Huckabee Claims Civil Rights Of Gays Are Not Being Violated: They Aren’t Getting Their ‘Skulls Cracked’
Huckabee Claims Civil Rights Of Gays Are Not Being Violated: They Aren’t Getting Their ‘Skulls Cracked’
Today on ABC’s “The View,” former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabe discussed his pride that an African-American has been elected president. When host Joy Behar asked if he feels the same about gay rights, he said that the two were “a different set of rights,” and suggested that the gay rights movement hasn’t suffered enough violence to be a real issue:
HUCKABEE: It’s a different set of rights. People who are homosexuals should have every right in terms of their civil rights, to be employed, to do anything they want. But that’s not really the issue. I know you talked about it and I think you got into it a little bit early on. But when we’re talking about a redefinition of an institution, that’s different than individual civil rights.
BEHAR: Well, segregation was an institution, too, in a way. It was right there on the books.
HUCKABEE: But here is the difference. Bull Connor was hosing people down in the streets of Alabama. John Lewis got his skull cracked on the Selma bridge.
Watch it:
Huckabee is echoing a newly popular conservative trope. Last week, Tony Perkins claimed that gay rights and civil rights are “totally different.” Tara Wall, deputy editorial page editor at the Washington Times, wrote today that “[t]here is no comparison” between blacks’ struggle and gay people’s struggle because “[b]lacks were stoned, hung, and dragged for their constitutional right to ’sit at the table.’ Whites — gay or not — already had a seat at that table.”
To suggest that a civil rights movement must meet some sort of violence threshold is an incredibly dangerous argument — not to mention blind to the serious violence gay people have already suffered. 16.6 percent of all hate crimes reported by the FBI in 2007 “resulted from sexual-orientation bias,” and the number of hate crimes directed against gays and lesbians increased six percent from 2006. More striking, a 2007 study by the University of California, Davis, found that “[n]early four in 10 gay men and about one in eight lesbians and bisexuals in the United States have been the target of violence or a property crime because of their sexual orientation.”
The murders of Matthew Shepherd in 1998 and 15-year-old Lawrence King earlier this year brought renewed public focus to the lethal danger of homophobia. The violence gay activists face will gain more attention in two weeks, when “Milk,” a new feature-length movie about the first openly gay elected official, is released. Harvey Milk struggled for the political rights of gay people — just like civil rights leaders pushed for African-Americans’ political rights — and he was ultimately killed for it.
Huckabee’s lame violence threshold is nothing more than a shoddy attempt to conceal his deep and fundamental homophobia.
Transcript:
HUCKABEE: For us to stand there that day and to see Barack Obama taking the stage, to realize 50 years ago, he couldn’t have served coffee in the White House and now he’ll be the resident of the White House, we have to be happy as Americans.
BEHAR: You’re very passionate about that.
HUCKABEE: I am.
BEHAR: Do you feel that way about gay rights, too?
HUCKABEE: It’s a different set of rights. People who are homosexuals should have every right in terms of their civil rights, to be employed, to do anything they want. But that’s not really the issue. I know you talked about it and I think you got into it a little bit early on. But when we’re talking about a redefinition of an institution, that’s different than individual civil rights. We’re never going to convince each other.
BEHAR: Well, segregation was an institution, too, in a way. it was right there on the books.
HUCKABEE: But here is the difference. Bull Connor was hosing people down in the streets of Alabama. John Lewis got his skull cracked on the Selma bridge.
BEHAR: Gay bashing goes on, too.
HUCKABEE: And there is christian bashing. A lady in california, 69 years old, holding a cross and people come up — violence is wrong no matter who is behind it.
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Tell that to Matthew Shepherd.
November 18th, 2008 at 8:01 pmWhat frightens me most about the bigot Huckabee is I heard some of my friends on the left, when he was running for President, saying he seems like a regular guy, pretty reasonable, nice.
Don’t be fooled left leaning America. These f***ers would march you into a gas chamber if they could.
November 18th, 2008 at 8:08 pmHoly Shit!!!
I think that Rapture shit may be here!!!! If Daryll and bit don’t swing by my window to grab my hand any moment I will be so disappointed…
And on that whole Jonestown anniversity and all..
Wow how wild!!!
November 18th, 2008 at 8:11 pmthe man’s name is huck.
huck huckabee.
*
and he’s a jesus man.
*
November 18th, 2008 at 8:12 pmanniversity?.
November 18th, 2008 at 8:14 pm16.6 percent of all hate crimes reported by the FBI in 2007 “resulted from sexual-orientation bias,” and the number of hate crimes directed against gays and lesbians increased six percent from 2006.
And those are just the ones that are reported. In many cases, these crimes are not even reported, when police talk them out of filing, because these crimes are so low priority for prosecutors.
The evangelicals are pushing hard for reversal of hate crimes’ legislation; editorialising from the pulpit, that merely telling someone that homosexuality is a sin will soon be regarded as a prosecutable hate crime.
November 18th, 2008 at 8:15 pmso a single 69 year old woman who has a cross knocked out of her hand represents an organized effort to deny all Christians their civil rights and is the equivalent of blacks being denied the right to vote, to be educated, to hold public office, to earn equal wages, to share public spaces with whites, to be afforded the same rights as whites under the legal system etc,
BUT
a large group of homosexuals who have just had their civil rights and LEGAL and CONSTITUTIONAL rights taken away from them by an organized, institutionalized effort are not collectively being denied their rights?
Jeezus H Christ!
November 18th, 2008 at 8:25 pmLost in that “aw shucks” demeanor is the heart and policies of a bigot. In many ways that’s worse.
November 18th, 2008 at 8:33 pmMarriage is a civil union in our society, not governed by Biblical law. You can get married in a church without getting a marriage license but you’re not legally married. You can get a marriage license and get married while bungee jumping and you are legally married. Conversely, you don’t get divorced through the church. You need to petition through civil court. These reich-wing Bible thumpers need to come up with some new talking points. Refusing ANYONE the right to marry for ANY reason other than civil law is a civil rights violation.
November 18th, 2008 at 8:36 pmSort of like when conservatives and Bush followers said that torture is not torture unless someone dies from it -or something along those lines.
These people are unapologetically stupid.
November 18th, 2008 at 8:37 pmI am curious to find out how many “sets of rights” exist in Huckabee’s teeny-tiny-little brain.
November 18th, 2008 at 8:38 pmFor someone who reads the Bible an awful lot , which is supposed to lead to “enlightenment” , Gomer Pyle Huckleberry sure is in the dark about a lot of things………
November 18th, 2008 at 8:41 pmHUCKABEE:
Is that anything like the right of an arrogant, ignorant baptist preacher to spew vile, inciteful hatred?
Is that anything like the right of ordinary citizens to tar and feather said dolt?
November 18th, 2008 at 8:44 pmSo in America it’s okay to take away the rights of some citizens as long as the people in power are not cracking the skulls of the citizens whose rights are being stripped?
November 18th, 2008 at 8:48 pmThere must be thousands of stories of horrific gay bashing. And for the Huck to bring up 1 story of a Christian woman being assaulted is insane… absolutely no comparison and what a way to shirt the issue.
Bastard.
November 18th, 2008 at 8:53 pmanti-gay people are really bad people… but at least they’re good religionists.
November 18th, 2008 at 8:58 pmI read EVERY DAY of horrific gay-bashings and murders on sites like Towleroad, that the mainstream media ignores. There was a recent one where an elderly gay couple was literally beaten to death in their home. One of them was in a wheelchair.
Pitting blacks against gays in the “who suffered more” category- this, ladies and gentlemen, is the fresh new strategy of the GOP.
November 18th, 2008 at 9:01 pmOh sorry. I thought you said Peach Governor
November 18th, 2008 at 9:11 pmThere you are sweetie…
November 18th, 2008 at 9:11 pmDamnit TP, when you time warp my jokes you f uck them up
November 18th, 2008 at 9:12 pmRaptureReady Says:
——————————————————————————–
As the people of our congregation would say, “Preach Governor!”
Isn’t that President-elect Huckalame, or did your god lie to you? Must suck always being wrong, or do you get used to it?
November 18th, 2008 at 9:12 pmDaryll, shouldn’t you be getting Tiffany knocked up? If you don’t man up, someone else will…
November 18th, 2008 at 9:24 pmhad enough Says:
And for the Huck to bring up 1 story of a Christian woman being assaulted is insane… absolutely no comparison and what a way to shirt the issue.
______________
One small correction here, if I may?
Didn’t you mean to say, “what a way to BROWNshirt the issue”?
See? Makes more sense, no?
November 18th, 2008 at 9:30 pmOh, BTW, apart from my endless need to be a wise *ss, I find Huckabee’s comments truly offensive on a human basis.
They’re not “gay” rights. They’re human rights, and if homphobic frauds like RR could get past their own latent homosexual tendencies, they’d see that.
November 18th, 2008 at 9:32 pmRaptureReady Says:
As the people of our congregation would say, “Preach Governor!”
As the real prophets of the bible would say, ” Stone Daryll, the false prophet, for claiming GOD said Huckabee would be elected President, then said God changed his mind, it will be McCain”.
November 18th, 2008 at 9:40 pmThe only way someone could talk about “a different set of rights” is if he didn’t think gays were human.
We are talking about “human rights.” It’s the same set of rights for women as it is for men, children, people in all countries, fat, thin, tall, short, smart, stupid, etc.
The only group who has “a different set of rights” are animals. And I for one believe they should have more rights than they currently enjoy.
Doesn’t Huckabee have a gay cousin somewhere who could straighten him out???
November 18th, 2008 at 9:41 pmCastrate the bible thumpers! They are just too good at breeding.
November 18th, 2008 at 9:45 pmMayhaps it is time to mandate that the wingers be forced to read the Constitution before they are allowed to graduate from Jeebus Camp.
November 18th, 2008 at 9:58 pmDoes it seem to anyone else that Daryll’s consistent enthusiasm for anti-gay rhetoric is just a tad over-the-top?
November 18th, 2008 at 10:24 pmSkull cracking seems pretty christian and all. WTF is it with religion and hurting people till they say and do the things that makes you want to stop hurting and interferring with their business?
November 18th, 2008 at 10:48 pmBlack water fountain–civil unions
White water fountain–marriage
November 18th, 2008 at 11:02 pmGetting stoned would probably improve Darryl’s point of view…
November 18th, 2008 at 11:15 pmDarling, you just know he is fabulous.
November 18th, 2008 at 11:16 pmI still don’t see any tangible evidence that God has exclusive residence in our skies. If it is there, I’d like for they to do more than etch laws in stone tablets and send their “son” down every few thousand years.
Daryll…you sure your life isn’t centered around a book of fables? Because even the Vatican had to come full circle with the Earth not being the center of everything stuff.
As for Huckabee, the dumbass is positioning himself to be the king of the fearful lemmings since the GOP has its self-made power void. When the party should come to the center, this fool wants to go as far to the right as he can. I guess he has to have more people commit voting violence against him and his views for him to say, “I sure don’t have very many sheep in my flock…but I don’t see what’s wrong”.
November 18th, 2008 at 11:21 pm______
And the beat goes on Says:
These reich-wing Bible thumpers need to come up with some new talking points. Refusing ANYONE the right to marry for ANY reason other than civil law is a civil rights violation.
November 18th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
______
“I believe that American society can choose to carve out a special place for the union of a man and a woman as the unit of child rearing most common to every culture.”
Barack Obama
November 18th, 2008 at 11:33 pmAnother homophobe speaks and spews forth ……nothing.
November 18th, 2008 at 11:51 pmEven though the right today has many media sources for their propaganda and mind training outlets – many more than they had when the Washington Times started in 1982 – there is Tara Wall of the Washington Times pushing Moon’s homophobia into the mainstream.
One day this country will look back and see how Moon – who wants Korea to be the center of the world – did as James Whelan, the first editor of the WT said they were doing.
http://tinyurl.com/yqqbmz
November 19th, 2008 at 1:01 am
RaptureReady Says:
As oeople with NORMAL IQ’s would say. Bite my bag you ignorant bigot
November 19th, 2008 at 1:13 amupright left Says:
“I believe that American society can choose to carve out a special place for the union of a man and a woman as the unit of child rearing most common to every culture.”
Barack Obama
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yeah, I disagree with him. I doubt it will be the last time.
November 19th, 2008 at 1:15 amHuckabee is a dangerous fruitcake made all the more dangerous by his affable manner and ability to appear sane and reasonable, so I welcome off-the-wall comments like this one that shed light on his inner wackjob. Hopefully he can tie his homophobia in with the stories about roasting squirrels in the popcorn maker.
By 2016, anyone who was homophobic in 2008 will be looked back at the way we now look back at George Wallace and Strom Thurmond. Gay is the new Black – it’s not a question – it’s a fact. The acceptance of gays is an unstoppable wave and those who try to stand in its way will find themselves watching their credibility disappear in the rear view mirror.
November 19th, 2008 at 2:52 amSo if a group of people have to get stomped and bloodied for equal acceptance, how much blood in Huckabee’s Big Gulp would it take to satisfy him and the like?
He just lost his right in the least to rant against violence in movies and video games now. The Huck’ster is promoting violence and saying how much flesh will be needed to to satisfy the demand for equality.
And we all thought Dumbya was going away!
November 19th, 2008 at 3:04 am.
Rosa Parks never had her head bashed in, yet when she was “REQUIRED” to sit elsewhere, it was a gross violation of her civil Rights.
.
November 19th, 2008 at 3:05 am.
N O T I C E:
Up-Chuck-abee defends ChristoFascists and their ability to legislate Religiously based intolerance into our secular lives.
Q U E S T I O N:
Does Up-Chuck-abee think that America is a Democracy that seeks equality for ALL people, or does he see America as a Nation that seeks to Legislate Religiously based intolerance into our secular lives?
F A C T:
Up-Chuck-abee isn’t seeking to “PRESERVE” an institution by eliminating aspects of it that directly erode that institution, is he? Is he seeking to abolish divorce laws in the USA? FACT: Divorce laws allow each marriage to dissolve, sacred or not.
PRESERVE MARRIAGE…
… OUTLAW DIVORCE!!
.
November 19th, 2008 at 3:13 amWhat sickens me is that the so-called ‘religious right’ goes out of their way to pass legislation to enshrine their opinion as the rule of law. Doesn’t matter how many people they alienate, they don’t care if they emotionally scar someone for life by vilifying them, refuse to see any of their actions as being anything other than “right”, no matter how many people get killed for their excesses.
Well, the Bible says “Treat others as you would have them treat you.” Let’s push for a law that states if you get married, then divorced, then married again, you should be put to death. According to the Bible and the words from the mouth of Jesus, divorced people getting remarried is a sin. A sin!
For some reason, asking for equal rights is just plain ‘wrong’ to the so-called ‘religious right’. They should be forced to live by the laws they claim to follow. Although, they truly don’t do so. Even Daryll & Bitbit very carefully parse the verses in the Bible and ignore entire sections that don’t quite align with their prejudices.
And neither of these two ‘upstanding’ gentlemen have voluntered for military serrvice. So much for ‘Love America!’
November 19th, 2008 at 7:10 amHuckabee is completely out of touch with the reality of being openly gay in America. For far too many gays and lesbians have indeed have their skulls cracked and worse – just because they are gay.
I applaud Huckabee’s statement that “People who are homosexuals should have every right in terms of their civil rights, to be employed, to do anything they want.” It is too bad that he can’t go a step further and stand up for our right to marriage equality. The freedom to marry is a civil right, too.
Instead of focusing on the “harm” that same-sex marriage might allegedly cause to the institution of marriage, how about these bigots address the real challenge to marriage: skyrocketing rates of divorce, high rates of adultery/infidelity, the masses of children who suffer the failure of their parents’ marriage, etc.
It is not gays and lesbians who are harming marriage; instead we are strengthening it by upholding its value. Rather it is IRRESPONSIBLE HETEROSEXUAL BEHAVIOR that is to blame for the divorce rate.
Breeders need to clean up their own houses before they accuse same-sex couples of “destroying” marriage.
November 19th, 2008 at 9:09 amWhat do you expect from someone who can look at the wonders of the world, including the Grand Canyon and the Mountains anv Valleys and Oceans and believe the world is only 6000 years old. You are not dealing with a big thinker here.
November 19th, 2008 at 10:01 amJebus. Huck is a gigantic load of hot steaming dogcrap.
November 19th, 2008 at 10:20 amHuckabee is a hateful person. I’m sure the gay people who have been attacked on Capitol Hill in Seattle after coming out of gay clubs will be heartened to hear that the violence against gays is at an acceptable level for Huckabee. The man who was beaten and stabbed with a broken bottle for no reason other than his sexual orientation will sleep easier knowing that violence is not being committed against this minority.
November 19th, 2008 at 10:56 amAlso, gay people do NOT have the right to be employed. In many states firing someone simply because they are gay is perfectly legal. Huckabee is a simple liar. Bastard.
November 19th, 2008 at 10:57 amA “different set of rights”? Governator, where is this “different set of right” codified? How do you discriminate between “civil rights” and the “right to do anything they want” (paraphrase).
November 19th, 2008 at 11:19 amAnd yet if you even so much as say “Happy Holidays” to a Christian, they scream that THEIR rights are being violated!!!
November 19th, 2008 at 11:37 amDemocrat Soldier Says:
.
.
.
According to the Bible and the words from the mouth of Jesus, divorced people getting remarried is a sin. A sin!
For some reason, asking for equal rights is just plain ‘wrong’ to the so-called ‘religious right’. They should be forced to live by the laws they claim to follow. Although, they truly don’t do so. Even Daryll & Bitbit very carefully parse the verses in the Bible and ignore entire sections that don’t quite align with their prejudices.
And neither of these two ‘upstanding’ gentlemen have voluntered for military serrvice. So much for ‘Love America!’
November 19th, 2008 at 7:10 am
Accuracy in posting is not a goal you have is it, DS?
bit is a veteran of the U.S. Army, and he has stated this more than once on TP.
Further, bit agrees that the Bible says that those who divorce and remarry can do so only under very strict, very limited conditions. This does mean that for most people remarrying is a sin. bit believes this is of consequences only to those people who are interested in doing God’s will. For others, who have no concern about God’s will, what the Bible – what Jesus – says about divorce, is irrelevant, as one might expect.
Now. So what?
Homosexuality is a sin according to the Bible, and it is detrimental in many ways to many of its practitioners.
The fact that divorce and remarriage is a sin doesn’t change anything about the fact that homosexuality is a sin.
Christ remarks that the ideal sexual expression is between a man and a woman in a marriage. He says this in Matthew 19. Other forms of sexual expressions are sin.
November 19th, 2008 at 11:41 ambitblt Says:
Democrat Soldier Says:
.
.
.
According to the Bible and the words from the mouth of Jesus, divorced people getting remarried is a sin. A sin!
For some reason, asking for equal rights is just plain ‘wrong’ to the so-called ‘religious right’. They should be forced to live by the laws they claim to follow. Although, they truly don’t do so. Even Daryll & Bitbit very carefully parse the verses in the Bible and ignore entire sections that don’t quite align with their prejudices.
And neither of these two ‘upstanding’ gentlemen have voluntered for military serrvice. So much for ‘Love America!’
November 19th, 2008 at 7:10 am
Accuracy in posting is not a goal you have is it, DS?
bit is a veteran of the U.S. Army, and he has stated this more than once on TP.
Further, bit agrees that the Bible says that those who divorce and remarry can do so only under very strict, very limited conditions. This does mean that for most people remarrying is a sin. bit believes this is of consequences only to those people who are interested in doing God’s will. For others, who have no concern about God’s will, what the Bible – what Jesus – says about divorce, is irrelevant, as one might expect.
Now. So what?
Homosexuality is a sin according to the Bible, and it is detrimental in many ways to many of its practitioners.
The fact that divorce and remarriage is a sin doesn’t change anything about the fact that homosexuality is a sin.
Christ remarks that the ideal sexual expression is between a man and a woman in a marriage. He says this in Matthew 19. Other forms of sexual expressions are sin.
*
this is meandering.
just say what you mean,
ok?
^
November 19th, 2008 at 11:55 am#55 – bitblt Says:
———————————————————-”Accuracy in posting is not a goal you have is it, DS?
bit is a veteran of the U.S. Army, and he has stated this more than once on TP. ”
Accuracy doesn’t seem to be your goal either. You have never posted this fact in a thread to which I’ve posted.
“Christ remarks that the ideal sexual expression is between a man and a woman in a marriage. He says this in Matthew 19. Other forms of sexual expressions are sin.”
Until the people who ‘claim’ to follow the Bible enforce ALL the laws equally, then they are ‘picking and choosing’ only certain laws to enforce. Until these people can explain why they chose Biblical verse A over Biblical verse B then it must be assumed (rightfully) that their prejudices and hate are driving their agenda.
November 19th, 2008 at 12:31 pm#54 – ThomasMc Says:
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“And yet if you even so much as say “Happy Holidays” to a Christian, they scream that THEIR rights are being violated!!!”
November 19th, 2008 at 11:37 am
I usually say “Merry Chrismas AND Happy Holdiays!” after Turkey-Day. One time, I got the response: “I’m a Christian, it’s ‘Merry Christmas’ only!”
I responded with “So am I! Thanks you SO MUCH for telling me about your faith. I’m also gay, so how about I tell you stories about me and my partner so we can BOTH shove our personal lives in each others faces? How does that strike you?”
I was amused to see him turn red, and start to mutter as he walked away. I had to follow up with “Well, anytime you want to shove your personal life in my face I’ll be more than willing to return the favor!”
November 19th, 2008 at 12:36 pmWhy are people refering to the bible??? It was written by people who believed the world is flat. So, today we are fighting over words written over 2000 years ago by people who thought the world was flat. Do you see the insanty in this argument? What was said in the past should stay in the past and what we know today, we should use as a guide to take us to the next level in the advancement of humanity. Did you get the key word???? HUMANITY !!!! Let religion (if you choose to believe)stay within your heart for your OWN personal enjoyment. You are free to believe what you want…you are not free to impose your beliefs onto me.
Peace brothers and sisters for we are all children of HUMANITY!!!
November 19th, 2008 at 2:39 pmNOLIESPLEASE Says:
Why are people refering to the bible??? It was written by people who believed the world is flat. So, today we are fighting over words written over 2000 years ago by people who thought the world was flat. Do you see the insanty in this argument? What was said in the past should stay in the past and what we know today, we should use as a guide to take us to the next level in the advancement of humanity. Did you get the key word???? HUMANITY !!!! Let religion (if you choose to believe)stay within your heart for your OWN personal enjoyment. You are free to believe what you want…you are not free to impose your beliefs onto me.
Peace brothers and sisters for we are all children of HUMANITY!!!
November 19th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
What is your proof that the people who wrote the Bible believed that the earth was flat?
Jesus’ quote in Matthew where He quotes from Genesis is pretty much THE definition of marriage – a man and a woman will be one flesh. This “one flesh” is not a relationship available to two same-same gender people.
This account, from Matthew 19 and Genesis 2, is held by Conservative Christians (CC) to mean that marriage is older than both religion and government. Many CCs hold that marriage is a divine mark on humanity.
Why are people refering to the bible??? It was written by people who believed the world is flat. So, today we are fighting over words written over 2000 years ago by people who thought the world was flat. Do you see the insanty in this argument?
the only insanity that bit sees is two same-same gender people claiming that they can be married. You’ll note that the Bible never makes this claim.
Even if these people actually believed the world was flat, it doesn’t mean they got it wrong on marriage.
What was said in the past should stay in the past and what we know today, we should use as a guide to take us to the next level in the advancement of humanity.
November 19th, 2008 at 3:19 pmAre you talking about same-same gender marriage, so-called, here?
I’ll bet if fat/obese people were being treated badly, he’d worry about ’skulls being bashed in.’ Have you seen his children?
November 19th, 2008 at 5:51 pmI want someone to explain to me how one can use the Bible to argue about whether something should be the law or not.
If two people want to agree to a marriage contract, what business is it of the government as to the sexes of the participants of the contract?
Heterosexual marriages do indeed have an inherent advantage and distinction: the ability to create children. This is enough, it is indeed the magic of marriage. But don’t deny anyone the right to sign a marriage contract based on their sex.
November 20th, 2008 at 12:37 am#60 – bitblt Says:
———————————————————–
“What is your proof that the people who wrote the Bible believed that the earth was flat?”
November 19th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
“take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it (Job 38:12-13)
How could the earth be held by its “edges”? A sphere has no edges. Would the Job author have spoken of “edges” of the earth if he had known the earth was a sphere?
“The earth takes shape like clay under a seal.” (Job 38:14)
This is the same author who spoke of grabbing the earth by its “edges.” If the Job author had known the earth was round, would he have referred to edges which don’t exist, and would he have compared it to clay seals, which are pressed flat?
“[T]he devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them” (Matthew 4:1-12)
Certainly, if the earth were flat, standing atop “an exceedingly high mountain” would allow Jesus to see the whole earth, but there is no mountain tall enough to allow him to see the other side of a spherical earth. At most, one hemisphere would be seen, but not the other.
“The visions of my head as I lay in bed were these: I saw, and behold, a tree in the midst of the earth; and its height was great. The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth.” (Daniel 4:10-11)
The “whole” earth? No matter how tall the tree was, even if it was only a dream, it would not have been visible from the other side of the earth
http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/Flat_Earth.htm
If the many people who wrote the Bible were writing these particular verses allegorically, then who’s to say that the verses you proclaim as “fact” weren’t written allegorically as well?
Just because you ‘claim’ the know the fact of the Bible does not mean that it MUST be applied to everyone, everywhere. I distrust people who ‘claim’ to know the ‘true’ way. Hubris is never admitted to by its practitioners.
By the way, as I was driving home yesterday, I think I do recall that previously you had mentioned that you were a veteran. I have to admit that to me, posting at Think Progress is a hobby, so I fit this activity between busy times at work and don’t always remember details from all posters. I apologize if I disparaged you by my previous claim.
November 20th, 2008 at 6:21 amDespite the fact that I strongly disagree with many of Huckabee’s ethical views, I respect him because his opinions are articulated in an intelligent manner.
He tries, howeverm to crack the foundation of gay rights because he’s speaking on grounds of religious ethics, which often times don’t coincide with logic.
This all basically means that he can make arbitrary statements about human rights using bible as the penultimate source of jurisprudence. Yes I said it.
Evan
November 21st, 2008 at 3:54 pmhttp://www.beyondrace.com
As near as i can tell, most conservatives don’t hate gay people or try to ostracise them in any way although gay people find it perfectly reasonable to hate conservatives for their opinion. you try to make it sound as though anyone who thinks gay marriage is wrong is a bigot. this is wrong in and of itself. I’m against gay marriage for traditional reasons, this does not make me a bigot, it makes me opinionated. The only problem i have with gays and lesbians is that although the public in general has spoken, you would seek to overturn that decision in a court. Elections and props come every two years, try again. the country IS becoming more open to new ideas, So don’t let impatience cast a negative shadow on your agenda, Forcing your opinion on someone else is the best way to get them to resist harder.
November 24th, 2008 at 4:17 amThis is a bunch of crap! Simply put!
November 25th, 2008 at 1:11 amThe thing is Jscott, you do the same thing that you accuse us and gay people of doing…generalizing them into being hateful and bigoted…
There is a difference between anger and hatred…
November 25th, 2008 at 5:45 pmSimply because no federal agency keeps tabs on GLBT violence, most surely not on T violence, does not mean heads are not being cracked. The premise of MR H’s remark is flawed. I give thanks this year for the first time in three years that I was not hospitalized by a beating. Here in Wyoming, the state of Matthew Shepherd, I regularly receive the gift of dead cats or dogs on my porch. The windows of my car are shot out and my bedroom window has a bullet hole in it.
November 27th, 2008 at 8:12 amI’d vote Huckabee in 2012-
November 27th, 2008 at 5:38 pmOn prop 8
The people voted and didn’t want gay marriage. now judges are going to overturn the will of the voters and force gay marriage on a state that did’nt want it. I think by doing this, people will leave the undemocratic party and come back to the GOP.
70…when it comes to equal protection clause under the law, the Constitution trumps the will of the majority anyway…
November 28th, 2008 at 1:17 pmucsbclassics53-
Amendment XIV
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
I don’t see anything that gives them the right to destroy what marriage has been for thousands of years.
November 28th, 2008 at 6:25 pmWhat marriage has been for thousands of years was “destroyed” when fathers stopped buying brides for their sons…
December 1st, 2008 at 10:41 pmbitblt claims:
I don’t see anything about “ideal” there, or in Genesis 2:24. Yeshua was talking about divorce, not about the ideal or only definition of marriage. IMO. YMMV.
Doesn’t say that either. The only sins he mentions are remarrying after a divorce, except for the cause of unfaithfulness, or marrying a divorced woman. Little double standard there, but that’s another story…
“THE”? I think it’s more accurate to say “YOUR”, singular or plural. “Many people’s.” It’s also not many other people’s. Not Massachusetts’ or Connecticuts’. And it doesn’t say in Genesis, or in Yeshua’s comments as reported in Matthew 9, anything more than that it is A definition of marriage. In fact, if you want to get technical about it, it doesn’t even mention a marriage ceremony in Genesis. It just says go and cleave. Some people would call hooking up under those circumstances a sin.
Sure it is. You’re just not willing to admit it. If you’ve never been there, then I submit that you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about, but only going on hearsay.
Guess what? So is homosexual love, on both counts. So are life-long homosexual committed relationships. If you don’t believe that it’s the love between two people who commit their lives to that love that is the “divine mark on humanity,” then I’d say you’re hopelessly lost in the woods.
December 2nd, 2008 at 4:28 pmThis just in from Eric T:
some of them
6.3 million or 52% of
536,000 more voters (4.5% of the voters or 1.5% of the state population)
than did.
There. Mo’ betta.
The will of the people is expressed in the state constitution. The will of the people as expressed in the constitution is that the supreme court guard against the tyranny of the majority. Especially the tyranny of the razor-thin majority.
You wouldn’t be one of those conservatives who talks about Obama’s 53%-47% popular vote victory not really being a landslide, would you?
December 2nd, 2008 at 4:52 pmHere’s another one:
Sounds to me a lot like a commandment to be vegetarians. I mean, unless you want to go picking and choosing which parts you want to obey and which parts you don’t.
December 2nd, 2008 at 5:46 pmHere’s another one:
Rom. 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Sounds to me a lot like…um…perversion. This is not a basis for civil rights. Do we now embrace perversion in our society? Wake up, people. What next, a civil rights movement for child molesters? How about rapists? Where does it stop?
December 4th, 2008 at 9:42 pmI want to say something okay? Look, if the Pilgrims or early settlers from Europe that came here and settled in this country we call America were all “Gay” “Homosexual’s” haveing sex with Men to Men and Woman to Woman…then We WOULDN’T have Populated this Country and We WOULDN’T have Murdered off the Indian’s who were here in the 1st place cause Gay’s and Homosexual activity DOES NOT PRODUCE Offspring (Children)…and it is a Choice made by the Gay or Homosextual…You are NOT born that way…you decide that you want to be that way…and also the Indians would have said,”No wonder the White man has such a pale face”.
December 6th, 2008 at 8:41 amIf you overturn what the majority of the people voted for on one issue…then you have to follow suite and overturn the Presidentual Election too…’cause I know plenty of voters that can’t except that we have a minority President in the White House either…see,thats the vote and ‘hey buddie?” that’s the way it stands…if you dont like it then get out and canvas for the next time the vote comes around…but you can’t overturn what the Majority voted for or you are a poor sport and you need to sit out and think about it for awhile! Cause you mess up the whole process because the Majority Rules! and you can’t have it both way’s…and you have to accept it and work for change in a decent fashion. Or do you want to destroy reality just because you want your way? That will NEVER WORK!!! Get Real!
December 6th, 2008 at 8:55 am#77
Is totally f ucking bizarre and this part begs for evidences
“You are NOT born that way…you decide that you want to be that way”
December 7th, 2008 at 5:12 pmI am a lesbian. I am near tears reading some of these comments posted on this article.
I wish I could see some of you, face-to-face, as you tell me that what I feel inside is somehow a sin in the eyes of our Lord. I believe in a God who loves all His children no matter what. I believe in a God who holds LOVE above all other virtues. I believe in a God who made me this way, to teach others how to love thy neighbor.
A few things I would like to address:
1. I did not choose to like girls. If anyone HAD a choice, why would they choose to be marginalized and hated? I was born this way, and I like who I am.
2. The ability of the majority population (white Christian males) to pit one minority group (blacks) against another (gays) by making us fight over who has it worse only further perpetuates what the majority is trying to achieve. They make us fight against each other for the scrapes of the civil rights—no—human rights they think we deserve. They pit us against each other because they know that if we learn to work with each other we can achieve every goal we set for ourselves. Racism is tied into sexism, which is tied into homophobia. All forms of oppression are linked. We must work to end ALL oppression, together!
3. By saying that because Prop 8 passed, the majority of voters have spoken is ignoring some basic facts and logical progressions.
First of all, California is not the majority of the population of America.
Second, only 77.5% of Californians voted in the 2008 election. (http://vote.sos.ca.gov/Returns/status.htm) 52.3% of those who voted, voted yes on Prop 8. (http://vote.sos.ca.gov/Returns/props/59.htm) Therefore, only 40.5% of Californians voted to eliminate the rights of same-sex couples to marry. That is by no means a majority!
Third, the wording of the proposition was confusing. Some people who voted may have thought that if they voted yes, that means they were supporting same-sex marriage, or if they voted no, they were eliminating same-sex marriage.
Forth, this is by no means the end of the same-sex marriage movement. The GLBT community is already arguing that having voters vote on eliminating the rights of one group of people is against the California constitution.
4. If all the pilgrims and early settlers were all gay or lesbian, then I think the population of Europe would have already been effected, and it’s likely there would be no Europe for the pilgrims to come from anyway.
5. Stop referencing the Bible. There are a lot of things written in that book, and most passages are taken out of context or used only to advance a specific agenda. For instance, the whole book of Leviticus is said to be written by Moses as told to him by God. These are the laws the Hebrew people must follow to be viewed by God as worthy. There are hundreds of laws to follow, how to butcher your animals, what to wear, what to eat, how to worship, and yes, how to procreate. And all of the laws listed have consequences to them. Leviticus 11 is all about which animals you shall and shall not eat. And it specifically says pork is unclean and you shouldn’t eat it. So should we then outlaw anyone from eating pork? Or from playing football with a pig-skin ball? I mean, the Bible says we shouldn’t do it!
You cannot pick and choose the Bible passages you follow. That is hypocritical.
6. Tell me please, how will my marriage to another woman in ANY WAY affect your marriage?
7. There are 515 ways that laws in Minnesota (where I live) discriminate against same-sex couples. 515!!! And those are only state laws! (www.project515.org)
Please, let me reap the benefits of sharing my life with another person, whoever I choose it to be.
I respect people who respect me. If you disagree with me, that’s fine. If you believe that because I love women instead of men, I am somehow sinning, that’s fine. You’ll pray for me, I’ll pray for you. But please, know that by advocating for state sanctioned discrimination on the basis of a few Bible passages, you are disrespecting me. I am a human being with thoughts and feelings and values of my own. Give me what I deserve and then leave me alone, I’ll leave you alone too.
Thank you for reading.
~Mark 12:28-31
p.s. I used good grammar and no derogatory language in writing this post. I hope you will do the same in responding to it.
December 7th, 2008 at 9:04 pmI must have missed the point at which Arkansas had become a bastion of civil liberties, in general, giving Huckabee any sort of moral authority from which to make this grandiose pronouncement. As a former Mississippian, I can testify as to the utter lack of impact it has when any Jim Crow governor crawls out from under the gubernatorial rock to pontificate like this. Go home and continue to not eat, Mike.
December 8th, 2008 at 6:21 amI realize this doesn’t add much, but that dude is really queer in every possible way
December 8th, 2008 at 5:31 pmnot that Joy Behar isn’t.
December 8th, 2008 at 5:34 pmCivil Rights are rights that do not belong to citizens, this is the legal definition of Civil Rights. There are then those Rights reserved for Citizens of the United States. Because Citizens are those who vote – 200 years ago people protected by Civil Rights were women, blacks, etc. And those protections were widely varied.
The so-called Civil Rights movement was designed to equalize the rights shared by citizens, which were supposed to be equal anyway because by then blacks, women and etc. had been made Citizens.
So in no way did Gays have a right to marry 200 years ago, 100 years ago, nor should they have the right to marry today; because Marriage is only between a man and a woman and the definition of gay marriage is an affront to Christianity and is expressly prohibited by the Bible.
Blacks were denied civil rights, it was recognized since the US was founded.
Gays have never been “denied” anything, they are not recognized as a group needing protection or equal treatment in some institutions.
December 9th, 2008 at 5:37 pmThe problem I have with liberals quoting or refuting the Bible is they forget that Jesus Christ came to fulfill all laws. Meaning had Jesus Christ not established any laws for Christendom, there would be no laws from God period.
Jesus Christ established the following:
The Ten Commandments stay.
Sexual perversion of any kind, from adultery to homosexuality is a sin.
All foods are good to eat when given in thanks (the origins of Thanksgiving).
And a few others without getting into too much detail.
So when the Bible is said to be quoted “biased” for some agenda, you’re wrong, Leviticus no longer applied in the world after Christ…so what ever Leviticus said is only reference to the coming of Christ. It is not the law. Otherwise we’d all be in sin for not wearing a beard. And yatta yatta.
Christ for instance ended the circumcision laws, it’s good either way now…
So the Bible is a VERY consistent source of law if you want it to be…and many Christians do. Just as our founding fathers did and James Madison and Thomas Jefferson are both well quoted as supporting the Bible as the moral backbone of law in the US.
December 9th, 2008 at 5:41 pmThe problem I have is that others think that just because they believe some weird shit for which there is no real evidences that the rest of us are supposed to. Please don’t tell me that Jesus did this or that or thought this or that. I don’t care as I don’t believe what you do and am mystified as how you can claim to know what the hell did or did not happen. It is sort of annoying. Believe what you wish but stop acting like it is proven factual
December 9th, 2008 at 8:46 pmTo ID_Neon,
Your arguments don’t make sense. I’m confused, please enumerate on some questions or comments I have listed here: (I have numbered them, so it would be easier for you to logically respond)
“Civil Rights are rights that do not belong to citizens, this is the legal definition of Civil Rights. There are then those Rights reserved for Citizens of the United States. Because Citizens are those who vote – 200 years ago people protected by Civil Rights were women, blacks, etc. And those protections were widely varied.”
1. Where did you find this “legal definition” of civil rights? I’m curious, because as far as I have been able to research, there is no legal definition. Please present me with a legitimist website, preferably one from the U.S. Government, (i.e. one that ends in .gov) And also, exactly how were women and blacks protected 200 years ago? I believe both were considered property of white, Christian men.
“The so-called Civil Rights movement was designed to equalize the rights shared by citizens, which were supposed to be equal anyway because by then blacks, women and etc. had been made Citizens.”
2. The Civil Rights movement was, yes, designed to equalize the rights shared by citizens, but the rights were not and still are not equal, nor will they ever be until all laws are repealed that, whether deliberately or not, infringe on the rights of all Americans. This includes the 515 laws that discriminate against same-sex couples in the state of Minnesota. (http://www.project515.org)
“So in no way did Gays have a right to marry 200 years ago, 100 years ago, nor should they have the right to marry today; because Marriage is only between a man and a woman and the definition of gay marriage is an affront to Christianity and is expressly prohibited by the Bible.”
3. Let’s take the word “marriage” totally out of the equation. What do we have? A legal contract between two consenting adults (traditionally male and female, yes) that bind them together and give them benefits including the ability to make life and death decisions in emergency medical matters. Traditionally, this union was one of economic benefit, joining one family to another. Did you know that in Jesus’ time, women were sold to men into marriage by their father? Is that really the biblical tradition you want to keep referencing?
“Blacks were denied civil rights, it was recognized since the US was founded.”
4. That sentence doesn’t make any sense… There’s no point to it. But here is mine, never leave “US” standing alone. It is not a noun. Use U.S.A instead. It should also be written with periods: U.S. It is used an abbreviation, standing for the name of our great nation, please use it properly.
“Gays have never been “denied” anything, they are not recognized as a group needing protection or equal treatment in some institutions.”
5. Speaking as a “gay”, we have been denied so much, it doesn’t matter if we are recognized as a group needing protection or equal treatment or not. If I may be frank, you are not gay. You have no idea what it is like to be gay. You have no idea what it is like to be harassed while walking down the street, holding hands with your partner. You have no idea what it feels like, fighting for something as basic as spousal privilege, not being compelled to testify against your spouse in court.
We need legal protection because people like you are not willing to grant us such protections. We are human beings, and we deserve the same rights as other human beings, regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation or gender identity.
“The problem I have with liberals quoting or refuting the Bible is they forget that Jesus Christ came to fulfill all laws. Meaning had Jesus Christ not established any laws for Christendom, there would be no laws from God period.
Jesus Christ established the following:
The Ten Commandments stay.
Sexual perversion of any kind, from adultery to homosexuality is a sin.
All foods are good to eat when given in thanks (the origins of Thanksgiving).
And a few others without getting into too much detail.
So when the Bible is said to be quoted “biased” for some agenda, you’re wrong, Leviticus no longer applied in the world after Christ…so what ever Leviticus said is only reference to the coming of Christ. It is not the law. Otherwise we’d all be in sin for not wearing a beard. And yatta yatta.
Christ for instance ended the circumcision laws, it’s good either way now…
So the Bible is a VERY consistent source of law if you want it to be…and many Christians do. Just as our founding fathers did and James Madison and Thomas Jefferson are both well quoted as supporting the Bible as the moral backbone of law in the US”
6. The bible verse I quoted earlier (Mark 12: 28-31), the one I’m assuming you are getting mad at me fore quoting, goes as follows: “28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?” 29″The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[f] 31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[g]There is no commandment greater than these.”
If Jesus said that the second greatest commandment, behind Love the Lord our God, is Love your neighbor as yourself, would you say that you love me as you love yourself? If so, how can you possibly deny me benefits of the love of my partner that you yourself receive for your partner? If you deny me my rightful benefits, then you should deny yourself the same. It is only fair, if you love me as you love yourself. If you do not love me as yourself, then you are not following one of Jesus’ commandments.
I love you as I love myself; I would grant you equal rights in a heart beat, because I believe every human being deserves equal rights.
7. Also, the bible is not the basis of the laws of America. Granted the founders were Christians, there is no passage in the Constitution that makes any reference to the bible. If you find one, please show me it, along with the bible passages it references. And I would really love to read those quotes from Jefferson and Madison saying that the bible is the moral backbone of law in America.
You should really start referencing your sources, if you are going to be so direct in using them in your writing.
I hope you respond in kind and quickly. I am really curious to hear what you have to say.
~Sara
December 9th, 2008 at 9:54 pm“Christendom”????
December 9th, 2008 at 10:13 pm1. The book “The Bill of Rights” by Reed Akhil Amar a professor of Constitutional Law at Yale describes “Civil Rights” from “Rights of a Citizen” very well…understanding the history of “civil rights” in the US which by no means began in the civil rights movement but became an issue as soon as the US was founded as a Republic without Universal Suffrage. So with that understanding it’s easy to tell that today the term “civil rights” is being abused to suggest that such a term protects various identities, it does not. Civil Rights is to protect those people in the United States with most of the Rights given to citizens of the United States. For instance, we have to protect foreigners visiting the US, we have to protect with equal rights, immigrants.
But citizens do not have an advantage of gay marriage, gays are not abused or denied “civil rights”, gays have every right of a citizen in fact since most gays ARE citizens.
The civil rights movement was intended to give those rights of citizens to those citizens disenfranchised by racial laws in the South.
2. The above actually answers number 2 as well…rights are not being denied because it is not a right denied to others. Heterosexuals cannot marry the same sex EITHER…if for instance blacks AND whites could not vote in the south, their rights are not unequally denied, now whether or not they should vote is the question. So let’s move to #3.
3. Should gays marry? No, by definition it just doesn’t make sense. Marriage should not be recognized because marriage is a religiously defined institution, civil partnerships, however, is something else. I am not so much against the sin of legal unions, as I am about changing the definition of what a marriage is. It could be said that the problem is caused by the entanglement of the privileges of marriages. Since heterosexuals whom marry have tax and other advantages.
Well Biblically there’s a lot of reason for that; but Biblically there’s not a lot of support for laws being specifically Christian. While they should be (Biblically speaking) they don’t have to be; as long as Christians adhere to their faith.
So there’s wiggle room if Gays didn’t target the actual institution of marriage, which is a religious institution as separate from “legal marriages” which are only given by a decree of the state and a license. While for the benefits a religious marriage needs the state’s license…a church in no way needs the state to marry someone.
4. This is interesting because officially the US is now “US” without the periods. I agree with you – I like the “U.S.” but this just isn’t officially correct anymore. Just like it is no longer grammatically correct to say “the 1990’s”. It is now “the 1990s” or any other decade…I don’t know who came up with these changes but my education has semi-ingrained them into me. What I was meaning is that blacks did not suddenly be realized to be mistreated, that was always known, and it was always known that as slaves they were denied civil rights they should have as other non-citizens, and they were denied those same rights even after being defacto citizens by the 14th Amendment. Gays do not share this history of understanding, until the early 1900s no one would have argued they were being oppressed as a homosexual. It was Oscar Wilde who started this whole “counter cultural” mess.
5. I do know (maybe to your shock) plenty of gays, one of my greatest childhood friends has been fairly openly gay since middle school…and certainly high school. I think it is a product of nurture, not his genetics, and we have our disagreements on how the gay culture should be approached. My work’s former boss is gay and is also very against gay marriages and is probably one of the most conservative people I know. I don’t know what causes this diversity but I prefer the gay who simply is a respectable but quieter member of society.
As opposed to the gay who is wearing weird short shorts and shirts and all flamboyant and having parades and stuff.
I am sickened by how much sexuality is brought to light anyway…sexuality should be mute in public and stay within the confines of marriage or deep relationships. Pomiscuity is wrong and destructive, and the hyper-sex public sphere is just annoying, and ruining our minds…and creating these problems to begin with.
If gays were gay at home, and heteros were hetero at home as opposed to everyone trying to have sex on TV and the dance floor and in movies…we’d not be so bothered by the issues and maybe would have more reasonable solutions.
6. Regarding love thy neighbor the Bible explains that in several ways and one of the ways Christ portrays it is to realize that we are all “one people” as opposed to many tribes, and many countries, and nations…but regardless I suppose you could say I love you as my neighbor (I’m not the best Christian when it comes to love, I had blasphemed the holy spirit for a while and have those scars even still after my being “Born Again”).
The best I can do is simply be apathetic towards you; someday that’ll improve I’m sure of it but as a Christian the most important aspect of things is “Near and Clear”. And I do have a lot of dust in my own closets needing cleaning out before I go around “loving my neighbor” which more refers to Evangelism than it does to simply respect. Though it refers to both.
7. I agree Constitutionally there is no instruction of Christianity as the foundation of the Republic, but the Founding Fathers certainly intended that; not just Christianity but Protestantism. The Revolutionary War wasn’t about taxes, it wasn’t about “liberty” those were catchy phrases and such. What it was about to American elites was “federalism” (they were resisting the centralization of the British Empire which would happen after the war), and they were resisting the inevitable sending of an Anglican Bishop to rule over all the American Colonies.
Americans did not want a single religion; especially the Anglican Church, to be established.
That is where most of the “separation” clause comes from.
They didn’t intend the country to be secular and certainly not so sinful as it is today. Character was important to George Washington especially, he had 101 rules to Character and made Character the most important part of West Point.
The maintenance of Character today is pretty bad, except among Evangelicals. Studies show Evangelicals to be the least abusive, the most faithful and the least likely to divorce. They drink less, they hold down jobs longer etc. etc.
It doesn’t mean there’s one perfect demographic group certainly not along ethnic lines.
But there’s a break down in Character in the United States that would have appalled the Founding Fathers and they would have, without a doubt, blamed it on the secularization of the United States.
Without that secularization gay marriage wouldn’t even be a question; so I’m less concerned with preventing gay marriage than I am about getting out and evangelizing and church planting.
December 10th, 2008 at 12:11 amTo Dbadass: Christianity, the Bible is extremely rational. I think it’s funny that Atheists think they are using “reason” and “logic” to justify their Atheism.
If you ever actually read the Bible you may find it hard to disprove, not because it talks about the unprovable but because of what it talks about that is irrefutable.
For instance: Why did the Pharisees (the religious leaders in Israel back then) not just expose Jesus Christ as a hoax? They had done so with ‘Miracle Workers’ for the last 300 years at the time, there had not been “miracles” in the Holy Land for that long until Jesus Christ.
Other Miracle workers were exposed as hoaxes and are recorded as such not just in the Bible but in contemporary historical documents by Titus and by Josephus, the latter attested to Christ’s existence and miracles.
The Pharisees rather tried to blaspheme the holy spirit saying it was the Devil’s work in Christ. Why didn’t they just expose him as a hoax to the masses?
Why didn’t they pull Jesus Christ up on the Temple Mount and gather a huge crowd of Jews and say “ok Christ, prove to us you can heal” and expose him as a hoax?
The question is of course rhetorical, the Bible is rational, it doesn’t prove anything, it only eliminates doubt. That is what allows you to have faith.
Because we have free will, God cannot reveal truth to you or you would have no free will. We must be in the dark, and have faith to “get it” which is the message of the Gospel.
Now you can complain I’m shoving religion down your throat but what I’m really doing is preaching you the Gospel, and now that you’ve heard it you should probably explore it; because God will not forgive you anymore of your ignorance. Your salvation now is dependent upon your coming to Christ, to accepting him into your heart and letting the Holy Spirit guide you and believe me there is a Holy Spirit.
Remember I had turned from God for 14 years, half of those I was a proclaimed Atheist, I have since accepted the Holy Spirit into my heart and believe me there is a Holy Spirit.
It is like a drug, it can be described no other way, and like a drug, you want all your friends to be doing it too…and that goes back to “love thy neighbor” and how it refers to Evangelism.
God Bless!
And to the gays here remember, sins are pardonable, if you accept the Holy Spirit into your heart, truly, it will guide you too, and if you are not guided to be heterosexual it’s not like you’re going to Hell for a sin, you’re doing your best as God made you to be righteous.
December 10th, 2008 at 12:20 amYou continue to miss the point that I don’t give a shit. I can in fact refute that flaming shubbery and snake talk and two of everything fit on a boat. Preach you gospel to somebody else. I am all set and fear not the wraith of tyour god.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:40 pmThe writers of the Bible think that the earth is square, according to Job 40, Daniel 4 and Matthew 4? Seriously, if inertia didn’t exist, we would get swept off the Earth, due to the eccentricity and acceleration of the Earth’s orbit. Which is, by the way, caused by the Daystar, aka, the Sun. http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/our_solar_system/planets_table.html
King Nebuchadnezzar had the dream. The whole civilized world probably knew him. Context?
Matthew. http://space.alglobus.net/Basics/whyImages/earthFromSpace.gif
Why can’t the mountain be in outer space? Wormholes. What do they teach them at these schools?
I apologize for my odd sense of humor.
December 11th, 2008 at 9:28 pmWe don’t grumble loudly over some things more than others, except out of ignorance, I hope. Not hate, I hope. We’re all human; you’re assuming all or a majority of opponents of gay marriage are about hate, and just about everyone isn’t taking note of that Bible verse that says that our fight isn’t with our fellow humans, but against powers and principalities. Us guys don’t have to fight, let’s just reason calmly and try not to step on people’s toes or take offense. :)
December 11th, 2008 at 9:52 pmDear Sara,
Please, don’t see anything I say as an attack. In all honesty and humility, I do not mean to give you offense. If I sound, in any manner hateful, in a place where it would not be appropriate, please assume the best, as I have attempted to do for you. Sometimes I sound dumb or forgetful. You present an awesome case, and you really did it very nicely. I hope the fact that we are on opposite sides doesn’t really affect your opinion of me. Warning: I am an eccentric, possessing an odd (possibly insulting sounding) sense of humor. Sometimes, it pops right out of my mouth (or off my keyboard) and I don’t even notice. Please don’t read any offense into my writings. I don’t want to offend you, or sound normal in any way. I apologize in advance for any offense you take note of that I didn’t.
1. I am a lesbian. I am near tears reading some of these comments posted on this article.
I wish I could see some of you, face-to-face, as you tell me that what I feel inside is somehow a sin in the eyes of our Lord. I believe in a God who loves all His children no matter what. I believe in a God who holds LOVE above all other virtues. I believe in a God who made me this way, to teach others how to love thy neighbor.
I used to think like a lesbian. I believe that a person’s emotions can be influenced by their surroundings. I believe that Love is the greatest of all, but I also believe that Lord God weeps at a love that hurts the one it touches—hasn’t anyone ever hurt a dearest friend or a parent or another close person or even the lover, when or after they came out? I believe that love doesn’t seek its own.
A few things I would like to address:
1. I did not choose to like girls. If anyone HAD a choice, why would they choose to be marginalized and hated? I was born this way, and I like who I am.
So, will you tell me how you figured out that you like girls? I’m sorry if I offend. I only want to know so that I can understand. You see, I had a choice. I had a choice between breaking some of my dearest friends’ hearts, and getting over what caused a certain depression of mine by waiting and fighting it out. I would have been even more depressed, if I had hurt my non-biological-but-I-don’t-care about-that-anyway sister. I didn’t choose to think those thoughts, but I did choose to fight them. For my dearest friend, who I viewed as a sibling long before I thought of her in a very specific, depressing fashion. I didn’t want to hurt her, and I have had violent tendencies. I knew that if I surrendered fully to my thoughts, she would be in danger. I chose to be my sister’s keeper.
2. The ability of the majority population (white Christian males) to pit one minority group (blacks) against another (gays) by making us fight over who has it worse only further perpetuates what the majority is trying to achieve. They make us fight against each other for the scrapes of the civil rights—no—human rights they think we deserve. They pit us against each other because they know that if we learn to work with each other we can achieve every goal we set for ourselves. Racism is tied into sexism, which is tied into homophobia. All forms of oppression are linked. We must work to end ALL oppression, together!
That was a nice build up. If we can agree not to yell, to reason out, to not take offense, to not be forceful, and to think as well as seriously consider before we voice any opinion, then we should be able to get along and make more serious progress. If we the people (me and you, for example) can agree to do this, we can get along. Also, hypothetically, we really can’t try to get someone on our side, unless we first get them to agree with us, or else they have already had reason to agree.
3. By saying that because Prop 8 passed, the majority of voters have spoken is ignoring some basic facts and logical progressions.
First of all, California is not the majority of the population of America.
Second, only 77.5% of Californians voted in the 2008 election. (http://vote.sos.ca.gov/Returns/status.htm) 52.3% of those who voted, voted yes on Prop 8. (http://vote.sos.ca.gov/Returns/props/59.htm) Therefore, only 40.5% of Californians voted to eliminate the rights of same-sex couples to marry. That is by no means a majority!
Third, the wording of the proposition was confusing. Some people who voted may have thought that if they voted yes, that means they were supporting same-sex marriage, or if they voted no, they were eliminating same-sex marriage.
Forth, this is by no means the end of the same-sex marriage movement. The GLBT community is already arguing that having voters vote on eliminating the rights of one group of people is against the California constitution.
Congrats to you, I actually haven’t seen that many people actually do their homework! :) *Shaky smile* I do hope your people aren’t going to try to silence us.
4. If all the pilgrims and early settlers were all gay or lesbian, then I think the population of Europe would have already been effected, and it’s likely there would be no Europe for the pilgrims to come from anyway.
:S *lopsided grin* We might actually be able to get along; you use your brain. :D
5. Stop referencing the Bible. There are a lot of things written in that book, and most passages are taken out of context or used only to advance a specific agenda. For instance, the whole book of Leviticus is said to be written by Moses as told to him by God. These are the laws the Hebrew people must follow to be viewed by God as worthy. There are hundreds of laws to follow, how to butcher your animals, what to wear, what to eat, how to worship, and yes, how to procreate. And all of the laws listed have consequences to them. Leviticus 11 is all about which animals you shall and shall not eat. And it specifically says pork is unclean and you shouldn’t eat it. So should we then outlaw anyone from eating pork? Or from playing football with a pig-skin ball? I mean, the Bible says we shouldn’t do it!
You cannot pick and choose the Bible passages you follow. That is hypocritical.
It’s completely understandable you guys hate those verses in Leviticus. You guys are totally overloaded with ‘em. The Bible does say, however, that the new covenant is better than the old. (Heb. 8) About the Hypocrasy, aren’t we allowed forgetfulness and humanity? Please try to see things from all angles.
Please note: If Jesus said that the second greatest commandment, behind Love the Lord our God, is Love your neighbor as yourself, would you say that you love me as you love yourself? If so, how can you possibly deny me benefits of the love of my partner that you yourself receive for your partner? If you deny me my rightful benefits, then you should deny yourself the same. It is only fair, if you love me as you love yourself. If you do not love me as yourself, then you are not following one of Jesus’ commandments.
Well, please let me ask you some questions. What if your girlfriend got an STD? With another woman? Would you kick her out? Would you give your all for her? Would you find her an outside apartment and pay her medical bills? Would you keep her? If you love her to the greatest level possible, you ought to be able to lay down your life for her. Please do what’s right.
6. Tell me please, how will my marriage to another woman in ANY WAY affect your marriage?
It doesn’t have to. Just, would you please try not to silence us with pink angels and hate crimes/speech laws? Please? It makes me sad, that a lot of people that happen to be in your grouping claim tolerance, and then hate on us. We should both have equal rights, even if we do just want to say, “Love your Enemies.”
7. There are 515 ways that laws in Minnesota (where I live) discriminate against same-sex couples. 515!!! And those are only state laws! (www.project515.org)
Please, let me reap the benefits of sharing my life with another person, whoever I choose it to be.
I respect people who respect me. If you disagree with me, that’s fine. If you believe that because I love women instead of men, I am somehow sinning, that’s fine. You’ll pray for me, I’ll pray for you. But please, know that by advocating for state sanctioned discrimination on the basis of a few Bible passages, you are disrespecting me. I am a human being with thoughts and feelings and values of my own. Give me what I deserve and then leave me alone, I’ll leave you alone too.
Thank you for reading.
~Mark 12:28-31
p.s. I used good grammar and no derogatory language in writing this post. I hope you will do the same in responding to it.
I liked your verses. Was my grammar good enough? I really do hope that you take into account that people want to be heard. Please, let us hear you, and then allow us to be heard. That is the only decent way to get along. I don’t want any one to suffer in silence. Everybody, you included, only suffers when free and open speech is prohibited. I live in a house, where I have to basically agree, keep my mouth shut, or respond appropriately, or be verbally pounded. It’s not fun. No one should stifle someone’s tongue, not even their own.
December 12th, 2008 at 12:43 amoh, please, why does marriage even get discussed by government? why does abortion get discussed by government? why is our privacy invaded like this? why does Mike Huckabee have anything to do with the definition of marriage in our entire society? it makes no sense.
December 12th, 2008 at 7:49 pmYour privacy is attacked? How about our individual rights to own a freaking license plate accustomed to how we want it? What about our rights to pray in school, our rights to worship God? You obviously don’t “get it” so you should probably just leave…you’re the Tyrants, not the Christians.
You’re the ones who want everyone else to do as you want…
December 13th, 2008 at 5:56 pmmy rights to slaughter goats…
December 14th, 2008 at 9:50 pmYou liberals are so hateful. Do you read the things you post on here? You should be ashamed of yourselves!
You are all about peace and love until you encounter somebody that doesn’t agree with you. Then it’s all about vile hatred.
December 15th, 2008 at 12:09 amThat’s everybody. Most want peace, but some of us have short Fuses.
December 15th, 2008 at 6:18 am#98 – CTodd Says:
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“You liberals are so hateful. Do you read the things you post on here? You should be ashamed of yourselves!
You are all about peace and love until you encounter somebody that doesn’t agree with you. Then it’s all about vile hatred.”
December 15th, 2008 at 12:09 am
Says the person who’s obviously never visited a right-whiner web-site where the invective and hate flows freely without any attempt to look in the direction of “peace” or “love” . . .
December 16th, 2008 at 2:27 pmAmazing.
December 16th, 2008 at 3:44 pmGays are not being bashed in the head so their civil rights are not being violated, but then when examples, such as Matthew Shepard are pointed out to them, the response is, well Christians are getting harassed as well. Are their rights violated too? So the logic is what exactly? That Jesus said we’d know the wolves in sheep’s clothing by the way they spoke? The simple truth is that Christ asks us to love and not to judge. Our secular response should come from that. Truth is simple, love and expect to be loved, it’s direct, it’s honest and it is what Christ asked us to do. If you have to talk in circles then I think it exposes how corrupt your interpretation of what Jesus’ live meant, Mike Huckabee needs to be “born again”. Maybe this time it will actually take.
If Christ only asked us to “love not judge” then why’d he say “pull out the plank from your eye SO THAT YOU MIGHT REMOVE THE SPECK FROM HIS!”
Jesus said, judge others but do not be a hypocrite in doing so. I swear; liberal Christians are not Christians at all, it’s like they never read the Bible.
December 16th, 2008 at 6:50 pmThose who claimed to know what a fellow named Jesus did or did not say about anything strike me as sort of odd. Unless these folks are really really old, I think they may have a real problem with their primary sources
December 17th, 2008 at 7:17 amSeriously, DBA, I think that anybody can say anything they want to. But also seriously, I’m choosing to suscribe, not only to something I’ve been taught, but also to something that is tactical. What happens when you say something to hurt people like me? ID Neon Just Blew up at Leftist Christian. I think he’s losing his temper at all this stuff being heaped on him. Are you on ID Neon’s side? Yes, I know, I’m supposed to be on ID Neon’s side, but, ID, “Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But, I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.” Matthew 5:44-45.” I know you’re going to pick on me, DBA. Why are you trying to change the subject? Seriously, If people heep scorn and hatred, won’t they get more of the same? Take the gay/lesbian-people who call themselves Christlike circle. We should just have much, much, much reason and patience in a disagreement. Please, Please consider before you speak! Patience won’t stop all disagreement, but the ones who disagree will have to try. Thanks.
December 18th, 2008 at 2:21 amHuh?
December 19th, 2008 at 12:36 amokay, first of all, the only real civil rights issue with gays is the whole issue of marriage. Not if they can get married, but if the states will recognize it as legal. The only thing that impedes on their rights is the fact that thier marriage might not be considered legal. On the other hand, blacks literally had their rights stripped away, they weren’t allowed to do things. They weren’t allowed to sit at certian tables in restaraunts, sit in certain seats on a bus, vote. To compare Gay-rights to the civil-rights of African American’s is absurd. REGARDLESS of the violence that Mr. Huckabee spoke about in his interview (which, documented or un-documented, African American’s have suffered more of), the LGBT community has not had nearly the same amout of rights impeded on as african american’s have. I think it’s crazy, not to mention a manipulative tactic of the LGBT community to make people feel sorry for them. Look, I’m not for or against gays, let them do what they want to do, but as afforemntioned(that means “mentioned before”, for those of you who are not educated, which seems like the majority) it is in no way a fair comparison. Oh, and, please, before you comment, actually research what you are talking about, the majority of you sound like incompetent idiots.
December 20th, 2008 at 5:42 pmneither for nor against but full of words… why bother with so many words unless you harbor your own agenda…
December 24th, 2008 at 9:31 pmhow can gay peopel decide they are gay, and then decide they are a seperate group of people???? if i go out in the street and decide to bark and chase cars, can i decide i am a new species?
December 30th, 2008 at 1:15 ami mean i would be acting like something im not..
December 30th, 2008 at 1:17 am” someone Says:
how can gay peopel decide they are gay, and then decide they are a seperate group of people???? if i go out in the street and decide to bark and chase cars, can i decide i am a new species?
someone Says:
i mean i would be acting like something im not..”
Where do you get off with your assumption that gay people “Decide” they are gay? Since you are not gay how do you have even a clue as to the origin of ones sexuality? Were you presented with a choice as to what your sexuality should be? When? At what age did you “Decide” to be straight? You are under the impression that all gays are acting like something they are not.
December 30th, 2008 at 3:03 amGet a grip…Please!
well if you wish to play in the street, feel free. In the mean time hooked on phonics might need to be tossed in favor of regular spelling… Species arise from geographic and reproductive isolation…
December 30th, 2008 at 2:29 pm——————————————————————————–
ID_Neon Says:
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If Christ only asked us to “love not judge” then why’d he say “pull out the plank from your eye SO THAT YOU MIGHT REMOVE THE SPECK FROM HIS!”
Jesus said, judge others but do not be a hypocrite in doing so. I swear; liberal Christians are not Christians at all, it’s like they never read the Bible.
ID_NEON: Were you referring to yourself as a hypocrite with your quote? You see, true hypocrites are self-righteous hence, the neocons :-)
December 30th, 2008 at 5:36 pmI believe that the church should not be forced to marry gay people. The churches have their own set of doctrines/beliefs, and they should be respected.
But also, this must also be quid pro quo. Gay marriages should be allowed except in religious establishments, or any religion who do not condone such practice.
And please, warriors of God, do not instill your religious beliefs to everybody. We respect your beliefs, but you must also respect those who do not share your beliefs.
As for the idiotic dittoheads, the issue here is gay marriage, as in marriage between two consenting adults. We are not promoting marriage between a minor and an adult, or marriage between a dog and a human being, or even polygamy. I say you take your case against the mormons about polygamy.
Remember, freedom of religion and Freedom from religion. One more thought for the intellectually challenged. We are not taking away your rights to pray or worship. You can worship anybody, anything, any beast you want, but do not force your religion in public schools.
I also recall an idiot saying that “Liberals have taken away GOD from our public schools”. Give me a break! Could such person be such an idiot? How could anybody possibly take away GOD from any place? It just doesn’t make any sense. I thought GOD is everywhere? Even in the deep jungles of Borneo God is ever present, am I not right?
Even while taking a dump God is still with you, is he not? Even when self righteous christian hypocrites consumate their love (i.e. sex), God is still present. So tell me, how could anybody take God away from any place? Sigh… such stupidity is beyond me.
December 30th, 2008 at 6:52 pmDemocrat Soldier:
Please forgive CTodd. He doesn’t know any better. What more can you expect from a right-wing, neocon, self-righteous hypocrites?
Just look at Newtie boy. Poses himself to be a good christian but he went to his ailing wife’s hospital to have her sign the divorce papers. This is when Newtie was still married and he was having an affair with a younger woman.
You see, when these so called self righteous pukingly hypocrites committ the same immoral acts, they turn the other cheek. In fact, they made Newtie their hero. But when liberals committ such immoral acts, they are the devils.
I just love these neocons. Their hypocrisy is overwhelming :-)
December 30th, 2008 at 7:04 pmSHUT THE UP!! Gandhi once said, “I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians.” Personally, I don’t really like many types of humans. Seriously, too many fundies hate on Gay people, and make ‘em hate on us Fundies and other Christian types. Too many people hate on us eccentric types, and earn our hate. People are generally wierded out when they meet me, and vice versa. I wish that I could afford to steriotype the whole world as being idiotic, and only some as showing potential. But I can’t. I got involved with you guys didn’t I? and as far as Iv’e observed, you’ll either ignore me or yell at me. Therefore, I am most likely being foolish. *gives an honest chuckle. humanfundie has been reading shadow crystal mage, which is probably another mistake, lol. why do I care, you guys prob. hate me anyway….*
December 31st, 2008 at 4:52 am