runs our economy anymore!!
November 18th, 2008 at 1:09 am.
When will these Fascists just come out of the closet, already?
FACT – ALL Fascist Governments hate unions.
.
November 18th, 2008 at 1:09 amAnd just what did America expect when they allowed a Texas oilman and his cronies in the White House? You could see this day coming YEARS ago.
Unions are the backbone of America–Musiclover. Read a little US history. They are not the problem here.
November 18th, 2008 at 1:15 amIn fact, MusicLover, because it’s late and I’m slightly cranky anyway, I will ask if you read the entire top portion of this thread, especially the part about the unions at the bottom? You know, the part UNDER the Video link? Just saying…
November 18th, 2008 at 1:25 amstateofthedivision Says: My Representative, Mike Conaway, joined the union trashing. I chose to straighten out his erroneous statement.
That was cool!! I like, very much.
November 18th, 2008 at 1:31 amMusicLover Says:
Well musiclover you have drunk of the kool-aid. The problem is NEVER that upper management takes bonuses that put their compensation over the roof. Its ALWAYS the fault that some working slob is making a good living. To the Ebeneezer Scrooge crowd there should only be rich and poor. Also FACTS dont matter. Facts like in Japan TOYOTA AND NISSAN ARE UNION. Or, Japan has had a higher average wage than the US since the 70’s. Of course their companies dont have to ADD the price of healthcare since in Japan like most of the worlds civilized countries it is a national right NO ONE PAYS for their healthcare except with taxes. I suppose the skyrocketing healthcare costs are the UNIONS fault? You are brainwashed musicguy. It is the parasites at the top that are sucking the lifeblood out of this country. For instance wasnt it wonderful how prices of cars went DOWN when they started making their cars and carparts in Mexico? Oh wait THAT DIDNT HAPPEN. You are a useful idiot. Parroting the propaganda of wealth. Lets solve this problem on the backs of the worker. I notice when we bailed out Wall St no one was complaining about how much the Wall St executives made. Does ANYONE here think autoworkers make more than Wall St execs. Idiots are just programmed what to think and spew then do it when the buzzwords are spoken. Far better trained than Pavlovs dogs. I make more money than an auto worker and yet somehow MY company seems to make profits and in fact it made a record profit this last year. You dont know what you are talking about music guy and never will as long as you let the Am radio screechmonkeys do your thinking for you.
November 18th, 2008 at 2:26 amDaimler, VW, BMW and Porsche are all unionized. None of them are going bankrupt. They all have better management than GM, Ford or Chrysler.
So, how exactly are unions to blame?
One thing the conservatives never fail to overlook: foreign automakers benefit by having national healthcare in their countries. GM, Ford and Chrysler have to pay health care costs themselves, putting them at a disadvantage. Yet conservatives keep blocking “socialized” healthcare, even though it would make US industry stronger. Doesn’t capitalism need strong industry?
November 18th, 2008 at 2:56 amRUCerious,
But not at the expense of cars that are actually fun to drive. And what’s with the name calling? I thought you progressives were tolerant. I must have run into the wrong group here.
November 18th, 2008 at 3:52 amferrarimanf355 Says:
Ford just released images for the new 2010 Mustang.
Now, tell me with a straight face that I can’t have this car and that I must have a boring econobox. If the domestics are bailed out, the Dems have to realize that not everyone wants an econobox. There are plenty of people that want Mustangs, Corvettes, Camaros and Challengers, too.
Sounds like somebody trying to compensate for a small wang.
November 18th, 2008 at 3:53 ambob hussein lablah,
If you have to resort to juvenile name calling, then refrain from commenting. Better to make people simply think you’re stupid than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
And the size of my junk is just fine, thanks for asking. Now go take your childish insults somewhere else, like the Hot Rod Magazine forums, and see how long you last…
November 18th, 2008 at 3:56 ami find it hard that any politician who have the best benefit packages of anyone in this country would have the balls point out and question someone else’s benefit packages. then again, we are talking repucklicans, the party of no shame
November 18th, 2008 at 5:39 amThese are the same people who think gays are responsible for their marriage problems.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Qi4ezdmO08
November 18th, 2008 at 5:46 amPart of what Schwartzenegger saids is probably true. The cost of a car has incorporated into it some cost for benefits.
1) We need production and manufacturing of automobiles that get better mileage.
2) Workers must do that for a fair and good wage.
3) They should eliminate health benefits.
WOW! What??? Yep. Eliminate them because these workers will be covered under a UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE PLAN FOR ALL. One that covers everyone, that has price controls for drugs, devices and diagnostics, that eliminates the outrageous bureaucracy of insurance forms, claims, denials and local genocide.
If we saved BILLIONS on that, had a national health care and union workers didn’t need to beg for that because we ALL HAVE COVERAGE, costs would go down, wages go up, fewer people would go into foreclosure, etc.
November 18th, 2008 at 6:47 amthe Hot Rod Magazine forums sound as cool as the PowerToolsRUS and the AllThingsCamo forums…
November 18th, 2008 at 7:45 amGeorgeM is absolutely right in his comment above.
November 18th, 2008 at 7:46 amThis is the same old Republican slogan from ideologues afraid to have a deeper conversation about all the factors that go into why U.S. automakers have had such trouble for awhile. Check this article from earlier this year on profits from European carmakers. If the problem is unions and all the benefits they have to pay (which is a cheap scapegoat), then why not compare them to the situations of their competitors’ workers: Volkswagon, Toyota, Volvo, Fiat, Peugeot, Kia, etc. You find that, yes, the workers are part of very different welfare states, corporate taxation systems, etc. Will we ever get past this ridiculous sloganeering in the age of political branding and “staying on message” in order to have a serious public discussion about such things? Such a disservice to Americans trying to figure out what solutions will work.
Jayson Harsin
dbadass, you are just cracking me up lately.
Game on, trollies!!
By the way, GM is going to kill the Volt. Another electric car bites the dust thanks to the big three.
November 18th, 2008 at 7:50 amand Ferrariman, no one is “Forcing” the big 3 to make efficient cars. Chalk that one up to Adam Smith’s invisible hand. Nobody wants to buy the big-3’s crappy cars anymore.
November 18th, 2008 at 7:58 amRepublicans (conservatives) are against whatever Democrats (liberals) are for.
This is the polarization that has occurred in the United States.
Democrats weigh ideas, no matter which side of the aisle generates the idea, and if it helps the most people, protects the most children, promotes the most freedom, strengthening our nation as a whole, then Democrats will back that idea.
Republicans, on the other hand, have defined themselves as being against anything that Democrats are for, thus making possible the Bush/Cheney years and the damage that these two arch-conservative Republicans have done to our liberal democracy.
Bush and Cheney entered the White House in January 2001 with the intent of undoing everything Democrats had ever done, even if what Democrats had done had benefited the most American citizens, spreading our nation’s wealth among the many versus the Bush/Cheney goal of hoarding our nation’s wealth among the few.
This is why Bush and Cheney immediately started doing the exact opposite of what the previous president, Bill Clinton, had done as president.
Bill Clinton’s administration had taken the al Qaeda threat very seriously…so Bush and Cheney completely blew off the threat, even going so far as to downgrade the terrorist threat as a priority throughout our law enforcement and intelligence agencies…until 9/11 happened.
Bill Clinton’s administration had generated a federal budget surplus in its final two years…so Bush and Cheney pushed tax cuts heavily weighted toward the wealthiest, leading to huge budget deficits and a federal debt that has doubled to $10 Trillion in eight years.
Bill Clinton’s administration was for the “rule of law” and going to the FISA court…so Bush and Cheney decided they’d be “above the law” (i.e. lawless) and circumvent the FISA court at every opportunity…giving rise to illegal warrantless wiretapping of U.S. citizens and major violations of the civil liberties and constitutional protections of U.S. citizens.
Bill Clinton’s administration was for Social Security, environmental protection, worker safety and oversight/regulation of the marketplace…so Bush and Cheney did everything possible to either overturn or undercut Social Security, environmental protection, worker safety and oversight/regulation of the marketplace…leading to a failed attempt to destroy Social Security through privatization, environmental degradation, unsafe working conditions and Wall Street firms running wild.
Bill Clinton’s administration was for a woman’s right to choose what she wants for her own body (as per input from medical science), especially during a pregnancy, without government or religious zealot interference…so Bush and Cheney decided to side with the religious zealots and use the government to force American women into submission to the unprovable whims of the religious zealots.
The list goes on and on and on.
Democrats (liberals) are willing to listen to Republicans (conservatives) and weigh the evidence over whatever Republicans (conservatives) are proposing (if sensible, reasonable, yes, but if downright crazy, no)…while Republicans (conservatives) aren’t interested in listening at all to what Democrats (liberals) have in mind. (I keep remembering Bill O’Reilly on Faux News shouting “Shut up. Shut up. Shut up.” at a liberal guest and Dick Cheney telling Sen. Pat Leahy on the Senate floor to “Go F*uck yourself!”).
So, while America was left by Bill Clinton’s administration in a position of strength in January 2001, both domestically and foreign, we are now seeing what eight years of Republican (conservative) contrariness leads to following eight years of Bush and Cheney turning 180 degrees and going off in exactly the opposite direction…with enough (Thank God) American citizens finally realizing that just because Republicans (conservatives) propose something doesn’t necessarily make it either right or sane…or good for our nation as a whole. In fact, the opposite is true.
November 18th, 2008 at 8:04 amRing, Ring
Hello
Oh, Hello Mr. Henry Ford, how are you?
What is that, it is ridiculous to think there will be anyone left to BUY said automaker’s cars if we strip the pay of the workers in the plants.
Ok, duh, right, I forgot, it was YOU who paid those damn better wages to INSURE that the there was a constant demand and capability to BUY the very cars the workers were creating.
What do you say? Management of the corporations cannot buy enough cars to rationalize the need for a factory. They would rather buy the super expensive handmade cars like back in the robber baron times, when less than 1% owned 95% of the wealth.
What say you Mr. Ford, we should invest in ROPE to hang these fcuking scumbags and then drag them from the rear bumper of one of your F150s.
Ok, will do.
Thanks for the call.
November 18th, 2008 at 8:49 amthe Lone Voice of Reason Says:
By the way, GM is going to kill the Volt. Another electric car bites the dust thanks to the big three.
——————
If they are mandated to create marketable vehicles, then they will fail anyway. I will not buy another vehicle that gets less than 30MPG period. The movement is on. Volt, schmolt, if it ain’t GM it will be a smart car or a hybrid, but I aint married to any company, except for a warranty.
If we Nationalized healthcare (which is the NUBMER one cost to the Big3 labor costs) then think of how nimbly they would be able to compete?
November 18th, 2008 at 8:54 amJapan and S. Korea both have the workers get their healthcare through the gov, so the company is less on the hook for that cost. It frees up the worker also to know that their healthcare is NOT part and parcel of the their job, and is protable.
That is what I want.
Sorry should say:
November 18th, 2008 at 8:55 amIf they are NOT mandated to create marketable vehicles, then they will fail anyway.
Ferrarifan, It’s your stupid ‘all or nothing’ argument.
November 18th, 2008 at 8:59 amlook at your own name: does Ferrari produce a mass-market car? They don’t.
You seem to think that because people want electric cars, hybrid cars, that that automatically means they’re not going to produce high-performance toys?
If there’s a market for them, they will.
But these are luxury items–and always were.
College kids buy posters of Corvettes and not corvettes.
There’s nothing wrong with producing luxury items, or having a division that produces luxury items.
THe problem with the automakers is they’re not producing the cars people want–and need. Take care of that, and sure, they can take care of the luxury lust.
But they’re selling Mustangs now and going broke selling them. Those people you say who want them aren’t buying them.
If they switch over to hybrids and electrics, I’m sure you can go to Carroll Shelby and he’ll make you a muscle car that will satisfy you.
But are you going to actually buy the Mustang, or just the poster? And are you going to drive that high-performance vehicle during rush-hour to work, and stop by the grocery store and pick up the dog from the vet’s? Are you going to take joyrides with gas at $7 gallon?
I love beautiful cars. I wish they still made Packards. And Avantis, and for that matter Duesenbergs. The problem is not that the Big 3 are making Mustangs and Corvettes–it’s that they’re not making the cars that the vast majority of Americans need and want. It’s as simple as that. They can make the EV-1 and the Corvette.
But the EV-1 would have saved the company. Not sales of Corvette posters.
Any chance we could restart the old production line and build each conservative repuglycon politician a new Pinto?
November 18th, 2008 at 9:01 amI rented a Ford car in Sweden in 2003. It was manufactured in Europe (I know because I asked the Avis people after turning in the car). During one week driving all over southern and central Sweden my mean gas mileage was 61.3 miles per gallon. From a Ford. When I returned to the States I wrote the Chairman of Ford plus the Michigan delegation and my delegation from Virginia and asked a very simple question “Why could I rent a Ford product in Europe that gets more than twice the gas mileaage of a Ford product manufactured in the United States?” Not surprisingly I didn’t receive a single reply.
November 18th, 2008 at 9:02 amBad businese should be bankrupted, not a handout from taxpayer purse. A bail out of the poorly ran companies with incompetent management in place simply a stupid thing and irresponsible way to spend tax money!
November 18th, 2008 at 9:08 am“The current veteran UAW member at GM today has an average base wage of $28.12 an hour, but the cost of benefits, including pension and future retiree health care costs, nearly triples the cost to GM to $78.21, according to the Center for Automotive Research.
By comparison, new hires will be paid between $14 and $16.23 an hour. And even as they start to accumulate raises tied to seniority, the far less lucrative benefit package will limit GM’s cost for those employees to $25.65 an hour.”
November 18th, 2008 at 9:40 amThe whole reason for Bush refusing welfare for the Big Three is exactly this: to break the UAW. The proof of this is are the very stories this post is commenting on. The right-wing media gets their day’s stories from the White House, and this is their duty.
There is NO mention of how the UAW already has given up wage protection for new hires. If you go to GM today and get a job your wage would be $12/hour, NOT $75!!!
The Big Three are ’struggling’ only as a ploy to break the Union. They intentionally brought this about, exactly as the Bush Administration carefully engineered the global recession.
Curlew’s comment is spot-on. The Big Three sell good cars everywhere on the planet EXCEPT in the USA. Those cars are built by workers making good wages, and have full health coverage, something US workers used to have back in the ’50s and ’60s, when the US was the undisputed global leader is car making (and other manufacturers). Now they intentionally have to take a well designed car for the European market and re-tool it to make it get far less gas mileage!
I want a station wagon that gets at least 30MPG. I can’t get THAT from an American auto maker! So I drive a pre-Ford Volvo. If the Big Three would out out a decent car, I’d gladly buy one.
November 18th, 2008 at 9:43 ampbg,
The EV1 wouldn’t have saved GM. It’s too impractical- two seater only, limited trunk space, the possibility of running out of a charge in the middle of a highway. And yes, I may buy the Mustang. If not that, then a Nissan 370Z.
the brown acid,
and Ferrariman, no one is “Forcing” the big 3 to make efficient cars. Chalk that one up to Adam Smith’s invisible hand. Nobody wants to buy the big-3’s crappy cars anymore.
Nobody’s forcing them to make efficient cars? Um, what’s the CAFE standard for, then?
November 18th, 2008 at 11:08 amThe politics of this are predictable. Conservatives, as we have learned in the last month, have no problem providing financial aid to capital markets and bankers – socialism for wealthy bankers and brokers is fine with them. But, ask them to provide financial aid to save labor markets and they don’t know what you’re talking about.
And, blaming this on labor cost overhead is also predictable, even as they have overlooked the corporate overhead of millions in bonuses and special golden parachutes for corporate snakes. Evidently, we can’t live with $26 an hour, but $10 million bonuses for breaking the law and running a corporation into the ground is acceptable.
Nonsense. We should see this as a way for our society to impose strict regulations on our auto industry. We can force them to do what’s right for our country. It’s either that or another 10 million people out of work which will actually cost us more.
November 18th, 2008 at 11:34 am“the brown acid,
and Ferrariman, no one is “Forcing” the big 3 to make efficient cars. Chalk that one up to Adam Smith’s invisible hand. Nobody wants to buy the big-3’s crappy cars anymore.
Nobody’s forcing them to make efficient cars? Um, what’s the CAFE standard for, then?”
Oh? The CAFE standard is to blame for the multitudes of unsold SUVs and large pickup trucks sitting unsold in Big 3 parking lots? Wow. You really are retarded, aren’t you?
The CAFE standard isn’t what’s tanking the big 3. The big 3 build CRAPPY CARS. Get it through your head son.
November 18th, 2008 at 11:37 amUnions are all that will save us now, whether we belong to them or not, but moreso if we do.
There would never have been an American Dream without organized labor.
November 18th, 2008 at 11:43 amThe big 3 build CRAPPY CARS.
Then why is Ford getting high marks for quality? Either in Consumer Reports or the JD Power rankings, I forget which.
November 18th, 2008 at 11:46 amWe absolutely SHOULD be forcing the auto industry to make more fuel efficient cars. We should help it out with major strings attached. That way, we can save a huge segment of our labor force from being unemployed and get a better auto industry to boot. They need to be forced to provide the same kinds of vehicles to us as they have the Europeans. This incestuous relationship between the corporate boards of the auto industry and the boards of the oil industry needs to be broken. Corporate board relationships between the two industries is the only way to explain the history of the auto industry’s incompetence.
November 18th, 2008 at 11:57 amTom: “There would never have been an American Dream without organized labor.”
So true. Because the “American Dream” was never about getting rich as much as it was about having a good life with a good job and raising a family. The American dream was to afford a nice house, have a pension, take vacations and earn a decent living.
November 18th, 2008 at 12:00 pmThen why is Ford getting high marks for quality? Either in Consumer Reports or the JD Power rankings, I forget which.
If their product is so good, why are the warranties so crappy? Why are they asking for a 25 billion dollar handout. Inquiring minds want to know.
November 18th, 2008 at 12:03 pmbrown acid: “If their product is so good, why are the warranties so crappy?”
Keep in mind that auto companies in Korea and Japan get a LOT more support from their governments. These corporations do not have write a couple thousand dollars into every car because of healthcare either. Their governments already provide universal healthcare. Relieve our businesses and corporations of the burden of providing healthcare insurance and all of our products will be more competitive and we’ll be able to manufacture more of them here which is the key.
November 18th, 2008 at 12:24 pmI’m FROM Detroit, ferrariman. This issue is probably closer to me than anyone else on this forum right now. Everyone in my family (except me, who went into scientific research and water testing) are car people. They have built cars all their lives. Their jobs DEPEND on the big three, and you know what?
Even they will tell you the big-3 build crap cars. And it’s no fault of the floor workers that this is the case. Their jobs DEPEND ON THESE COMPANIES and yet, they’re not rushing to defend the big three with even a fraction of the fervor that you have shown. They acknowledge that the big 3 have made their own bed on this one, and they’re pretty pissed about it.
November 18th, 2008 at 12:25 pmBut, they would rather have jobs in an auto industry than no jobs at all, right Brown Acid? And, people who work for all their suppliers around the country. And, people who sell what they make in those factories.
This is about jobs and manufacturing in our country, not bailing out bankers. And, if we save these companies, we get to lay down the law on them. No more making Opals in Europe but not here, for example.
November 18th, 2008 at 12:58 pmLone Voice of Reason – like a lot of what you say above.
Could one of the conditions for the bailout be that the execs don’t get any bonuses for, say 2004 – 2010 ? After all, bonuses are for good performance and we know how the companies have done in the past few years ?
Could we also cap the execs pay to a certain level ? perhaps at 6 times the average wage for the non-execs ?
November 18th, 2008 at 3:14 pm49erDem Says:
Yes of course they want to keep their jobs. But even the floor workers have been BEGGING the top brass to retool, FOR YEARS. The idiot bean counters at the top didn’t care to listen to them.
November 18th, 2008 at 4:20 pmferrarimanf355 Says:
RUCerious,
But not at the expense of cars that are actually fun to drive. And what’s with the name calling? I thought you progressives were tolerant. I must have run into the wrong group here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The whole if you were really tolerant you would kiss my ass thing really doesnt work for me
November 18th, 2008 at 4:32 pmferrarimanf355 Says:
bob hussein lablah,
If you have to resort to juvenile name calling, then refrain from commenting. Better to make people simply think you’re stupid than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
And the size of my junk is just fine, thanks for asking. Now go take your childish insults somewhere else, like the Hot Rod Magazine forums, and see how long you last…
Damn—I thought you were gone and went to bed before reading your comment last night! So you’re saying I touched a nerve, eh? Is it a tiny little nerve?
November 18th, 2008 at 5:25 pmChildish? Who’s the one who won’t give up his Mustang?
As a somewhat frequent visitor to these threads, I’ve seen more than one lament from you on the potential extinction of the hot-rod posters in college dorm rooms. Grow up, Ferrari Man…
This hot rod dorm poster thing really perplexes me. Not that I ever met a single solitary college student who considered hanging a “hot rod” poster in a dorm, but still I am guessing that if such people exist, they sure as hell are getting no college hook up action…
November 18th, 2008 at 5:39 pm#89: I believe this brings us back to the small wang issue. Ball’s back in your court (so to speak), Ferrari Man.
November 18th, 2008 at 7:19 pm#89, 90:
Sigh, were are the moderators?
November 18th, 2008 at 7:47 pmYou know if we are to cut everyone’s pay, let’s start with Washington first. Cut all their benefits. Keep health care but nothing else. Cut all perks, retirement (let them invest in a 4010, cut traveling unless they use their own car (then pay them by the mile) cut their lunch money (it’s about $500.00 a week) and they eat at the main cafeteria anyway. Cut their office staff. When I write them I just get a general letter back anyhow. Theirs probably a lot more like reading every thing they have to vote on.. I better stop here… feel free to add your own thoughts
November 18th, 2008 at 7:50 pm91:
November 18th, 2008 at 8:44 pmWhy did anyone employ one of the words which can not be keyboarded? Chicks don’t dig “hot rod” posters…
Ferrari Man, here’s a softball: how does your Mustang look while driving past a California wildfire?
November 18th, 2008 at 8:55 pmBy the way, FM, #89 and 90 are perfectly relevant to this thread. Your vanity and related small-wang complex are part of the problem with the Big Three and our consumer culture in general. We don’t need your vanity (although I don’t know why you’re so worried—they’ll continue to make small-wang cars); we need to look at what’s best for the country and the planet.
November 18th, 2008 at 9:09 pmEugene Debs says
Wow, impressive – when all else fails get personal? I thought that was a Republican tactic. So is that how it works? Dissenting opinions MUST be AM radio minions?
Nice. Don’t you have some cats in the yard you need to go torture with a fork or something?
November 18th, 2008 at 9:46 pmI notice that Alabama gets $1.66 from the federal government for every $1.00 it contributes; while Michigan contributes more than it gets back.
Yet the senator from Alabama has the gall to tell the auto industry to go screw itself when it asks for help in dealing with the fallout from Bush’s failed rightwing economic polices that the senator from Alabama helped enable.
We should take all the money we send to these mooches in states like Alabama that have a long history of getting more than they contribute and send it to Detroit instead.
And tell these mooches that they need to restructure their states before they see any extra $. Maybe if their citizens had Unions and made a decent wage they wouldn’t need to mooch.
Call Roger Kerson – PR Dir. UAW @ (313) 926-5000 and point out the above and tell the UAW it needs to get on the offensive regarding this issue.
November 18th, 2008 at 11:25 pmI’m not saying anything else other than have fun with econoboxes like this. The first comment there says it all.
November 18th, 2008 at 11:57 pm#98: I don’t see a problem with the Nissan Cube, though I know nothing about its fuel efficiency or reliability. Nor do I have a problem with the Prius. But perhaps I’m not a myopic small-wanger.
November 19th, 2008 at 12:09 amMusicLover Says:
——————————————————————————–
Eugene Debs says
You dont know what you are talking about music guy and never will as long as you let the Am radio screechmonkeys do your thinking for you.
Wow, impressive – when all else fails get personal? I thought that was a Republican tactic. So is that how it works? Dissenting opinions MUST be AM radio minions?
Nice. Don’t you have some cats in the yard you need to go torture with a fork or something?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No why would I think you are an AM Radio minion? I mean you just regurgitated their argument pretty much word for word. I have read the EXACT same sentiment last year and by sentiment I mean pretty much the exact manifesto right down the line including the unions are sucking the industry dry thing. I am sure you just happened to come up with the EXACT SAME RATIONALE AND WORDING for your objection as the last seven or eight morons indistinguishable from you all on your own. By the way isnt that the shortbus honking for you? Better hurry now those special children shouldnt be kept waiting. Put away your latex girlfriend and go play with the other intellectually challenged kids.
November 19th, 2008 at 1:43 am#99,
::facepalm::
Yoo-hoo, mods, where are you? Make the “report abuse” click useful already and do something already!
November 19th, 2008 at 9:38 amRight, the consumers caused Wall Street to collapse (not greed)..so thats why “we” had to give them 700 billion…but not those auto manufacturer’s who have around three million American (UNION) jobs at stake..the GOP hate unions, hates labor and hates the middle class…..they have spent over 100 years, trying to set up an Ogilarchy…and every time a damn Democratic administration gets elected…they go and try to undo all that hard GOP work…..
November 19th, 2008 at 2:58 pm#101 Ferrari Man,
Seriously? Abuse? By pointing out that fuel-efficient cars are not something to mope over? By pointing out that hot-rod pin-ups are frivolous? Really?
November 19th, 2008 at 3:10 pmI guess if the moderators are going to allow shallow and completely irrelevant posts about hotrod pinups, then they’re going to allow me to make fun of those shallow, completely irrelevant posts.
Now either address the issues at hand or stop whining.